My name is Ryan, and it's my pleasure to welcome you, Pfold, to Wikipedia! First of all, I'd like to thank you for joining the project, and contributing to articles and discussion. I hope you can continue to take part in Wikipedia, because we need more valuable editors like yourself.
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- 1 A Help Request: Language Map
- 2 Old High German
- 3 what is a title page? and do you plan to restore...?
- 4 Siegfried
- 5 Old Bavarian
- 6 Comparative linguistics/History of linguistics > Joseph Scaliger
- 7 Germanic Parent Language
- 8 London Meetup - January 12, 2008
- 9 A new Oxbridge user box
- 10 Invitation to Wikipedia meetup in London
- 11 Yeoman
- 12 London Wikimedia Fundraiser
- 13 The Contribution Team cordially invites you to Imperial College London
- 14 First ever Brighton Wiki Meetup
- 15 BP
- 16 Low German (disambiguation)
- 17 Chivalric romance
A Help Request: Language Map
About two weeks ago, I took a JPG file that had the Indo-European language tree on it and transferred the information to a (I hope) "sleeker" new SVG document. []. Unfortunately, I know very little about what exactly I was recreating. I added everything from the original to the new version, which has left rather enigmatic language names and numbers on it that I can't explain. User:Kwamikagami told me that the numbers are called "confidence levels," if that helps. I was wondering if you could possibly explain what these mean so I could add a explanation on the image page, or do something else to make things clearer for readers. Thanks so much for you time.
Old High German
I wonder if you could answer some of my questions on Old High German talk, as you reverted my edits. Rex 17:26, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
what is a title page? and do you plan to restore...?
- modern books have title pages which give the date of publication, so the language can be dated - manuscripts tend not to have title pages and are usually not accurately datable. Unfortunately the title page article lacks any historical information about the development of the device.
And do you plan to take the stuff on comparative linguistics that you removed from that page and put it on the comparative linguistics page? I only looked briefly; maybe I missed some that you did move...
--Ling.Nut 17:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry, don't understand what you mean. I think one of your reference to comparative linguistics must be meant to be soemthing else. --Pfold 17:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- Your explanation here is a bit more clear, but on the historical linguistics page the reference to a title page seems unconnected to the topic...
- I was talking about your edit of 7 April 2006 with the edit summary cut comparative material.
- Do you think we can cite all the info on the historical linguistics page and match it to its source?
- Thanks --Ling.Nut 18:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry, still not quite clear on this - is it that you want to me to put the cut material on the comparative linguistics talk page? --Pfold 17:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- I might be able to help in a couple weeks, but it's final exams time right now...
- --Ling.Nut 18:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I have no personal background in the history of Siegfried or the related legends. The article on Sigurd (note the name; Siegfried redirects there) seems to say that the earliest appearance of the legend was in Sweden. It also says that the name Sigurd appears to be a Norse corruption of the German Siegfried, so this is confusing. Wikipedians interested in Norse mythology are very prolific (except with source citations), and it is possible that they are contributing their own slant to many articles. You may want to explore these articles and correct them, if necessary. Finell (Talk) 03:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, the Sigurd page is misleading about the origins of the legend. I'm planning to put up a proper Siegfried page when I can find the time. --Pfold 09:54, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear Pfold, you seem to be an expert on historical linguistics and medieval germanic languages. I found out that even by recognized scholars of German philology about a third of Old German (or Old High German) primary sources are classified as "Old Bavarian". Among them some very prominent ones like:
- Abrogans (first text ever in Old High German)
- Lay of Hildebrand (first text in Old High German that is not based on a latin source)
- Kassel conversations
- Wessobrunn Prayer
- Song of St. Peter (Freisinger Petruslied, first song in Old High German)
Of course, the romantic nationalistic scholars of the 19th century claimed all of those primary sources for German, not mentioning their Bavarian (and not Frankonian) character. This was done among others by the especially notorious Grimm brothers. I would like to add this information into Wikipedia, but I am intimidated to do so, because especially German users don't want to hear about this (by the way, I am modern-Bavarian speaking Austrian). A lot of the vocabulary of those texts is not even listed in Old High German dictionaries.
Did you ever hear about this "bavarian connection"? Is there any information about this in English language scientific literature? I think especially the Lay of Hildebrand was investigated by English and American scholars, because of its partly Old-Saxon character. Perhaps they found out something. Many thanks in advance ... --El bes 20:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC) (My account at the bavarian Wikipedia)
- Bavarian is an OHG dialect, so it's perfectly legitimate to call a Bavarian text OHG. Indeed OHG is really just a cover term for a related group of dialects. There's no nationalism or conspiracy or cover-up here. These texts have not been "claimed for German". Not to mention the fact that many Bavarian texts do in fact have some Franconian features, arising from the political and ecclesiastical relationship between the Bavaria and the Carolingian Empire. The text of the Hildebrandlied is not Bavarian, but a dialect mixture with some definitely and some possibly Bavarian features.
- And, of course, your own point of view could be characterised as nationalistic, as you want to claim the texts for Bavarian as if that's excluded by their being OHG! I think you need to familiarise yourself with much more of the scholarship before adding material on this subject to WP - other editors will (rightly) expect you to cite sources for anything they're not familiar with from the literature. --Pfold 11:41, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the detailed answer. I am perfectly aware of what you say and would never put my personal point of view into a wikipedia article, unless I find some goods scientific sources to rely on. But on the Talk page it is still allowed to raise such questionsn, istn' it?
- Perhaps the misunderstanding results from the fact that in English literature, scholars seem to make a distinction between Old German (all dialects, including Old Saxon) and Old Upper German (Lombardian, Alemannic and Bavarian). I saw this definition in the Encyclopedia Britannica  and never read about it in German language literature. There the word Old HIGH German is used almost synonimousely to Old German, and never Old Upper German. --El bes 12:28, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry for disturbing you again. I just saw that you contribute to the High German consonant shift article. The above findings open a completely new view on the consonant shift. Because the Abrogans dictionary, that might really be the oldest Old German primary source, already has implemented the consonant shift. How is it possible, that in a shift from A to B, B is the form we see in the very oldest text? Isn't there some mistake in the whole concept or perhaps just some wrong age determination? --El bes 20:45, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
- You have overlooked the fact that there were people speaking OHG long before the earliest surviving texts! I'm afraid that nothing you say "opens a completely new view on the consonant shift." --Pfold 11:41, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
- I am perfectly aware of the fact, that any language is spoken for generations before it is written down for the first time. But as a matter of fact, you cannot give any information about the time of the consonant shift, or the time when the Old Upper German (Lombard, Alemannic, Bavarian) group drifted apart linguistically. --El bes 12:28, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
no conspiracy, no cover-up:
In the article about Otfrid of Weissenburg, the specific variant of old west-germanic is explicitly mentioned as (Old) South Rhine Frankonian, see:
- "Otfrid of Weissenburg (German: Otfrid von Weißenburg) (c. 800 - after 870) was a monk at Weissenburg (modern-day Wissembourg in Alsace) and the author of a gospel harmony in rhyming couplets now called the Evangelienbuch. It is written in the South Rhine Franconian dialect of Old High German."
In the article on the "Ludwigslied" there is also a very detailed analysis of the specific language variant, see:
- "The dialect of the poem generally regarded as Rhine Franconian, though there are some peculiarities which have received a variety of explanations. It is assumed that the manuscript was written by a bilingual scribe in Saint-Amand and we have no other example of an OHG text from this area. Some regard it as the sole textual example of the otherwise little known West Franconian dialect, which is assumed to have been the language of the Carolingian court."
Why aren't you putting the Lay of Hildebrand article at the same sophisticated level of historical linguistics? I suppose, because than you would have to mention its bavarian characteristics explicitely? I would be very pleased, if you prove me wrong.
- Don't be silly. I will do it when I get time to check on the agreed Bav. characteristics. --Pfold 10:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
P.S.: Perhaps the fact, that the monastry of Fulda was founded by a bavarian monch (Saint Sturm), explains why in Frankonian speaking area there was written a (semi)-Bavarian text. --El bes 19:00, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Comparative linguistics/History of linguistics > Joseph Scaliger
Hi Pfold. I am looking for some pointers from a more experienced editor on an addition I am working on relating to Joseph Scaliger and the beginnings of comparative linguistics. If you are interested, please see the top of my talkpage for details. Thanks. Varoon Arya 13:44, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi again, Pfold. I just finished writing a first draft of an article entitled Germanic Parent Language. I am expecting one of three things to happen: (1) It is completely ignored, seeing as it doesn't (read: any longer) link to any pages in the mainspace; (2) I am given a royal thrashing for having written it (I've already had one promised to me) and receive half-hearted death-threats (but only half) from certain editors; (3) a few tid-bits of information are gleaned from it to be incorperated elsewhere, and the bulk is cast upon the ever-growing heap of rejected stubs. Somewhere inside, I'm hoping for (4) some gallant senior editor will see the value in it, and suggest it be linked somewhere where it won't cause anyone to lose too much sleep. But I'm not holding my breath on that one. Anyways, could you take a look at it? (And perhaps spare the rod if you decide to go for (2)?) Thanks. Varoon Arya 04:30, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
- UPDATE: Well, the stub has apparently survived the preliminary round (ca. 24 hours), though it has been suggested to merge it with Proto-Germanic. If you get the chance, please drop by and voice your opinion. Thanks. Aryaman (☼) 03:08, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
London Meetup - January 12, 2008
Hi! There's going to be a London Wikipedia Meetup coming Saturday January 12, 2008. If you are interested in coming along take part in the discussion over at Wikipedia:Meetup/London7. The discussion is going on until tomorrow evening and the official location and time will be published at the same page late Thursday or early Friday. Hope to see you Saturday, Poeloq (talk) 03:28, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
A new Oxbridge user box
Pfold...I am currently in the process of writing a user box for all of the colleges that are part of Oxbridge. This template is meant to replace your current college template. Please take a look at the work in progress and comment on it. My main concerns are college abbreviations and color choice. I am using scarf colors for the colleges. Thank you. - LA @ 17:36, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Invitation to Wikipedia meetup in London
Date: 13:00 onwards, Sunday 10 August 2008
Venue: Penderel's Oak pub, Holborn WC1 map
More information: Wikipedia:Meetup/London 12
I noticed that you have listed yourself as a Wikipedian in London, so I thought you might like to come to one of our monthly social meetups. The next one is going to be on Sunday 10 August, which might well be rather short notice, but if you can't come this time, we try to have one every second Sunday of the month.
If you haven't been before, these meetups are mainly casual social events for Wikipedia enthusiasts in which we chat about Wikipedia and any other topics we fancy. It's a great way to meet some very keen Wikipedians, but we'd also love for you to come along if you're interested in finding out more about Wikipedia, other Wikimedia projects, or other collaborative wiki projects too.
The location is a pub that is quite quiet and family friendly on a Sunday lunchtime, so hopefully younger Wikipedians will also feel welcome and safe. Alcohol consumption is certainly not required!
Although the meetups are popular, many UK-based editors still don't know about them. It would be great to welcome some fresh faces, so I hope you can come along.
Please forgive the slightly impersonal mass-invite!
Hi. There is a proposal to move Yeoman (disambiguation) to , and I have moved the article formerly at that page name to a page name that more accurately reflects the scope of the article : Yeoman (word). Judging by your comments on Talk:Yeoman (word), I think this may please you. I agree with you 100% that the content about "yeomen" prior to the earliest evidence of the word itself is specious. --Una Smith (talk) 02:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
London Wikimedia Fundraiser
Good evening! This is a friendly message from Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry, inviting you to the London Wikimedia Fundraising party on 19th December 2010, in approximately one week. This party is being held at an artistic London venue with room for approximately 300 people, and is being funded by Ed Saperia, a non-Wikipedian who has a reputation for holding exclusive events all over London. This year, he wants to help Wikipedia, and is subsidising a charity event for us. We're keen to get as many Wikimedians coming as possible, and we already have approximately 200 guests, including members of the press, and some mystery guests! More details can be found at http://ten.wikipedia.org/wiki/London - expect an Eigenharp, a mulled wine hot tub, a free hog roast, a haybale amphitheatre and more. If you're interested in coming - and we'd love to have you - please go to the ten.wikipedia page and follow the link to the Facebook event. Signing up on Facebook will add you to the party guestlist. Entry fee is a heavily subsidised £5 and entry is restricted to over 18s. It promises to be a 10th birthday party to remember! If you have any questions, please email me at chasemewiki at gmail.com.
The Contribution Team cordially invites you to Imperial College London
|For our first official recruitment drive! Starting on Wednesday the 9th of February at 12:30pm. We would love to have you!|
You are invited to the first Brighton Wiki Meetup which will take place at The West Quay, Brighton Marina Village, Brighton BN2 5UT on Sunday 28 April 2013 from 1.00 pm. If you have never been to one, this is an opportunity to meet other Wikipedians in an informal atmosphere for Wiki and non-Wiki related chat and for beer or food if you like. Experienced and new contributors are all welcome. This event is definitely not restricted just to discussion of Brighton topics. Bring your laptop if you like and use the free Wifi or just bring yourself. Even better, bring a friend! Click the link for full details. Looking forward to seeing you. Philafrenzy (talk) 20:54, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Low German (disambiguation)
Hello, Pfold. Your recent edits to Low German (disambiguation) show sensitivity to historical linguistic theories, but not to Wikipedia's style, particularly Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Disambiguation pages. Disambiguation pages are not articles; they are merely navigational aids. Such pages feature bullet lists of links to pages with potentially ambiguous names and sentence fragments describing those pages. I have rewritten the contentious point as follows:
- Low Germanic, term used by the German linguist Theo Vennemann in his controversial classification of the Germanic languages
I hope that this wording satisfies your concerns about potentially misleading information. It also satisfies Wikipedia's style by including only one link, using a redirect page rather than piping, and using a sentence fragment with no final punctuation. If the wording still seems misleading or otherwise inappropriate and you decide to rewrite it, please try to observe the standards of the MOS. Thanks, and happy editing. Cnilep (talk) 01:29, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
- P.S. You wrote in your edit summary, "the article linked to does not actually discuss the term, so this entry has to provide full information". Again, DAB pages are not articles. The full information belongs in the relevant section of High German consonant shift or perhaps in some other article, but not on a disambiguation page. Cnilep (talk) 01:32, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
You are correct that the poems outnumber the prose works, but these works are not romances. I am an expert on chivalric romance, especially the Spanish, author of Romances of Chivalry in the Spanish Golden Age (1982) and other works, and on the term "romance". If you want I'll give you the reference to the latter, it's a page-long footnote in my A Study of Don Quixote, which I don't have at hand right now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deisenbe (talk • contribs) 16:52, 13 August 2014 (UTC)