# User talk:Tkuvho

Welcome!

Hello, Tkuvho, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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Hi! Remember to add references to your page or the content in question may be deleted. Good luck and happy editing--Pianoplonkers (talk) 16:48, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

## Talk pages

We usually permit people to remove comments they have made from talk pages, as long as nobody else has responded to the comment. Of course the edits are still in the page history either way. There's not any overriding need to prevent people from retracting a statement that they later feel was ill considered. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:26, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

## Chang's conjecture

Yes, I plan to add material and re-organize that page. Not very soon, though. Currently I am visiting a different university and am busy with other things. Cheers. Kope (talk) 14:39, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

## Using Google Scholar hits or similar

Hi, if you check out Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Can Google hit counts ever be cited as a reliable source? there is a reasonable discussion about these sorts of sources. These are excluded from articles on the basis of SYNTH and OR. You can, of course, use the information to support a discussion about notability on the article talk page. In the case of Steve Shnider it may be better to find international awards for his work or independent reviews of his books as sources to add. Cheers—Ash (talk) 12:11, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

You seem to be insufficiently familiar with notability criteria for scientific articles. The criteria explicitly state that both math reviews and google SCHOLAR provide valid indications of notability. You seem further to confuse google and google scholar, a very different engine. Tkuvho (talk) 12:31, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Actually the Noticeboard discussion specifically discussed the case for Google Scholar. If you doubt this example discussion (just the first one I picked out) you can try searching RS/N for yourself. Notability of the article is not at issue, just the inclusion of this transient original research. As you do not seem to give much weight to my experience and have reversed my edit (again), I'll ask for an independent third opinion which may help explain the matter. I shall copy this discussion onto the article talk page for the convenience of an opinion.—Ash (talk) 13:15, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
I don't understand the logic behind your agreeing that "notability is not an issue" and at the same time insisting on placing the "notability" tag on the article. Informal discussions at the noticeboard are one thing, but guidelines to the effect that specifically in mathematics it is appropriate to use google scholar, another. Tkuvho (talk) 13:27, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

## Comment

Sorry, I think we got off on the wrong foot. Let's step back from all of this and try to find a mutually satisfactory solution at Dirac delta function. Best, Sławomir Biały (talk) 12:46, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

All feet are fine. I understand that you find the new material startling (I must say it was to me as well). Nonetheless, the current version of the page does not correspond to our historical knowledge. Tkuvho (talk) 12:47, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

## Let's discuss at the article's talk page

The paragraph needs expansion and improvement; we can discuss it there. Bill Wvbailey (talk) 16:18, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

## Luxemburg

When you changed Luxemburg from a redirect into a disambiguation page, you may not have noticed that nearly 200 other Wikipedia articles contain links to "Luxemburg". When you change the page that an existing title links to, "it is strongly recommended that you modify all pages that link to the old title so they will link to the new title." --R'n'B (call me Russ) 10:44, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

## History of logic

Hi - I have added to the section on post WW2 - would you have a look? Thanks From the other side (talk) 16:57, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I still think that your comment is written from an "inside" viewpoint of a mathematical logician, rather than the way it looks to a broader mathematical observer. I am perfectly happy with "history of logic" being written from such an "inside" viewpoint, but my own opinion is that Robinson's contribution, in the eyes of a broader public, does not appear more minor than any of the other items currently mentioned. Tkuvho (talk) 17:00, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

## Irrationals

Hi, I didn't see how to respond before. I have that book on request. I relied on a claim elsewhere that this is how he does it and the small amount I could see on Amazon.com I think that the 1947 "Theory of Functions" by Joseph Fell Ritt does this also (and more throughly) and am waiting to check. I finally tracked down a reference to the authoritative article Eléments d'analyse de Karl Weierstrass by Piere Dugac in the Archive for History of Exact Sciences Volume 10, Numbers 1-2 / January, 1973 Pages 41-174. Fortunately for me not all 134 pages are in French. Unfortunately those that aren't are notes in German and I don't really read either language (but the article no doubt covers much more than irrationals.) From what I have seen elsewhere he used aggregates of units and unit fractions noting that e is {1 1, 1/2,1/6,1/24,...} and {1/15, 1/15} (being 0.23333) is the same as {1/10,1/10,1/100,1/100,1/100,1/1000,...} Given one aggregate on can break a part 1/a into n parts 1/na like 1/3 into 1/12,1/12,1/12,1/12 then you have to explain operations, negatives and when x<y (when any finite subset of x can be dominated by a finite subset of y.) Now if all of his examples stick to aggregates using 1/10s, 1/00s , 1/100s etc. one has a case for decimal fractions. His students tended to describe his things as sums (additive aggregates) but he himself was careful to take them as whole infinite sets. --65.12.202.14 (talk) 05:20, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

I assume you are "gentlemath"? It would be interesting to sort this out. It is hard to believe that nobody in the English language was ever curious to find out whether Weierstrass did the reals by decimal expansions, or not. Dugac could not have been the only one to write about this. As far as the distinction between what weierstrass did and what his students did, this may be difficult to argue, since as far as I know Weierstass himself never wrote anything down in the form of either article or book. Tkuvho (talk) 10:03, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
If we continue the discussion at the talk page of construction of the real numbers other people would be able to contribute as well. Tkuvho (talk) 12:14, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

## Edit summaries

Hi Tkuvho, please use edit summaries (see Help:Edit summary). Thanks, Melchoir (talk) 21:38, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi Tkuvho, This [1] looks like a good-faith edit with an edit-summary, and so deserves an edit-summary if it is to be reverted (e.g. rv: makes article inconsistent if not applied throughout). Thanks, --catslash (talk) 11:00, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

## Proposed deletion of Six cross-ratios

The article Six cross-ratios has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Unnecessary content fork of Cross-ratio#Symmetry. Unlikely to be a search term so redirect isn't appropriate.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{dated prod}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. RDBury (talk) 16:13, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

I think that "six cross-ratios" can be a useful item in a list of articles in the category "projective geometry". It allows the reader to find the material he is looking for quicker. Some of the items that would be appropriate on this page would be too esoteric for inclusion at the main page cross-ratio, for instance a more detailed explanation why the sixth root of unity gives an orbit with only two elements. Giving a convincing explanation of the role of the Klein 4-group would also be too detailed for the main page, which is too long already. The topic of the present page is of independent interest, which should qualify it for a separate page. The corresponding section at cross-ratio should be shortened to include only the essentials. Tkuvho (talk) 16:25, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

In projective geometry, there is a number of definitions of the cross-ratio. However, they all differ from each other by a suitable permutation of the coordinates. In general, there are six possible different values the cross-ratio $(z_1,z_2;z_3,z_4)$ can take depending on the order in which the points zi are given.

## Action of symmetric group

Since there are 24 possible permutations of the four coordinates, some permutations must leave the cross-ratio unaltered. In fact, exchanging any two pairs of coordinates preserves the cross-ratio:

$(z_1,z_2;z_3,z_4) = (z_2,z_1;z_4,z_3) = (z_3,z_4;z_1,z_2) = (z_4,z_3;z_2,z_1).\,$

Using these symmetries, there can then be 6 possible values of the cross-ratio, depending on the order in which the points are given. These are:

 $(z_1, z_2; z_3, z_4) = \lambda\,$ $(z_1, z_2; z_4, z_3) = {1\over\lambda}$ $(z_1, z_3; z_4, z_2) = {1\over{1-\lambda}}$ $(z_1, z_3; z_2, z_4) = 1-\lambda\,$ $(z_1, z_4; z_3, z_2) = {\lambda\over{\lambda-1}}$ $(z_1, z_4; z_2, z_3) = {{\lambda-1}\over\lambda}$

## Six cross-ratios as Möbius transformations

Viewed as Möbius transformations, the six cross-ratios listed above represent torsion elements of PGL(2,Z). Namely, $\frac{1}{\lambda}$, $\;1-\lambda\,$, and $\frac{\lambda}{\lambda-1}$ are of order 2 in PGL(2,Z), with fixed points, respectively, -1, 1/2, and 2 (namely, the orbit of the harmonic cross-ratio). Meanwhile, elements $\frac{1}{1-\lambda}$ and $\frac{\lambda-1}{\lambda}$ are of order 3 in PGL(2,Z). Each of them fixes both values $e^{\pm i\pi/3}$ of the "most symmetric" cross-ratio.

## Role of Klein four-group

In the language of group theory, the symmetric group S4 acts on the cross-ratio by permuting coordinates. The kernel of this action is isomorphic to the Klein four-group K. This group consists of 2-cycle permutations of type $(ab)(cd)$ (in addition to the identity), which preserve the cross-ratio. The effective symmetry group is then the quotient group $S_4/K$, which is isomorphic to S3.

## Exceptional orbits

For certain values of λ there will be an enhanced symmetry and therefore fewer than six possible values for the cross-ratio. These values of λ correspond to fixed points of the action of S3 on the Riemann sphere (given by the above six functions); or, equivalently, those points with a non-trivial stabilizer in this permutation group.

The first set of fixed points is {0, 1, ∞}. However, the cross-ratio can never take on these values if the points {zi} are all distinct. These values are limit values as one pair of coordinates approach each other:

$(z,z_2;z,z_4) = (z_1,z;z_3,z) = 0\,$
$(z,z;z_3,z_4) = (z_1,z_2;z,z) = 1\,$
$(z,z_2;z_3,z) = (z_1,z;z,z_4) = \infty.$

The second set of fixed points is {−1, 1/2, 2}. This situation is what is classically called the harmonic cross-ratio, and arises in projective harmonic conjugates. In the real case, there are no other exceptional orbits.

The most symmetric cross-ratio occurs when $\lambda = e^{\pm i\pi/3}$. These are then the only two possible values of the cross-ratio.

## Talkback: Nils von Barth, PGL fix

Hello, Tkuvho. You have new messages at Nbarth's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

## I have marked you as a reviewer

I have added the "reviewers" property to your user account. This property is related to the Pending changes system that is currently being tried. This system loosens page protection by allowing anonymous users to make "pending" changes which don't become "live" until they're "reviewed". However, logged-in users always see the very latest version of each page with no delay. A good explanation of the system is given in this image. The system is only being used for pages that would otherwise be protected from editing.

If there are "pending" (unreviewed) edits for a page, they will be apparent in a page's history screen; you do not have to go looking for them. There is, however, a list of all articles with changes awaiting review at Special:OldReviewedPages. Because there are so few pages in the trial so far, the latter list is almost always empty. The list of all pages in the pending review system is at Special:StablePages.

To use the system, you can simply edit the page as you normally would, but you should also mark the latest revision as "reviewed" if you have looked at it to ensure it isn't problematic. Edits should generally be accepted if you wouldn't undo them in normal editing: they don't have obvious vandalism, personal attacks, etc. If an edit is problematic, you can fix it by editing or undoing it, just like normal. You are permitted to mark your own changes as reviewed.

The "reviewers" property does not obligate you to do any additional work, and if you like you can simply ignore it. The expectation is that many users will have this property, so that they can review pending revisions in the course of normal editing. However, if you explicitly want to decline the "reviewer" property, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:33, 18 June 2010 (UTC) — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:56, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

## copied from reference desk aug 3

OK, I have to jump in here. No, in fact that is not possible. Any two "reasonable" models of set theory must agree on the truth value of CH. Conditions for the models to be "reasonable" in this sense: First, both should be wellfounded models (that is, not just neither thinks there is an infinite descending epsilon chain, but there really isn't an infinite descending epsilon chain in either model). Second, both models, after taking their Mostowski collapses (so that they have the true natural numbers), should contain all sets of natural numbers, and all sets of sets of natural numbers.
If you have two models like that, they agree on the truth value of CH, and the value they agree on is the correct truth value. --Trovatore (talk) 07:46, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Are you saying that in a "reasonable" model, CH is necessarily true? Tkuvho (talk) 08:35, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
No, not at all. I'm saying that all such models agree on the truth value of CH. Which way they agree, we don't know at the current time. --Trovatore (talk) 16:35, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
This is very intriguing. Is this your own work? How does one prove this sort of result? Tkuvho (talk) 11:27, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
It's actually trivial. CH is equivalent to a sentence of third-order arithmetic ($\Sigma^2_1$ in fact: "there exists a linear order on P(ω) whose every proper initial segment is countable"), and Trovatore's condition says exactly that the parts of the two models corresponding to third-order arithmetic are the same. What I don't understand is why on earth should this condition be considered "reasonable".—Emil J. 11:45, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
The point I'm really getting at is that there's a certain rather ill-conceived point of view that attempts to maintain a version of realism (there is a model of this or that) while maintaining that propositions like CH are not determinate. If there are models, then we should be able to ask questions of them like "does such and such a model have all subsets of its naturals?". And you don't even have to go all the way to P(P(omega)) to see that CH must be determinate; all you need to do is interrogate wellfounded models that contain all of P(omega). If all such models agree on the truth value of CH, then they are correct. On the other hand, if there are two such models that disagree, then CH is true. --Trovatore (talk) 15:27, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
(←) Trovatore's argument is reasonable and compatible with a certain realist interpretation of set theory. That argument comes down to arguing that there is one "Standard Universe" of set theory that encompasses "all sets". It's an important argument to understand, because it's very common, and other viewpoints are often explained by contrasting them with it.
In general, asking whether a model M has all subsets of its naturals seems to require one of:
1. A well-defined notion of "all subsets" that can be used to test M without reference to an external model. To support Trovatore's argument here, you need to argue that "all subsets" is already well-defined independent of any model of set theory. One counterargument is that our experience with forcing makes the existence of such a well-defined notion suspect. That is, the extremely concrete way in which we can turn CH on and off by forcing suggests that there is no natural definition of the meaning of "all sets" that can decide CH.
2. An external "reference" model E, which can be used to test M. But then we can ask about testing E, which leads to an infinite regress. This is one motivation for the "multiverse" argument, which I'll mention in a moment. Of course, if the "Standard Universe" exists then we can use that for E, but claiming that the Standard Universe is well defined is essentially equivalent to (1).
Here are slides from a talk that Joel David Hamkins gave earlier this year about what he calls the "multiverse view" of set theory. I didn't see the talk, and slides always have to be taken with a grain of salt; Hamkins has announced papers that will have more details and proofs.
The multiverse viewpoint is a realist view of set theory that argues there is no single intended model of set theory, but instead a whole lot of models. At any moment we work within one of them. Gitman and Hamkins have proved [2] that if ZFC is consistent then there is a nonempty collection of models of ZFC ("universes") satisfying the following "multiverse axioms":
• If V is a universe and W is a definable class model of ZFC within V then W is a universe.
• For any universe V and any forcing notion P, there is a generic extension V[G] which is a universe.
• Every universe is an initial segment of the cumulative hierarchy of some other universe.
• Every universe is countable within some other universe.
• Every universe is ill-founded within some other universe.
The multiverse viewpoint would say that instead of a single Standard Universe there is instead a multiverse of universes. From this viewpoint, the concept of "a universe" is well defined, but Trovatore's argument does not go through, because neither requirement (1) or (2) is available.
Now the entire "multiverse" argument is relatively young, and I expect to see arguments against it published over time. So my opinion is that it should be viewed as a proposal at this point. One key advantage it has is that it's more compatible with actual practice, where set theorists routinely do forcing arguments over V that would not make sense from the perspective of the Standard Universe theory. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:58, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

## Order of journals

Hello, Tkuvho. The Journal for Research in Mathematics Education is ranked by Journal Rankings as by far the most cited journal in mathematics education. In fact, it is 4th among all educational research journals of ANY topic. On the other hand, Wikipedia has tagged the ESM article as "may not meet the general notability guideline". Not being familiar with ESM, I can't really judge, though I have to admit that any journal established by Freudenthal is surely significant. I don't really think the order is that important, so I won't quibble over this, but I really don't think the most cited journal should be placed seventh. It's not a prestige thing -- I just want the Wikipedia article to be helpful to those who might not know where to turn. The most important journals should be placed near the top of the list. I'll put JRME second. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seberle (talkcontribs) 19:43, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

No problem, I was just objecting to a subjective reordering of the sort that can only lead to an edit war. Which "Journal Rankings" is this, by the way? Is it ISI Thompson impact factor type of thing? Tkuvho (talk) 19:46, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Yes, an edit war over something as subjective as "preeminence" would be silly. I was using Journal-Rankings.com, which is the only site I am familiar with, though I know there are others. If you know another good site that ranks journals, I would be interested to hear it. The Journal-Rankings.com website seems to be malfunctioning today.
Now that I look at my EndNote records, I see that I have quite a number of articles from ESM (almost as many as JRME). I never really noticed before! I think that template on the ESM Wikipedia article should be removed, but I'm not sure if something more is involved in a "notability" tag than simply removing the template? --seberle (talk) 20:04, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

## More on CH

Could you please clarify the point about the simultaneous truth or falsity of CH in certain class of models? This might interest more readers than one, and could be a useful addition at continuum hypothesis or a related page. Tkuvho (talk) 11:02, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
So yesterday when someone asked on the refdesk about the number of ultrafilters, I went Googling and happened upon an old sci.math post of my own that someone had archived. In the same archive there was a post by me on the subject you're asking about. See http://www.math.niu.edu/~rusin/known-math/00_incoming/undecideable and scroll down to the last post. --Trovatore (talk) 08:29, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
If you could elaborate on that material, I would appreciate it. It might also be of interest to a reader of a page such as continuum hypothesis. Tkuvho (talk) 12:42, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
How much do you know about descriptive set theory? The arithmetical hierarchy (first-order arithmetic) and analytical hierarchy (second-order arithmetic) can be naturally generalized to third-order arithmetic: here you have formulas with three types of variables and quantifiers: one type for natural numbers, one type for sets of natural numbers (which are identified with real numbers, as usual in set theory), and one type for sets of sets of natural numbers (= sets of reals). The formulas, normalized to prenex normal form where all third-order quantifiers are in front, are stratified into a hierarchy where you count the number of blocks of existential or universal third-order quantifiers, in particular, $\Sigma^2_1$ which I mentioned there denotes formulas consisting of a block of third-order existential quantifiers followed by a formula with only first-order and second-order quantifiers. The claim is that CH is equivalent in ZFC to a $\Sigma^2_1$-formula.
First, CH is equivalent to the statement (*) "there exists a linear order on R whose every proper initial segment is countable": on the one hand, CH implies the existence of a well-order of R of type ω1. On the other hand, assume that < is any linear order on R whose every proper initial segment is countable. As with every linear order, R contains a cofinal well-ordered subset X under <. The condition on initial segments ensures that X has type at most ω1, and since R is the union of initial segments (which are all countable) bounded by elements of X, it has cardinality at most $\aleph_1$.
What remains is to write (*) as a $\Sigma^2_1$ formula. Since all three types have definable pairing functions, we can use quantifiers for binary, ternary, etc., relations instead of just subsets. Thus we can start with an existential third-order quantifier for a binary relation < on R. We can say that < is a linear order with a bunch of quantifiers over R (i.e., second-order in our setting) just by stating the usual axioms. Then we state that "for every a in R, the initial segment {x in R|x < a} is countable". The last part is slightly tricky and I'm not going to write it down explicitly, but the point is that we can encode a function NR (= P(N)) by a subset of N × N (and therefore by a real).—Emil J. 17:58, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

## Moved section

I moved the section on "truth" from the incompleteness theorems talk page to the arguments page. Your original question was directly about the article, but the section is drifting away from the article, and several people have asked if we can keep the talk page very on-topic. I would be glad to continue the discussion in more depth in the new location, although I think you will get a broader set of opinions from the reference desk. — Carl (CBM · talk) 00:01, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

## stereographic projection

It doesn't matter where the plane is, so long as it is parallel to the tangent plane at the point of projection. Given two planes, one tangent at the antipode and one (parallel to it) passing through the center, the only difference between the resulting maps is the scale. I'll look for a place in the article to make this point. —Tamfang (talk) 22:54, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh, it's already there. —Tamfang (talk) 04:16, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

## Unreferenced BLPs

Hello Tkuvho! Thank you for your contributions. I am a bot notifying you on behalf of the the unreferenced biographies team that 1 of the articles that you created is currently tagged as an Unreferenced Biography of a Living Person. The biographies of living persons policy requires that all personal or potentially controversial information be sourced. In addition, to ensure verifiability, all biographies should be based on reliable sources. If you were to bring this article up to standards, it would greatly help us with the current 1,665 article backlog. Once the article is adequately referenced, please remove the {{unreferencedBLP}} tag. Here is the article:

1. Victor Bangert - Find sources: "Victor Bangert" – news · newspapers · books · scholar · JSTOR · free images

Thanks!--DASHBot (talk) 23:11, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

## Constructive proof of irrationality SQRT(2)

Hi Tkuvho.

Can I ask you to respond to some comments I've put on the talk page of Square root of 2 regarding the 'constructive' proof? Principally I note the classic proof is regarded as constructive anyway (it being an error to suppose constructive proofs never use contradiction), that the section needs to be rewritten more transparently and that it's really not notable in this context and should be deleted or merged with Constructive proof. I've also added some remarks about the proof by infinite descent (wrong-headed) and proof by unique factorisation (laboured and including a non-sequitor) which I propose eventually to edit if not addressed soon. Rinpoche (talk) 01:01, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I had to write you here, because what you said in the article talk page to me is very confusing...(and seems the opposite of what is actually true.)

I don't see how what I tried to put in the article "contradicts" anything in the lead, as right in the very paragraph already, where I (attempted to) put the point, it said ALREADY previously these exact words "it is not the same sort of number as the real numbers." What I tried to put in fit RIGHT ALONG with that. If it didn't, can't you maybe explain just how not? And where exactly would there have been any actual "contradiction"? The article itself says fairly clearly that "infinity" is "not a real number."

Also too, in the very first paragraph, it says that infinity is a "concept" that is "without end." What I tried to put was "a quality of endlessness." Or concept of endlessness.... exactly what was said in the lead itself. So I'm a little confused by what you just said.... Can you please clarify? Thanks...ResearchRave (talk) 10:23, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Could you remind me what comment you wanted to add exactly? Tkuvho (talk) 10:27, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

## Goodstein's theorem

It is hard for me to clarify the comment about Goodstein's theorem at non-standard model of arithmetic without knowing exactly what you find confusing. If I went into detail about everything I mentioned it would fill up several pages. Do you have specific questions? Luqui (talk) 10:17, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Let's move to talk:non-standard model of arithmetic. Tkuvho (talk) 10:26, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

## Frege's mathematics

I liked your question and it really deserved a better, detailed answer.--Radh (talk) 08:11, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

OK, let me know. Tkuvho (talk) 13:04, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

## Curvature edit

I hope you don't mind, but I undid your recent edit to curvature. I see that perhaps what I had written was a bit unclear. Components of the principal axes might refer to the coordinates of the axes themselves, whereas what I meant was the coefficients that arise in the diagonalization of the quadratic form. I wasn't sure what the standard term for these were. "Lengths of the principal axes" is nearly right, but that is only correct in the positive curvature case. Any thoughts on what the right way to phrase this is? Sławomir Biały (talk) 15:12, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

The right way is to call them the eigenvalues of the shape operator which is selfadjoint and therefore has real eigenvalues. Tkuvho (talk) 15:40, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
As you probably noticed, I already mentioned the shape operator up front. However, I feel it is significant to mention the second fundamental form as well, since I think this is more familiar to people with little background in differential geometry (not to mention that the section is titled "Second fundamental form"). Classically, the principal curvatures are gotten by orthogonally diagonalizing the second fundamental form. One way to say this is that they are the eigenvalues of the matrix representing the second fundamental form in an orthonormal basis—although you could argue that there is no real content to this statement since it's trivially equivalent to being an eigenvalue of the shape operator. Anyway, I've tried now to include both points of view in a manner satisfying your objections. Sławomir Biały (talk) 16:14, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
Here we are working with an extrinsic point of view, not an intrinsic point of view. Therefore it is not clear whether you are referring to an orthonormal basis of the ambient space or for the tangent plane of the surface. If this is to be done properly it should be done at the second fundamental form page, after setting up the proper notation, but not here. Tkuvho (talk) 16:47, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, that's helpful. I have tried to rewrite the section to describe the second fundamental form in words first, then symbols, and then note the relationship with the principal curvatures. I've tried not to be too technical (indeed, it isn't my goal to "do it properly" here, but rather to observe appropriate summary style). The connection with the shape operator now comes later. Sławomir Biały (talk) 17:10, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Rather than improvising I think one should choose a respected textbook and follow its presentation. I personally have a strong aversion to adopting the "long way" to principal curvature, which masks their inherent simplicity and basis-independence, namely as eigenvalues of the shape operator which can be defined without choosing a basis on the surface (let alone an orthonormal basis which can only exist at a point, etc), but I admit not all textbooks adopt this approach. Tkuvho (talk) 17:13, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
The article already defines the principal curvatures. The goal at present is to discuss the second fundamental form in a satisfactory way. Sławomir Biały (talk) 17:17, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

## Distinction between the first-order and higher order logics

In the article First-order logic you claim that quantification is not allowed over sets. That is incorrect. If it were so, for example, many of the axioms of Zermelo–Fraenkel set theory would be of higher order. Still, it is commonly held that axioms in ZFC are in the domain of the First-order logic. Therefore it would be better to keep to the common distinction between the first and higher order logics, like that in Encyclopedic Dictionary of Mathematics, second edition, (Symbolic Logic, 411K) "... ordinary predicate logic is called first-order predicate logic while predicate logic dealing with quantifiers [for all P] and [there is P] for predicate variable P is called second-order predicate logic." Lauri.pirttiaho (talk) 12:26, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

How does the axiom asserting the existence of a least upper bound for a bounded set in R fit into this, in your opinion? Tkuvho (talk) 16:44, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Special examples of axioms expressible in the first-order logic do not affect the way it is defined. The definition is based on a convention which is that in the first order logic the variables can represent also sets. (See the article on Zermelo–Fraenkel set theory for examples).Lauri.pirttiaho (talk) 07:15, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi, Your assertion that I was making "a lame excuse for indulging Bourbakism" really hurt my feelings. For one thing, it was not my intention to do anything of the sort. I was merely trying to make some personal observations from a sociological point of view that might help explain why our treatment of many mathematical topics is not accessible to laymen. However, you seem to have not read my post for what it was. My intention was to make some candid observations about my own behavior on Wikipedia, and I found your aggressive response totally inappropriate. I would like you to know that I have found this entire episode to be so stressful and aggravating that I am considering leaving the project for good. Best wishes, Sławomir Biały (talk) 14:27, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Hope you decide to stay. Your contribution here is appreciated. Sorry my criticism of Bourbakism aggravated you. Really it is a criticism of a certain style of writing whose merits we seem to evaluate differently. I don't see why disagreement should lead to personal confrontations. We collaborated constructively at such pages as Dirac delta and I hope this continues. Tkuvho (talk) 14:34, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. I think I just need to keep away for awhile. I'm very sorry about the personal confrontation. I enjoy working constructively with you as well, and regret that our recent disagreement has become such a nuisance to both of us. Best, Sławomir Biały (talk) 14:37, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
Thanks, what a relief. Tkuvho (talk) 14:38, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

## I guess an apology is due

I'm sorry for being mean to you on the talk pages. I thought you were a troll, now I regret that I have rushed to that conclusion as I see that your desire to improve Wikipedia is sincere and that you are a good mathematician, much better than I am. I hope I'll be able to productively collaborate with you in future. — Kallikanzaridtalk 19:01, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

No problem. Tkuvho (talk) 16:46, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

## Input requested at Non-Legendrian geometry

I'm out of my element at Non-Legendrian geometry. Hilbert's thesis is a bit vague, and my German isn't good enough to make much out of Dehn's article. I would appreciate it if you could have a look. Thanks, Sławomir Biały (talk) 22:55, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

I will defer to your judgment in all things here. When I asked your assistance, I was in the untenable position of trying to edit the article based solely on the translation of Hilbert's thesis, which made both vague and apparently contradictory assertions. Your suggestion of a merger seems like a good one, if you can manage to decipher something reasonably accurate. I'd be happy to facilitate this, if you could just tell me what to do. Best, Sławomir Biały (talk) 15:01, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
I am not sure what Dehn's other example is that would contradict Legendre's theorem. At any rate, it has nothing to do with the construction presented here, as the Zentralblatt review illlustrates. Tkuvho (talk) 15:11, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

## Page move

Hi

You have reverted Non-Legendrian geometry back to The Dehn plane which was discussed and had no consesnsus, in fact consensus was against the name "Dehn plane".

Page titles do not have "the" in them.

What are you doing putting it back without consulting anyone or gaining consensus for that change?

Chaosdruid (talk) 21:10, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your interest. Does the example discussed in this page have anything to do with non-legendrian geometry? Tkuvho (talk) 06:10, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
It makes no difference, the point is that titles do not have "The" in them and you moved it against the consensus which agreed to not use Dehn plane in the page title. If Non-Legendrian is incorrect then the page title should not have been moved to a title with "Dehn plane" in it. Chaosdruid (talk) 18:53, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

## Immanuel Beit Yaakov controversy

Hi Tkuvho! Please feel free to engage on the talk page where a discussion is going on. —Ynhockey (Talk) 13:13, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I gather it takes two to engage. Tkuvho (talk) 13:16, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

P.S. If you are the same editor as Ki imanu kel, which is implied in your signature on the talk page, please take the following steps. —Ynhockey (Talk) 13:25, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I am not planning to use the other account; I originally created it because Immanuel is outside my main wiki interests. Tkuvho (talk) 13:33, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Dear TKUVKO

I did many changes were made on the Hebrew site on the Emanuel page under "education"

They were wiped out within a couple of hours with no explanantion

Hebrew is not my first language. Can you look on the page and the histories under Becky613? I regret that I did not save a full page to forward to you. I am sure I complied with Wiki policies. Many thanks

see עמנואל Wiki page

Becky613 (talk) 15:41, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Dear Tkuvko,

are you still available to evaluate the Wiki page on Immanuel Beis Yaakov? I did not enable my email as I did not want my address all over wiki...would be willing to write in private.

Becky613 (talk) 03:56, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Becky613 (talk) 04:03, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

## Dehn and the page we are discussing

Hi

Please be aware that the page move has caused many problems with redirects which the bots are still trying to resolve. (such as [3], [4], [5], [6], [7] and [8])

Can you please take a look at any others and try and fix them. Chaosdruid (talk) 16:11, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

## Nomination of A. H. Lightstone for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article A. H. Lightstone is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/A. H. Lightstone until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 14:57, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

## A. H. Lightstone

Your thanks are appreciated, and you're welcome; oddly, it was the listing in AfD that caught my eye, and I would initially have written it off as likely to just flip to a math article, as I stated in the discussion, but I believe it now stands on its own. By the time I was ready to save, a lot had been added, which took longer to go through and match formatting, although it has mostly been reformatted since. The lifespan was a very minor item in dozens of pages I'd gone through, but helps explain the poor review of his posthumously published work. I'm still unable to source exact dates & place of birth & death, his cause of death at 49(50?) and obituary, wife's name, and even 'Canadian', which I expect someone else actually knows even if they haven't sourced it, either. It makes me wish I had more training in math, which I've always found interesting. I can only hope that someone actually writes a book on the man someday. Cheers, and thanks. Dru of Id (talk) 13:08, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. There is already a related book on Robinson, by Joseph Dauben, which might interest you. Lightstone may have some relatives in Canada who may be able to provide more precise biographic information. Tkuvho (talk) 14:00, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

## Proposed deletion of Robert Goldblatt

The article Robert Goldblatt has been proposed for deletion because under Wikipedia policy, all biographies of living persons created after March 18, 2010, must have at least one source that directly supports material in the article.

If you created the article, please don't take offense. Instead, consider improving the article. For help on inserting references, see Wikipedia:Referencing for beginners or ask at Wikipedia:Help desk. Once you have provided at least one reliable source, you may remove the {{prod blp}} tag. Please do not remove the tag unless the article is sourced. If you cannot provide such a source within ten days, the article may be deleted, but you can request that it be undeleted when you are ready to add one. Zakhalesh (talk) 07:59, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

## Jacek Malinowski

Since you're at creating biographies of logicians, I realized that the editor-in-chief of Studia Logica doesn't have one. He is well known for books and articles on multi-valued logic. Tijfo098 (talk) 15:08, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Requesting Assisitance from Tkuvko

Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_in_Israel Please note the history of the line "June 17: Immanuel Beit Yaakov controversy." My revisions have been undone within a very short amount of time. Any suggestions? Thank you 77Line (talk) 10:50, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Dear TKUVKO

I did many changes were made on the Hebrew site on the Emanuel page under "education". They were wiped out within a couple of hours with no explanantion. I am sure I complied with Wiki policies. Many thanks

see עמנואל Wiki page. I did not enable my email as I did not want my address all over wiki. Would be willing to write in private.

Becky613 (talk) 04:12, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

I have gmail now. How do I get it to you? I need your advice about the Wiki Hebrew page. Thanks

Becky613 (talk) 03:31, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

## Ivar Ekeland and DYK

I nominated Ivar Ekeland along with Robert Phelps. However, in a fivefold expansion of the article beginning on April 8th and finishing an hour ago, I added a new hook on Ekeland and Jurassic Park, which has an image of the Lorentz Attractor. The new hook and the image should attract more readers, so I de-nominated your original article (beginning 3 April, I believe). I'll alert you when the article appears, and of course you can increment your DYK counter when the new one appears. Sincerely,  Kiefer.Wolfowitz  (Discussion) 11:31, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

The article should appear on 21 April.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz  (Discussion) 21:50, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Please don't restore WP:COPYVIO as you did at Adequality William M. Connolley (talk) 21:09, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

What violation? Tkuvho (talk) 04:37, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
As discussed on the talk page. Pretending you haven't seen the discussion won't make it go away William M. Connolley (talk) 08:54, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

## Off-topic discussion on Talk:0.999...

You have restored an off-topic discussion to 0.999...'s talk page three times. I've removed it again, according to the guidelines in Wikipedia:TALK and Talk:0.999...'s FAQ. If you feel that the discussion still belongs there, let's talk it out here and reach an agreement. Otherwise, we can go through dispute resolution.

To make things easy, let me start by suggesting that you move the discussion to either the arguments page or this less-regulated page, both of which were created for the specific purpose of discussions like yours. Gustave the Steel (talk) 07:42, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Follow-up: Carl persuaded me to leave the discussion where it is. The first two messages were definitely off-topic and should have been removed; however, your comment beginning with "The article could devote more attention.." was definitely topical, and I was wrong to remove it or any of its replies. Let me propose something: since your second reply begins a new discussion that doesn't relate very much to the initial post, can we move it under a new section and delete the anonymous comment and your first reply (both of which are indisputably off-topic)? This would allow us to remove the non-mathematical arguments and leave a purely on-topic discussion about improving the article. I'll await your reply before taking action. Gustave the Steel (talk) 18:47, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

First of all, thanks for the constructive tone of your remarks. We could follow the course you suggest; on the other hand, I think the IP's comments are relevant to the suggestion to include a mention of adequality in the lede; namely, his comments substantiate R. Ely's contention that these are persistent nonstandard (and not erroneous) intuitions. We get one every few weeks at Talk:0.999.... Again, student intuitions are not "hyperreal"; it would be absurd to claim that. Rather, they are infinitesimal intuitions, in a respectable tradition of the Law of Continuity, for example. Tkuvho (talk) 07:30, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

## Generality of algebra

The new article that you created at Generality of algebra seems to be very poor quality at the moment. It doesn't say what the "generality of algebra" principle actually is, there are no examples showing how it can be applied, and there are no references to sources that show where and how this phrase is actually used. Unless you can expand the article and add sources, I will be inclined to propose deletion or initiate an AfD discussion. Gandalf61 (talk) 10:37, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your interest. The generality of algebra is a well-known principle that's mentioned by every serious historian of the period. I certainly hope to provide some references soon. You can do that, too! Tkuvho (talk) 18:25, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
I'd like to encourage you to beef up the article a bit. There seems to be an inordinate amount of hostility towards this simple stub. I would do it myself, but I think your ability to contextualize the relevant sources properly exceeds my own. Sławomir Biały (talk) 21:10, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

## Proposed deletion of Generality of algebra

The article Generality of algebra has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

No evidence of notability, or indeed even of existence

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. William M. Connolley (talk) 18:53, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

## Euclid

Euclid's method was taken as the model of reasoning for more than 2000 years, inspiring similar attempts by Spinoza, etc. (Lakatos refers to the "Euclidean spirit", perhaps in a Hegelian sense, if my memory is correct.)

Other axiom systems appeared. As you know, Peirce was more important than Peano in the rise of mathematical logic, particularly with the Dedekind-Peirce development of natural numbers, etc.

I dislike the prominence given to Popper in WP, which seems to reflect a vogue among social scientists around the 1950s-1970s (connected to Kuhn's ascent). I've only heard philosophers joke about Popper (and nobody takes Kuhn seriously), but still WP articles seem obsessed with Popper-centric intellectual history. 09:19, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

I responded there. Peirce can certainly be added to the list of Hilbert and Peano, even though his contribution was much less influential. Tkuvho (talk) 09:21, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
I think you should reconsider your claim that nobody takes Kuhn seriously if your edits are to be taken seriously. Tkuvho (talk) 09:22, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Popper, Feyerabend, and Lakatos took Kuhn seriously as a popular writer who made very interesting observations, but whose attempts at philosophy were flawed; MacIntyre made interesting comments on Kuhn/Polanyi. I am unaware of any philosopher who thinks that Kuhn represents a significant advance in the philosophy of science. Honestly, 18:14, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

## Monty Hall problem at Misconceptions

Could you please provide at Talk:List of common misconceptions#Monty Hall problem the information from Schuyler W. Huck, Statistical Misconceptions that confirms that this is a common misconception? A direct quotation would be very helpful. Most of us don't have access to that source. Thanks. Cresix (talk) 16:27, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

I copied it from a google scholar link provided by Bialy at that very talkpage! It should be accessible to everybody. I will try to provide an electronic link. Tkuvho (talk) 16:28, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Now I can see it. Many thanks. Just so you'll know, I may challenge that this is a common misconception after I have more time to read the source. That's not a challenge of your good faith edits, of course, and I won't remove the item unless there is a consensus. My personal opinion is that "famous example of a cognitive illusion" means that it is common among those who think about cognitive illusions (i.e., mathematicians, psychologists, etc.), but not a common misconception among the general population. But that's just my opinion. Anyway, thanks for the link. Cresix (talk) 16:51, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

## Kerala school of astronomy and mathematics

In case you are not clear about why I reverted your section heading change at Kerala school of astronomy and mathematics, here is an explanation. The text in that section at present talks about the transmission of knowledge "to Europe through the trade route from Kerala". You may well believe that the Kerala school inherited earlier knowledge from Greece or elsewhere, and you are welcome to put this idea into the article (as long as you also provide a reliable source for it) - but you can't do that just by changing the section heading from "Possibility of transmission of Kerala School results to Europe" to "Possibility of transmission of European results to Kerala School and back". You must update the section text as well. Otherwise we are left with a section heading that says one thing and text that says another, which is nonsense. Gandalf61 (talk) 09:51, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi Gandalf61, That whole page bears an uncanny resemblance to the Indian section that was recently deleted altogether at history of mathematics. The authors of that page are certainly doing a disservice to the honorable tradition of mathematics in India. However, I don't think the current version can be taken seriously. The grandiose claims of european mathematicians stealing indian ideas is just the tip of the iceberg. Tkuvho (talk) 10:50, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

## History of calculus

There are documents which suggests that important results in modern calculus like power series etc. were introduced by Kerala School of Astronomy and Mathematics. In West, these results are assumed to be discovered people like Newton or Leibniz. Since these results are important cornerstones of modern calculus they need to be acknowledged in the History of Calculus. Current article appears to take only Western view about the whole thing and presents much of the History of Calculus in terms of the grand war between its purported inventors: Newton and Leibniz. But, given the current evidence other parts of the world may disagree with this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chenna001 (talkcontribs) 08:39, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Chenna, please sign your comments using four tildas "~" at the end. I agree with the main thrust of your comment. I suggest we continue the discussion at Talk:History of calculus. Note that I re-created the subsection on Indian mathematics that was deleted by another editor. Tkuvho (talk) 08:42, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
Tkvho

Sure. Good to see some open-mindedness about things. Chenna001 (talk) 08:48, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi Chenna. Material should be added to history of mathematics in small increments. The old version of the section on India was not acceptable (that's why it was deleted in the first place!). Tkuvho (talk) 09:24, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
Hi, you should note that not everything presented there is stated by Ian Pierce. There are other articles that are referring to things said there. So, if you delete, delete things that are directly stated by Pierce. I will find sources later. There are other sources for the same stuff which are given in the references cited by Pierce.Chenna001 (talk) 09:43, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
I am also replying to your comments on the discussion page.Chenna001 (talk) 09:46, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
Incremental change is the key to success. Tkuvho (talk) 11:13, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

## Mikhail Katz ‎

Can I draw your attention to You may remove this message if you improve the article or otherwise object to deletion for any reason. However please explain why you object to the deletion, either in your edit summary or on the talk page, which you must have missed? If you have a good reason, please provide it, and I won't bother put the article up for AFD William M. Connolley (talk) 10:22, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

This author meets the notability guidelines in terms of publications (including a book) as well as influence (mathscinet and google scholar). Tkuvho (talk) 10:25, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
It would have been better to have put that on the article talk page. Anyway, thank you for providing your reasons, but they do not to me seem to be sufficient William M. Connolley (talk) 10:43, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

## Warning: Civility

Stick to Islam, you are more knowledgeable in that area is an unacceptable edit comment [9]. Don't do that kind of thing William M. Connolley (talk) 16:06, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

On the contrary, I appreciate your work on ensuring objectivity in Islamic articles. As far as infinitesimal calculus is concerned, you have admitted yourself on the talkpage that you are not fully knowledgeable about the area. You should therefore stick to areas you are knowledgeable in. Tkuvho (talk) 20:13, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
Admission of lack of knowledge is the first step towards knowledge. You haven't got that far yet. Regardless: your comment remains unacceptable; don't repeat it. I have a degree in maths, which is more than sufficient expertise to edit in the area William M. Connolley (talk) 21:04, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
I take it the comment I boldfaced is not unacceptable. Tkuvho (talk) 03:42, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
You are flinging around claims of lack of knowledge. You really need to stop doing that, partly because (as I've said, and others have told you too) it just isn't a good way to try to win debates, and because your own knowledge in this area appears quite weak William M. Connolley (talk) 09:04, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
Sir William M. Connolley, My knowledge is weak. True. Let's try again. I left some comments at Talk:Ghosts of departed quantities that you have not responded to. Try to concentrate on what appears to be a content dispute, and avoid prologing personal recriminations. Tkuvho (talk) 09:30, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
The last thing I see there from you is a deliberate insult. I have deliberately avoided responding in kind. Perhaps you could do the right thing: remove that comment, and repeat whatever it is you wanted to discuss, but in polite terms William M. Connolley (talk) 16:23, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

I think everybody should try to step back from a conflict and try to resume best behavior. Tkuvho, since I have often agreed with you on various content questions, I hope you understand that I mean you well, when I state that I am concerned about your tone here. Sincerely, 18:10, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Let's focus on the next section. Tkuvho (talk) 18:13, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
I should say that Tkuvho has given me similar advice at times, for which I remain grateful. :-) Best regards, 18:16, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

## A civil content disagreement

Please see Talk:Ghosts_of_departed_quantities#Content_disagreement. Tkuvho (talk) 17:58, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

## Proposed deletion of Stephen Semmes

The article Stephen Semmes has been proposed for deletion because under Wikipedia policy, all biographies of living persons created after March 18, 2010, must have at least one source that directly supports material in the article.

If you created the article, please don't take offense. Instead, consider improving the article. For help on inserting references, see Wikipedia:Referencing for beginners or ask at Wikipedia:Help desk. Once you have provided at least one reliable source, you may remove the {{prod blp}} tag. Please do not remove the tag unless the article is sourced. If you cannot provide such a source within ten days, the article may be deleted, but you can request that it be undeleted when you are ready to add one.  CrossTempleJay  talk 15:15, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

This is a terrible PROD. Semmes is a world leader in metric analysis and has an endowed chair, which makes him easily pass PROF. 15:26, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
It may well be a terrible article, but it isn't obviously a terrible prod. The only source in the article is the chap's own homepage. If you meant to say "this chap is obviously notable" then you'll have no trouble finding sources William M. Connolley (talk) 15:32, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
True true. A few minutes on Math Reviews found a suitable statement, which is now quoted. 15:45, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

## Halmos is published. You are not.

Watch your tone. There is no need to get hostile, it turns that I am a) published, b) done research into Bishop (both through his writings and interviewing mathematicians who knew him personally) and written about him as part of the thesis writing requirement for my university that I chose to do on constructivism. Now I'll be frank I never attempted to publish that paper, and I am pretty sure I would have little trouble now if I tried. But it is not really the point. You do not "know me from adam". You have no inkling to what I have or have not published, and you could not possibly have any justification for making such claims.

As a side note, in a case like this it might be better, if you know of a reference, to cite the contested remark rather then simply reverting. Thenub314 (talk) 23:08, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi Thenub314, I was referring to the fact that Halmos's claim is sourced/published (see criticism of non-standard analysis), whereas yours is not. Whatever gave you the idea that I meant to assert that you did not publish anything at all? I think that was a very uncharitable interpretation of my edit summary. Obviously I was comparing "Halmos's remark" and "your remark", rather than comparing your publication records. I find it very interesting that you have written about Bishop, and I would certainly encourage you to publish your findings. At any rate, your edits at wiki indicate a broad knowledge and it would have been silly to claim that you are not a published mathematician, which was certainly not my intention. Tkuvho (talk) 01:17, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
Well maybe, I just need a refresher in AGF. I really was not away aware of Halmos's quote about Bishop, it will have to wait until my next trip to the library before I can read it fully. Bishop was always careful to stop his comments short from publically attacking NSA, at least not beyond his general attack on all of classical mathematics. He was primarily concerned about the pedogogical use of NSA, he may have hated the subject with a passion privately, but publically was always another matter. Unfortunately his book review seems is so venomous, it is difficult not to feel he was attacking the subject. Thenub314 (talk) 03:16, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
Exactly. The Halmos quote is at the "criticism" page as I mentioned. I would be very interested in reading your piece on Bishop. You can send it to me via email if you get a chance. Just let me know if you do, as I don't always check it regularly. Tkuvho (talk) 03:37, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
Note also that in his response Keisler attributed Bishop's reaction to a foundational bias on Bishop's part. You may not want to take Keisler's word for it, but that begs the question why you take Bishop's word for it. Tkuvho (talk) 17:48, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
Don't get me wrong, Bishops attack on Keisler's book was almost surely influenced by his point of view about meaning. He was very clearly against introducing NSA into undergraduate classrooms. What I mean is he always stop short of attacking the field of research. I suspect this was because he was never bother to study it. If I recall correctly by the time Robinson's work appeared he was already writing his book. I don't think there was any sever animosity between Robinson and Bishop personally, at least not that I am aware of. I know for sure Robinson wrote a mostly favorable review of Bishop's book, only finding problems with the fact he didn't give enough credit to the constructivists before him. On the other hand Bishop nearly took a position at Yale, which means (to me) he probably couldn't have felt too negatively about Robinson or his mathematics. But that is of course, my opinion. Thenub314 (talk) 19:36, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
I have to admit that even after examining your comments on Bishop carefully, I am utterly unconvinced by your charitable attitude, which as I already mentioned goes contrary to much sourced material: Halmos, Keisler, etc. However, I am willing to maintain an open mind on this issue (I suppose one always should). Perhaps if I could read your text with all the details I would understand more clearly where you are coming from. Tkuvho (talk) 10:34, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

## Spam

Discussion should be centralised. Having the same discussion in two places is bad. Hence my collapse. Please think about this before undoing it again [10] William M. Connolley (talk) 14:31, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

## Proposed deletion of Larry Guth

The article Larry Guth has been proposed for deletion because under Wikipedia policy, all biographies of living persons created after March 18, 2010, must have at least one source that directly supports material in the article.

If you created the article, please don't take offense. Instead, consider improving the article. For help on inserting references, see Wikipedia:Referencing for beginners or ask at Wikipedia:Help desk. Once you have provided at least one reliable source, you may remove the {{prod blp}} tag. Please do not remove the tag unless the article is sourced. If you cannot provide such a source within ten days, the article may be deleted, but you can request that it be undeleted when you are ready to add one. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 16:28, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't want to end up with a 3RR violation, so I decided it is best to simply discuss this with you here. You had said in one of your edit summaries that it was community consensus to include these links in bibliographies. Can you please give me a link to the discussion, guideline, etc? As far as I know this is borderline OR, we are going out doing the research to find out which books are notable, and reporting our results to highlight to the readers what we think is important. But then we are the ones emphasizing these books are important.

The difficulty is that what we think is important is not supposed to be the issue. Everything has to be referenced, that was something I learned early on. Wikipedia is not meant to contain the truth, it is about verifiable information. Thankfully those two things almost always agree. And my opinion has nothing do with you personally. I spent a couple of days of my own time digging through the library to find a minimal set of books which covered all the formulas in the Fourier transform page. Even when I knew how to do the integrals involved and I could verify the results were correct, readers may not be able to verify without a reference. Thenub314 (talk) 05:21, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi Thenub, I think I agree with the gist of what you wrote, but there is another factor here, namely that you and I both have jobs outside of wiki and don't have unlimited time to devote to this. These pages follow a natural evolution that might sometimes be in tension with some specifics of wiki regulations, but the danger of the prod is that if the page is not high up on my "watched" list, I might forget about it and it will be deleted by a mindless robot. This would result in a loss of time and effort I spent developing these pages. So if I delete the prods please don't misunderstand this as anything other than making sure I beat a mindless bot. Certainly references will have to be provided eventually. Tkuvho (talk) 07:14, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Dear TKUVKO

I did many changes were made on the Hebrew site on the Emanuel page under "education"

They were wiped out within a couple of hours with no explanantion

Hebrew is not my first language. Can you look on the page and the histories under Becky613? I regret that I did not save a full page to forward to you. I am sure I complied with Wiki policies. Many thanks

see עמנואל Wiki page

Becky613 (talk) 15:41, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Dear Tkuvko,

are you still available to evaluate the Wiki page on Immanuel Beis Yaakov? I did not enable my email as I did not want my address all over wiki...would be willing to write in private.

Becky613 (talk) 03:56, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

I have gmail now.

How can I get it to you? Thanks Becky613 (talk) 03:21, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

## Proposed deletion of Metric Structures for Riemannian and Non-Riemannian Spaces

The article Metric Structures for Riemannian and Non-Riemannian Spaces has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. William M. Connolley (talk) 11:06, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

I removed this ridiculous PROD. 11:35, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
There is nothing ridiculous about that prod. I am surprised that you are opposing it, but apparently WP:Notability (books)#Academic and technical books sets an amazingly low standard for notability of academic books. Hans Adler 11:46, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
Hans, this may be the most influential book in differential geometry and metric analysis of the 1980s-1990s. Just its chapter on the concentration of measure (from Milman and Lindenstrauss) has profoundly influenced functional analysis and probability. It's obviously notable. 13:20, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
If you want to explain why, please use the article talk page. Otherwise I'll be AFDing it, which I'd rather not do if you've got a good reason to keep it William M. Connolley (talk) 12:03, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Dear Tkuvko

Hope all is well with you. Write back if you can, even if to say you cannot assist me right now. I have Gmail now. Will enable if you like. Thanks Becky613 (talk) 06:40, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, done according to your instructions Becky613 (talk) 04:08, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

## Thanks and formatting

Hi Tkuvho!

I reformatted your comment, and hope that you don't mind. Please accept my apologies if the formatting was improper.

I also noted that I had mistaken "hand palm" for an insult talk to the hand, which is why I was upset. (Black Kite graciously accepted my apology for my mistake and over-reaction.)

Best regards, 21:25, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

## Fundamental theorem of calculus

Hi,

thanks Brad7777 (talk) 12:03, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

## Speedy deletion nomination of Intellectica

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If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Crusio (talk) 14:15, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

## An AfD you might be interested in

I see you created Category:Articles with separate introductions. You might be interested in the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Basic concepts of quantum mechanics (2nd nomination). RockMagnetist (talk) 00:23, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

## Yuli Rudyak

Hi,

I hate PROD tags, but please add secondary sources before someone else tags the article.

Thanks, Sasha (talk) 05:28, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

OK. What kind of secondary sources do you have in mind? Tkuvho (talk) 12:11, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
well, I understand the problem. I had it e.g. with the article about Jean Ginibre, which was indeed tagged for deletion. There I argued that WP:PROF #2 applies (this is kind of ridiculous, since Ginibre is much more famous than the Langevin prize he received). I think you have to choose which item of WP:PROF you want to defend. If it is #1, with the book as proof, move the MR to the ref-s section (btw, there is also Missing or empty |title= (help)).
Sasha (talk) 15:22, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
My attitude is, we will cross that bridge when we get to it. This author is eminently notable based on mathscinet and google scholar cites. Tkuvho (talk) 17:26, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

## Let's Talk

We are getting nowhere fast. So it might be best about the reverting directly and try to come to some understanding. Since we both have the ability to undo, we could go back and forth like this endlessly. Can we please try to find some new wording that suits us both? I thought we had done that when you said it was OK to take the sentences out entirely and just say there were positive and negative reviews. But, I was most definitely frustrated when you inserted the same exact wording you were using before, and continue to do so.

On the other hand I recognize I have been just as stubborn, so an adage about glass houses and stones comes to mind. But per WP:3RR, both of are libel to get blocked at any time if we continue like this. Let's find a common ground. Perhaps we can add a section on controversy where we discuss Bishop's review and its responses in more detail? Thenub314 (talk) 17:25, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

## Speedy deletion nomination of Semen Samsonovich Kutateladze

If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read the guide to writing your first article.

You may want to consider using the Article Wizard to help you create articles.

A tag has been placed on Semen Samsonovich Kutateladze requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. Best regards, Cind.amuse (Cindy) 19:13, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

## Proposed deletion of Semen Samsonovich Kutateladze

Hello, Tkuvho, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia!

I wanted to let you know that I’m proposing an article that you worked on, Semen Samsonovich Kutateladze, for deletion because I don't think it meets our criteria for inclusion. If you don't want the article deleted:

1. edit the page
2. remove the text that looks like this: {{proposed deletion/dated...}}
3. save the page

It helps to explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page. If you have any questions, feel free to ask on the Help Desk. Thanks again for contributing! Best regards, Cind.amuse (Cindy) 23:05, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

I noticed you added the comment to this page that "Cauchy used infinitesimals to define basic calculus concepts". I find this rather concerning because I know form previous conversations with you that your aware this is a disputed concept.

I am aware of the fact that you think this is a disputed concept. However, I am relying on Cauchy page 34 of his Cours d'Analyse. Tkuvho (talk) 19:55, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I am not saying the page should say that he did not use infinitesimals, which would also be disputed. Instead I wanted to point edits like this that add one side of POV in a debate, and neglect to mention the existence of the other POV, are not good. I can understand your objections to the sentence as it was written before, but letting the pendulum swing completely to the other side is not a good solution.

I am also a bit concerned about edits like this. Why are you taking out sourced material from a more or less standard textbook?

Because, as I explained in my edit summary, Boyer is in error here. No point compounding his error by perpetuating it. Tkuvho (talk) 19:56, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Finally I had a question about this. I checked the book out of the library and I am reading it now (it is a lovely book btw), but as far as I can see he does disagrees with Grabiner about how rigorous Cauchy was (he points out his many mistakes), but doesn't anywhere seem to dispute that Cauchy's work was a precursor to Weierstrass's. Do you have a more specific page number or section you could point to. Thenub314 (talk) 17:05, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

See bottom of page 480. Schubring made his share of silly mistakes, but this point he got right. Tkuvho (talk) 20:00, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

• If it was just me then I could understand but you know for example Grabiner; Boyer, etc write that he defined the basic concepts of calculus in terms of limits and not infinitesimals. They are not the only two, so please don't make this about my opinion, which as far as I know I have never directly expressed in writing.
• Why do you say he is in error? I usually try to avoid quoting policy... but: "Editors may not add their own views to articles simply because they believe them to be correct, and may not remove sources' views from articles simply because they disagree with them." So if there is a reason to believe this is in error, we can turn to other sources, but I haven't seen any particular reason to believe that he is.
• Reading the bottom of 480, I see nothing about Grabiner or Weierstrass or anything that really supports the current wording. Perhaps we could agree to say that Schubring disagrees with Grabiner about how rigorous Cauchy's calculus was? Thenub314 (talk) 01:43, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

## missed the point

Hi N, You seem to have missed the point of my comment. Both of us have been around wiki long enough to know that personal opinions carry little weight here. Rather, modern historians who are up to date on the recent literature consider Boyer to be out of date, and moreover some of his errors have been documented in the literature. Tkuvho (talk) 12:15, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

The point about Schubring's comment is that Cauchy's approach is linked to the approach of the 18th century. I referred you to his summary at the end, but throughout the article he makes comments about Cauchy's notion of limit that justify his final conclusion. He is very sceptical about viewing Cauchy as a proto-Weierstrass. Tkuvho (talk) 12:17, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
The specific claim of Boyer's that you included and I deleted was that "cauchy based infinitesimals on limits". Did you see anybody else saying this? Tkuvho (talk) 12:18, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Reply in reverse order: As it turns out several books state Cauchy based infinitesimals on limits. For example, Schubring, V. Katz or Grabiner. I haven't tried to make an exhaustive list but it seems a pretty common statement on the subject.

Saying that he is linked to the 18th century is doesn't mean he feels that Cauchy's approach is proto-Weierstrass. He specifically seems concerned with that hero worship when it comes to Cauchy, and dismisses the idea that Cauchy's mathematics was rigorous. But he is quite clear that Cauchy based calculus in limits, included infinitesimals because he was under pressure to, and he hasn't yet made any claims that Cauchy did not view limits in terms of inequalities*. But he points out that in various ways, such as his view of a function, he was more like the mathematicians that came before him then those that came after. But none of this says his work wasn't a precursor to that of Weierstrass. * At least I should say not yet, as I haven't finished reading.

You'll forgive me if I do not take your word on what modern historians believe. I can believe that there are some points in his book that are disagreed with by modern historians, and in this case they will generally write papers on the subject and those will be the type of thing we can cite. As his statements about limits in Cauchy are often repeated, it seems unlikely he is viewed as being incorrect on this subject. Thenub314 (talk) 17:04, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

As you point out, Schubring acknowledges that Cauchy did not base limits on real inequalities. Grabiner states precisely the opposite. This is the basis of her claim that Cauchy anticipated epsilontics. This is precisely the point Grabiner and Schubring diagree about. What does Victor Katz say exactly about basing infinitesimals on limits? Tkuvho (talk) 17:11, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
Seeing that you are a better mathematician than Boyer, perhaps I can convince you that if Cauchy defined both infinitesimals and limits in terms of variable quantities, it would be a non-sequitur to assume a kind of commutativity and declare that he based infinitesimals on limits. the limit of a variable quantity is zero if the variable quantity becomes an infinitesimal. This is not defining infinitesimals in terms of limits, but defining limits in terms of variable quantities. Tkuvho (talk) 17:15, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
I hasten to add that this is not my personal opinion but rather material that can be sourced. Tkuvho (talk) 17:15, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

I think you misread what I wrote, if he does state that Cauchy did not base limits on inequalities, I haven't found it. For example, Katz says in his discussion on limits in Cauchy that he defined an infinitely small quantity in terms of limits. He further repeats it again in his discussion of Cauchy's definition of continuity. Pages 708-710 in the edition I am looking at. Finally, I suppose I should be flattered you see me as a better mathematician of than Boyer, but the real question is am I a better historian. I take it when you write "the limit of a variable quantity is zero if the variable quantity becomes an infinitesimal" your providing your translation of Cauchy? As I understand from Schubring, 0 was something of a special case, and had its own definition. Thenub314 (talk) 19:27, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

## 3RR at (ε, δ)-definition of limit

We are past 3RR here, I plan to mention this at the appropriate noticeboard. Thenub314 (talk) 17:12, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

I see clearly now that you are a pure rather than applied mathematician, otherwise how does one account for the fact that you can't count to 3 ;) I am not past 3RR. Tkuvho (talk) 17:16, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
Tkuvho, you've been reported at WP:AN3#User:Tkuvho reported by User:Thenub314 (Result: ). You may respond there if you wish. EdJohnston (talk) 18:06, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
Whether or not you've violated the three-revert rule, please note that if you continue to edit war, you can still be blocked for edit warring. Several editors on the page in question appear to have disagreed with your edits. I strongly suggest that you hold off on reverting for the near future and take your disagreement to the article's talk page. --slakrtalk / 21:53, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
I object to such belligerent "warnings" issued before I had a chance to state my position. You acted upon erroneous information provided by Thenub314, as I detailed at the 3RR page. Tkuvho (talk) 12:40, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I think that slakr gave a pretty much pro forma response to the complaint. It's standard practice, when someone is on the edge of violating 3RR, for an admin to ask them to stop. I don't think he intended to be belligerent, and I would guess that he intended to just leave a note and hope that the situation would resolve itself without any further admin involvement. In this case I can see 3 reverts on Dec. 14, so you were indeed right on the edge of violating the 3RR rule. In general I think that admins who respond to the AN3 noticeboard are going to be somewhat legalistic, because they do not want to get into the content issues. They will just look for signs of edit warring. The viewpoint is that the editors have to work out the content issues between themselves. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:37, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

There is a heavy-handed comment by EdJohnston below. I would appreciate a comment. Tkuvho (talk) 20:55, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
The editor who placed the 3RR report and I were removing or replacing the material under dispute at the same rate. I deleted it 4 times in a 48 hour period, and he similarly restored it 4 times over a 48 hour period, as well. The warning should have been issued to both of us if that's what Sklar wanted to do. I took the matter to the talk page, and the other editor did not respond. Tkuvho (talk) 13:48, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
If it is of any consolation, I will consider myself warned as well. Thenub314 (talk) 18:05, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
As I already mentioned, people who run out of arguments resort to clubs or johnsons. Tkuvho (talk) 20:57, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

## Email

It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{YGM}} template.

14:33, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

## Infinitesimal

Your latest edits there seem to have some peacocky aspects. For exaple "pioneering" and "harbinger". Furthermore, regardless of relevance, "adequality" shouldn't be in the lead without being in the text. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:03, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I removed the peacocks. Adequality is mentioned in the historical section. I can elaborate further if necessary. Tkuvho (talk) 20:26, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

## Continued edit warring on math articles

Please see the recent update to WP:AN3#User:Tkuvho reported by User:Thenub314 (Result: warned). You are continuing to make reverts with no evidence that any other editors support your changes. To me, this would seem to justify a 24-hour block per the original complaint. To avoid sanctions, I recommend that you agree for the next 30 days to seek consensus for any controversial changes to math articles. In particular, you must not do any reverts to restore your own material after someone else has removed it. You are welcome to enter discussions about the value of your material. EdJohnston (talk) 17:26, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

## Proposed deletion of Alexandre Borovik

The article Alexandre Borovik has been proposed for deletion because, under Wikipedia policy, all newly created biographies of living persons must have at least one reference to a reliable source that directly supports material in the article.

If you created the article, please don't be offended. Instead, consider improving the article. For help on inserting references, see Referencing for beginners, or ask at the help desk. Once you have provided at least one reliable source, you may remove the {{prod blp}} tag. Please do not remove the tag unless the article is sourced. If you cannot provide such a source within ten days, the article may be deleted, but you can request that it be undeleted when you are ready to add one. Night of the Big Wind talk 15:29, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

He is one of the coauthors with Gelfand of Coxeter Matroids. He is obviously notable. 16:14, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Thanks, I added it in. Tkuvho (talk) 17:02, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

## A barnstar for you!

 The Brilliant Idea Barnstar With this edit you just found a much better way to do what I tried to achieve here. Congratulations. Diego (talk) 13:42, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I am very touched. This is my very first barnstar. You made my day :) Having said this, I would not be surprised if the change is reverted. It's not something to get into an edit armed conflict over :) Tkuvho (talk) 13:44, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Wikilove is a great thing :-) And the first star has a special touch.
Even if the edit is reverted, it has enough merit to have further discussion about it at the talk page. Maybe we can work it into something that expresses the same idea in a form that nobody has problems with. Diego (talk) 13:51, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

## JMM?

I was planning to be at the JMM this year, if you were as well... how about a coffee on me. I figure after all the headache's I have probably caused you, it is the least I could do. Thenub314 (talk) 01:46, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

What's JMM?? Tkuvho (talk) 12:01, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
The "Joint Mathematics Meetings", usually just called the 'joint meetings'. Website: here Thenub314 (talk) 15:37, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

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## Nigel Cutland

Two points concerning the new article about Nigel Cutland:

• The reason that the Loeb spaces link didn't work is simply that you linked to the plural. I changed it, to link to the singular, and also created a redirect page from the plural to the singular.
• There's no reason to capitalize the initial n in non-standard analysis.

Michael Hardy (talk) 18:09, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. As far as the plurals are concerned, would it be appropriate to have a macro systematically identify all plurals and direct them to the singulars, instead of doing it in a piecemeal fashion for every page? Tkuvho (talk) 08:59, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

## Page Daniel Lazard proposed for speedy deletion

Dear Tkuvho,

Following your red linking of my name in Algebraic geometry (thanks for that), I have remarked that I was cited several times in Wikipedia and that there was several ambiguities between me and Michel Lazard. Thus I have disambiguated by adding the given name and a red link everywhere where it is needed. Faced to a number of red links, I have created my page. It is proposed for speedy deletion. I have contested this, expanding above reasons.

Could you support my contestation?

Thanks D.Lazard (talk) 18:56, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

The "speedy deletion" thing is pretty standard. Think of it as a way of encouraging editors to improve the page and don't take it to heart :) Tkuvho (talk) 20:36, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

## Notice of discussion at the Administrators' Noticeboard

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Infinitesimal knowledge. Thank you. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 05:07, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

## Proposed deletion of Philip Ehrlich

The article Philip Ehrlich has been proposed for deletion because, under Wikipedia policy, all newly created biographies of living persons must have at least one reference to a reliable source that directly supports material in the article.

If you created the article, please don't be offended. Instead, consider improving the article. For help on inserting references, see Referencing for beginners, or ask at the help desk. Once you have provided at least one reliable source, you may remove the {{prod blp}} tag. Please do not remove the tag unless the article is sourced. If you cannot provide such a source within ten days, the article may be deleted, but you can request that it be undeleted when you are ready to add one. Gsingh (talk) 07:11, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

The source is already in the article. Tkuvho (talk) 10:02, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Hi Tkuvho! It still surprises me to see articles of people I know personally (although probabilistically maybe this shouldn't be surprising). I just wanted to ask if you are/were in that region now. Cheers Rschwieb (talk) 13:33, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for your interest. Never been to Ohio. Think of adding material to the article. Are you aware of any journals Philip might be editor of? Tkuvho (talk) 14:38, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
He says he's currently not acting as editor for any journals. Rschwieb (talk) 21:04, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. You can enable your wiki email if you like. Tkuvho (talk) 12:28, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

## Bob Brooks

Hi Tkuvho,

it is great that you created a page about Brooks, incidentally, recently I thought about doing it myself. I have added a ref to Buser's paper. As this is closer to your specialty, perhaps you could condense some of it into a paragraph about his work? (I am quite familiar with his late works on spectral theory of graphs, but all the rest too far from me to write anything competent).

Best regards, Sasha (talk) 05:22, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I was surprised not to find him mentioned on the isospectral problem page. Tkuvho (talk) 12:47, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Actually, I see that he is. But he is not mentioned at Hearing the shape of a drum. Tkuvho (talk) 12:52, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
it would be nice to write something about his work in the article. Citation counters are OK for fighting deletionists, but not very interesting to readers. Could you please add a few sentences about his work on bounded cohomology? (I am hardly able to do this competently). Sasha (talk) 16:05, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

## Speedy deletion nomination of Leif Arkeryd

If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read the guide to writing your first article.

You may want to consider using the Article Wizard to help you create articles.

A tag has been placed on Leif Arkeryd requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. Callanecc (talk) 16:46, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

## Categories for discussion nomination of Category:Authors of books on hyperreals

Category:Authors of books on hyperreals, which you created, has been nominated for discussion. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Pichpich (talk) 19:54, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

## Nomination of Smooth completion for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Smooth completion is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Smooth completion until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. Wikishagnik (talk) 17:32, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

According to your latest comment, your current position seems to be keep but it is not entirely transparent. Could you clarify this at the AfD page? Tkuvho (talk) 18:40, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

## Proposed deletion of Robert M. Anderson (economist)

The article Robert M. Anderson (economist) has been proposed for deletion because, under Wikipedia policy, all newly created biographies of living persons must have at least one reference to a reliable source that directly supports material in the article.

If you created the article, please don't be offended. Instead, consider improving the article. For help on inserting references, see Referencing for beginners, or ask at the help desk. Once you have provided at least one reliable source, you may remove the {{prod blp}} tag. Please do not remove the tag unless the article is sourced. If you cannot provide such a source within ten days, the article may be deleted, but you can request that it be undeleted when you are ready to add one. 10:34, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

## Speedy deletion nomination of Robert M. Anderson (economist)

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A tag has been placed on Robert M. Anderson (economist) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person, organization (band, club, company, etc.) or web content, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. Go Phightins! (talk) 03:12, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Tkuvho. Back in November, you got a PROD notification about Semen Samsonovich Kutateladze, and it was during one of the template testing project's experiments. If you could go here and leave us some feedback about what you think about the new version of the template we tested, that would be very useful. (You can also email me at swallingwikimedia.org if you want.) Thanks! Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 22:22, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

## Speedy deletion nomination of Jean-Claude Sikorav

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A tag has been placed on Jean-Claude Sikorav requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think that the page was nominated in error, contest the nomination by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion" in the speedy deletion tag. Doing so will take you to the talk page where you can explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but do not hesitate to add information that is consistent with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. - Happysailor (Talk) 14:02, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

## Removing Speedy at Jean-Claude Sikorav

Hi Tkuvho, you recently removed a deletion tag from Jean-Claude Sikorav. Because Wikipedia policy does not allow the creator of the page to remove speedy deletion tags, an automated program has replaced the tag. Although the deletion proposal may be incorrect, removing the tag is not the correct way for you to contest the deletion, even if you are more experienced than the nominator. Instead, please use the talk page to explain why the page should not be deleted. Remember to be patient, there is no harm in waiting for another experienced user to review the deletion and judge what the right course of action is. As you are involved, and therefore potentially biased, you should refrain from doing this yourself. Thank you, - SDPatrolBot (talk) 14:04, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I see that you posted messages to several different administrators' talk pages, asking for restoration of Jean-Claude Sikorav. This is a fairly clear example of admin shopping. JamesBWatson (talk) 12:52, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

How much is that administrator in the window? ;p 13:12, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
In this case, the outcome was somewhat clear from the beginning, because if an established editor wants to get back the text that they wrote, we will give it to them. I viewed the posts on different administrators' pages as mostly an effort to see who was active at the time and could get the job done, not as a question of whether anyone would be willing to do it. I would view it as extremely rude to refuse to restore the page if there is a plausible argument that the article might be kept at AFD. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:50, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. While we are on the subject, when was the policy instituted that an editor who created a page cannot delete the "speedy deletion" tag himself? It seems to be a new policy. In this case, this particular policy created a lot of unnecessary time expenditure for everybody involved. Shouldn't experienced editors be able to remove the tag? Tkuvho (talk) 14:01, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
It has always been policy, but the idea was that it was supposed to stop new editors from removing tags from pages that clearly should be deleted. I view it as somewhat beyond the pale that there is now a bot that forces the rule on experienced editors (you have over 6,000 edits) for whom such rules were never meant to apply. And, in this case, because you had left a comment on the talk page before the article was deleted, I also find it unfortunate that the page was deleted at all, when starting an AFD would have been just as easy but far more collegial. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:15, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
To say it should not apply to experienced editors is entirely incorrect. Experienced editors can be given permission that allows any article they create to skip the new articles tag. However, in order to maintain proper checks and balances, the CSD process must remain intact. Even experienced editors can still create non-conforming articles, and if we bypass the CSD rules, you can end up with another round of serial copyviolators, etc (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 14:27, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification. Can you please specify the procedure whereby experienced editors can be given permission to bypass the new articles tag? Tkuvho (talk) 14:29, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
See the Autopatrolled right (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 15:16, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
I doubt there is one, and I have never heard of it. The point is that other editors are expected not to enforce the requirement. Of course the people doing new page patrol do not have time to look up the edit count for the creator of each page - how could they? - but if they notice that a tag has been removed then they should as a matter of practice and courtesy look up the editor and see what sort of response is merited before the tag it again. The thing that has happened, apparently, is that a bot was created, and the bot (and/or its creator) is not aware of these social norms. I suppose it isn't uncommon that increased efficiency comes at a cost of higher bureaucracy and a decreased amount of humanity. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:42, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

I notice that WP:CSD states that "Contributors sometimes create pages over several edits, so administrators should avoid deleting a page that appears incomplete too soon after its creation". What is your interpretation of this? Tkuvho (talk) 14:34, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
New page patrollers routinely ignore that, because they do not have time to come back to the page later, and it might not even appear on their list again once they have looked at it once. That sort of language from the policy is probably intended to discourage them from doing it, but there is a lot of language in policy documents that is not really in force, it's just added because someone wishes it was in force. The historical situation is that new page patrollers just tag new pages, and then regular editors undo the tags if the tagging was a mistake. We can avoid this problem by trying to make the assertion of notability more prominent on a new page, to help prevent it from being tagged in the first place. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:42, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Before clicking "submit" on any new page, the creator should verify a) that the notability is clear to everybody, and that there are a minimum of 2 reliable sources quote. If you can't do this from the start, then create a userspace draft - it's the easiest way. Once your new article is created, make sure you immediately edit its talkpage to include at least one project. I don't do new page patrol very often, and I don't typically perform CSD patrol...this specific article came to my attention in another manner (I forget how), but I do patrol the requests for undeletion, which primarily handles recently CSD'd and PROD'd articles. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 15:16, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
I completely agree that it is a good idea to include sources on newly created pages. On the other hand, of course there is no actual requirement that new pages must have any sources listed, this is just best practice. The reason I brought up new page patrol is that the person who tagged the article originally appeared to be doing that (I looked at their contribs before undeleting the article, and the page was tagged 2 minutes after creation). The fact that the page was tagged as part of new page patrol was a factor I took into account when undeleting it. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:30, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea where CBM gets the idea that "don't remove a speedy deletion tag from an article you created" is supposed to apply only to new editors, nor where he/she gets the idea that "other editors are expected not to enforce the requirement" is a "social norm". I have never before come across any such suggestion, nor can I think of any good reason why it should be the case. As far as I am aware, the idea is that the creator of an article has a conflict of interest, and the validity of a speedy deletion nomination should be given an independent assessment by a third party. If the nomination is unambiguously inappropriate then any administrator in their right mind will decline it, so little is lost by not letting the author of the article remove the tag. If, on the other hand, the case is not so clear and unambiguous, then letting the author of an article remove the tag is unhelpful. I have racked my brain, and I cannot think of any reason why an author of, for example, spam, vandalism, an attack page, etc etc, should be immune to speedy deletion just because they have been editing for a while. JamesBWatson (talk) 13:28, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. I see your point. One could add that avoiding unnecessary "speedy deletions" could save time to several editors, as in the case in question. Tkuvho (talk) 13:40, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
@JamesBWatson: Assuming good faith, an editor who has been editing for a while is very unlikely to have created "spam, vandalism, an attack page, etc etc", and any appearance of such is likely to be a mistake. So the established editor should have the ability to explain their case at AFD. This is a completely standard courtesy that I would hope someone would give me, just part of AGF, and so it is a courtesy I would extend to any other established editor. On the other hand, if an established editor has created a vandalism or attack page, that is a real problem, and just deleting the page and forgetting about it is not a good long-term resolution. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:32, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

## Autopatrolled

I don't think that the "autopatrolled" right is the way to go here. On one hand, it is only intended for people who create lots of articles -- hundreds or more, on a regular basis. For people who infrequently create new articles, it isn't needed. At the same time, the right will not shield anyone from all ways of monitoring new pages, only from Special:Newpages. Other editors may notice the page appear in other ways and tag it if they think it has problems.

In general, the way to avoid the problem you ran into is to go beyond the minimum requirements when creating new pages, making it blatantly obvious that the topic is notable. In this case, the page was created with a very marginal appearance of notability, and it is a page about a living person, which will bring it under even more scrutiny. Even though I undeleted it, I think it still does not look like a safe bet if it goes to AFD. The best practice is to make the article as AFD proof as possible right when you create it, perhaps using a sandbox for early drafts. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:37, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

The guidelines there indicate that one needs 50 articles (I created 52 apparently). Tkuvho (talk) 15:56, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
I see that, but my understanding of the purpose of the thing is that it is intended for people who create hundreds or thousands of pages at a time, not for people who happen to create pages occasionally. But maybe someone else will respond to the request, I will just leave it alone. — Carl (CBM · talk) 16:19, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
NO problem. Thanks for your help. Tkuvho (talk) 16:28, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

## +rollback +autopatrol

Added on request -- Samir 02:04, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Would like to add that I agree with User:CBM's sentiments above also regarding suggestions on creating new pages -- Samir 02:08, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Thanks very much. Tkuvho (talk) 12:31, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

## Einstein quote

Tkuvho see article talk Drift chambers (talk) 18:51, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

## Expander graph

If the result is not published it should be swiftly removed regardless of correctness. Tkuvho (talk) 08:52, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much, Tkuvho. That's exactly my point.
Would you mind saying that on Talk:Expander graph#"Original research" template too?
(and I am not even sure that correctness is guaranteed) --MathsPoetry (talk) 12:16, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
Let's see if David responds first. Ideally I would want to look into the mathematics in more detail which I don't have time to do at the moment. Tkuvho (talk) 12:22, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
OK. --MathsPoetry (talk) 12:27, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

## Response to your 1st April

Hi Tkuvho

You have been quiet recently, are you any happier with the way it is now?

I am a patient sort of person so I will just keep plugging away at it. Certainly professional mathematicians (I am not one but I use mathematics on a daily basis) have "just gotten used to it" as someone once said and have a bad habit of just trotting something out and being very surprised when it isn't instantly understood.

Part of this "getting used to it" is a kind of brainwashing effect that results in a Platonist way of thinking but nowadays most will not readily admit to it because the balance of the arguments is against Platonism and has been for a while now. For myself, I don't believe that "root2" is out there somewhere, it is simply an artifact of the world that we appear to live in.

If, as well as being a professional mathematician, you are also a logician or set theorist, then that is double trouble as these persons frequently confuse metamathematics (math about math) with doing mathematics.

It would not surprise me if there were more difficulties as constructivists are not well understood by classical mathematicians (they think they are intuitionists).

Anyway, at least I have managed to sort out the rule business in a reasonable way and I have also managed to get the definition aspect at least partly sorted out so there is some progress.

(PS I hope I have done this correctly, I have not "talked" with anyone before) Selfstudier (talk) 17:46, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

The lede of function (mathematics) could be dumbed down considerably, with considerable benefit for the reader. Because of the tendencies we discussed, this may be difficult to achieve. This is however not impossible. For example, the article smooth completion I recently created based on edits by expert editors elsewhere, starts with a simplest meaningful example of the notion in the lede. Only on the body of the article does one get more general definitions. Such a structure is preferable to what is going on at function (mathematics). As an alternative, one could write a more historically-oriented lede, starting with Leibniz's notion of function in the context of a plane curve, as a rule assigning a "y" to an "x". Then one could skip to Dirichlet and his arbitrary relations satisfying the "vertical line" test. Then one could say something about the famous "triplets" but not before. If you get a couple of editors interested in this sort of direction, we could take it from there. Tkuvho (talk) 12:33, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
I take your point, the problem is that the lead has a largely discredited definition (it's a hangover from the NewMath era) as it's first sentence, the universities have been complaining for years about the fact that students arrive there without any proper knowledge of domain and codomain for the simple reason most math teachers were taught the discredited version and so that is what they then teach the new students and on it goes.
f:X arrow Y IS the triple!!! (just written differently). I don't think that it is particularly hard to understand myself and approaching the idea of function in this way is now considered to be a much better way of teaching it in the sense that the students find it more meaningful and easier to absorb (and the universities don't have to waste a semester reteaching).
Leaving aside the crappy first sentence, the lead paragraph now reads something like a schoolboy textbook and frankly, if that is the intention, then you might as well scrap about 75% of the rest of the article, including nearly all the history(Maybe I will go over to Simple Wikipedia and write it up properly:-)
I agree with your idea of coming at it completely differently ie start wityh the history. Unfortunately, I don't think that idea would fly because of the way the policies are set up, you have to start with "in mathematics, a (whatever) is...." which automatically results in a definition. Selfstudier (talk) 13:45, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

## Toulouse shootings

Hi Tkuvho. I've (kind-of) replied to your note on Talk:2012 Midi-Pyrénées shootings in the section below yours. Your input would be most appreciated. Regards, matt (talk) 14:59, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

The name of this section seems to confirm the preferability of the name I suggested :) Tkuvho (talk) 15:00, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Gawd, I'm getting edit conflicts everywhere at the moment! I think you must have replied on the article talk just as I was writing the above message. Thanks for your input, let's hope that other editors join in too. In terms of the name of this section, I named it that so I didn't have to monkey around getting the accents correct! matt (talk) 15:02, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
I imagine that's a good reason to keep "Toulouse" in the title: a reader interested in the events will plausibly type in "toulouse attacks". Tkuvho (talk) 15:04, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
This issue has been revisited at Talk:2012 Midi-Pyrénées shootings and there is also a dispute resolution underway regarding other longstanding concerns.
Best Wishes Ankh.Morpork 11:38, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

## Talkback

Hello, Tkuvho. You have new messages at AnkhMorpork's talk page.
Message added 15:08, 3 April 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Probability dictates that there will always be a few rotten apples in the barrel
Best Wishes Ankh.Morpork 15:08, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

An interesting take on Mohammed Merah. Its amazing how many "psychologically disturbed" people have gravitated towards a particular brand of religion.
Best Wishes Ankh.Morpork 22:31, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
AnkhMorpork: in case someone hasn't told you this already, wikipedia talk pages are for improving the encyclopedia, not for expressing personal opinions on a subject or an editor.
It is fairly obvious which religion you mean by "a particular brand of religion", and given you've previously attacked my being a Muslim, it's pretty offensive.VR talk 23:56, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
By brand, I meant of a radical nature. I have never attacked you because of your religion nor will I ever do so; I suggested there may be a COI because of the overlap in content and your personal affiliations. In this instance, it happened to be your religion. I find you following me here and criticising my use of a Talk page to possibly infringe wp:hound.

## Incoherence?

It was this sense of "incoherence" that you intended in this edit], I presume? If so, could you wikilink it, please, and maybe even rephrase just a bit to make the intended meaning clear to us amateurs? If it was the vernacular sense you intended then, well, sir, I must ask whether duels are still permitted in your home country? ;-) Russell's a favourite of mine, you see. Cheers,  – OhioStandard (talk) 15:21, 2 May 2012 (UTC)    No talkback needed; temporarily watchlisted.

Should this be continued at Talk:Principles of Mathematics? Tkuvho (talk) 07:05, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

## Toulouse and Montauban shootings

This is an automated message from MadmanBot. I have performed a search with the contents of Toulouse and Montauban shootings, and it appears to be very similar to another Wikipedia page: 2012 Midi-Pyrénées shootings. It is possible that you have accidentally duplicated contents, or made an error while creating the page— you might want to look at the pages and see if that is the case. If you are intentionally trying to rename an article, please see Help:Moving a page for instructions on how to do this without copying and pasting. If you are trying to move or copy content from one article to a different one, please see Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia and be sure you have acknowledged the duplication of material in an edit summary to preserve attribution history.

It is possible that the bot is confused and found similarity where none actually exists. If that is the case, you can remove the tag from the article. MadmanBot (talk) 17:28, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

## Almost an entire month

[11], but I did see it. Unique Ubiquitous (talk) 02:30, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

## Invitation to comment at Monty Hall problem RfC

You are invited to comment on the following RfC:

Talk:Monty Hall problem#Conditional or Simple solutions for the Monty Hall problem?

--Guy Macon (talk) 22:16, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

## Incorrect edit

RE: your edit with the comment (the very first source specifically mentions Hamas, contrary to WLRoss's edit summary).

The "very first source" says...Quote: "The rocket attacks by Hamas and other factions in Gaza" which is one of only three of the 11 references to directly mention Hamas in regards to the rockets per my edit comment There are 11 sources. None specifically blame Hamas. Only 3 say "Hamas and other groups". The other 8 say "Palestinian" or "militants".) Singling out Hamas is POV cherrypicking, they have never been a significant source of the rocket attacks let alone solely responsible. Albeit they are responsible for the majority, neither the Brigades nor Islamic Jihad are solely responsible either so an encompassing term must be used. Please revert your edit. Wayne (talk) 15:01, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

You seem to have misunderstood my point. My point was that describing indiscriminate rocket attacks as "palestinian" incorrectly identifies the gaza population with the leadership of terrorist groups intent no pursuing such attacks. Therefore terms more specific than "palestinian" should be used. Most of the attacks have been perpetrated by Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Therefore they should be blamed for them, rather than the gaza population. Tkuvho (talk) 15:14, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
How is naming a single organisation NPOV when the sources are, without exception, talking about rockets fired by all parties? The vast majority of the attacks are by the al-Qassam Brigades and Islamic Jihad, not Hamas. You will not find a single reader whose main language is English that would assume that the term "Palestinian" would include civilians as the context is clear. Wayne (talk) 17:27, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for mentioning the parties responsible for the indiscriminate firing of rockets at civilians. Note that Hamas grabbed control of this territory illegally and is currently in control of the areas from which the firing took place (and furthermore went to great lengths to express approval of such firings). I think we should avoid blanket statements concerning "palestinians" when it comes to terrorist activities. Such blanket statements are profoundly demeaning to the gaza population which currently finds itself under Hamas control. I responded to dditional misguided assertions of yours at the talk page of the article in question, and suggest we continue the discussion there. Tkuvho (talk) 17:56, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

## Talkback

Hello, Tkuvho. You have new messages at AnkhMorpork's talk page.
Message added 17:31, 24 December 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Ankh.Morpork 17:31, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

## Infinitesimal‎

Oh my, excellent indeed ツ. An actual mathematics expert in the house. I've been forlornly making my way through the category and some of these articles seem to be gathering dust. I discovered these because of what is considered an 'edit test' picked up this month by 28bot on the article Mathematical principles of reinforcement. I knew nothing to do except tweak the format of the markup to fool the bot into clearing its log and I added an expert needed tag, since amazingly it did not have one. My gratitude for clearing a tag; carry on! Fylbecatulous talk 16:50, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

## 1RR

That's technically 2 reverts at Operation Pillar of Defense‎‎. nableezy - 17:41, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. I was not aware of the clause "The 3RR says an editor must not perform more than three reverts, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material." (the same would apply to the 1RR rule). Since the rules specify that the prohibition applies even if different material is involved, I will self-revert my revert. Tkuvho (talk) 17:55, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Rubbish, consecutive edits only count as one. The only way to break 1R is to revert or remove content after another editor has edited the article. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:02, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for this. Hmm, the instructions at WP:1RR seem ambiguous. How does one ascertain what the policy is exactly? Tkuvho (talk) 18:05, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
...And certainly feel free to undo my latest edit. Tkuvho (talk) 18:18, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. Tkuvho (talk) 18:20, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Haha I looked again, you would have broken 1R as there were edits by other guys between yours. Good job you did't listen to me Darkness Shines (talk) 18:28, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

## ARBPIA / Discretionary Sanctions warning

(this is being made equally to Nableezy, Baseball Bugs, and Tkuvho)

Recent comments on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, which you participated in, degenerated into mutually combative personal attacks among at least the three of you. Several way nastyness over several days, including noticeboard (ANI, etc) arguments has enused.

This is not acceptable behavior. All of you are editors with long experiences here and in good standing; usually you behave much better.

This message is a formal warning that the Discrectionary Sanctions (formerly ARBPIA sanctions) are in force for this topic area and if the disruption continues, further sanctions, including temporary topic or article bans or blocks per policy may be used to separate the combatants.

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:15, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

## ANI

Hello. There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:40, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for having corrected my poor English.

You have also restored, with reference, the sentence about the interpretation of Fermat's method in terms of non-standard analysis. This interpretation is a controversial opinion that seems to have not been accepted by anyone else than its authors. Therefore I have moved it in Section Scholarly controversy and I have modified the sentence to clarify that it is an opinion and not a fact. D.Lazard (talk) 10:35, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

John Stillwell's views go in the same direction. I made a note of that in the article. Tkuvho (talk) 14:32, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

## Thompson Article

I have posted a response to you on my talk site. Your suggestion that mention of Thompson's article is only appropriate to logic chat site is misconceived. It was published over a year ago in a peer reviewed journal. Its publication means not that it is correct but is worthy of notice. Fernandodelucia (talk)Fernando —Preceding undated comment added 08:11, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

There are discussion venues of a general mathematical character (not limited to logic) which would be more appropriate for discussing Thompson's article than wiki. Keep me posted if you start a discussion there. Tkuvho (talk) 08:21, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Dear Tkuvho The criteria for Wikipedia may not be unworkable but your interpretation of them may be. Please tell me what you rely on here. I note you have not said whether you are going to respond to the rest of my post or not. It must be very significant that you have not said whether you have perused the article referred to or intend to It would of course be very relevant if you had or decided to do so. It seems to me that your assumed right to editing allows you or others to keep material out on a whim forever. Where is it laid down that references in Google Scholar are a determining criterion or is this just something you think is appropriate? Regards Fernandodelucia (talk)Fernando —Preceding undated comment added 08:59, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I responded at your talk. Try to use four twiddles: ~ ~ ~ ~ (without the spaces in between) when you sign your posts. Tkuvho (talk) 09:06, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Dear Tkuvho

You have ignored most of what I said.

I don't regard the approach of the gang of deleters as being calm but maybe you weren't part of that. If they had offered calm justifications for their actions it may have strengthened their case

As its stands at the moment:

There is a category in the section on Godel's Theorems called criticisms.

The Thompson article is a criticism.

It is in a peer reviewed journal which is relatively new and may not be in everyone's library. Its been published for well over a year.

Discussions of Godel's theorems may be not just in mathematical journals but in philosophical journals.

It is nevertheless freely available for the deleting editors to read and develop a coherent justification for deletion. Not one of them attempted this.

I'll give it another week or so but none of deleters seem to have read it or claim that its claims are clearly untenable.

You have not come up with any Wikipedia rules which require or strongly support its deletion.

Most of all the Godel's Theorems are probably the most important in all of the Foundations of Mathematics and Philosophical Logic. So any criticisms which may have some validity are important even if to orthodoxy they must seem to be very unlikely to be right.

After a year it is appropriate that it be noticed but of course they must remain extremely controversial and it should not be suggested that they are otherwise and it has not been.

There is nothing amiss with Wikipedia readers being made aware of some claims which can only be seen as controversial in a criticisms section.

And the strong arguments for the deleters are ....?

In the absence of a response to the above I must assume you do not have or wish to make any.

Regards

Dear Tkuvho

You have pointed out that Wikipedia is not a discussion forum. Fine.

All the deleted entry did was noted in the briefest possible way the existence of a possibly important criticism in a criticisms section.

Where's the discussion you apparently criticise it for? Fernandodelucia (talk)Fernando —Preceding undated comment added 09:57, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Fernandodelucia (talk)Fernando —Preceding undated comment added 09:45, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

## Sylvanus P. Thompson

A tag has been placed on Sylvanus P. Thompson, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a redirect to a nonexistent page, or a redirect loop.

If you can fix this redirect to point to an existing Wikipedia page, please do so and remove the speedy deletion tag. However, please do not remove the speedy deletion tag unless you also fix the redirect. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. - Camyoung54 talk 02:26, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I restored the revisions at the same time as you recreated the page. It seems the original redirect pointed back to itself rather than Silvanus P. Thompson which explains its speedy.--Salix (talk): 10:09, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! Tkuvho (talk) 11:29, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

## Invitation to take a short survey about communication and efficiency of WikiProjects for my research

Hi Tkuvho, I'm working on a project to study the running of WikiProject and possible performance measures for it. I learn from WikiProject Mathematics talk page that you are an active member of the project. I would like to invite you to take a short survey for my study. If you are available to take our survey, could you please reply an email to me? I'm new to Wikipedia, I can't send too many emails to other editors due to anti-spam measure. Thank you very much for your time. Xiangju (talk) 15:51, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

## Hello! There is a DR/N request you may have interest in.

This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help find a resolution. Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you! -- Nbound (talk) 09:17, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

## I've replied ...

... on my talk page. Paul August 17:35, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi and thanks for your contribution on Wikipedia. I've noticed that you informed users about the new article you recently created, Adam Wiercinski, on a few talk pages. Please avoid doing so in the future as this is not a very acceptable or appropriate way of asking for suggestions/improvements/translation of an article. If you'd like to know more information about other ways you can try, just let me know and I'll gladly assist you. Yambaram (talk) 20:30, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

I looked for a wikiproject anti-Semitism without finding one. This page is related to both the holocaust and anti-Semitism. This is why I left comments there. Tkuvho (talk) 08:09, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
I've removed your comments from The Holocaust talk page per WP:TPG. While what happened to Wiercinski was lamentable and disgusting, that talk page is for discussing changes to The Holocaust article. The only reason your section has grounds to be here is if you propose to include his story in The Holocaust article itself, which doesn't appear to be the case. I'd oppose such an inclusion as I don't think that incident is notable enough in the grander scale of things. To be honest I think the Wiercinski article itself is a clear case of WP:BLP1E and WP:NOTNEWS and therefore should be deleted or merged into a larger topic. I would suggest instead that you contact the Wikiprojects at the top of the Holocaust talk page, for example Wikipedia:WikiProject_Discrimination, to ask for advice or assistance. Valenciano (talk) 19:58, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
I noticed the "discrimination" WP after posting the comment at the Talk of Holocaust, and posted the query there earlier today. Redirecting this to an existing page is an interesting idea; feel free to make a specific suggestion either at Talk:Adam Wiercinski or at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Discrimination#discrimination_in_New_York. Tkuvho (talk) 20:10, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
I had a look for existing pages to redirect to, but unsuccessfully, as the incident seems too small in the wider scale of things. If there was an Antisemitism in New York article, it could fit in that, but the closest is Antisemitism in the United States and I can't see where in there it would merit a mention. Those articles seem to cover the more general topic, without focusing on specific incidents. Valenciano (talk) 21:47, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

## Rephrase

I am Mohamed Hassan. I have just reverted your edits to 2013 Egyptian coup d'état article as you have removed referenced and relevant information. As I've reviewed the news-link (the reference) and it matches information added. Please try to edit within the Wikipedia neutral philosophy. I don't really know why you did remove it. However again the paragraph/sentence didn't mention that it's a government response either. It only repeated what's in the reference which is general term of the "Israeli diplomats". If you want you can relocate the information to another place in article but please don't remove. —Preceding undated comment added 08:01, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

This is the second user you have reverted with your quarrelsome edits. If you continue in this vein the inevitable outcome is a block. Tkuvho (talk) 13:19, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
Really and why is that! I have just retained what have been done by others. Doing wrong twice doesn't mean it is true. Please read in the news link. It says exactly the same to what have been put. Why is it so easy to remove others work? I wonder! Anyway thanks for your threatening very mature. Mohamed Hassan —Preceding undated comment added 15:18, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

## Nomination of Adam Wiercinski for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Adam Wiercinski is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Adam Wiercinski until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Macrakis (talk) 21:24, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

## Talkback

Hello, Tkuvho. You have new messages at Malik Shabazz's talk page.
Message added 12:56, 5 January 2014 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

## Unneutral naming of Egyptian 2013 revolution

As you realized that some editor has made an article called the Egyptian revolution of 2013,taking and unilateral move which in Many editors in many request refused and to your notice,both people who are editing the article are biased toward-Mubarak and are hostile towards the Egyptian revolution of 2011,also I suspect meatpuppetry,I believe that the article should be called June 30 Demonstrations in Egypt, since the majority of the news agency in the world call it demonstrations,and also to keep it clear,that the mass demonstrations occurred on the night of June 30,so the June 26-29 are insignificant because there is either no protest or minor protest those days and I am going to open a request on the Egyptian coup d'état page to rename and neutralize the article.Alhanuty (talk) 23:52, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

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## Hi

Sorry if you were offended by any language that I used. I will be happy to delete the offending word if that is agreeable to you. Behavioural issues should not be discussed on article talk pages, which are for content discussion only. Off topic discussion is disruptive. You are more than welcome to seek administrative action in the appropriate forum should you so wish. Dlv999 (talk) 18:19, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

I appreciate the apology but indeed I would object to the deletion of the material. Tkuvho (talk) 18:21, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
• As already stated off topic discussion is disruptive. Stop disrupting the artilce talk page with off-topic discussion. you have already been told that "Wikipedia and its discussions are not censored" and that your own very sensitive view of what is inappropriate is not shared by the community. Dlv999 (talk) 08:49, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

## Soda Strem

Reading some of the debate on the talk page of Soda Stream I thought it prudent to mention that you should take a step back and read what is being said. While certainly everyone should try to work together for the betterment of the article you do need to recognize the importance of not misrepresenting the sources you use. In one of the examples a change was made from:

Human Rights Watch has stated that, "It is impossible to ignore the Israeli system of unlawful discrimination, land confiscation, natural resource theft, and forced displacement of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank, where SodaStream is located" to Human Rights Watch has stated that it is impossible to ignore the West Bank location of one of SodaStream's factories.

Human Rights watch spoke out about Israel and it's actions. Perhaps SodaStream is one of those actions but you would need a source that represents that. Use the sources and what they say and not what they don't.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 08:23, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

@Serial, thanks for your comment. Would you care to leave it at Talk:SodaStream so I can respond there? Tkuvho (talk) 08:26, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
It's already there. You have already responded to it. Someone else already posted it to you. This is merely a polite attempt to tell you I don't expect you to curry much favor if your changes do not actually reflect the sourced material.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 09:08, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
I only see one comment by you there, concerning the title of the subsection. I agreed with your change. Your comment on HRW does not seem to appear there. Would you care to post it there so I can respond to it? Tkuvho (talk) 11:33, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

As I said others have already said this to you on the talk page. I see no reason to resay it again on the talk page. It was not my change to the HRW comment. This is a direct quote, "It is impossible to ignore the Israeli system of unlawful discrimination, land confiscation, natural resource theft, and forced displacement of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank, where SodaStream is located". The paraphrased version: "Human Rights Watch has stated that it is impossible to ignore the West Bank location of one of SodaStream's factories." WP:CONTEXTMATTERS You have got the what but you have removed the why. This change is not reasonable. They give a why. HRW has stated that it is impossible to ignore the location of Sodastreams (an Israeli company) Primary manufacturing plant because of the unlawful discrimination, land confiscation, natural resource theft, and forced displacement of Palestinians on the part of Israelis. The implication is that sodastream is benefiting from the subjugation of Palestinians so there for it is wrong. This article has to remain a Neutral point of view. The sources have to be reliable. You can not misrepresent the sources and maintain a NPOV.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 22:47, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

## February 2014

Hello, I'm BracketBot. I have automatically detected that your edit to (ε, δ)-definition of limit may have broken the syntax by modifying 1 "()"s. If you have, don't worry: just edit the page again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on my operator's talk page.

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## Egypt

Good day,
I know you might be preoccupied by other things here but could you try checking on the discussion of the revolution page from time to time and see how it is developing. Because i need your opinion there and i feel i'm wasting a lot of time on endless discussions instead of editing the article itself. Some users there appear to be making unclear proposals which i'm having trouble understanding and one of them (Panam2014) sounds eager to make a move without consensus and i don't want to engage myself in an edit war again. Apparently, you still never gave me your opinion on the current title and i would really appreciate it if you let me hear it. Thanks. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 08:12, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

## Sodastream

You recently introduced a WP:EXTRAORDINARY claim against a third party into the article with inappropriate sourcing. I advice you to self-revert immediately. If you are able to find "multiple high quality sources" for the claim you are free to reintroduce it. I had a look myself, and couldn't find anything outside the settler news service. Dlv999 (talk) 11:28, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

I intended to restore the Haaretz source you improperly deleted. I did not notice the Coca Cola addition. It was removed before I had a chance to do it myself. Tkuvho (talk) 11:49, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

## sodastream

SodaStream The article Sodastream is pretty close to going into a full blown edit war and edit wars are wastes of time. Personally I Feel that most everyone is trying to improve the page. Perhaps we can work together. Come to the talk page and let's see if we can work together productively. Come to the topic titled Edit war.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 21:34, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

## Sodastream talk page is not a forum

Sean Hoyland doesn't have to apologize to you to take part in editing Sodastream. Sodastream talk page is not the place for conduct disputes. If you feel he has violated some kind of policy on conduct try WP:AIN. Please cease with that on the Sodastream talk page.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 10:30, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

== Nomination of Egyptian Revolution of 2013 for deletion ==


A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Egyptian Revolution of 2013 is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Egyptian Revolution of 2013 until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. GreyShark (dibra) 19:37, 17 February 2014 (UTC)