User talk:Sam Spade/ - archive/Dezember 2005

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User talk:Sam Spade/ - archive[edit]


"Education: the inculcation of the incomprehensible into the indifferent by the incompetent."
John Maynard Keynes


User:Sam Spade/Art and artists

Arbitration filed naming you[edit]

Please be advised that today I filed an arbitration case naming you. It can be found at Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Nobs01_and_others_acting_in_concert.--Cberlet 21:36, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


FYI - I believe Jayjg has a strong prejudice towards CBerlet in this case. I'm accordingly asking for his recusal. [1]

Good luck, did you see how my request for an arbiter to recuse went in the silverback case? And she had been recently insulting him... I expect no recusals, and nothing approaching a fair trial. Sam Spade 15:26, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Universal reconciliation and Second Awakening[edit]

Please see Talk:Universal reconciliation - I think the text in question was entered by you and I could not reconstruct where you got it from. Irmgard 10:13, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Norse mythology naming convention vote notice[edit]

A new proposal on the representation of Norse mythology names is now up for a vote. Some people object to it on the grounds that it would use non-English characters in some article titles. It would be interesting to hear your view since you've commented on related votes in the past. I'm advertising this somewhat widely since people seem to feel that a wide participation in the vote gives the policy more legitimacy.

Have you, btw, seen Halibutt's RFA yet? Not a pretty sight. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 00:51, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Article Rating Experiment[edit]

Hi! (I'm back. :-D ) What do you think of this? Tom Haws 06:20, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Opinions may vary. :-D I understand. Tom Haws 03:53, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Latest picture in SH article[edit]

Sam, it's stupid picture. In SH article it looks like intentional vandalism. It should be moved to more proper place. Vugluskr 16:08, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Who are you, and what do you know about Wikipedia:Vandalism? Do not make such accusations in the future, its no way to make a first impression. Sam Spade 16:15, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Adi Shankara[edit]

Sam Spade, I wonder if you might wish to remove the personal comment from your last addition to Talk:Adi Shankara? Comment on content, not on the contributor (official policy). The balance of your comment does not seem to refer to the history of the Adi Shankara dispute, unless I'm mistaken. In my review of this dispute, I saw no record that Mel Etitis "revert[ed] [a third party] out of hand and left a nasty note on [his or her] talk page". Thank you. Walter Siegmund (talk) 17:51, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Arbitration accepted[edit]

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Nobs01 and others has been accepted. Please place evidence at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Nobs01 and others/Evidence. You may make proposals and comment on proposals at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Nobs01 and others/Workshop. Fred Bauder 19:44, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Fascism and ideology[edit]

[copied from User talk:Jmabel]
Don't make comments like this, such disrespect makes communication useless. Sam Spade 00:06, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
[end copied remark]

Sam, no insult intended. Are you saying that you are an expert on the Republic of Fiume (or, I suppose more properly, the Italian Regency of Carnaro)? I don't think I've seen you write three sentences on the subject. If you have, please, direct me to them, and I will stand corrected. We don't have an article on the topic, just a few remarks in passing in our article on Gabriele D'Annunzio (where your contributions are minimal, and don't touch on this subject) and stubs at Constitution of Fiume and Alceste de Ambris (to which you did not contribute). Am I missing something? I would have presumed, perhaps incorrectly, that if this was an area of expertise for you that you would have written on it in Wikipedia. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:35, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I am not an expert, lacking citable credentials, but I know a great deal about the incident, yes. I have written extensively based on my knowledge of the subject on several pages regarding the socialist or syndacalist underpinnings of fascism, and the close relationship between fascism and anarchism. When in doubt, assume good faith, rather than that another is lying. If your interested in giving fascism a thorough and balanced, non-partisan examination, you have alot to learn. I'd be glad to help :) Sam Spade 00:59, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Might I suggest, in all seriousness, that if you know a lot about the topic, that we could really use a solid, factual article on the actual events, which we lack? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:10, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Fascism has socialist underpinnings? That rather flies in the face of most accepted ideas of political science. Can I have a link to these articles? Kade 02:28, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: Civility[edit]

I read what you said on Dunc's talk page. If you will refer to his backlog of discussion archives, you will see that he has crossed the line of civility on more than one occassion recently; do you have any suggestion as to how this should be addressed? He is blatantly ignoring polite requests to extend respect and courtesy to fellow Wikipedians. Bahn Mi 20:54, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Your next step in the Wikipedia:Dispute Resolution process is a RfC. I am a Members advocate, and would be willing to help you w that process if need be. Have a look at the above pages, and let me know if you need help or explanations. Cheers, Sam Spade 20:57, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Thank you Sam. The entire process appeared too exhausting for my taste, but it appears that someone else has initiated an RFC at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Duncharris, and I wanted to bring it to your attention should you wish to comment on the evidence or any of the outside views. Bahn Mi 05:11, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


Thank you for your welcome. I'm an active user on the french wikipedia, and here, I'll try to improve or create some english articles related to France or french culture. A bientôt. Kuxu 02:30, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Wonderful! I'm driving to southern france tomorrow in a Mercedes-Benz C-Class (a rental ;) Maybe I'll run into you at a cafe :)
Sam Spade 13:10, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Meeting into a cafe in soutern France, I don't think it's possible, I'm currently living in Rouen ;-) But nice choice for the car. You're in France for the work or for pleisure (vacations?)? Right now, the weather is not excellent but I hope you'll enjoy your trip. Kuxu 23:28, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the weather was very bad for driving and etc... I went to see some of my wifes family in martigues for thanksgiving. It was very nice, and I am, pleased to say my first visit to france contridicted anti-French stereotypes I have heard as an american, esp. that French people are rude or dirty. Everyone was clean, friendly, and ate nice food :) Actually I found people to be impressively nice, and enjoyed myself very much. The rare beef and tasty blonde beers were an unexpectedly nice treat, and of course I loved the wines and cheeses! Despite living in Germany, I find I prefer French beer? Very suprising! Cheers, Sam Spade 22:55, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

table quest[edit]

Dear Sam, do You have any suggestions how to create a simple two-column table? Cheers, Str1977 00:30, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm probably the wrong one to ask, but what do you mean exactly? Can you find an example? Sam Spade 16:04, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Arbitration for User:TDC[edit]

Hi, you don’t know me but we have had contact with a mutual person, User:TDC.

I got your username from the Requests for comment/TDC-2[2] or the Requests for comment/TDC[3]

Currently there is arbitration pending on User:TDC. [4]

I welcome and encourage your comments on the arbitration page.Travb 01:56, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

please look[edit]

Noahide Laws in Category:Jewish Christian topics ?[edit]

There is a dispute over whether Noahide Laws should be included in this category, anyone with an opinion is asked to express it here: Talk:Noahide_Laws#Jewish_Christian_topics

Once more unto the breech[edit]

I had hoped we could settle this with the naming convention but, alas, it seems that was not to be. You've edited the article in the past and perhaps you could spare a moment to comment at Talk:Níðhöggr. It would be much appreciated. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 15:51, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Classic Rock[edit]

Hello. I was wondering if you would like to participate in my classic rock survey. I'm trying to find the most like classic rock song. There is more information on my user page. Hope you participate! RENTASTRAWBERRY FOR LET? röck 02:43, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Anything by Manowar, but I guess
  1. battle hymn
  2. holy war
  3. brothers of metal united
  4. hail and kill
  5. warriors of metal

are esp. good. How did you come to choose me, btw? Sam Spade 21:48, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Image tagging[edit]

Hi Sam, I was just wondering what copyright tag (if any) is best suited for images scanned from video game manuals? Or even taken from manuals found on the video games cd in pdf files?

Example Image:Alterac-warcraft2-with-orc-symbol.jpg

Thanks Sam. - User:UnlimitedAccess

I really have no clue about copyrights, I guess you could ask around at Wikipedia:Copyright or pages it links to... I'd prob better not say much on the subject, since I'm a pirate... Arrr! Sam Spade 21:33, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Can you help me?[edit]

I am having a dispute with a number of people over the Category of "Ethnic Groups of Canada" and the subject of "Black Canadian" and "Black Canadians"

I have done much of the work on the ethnic groups of canada, more so than any of them.

They keep quoting wikipedia policy. But there is an inconsistancy ... some ARTICLES are categorized in "ethnic groups of canada", while others, the "CATEGORY" , example - black canadians, is categorized in ethnic groups of canada. They keep saying both is not allowed, but everytime I try to make the articles consistant, by having the articles themselves in the category, the keep accusing me of vandalism.

Can you help me, or at least clearify exactly what the policy is and why they keep doing this?

Thanks :-)

Cooltobekind 17:02, 30 November 2005 (UTC)Cooltobekind

You sound like your having a real problem, and have been treated unfairly. Unfortunately there isn't alot I can do at the moment, I am before the ArbCom (see Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Nobs01_and_others), and that has me pretty busy (along w school and family of course!). I promise to do what I can once things have settled down, but until then I suggest you try WP:AMA. Sam Spade 21:55, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Welcome Message?[edit]

How do I make my own welcome message for new users? I was trying to help a noob out today and, after a couple of failed attempts, used yours (with an express note that I was blatantly ripping yours off). I figured, however, that the interests of improving the experience for a new user trumped all else. Cheers. Youngamerican 21:27, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Absolutely. Feel free to simply copy what I (or someone else) has, and make your own template. For example, mine is : User:Sam Spade/Welcome. Just make your own page like that (you can copy my links if you want, or change them, or whatever) and put tjose weird {{}} brackets on the outside instead of [[]]'s. Sam Spade 21:30, 30 November 2005 (UTC)


I don't remember who's user page I was on, but I was leaving a message on theirs and you happened to be the last person to put a comment on their user page. Sort of random. I also look at pages having to do with classic rock and I press to see what users have a link to that page on their user page. Thats what I do most. RENTASTRAWBERRY FOR LET? röck 23:30, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh and can you pick your two favorite manowar songs. There is a rule that you can't submit to many from all one artist, I think it makes it more fair. RENTASTRAWBERRY FOR LET? röck 23:35, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Good luck!![edit]

I saw your candidating again for the ArbCom. Good luck!! You count with my vote --Neigel von Teighen 17:20, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate it. Unfortunately I'm pretty busy w an arbcom case of my own, and its going VERY badly. Please have a look: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Nobs01_and_others/Proposed_decision.
Sam Spade 20:36, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Additions to Ayyavazhi[edit]

Hai Sam, I've added some thing to Ayyavazhi.Please take a look to Ayyavazhi#Inclusivistic_and_Exclusivistic_Ideas - Vaikunda (<.^.>) Raja

Sam, it's been a while since we last talked. How are you? Raja made some new interesting points about ayyavazhi. I made some more changes. Raj2004 01:10, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I read them also. I am very inclusionist, but I like to see that they are at least partially so. I dislike when religions are entirely exclusionist of other faiths. Sam Spade 01:00, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Removal of advantages/disadvantages[edit]

Hey, I see you've been removing some posited advantages and disadvantages from Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2005/Straw poll because you say they are inaccurate; would you mind explaining on the talk page why you feel they are inaccurate? Cheers, Talrias (t | e | c) 19:29, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Not at all, I'd be glad to. Sam Spade 19:31, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks! Talrias (t | e | c) 19:44, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Just wondering what kind of timeframe you have for explaining? :) Talrias (t | e | c) 20:50, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

What where? Sorry, I have an ArbCom case, and finals, and plenty going on otherwise ;) Can you be specific? Have I been unclear about what I think would be meritiocratic, and what would not? Ask away! :) Sam Spade 04:00, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Pimp ≠ Sugar Daddy[edit]

I removed the refererence to "sugar daddy" being another name for "pimp" in the article Age disparity in sexual relationships, because it is not. I checked close to a dozen references for this word, and not one even came close. Why did you choose to revert my revert? Denni 19:08, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Because I have heard it used that way. lets have a look: Pimp+Sugar Daddy
Sam Spade 20:30, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Arbcom recusal policy[edit]

FYI - I started a discussion on improving the Arbcom recusal policy. Some of the feedback so far has been good, but my resident wikistalker is currently there doing whatever he can to nitpick and disrupt. Any suggestions you have would be appreciated. [5]. Rangerdude 21:03, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Arbcom Debate[edit]

Thanks for letting me know about that, I'm fairly worried about how this is all going considering we've known about this was coming for a year now, among other areas where the arbcom system is on the verge of collapse IMO. karmafist 03:40, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Copied from message I left at Fuelwagon's talk page[edit]

===FYI: no cabel, no bias, no need to read evidence=== [6]

Fred Bauder says:

"This matter is different from our usual case, as we have all encountered FuelWagon doing his thing.

It is only that general familiarity which could support proactive or summary action.

Often the first we hear about someone is when it shows up on Requests for arbitration and we are truly clueless about what is going on. We don't want the endless pile of evidence we are usually presented with (No one could actually read it all). What we need is a few examples which nicely illustrate the problem. This is not too much to ask for. You are writers. You are editors." at [7]

"Please place some, but not a whole lot, of evidence on the evidence page: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/FuelWagon v. Ed Poor/Evidence. I don't think all the allegations will have to be responded to. " at [8]

You just HAD to stand up for yourself. See what happens when you buck authority?

WAS 4.250 20:18, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Its really not the time to be going in front of the ArbCom either, have you seen my case? I wish I could wait until after the elections!!! Sam Spade 21:39, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I have no idea what you are talking about. Give a link! WAS 4.250 21:47, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Sam Spade 21:49, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Oh, THAT ! It never occured to me to think of it as "Sam Spade's case". In reading it over you seem to be a bit player in the whole tempest in a teapot. They sure went out of their way to find fault with you. But then, that's par for the course around here. WAS 4.250 21:55, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Thats exactly how I feel. I got an article featured recently (Human), and almost immediately people started criticizing it. I don't know what you know about behavior modification, but the wikipedia does a very poor job of providing positive reinforcement. Sam Spade 22:06, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

LOL ! I keep telling people the pay here sucks. WAS 4.250 22:18, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Deeceevoice[edit]

I'd like to draw your attention to the above RfC, wherein I've quoted some of your conversation with Deeceevoice. — Matt Crypto 08:19, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Cberlet case[edit]

Sam, the case is lost. As far as I have seen, they considered some hard answers from you and your party to Cberlet as uncivil and ad hominem attacks... When blindness is so strong, there's nothing more to do.

Any help I can give you, please tell me. --Neigel von Teighen 15:47, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Good advice, thanks. See this ;)
Sam Spade 21:51, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Sam!!![edit]

hi whoever u r. Green Day rules!

Two Barnsters[edit]

Hope all is well, Sam I have been awarded two Barnsters, not just one by admirers!

Raj2004 01:18, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Sam I appreciate the compliments.

Raj2004 03:07, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Sam Spade is awarded the Barnstar for his great support for Hinduism, Advaita, for promoting awareness of Hinduism, discouraging misconceptions about the Hindu religion and his great encouragement to new users such as Vaikunda Raja. Raj2004 10:11, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

The Original Barnstar

No problem, Sam you deserve it! Raj2004 14:34, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Bill of rights[edit]

Hi - I just saw this posted on my talk page. Seems worthwhile [9]. Rangerdude 05:50, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

An old issue[edit]

Since we've had a nice interaction on Left-right politics, I hope it might be a good time to clear the air about an old issue that still bothers me, namely your edits to Prussian Holocaust (history), and what I took to be your support for Chammy Koala, Helpful Dave (=Chamaeleon) & User:Schlesier in this and other issues that I argued in effect constituted pushing neo-fascist talking points and an abuse of Wikipedia.

I've looked over Talk:Prussian Holocaust, and (i) I've more sympathy with the line you actually took than what I has remembered was the line you took, (ii) I didn't respect WP:AGF for which I apologise. But there are three points I want to make:

  • Though I am at ease with what the article now contains (the reason for that is mostly due to finding the letter about the Louvain destruction), and though I generally agree with the principle that "the cure for bad speech is not less speech but more speech", this is one of those cases where not adding respectability to a very ugly rhetorical strategy;
  • Based on his edits here and at de.wikipedia, User:Schlesier appears to be an active neo-fascist or fellow traveller;
  • Chammy Koala really was guilty of what I said about her;

...on which I have the nagging suspicion I don't think you agree with. I'd appreciate your views on this, if only to help me put this behind me. --- Charles Stewart 20:28, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

First, I appreciate people like you who clear the air rather then allow bad blood to become worse.
OK, some info. User:Schlesier is not to my knowledge a neo-nazi, but I am pretty sure he is an extreme german nationalist. Chammy Koala is (or was) Chamaeleon's gf. I am not german, and am not partisan regarding germany and poland. I do feel that german war crimes are greatly exagerated and over focused on, while Russian (and other, including american) war crimes are largely ignored (due to victors justice / cold war politics). I am curious what you mean about Chammy Koala being guilty of, as I might be able to clear that up also.
Sam Spade 22:50, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply. Bad blood is too much: the whole question shook me badly; I was ascribing all kinds of motives I had little evidence for to several participants in the whole episode, and was on the verge of leaving WP, but I did put the whole sorry saga behind me. Still, I'm glad to have this exchange.
There aren't many extreme German nationalists who aren't neo-fascists or fellow travellers, but that's by-the-by. I accused Chammy Koala of being a useful idiot of neo-fascists, and pace WP:CIVIL I'd say the same again of her. She simply failed to engage what I said in the VfD discussion. While I think the way that (West-) germans came to term with their Nazi past is generally admirable and holds lessons for other countries dealing with shameful parts of their nation's history, it's also fair to say that germans are generally guilty of what Orwell called "reverse nationalism". --- Charles Stewart 03:23, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Is reverse nationalism something like "white guilt"? If so, I can tell you from living here (I'm currently living in Germany) that germans arn't feeling very guilty. Their mainly feeling angry about economics and immigration generally, and the EU specifically. My one german friend (all my german friends are west german btw, since I live on the border of benelux) says germany should never have reunited, and he wishes they could get rid of east germany. You can imagine what he thinks of the general generosity of his nation and its socialist tendancies towards immigrants and poorer nations. Except for those who are very far left, all the germans I have met feel that taxes are too high, benefits too low, and that they are tired of paying the bills for "auslanders".

Useful idiot is clearly an inherently POV term, and prob. unhelpful. I will say that those on the left who would have been sympathetic w the soviet union 20 yrs ago are now often sympathetic w muslims in a way which makes many people uncomfortable. This sort of "support the underdog no matter who he is" attitude might have been a factor on chammy's part, if you choose to look at it that way.

On the other hand, my opinion is that Chammy was simply being intellectually honest. Germany is for many people a caricature of guilty post-imperialism, w hitler and nazi's as some sort of archetype of evil. Such views are promoted in the public school system by mouldering academics, but have little meaning to persons such as myself (and I assume chammy) who have a broad view of history. In short, people are horrid to one another w great regularity, with Nazi germany being just one of a long list of examples. Yes, the shear numbers of dead were high, but that must be placed into perspective. The industrial revolution had recently occurred, and the ability for people to relocate (voluntarily or not) had just taken a profound leap. The dynamics of european history had already set the Jews (and others, but especially the Jews) up for what happened. Nearly universally reviled, locked into unpopular "parasitic" occupations by racial laws, and concentrated in ghettos, the inevitable occurred. If you think about it in terms of statistics, the nazi's killed very few people in an astoundingly humane manner when compared to other incidents of ethnic cleansing, even those which occured in WWII. The japanese in the rape of nanking, numerous incidents in eastern europe perpetrated by the Ustaše, and of course the invading russians help provide perspective. The nazi's didn't nail women to barns by their ears, engage in head chopping contests, or encourage their guards to slit 1,360 throats apiece. They did do a great deal of awful things, but honestly... I was watching a revolutionary war video with my children recently, and we learned how american patriots on at least one occasion skinned indians in order to make boots. People are often horrid to each other, nazi's were not exceptional in that regard.

Hopefully I have helped you understand my POV rather than offending or otherwise confusing you further. Always glad to participate in amiable and rigorous dialogue, Sam Spade 15:30, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

If I can add my two cents, the Germans were not alone in commiting racial crimes in the period of 1942 to 1944, when the largest number of murders occurred; virtually every nationality of Europe participated, in one way or another. So of course, later all claimed to be resistance fighters, and blame everything on the Germans. As Franz Neumann, Chief of Research of the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal said, "the Germans were the least anti-Semitic people of all". [10]. nobs 17:29, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

If I really want to get to the bottom of Chammy's behaviour, of course I must talk to her. I think I don't want to enough. I know Germany: although I'm in the States now, my permanent home has in Berlin since the beginning of 2001, I'm on leave from my job in Dresden, and my wife and daughter are German. I don't agree with your perspective: familiarity with Germany's occupation in Poland gives you many atrocties that in my opinion are worse than anything I know of that the Japanese carried out, and concentration camp guards derived amusement from creating objets d'art out of material gathered from corpses. I do agree that it is misleading to regard the Nazi experience as something disjoint from the rest of human history, and I think much of what distinguished the evils the nazis perpetrated is how they made use of technology to make it efficient (it is not easy to be barbaric and efficient), how they hid the most horrible parts from party outsiders, and how they tried to put into practice their picture of an ideal man who was at once civilised and comfortable committing atrocity.

What I meant by 'reverse nationalism' is how most Germans are uncomfortable with any expression of pride in their country. German's are mostly not ridden with feelings of guilt, and there is a national culture (if one that has an east-west split down its middle), but where people from most other countries are likely to have a patriotic impulse, German's are likely to have either a fierce attachment to their locality (city or state), or a belief in some nationality-transcending community, along the lines of Goethe's Weltbürger. Such various things as the national state of gloom about the country's prospects, and German's hunger for travel, I think are symptoms of this. What you said about your German friends' opinion is interesting: complaints about high taxes is widespread amongst Germans I know. Complaining about 'Auslanders' is something that is unacceptable in most social contexts that I am familar with in Berlin, but these complaints are more common in East Germany (with far fewer immigrants).

You are certainly right about the POVness of useful idiot, and I risk all sorts of sanctions by losing my temper in this way. But insults do serve a valuable purpose, and I find WP:CIVIL rather unworldly. --- Charles Stewart 22:19, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree w all of what you say above. I am certainly not aware of all atrocities, and the aggression against the slavs was particularly unreasonable (esp. given that it lost Germany the war). Indeed the cruelty towards the slavs brings into question nazi german racism, as opposed to simple xenophobia and aggression. Slavs on average look more blonde and blue than most germans... and of course their closer to India, and are therefore arguably more Aryan. The Japanese and italians on the other hand... (Axis allies)... are arguably not indo-euro at all.
Regarding the Prussian holocaust, I in no way dispute that it was provoked. I am certain we could build an entire wiki for human rights abuses and other horrors. I recently heard a speech about female genital mutilation that made me want to react in a manner which could properly be described as "cultural imperialism". Heck, I think abortion is infanticide, and male circumcision (or other acts of mutilation and abuse) are human rights abuses. I guess its easy to become desensitised with things like this going on in my society. Frankly, I'd rather be a Jew in Nazi Germany than a middle aged female herbal medicine practicioner in midevil germany ;) Things are rough all over, the point is not any one horror, but the stoping of those ocuring now.
There is an infamous paradigm, which I was briefed on when coming to the country, and which I have heard of a few other times since coming here. It all relates to a man I took a german class with. He was an older man, and he said he would like the opportunity to talk to a german, and ask if they were sorry enough for WWII. Of course our entire class (and teacher, who was originally from germany) gently scolded him, and explained that nearly no war criminals were left alive today, and that most germans were not even alive during the nazi era, or were in no way responsible had they been. The crazy thing is americans actually ask germans this on ocasion. I on the other hand, treat them like ordinary human beings, without a trace of stigma.
Regarding the "auslanders" part, that was a slight mistatement on my part. I've never heard a german complain about "auslanders", and indeed they seem quite happy w me (I'm american). They complain about the east, east germany, specific countries in the east (Turkey, Russia and Poland), and the immigrants who come and recieve benefits or commit petty crimes; the story often involves the govt. benefits providing a better lifestyle to the easterner than that which they themselves recieve. Sam Spade 23:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Though I think Germans has some way to go to be in a wholly healthy relationship with their country and its past, as I said before I'm very impressed with how (West) Germans have come to terms with their past, and I have little time for German-bashers who are ignorant of this.
I'm very pleased to have had this conversation with you. See you around WP! --- Charles Stewart 15:14, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Kenney at Centre Party Germany discussions[edit]

Hi Sam, plus ca change, "bullshit" John Kenney is back in my face. Is is right or justifiable that ggod faith questions related to an article are Archived within 48 hours? Its a piece of his medecine, and I seriously don;t take to having real questions called garbage . Sorry, and I'll understand if you can't bear to look . As you know I didnt post no arbcom , after what you said, not that it made much difference. Who are these minds ? EffK 01:30, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Archiving after less than a week is very extreme and not according to standards. John Kenny is not a friendly person w tho he disrespects. I suggest caution. Sam Spade 02:07, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I accept yr caution. I proved the guy off base on a coupla things so he's not cautious source wise. He's following McClenon on this. McClenon wants to caution me off WP. I know why so see it quite rationally. All I can do is leave fertile healthy water within the talk archives, for when the wind finally changes. McClenon's and Kenney's aren't very important in the scheme of things, and really half the time I'm appreciative of little guys and big ole Str giving me ample excuse to reason. Unless there's a EffK deletion policy- the editors will eventually see. If I'm sent on holiday, I could get a healthy tan , while the pages here rot all over again. Thanks anyway Sam, take care in these wikid snake pits.EffK 03:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

==EffK has had enough==[edit]

==EffK and Deputy Arrests==[edit]

Sam, I'm sorry to have to go against your earlier advice of not making life hard ar Arbcom-or avice that it wasnt a good moment. I did not persist with my request for Arb., after you so advised but McClenon did, but against me. I also did not lose my cool with Kenney, as you calmed me. I showed the POV there at Centre exactly as it is in one of two relevant sections. However the combination since that Kenney makes with McClenon is more than a contributor should have to bear, so I have repeated more formally, as formally as I am capable of, my call to Arbitrate Str1977 and what I qualify as "Revisionist Clerical Denialism in Wikipedia". As always you are the only Editor who has shown any continued good faith impartiality towards me, and I request you to be aware, if not assist, this current request. I repeat it at Arbcom discussion and on my Evidence Discussion. I feel let down by this community big-time , and I wish to give it the chance to hold to its noble values now through expansion of the Arb on me , or a subsequent over-lapping repeat Arbitration. If no one else will do it for me, I ask you to do so. I do not understand the instructions as to how it is listed. It is RCDinW as above stroke Str1977/Robert McClenon. You may imagine all the expletives you have never yet heard , the which I do not express in WP writing.

It was bound to be like this- and I only suggest you follow the import of the Fire Decree (Courts Decrees) and Enabling Act recent sourceing and pay particular attention to:* The continued contradiction between Papen's answer in the negative re:Deputy arrest, at Nuremberg (and WP suggestion of legality through suspension habeas corpus) : * The un-constitutionality of all Hindenberg Decrees under Article 48 per Rosenberg; *That there is one issue, the Fire, and that alone as an illegal Common-Plan or Conspiracy justifying the previous 6 March 1931 un-constitutiional Decree ; *Article/section 2 of the Enabling Act as sole constitutional reflection on WP relevant to sovereignty of reichstag deputies(as part of the Institution).

You will understand , and you will know that which is still required, and which I have been rquesting for some months : constitutional justification even under Armed Revolt Art.48 for Deputy arrests.

In so far as it would serve my purpose well I would accept a mentor, but , only if the opposite editors accept mentors. If, thereby, rules as to source are upheld, and harassment and provocation stop I would be happy . I ask you to answer this at Evidence for EffK/Discussion, if you need to at all. I place this comm. to you there as relevant [[11]].

Bye bye EffK 14:39, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/EffK/Workshop. Sam Spade 17:37, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry Sam, but I had to clarify that any mess left was not a factual mess. I call repeatedly for expansion of this arbcom, McClenon said I could,and when it comes to such things I'm happy to believe him. Thanks for the cv.

EffK 02:30, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Re:User Bill of Rights[edit]

People need lives; this is so not needed. εγκυκλοπαίδεια*(talk) 16:53, 10 December 2005 (UTC) 19:13, 10 December 2005 (UTC) I find that a vacuous statement. I have a busy life, but decided to take the time to edit this page on my friends laptop in a small village near Aachen, where I was visiting him yesterday. I thought it was that important. Now I am back home and noticing your comment with a curious mix of absurd humor and annoyance w your hubris. Some people do have lives, so kindly step out of our way while we get things done ;) Sam Spade 15:50, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry if you feel that way, I think I know you from somewhere. I never got in the way, but I do feel that all these organizations Wikipedia has are justs templates to create cliques and detract from the work, such as the CCW or all the rest. So, I am sorry if you think I am proud. Thanks for the comments, εγκυκλοπαίδεια*(talk) 16:53, 10 December 2005 (UTC) 17:28, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I love you, dude! ; ) εγκυκλοπαίδεια* (talk) 16:53, 10 December 2005 (UTC) 17:32, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

You make some good points, and I'm sorry I was grumpy. I just didn't like the "people need lives" bit. I think I know you from somewhere as well? I looked at your user page and you looked familiar. Do you know me from online or from RL or what? Curiously yours, Sam Spade 17:40, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

You make some good points, and I'm sorry I was grumpy. I just didn't like the "people need lives" bit. I think I know you from somewhere as well? I looked at your user page and you looked familiar. Do you know me from online or from RL or what? Curiously yours, Sam Spade 17:40, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Well I shouldn't have said "people need lives." That was rude. And I was joking on the last part too! Come to think of it, didn't you have a crazy wave signature? And I used to be V. Molotov. εγκυκλοπαίδεια* (talk) 16:53, 10 December 2005 (UTC) 17:43, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Fantastic, what did you do with that signature that I used to like?? It was crazy. εγκυκλοπαίδεια* (talk) 16:53, 10 December 2005 (UTC) 17:47, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

People acted like freaks and got on my nerves ;) Well, mainly one guy, but were getting along ok now, and its best not to name names. Some people just love to give me a hard time, or did you already know that? ;) Sam Spade 17:49, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: Paleoliberalism[edit]

Seems rather redundant. I would recommend it be merged with Classical Liberalism, just from a brief glance over it. Kade 01:29, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Test results[edit]

I and at least one other editor have taken the test linked to on your user page. My results are @ User:Sam_Spade/Theoretical_Biases#Weltanschauung, and User:Silverback's results are on his user page. Let me know if you find this interesting :) Cheers, Sam Spade 15:43, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Just got mine: User:RyanFreisling/Political_Quiz2 -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:42, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Thats fun. I'm right by Pope_John_Paul_the_Great. In reality I'm a radical centrist, regardless of what these tests say ;) Sam Spade 15:26, 12 December 2005 (UTC)


hy im in grade seven and im doing a project on volcanoes so if this can be answered soon that would be awesome -much appreciated thxs

where are earthquakes likely to be found?-- 02:43, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

thankyou so very much HELOO!

where are earthquakes likely to be found?-- 02:45, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

hy im really in need of kinda new and im not really sure if im supposed to ask a question so .(ha!) yah if you could help me find some answers to this question thatwould be awesome ...:

where are earthquakes likely to be found?-- 02:54, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Try Geologic faults, and please, limit your query to one sub-section, thanks. Kade 03:15, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Your care. Arbs strange ways[edit]

Thanks Sam for that. I am bemused by McC's ability to write all those accusations in there as if they had emanated from Arbcom..... EffK 10:16, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

You can also contribute evidence and proposals to the workshop. Sam Spade 15:23, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
But the guy writes things as as if the Arbcom has told him, as if it is they themselves making the statement.I don't get it...these are not proposals or if they are they purport to be proposals from Arbcom after consideration by Arbcom. [[12]]. You are telling me he is fitting a template , no more? If I were an arbitrator I would have mixed feelings: relish the assistance, but not relish the words-in-their--mouth aspect. I guess I'll have to join in there, at least answer this . I kinda think it's one big drag for the Arbs, and counter-productive to bore them more than the diffs do already. I'll have to be brief as possible whilst remaining qualitative. I'm kinda doing a life out-side WP, have I got months ? See you, EffK 23:23, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree. We should talk to them. Sam Spade 00:09, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

He edits on Wikinfo so I am recused Fred Bauder 00:11, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

and that means you won't comment or provide advice? Can you at least tell me a functional place to dialogue w the arbcom? random talk pages havn't worked, nor has the mailing list... Is there an IRC room? Sam Spade 00:14, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Email one of the other arbitrators and it will be forwarded to the Arbcom-l list. There is an IRC channel and we can invite folk on for conferences. Fred Bauder 23:03, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I just posted to Goodoldpolonius2 talk. I think they, Str1977 and McClenon are gowing very cocky in here, and behaving as if they have already defeated me. We will all be left with a subverted WP, as I always warned. The only thing that will halt them is real serious analysis of rule breaking . I have watched McC , I had to, and he came in precisely to take over the inner processes of Comment and Arbitration, just as Str came in-well go to his earliest history. They'll pick us off one by one -its open policy in the real world, reported. WP is under attack. They realised once reality entered their clerical articles. I tell you there is a team. Str at the start had variable quality English, and McC arrived after I suggested to Str he get in his superior to answer the questions. McC aint up on things, but came out with wierd counter question as to sins. Jimbo's mistake was to allow private emails-and that cat is out of the bag now . The only way to back-track would be to open the email history , which aint gonna happen .
Fred aint anon, so we cannot ask him to endanger himself. He could start an anon account , and help the WP by concentrating on this wikicop McC.EffK 09:01, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
PS my IP is variable and is a whole block. I tell you guys that this is no longer me, and never was me as a User. This is just as I said to Jimbo, the result of the S pring 2005 vat N ew Media C onference . It is no longer a question of the factual here or there, and I have persisted all this time so that the real problem would become visible . Its tough on Jimbo tho- this is the one catch. Are you really anon ?

EffK 09:24, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

re above[[13]]. They think I am the opposite to all their positive because I reveal the link to canon 752 . You add that to Cindy Wooden and you have a direct order to do what is happening. A page will have to go up reporting this as it is history. It is the Pontifical Council for Social Communications and Msgr Renato Boccardo is one the vatican's rising stars .An Italian he is ex council of Laity's World Youth Day organiser , he is billed as one of the 'best and brightest, , was 51 on 21 Dec 2001 , took charge of Papal travel 2001 is now the sec to the above PCSC, and a Bishop. Arch Bish John Foley oversees. I repeat to these guys -that I am trying to help you repair your scandal, your magisterium. Sorry Sam, to use yr page . EffK 10:22, 13 December 2005 (UTC)


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Jefferson as a Mason[edit]

I just reverted again, but I left three links on the talk page so you can verify for yourself.--SarekOfVulcan 17:44, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, I admit I hadn't done that, my revert was made on the basis of your edit summary and the removal of cited content. Clearly 50 yr old documents are ok to cite in regards to jefferson's possible masonry ;) Sam Spade 18:13, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, it's hard to cite removal from a list in any great detail, except for the way I finally did it. I hate the thought of adding a "No, they're not Masons" section to the list, but that may be the only way to be encyclopedic about it.--SarekOfVulcan 18:28, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia and lack of credibility[edit]

Sam, I am concerned about Wikipedia's lack of credibility. There may be authors, as we know, who merely vandalize; see this article:

I am concerned about some anon IP users such as this one:

He puts blatantly anti-Hindu paragraphs with supposed scholarly support. see his revision of Ganesh article, for example. He also does this with the Shiva article. I have no way of verifying whether it is legitimate scholarly opinion or vandalism. If you have time, please view his contributions and please have your say.

Am I paranoid? or it is correct that I have some concern.

I have generally cited sources and even websites where the books can be purchased so people can question my views for the opinions. (see avatar article for example) I am concerned about what others do.

Raj2004 02:38, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

You are right to desire verification, it is our duty to improve the quality of information when here, as elsewhere in our lives. See Talk:Shiva#Controversy. Sam Spade 03:25, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

After more review of this editors citations I share your concerns. I can't find the books or authors he cites. Sam Spade 03:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Sam again as always for your input. I appreciate it!

Regards, Raj2004 11:06, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd like your input on something[edit]

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this: User:Mihnea Tudoreanu#Average End Quality Hypothesis Also, we should talk sometime soon about our unfinished collaboration on the Nazism in relation to other concepts article. Regards, Mihnea Tudoreanu 06:38, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

One problem is that quality declines steadily on protected articles. Some ideas have been proposed similar to yours, where updates need to be cleared by some "editor-in-chief", but that hasn't been popular. As far as discussion regarding socialism and nazism, I've been doing quite a bit of that. Have a look @ User_talk:Kade#Fascism_2. Sam Spade 15:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm, how can the quality of a protected article decline? If it is protected, it will stay the same, and thus its quality will also stay the same. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 19:50, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

The world turns, new info becomes available, and a frozen article thus declines, much like the 1911 britannica. Sam Spade 20:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

True enough, but this process is very slow. Unless we're talking about an ongoing event - in which case it wouldn't make sense to protect the article anyway - you cannot expect it to become obsolete any time soon. Most of the 1911 britannica was perfectly good in 1915, and some of it is still not obsolete even today, almost 100 years later. There is only so much you can say about certain topics; I don't see any new info becoming available on the Pythagorean theorem in the near future, for instance. Perhaps the protection policy for exceptionally good articles should come with a time limit (say, for example, between 1 and 5 years, depending on the topic). -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 21:54, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I think article quality generally improves when articles are unprotected. I think there are exceptions to this which can be addressed by reverting to a stable version. What do you know about Wikipedia:Pushing_to_1.0? Sam Spade 22:04, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

"Arabic" numerals[edit]

Hi. You might want to contribute to the discussion at Talk:Arabic numerals regarding whether the article should be renamed "Hindu-Arabic numerals". Thanks. deeptrivia (talk) 22:12, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Sam, these are my thoughts.

I believe the article should be named Hindu-Arabic numerals. It was well known that the Arabs learned the numeral system from Hindus. I think Will Durant, an eminient historian with his eight volume book, the Story of Civilization refers to the numerals as such. I don't remember the exact page though. If you have the book, please look it up. I don't have the book.

Raj2004 00:41, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Sam, there is a good web site stating the glories of Hindu culture. In one section, it has numerous citations supporting the importance of Hindu culture and mathematics. Please feel free to take a look:

Raj2004 00:45, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Sam, you know me well. I don't state things unless I can support it well. I hope that I have convinced you. I agree a google search is a good start but it may be one of many criteria. Scholarly support like Will Durant may also be strong sources well. What do you think?

Raj2004 02:47, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi User:Sam Spade. Thanks for your input on Arabic numerals! We all agree that "Arabic numerals" is informally and colloquially the most commonly used term for the numerals on the internet. However, the discussion is, that in the more formal context of the title of an encyclopedia article, which should be more rigorous in reflecting academic norms, should we not be using the term that historians of mathematics, and other academics strongly prefer. Just one example, Encyclopedia Britannica has no article on "Arabic numerals", the article about these numerals is titled "Hindu-Arabic numerals" [14] deeptrivia (talk) 01:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I think you both make a good case. I never ment the google search to be anything other than informative. If people are now saying Hindu-Arabic numerals instead of Arabic numerals, it makes sense to move the page. Is there enough aspects which are inately arabic as to warrant a separate article? Sam Spade 04:32, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Sam, I understand. I am sure there are inately Arabic aspects of the numeral system but I do not have any sources to cite.

Thanks again!

Raj2004 11:07, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

EffK is forced to Abandon a Corrupted Wikipedia[edit]

I refer you to my response of a few moments ago at 15 December [[15]],

Take care bogie.EffK 01:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

deeceevoice arbitration[edit]

As a party to her RfC, you might be interested to know a request for arbitration has been filed towards deeceevoice Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Deeceevoice.

-Justforasecond 18:24, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Page Protection policy[edit]

FYI - SlimVirgin is violating page protection again, and the usual suspects from the admin pool are all lining up in droves to ignore evidence of her clear wrongdoing in favor of attacking the messenger. Wikipedia:Requests for comment/SlimVirgin2

These people are truly drunk with power, and I fear we are witnessing the beginnings of the end for Wikipedia. The encyclopedia is quickly becoming the exclusive domain of the administrators where any and every outside edit is subject to their POV approval. The whole "indefinate and arbitrary probation for doing anything" charade of Fred Bauder is indicative of the exact same problem - not only does he penalize people for criticizing his friend Cberlet, but now he's trying to make it a crime to dissent from his penalty decrees! Rangerdude 00:04, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

But whats to be done? The best answer I've come up w is simply to abandon the whole mess. It looks like their going to choose that for me anyhow. How shameful... Sam Spade 00:38, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

The only solution I can think of is to push new arbcom policies through to reign them in. Naturally, those who stand to lose will oppose but the key to overcoming that is publicizing it. I've tried to clean up Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Code of Conduct and add clauses addressing most of the major problems. Although I don't think it is nearly strict enough it is a start. Rangerdude 05:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Priveleged experts[edit]

The priveleged expert exemption has been made a new policy [16] prior to the ArbCom vote to finalize the precedent [17]. nobs 20:25, 20 December 2005 (UTC)


I'm wishing you a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Str1977 11:50, 26 December 2005 (UTC)