User talk:Prairieplant

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Additions to The Hermit of Eyton Forest by Ellis Peters[edit]

I just wrote a Plot Summary for this novel. It is so long! I hope some others who read this novel by Ellis Peters will see how to make the summary a bit shorter. The character list needs to be made, too. I included all the characters in my summary except I forgot the first name of Drogo Bosiet's son.

I was logged in while doing the summary, but somehow got logged off before I completed my summary. So it was not attributed to me in the History. Rather to 70.131.63.62 and I cannot figure how to change that to Prairieplant. Prairieplant (talk) 16:04, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

I did add a sentence at the top -- all there was, with a very terse list of the elements of this novel. All except treason. That might tell the story before it is read. Prairieplant (talk) 22:59, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Now I have added a List of Characters, Themes and Setting in History, Reviews, and references, after reading the novel again, in sequence of the Cadfael Chronicles. The reviews were interesting. I cannot figure how to get the image of the cover in place -- such a good cover, too. I hope someone else knows how to do that. Surprised myself with all this writing, hope someone else reads it. Prairieplant (talk) 15:56, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

After the Funeral by Agatha ChristiePrairieplant (talk) 06:30, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[edit]

In the info box for After the Funeral, the Author's name does not show up. After Author in bold, we see only { {author} } where I expected Agatha Christie to show. I do not see this error in the info box, so cannot fix it. I hope someone else can fix that small error. Prairieplant (talk) 06:30, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

It April 4 now, and that error is still present. Some bot went over the text, but I saw no improvements. This is the line that presumably includes the text yielding {{{author}}} instead of Agatha Christie as the author. I do not know how to fix this -- does anyone else? {{infobox book |


I made changes to the Plots Summary, Characters, Themes, but wikipedia logged me out while I was making them in January, so they are not marked as mine. What is the time limit for doing an edit? I do not mean to be skulking in my edits! Now I have logged myself in for 30 days so I will not get logged off while I write something.

The Clocks by Agatha Christie[edit]

Prairieplant (talk) 01:04, 9 March 2012 (UTC) I typed Londong instead of London in the title of one of my changes. Sorry! Cool story, I thought. Definite 1960s flavor in it, and the mood of the Cold War, added to a murder mystery, murder for greed, a frequent motive.

The Virgin in the Ice, other Ellis Peters novels[edit]

Starting the Plot Summary with the series summary is redundant, in each novel. Having the List of Characters allows Cadfael to be described, and reference made to the entry on Cadfael in wikipedia.

Plus, sometimes in looking up a story, I want to see the character names without reading the plot summary. This is especially helpful to me when I listen to an audio book and want to know the spelling of a character's name. The plot should not be told in the Character List, I agree with the person who took out my effort on that. But it was not true that everything in the Character List was found in the Plot Summary.

Most of the other Ellis Peters Brother Cadfael stories have a Character List, so this keeps them consistent for this 20 book series.Prairieplant (talk) 07:27, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Supporting change in Plot summary, that Cadfael was on foot across the frozen stream, seeing what the boy could not see, still seated on the horse. Then went back again, alone, as boy and horse waited for him. The boy crossed the same stream; it could be a secret from him only if he could not see through the ice as Cadfael did. This is the end of Chapter 3:

The second brook, still and silent like the rest, was a shallow, reed-fringed, meandering serpent of silver. The horse disliked the feel of the ice under him, and Cadfael dismounted again to lead him over. The wide, glassy surface shone opaque from every angle, except when looking directly down into it, and Cadfael was watching his own foothold as he crossed, for his boots were worn and smooth. Thus his eye caught, for a moment only, the ghostly pallor beneath the ice to his left, before the horse slithered and recovered, hoisting himself into the snowy grass on the further side.

Cadfael was slow to recognize, slower to believe, what he had seen. Half an hour later, and he would not have been able to see it at all. Fifty paces on, with a thicket of bushes between, he halted, and instead of remounting, as Yves expected, put the bridle into the boy's hands, and said with careful calm: "Wait a moment for me. No, we need not turn off yet, this is not the place where the tracks divide. Something I noticed there. Wait!"

Yves wondered, but waited obediently, as Cadfael turned back to the frozen brook. The pallor had been no illusion from some stray reflected gleam, it was there fixed and still, embedded in the ice. He went down on his knees to look more closely.

The short hairs rose on his neck. Not a yearling lamb, as he had briefly believed it might be. Longer, more shapely, slender and white. Out of the encasing, glassy stillness a pale, pearly oval stared up at him with open eyes. Small, delicate hands had floated briefly before the frost took hold, and hovered open at her sides, a little upraised as if in appeal. The white of her body and the white of her torn shift which was all she wore seemed to Cadfael to be smirched by some soiling color at the breast, but so faintly that too intent staring caused the mark to shift and fade. The face was fragile, delicate, young.

A lamb, after all. A lost ewe-lamb, a lamb of God, stripped and violated and slaughtered. Eighteen years old? It could well be so.

By this token, Ermina Hugonin was at once found and lost.

Hope this is persuasive. Prairieplant (talk) 09:23, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Not really. Is it truly a vital, indispensible plot element that Cadfael got off a horse? What was wrong with "As they cross a frozen stream, Cadfael sees the body of a young woman frozen into the ice. Fearing it is that of Ermina, he conceals his discovery from Yves." I'll let the present version stand, but it is important not to bloat plot summaries with unnecessary details. HLGallon (talk) 10:12, 6 May 2012 (UTC)


Well, I think it is an essential plot point, given the book's title, and the line in the above text that the ice was opaque from all angles other than standing right above it. The gruesome image was seen due to the need to walk the skittish horse, while he was searching the likely area. Protecting the boy is typical of Cadfael, as is being quiet about what he learns before it can be properly digested, used, as is his combination of chance and skill in finding clues as well as missing people.

The other way of saying it left me remembering how the boy sat in front of Cadfael on the horse, and wouldn't they both see the same thing, from the same vantage point? How could he conceal what lay open to view? That is why I noticed the sentence. I appreciate you letting it stand.

I may yet be stinging from your description of my two to three sentence plot summary at the top as lurid, blurb style, or something like that. My one and only attempt to write a "blurb" for a friend was a dismal failure; too dry. Dry description is more my strong suit. Your reason to delete the very short summary did startle me. Your strong aversion to the very brief summary led me not to revise what I wrote.

Yes, of course these summaries need to be terse yet clear, and pick up the points on which the plot turns. In mystery stories, pick up the points that lead the detective to find the resolution, which is as important as the name of the character who did the crime. Prairieplant (talk) 14:58, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

To quote the original intro: "Is there safety to be found, travelling from one Benedictine monastery to another? Political chaos leads to civil chaos, catching up a brother, sister and her tutor in life and death confrontations beyond their once-sheltered lives. Treating a brother at a neighboring abbey, Brother Cadfael solves both the murder of the most innocent and the guilt of the suffering, while the civil forces restore order." This strikes me as the sort of thing which might be written by sensationalist publishers on the inside leaf or back of a dust jacket. It is inaccurate in some respects, and too vague in others. ("Brother" refers both to a monk and a brother by blood. What are "civil forces"?) By all means add a dry intro, briefly describing the book's publishing details, spin-offs and, if a reliable review can be found and cited, the book's major themes. HLGallon (talk) 16:05, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

I looked for reviews but had no luck, not on web sites by book lovers, or in newspapers.

I see, two meanings for small b brother. Civil forces are the sheriff, not the army. Well, another try might distill the story. Those are contrasts and story tensions I saw. You call it sensationalist. Well, try for a middle course.

I am not much expert on publishing details. I see, only one reissue date is supplied, not the original. The television and radio programs are already mentioned. It is the short introduction that lacks -- which I can contribute. Prairieplant (talk) 13:19, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Once again, I edited the plot summary to fix problems, only to find myself reverted to your last version. I must insist that the following features must be addressed:
  • Dates; most of these are not mentioned anywhere in the novel, and to impose them is puahing original research, whether the calculations are correct or not. Nor are they really relevant. "As the first snowstorms of winter ..." is descriptive, and indeed an anchor point for the narrative at several points in the book. "... on 5 December" is meaningless.
  • "... proving to be nine days." OR again, and not relevant.
  • "Cadfael dismounts to lead the horse..." unnecessary detail, and glimpse of the blindingly obvious. "As Cadfael leads the horse..." saves verbiage.
  • "...Hugh Beringar has arrived in response to his message." What message? No message has been mentioned anywhere.
  • "At the hut, Elyas talks in his sleep." And says what? Nowhere is it made clear that he appears to confess to murder. "At Bromfield, Yves tells Cadfael what Elyas said." is still meaningless.
  • "Dinan recognises the brigand leader as Alain le Gaucher." Who or what is le Gaucher? The reader should not have to leave the summary to read the potted biographies underneath to find out.
  • "Boterel arrives at Bromfield to reclaim property." What property? "... a stolen horse." is a mere two extra words and far better description. Instead of property, Boterel might as will have arrived to reclaim stuff, or things.
OK, at 1301 words, the plot is longer than recommended, but it is a long and complicated plot, and it is awkward to summarise without losing important details. HLGallon (talk) 20:49, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

HLGallon, I thought we had talked this all out before. Making the plot summary longer is pointless. All good books have complex plots; our task is to trim out what we can and leave a reasonable summary. Longer novels than this have summaries that meet the Wikipedia standards. I appreciate how much you love this particular book. I like it too. But it needs a shorter Plot summary, not a longer one. WP:PLOTSUM

I am sorry to see that you put all those words back. They are not an improvement to the Plot summary, and a bit of an insult to me.

There is no original research, the dates are in the text, and you can read the book again to see that. You make that accusation rather easily, without checking the text yourself. That is how I knew the story happened in nine days, from the dates given. I went through to eliminate things said twice. Any change that makes it longer is a bad change at this point in my thinking. I hope we can agree on that. 1,300 words is close to double the guidelines. I got it down a little. The real edit it needs is not to include all the complexities but to relay the main threads of the story. Shorter Plot summaries than this one have been flagged for length by other editors. I think this one would read better if it were shorter. The book is rich with details, but there are main threads in the story. I hope we can agree on changes if they are shorter, more concise. Have a good night or good day! --Prairieplant (talk) 01:42, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

The Devil's NovicePrairieplant (talk) 06:30, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[edit]

The term squire in the 12th century referred to an aide or young man in training in the service of a knight.

The meaning of squire as a country landowner was not current until several hundred years later.

A man who owned a manor and lands surrounding it was called lord of the manor. Thus, it is not correct to call Leoric Aspley a country squire. His family was long in the area, from the Saxon days (that is, before Wiliam the Conqueror and his power over land ownership). Leoric Aspley was successful, as shown in his being called a generous patron of the Abbey by Abbot Radulfus. In discussing son Nigel settling in a manor further north upon his marriage, Nigel was described as seeing his lording.


Bucolic is not the opposite of prosperous. Throughout the story, Abbot Radulfus gives this family special attention because the generous donations to the Abbey made by Leoric Aspley. The finery of the wedding is marked as well above the common, suitable to a prosperous manor. All of England was bucolic in the 12th century; London had under 20,000 people.


The Sanctuary Sparrow by Ellis Peters[edit]

The story takes place in a week, from after midnight the night of a Friday wedding to dawn on Saturday one week later. "The winter had been hard indeed, but was blessedly over, the sun had shone on Easter Day, and continued shining ever since, with only light, scattered showers to confirm the blessing. "

The days of the week are in turn described as matching the statement above (from the 4th paragraph of Ch.1) about the lovely weather. The boy does not enter the Abbey for a few more paragraphs. Thus it is Ellis Peters who says it was a lovely night in May when the story began.


Can someone explain the AnomieBot? I found a spot-on definition of a jongleur in 12th century England. I used the link in the plot summary, and again in the description of the character Liliwin who is a jongleur. The link works in both cases. What is the objection, why does the link "fail"? Cannot talk to a bot, I guess.Prairieplant (talk) 16:18, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

An Excellent Mystery by Ellis Peters[edit]

I removed this intriguing review because the link is not valid in Aug 2012. I did search at Nan Hawthorne's newer blogs, and cannot find reference to any Ellis Peters reviews. Perhaps someone else can find it?

"A more recent review can be found at "That's All She Read With Nan Hawthorne" "I don't think I have ever read a sweeter love story. You will just have to read it to see what I mean. It is, indeed, an excellent mystery."[1] /Blog no longer at URL, Aug 1, 2012/" Prairieplant (talk) 05:33, 4 August 2012 (UTC) References

  1. ^ Nan Hawthorne (22). "That's All She Read With Nan Hawthorne". That's All She Read With Nan Hawthorne. blogspot.com. p. 1. Retrieved 16 April 2009. 

The Raven in the Foregate by Ellis Peters[edit]

This page was nearly bare, so I did plot summary, list of characters, theme and setting in history, and even found some of the critical reception. The last, not from newspapers of the time, but on line blogs and Kirkus Reviews. Not sure how to find those original reviews, when it was published. Added reflist and external sources. Accurate, but not as concise as I would like to be.

Still missing -- commentary on the herbal recipes given in this book; more about the television adaptation, which I did not see. Was its plot the same as the book? Altered slightly or a lot? If someone else knows, it would be great if they add that. Also, an image of the book cover. I cannot quite figure how to do that, even if it seems simple to do fair use from an Amazon cover image. Hoping someone else can do it easily.

Finding the French version of the title (wings of the raven) made clear the meaning of the title -- simply that the tall and dark haired Father Ailnoth, in his priestly garb and walking rapidly, looks like a raven as he stalked past Brother Cadfael near the Abbey, on the way to his death. Ravens have so much symbolism, hard to know if any specific symbolism was meant.

Prairieplant (talk) 04:23, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


The Leper of Saint Giles[edit]

This is text from Chapter 1 of the book, mentioning Empress Maud and the setting relative to the activities of the Anarchy:

It was a large house, well walled round, with garden and orchard behind, and it belonged to Roger de Clinton, bishop of Coventry, though he rarely used it himself. The loan of it to Huon de Domville, who held manors in Shropshire, Cheshire, Stafford and Leicester, was partly a friendly gesture towards Abbot Radulfus, and partly a politic compliment to a powerful baron whose favor and protection, in these times of civil war, it would be wise to cultivate. King Stephen might be in firm control of much of the country, but in the west the rival faction was strongly established, and there were plenty of lords ready and willing to change sides if fortune blew the opposite way. The Empress Maud had landed at Arundel barely three weeks previously, with her half-brother Robert, earl of Gloucester, and a hundred and forty knights, and through the misplaced generosity of the king, or the dishonest advice of some of his false friends, had been allowed to reach Bristol, where her cause was impregnably installed already. Here in the mellow autumn countryside everything might seem at peace, but for all that men walked warily and held their breath to listen for news, and even bishops might need powerful friends before all was done.

Supports mention in the wiki.

Prairieplant (talk) 14:10, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Original research[edit]

Please read WP:SYNTHESIS and WP:OR. The historical facts have no place in the article unless you can provide 3rd party coverage about the books that talk about the period of the time. GimliDotNet (Speak to me,Stuff I've done) 14:23, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

I did read both of those Wikipedia guides, and modified what I wrote to fit it, by adding sources. Third party sources. Including many wikipedia entries. except your actions cancelled my writing as I was doing it. Give a person a chance to do their edits!

Prairieplant (talk) 15:42, 27 September 2012 (UTC)


Edits to Cadfael Articles[edit]

Please refrain from using blogs for reviews. Articles require WP:NOTABLE sources, not random individuals. I've just had to remove who swaves of content from A Morbid Tate for Bones. GimliDotNet (Speak to me,Stuff I've done) 07:44, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

User:GimliDotNet I cited that blog because he had the top 100 list posted there. Wikipedia has the list posted, but it is a red link, confusing to me. I can reach it from google search results but not inside an article.

There are many blogs or sites that post that UK list. What is your guideline which one I can use so people can see the list? Do I use one as a source, with no mention in the text? For the US writers list, I found it on a public library site in the US. You accepted that one. The published source (on paper) of each list was in the External References.

One reviewer you dropped, named Cecily Felber, is an author who writes in the same time period and geography (Wales and Shropshire) as Ellis Peters. She posts her reviews on Goodreads. In one such post, she remarked that the Peters book inspired her to write her own. I had a footnote for the webpage with her and her book -- link provided by another person HLGallon. Why did you delete her?

Philip Grosset has a web site where he reviews "clerical detetctives" exclusively. Why is he not Notable in the eyes of Wikipedia? Are all blogs not Notable by definition?

What is wrong with Kirkus Reviews? Full time business is reviewing books, since 1933. Sometimes favorable, sometimes not.

Once in a while I can find Publishers Weekly and Library Journal, but not for every book. I have not figured how to get reviews from newspapers (which would come out when the books was published, therefore in their archives) or major mystery magazines.

Trying to learn.

I am curious how A Morbid Taste for Bones got on both those lists (US and UK), and I cannot yet find other reviews to match the high esteem of the mystery and crime writers. Out there, not found.

PS Thanks for following up on your own suggestion, on placement of the reference to stories with adaptation for television. My time had been spent putting content in the wikipedia entry for that year in British televion. The wiki links were useless with no mention of the date the show first aired on ITV in the UK. Got those from IMDb, the dates.

Not sure how to tell you that I have questions.

Prairieplant (talk) 15:49, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Notable sources are generally published works by established organisations. Personal blogs, Goodreads etc are not reliable. It is difficult to find links for Cadfael books as they are not recent (therefore pre-dating the reviews on the website) it is better for the project to have a couple of good links than a whole section of blogs GimliDotNet (Speak to me,Stuff I've done) 16:54, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Good work on the two new reviews on A Morbid Taste for Bones, the Kirkus one is especially excellent. GimliDotNet (Speak to me,Stuff I've done) 16:56, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Wikiproject Novels[edit]

There is a project where editors work together that you might be interested in. WP:NOVELS is the link. I've joined it yesterday. GimliDotNet (Speak to me,Stuff I've done) 18:01, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

User: GimliDotNet I looked at it, not sure I am up to being part of the project. Still working on Cadfael series. Can you look at The Summer of the Danes entry? Plot summary is not the longest, but one contributor puts back details. I do not want argument. I put an alternative Plot Summary in my sandbox, but will not put it in the entry, as HLGallon will not like his/her words removed. Can this discussion about NOVELS and SHORT PLOT SUMMARIES and THIRD PARTY VIEWS of the novel include HLGallon too?

Prairieplant (talk) 18:24, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

The Heretic's Apprentice by Ellis Peters[edit]

I put up a plot summary just now.

Longer than four paragraphs, but shorter than the summary of Our Mutual Friend, the last, longest and most complex novel by Charles Dickens.  :-) Now even that impressive wiki entry is rated just B class (hard masters, these wiki raters).

I will re-read the novel to hear if there are errors to correct. I guess four paragraphs is beyond my scope!

Another day, it needs Setting in History to get some of those valued references added to the entry. Room to talk about heresy and heretics in 12th century England, or Europe, as I skipped all of the specific heresies and point-counterpoint dialogue in the summary. Perhaps also there is room for some discussion of seven year pilgrimages to the Holy Land by men in their 70s.

Prairieplant (talk) 22:54, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

It has one quarter the word count of the Plot Summary for The Hermit of Eyton Forest, staying with Ellis Peters and Brother Cadfael. Is that any sort of accomplishment for a wiki article hoping to be "encylopedic"?

Prairieplant (talk) 23:04, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

The plot summary is a very small part of what makes the article encyclopedic, in theory an article that is just plot can be deleted because it is not notable, what's important is the amount of reliable 3rd parties talking about the item in question. There is a guideline you may not have seen, it is called WP:INUNIVERSE, personally I still struggle to get my head around it but it basically sums up my point. GimliDotNet (Speak to me,Stuff I've done) 05:16, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

I suppose not having the text immediately taken down is the only 'thanks' on wikipedia! I read the links you recommended and a few more. All the way to reading the entry for To Kill A Mockingbird as a perfect example.

Over my head, that kind of writing! I suppose I will keep trying. There is an example using Little Red Ridinghood, of how to pick the major plot and main themes, and not necessarily in the order of the plot. I do like to stick to chronology; so many challenges! I get the part about writing in the present tense and not in the world of the novel. All I do is think of extreme Star Trek fans, who live inside the show, cannot talk about it normally to understand that point. How to do that with a mystery story, still to learn.

Our Mutual Friend/Sinebot[edit]

Sinebot is a robot that automatically adds signatures when the editor forgets. It doesn't check the additions in any way. So what happened here is that someone vandalised the article (but did not sign the change) and the robot added the signature before anyone had a chance to undo the damage. PRL42 (talk) 18:07, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining. The vandalism is gone now, the main point. Prairieplant (talk) 06:32, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Cleeton[edit]

Hi - I've replied to your question regarding Cleeton on the Talk:Cleehill page. David (talk) 13:51, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Vale[edit]

I've tweaked the page and replied to you at Talk:Vale#Where_is_vale_as_valley.2C_other_than_this_disambiguation_page.3F. PamD 19:24, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, excellent job, much clearer. Prairieplant (talk) 19:50, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Minor edits[edit]

Information icon Thank you for your contributions. Please remember to mark your edits as "minor" only if they truly are minor edits. In accordance with Help:Minor edit, a minor edit is one that the editor believes requires no review and could never be the subject of a dispute. Minor edits consist of things such as typographical corrections, formatting changes or rearrangement of text without modification of content. Additionally, the reversion of clear-cut vandalism and test edits may be labeled "minor". Thank you. --John (talk) 09:22, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

So the tedious efforts to shorten the Plot Summaries, each of them are major edits. Tedious to me, trying to edit what others have assembled, most of the time. I think I understand this now. Thanks.Prairieplant (talk) 09:49, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Top Crime Novels[edit]

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Hello, Prairieplant. You have new messages at Talk:The Top 100 Crime Novels of All Time.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.
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I responded to you over there.
Also, on your User page, it is conventional to use Babel to show what languages you speak, for example, native speaker of English, and student of Tibetan.
Cheers, 99.237.143.219 (talk) 20:40, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I added the Babel box to my user page. I never noticed that before. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.Prairieplant (talk) 00:19, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Olivier Charbonneau[edit]

Hi,
Thanks for the translations of Olivier Charbonneau. Peter Horn User talk 04:09, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

agatha christie edits[edit]

I have only today discovered the talk page/messages you left for me. That function is not obvious, even though I use Wikipedia almost daily.

Of course I had no idea about the rules you cite for summaries. Surely you can figure out some way to pop them up when the edit function is selected. As with the other Rules.

The length limit makes no sense, especially since storage is free, and I suppose that one reads the Summary of a novel to understand the plot; otherwise a Plot Introduction would suffice. The logic of her often-complicated mystery novels only make sense in a longer format.


I have no interest or time to shorten these summaries. The prior ones are very deficient in logic, in content, and often make mistakes. Some other reader will have to undertake subsequent corrections.


I find Wikipedia to be immensely helpful, and have been a financial contributor. I'm not sure about your role there, but if you are this patient in explaining things to me, you must be making a good contribution to w worthy cause.


NYResident (talk) 19:16, 13 February 2014 (UTC)Jim in Rye Brook

I replied on your talk page, as that is where the discussion began. Yes, there are many features of Wikipedia to uncover, at least that is what I have slowly learned. --Prairieplant (talk) 01:27, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

/* Olivier Charbonneau */ well I did a bit of tidying[edit]

I did a bit of tidying up at Olivier Charbonneau, sorry je m'excuse it has taken me six months to get round to this... I thought it best to revert it as I was in the middle of the translation when life intervened and so I left it a right mess and didn't have time to revert it even. Also my comments at User:Peter Horn's talk page probably seemed a bit harsh on French Canadians but were left in a hurry and were meant a bit tongue in cheek, they were not meant to be a put-down on French Canadians (or indeed English Canadians or anyone else).

The "sewer cleaner" is really a struggle to translate, "ditch cleaner"? I am really not sure how best to translate that. I just did a bit of tidying up and I can quite understand why you left the French in but I have translated that as a first pass but usually when I do a first pass translate then it is not very good English so could probably do with some polishing.

I am very sorry if I accidentally offended you with my off-the-cuff remarks about French Canadians, my intent was to make the article better and life intervened but it is certainly not my intention ever to offend anyone. I am sure you know I actually translated La Corriveau, a famous French Canadian, and got her to Good Article status, so it is not my business to go around insulting people (although she seemed quite good at it!) Si Trew (talk) 12:33, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

SimonTrew, when I encountered the page it was mainly in French so I gave a try at translation. We decided to leave the French until others who felt strong enough in French and English gave it a review, and now you have done that. How do we add the the tag that the page is mainly translated from French Wikipedia? Seems we need to know the version number you used to start the English version. The tag might look like this, is it close? Except that version number is a complete fabrication. Back on 6 August 2013, Peter Horn marked on the French page that the English Wikipedia page had been set up. Where does one find the proper version number?

between double curly brackets translated page|fr|Olivier Charbonneau |version=45069858

I wondered also about the references that are deadlinks. Are there live links to use in their place? The links are dead from either version of Wikipedia. We have a red linked name in the English article Pierre Dagenets, but I see there is no link in French Wikipedia either, so I will just remove those brackets.

I do not feel insulted by any of the work you did. Glad you did it, mainly. --Prairieplant (talk) 22:00, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Although obviously this is not the right place to put it, I insert it here so you can kinda copy-paste it for future reference (please deleted it because obviously this is not a translated page).
{{translated page|fr|Olivier Charbonneau|version=45069858|insertversion=573975874|small=no}}, that is where I lost it when someone scraped my car so I think that is reasonable, I'lll stick that on its talk page. I'll come back to read the rest of this later but it needs that for WP:COPYVIO so I shall do that first and thank you. I can't even speak French any more since I have been learnging Hungarian all day and I knwo it sounds ridiculous but I can't remember the French for thank you, it kinda gets "blocked" but at least, Kosszonem (thank you) Si Trew (talk) 22:36, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
Merci. I remembered. It is just weird it kinda gets blocked when I am speaking or learning Hungarian the French my brain kinda blocks it. Si Trew (talk) 22:40, 5 March 2014 (UTC)ha
I don't know how others do it, but I find the version number by going to the history of the page and then doing a diff between one version and another, then in the URL you have both version numbers. But I don't know how others do it, I am old fashioned and have the URL on my browser being the real URL and not some nice 'n' tidy URL. But that's how I do it. If you hover over the differences or look at the history page, it does also come up as a wossname, yellow little sticky note thing (let alone losing French it appears I am losing English) but that is the way I do it, but it is still a bit of a fiddle. Thanks, merci bien the corrections/copy edits you made, it is always rather stilted in English the first time cos I forget to reverse adjective order, and that kind of thing. Si Trew (talk) 22:56, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
I checked out all the links I think, and that is why I marked a couple as dead links. THe others that are live I improved the referencing style, but I will check again in case I missed one. Si Trew (talk) 23:00, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

SimonTrew, thanks for showing me the easy way to find version numbers. Yes, they show nicely in the URL in the History list. You speak English and French and are learning Hungarian! It will be interesting at what point you feel comfortable with all your languages. So the translation template goes on the Talk page, not on the article page. I am learning new things all the time. I love that these articles on New France and its settlers are getting into English language Wikipedia, and then get strengthened (that is, taking the British bias out of the history type articles, which is much slower than your translation of Olivier Charbonneau). Such a grand story, I think, the settling of New France. Do you think we need to keep those dead links in the article? How long does a dead one stay there, before it is buried, I guess that is my question. I did hunt around a wee bit for some substitute reference, and found nothing, but my little search was just a toe in the waters. --Prairieplant (talk) 23:13, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

I would keep the dead links since you never know, someone might find a better link for them via an archive site or something, I just didn't have too much time to do it, and being in Hungary when I Google (Or other search engine) I get a different set of targeted results than probably someone in Quebec would. What is really annoyihg with Google and Bing is that (I don't know if the Wikimedia software pushes them over or what) nowadays as soon as you type even a stub article it immediately appears as the top hit on those engines, at least for me, which actually hinders finding more research to fill in the articles.
Hungarian isn't particularly difficult it is just a bit of a language island, it is not Latinate or Slavic or Germanic etc, so that I constantly find myself either slipping into French or Arabic even rather than using Hungarian words, it is just my brain kinda trying to tie it all together on the road to fluency, I will get there. It's like people say "Chinese is difficult", well about a billion Chinese people seem to manage it wihout too much problem. Si Trew (talk) 07:17, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
It doesn't have to go on the talk page, it can go on the article page itself, but it's a bit ugly to clutter the top of an article with all these kinds of boxes.
The {{translated page}} template was changed a few years ago and without the "small=no" it comes up as a tiny box, which to me just looks really ugly and also when there are other boxes on the talk page saying it's part of WikiProject New France or whatever then it gets rather hidden away and I think it just looks ugly, it's not that one wants to boast about the translation but other editors deserve to be able to see the information, I objected when the "small" came in to the default being changed thus the tag on lots of articles created before the change had their talk pages essentially changed by that, but I didn't win that one so that is how it stands. Si Trew (talk) 07:28, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
One of the main problems I have with translating from French Wikipedia is it has a very different style. Especially in biographies etc but any history article, it is always "unfortunately" this or "pleasingly" that etc, whereas English WP is much more kinda abrupt facts and that rather than these kinda bits of opinion. That is not criticising FR:WP I am sure that seems natural there, but in English WP it is much more kinda straight facts and none of this colouring, so all that has to be kind of taken out. Si Trew (talk) 07:32, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
Okay, we keep the dead links until we or someone finds better links. I think Talk page is the right place for the translation notice, as readers in English will not so much care how the article got its start; it is others who care about that point and they can read a Talk page. A book in the news lately mentions another search engine that does not keep a record of past searches, so it needs different search strings, and might come up with more of the results you seek. I have not tried it myself, yet, but am intrigued about the balance between convenience of google "remembering" things about me, like generally where I am and what I might ordinarily seek to learn, and a search that ignores all that. It is DuckDuckGo, of course with a link on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DuckDuckGo . Then again, I get radically different results with google searches when I make what seem small changes to my search strings.
My issues with translation from French to English, my competency being one step below yours, is to get subject and verb straight, like who is the niece and who is the aunt. I got one of those right I think, while you corrected another, where my effort missed the point. The value of multiple editors. Well, the one other country in which I have interest now, they would say Hvala lepa for your efforts. (Slovenia) --Prairieplant (talk) 16:35, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Standard of living in the Gilded Age[edit]

You asked about compating standard of living. Historian Peter Shergold (an Australian) has taken the economists' definition of standard of living and cost of living and compared two major steel cities (Pittsburgh in US and Birmingham in England). He first estimated annual incomes for skilled and unskilled workers in each city. He looked at actual family budgets in the two cities. He found the local prices for each basket item (pounds in England and dollars in US). The standard of living is what an average family could and did actually purchase every year (food, housing, clothes, leisure, etc). He found that American skilled workers could purchase about a 65% bigger basket of these goods than their English counterparts, while the baskets for unskilled workers were about the same for the two cities. Shergold's is the standard scholarly work & is often cited. --as shown by google citations. Rjensen (talk) 00:25, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Rjensen. Then I suppose my small changes to the sentence were correct. 65% more stuff, including food, that is a lot! The Gilded Age article is interesting, first time I happened on it today. So much happened in those years, I can see. I had not thought about the meaning of Gilded as being a bit an insult, just a veneer of gold, hiding less desirable events. Hoping to return to the article, soak up more. --Prairieplant (talk) 03:27, 20 March 2014 (UTC)