User talk:Peter Isotalo

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Battle of Lepanto[edit]

Hello Peter
You probably remember Daufer and his major edit on Battle of Lepanto's infobox, which we both did not agree with. Both you and I left him messages on the battle's talk page. He did not respond. Shall we continue to take it up against him?
Regards, King Philip V of Spain (talk) 15:19, 19 August 2013 (UTC)


There are two WP:RFCs at WP:FOUR. The first is to conflate issues so as to keep people from expressing meaningful opinions. The second, by me, is claimed to be less than neutral by proponents of the first. Please look at the second one, which I think is much better.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:19, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Wikiproject Food and Drink Newsletter - September 2013[edit]


It would be appreciated if you joined in the conversation occurring at WT:Food regarding the layout and presentation of the project's main page. Northamerica1000(talk) 03:33, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Swedish translation[edit]

Hello. I was on Wikipedia:Translators available and notice that you were on the list for Swedish to English translators and wondered if you could translate sv:Gustav av Sachsen-Engern-Westfalen as Gustavus of Saxe-Lauenburg or Gustav of Saxe-Lauenburg? Thank you.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 18:47, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

There you go. What a tragic character...
Peter Isotalo 14:19, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. Would you mind creating the short one for his son?--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 16:38, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
No, not really. I don't mind the occasional favor, but I don't care much for stubby biographies on obscure nobility of minimal notability. You don't need a Swedish-speaking human translation for this kind of text. Google translations are of high enough quality for you to convert it into proper English.[2]
Good luck.
Peter Isotalo 17:56, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikiproject Food and Drink Newsletter - October 2013[edit]

Nomination of Pimps Up, Ho's Down for deletion[edit]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Pimps Up, Ho's Down is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pimps Up, Ho's Down until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Sven Manguard Wha? 21:12, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Books and Bytes: The Wikipedia Library Newsletter[edit]

Books and Bytes

Volume 1, Issue 1, October 2013

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by The Interior (talk · contribs), Ocaasi (talk · contribs)

Greetings Wikipedia Library members! Welcome to the inaugural edition of Books and Bytes, TWL’s monthly newsletter. We're sending you the first edition of this opt-in newsletter, because you signed up, or applied for a free research account: HighBeam, Credo, Questia, JSTOR, or Cochrane. To receive future updates of Books and Bytes, please add your name to the subscriber's list. There's lots of news this month for the Wikipedia Library, including new accounts, upcoming events, and new ways to get involved...

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Your page move of Blackwater fire of 1937[edit]

How about the next time you decide to move the title of a Featured Article to a new title you first have the courtesy to discuss it on the article talkpage...I have moved it back to the original title.--MONGO 23:15, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

No, thanks. I prefer not to spend time and talkpage space on easily reverted formalities, regardless of article status. If you feel the need for one, though, be my guest.
Peter Isotalo 14:12, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Library Survey[edit]

As a subscriber to one of The Wikipedia Library's programs, we'd like to hear your thoughts about future donations and project activities in this brief survey. Thanks and cheers, Ocaasi t | c 15:00, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Have replied to your comment[edit]

On my talk page. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:57, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

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Hello, you mispronounced the first syllable. The first syllable should be pronounced [ly˥˩] with a rounded [i]. (talk) 23:12, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Moreover, you pronounced it with the third tone, which is not correct.-- (talk) 19:53, 28 February 2014 (UTC)


Pete, I wonder if it is possible for you to put some kind of This user have left the Swedish wiki - at least for a good while template - I really don't want to do that myself. I was thinking about all this now for a while, and I came to conclusion that it is best so. As it is now nothing constructive happened, people are just angry and upset and nothing really keeps me there anymore. One needs to feel joy and satisfaction to be able to do all that work, which is as you know, not paid; totally voluntary and nobody can really force you to do it. It is essentially about freedom, self-determination and independence to chose to contribute to Wikipedia or not. And I just don’t feel unrestricted now. I feel my free choice and sovereignty was somewhat constrained. Maybe I really don't fit in there. I am afraid if I do this myself some guy will go and take it off. It is no good when one needs to be afraid not to be able to edit your own talk page for fear that someone will come and interfere. Hafspajen (talk) 20:25, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
It's sad to hear that you feel this way, really. I'm upset about this situation myself and I've tried to convince others of the problem, but to no avail. I've been in similar disputes on Swedish Wikipedia, and I can certainly understand if you'd rather not deal with all the drama and gratuitous proscriptions. I wish that Swedish Wikipedia could be more tolerant and accepting of harmless individualism and the good-hearted trams that we all need sometimes.
Regarding your request, really doesn't have a template for semi-retirement, but what would you say about the following suggestion?
Peter Isotalo 23:51, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Sunset at Huntington Beach.jpg

Den här användaren har lämnat svenska Wikipedia på obestämd tid.

Like that picture! Thanks. Hafspajen (talk) 23:56, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Barnstar for you![edit]

The Blondin award of good balance
You have been presented with the prestigious Blondin Award for walking the tightrope with
grace amongst the interwikis. The image represents the amazing Charles Blondin carrying
Jimbo Wales safely across the Niagara Falls. Bishonen | talk 09:57, 16 March 2014 (UTC).
  • Every now and then I pop over to sv-wiki to see what's happening and I am struck by the complete lack of a talk page culture. Even the serious questions I asked or things I proposed simply don't get responded to--I'm not just talking about that request I made to get PaleCloudedWhite's block lifted. Over here, not responding to a question like that is considered seriously rude, and it easily sinks an RfA. I have not checked in on y'all's ANI; if it were to come with a "Translate" button I might have. In the meantime I've been translating Oland articles, which has been quite fun. All the best, and vi sas, Drmies (talk) 21:51, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
  • The only person who never ansvers my questions is Jonnybody, he just ignores me. But everybody is really responding to any questions or comments . Hafspajen (talk) 21:57, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Drmies, people do reply, but the discussion climate is indeed one of's weakest aspects. RfAs are in my view often pointless. Votes seem more like routine approvals of long-time colleagues and ppl will vote for almost anyone except the notoriously unstable or outright trolls. If you raise doubts about someone's suitability due to poor dispute resolution, harsh use of admin tools in the past, or obvious lack of civility, nominees simply refuse to discuss such things, if they even reply at all. Supporters will also either criticize you for criticizing in the first place or downplay the whole thing by saying that it's "surely in the past" or whatever. Or ignore you as they would a rambling, senile relative at a family dinner. Peter Isotalo 23:25, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Hey, I resemble that last remark. Drmies (talk) 00:22, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Sorry... Didn't know family dinners was such a touchy subject for you. ^_^ Peter Isotalo 07:08, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
  • With three kids, none of whom listen to me? Fo shizzle. I do love Oland. I wish I could go back and ride my bike around again. I think I read that the bridge is now closed for cyclists, which is a shame: I vividly remember the view from Kalmar--it seemed like a wall, impossible to ride over, but it wasn't so bad. And I remember the ride up 136, and the sun and the flowers; it was beautiful. I've asked Hafspajen already to find me a job in Lund or Stockholm but he's useless--doesn't anyone there need a highly trained English professor with a Dutch/Southern accent? I promise I'll never speak badly about the sv-wiki again. Drmies (talk) 16:50, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
And I told you that you probably wouldn't like the taxes and the wages. Uncle Burt in USA needed to work like three years for what here you have to work for like 20 years. Hafspajen (talk) 17:20, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Your Uncle Burt clearly is not a measly college professor with kids. Drmies (talk) 19:47, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Uncle has 2 boys, several houses, cars, wifes and businessman. (Well not at the same time). Hafspajen (talk) 20:13, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Nice to see you're inspired to work on Öland, btw. I actually kinda wrote about it a while back. Peter Isotalo 23:32, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Peter, I'm getting the feeling that maybe Battle of Møn should be renamed to Battle of Femern or Fehmarn: there are basically no hits in Google Books for the Mon title. What does your library say? Drmies (talk) 02:11, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
  • All my sources are in Swedish or Danish. Check out sv:slaget vid Møn (1677) for a more comprehensive article. Why Femern/Fehmarn, though? Peter Isotalo 12:09, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
Hey I think you are right. Do you want to fix it or shall I? I thought the two would be the same article. Oh and I'm jealous of your Blondin award ... looks very cool. Victuallers (talk) 22:48, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
I dunno if I really deserved it, though. Most of what I did was to furiously scold unfriendly Swedish admins. But, yes, cool it is.
Peter Isotalo 23:00, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
You got yourself some new friends, that is not so bad, eh? Hafspajen (talk) 00:01, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
Rodent friendship.
Very true. I'll be the beaver groundhog to your chipmunk!
Peter Isotalo 21:56, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
Face-smile.svgHafspajen (talk) 23:26, 23 March 2014 (UTC)


Club garb of John the Blessed, a.k.a. "Big Cap" (*wink wink*).

Peter, do you speak Russian? Can you understand what this text say + and will you translate what this picture is about? The file text is in Russian... Could this be Basil Fool for Christ's chains? (crazy man...) Hafspajen (talk) 14:21, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Of all the languages Peter speaks in his annoying polyglot way, I think Russian may actually be the first. Bishonen | talk 14:29, 29 March 2014 (UTC).

Well, that is good. Those crazy chains could be the chains Basil wore, while running around naked. He used to break in to wealthy peoples shops and steal food and give it the poor. He also was quarrelling with Ivan the Terrible, because Basil thought he was too bloody cruel (and so he was). Not exactly a life insurance those times. The Tzar would probably killed any other man criticizing him, but he left Basil alone. A popular thing this, in Russia, called Foolishness for Christ. The Saint Basil's Cathedral is named after him. Hafspajen (talk) 14:41, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Yes, quite so, a sort of. Face-smile.svg Hafspajen (talk) 16:45, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Purportedly men in kalpaks, actually the Coneheads in disguise.
Russian bears
I speak very imperfect Russian. It was a second language until my family moved back to Sweden permanently in 1990. But I can make out a lot. Especially with Google Translate. Here's what I'm getting:
"The supposed crown, chain cross, and belt of Saint John, also called 'The Big Cap'". The last word is колпак (kalpak. It can also refer to klobuk, a clerical hat but according to Russian Wikipedia, may also refers to other headgear, including a fez or as a word in фригийский колпак ("frygian cap"). It's also part of the name of a type of mushroom.
Peter Isotalo 17:20, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Thank you Peter for the translation. You translated, St John? not Basil? I ask because this picture was in the category St Basil ( St Vasilij- that would be in Russian) Translated Basil.. in English... sv:Vasilijkatedralen is named after him.Hafspajen (talk) 17:26, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Bishy, you are hopelessly sacrilegious.. coneheads? Face-smile.svg Hafspajen (talk) 17:42, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Coneheads are from "France". Click on the link, man. Bishonen | talk 17:59, 29 March 2014 (UTC).
Clicked, Bishy. Hafspajen (talk) 18:09, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Well. Basil is called blessed too. Hafspajen (talk) 17:52, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Иоанну Блаженному, "Ioannu Blazhennomu". John the Blessed (in accusative or whatever; Russian has plenty of grammar).
Bish, if you don't behave, I'll tell uncle Putin.
Peter Isotalo 17:49, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Is there an article about the Russian saint John the Blessed ? Hafspajen (talk) 17:55, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Here Blessed John of Moscow the Fool-For-Christ, found him. Hafspajen (talk) 18:10, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Seems to be Blessed John of Moscow the Fool-For-Christ. I found it by searching for Большой Колпак, "Big Cap". There's a pic similar to the one here in the Russian article.
Btw, it looks awfully like something out of Hellraiser or some German S/M club. They could just as well called him "John-of-poor-taste".
Peter Isotalo 18:14, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Oh, and please don't you dare write "Tzar" again. It's "Tsar", dammit!
Peter Isotalo 18:17, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Tsar Tsar TSar. Were not exactly into fashion, those guys, can't be helped.Hafspajen (talk) 18:20, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Saw your edit on Kitsch. You saw how it looks now. See here, see this diff.[5]. I think it would be really time to do something about this. That article was stripped for the most weird reasons. Can't find any serious problems with it - (maybe copywio? don't know)- but surely this article was quite alright. I mean technically the definition is correct. Hafspajen (talk) 19:05, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
"No page numbers" and too much synthesis, basically. Haven't read through in detail, but it seems like removing it all was a bit high-handed. And, frankly, a tad lazy. I mean, it's not a BLP. There's not going to be a Wikipedia kitsch essay controversy.
Peter Isotalo 19:19, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Yes. Now I know that it will be a lot of job to make that article work, and I am not sure you can do it (or anyone else), but since you were working with long, well written articles like that Middle age food article, maybe you have som ideas about what to do next. There is not even a note on the article talk page anymore, about what happened. Hafspajen (talk) 20:26, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Here's the discussion. They did announce it at least, but no one seems to have taken any interest in saving it. I believe User:Brianshapiro is the one who wrote most of the original text. Maybe he's interested in getting back at least some of it.
I could keep this on the backburner right now, but I'm going to force myself not to take on any major projects for now. I have a peer review of Kronan (ship) with the intent of going for FA-status and several GA-nominations of older ship-related articles. And then there's... ugh... galley (with several, dinky subpages).
Peter Isotalo 08:39, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, this happens when things get deleted and not there any more. Not even the most fierce editors will want to work with it any more. This is why deleting big parts of articles is totally wrong. Hafspajen (talk) 10:58, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Women in...[edit]

That tweak is absolutely fine by me. Thanks for a very helpful review.--SabreBD (talk) 21:17, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Battle of Öland[edit]

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Battle of Öland you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. Time2wait.svg This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Tomobe03 -- Tomobe03 (talk) 09:10, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Peter Isotalo thanked me for my edit...[edit]

… on S. A. Andrée's Arctic Balloon Expedition of 1897. Thank you. Ha, are you going to import those quaint-spelling original quotes to sv? The Runeberg version of Örnen har landat is a real find, isn't it? Not searchable, unless by somebody cleverer than me, but a wonderful table of contents. (When I saw the thanks ping, I thought at first you might have thanked me for this edit.:-)) Bishonen | talk 18:18, 17 April 2014 (UTC).

Just nice to see you looking over your previous highlights. But then again: "Vädret härrligt. Humöret utmärkt." Unwarranted late-19th-century optimism is the best kind of optimism.
Btw, I recalled how much I enjoyed translating Swedish emigration to the United States. I liked the quotes so much that I went to SUB, borrowed Barton and actually looked up the original Swedish quotes in the SOU Emigrationsutredningen. Especially "the hour of freedom struck". Which, of course was carted off by some stickler [6] to sv:Emigrationsutredningen. Huh?! All that gratuitous "trimming" never ceases to amaze me. But it is kinda fun that ppl keep trying to plaster cn-tags on the lead regarding the statements about how shitty Sweden was for the working class in the 19th century. Without having read the whole article, of course.
Never would've tagged you as a sludge metal fan, btw.
Peter Isotalo 19:00, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
Speaking of colorful quotes, care for some hundsfottar?
Peter Isotalo 19:07, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
Ha! Bishzilla's masterpiece, her one and only article,[7] has been translated into Swedish! I don't know why I didn't realise it was bound to be, but anyway, she'll be so proud!
He, the hundsfottar are new to me, but I know I've seen the verb, hundsfottera, somewhere. Selma Lagerlöf, perhaps. Bishonen | talk 19:27, 17 April 2014 (UTC).

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Your GA nomination of Battle of Öland[edit]

The article Battle of Öland you nominated as a good article has been placed on hold Symbol wait.svg. The article is close to meeting the good article criteria, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needing to be addressed. If these are fixed within 7 days, the article will pass; otherwise it may fail. See Talk:Battle of Öland for things which need to be addressed. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Tomobe03 -- Tomobe03 (talk) 12:50, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Grattis, PETER!!! HafspajenYou surelly fix the small clarifications (talk) 12:58, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. :-) Would you care for a hundsfott as well? I hear they're even tastier than örfilar!
Peter Isotalo 18:11, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
Peter, where have you put your good fait today, man? Hafspajen (talk) 19:00, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
Hey, it's a pastry!
Peter Isotalo 19:12, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
Pastry? What kind of pastry? Dogfootcookie? Hafspajen (talk) 19:16, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
I haven't the faintest. Örfil is a kind of Finnish kanelbulle, but I haven't been able to find any specification of hundsfottar. Or why they'd be named after dog's parts...
Peter Isotalo 19:37, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
This is a logical jump. Hafspajen (talk) 19:45, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Battle of Öland[edit]

The article Battle of Öland you nominated as a good article has passed Symbol support vote.svg; see Talk:Battle of Öland for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can nominate it to appear in Did you know. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Tomobe03 -- Tomobe03 (talk) 20:41, 19 April 2014 (UTC)


Balloons huey.jpg A no Motive Barnstar
No message... stop.. a dog for you ...stop...hope you will like it...stop... Hafspajen (talk) 19:49, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Thank you. Stop. Woof. Stop.
Peter Isotalo 20:10, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Voff, voff...stop.Hafspajen (talk) 20:21, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
You mean... (Google search) Hafspajen (talk) 14:35, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
Don't fall in, li'l mouse!
Exactly. Too cute for comfort! Moist or not...
Peter Isotalo 15:11, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

File:"Mighty Mouse" (7714707486).jpg? Hafspajen (talk) 15:22, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Now there's a stunning filly if I ever saw one! The horse isn't half bad either.
Peter Isotalo 15:33, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
Animal time. Hafspajen (talk) 15:45, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

[8]Hafspajen (talk) 19:04, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/American football/archive3[edit]

Hey, I just wanted to inform you I have expanded the culture section even further to incorporate your suggestions. If you have the time, I would really appreciate it if you could look over the new additions and give you opinion on them so I can work to improve this article even further. Thanks for your time! :) Toa Nidhiki05 00:57, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

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May 2014[edit]

Stop icon

Your recent editing history at Swedish empire shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

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Vad nu då[edit]

Peter vad är det som händer? Jag utgår ifrån att du borde känna till svensk historia så jag tror nog att du har nog rätt. Men vad är det som händer? Kan inte ni starta ett samtal? Hafspajen (talk) 20:28, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Äsch, jag tror bara det är lite missförstånd och hetsighet p.g.a. av alla tidigare svenskar som säger "NÄ JAG KÄNNER FAKTISKT INTE IGEN DEN HÄR TERMEN". Det får väl bli några rundor av diskussion för att förklara att "empire" inte kan tolkas bokstavligt.
Fast jag måste säga att jag nästan skulle vilja örfila den jeppe som fick för sig att översätta "stormaktstiden" till en så bombastiskt fjantterm.
Peter Isotalo 20:33, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Uhg, jag tror nog det är bäst att ta de där rundorna. De kan faktiskt blockere er båda om någon ljushuvud sätter igång och anmäler er, snälla. Hafspajen (talk) 20:36, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
Du får gärna återställa till Den Rätta Versionen så får vi helt enkelt gå igenom vad som är vad. :-)
Peter Isotalo 20:38, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
Menar du att jag ska återställa till den tidigare, inte det som är just nu? Hafspajen (talk) 20:43, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
Jepp. Jag kan vara rätt hispig över stabila versioner själv, så jag kan väl vara generös i det här fallet. Och så behöver inte DeCausa bli upprörd över att vi tekniskt sett inte etablerar stabilt konsensus. Nog lättare att diskutera om det inte är tandagnisslan över vad som står i artikeln Just Nu.
Peter Isotalo 20:46, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
Tja, iväg med dig. Hafspajen (talk) 20:48, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Apologies for my over reaction. I thought you were trying to bull doze your changes through. I've tried to explain on the article talk page that I think there is a difference in treatment here between swedish and English-language historiography. DeCausa (talk) 21:14, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
    • No problem. Talk it is. Peter Isotalo 21:37, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Javanese script[edit]

Hi Peter. I'm currently rewriting the Javanese script article from scratch, following its failed gan. I was wondering if you would be so kind to Peer review it, considering you expertise in linguistics. Thank you in advance, Alteaven (talk) 13:48, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. I'm going to address these problems one by one. I've already expanded the lead article, explained briefly what sanskrit and kawi are, improved some of the prose, and deleted characteristic section. How is it? I don't think the history section could be any longer, but i'll try to find some information. Also i'd like to ask:
  • The font is available as a webfont in Wikipedia, so I thought that it is fine for tables of aksara and sandhangan. Pasangan however, is indeed not properly rendered. Should only the pasangan table use image or all the tables?
  • Should tables with information (such as in sandhangan and punctuation) be deleted altogether? I thought that it is the most efficient way of showing the shape of the letters with their usage.
Regards, Alteaven (talk) 23:46, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Help for peer review[edit]

Hi Peter Isotalo. I have left an article in peer review and kindly ask for your views how to improve it: Vanajan Autotehdas. It doesn't really match the scope you have described your core specialty although the article tells about a historical company and there is also a narrow link to Soviet history. I am asking for your help as your profile is closest to the subject. Cheers, Gwafton (talk) 19:59, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Your oppinion[edit]

Peter, will du commentera på User:Yngvadottirs diskussionssida? Det är någonting om socknar. Hafspajen (talk) 23:59, 24 May 2014 (UTC)


In spite of our disagreements about language, I wanted to let you know that I appreciate the work that you do and the wonderful articles you have developed. --John (talk) 00:37, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

I appreciate the compliment. And the copyediting.
Peter Isotalo 09:46, 1 June 2014 (UTC)


This is deeply petty, to no, [9] nominating an image for deletion because I reverted your changes as not improving the article. You didn't even ask, or attempt any sort of discussion. WP:DICK WCMemail 15:52, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

I've replied at the deletion discussion.
Regarding the notes, you should really look up Help:Footnotes. There's no support in WP:MOS for having using both "notes" and "footnotes" in the same article. In the context of Wikipedia, they're perfect synonyms (though we technically don't have footnotes, only endnotes).
Peter Isotalo 16:22, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Don't lecture me and certainly don't accuse me of creating conflict, you made no attempt to use the talk page, you just steamed in and went for the nuclear option. Please stay of my talk page in future. WCMemail 05:03, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
I see you reacted similarly[10][11] to other perfectly legitimate complaints. A lot of users take main page content very seriously, so just take it at face value and stick to the factual issues.
Peter Isotalo 06:20, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Funny, he tag bombed the article and slapped a bogus WP:OR accusation without making any attempt to use talk. The discussion in WT:DYK concluded his "comments" didn't have merit. But trawling through my contributions to find some mud to sling, way to go for NOT creating conflict. You're welcome to the WP:LASTWORD. Goodbye, its not been pleasant. You have a nice day. WCMemail 06:41, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Ah, you mean as in actively looking up Kronan (ship) to make a slightly misguided "you too!"-edit?[12] You're trying a bit too hard to make imagined slights real.
Peter Isotalo 07:33, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Pinedo Image[edit]

I believe I understood your message here as withdrawing the nomination. Were you? If not, please accept my apology and feel free to revert this closure and this removal. If asked you may cite this edit as my permission to do so. Kahastok talk 21:44, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

FA congratulations[edit]

Just a quick note to congratulate you on the promotion of Kronan (ship) to FA status recently. If you would like to see this (or any other FA) appear as "Today's featured article" soon (either on a particular date or on any available date), please nominate it at the requests page. If you'd like to see an FA appear on a particular date in the next year or so, please add it to the "pending" list. In the absence of a request, the article may end up being picked at any time (although with about 1,305 articles waiting their turn at present, there's no telling how long – or short! – the wait might be). If you'd got any TFA-related questions or problems, please let me know. BencherliteTalk 22:49, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Main Page appearance: Kronan (ship)[edit]

This is a note to let the main editors of Kronan (ship) know that the article will be appearing as today's featured article on June 23, 2014. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. If you prefer that the article appear as TFA on a different date, or not at present, please ask Bencherlite (talk · contribs). You can view the TFA blurb at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/June 23, 2014. If it needs tweaking, or if it needs rewording to match improvements to the article between now and its main page appearance, please edit it, following the instructions at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests/instructions. The blurb as it stands now is below:


Kronan was the flagship of the Swedish navy in the Baltic Sea in the 1670s. When built, she was one of the largest seagoing vessels in the world. After four years of service, the ship foundered in rough weather at the Battle of Öland on 1 June 1676, with the loss of about 800 men (including the navy's acting supreme commander Lorentz Creutz and other senior officers), over 100 guns, and large quantities of silver and gold coin. This was a hard blow for Sweden during the Scanian War (1675–79), as besides being the largest and most heavily armed ship in the Swedish navy, Kronan had been an important status symbol for the monarchy of the young Charles XI. The inexperienced Creutz has been blamed by many historians for the sinking of Kronan, although recent research points to Sweden's general lack of a well-developed naval organization and officer corps at the time. Most of her guns were salvaged in the 1680s, but eventually the wreck fell into obscurity before its exact position was rediscovered in 1980. Yearly diving operations have since surveyed and excavated the site, and many of the artifacts recovered have been put on display at the Kalmar County Museum. (Full article...)

You (and your talk-page stalkers) may also be interested to hear that there have been some changes at the TFA requests page recently. Nominators no longer need to calculate how many "points" an article has, the instructions have been simplified, and there's a new nomination system using templates based on those used for DYK suggestions. Please consider nominating another article, or commenting on an existing nomination, and leaving some feedback on your experience. Thank you. UcuchaBot (talk) 00:01, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Yep, having left you a congratulatory message inviting you to nominate the article for TFA, I decided to choose it anyway... BencherliteTalk 00:10, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Alrighty then. TFA whenever is fine with me. 1 June is the only appropriate anniversary, but we just missed that, so thank you very much. And I like the blurb! :-)
Peter Isotalo 05:20, 10 June 2014 (UTC)


Cornflower blue Yogo sapphire.jpg

ships, language and cuisine in history
Thank you, Peter, for using your advanced language skills for quality articles on history, such as Kronan, Swedish language and Medieval cuisine, for fighting vandalism and raising understanding for the Swedish Wikipedia, - you are an awesome Wikipedian!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:57, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you sooo much, Gerda. Really warms my heart. ^_^
Peter Isotalo 13:28, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Hey, great!!! Hafspajen (talk) 13:31, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

A pie[edit]

Now where did I put that pie. A pie that made me think of you. The first time I was reading of this kind of pies, it was in your article, Middle age cuisine with filling made of of meat, fruits and nuts....

A pie , filling looks like it consists of meat, fruits and nuts

Hafspajen (talk) 13:42, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Looks like little people to me. :-D Best pie ever! ^_^
Peter Isotalo 06:30, 2 July 2014 (UTC)


G'day Peter, congratulations on your first MILHIST A-Class article, Battle of Öland. Well done on (hopefully) the first of many! Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 12:55, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

And many thanks to you for helping out!
Peter Isotalo 06:30, 2 July 2014 (UTC)


Hej, om du jobbar på Lidingö, skulle du vilja ta några bra bilder på Carl Milles sculpturer? Eller kanske be museet att ge oss några ...? De där bilder vi har är inte de bästa... Hafspajen (talk) 12:31, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Det låter inte omöjligt. Jag hade tänkt att ta med cameran för att phota en lotterilott de har här som är från gustavianisk tid. Då kan ju ta en runda på Millesgården samma dag.
Jag återkommer om/när det blivit resultat.
Peter Isotalo 13:04, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
Håller tummarna ... och tänk på bakgrunden. Låt inte turisterna stoppa dit sina fötter... och andra delar av sig själv. Face-smile.svg Hafspajen (talk) 13:22, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Udema[edit]

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Udema you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. Time2wait.svg This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Anotherclown -- Anotherclown (talk) 21:21, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Original Barnstar Hires.png The Original Barnstar
Thank you for your contribution to the Swedish phonology article, as well as the other things (like audio samples). It proves to be very helpful. Wlad Sokolowskiy (talk) 14:09, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! And I thought the awards for linguistic stuff was over by now. :-)
Peter Isotalo 15:02, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

A new Wikilove message[edit]

picking the stars... Face-smile.svg
Estrella de mar en Zoo Basel.JPG Defending the Innocent Award
Often, defending innocent people is the hardest job - only the bravest will have the courage... Hafspajen (talk) 16:57, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Udema[edit]

The article Udema you nominated as a good article has passed Symbol support vote.svg; see Talk:Udema for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can nominate it to appear in Did you know. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Anotherclown -- Anotherclown (talk) 01:22, 13 July 2014 (UTC)


Hello, Peter -- I have just read the article on Elfdalian. I found it quite interesting. I told Rothorpe about it, and he read it and also found it interesting. We both had the same questions. Before doing research, I thought I'd ask you if you knew the answers. The questions are at User talk:Rothorpe#Elfdalian. CorinneSD (talk) 15:04, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Wow! Thanks for your great, thorough edits. CorinneSD (talk) 19:26, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
I have heard of it. It IS a Swedish dialect, and an old surviver of the Viking style language. Hafspajen (talk) 19:40, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Have you heard it spoken? If so, what does it sound like? CorinneSD (talk) 19:43, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
It sounds like Icelandic to me. What trouble+ why? Hafspajen (talk) 19:57, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Saying it's just Swedish. Not after they got their own ISO-code. A proud and independent folk, they are! It's a shame they haven't gotten minority language status.
Peter Isotalo 20:14, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
OK; IT IS NOT SWEDISH!!! It is a weird language that the Old Vikings were talking. Hafspajen (talk) 20:19, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Hafsvikingen scouting for unsuspecting natives to force his native tounge of glory and heroes
You ol' closet Great Swedish chauvinist, you...
Peter Isotalo 21:23, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
WHO, me Face-surprise.svg?? Hafspajen (talk) 21:26, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
"Speech for the stammerers forged, each word is an embryo in you,
One half is thrust forth, one half is gulped down.
All in thy country is by steam engine managed;
My dear, acquire one soon for thy tounge!"[13]
Peter Isotalo 21:43, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Hafs, you could get in trouble for saying that in Orsa. :-)
You're welcome, Corinne. Here's a link to a dialect archive used in Swedish language.[14] Just click one of the links under "Välj talare" and you get your choice between old/young, male/female. It's slightly mixed with Standard Swedish, but most of it is incomprehensible to a native Swede. Here's a YouTube video as well.[15]
Peter Isotalo 19:51, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Hahaha, I heard chainsaw - "motorsåg" and one day "en dag" - the rest -couldn't get it. Hafspajen (talk) 20:02, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Peter, I couldn't find "Valj talare" in the Swedish language article. Where is it? I also saw the You tube video. It was quite interesting. I don't know any Scandinavian language, so I wouldn't be able to distinguish Swedish from Elfdalian, but it was interesting anyway. By the way, I was just looking at the article on the Gothic language article, and in the chart showing the sounds, I couldn't see the Gothic letters in the first column. What do I need to do in order to be able to see them? CorinneSD (talk) 21:11, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Bit misleading there; it's the external link.
I'm not into East Germanic languages specifically, so it's all gibberish to me, but here's some help. Pick your favorite! :-D
Peter Isotalo 21:18, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
I listened to all four speakers. It sounds like a distant cousin of English (which I guess it is, in a way), or like halfway between English and Swedish. Do you have a link like that so that I can listen to modern Swedish? CorinneSD (talk) 22:21, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Oh, and thank you for the link to the Gothic fonts. CorinneSD (talk) 22:22, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Your edits on Swedish language.[edit]


Hello. I don't intend to start an edit war with you over the "possessive ending", even though it's by far the most common term for it in the English language (and we do, after all, write an encyclopaedia for English speakers...), but after the message I sent in my edit summary I expected a discussion on the talk page of the article, and not just another revert. Your behaviour on Swedish language looks to me like a clear ownership problem, and I don't base that solely on this little intermezzo, but also on previous observations. So discuss it, don't just revert it back to your preferred version. Thomas.W talk 17:34, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Som hemma... nästan
I've tried to incorporate your addition without the unnecessary extra verbiage and unmotivated differentiation between "suffix" and "ending". Take it to talk.
Peter Isotalo 18:07, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Å, hello. Peter, detta är Thomas.W. Thomas, detta är Peter. Hafspajen (talk) 18:32, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Right... Where are my manners?
Peter Isotalo 18:22, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Hejsan, hej. Hafspajen (talk) 18:32, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

@Hafspajen: You have a knack for making the right comments at the right time. I like your style (if I had had an animated GIF of Baloo saying "schyssta ..." something, from the animated movie Djungelboken, I would have added it here). Så, Peter, jag heter Tom och har två språk med mig i bagaget sedan födseln, ett native language, brittisk engelska, och ett bokstavligt talat modersmål, svenska. Men håller mig normalt långt borta från alla språkartiklar, såvida det inte handlar om POV-editing på artiklar om Punjabi och annat, artiklar där jag bara brukar städa upp. Thomas.W talk 18:39, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Ja, det är klart, ni talar svenska båda två. Face-smile.svg Hafspajen (talk) 18:58, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Detta är den engelsk wikipedia! Prat engelsk så normala människa can fårstö! Färbannad clodhoppare! Bishonen | talk 19:44, 20 July 2014 (UTC).

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Your GA nomination of Hemmema[edit]

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Et tu[edit]

Zeus is Dogzilla!.jpg


Hen är ett svenskt könsneutralt personligt pronomen[1][2] som kan användas på samma sätt som det könsspecifika pronomen, han och hon. Ordet har inspirerats av de finsk-ugriska språkens hän.[3] Det föreslogs år 1966 av Rolf Dunås i Upsala Nya Tidning[4], och har under 2000-talet fått viss spridning. Ordet kan användas om personer som inte känner sig hemma i en könsuppdelning mellan man och kvinna,[5] om personer tillhörande tredje könet och som därför varken tycker att pronomenet hon eller han passar för att beskriva dem[1]. Det kan också användas om personer vars kön talaren inte känner till, till exempel uttalanden om framtida eller hypotetiska personer, istället för att skriva "vederbörande", "han eller hon", "man" eller "denne". Hen kan också ses som ett uttryck för normkritik. Ordet har fått mycket uppmärksamhet och såväl positiv som negativ kritik.[6]

== Pronomen ==

Hen är ett könsneutralt pronomen som används på huvudsakligen två sätt:

  • Hen kan användas som ett alternativ till uttryck som "hon eller han", "vederbörande" eller den i fall där könstillhörigheten är okänd, oväsentlig eller ska otydliggöras, som i exemplet: "Om en elev vill överklaga bör hen först vända sig till rektor".[7]
  • Hen kan användas för att omtala personer som inte vill kategoriseras i grupperna ”man” eller ”kvinna”, eller av personer med normkritiska intentioner som inte vill kategorisera mottagarna i en tvådelad könsuppdelning.[1] Språkrådet har formulerat sig så här: "Vissa användare av denna normkritiska tillämpning förespråkar ibland att alla hon och han borde bytas ut mot hen som ett sätt att påverka språket och samhället i en mer könsneutral riktning", "Det bör också tilläggas att få driver linjen att han och hon borde förbjudas i svenskan, utan även de mest normkritiska driver vanligtvis linjen att hen ska ses som ett komplement till hon och han".[1]

Genitivformen av hen blir hens, ex "Det är hens ensak". Språkrådet rekommenderar hen, ex "Jag såg hen", som objektsform även om henom också förekommer i språkbruket.[7]

Språkrådet har gett ut skriften Pronomenet hen där de i slutet skriver följande under rubriken "Sammanfattande rekommendationer":


==Alternativa ord==

Viss kritik mot nyttjande av "hen" uppkommer också, baserat på att det redan finns könsneutrala pronomen i svenskan, så som "den/det", som fungerar lika bra om man vill undvika att använda ett könsbaserat pronomen. Kritik mot detta har dock uppstått då det för vissa har en alltför opersonlig, eller objektifierande klang.

Det går även att, i vissa fall, hänvisa till en persons titel/yrke/befattning/position istället för att använda "han/hon/hen", då mycket få är könsbaserade.


"Sveriges Överbefälhavare ansåg 1945 att kriget skulle vara över inom sex månader. I maj publicerade ÖB en rapport om läget efter kriget."

"Överläkaren hade vidtagit fel åtgärder, stod det i rapporten. Överläkaren hade slarvat med rutinerna."

"Fordonets förare är ansvarig för att samtliga i fordonet har trafikbälte."

"Läraren skällde ut eleven."

I inget av ovanstående exempel behöver könet anges, utan det går lika bra att använda personens titel/yrke/befattning/position istället.

== Historik ==

Förslag på användande av ordet har förekommit länge. Den 30 november 1966 skrev Rolf Dunås i Upsala Nya Tidnings språklåda: "För egen del kan jag drömma om att man från "han" gick ett steg framåt i vokalräckan och från "hon" två steg tillbaka och uppfann det tvåkönade ordet "hen" med kort e."[4][8]

Begreppet användes redan 1980 i Byggforskningsrådets rapport R39:1980, Att värdera byggd miljö i artikeln Värderingsmoment i planeringsprocessen, sid 5:22 och följande av Rolf H Reimers.

År 1994 föreslog lingvisten Hans Karlgren i SvD hen som ett "könsneutralt pronomen för vissa skrivsituationer".[8]

Kulturtidsskriften Ful har genomgående använt ordet hen som personligt pronomen sedan år 2007.

Forskning[9] visar hur den nuvarande spridningen av order ”hen” uppstod. Hen har varit ett internetfenomen. Över tid får hen ett första uppsving i 2008 och ett relativt genombrott 2009. Det beror på en enda bloggare, en transperson som bloggar ihärdigt och vissa månader står för så gott som alla träffarna. [10] Ett andra genombrott kommer 2012, då hen-debatten tar fart. Hen är då, beroende på hur man räknar, två-tre gånger vanligare än 2009 och 2010 (och betydligt vanligare än 2011). Det betyder att hen används mer, att det blivit ett ord i svenskan. Men inte dramatiskt mycket mer som just pronomen. Det som hänt är att det blivit en snackis. Bloggare tar strid för och emot pronomenet. [11] Fram till 2012 står, som antytts, få bloggar för nästan alla hen. 2012 är spridningen på bloggar mycket större. Hen har blivit känt och diskuteras, ... men det används inte allmänt.' De bloggar som använder hen mer frekvent handlar vanligen om genus, jämställdhet och relationer, och det är vanligen kvinnor som hen-bloggar. Hen är inte ett neutralt pronomen, utan har en tydlig genuskoppling.[12]


2009 kom hen med i Nationalencyklopedin beskrivet som ”föreslaget könsneutralt personligt pronomen i stället för hon och han”.[13]

I januari 2012 släpptes Jesper Lundqvists bok Kivi och Monsterhund, en barnbok som använder sig av hen istället för han eller hon. Boken gav upphov till en livlig debatt.[14]

I 2012 års februarinummer av Nöjesguiden användes ordet hen genomgående istället för han eller hon. Det var endast i direkta citat som de personliga pronomenen inte byttes ut.[15]

I februari 2013 användes pronomenet för första gången i Sveriges riksdag av den då nytillträda jämställdhetsministern Maria Arnholm (FP) i en interpellationsdebatt. I marsutgåvan av riksdagens språkbrev avrådes från användande av ordet i "styrdokument, mötesprotokoll, rapporter, pm, upphandlingstexter, årsredovisningar, informationsmaterial, webbplatsen, intranätet och externa brev". Detta efter att frågan hade beretts med riksdagsdirektören och diskuterats av talmannen och riksdagens gruppledare. Det var däremot inga problem med hen i politiska texter, där det är riksdagsledamöterna själva som avgör vilket pronomen som ska användas.[16] och

I september 2012 förbjöds användandet av ordet i nyhets- och reportagetexter av Dagens Nyheters publisher Gunilla Herlitz.[17] Journalisten och programmeraren Oivvio Polite lanserade då webbplatsen som ser ut som men där alla han och hon automatiskt byttes ut mot hen. En person på DN svarade med att polisanmäla webbplatsen för brott mot upphovrättslagen med Dagens Nyheter som målsägande, men drog senare tillbaka anmälan när det framkom att tidningens ledning inte ville polisanmäla. I sin egen tidning skrev man dock "Vi har inte polisanmält tilltaget" och utan att redovisa att en polisanmälan först hade upprättats för att sedan återtas på begäran av ledningen. När SVT:s Kulturnyheterna ifrågasatte formuleringen svarade[18] redaktionschef Åsa Tillberg att det misstag man hade begått hade rättats till, att ytterligare redogörelser vore ointressanta och att det vore onödigt att hänga ut någon som hade gjort fel.[19]


VAR FINNS IDAG KRITIK-AVDELNINGEN i den SVENSKA ARTIKELN? INGENSTANS Alla är inte positivt inställda till ordet hen.[20][21][7] Vissa anser att användningen av könsneutrala pronomen skapa förvirring i dagliga samtal.[22][23][24] Hen är ett ord som ibland väcker irritation, konstaterade Språkrådet.[21][1] Språkrådet ändrat råden om hen sedan maj 2013, och fokus har flyttats från personernas önskan att använda ordet till mottagarna, med rekommendationen att det skall nyttjas med försiktighet.[7]

Socionomen Elise Claesons ifrågasätter genuspedagogiken: "Jag är väldigt negativ till detta. Det är en ideologi, inte en vetenskap. Barn behöver trygghet och stabilitet, men det skapar otrygghet för de om pekas ut som om det är något fel på dem. Men det är viktigt att de får leva ut upptäckten av sin sexualitet".[25] Barnen kan bli förvirrade av att tvingas använda ett neutrum. Att upptäcka sitt kön är ett naturens steg för att bli vuxen. Det finns biologiska skillnader mellan män och kvinnor. Psykologiskt är det här något som alla barn går igenom för att känna att man är ett kön, och inget mittemellan. Alla barn måste genomgå vissa utvecklingsfaser, och att identifiera och acceptera och känna igen sina könsroller. Både flickor och pojkar har en motsvarande fas där de upptäcker att de har ett kön. Det är en del i barnens utveckling som är viktigt, det är en fas som de måste gå igenom och att störa den utvecklingen kan göra dem en otjänst.[25]

Ylva Johansson socialdemokratisk riksdagsledamot påpekade att det finns andra politiska instrument som är viktigare för att åstadkomma ett mer jämställt samhälle. "Om någon vill bli kallad för hen är det förstås en annan sak, det är viktigt att var och en har rätt att identifiera sin egen identitet och bli respekterad i det". Ylva Johansson underströk att politiska beslut är viktigare än ett ord: "Men jag vill varna för att lägga för stort värde vid ett ord. Trots allt är det politiska beslut, på riktigt, som är viktiga. Det är oroväckande om vi har en minister som tror att man bara med ett ord kan ändra på kvinnors löner, anställningsvillkor, glastak och uttaget av föräldraförsäkring".[26]

Maud Olofsson, svensk politiker (centerpartist), såg också faror med att ersätta hon och han med det könsneutrala pronomenet hen: "Men jag tror inte att detta är rätt väg" sa hon, och tillade att man "riskerar att skapa barn som inte kan känna trygghet i sin identitet eftersom ens egna föräldrar inte bejakar den man faktiskt är, nämligen pojke eller flicka." [27]

Per Svensson, kulturjournalist på Sydsvenskans Kultursidor skriver: [28] Språket utvecklas och förändras organiskt, inte genom påbud. Just därför är det viktigt att normbekräftande språkanvändare som stora nyhetsredaktioner respekterar också trögheten i språket. Reportrar ska skriva som läsarna talar, fast klarare och mer begripligt, inte försöka få läsarna att tala på ett visst sätt genom att skriva dem på näsan. Är ”hen” i dag ett vedertaget och allmänt nyttjat begrepp? Nej. Det är ett begrepp som fortfarande befinner sig på kampanjstadiet. Jag menar att försiktighetsprincipen talar för att låta det stanna där ett bra tag till.”Hen”-förespråkarna vill inte bara förändra språket utan också världen. Detta utifrån det filosofiska antagandet att världen i viss mening är en språkkonstruktion. Jag är inte främmande för den tanken, tvärtom. Verkligheten inte bara speglas i språket, det är också i hög grad i och genom språket verkligheten skapas – ges form, innehåll och mening. Det är ett tungt vägande skäl till skepsis inför ideologiskt motiverade språkreformer. Man behöver inte gå till totalitära system för att hitta exempel på hur språket medvetet utnyttjats som makt- och manipulationsinstrument, det räcker med att fundera över vad de senaste decenniernas managementlingo har betytt för hur vi förhåller oss till våra arbeten och till varandra. Man ska i det sammanhanget inte glömma att friheten att använda ”hen” också har en tvingande sida: Är du med oss eller emot oss? I framkant eller på efterkälken? Genusmedveten eller kd-väljare. Den som inte sa de’ va’ de’. Nya ord, nya begrepp, förändrar verkligen verkligheten. Nya grundläggande begrepp kan förändra verkligheten på grundläggande sätt. Inte minst det gör det motiverat att förhålla sig avvaktande till dem. Jag är dock negativ till ”hen”-kampanjen också av ett annat, till synes rakt motsatt skäl.

Lars-Gunnar Andersson, språkvetare och professor i modern svenska vid Göteborgs universitet, och tillika sakkunnig i P 1-programmet ”Språket”, ansåg: "Men många som uttalar sig gör det utan att tänka igenom vad de egentligen vill". Andersson ansåg att hen kan skapa ”krångel”, och tillade: "Den typen av bekymmer tror jag det vore bra om vi klarade oss utan. En sådan radikal förändring av hela vårt språk känns väldigt konstigt. Tittar man på hur ofta ”han och hon” förekommer i våra texter i dag så tror jag att man skapar betydligt fler problem än man löser. Vi pratar faktiskt om ord som tillhör de femtio, hundra vanligast förekommande i vårt språk. Jag kommer inte att använda hen. Men man får ju naturligtvis kalla sig själv för ”hen” om man vill". [29]

Horace Engdahl, Svenska Akademins ständige sekreterare svarade: "Jag är ledsen, men fenomenet hen är i mina ögon alltför fånigt för att förtjäna seriös kommentar" när DN frågade honom om "det lilla ordet med den stora laddningen".[29]

Nöjespraktikanten Gabriella BarkNyheter24 skrev i en krönika i november 2013 att användandet av ordet hen bidrog till att förminska mansrollen och att män på så sätt inte längre tilläts vara män i en mer traditionell bemärkelse.[30]

==Avledningar== Under 2012 användes benämningen henifiera av bland annat branschtidningen Dagens Media. Ordet användes där i betydelsen "anpassa till hen", "hen-anpassa".[31]

Ja, det kanske var lite att ta i. är lite för bra på att plocka bort nästan all kritik istället för att bara balansera. Kolla t.ex. den minimala täckningen av Den motvillige monarken i artikeln om knugen. Men det här ovan känns som om det har väldigt mycket slagsida åt det kritiska.
Men lägg gärna till mer om den kritiska debatten om du tycker det är på sin plats. Jag tror bara inte det bör vara fullt så polemiskt som det ovan. Referat är ocskå mycket bättre än väldigt långa citat.
Peter Isotalo 19:36, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
det är möjlight att det har en viss slagsida, men du skulle ha sett hur det såg ut innan. Rena propaganda artikeln. har du läst den på Franska? De säger rakt ut att det är ett politiskt och feministiskt ord. Hafspajen (talk) 19:41, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Hela hen artikel sedan kritikavnittets tillkomst 12 november 2013 har blivit ett slagfält om formuleringar. Utbytning av källor, till ex därför att det hade mera kritiska undertoner, och för att man vill dölja att de har bytt rekommendation och understryker att ordet kan väcka irritation. Allt som låter kritiskt ersätts med en annan formulering så att det ska låta bättre, trevligt eller rekommenderat, och uppmuntra folk att använda detta. Varje gång Grape ger den en omgång artikeln så är vi tillbaka till – ”vi tycker nog att hen bör kunna användas av normkritiska användare, bäst de vill, om de så själva önskar”. Vilket är INTE vad Språkrådets rekommendation. Och detta borde stå allra först i artikeln, inte någonstans längst ner när man har förvirrat alla läsare med de olika möjliga böjningar, och annat snurr. Detta är ett sätt att använda sig av Wikipedia att påverka den allmänna opinionen att börja använda ordet hen. Inte en enda redigering fick vara i fred. Och innan kritikavsnittet tillkom så var artikeln helt och hållet obalanserad positiv mot ordet. Wikipedia är inte en blogg för att sprida ordet hen. Jag upprepar: Anledningen varför kritikavsnitter såg ut så är för at Grape skrev om ALLT, och endast meningar försedda med referens och ord för ord ordagrant citerade fick vara ifred för en tendentiös omskrivning. Detta KOPIA AV DISCUSSION PÅ SVENSKA ARTIKELS TALK PAGE. Hafspajen (talk) 19:45, 20 July 2014 (UTC) KOLLA BARA HUR DET SÅG UT INNAN, 2013 NOVEMBER - HÄR, OCH TALA OM SEDAN VAD DU TYCKER. Hafspajen (talk) 19:50, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm taking Bishonen's hint[16] and switching to English.
To some degree, I agree with criticism about the Swedish Wikipedia article, but this isn't the appropriate forum for that discussion. I will most likely not return to so I don't want to engage in debate here about what they do over there.
I agree with the French article that the use of hen is about politics. But that obviously means that it's just as political to criticize hen. I don't see any good reason to underscore the ideology of those who are pro-hen. I like the word myself, use it when appropriate and I'm very much a feminist. But I do want to describe it accurately, including the opposition to it. I just don't want to make it an issue over whether we're "promoting" it or not. The Language Council, manuals of style and recommendations of media and gov't agencies is what matters, not Claeson or even Andersson.
Peter Isotalo 20:04, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Det var oxå som järnspikar och förbannat elände - visa policy. OCH NUMERA NÄR ALLA HAR GURGEL ÖVERSÄTTNING ... NEJ, det var inte du - it was the Swedish Wiki who was promotional - but you know how women and holy cows are. Hafspajen (talk) 20:20, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, we do know! Women are höns! Bishonen | talk 20:46, 20 July 2014 (UTC).
Well, men are animals. Hear us roar! :-D
Peter Isotalo 20:59, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
The problem is that now when militant Swedish women wan't to turn every men into a hen - who are the women going to have sex with? Or just go on laying eggs? Hafspajen (talk) 21:03, 20 July 2014 (UTC)


  1. ^ a b c d e Template:Webbref
  2. ^ Template:Webbref
  3. ^
  4. ^ a b Template:Webbref
  5. ^ Template:Webbref
  6. ^ Template:Tidningsref
  7. ^ a b c d Template:Webbref
  8. ^ a b Template:Tidningsref
  9. ^ Hen i bloggosfären: spridningsmönster
  10. ^ Hen i bloggosfären: spridningsmönster
  11. ^ Hen i bloggosfären: spridningsmönster
  12. ^ Hen i bloggosfären: spridningsmönster
  13. ^ Template:Webbref
  14. ^ Template:Tidningsref
  15. ^ Template:Tidningsref
  16. ^ "Henförbud i riksdagen?", Ottar, 4 mars 2013. Läst den 6 mars 2013.
  17. ^ Template:Tidningsref
  18. ^ Dagens Nyheters sida på Wikiquote. Läst den 14 september 2012.
  19. ^ SVT:s Kulturnyheterna, kl 19.00, 13 september 2012.
  20. ^ Template:Tidningsref
  21. ^ a b Template:Webbref
  22. ^ Template:Webbref
  23. ^ Språkförsvaret, artikel publicerat i DN 2/1 2013
  24. ^ Könsroller i dagligt språk
  25. ^ a b DN: Negativ påverkan på barn
  26. ^ Ylva Johansson: nytt ord skapar inte jämställdhet
  27. ^ Maud Olofsson Hen kan skapa otrygga barn
  28. ^ [1]
  29. ^ a b DN: Det lilla ordet med den stora laddningen 2013-12-02
  30. ^ Nyheter24 23 november 2013: Vi behöver riktiga karlar och män – inga jävla hen, läst 2 december 2012
  31. ^ Anders (2013-03-15): "Årets populäraste nyord: järnrörspolitiker, zlatanera, henifiera och gubbploga". Läst 26 juni 2013.

WP:PERM request[edit]

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July 2014[edit]

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DYK for Hen (pronoun)[edit]

Orlady (talk) 14:09, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

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Reference Errors on 23 August[edit]

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Peter, you've been around long enough to know about WP:BRD. I reverted tour chand of flag because it was incorrect. The flag you introuduced to the article wasn't adopted until 1922. Whereas the original flag dates back to before 1663 (first regulated in that year). Mjroots (talk) 07:45, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Have you read flag of Sweden recently? Seen my comments on the talkpage? I pointed out the problem as early as 2007 and raised it again in May this year. When no one replied, I simply removed the unreferenced facts.
The issue of the two-tailed flag looks to me like one of those factoids that have established through presumption and over-precise readings of primary sources. There were never any proper references to support such a detailed claim. The place to settle this is talk:flag of Sweden#Double tail needs support.
Peter Isotalo 14:08, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Answers: Yes, before your recent edits, and no. Maybe we need to ask for assistance from WP:SWEDEN and/or WP:MILHIST on this matter. Mjroots (talk) 21:21, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Done.[17][18] Added Wikipedia:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology for good measure.[19]
I'm happy to admit I'm wrong here, but the lack of specific second-hand references has been obvious for quite some time. To me it looks like a classic case of assuming that early modern flags were as precisely standardized as modern ones. This is an issue I keep bumping into here on Wikipedia, especially when it comes to military history. Editors who write on modern history (or maybe some very late 18th-century stuff) presume that all facts are as neat, ordered and exact in 17th century sources as they were two centuries later. It's not too dissimilar from the back-dating of standards regarding names of ships.
Peter Isotalo 21:50, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for that. I may be wrong too. I don't claim to be an expert on flags either, although I do strive for accuracy. Mjroots (talk) 10:37, 1 September 2014 (UTC)


If you feel like it take a look at the articles Martina Montelius, Athena Farrokhzad, Victor Hartman, Helena Quiding and Lilla Skuggan. Appreciate it! :)--BabbaQ (talk) 16:57, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Anna Maria Rückerschöld[edit]

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Anna Maria Rückerschöld you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. Time2wait.svg This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Cwmhiraeth -- Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:01, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Administrational matter[edit]

I have put the question of SSF and "333 Årsboken" to administrator User talk: Diannaa, your personal opinion of this assembled book ought not to be interesting. Neither is Your opinion of "Stiftelsen Skånsk Framtid" as "political extremists" of any relevance. My cousins from Västmanland doesn't understand Danish at all or only with difficulties. If I speak scanian (Landskronit-scanian) up in Stockholm, I must adapt my accent in order to be fully understood. That's about the same as if I speak Lansdskronit-scanian in Copenhagen. I'm sorry I was sick the day when phonetic signs was taught in school, however here are some commonly used (Lansdskronit-)Scanian words. Where "DK" is added, this has a same prounounciation as in Danish.

  • "skobann" skosnöre (shoelace) - DK
  • "mölla" kvarn (mill) - DK
  • "tunnlen" some say "tunnelen" tunneln (the tunnel) - DK
  • "spann" hink (bucket), "spannar" hinkar(buckets) - DK
  • "vann" vatten (water), "hialös" otålig (impatient) - DK
  • "schöttfarrs", köttfärs, "först" not "föcht" or "fötjt"
  • "mail" mejl - DK
  • "hue" huvud (head)
  • "brenne" ved ([fire]wood) - DK
  • "sviskånn" katrinplommon (dried plums) - in DK "svisker"
  • "råmma" träffa (hit [a target]) - in DK "ramme"
  • "ja så hann" jag såg honom (I saw him) - [though never "ja så hon", but "ja så henne"]
  • "fastlasboulle" semla (a kind of bun with cream)
  • "var va' du?" var var du? (where were you)
  • "engel" ängel (angel) - DK
  • "den brae" den bästa (though in the scanian distinction, "den brae" can only be used if the object actually is good. Out of f.i. three not very good objects, "den besta" is used instead)
  • "feltet" klungan (in cycle races, the main body of riders) this is rather new, and comes directly from Danish TV2 television, which has covered the three main cykle tours since the late 80's. No Swedish TV-channel aires Tour de France, Giro d'Italia or Vuelta a Espaňa.
My intention with this unreferenced (but in my opinion true) list, is only to enlighten You, if You happen to believe that unadapted Scanian sounds like "television-scanian". Or the scanian dialect or language is about to disappear, it developes like all other languages/dialects. You are right, about Scanian as several similar but slightly different dialects. However the difference between f.i Trelleborg-scanian (in south-west) and Kristianstad-scanian (in north-east), with a driving distance of aroud 100 km, differs less than f.i. Stockholm-Swedish vs Eskilstuna-Swedish, and the geographical distance is about the same.
Even if You (in my opinion) are correct in most (but not all) contributions, You seem to avoid certain importaint facts, and "333-årsboken", which only is assembled by SSF, cannot automatically be disregarded from. And this foundation is not, has never been or will ever be political - and any comparance between this foundation and f.i. I.R.A or E.T.A. (or similar movements) is very inappropriate indeed.Boeing720 (talk) 19:28, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
I love how you went straight from simply making up that I called SSF "political extremists" to lecturing me how I shouldn't compare them with the terrorist organizations like IRA or ETA. A few pointers about what you assume are Danish influences, btw:
  • Fastlagsbulle is what semla is called in Finland Swedish. It's the older term that remained the same in Danish and Norwegian, but changed in some Swedish dialects. Not unique to Scanian. Spann is somewhat similar.
  • Fältet in the sense of "group" in sports has been attested since 1887.[20] I'm perfectly familiar with it and it's been standard sports vocabulary for decades. Here's an example of the common compound startfält ("start group") from 1935.[21]
Den bästa is den bedste in Danish. No idea what you mean there.
Jag såg han (rather than the object form honom) occurs in several Swedish dialects. In Stockholm it's frequently ja såg 'an.
As for the rest, I have not contested in any way that Scanian has roots that go back to Danish times. I'm just opposing your attempts at actually describing it as Danish.
As for Danish-Swedish comprehension, read North Germanic languages#Mutual intelligibility. Overall, there's no indication that "linguistic proximity" is more important that social and cultural relations.
Peter Isotalo 21:19, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
The matter is, as User talk: Diannaa suggested put at reliable sources noticeboard Boeing720 (talk) 21:23, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
Didn't see Your comments. "Faslasboulle" wasn't one of the joint Scanian-Danish words. I find it an interesting fact, that Scanian have some common words with Swedish in Finland (which are not in use in Stockholm or Svealand). There is a vocabulary which Scanian shares with Danish, some of those words are included in SAOL, but far from all.
You seem to hav misunderstood a minor but importaint thing. Only the words "marked" -DK are such joint words. "den brae" isn't one of them, but so to speak "pure" Scanian. The difference between "den brae" and "den besta" is, the latter is a kind of comparing. Only. F.i. of three bad working pens or lighters, "den brae" cannot be used for any of them. But of three well working such items , "den brae" referes to the best working - and hence equals "den beste". It is a small matter of distinction, but still.
Isn't "jag såg han" bad Swedish ? (Up the country) I'm no expert on Stockholm dialect. Words like "en ball sak" or "hajar du inte ?" Doesn't work in Scanian. Not even "polare" (althogh I've actually seen that in wrighting, by Stefan Lindqvist at HD, an old friend of mine. But he had once a "närradio show" where he and another guy spoke Stockholmian !!! It didn't last for long though and ended his radio career (:
I can agree with "Overall, there's no indication that "linguistic proximity" is more important that social and cultural relations." Boeing720 (talk) 21:54, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Language[edit]

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Language you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. Time2wait.svg This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Chiswick Chap -- Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:20, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, gmail - GA discussions should be open to all.
Peter, I think we all agree the referencing is enough for GA; whether Maunus's arguments would cut enough ice with FA reviewers I don't know, and don't care. If you could close out the few remaining issues we can get on and close this GA. All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:50, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
No backroom antics going on, Chiswick*. Maunus was just giving me advice on literature. :-)
I'll get on the remaining issues this weekend. I'll park myself and my laptop at the library and focus on the outstanding issues one by one. I should be able to get them all done by Sunday.
Peter Isotalo 18:55, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Super, and very glad to hear it.
  • Chiswick is a place, and a chap is a man. I'm happy to be CC if the full name is too long! CC (talk) 18:59, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Right ho. I have a penchant for picking out single words from user names when I shorten them. CC does makes more sense, so CC it is. :-) Peter Isotalo 19:06, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Anna Maria Rückerschöld[edit]

The article Anna Maria Rückerschöld you nominated as a good article has passed Symbol support vote.svg; see Talk:Anna Maria Rückerschöld for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can nominate it to appear in Did you know. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Cwmhiraeth -- Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:44, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Hafspajen (talk)[edit]

The Wind Is My Lover...(vind i håret

The Wind Is My Lover .. not much... Hafspajen (talk) 10:35, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Is that the actual translation of the title...?
Peter Isotalo 19:03, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Det ser ut så. Och det verkar dessutom inte vara mycket att hänga i julgran - Bishy - om Crisco får tala på indonesiska på sin sida, så vill jag ock tala. Hafspajen (talk) 19:10, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Cryptic fun
Ni är och förblir kryptiska, ergo roliga.
Peter Isotalo 19:19, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Ni min herre är ännu mera så. Hafspajen (talk) 19:28, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Dessutom kan man ha mycket kul i en krypta - bara man vet hur ... Face-smile.svgHafspajen (talk) 19:30, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Vad tycker du om de här ändringarna?[edit]

[22][23][24][25] ? Hafspajen (talk) 21:32, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

1) Jag menar strikt taget så är detta inte en fest som firar ett helgon, utan en fest firad i de nordiska länderna. Det är fel att börja ned helgonet.
2) Man tonade ner det nordiska anknytningen och dessutom tog bort det Nordiska lexikonets referens, och sedan satte dit taggar, unreferenced. Det är väl lite fräckt. Hafspajen (talk) 21:41, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Jo, det var väl lite väl drastiskt. Men jag undrar om inte det nordiska kanske blivit något överrepresenterat. Det vet jag inte eftersom jag inte kan ett smack om katolskt firande av Lucia utanför Sverige. Det är värt att kolla närmare på. Det är nog bättre att tillgripa "citation needed".
Jag är faktiskt inte helt emot att någon tar bort Ugglan. Hellre att {{dubious source}} tillämpas, dock. I min värld finns finns det ingen ursäkt att tillgripa Nordisk familjebok istället för t.ex. NE. Och redan NE har ju en del uppdateringsproblem och problem med nyansering. Sånt kommer man undan på där målsättningar ofast är på ren amatörnivå och omdömen är farligt personliga. Men här på ratas ju den typen av medelmåttiga standarder. Överlag funderar jag faktiskt på att börja jaga rätt på onödiga hänvisningar till Ugglan här på Seniorerna (vare sig det är till kropp eller sinne) på använder Ugglan så ofta de kan. Men det är för att de inte ids läsa på eller gå till bibblan och inte ser nödvändigheten att vara kritisk till gammal skåpmat. I vissa fall är de ju t.o.m. så konservativa att de tycker det är jobbigt med modern historieskrivnig.
Peter Isotalo 09:39, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Victor Hartman[edit]

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:20, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Language[edit]

The article Language you nominated as a good article has passed Symbol support vote.svg; see Talk:Language for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can nominate it to appear in Did you know. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Chiswick Chap -- Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:42, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Results table[edit]

Please stop cocking up the results table on Swedish general election, 2014. Every time you introduce very long party names (specifically "Sverige ut ur EU / Frihetliga Rättvisepartiet ("Sweden out of the EU/Libertarian justice party", FRP)" you extend the column width of the hidden table, meaning the three don't align properly (click show on this version or just look at this version. Also, re the party names issue, please take it to talk rather than keep on reverting. Using English party names is pretty standard on Wikipedia, as Impru pointed out in their edit summary. Cheers, Number 57 22:55, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

If there are guidelines that support the practice of presenting our own translations as official names, please show me to them. Complaining that the table can't handle official names is a pretty bizarre way to prioritize how to write articles. I urge you to take the issue of unofficial translations seriously instead of complaining about purely technical issues.
Peter Isotalo 23:13, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
I never said the table can't handle official names. The problem was that you didn't alter the width parameter for the party column, leaving it looking broken. Number 57 23:16, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
So fix the width parameters...
Peter Isotalo 23:21, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
My problem is why you didn't fix it. I'm not trying to be a dick about it, I just don't understand why some editors seem to think it's ok to leave tables with broken formatting, as I quite often have to clear up the mess they leave behind (this was another one I had to deal with today). Number 57 23:28, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Ever thought that I might not have recognized it as a problem to begin with? Or that I viewed the unofficial translations as a bigger problem? It's not that easy to keep track of tables if you don't deal with them regularly. And I don't. As I'm sure that you don't deal with translations of Swedish on a regular basis.
I personally never revert wholesale unless there edits that simply aren't salvageable.
Peter Isotalo 00:21, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
The only way you wouldn't have recognised it was a problem is if you didn't actually preview or look at your edit after you made it (particularly this version) - either way, it's not good practice. Please just be a bit more careful. Thanks, Number 57 10:38, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Edit warring[edit]

Hi. I am writing to you as one of three parties recently edit warring on Swedish general election, 2014. You are all receiving the same message. As evident from the recent page history, there have been disputes in recent hours. The edit warring must stop immediately. Further edit warring may result in a block without any further warning. Please see my note on the article talk page regarding the Request for Page Protection that was received. Rjd0060 (talk) 02:20, 21 September 2014 (UTC)