You wrote, addressing me: "The five major territories all should be treated the same as DC. " Why were you addressing me? That wasn't either an answer to one of my questions, which were asking about other editors' positions, or to any statement of my position itself. (My preference is to treat the five major territories in the same way as the DC. I have said that, except that it would be wronger than wrong to do that inconsistently.) I did ask whether someone wanted different territories treated differently. I certainly did not. Why were you addressing me? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:58, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
I would not want territories treated differently from DC or from one another, and I thought it instructive to all that the State Department report to the U.N. addressed DC and the five major territories as all equally "within the political framework of the United States". Golbez and Collect had addressed a second question you posed, so I did not want my reply to be confounded with theirs.
I agree there should be consistency, so for instance, someone has redirected "U.S. states and territories" into U.S. state which does not address U.S. territories. But the fact that there is wp:stuff out there should not limit our progress on the U.S. page with sourced scholarly secondary information which is -- so far -- countered only with editor wp:or from primary source data bases and almanacs.
You asked how to break the logjam. Is there a logjam? What is the logjam? Maybe I haven't been paying attention, but I don't see what the logjam is. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:28, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
Well, a logjam is a mass of logs blocking a river's flow threatening its navigation downriver. Often at Wikipedia postings are so rapid and continuous I am left behind as I generally post only once or twice a day. At the mediation, mediator Sunray made a posting not long ago which had one response for a week, her latest had one response over three days among six? editors in mediation. --- so, with infrequent and partial postings from the group, it seems as though there is a logjam holding back the stream of posts at the mediation. --- In a way, you just proved me wrong, thanks for contributing. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 13:25, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for your thoughtful question. I feel bad because I've lost track of what the conflicting proposals for text to be replaced are in the territories dispute. I know there are huge legal implications for the people living there, and some of them are based on vague and ambiguous laws where the text that ends up appearing in places like Wikipedia might affect their lives, access to welfare and healthcare resources, etc., so I do know it's important, but it seems to me like it has been splitting hairs in meronomy. I agree TFD often doesn't bother with sources when imposing a subjective "common sense" and I could scarcely believe his apparently sincere suggestion that representing popular opinion was more important than representing reliable sources. Can you please show me a diff where you think he's removed a legitimate improvement to the article? EllenCT (talk) 16:23, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
All I ask for is a fair hearing for various editors who repeatedly come to the U.S. page and try to copy edit the lead sentence as Seqqis recently did, noting that the territories are left out. By a 3 to 1 majority the Dispute Resolution of 2013 proposed and the Request for Mediation of 2015 is working on language including modern islanders within the U.S. national jurisdiction, political framework, geographical area, -- despite the anachronistic constitutional arguments describing the United States of 1901 of judicial fiat which no longer pertain to modern day American islanders. Most recently, it was Golbez who reverted Seqqis edit Diff. , Seqqis: “The territories were left out”, Golbez Diff. , Golbez: "rv two edits: one, there's a discussion going on right now whether or not to include the territories, ...” -- I might have asked for a source rather than refer to a procedure which is confidential, but Golbez is a fine administrator who has brought the article to GA status. My primary concern is to improve articles with sourced contributions.
The thread at U.S. talk was opened to explore any objections to the source which is being used in the request for mediation now addressing the geographical scope of the lead sentence -- apart from disputes about the constitutional status of the U.S. territories. Given six experts supporting a reliable U.S.G. source which I shared on the U.S. Talk page, TFD said experts do not include islanders constitutionally. But that is non sequitur anachronism (not racism as he defensively protests he is not a racist and I do not mean to imply he is one). The constitutional holding has been gutted by subsequent Congressional acts post-WWII.
TFD reminds me of my high school friend, a member of Mensa with a photographic memory who had a hobby of taunting me with non sequiturs. TFDs hobby seems to be chiming in wherever I go to muddy the waters regarding including contemporary islanders as a part of the U.S. in some political sense. For instance at Reliable sources/notice board Diff , where he notes sources say that in 1901 Insular Cases began judicially making territories not “a part of the United States” … by withholding citizenship, elective self government and delegate Member of Congress as “dangerous” to the American republic. But he refuses to concede that Congress had made any law post WWII regarding contemporary islanders citizens with elective self governance and a delegate Member of Congress. There is no counter to the six modern scholars including the five major territories, only his anachronistically applying what the Supreme Court did do in 1901 — which it undoubtedly did then in a racist fashion — to the 21st century islander -- including those of Northern Mariana Islands who chose constitutional "political union" with the U.S. by UN supervised plebiscite in the 1980s.
Now there are still serious problems. While the poorest American Samoa is better off than the island-nation of Samoa, admitting hundreds of family members yearly, the richest Puerto Rico has half the mean income of the poorest state Mississippi. The EPA has required Guam to clean up WWII military hazardous waste in dump sites at territorial expense. Problems.
Puerto Rico or DC might gain statehood as 60% favored it in the last plebiscite with 80% participation (and another is scheduled), but it is unlikely that any of the others will unless they join another state such as Hawaii for the Pacific islands or Florida for the U.S. Virgin Islands. So, I would favor using the Organic Acts to make delegate Members of Congress extra-constitutionally voting Representatives in the House immediately. And were PR to become a state, as it is larger than 20 smaller states in population, it would gain four seats in the House, so it should receive that count by Organic Act as well. DC is larger than only two states, it would still have one representative. Senators to follow statehood. But I have drifted of the topic of the lead sentence sourcing. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 08:50, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
I am fine with the most recent proposal and sad that TFD hasn't been participating in mediation very frequently. There is no way I'm going near the intro, though. All of my efforts are going to be suggesting proposals to consolidate the economy section to reflect the declining real incomes of the middle class and the reasons for them in a more accessible way. On reflection after reading through that mediation, that section and it's subsection are terrible. EllenCT (talk) 21:28, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the fact-check. I found the collaboration to cutting the history section difficult, but I think the economy section requires similar consolidation as well. I wish you well, and will chime in if I think I can help. I think that the scope discussion overlaps a bit where the U.S. reports some economic data internationally based on 50 states, DC and Puerto Rico, so consistency of the 50/DC aggregation alone for data bases should not be arbitrarily enforced by WP editors. Most important relative to the stability of the page is that the issue of constitutional status of DC, the territories and possessions not be addressed, since they are various, ambiguous and unfortunately contentious. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 11:39, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
Hi, TheVirginiaHistorian, I noticed your revert, would you be so kind as to explain exactly what I did wrong in your opinion? Thank you for your time. Lotje (talk) 07:24, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
I'm going to chime in here as I've noticed that many of the NPS links are not working anymore. (Lovely collection of HTTP 404's with their logo, and occasionally an NPS Apology Page--their name, not mine.) This now includes the ABPP summaries which stopped working in the past few days. I've had little luck in getting such things repaired by the NPS in the past. I'm in favor of using the written paper page numbers and such with paper cites rather than these completely unreliable NPS web page links. NPS IT seems to be in the habit for randomly scrambling them. Red Harvest (talk) 22:09, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
Agree. I'm slow getting back, life intervened.
The map/illustrations probably could bear reducing as Lotje successfully did.
But references should be open coded in standard English so the citation stands, even if the link is broken in the future. The previous edits reduced
I did put in a try at reworking the link placements. I’m still not sure it is fixed right. I would appreciate Lotje giving it another go on the illustration sizing. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 11:17, 19 April 2015 (UTC)