User talk:Pluto2012

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Disambiguation link notification for May 25[edit]

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Palestine[edit]

I notice you removed the map [Israel After 1949 Armistice Agreements] saying it was inaccurate. What is inaccurate about it? -Lciaccio (talk) 23:15, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Hello Lciaccio,
  • the size and shape of all demilitarised zones as well as the borders of Gaza and West Bank are wrong. This was certainly made by hand with paint without checking anything. Pluto2012 (talk) 15:45, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Just in case you missed it[edit]

Benny Morris Before the Kidnappings, There Was a Massacre. How the national trauma of Kfar Etzion helped bring Israeli Yeshiva boys to the West Bank Tablet magazine June 25, 2014 It's interesting that he only mentions Deir Yassin (and dozens of women and children, not the overall figure) to explain a reported shout at the Kfar Etzion massacre, and then philosophises as to why the Dawayima massacre occurred:-

In the Middle East, as perhaps elsewhere, massacres tend to breed counter-massacres; revenge is a basic value and fact of life. On Oct. 29, 1948, IDF troops of the 8th Brigade, 89th Battalion, conquered the Arab village of Dawayima

I ask myself, why did that not preface his introduction to the Kfar Etzion massacre (Deir Yassin bred it as a counter-massacre) but employs it to 'explain' why Jews murdered the inhabitants of Dawayima. It's is little things like this that tell me how to 'read' the depths behind Morris's otherwise commendably erudite histories. Best Nishidani (talk) 21:06, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi Nish,
Thank you for the link.
I don't think that Morris wants to "employ() [Kfar Etzion massacre] to 'explain' why Jews murdered the inhabitantsof Dawayima". The topic of his article is the events of '48 in the area of Kfar Etzion (and Hebron). I rather think that he wans to illustrate the "spiral of violence" mechanism. Others could even have claimed he wanted to minimize Kfar Etzion massacre in reporting a massacre of Arabs that preceeded it and another one that followed the Kfar Etzion one.
I think that Morris sometimes lack humanity in his reports and victims and massacres are just facts as others in his work.
Pluto2012 (talk) 14:14, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. I was showing more how a reader like myself takes his organization of material and priorities than proving anything about BM. It was used as background for the 2014 kidnapping of Israeli teens, which however because of the poverty of reactions to the Beitunia killings in May can't be contextualized. Deit Yassin-Kfar Etzion/Beitunia-2014 kidnapping. (Causes are never excuses, for anyside, of course. But grasping them with a cold eye attuned to the logic of events certainly is more illuminating than selective focus on one event to the detriment of the structure of events. In any case, I think this is certainly RS for the Kfar Etzion massacre, and will be a test for maintaining neutrality in reportage, since BM here certainly is far more dismissive of the other side's various POVs than he was, from memory, in his book accounts. But we can't be intimidtaed by that. RS are RS, whatever one's personal beliefs may be. Cheers friend.Nishidani (talk) 16:12, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

For the record[edit]

Reference Errors on 30 July[edit]

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Your advice on response to talk:Antisemitism[edit]

Hi Pluto2012,

What are your thoughts about raising the behaviour of VQuakr and Fleenier at talk:Antisemitism.

There's also User_talk:VQuakr#Category:Prejudice_and_discrimination_navigation which includes "This is a relevant question - is English your first language?"

Also: User_talk:Gregkaye#Your_level_of_involvement_at_Talk:Antisemitism giving private requests that I cut back contributions to the discussion.

any thoughts?

Gregkaye (talk) 21:23, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi,
I don't think much about this... I am not even sure to understand what is the issue... I suggest you just "ignore" what I would call "attempt of intimidiation" or "uncivility" (but without investing time to investigate) and I think you should go on commenting the way you like this discussion.
On the other, if I would close this discussion, my conclusion would be "no consensus" ; so I don't think either it's worth investing much time in it.
Pluto2012 (talk) 10:26, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice. I am just amazed and appalled at the extent to which people can be confrontational in public forums while adhering to extreme diplomacy in dialogue. Gregkaye (talk) 11:13, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Something funny[edit]

Joan Peters is an awesome intellectual. You'll see what I mean. Zerotalk 09:23, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Move review for Anti-Semitism:Requested move[edit]

Hi, I have asked for a move review, see Wikipedia:Move review#Anti-Semitism, pertaining to Anti-Semitism#Requested move. Because you were/are involved in the discussion/s for this page, or otherwise were interested in the page/topic, you might want to participate in the move review. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 08:47, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

inquiry[edit]

Cher ami I wonder if you could be so kind as to consult your copy of Morris, 1948: A History of the First Arab–Israeli War, p. 13 and if possible transcribe for me the context on 'After Saturday Sunday,' regarding it as 'popular during the revolt'. I don't think it has a footnote, but if it has I'd appreciate a note on that as well. I hope things are going well with you. Best regards Nishidani (talk) 16:23, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

This is the whole paragraph, pp. 12-13:
A major fault line ran between the Muslim majority and the generally more prosperous, better-educated Christians, who were concentrated in the large towns. The British authorities favored the Christians with contracts, permits, and jobs, further alienating the majority. Through the Mandate, and especially in such crisis periods as the Arab Revolt of 1936–1939 and 1947–1948, Muslims suspected Christians of collaborating with the “enemy” and secretly hoping for continued (Christian) British rule or even Zionist victory. These suspicions were expressed in slogans, popular during the revolt, such as “After Saturday, Sunday”—that is, that the Muslims would take care of the Christians after they had “sorted out” the Jews. This probably further alienated the Christians from Muslim political aspirations, though many, to be sure, kept up nationalist appearances. “The Christians [of Jaffa] had participated in the 1936–1937 disturbances under duress and out of fear of the Muslims. The Christians’ hearts now and generally are not with the rioting,” reported the Haganah Intelligence Service (HIS).17
A Haganah list from the mid-1940s of Arabs with a “tendency to cooperation with the Jews” included “many . . . Christians” but few Muslims.18
Ref.17: Talmi, “The Christians in Jaffa,” 2 May 1947, HA 105/193 bet.
Ref.18: Unsigned, “Arabs with a Tendency to Cooperation with the Jews,” undated, HA 105/54, where HA is Haganah Archive. In short: the only sources that Morris cites for this section, is the Haganah Archive. Hope this helps, Huldra (talk) 20:34, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, sweetie. I can hit the fartsack without the nagging nightmare of being 'stumped' for want of an answer, thanks to you. G'nite.Nishidani (talk) 20:47, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
Hi Huldra and Nishidani,
Even more widely, this "After Saterday, Sunday" is one of the arguments used by Benny Morris to argue that the 1948 war (and globally the I-P conflict) was not a nationalist conflict but was part of a "clash between civilisations". Indeed, in a nationalist conflict, the Palestinian Arabs would not have threatened other Arabs sharing the same nationality but not the same religion. In his approach, Christians and Jews were seen as representatives of the Western civilisation.
Useless to say that his thesis is not followed by his pairs. A reference article against this thesis is Yoav Gelber's review of Morris book: The Jihad that wasn't.
Pluto2012 (talk) 05:47, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
I am not very familiar with this story, but it seems like Gelber should be used in the After Saturday Comes Sunday-article, then? Cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:12, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Asselineau[edit]

Thank you for your help. No problem, I'll amend the templates in due time.

I am quite aware of the problem, which is why I mentioned I would need some time to fix the various sources (translated from the French article, with French templates). Moreover, some of the templates have no direct equivalent one between the two WPs.

Regards. --Azurfrog (talk) 12:33, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks again for your help all along on this difficult article. You may have noticed in the discussions that D0kkaebi is one of the leaders of Asselineau's UPR, as anyone can easily check, googling "UPR Lawren00" (Lawren00 is D0kkaebi's former identity here); hence some "reluctance" to amend the article, as always when WP:AUTO and WP:CoI have been violated. --Azurfrog (talk) 19:54, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
It might help if you keep in mind what a dokkaebi is, and where it comes from ;-)... --Azurfrog (talk) 19:54, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Nakba - Misuse of primary source[edit]

Dear Sir. The text I added to clarify the term Nakba has been removed under the explanation there is a misuse of a primary source.

Please advice onTzweinstein (talk) 18:03, 31 October 2014 (UTC) which such primary source is, so that I may remove it without affecting the remainder of the text.

Thank you

2014-12 traduction[edit]

Je crois que fr:Fonds national juif#Critique de la politique de reboisement mériterait d'être traduit en anglais (et réciproquement des critiques présentes dans Jewish National Fund pourraient être traduites en français). bonus Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 21:31, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Je vais jeter un coup d'oeil. Merci :-) Pluto2012 (talk) 17:19, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

REPLY FROM DALE STERN[edit]

 THANK YOU FOR YOUR CRITICISM, AS FOR THE POINTS YOU RAISE ;
 While studying Israeli wars, I came across Milsteins books. I saw that the man has a lot to say, AND, did/does his homework.
 His books are hard to find, though I see on Amazon that they go used for 2-3 times they`re original retail price. Clearly, there is
some interest in him, so when I first started using WIKIPEDIA I looked up his page to see what was available on him. There was basically
nothing, a little of this and a little of that, some of it having preciously little to do with him (such as his calling Yigal Amir a
good student). Personally, I think many things he says are ridiculous, but that should`nt prevent those interested in accessing
information about someone, especially someone who despite my opinion of some of his, is admittedly much smarter then me and practically
everyone else I`ve ever come across.     
 My first reaction was hasty and stupid. Immediately I began editing his page. But his total of printed book pages may total up to    
5-6000, and although the book on,say,the YOM KIPPUR WAR is not essential to an elementary understanding of him per se, still several
books [notably THE RABIN FILE, ON THIS WE DREAMED and THE SECURITY PRINCIPLE] ARE essential, and I did not at the time have a firm grasp
in them. Thus much of my edits were the more shocking things I well remembered, which do not much help the uninitiated in getting to 
know about him.
 I have since realized my mistake, and have taken the responsibility to enable anyone interested in him to get ALL RELEVANT INFORMATION
ON HIM, and am currently working on this by studying his books.
I am also working on the present references, though its slow going because, for instance, he sticks autobiographical information in THE
RABIN FILE, which makes it quite difficult to find, but I`m getting there.      
 As for his own lack of reliability, what shall I write when, as is usually the case, there`s no other source? How about quoting him
directly on it?  Thank youDale Stern (talk) 01:42, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Talkback[edit]

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Hello, Pluto2012. You have new messages at Northamerica1000's talk page.
Message added 11:12, 14 December 2014 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

NorthAmerica1000 11:12, 14 December 2014 (UTC)