- 1 Welcome from Cubs197
- 2 Moby-Dick and Melville
- 3 Laws of thought -- Rational or Logical ?
- 4 Dickheads, fuckheads, and ochlocracy
- 5 Prophecy of the Popes
- 6 Re: Premier League
- 7 Re: Justin Fashanu
- 8 9/11
- 9 English football clubs in international competition
- 10 June 2013
- 11 Dua's Layer
- 12 BLP concerns - help needed
- 13 Civility templates
- 14 Lost! Help?
- 15 Orwell would be proud
- 16 Central African conflict
- 17 Disambiguation link notification for June 7
Welcome from Cubs197
Cubs197 (talk) 10:45, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Moby-Dick and Melville
Hello! Just making sure you know that what you're adding to Moby-Dick and Herman Melville doesn't quite follow policy. For one thing, the tone is very unencyclopedic and full of weasel words. It comes across as original research, which is not allowed. You also can't use Wikipedia as a reliable source, so never put it as a footnote (especially if it's a reference to info that you added to another article; that's definitely OR). --Midnightdreary (talk) 16:48, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
Laws of thought -- Rational or Logical ?
- The article begins by asserting:
- 'The laws of thought are fundamental axiomatic rules upon which rational discourse itself is based.'
- As a mere layperson who has no wish to get into an edit-war against actual or alleged experts, I am reluctant to correct what nevertheless seems to me to be a common abuse of language in that statement (which seems acceptable in everyday speech but arguably not in an encyclopedia article about logic), namely the use of the word 'rational' when one means 'logical'.
- For instance self-delusion through wishful thinking is illogical, in that it violates rules of logic, but it may well be perfectly 'rational' if it fulfils the person's rational desire to remain happy or to become happier, or even it doesn't but if the person mistakenly thinks that it will, or hopes that it might, or whatever. Discourse intended to achieve such a rational objective is then arguably 'rational discourse', no matter how much it violates rules of logic.
- Much the same can probably also often be said of much discourse in pursuit of a rational motive to deceive others (which arguably means something like almost half of all discourses in almost any debate on almost any subject).
- I may eventually amend the text myself (if I remember), but first I'd prefer to wait and see if somebody with more expertise than me can amend it better. Tlhslobus (talk) 13:22, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- Hi there, Tlhslobus!
- I agree with you that the leading sentence of this article is misleading, and is not entirely correct.
- The idea is derived from Aristotle's Metaphysics, and it is held to be dogmatically correct by the entire Aristotelian world of philosophers and theologians. For this historical and political reason, if you change it, you will likely find yourself in an edit war that you cannot possibly win. For every valid reference you suggest, there are a thousand against you!
- Their underlying argument is that the world is just as Aristotle described it (this, of course, is incorrect according to modern, post-Galilean science, but is correct according to ancient, and still practiced Aristotelian science). This is what Rosa is saying. The second half of their argument is that people are Aristotelian thinkers, and to them the laws of thought naively define rationality. This half is almost entirely correct. You and I are the exceptions. We see the difference. Regards, BlueMist (talk) 22:45, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Dickheads, fuckheads, and ochlocracy
Thanks very much for your "heads up". Appreciated, and feeling a little heartwarmed to find someone responding. Yes, what you wrote at this is very interesting/disturbing. I agree wholeheartedly and commented further there. Seems a vital issue to me, even if it seems to exercise so few. Ahh, the lot of the dissident! LookingGlass (talk) 10:51, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks, LookingGlass. I added a further brief comment there on who is calling whom 'anti-social', given that persecution is profoundly anti-social. I also mention there that this may be a case of what psychologists call 'Projection', where accusation is really a form of confession. I wonder will that get me in trouble as an alleged ad hominem attack - my defence would probably be to quote WP:IAR (which says to ignore all rules if this is necessary to improve Wikipedia). But I may in fact have been far too mild, as I think that pychologists would actually say that they have a technical term to describe those who single people out for persecution, persecute people, and celebrate and cheer on persecution, and that term is 'psychopath'. But I think admins might ban me if I dared to say so in that place. And they might be right to ban me if I did, as I have concerns that psychologists use of the term 'psychopath' as a highly pejorative label for huge numbers of people may often itself be dangerously oppressive, so I possibly or probably shouldn't go down that route myself. Also such a label might be more appropriate for the author of the 'Fuckhead' article than for the author of the 'dick' article. And even the 'Fuckhead' author may simply have been rather innocently trying to amuse or shock. And so on. Tlhslobus (talk) 08:01, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- LoL All things in moderation? Psychologist are surely above being pejorative, surely a psychopathic symptom if ever there was one?! ;) I rather like the research concluding that successful entrepreneurs and business people tend to be sociopaths (psychopaths). Nice to have the boot on a foot placed where it should be imho. Anyway, a good dose of pejorativeness cleans out the tubes I find, even if it does get me into endless trouble. Words should be understood as the fragile things they are. They do their best but we lean on them far too much. It's all about balance, isn't it? I love the wiki "ignore all rules" rule. That one will definitely be put into my quiver. I seem to have ignored "my" rule of replying on my talk page. Knew there HAD to be a good reason! LookingGlass (talk) 19:13, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- I'm afraid shrinks tend to classify business people as psychopaths, but 'sociopath' seems to be a term they reserve for classifying the rest of us - at least judging by one famous Irish legal case (the Kerry Babies enquiry) in which a shrink gave it as his professional opinion that the woman at the centre of the case was a sociopath. Her lawyer asked him to define the term, and after he did so, the lawyer asked him would he agree that this definition would describe about half the population - and he replied Yes :)
- Ahh, hired guns! The words claimed or originated by social sciences cannot be defined as those of natural sciences can. Barristers use this fact to build their attacks on opposing expert witnesses. It makes good headlines, and sways juries if the theatre is good enough, but little more :) LookingGlass (talk) 12:11, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
- You're probably right in general, but I can't help suspecting that this may be one of the exceptions 'that proves the rule' (as the popular saying goes, despite (or maybe because of) the fact that an exception can disprove a rule, but never prove it). As far as I remember, the shrink wasn't really a hired gun, just somebody who got dragged into the case by circumstances, and the lawyer under the circumstances was just doing what he was supposed to do (after all, the shrink agreed the lawyer was right, so it would seemingly have been gross negligence for the lawyer not to ask his question). So it may well be that this incident does actually tell us something about social sciences in general and/or shrinks in particular. Then again that may just be wishful thinking on my part, and I'd expect most shrinks to agree that's all it is :) Tlhslobus (talk) 12:42, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for your addition Tihslobus and your offer of help. Appreciated. Now, "where" "should" this conversation be held? Your Talk page, my Talk page or the article. I get dizzy! :) LookingGlass (talk) 07:23, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
I have removed some of your additions to Prophecy of the Popes. The Bruno book is published by Xulon Press, which means it is self-published, and fails WP:SPS. StAnselm (talk) 19:52, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
Re: Premier League
Hi. The problem with talking about "foreign clubs" is that most of the talk revolves around Welsh and, to a lesser extent, Scottish participation. It's rather inaccurate I'd argue for clubs from one part of the UK to be regarded as "foreign" in another part of the same country. - Chrism would like to hear from you 18:20, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for your reply, Chris. That was why I called the section "Non-English", not "foreign". I simply assumed it was you who had changed it to "foreign" and I didn't want an argument about it. If you want to change it back to "Non-English" (with or without "club"), you would have my full support on that. (I'm posting this on both our Talk pages, to be sure you don't miss it - if you want to continue the conversation, please let me know which Talk page you prefer; I'm putting your Talk page on my watchlist, if I haven't done so already). Tlhslobus (talk) 08:10, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
- If you don't like "non-English", "Celtic" might do instead, though it has its own problems (such as Cornish clubs, and because in theory the section should be available for anybody wishing to report on any future actual or hypothetical proposals to add Continental clubs, such as already happens in Rugby Union (2 Italian clubs in the Celtic League) and Rugby League (where the Catalans play in an otherwise all UK top tier league), or for any editor simply wishing to briefly point out the absence of such proposals in the PL in contrast to those other leagues). But I'm not really bothered, as, by and large, no such wording deprives the reader of any important info, nor supplies it either. Tlhslobus (talk) 08:40, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
Re: Justin Fashanu
Hi: (as this is the first time I've used this feature - please bear with me as I become familiar with it.) Just to say that I am an old friend of the author of the recent Justin Fashanu (JF) biography. He and I have been thinking about trying to improve the JF entry and we were very pleased to see the work you have been doing on it. We were thinking of making changes to add some missing information, give better sources and to question some of the material in the ‘allegation and suicide’ section. As you will appreciate these revisions emerged from the writing of the biography. However in view of the good work you have done we decided we would like to make contact to see whether you would be interested in working collaboratively. If so then I can email you some of our proposed revisions. But, even if this wasn't of interest, it would still be good to hear back from you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Malcb (talk • contribs) 18:48, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks. I don't wish to get involved in a collaboration with people who seem to have a financial vested interest in the matter. On the other hand, you don't need my permission or my collaboration to make reliably-sourced amendments. These can perhaps include information sourced to Jim Read's book if it's deemed a reliable source - I see no clear reason why it wouldn't be - the expression for its publisher DB Publishing (defunct since January 2013, according to something I found on Google, but continuing with e-books as JMD Media), gets nearly 5000 hits on Wikipedia Search, of which about 125 seem to be genuine references to sports books published by it.. Other editors (not necessarily me) may dispute whatever you add (including whoever deleted the bit about Jim Read's book as alleged advertising). I-forget-which section of Wikipedia's rules deals with such conflict-of-interest problems (some admin may tell you about it, if you want to ask them - I may or may not be contacting some admin myself for advice on the matter). I should perhaps (or perhaps not) mention that I'm not particularly interested in wasting any more of my time on Justin Fashanu - I just read the article after hearing his niece on BBC2 Newsnight, then made a few mods to bring the text into line with the quoted sources (particularly The Times and the BBC), then, after somebody 'tidied up' my prose, I made a few more mods to correct some excessive and misleading 'tidying-up'. On both occasions, like other editors, I left out arguably relevant allegations in those two sources which I feared, perhaps mistakenly, might violate Wikipedia guidelines on what can be said about living people - if you want to include that sort of stuff, ask an admin and don't ask me. Tlhslobus (talk) 02:01, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
- Oh, in case you're interested, I forgot to mention that when making my original mods I also copied some stuff about Justin Fashanu to the suicide note article. Tlhslobus (talk) 02:29, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
- I have now got the following advice from an Admin, which I'm passing on to you:
- The main thing in my opinion when dealing with persons with obvious COI issues is to suggest that they only suggest edits on the talk page, not make them themselves. They don't always like that idea and they don't actually have to do it, but it makes them appear more credible and willing to respect our policies. If they are slanting the article on one direction or another we have a dedicated noticeboard at WP:COIN for dealing with that.
- Tlhslobus (talk) 18:20, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
- I have now got the following advice from an Admin, which I'm passing on to you:
- Oh, in case you're interested, I forgot to mention that when making my original mods I also copied some stuff about Justin Fashanu to the suicide note article. Tlhslobus (talk) 02:29, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
I want to express to you that, before 9/11, which I personally experienced very intimately in NYC, the Tian An Men revolt and its suppression was the most personally traumatic political event of my life. Please be assured my opposition to the Chen article has nothing to do with my hopes for China. μηδείς (talk) 03:23, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Hi, I just made a really big edit to the English football clubs in international competition article, correcting a lot of style issues, etc. I realise you've made a fair few edits to the same article in the time it took me to make this one, and so there was an edit conflict that resulted in me overwriting your last few contributions. Instead of you reverting me to get your contributions back, is there any chance you could just re-add your stuff in a new edit? This would save me another multi-hour editing process. Believe me, I did not make this edit to cause you unnecessary grief, but there was no way it could be avoided. – PeeJay 12:54, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
- OK, I'll try adding it back, if I can. But maybe in future you could break your edits into smaller sections + save a copy of larger changes, to avoid problems on this scale?Tlhslobus (talk) 14:25, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
- There was no way I could do that without making the article look inconsistent throughout for a short period. Plus, my edit was broken up by me leaving the house for a good proportion of yesterday. Sorry for the inconvenience, but there really was nothing I could do. – PeeJay 16:17, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Hello, I'm BracketBot. I have automatically detected that your edit to English football clubs in international competition may have broken the syntax by modifying 2 "()"s. If you have, don't worry, just edit the page again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on my operator's talk page.
- List of unpaired brackets remaining on the page:
- UEFA Champions League|2008]]), and [[Manchester United]] ([[2008–09 UEFA Champions League|2009]])) going on to be runners-up, and [[Manchester United]] going on to win an all-English final against [
- Champions League|2011]]),and [[Chelsea F.C.|Chelsea]] in [[2011–12 UEFA Champions League|2012]]) over the next four seasons (2010 to 2013), although [[Manchester United]] went on to be runners-up
Hi and thanks for your contributions, I made some changes to Dua’s Layer, writing medical articles needs adherence to scientific methodology, my purpose was to apply those guidelines, please feel free to revert or modify the changes I made if you think they are inappropriate.Kiatdd (talk) 19:28, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks, Kiatdd. I have no problem with your changes. My problems are with the lack of a clear and explicit statement that it's still only a possible discovery, but I'm bringing that up on the Dua's Layer Talk page, as well as making my own attempt to fix th matter.Tlhslobus (talk) 02:29, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
BLP concerns - help needed
I've put in the above help request (about half an hour ago, at 08.22 according to this page's history) as advised at WP:BLP. I've written up a brief summary of my concerns, but I'm not sure whether I should be posting them here, as they name, briefly describe, and link to Wikipedia pages that may violate BLP, mainly because they contain lots of mostly unsourced criticism (and praise) of at least one living person, or link to such a Wikipedia page. I expect to be going to bed fairly shortly. Tlhslobus (talk) 08:52, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- The BLP Noticeboard is the best place to bring the problems up. You shoould get a quick response by editors experienced in dealing with BLP issues. --GraemeL (talk) 15:36, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
Hi Tlhslobus, Sorry it looks like I misspoke. The essays Don't Be Inconsiderate and Don't Be Obnoxious can be found on the Template:Wikipedia essays under Civility AND on Template:Civility. The essay Don't be a Dick does NOT appear on either of those templates. But obviously there is a third template where DICK is being removed and reverted and I'm at a loss to know where that is :-( -- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:45, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- It's here, Keithbob. And the new 'The No Asshole Rule' is here.The Wikipedia:Civility article is liable to be one of the first that many new editors read, because they are automatically asked to read Wikipedia:Five pillars - the fourth of these pillars is Editors should treat each other with respect and civility which links to Wikipedia:Civility when you click on it. Tlhslobus (talk) 06:57, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
- Incidentally, that means these guidelines may well be read by child editors, and this may mean there are WP:Child Protection issues. So I'm going to try to bring the matter to the attention of Wikipedia's child protection officers, but as I'm not entirely sure how to do this, if you know how to do it, please let me know. Tlhslobus (talk) 07:20, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi, we had a conversation a while back about "Dickheads, fuckheads, and ochlocracy" and so I have come to you for advice. I hope this isn't out of order. After I requested references to some statements in an article another editor deleted the section together with my requests. As the passage seemed reasonable to me I reverted and explained my reasoning on the Talk page. I think an "edit war" has begun. I am steadily losing interest in engaging with Wikipedia, but would like to see if there exist any processes that might resolve "silly" things (perhaps most edit wars are over these). If you have time/and/or/inclination I would appreciate if you would cast your eye over the Talk page section concerned: Talk:Child_grooming#Unsourced_material, and give me the benefit of your wisdom. p.s The user's Talk page seems to show form :( LookingGlass (talk) 21:54, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
- First, LookingGlass, belated thanks for your support on the Dick/Asshole/Fuckhead business. I should have thanked you earlier, but I was (and still am) at least mildly traumatised by my experience after raising the child bullying aspect, and I didn't (and still don't) want to write any more about the matter on Wikipedia.
- Second, as regards your row with Squeakbox, I think his attitude was, or at least appeared to me, at least mildly uncivil and/or inconsiderate in at least one instance, but unfortunately I also happen to think he is basically right in the substance of the dispute, which may also explain why he has the support of Darkness Shines. The point is that there was text there which had been challenged (by you, and quite rightly) for over 3 months and still lacked any reliable citation in support, so anybody could remove it under WP:V, the relevant text being:
- "All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material. Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed."
- Your counterquotation of WP:Deletion is understandable but mistaken, as 'deletion' there has a special meaning which is not applicable here:
- "Deletion of a Wikipedia article removes the current version and all previous versions from public view. Unlike page blanking, which can be performed (or reverted) by any user, only administrators can perform deletion. Administrators also can view deleted pages and reverse ("undelete") any deletion."
- By that definition, deletion has not occured here, so WP:Deletion is irrelevant. So, as far as I can see, as regards the substantive issue, your only alternatives would seem to be to try WP:IAR (which I suspect would be exhausting and probably unsuccessful), or WP:BRD (probably same result), or to go through dispute resolution procedures (probably same result), or to ask for advice from somebody more knowledgeable than me, who would typically have to be found on the list of admins (probably same result, but possibly not, and possibly not too exhausting), or to find a reliable source (and you rightly pointed out that the source Squeakbox used was unreliable, though technically not a blog and the relevant citation was in English - it is the opinion of somebody writing under the pseudonym CaritasVeritas claiming Google +Wikipedia as its vague non-specific source, so definitely not reliable).
- There remains the civility/consideration issue. I thought he was somewhat out of order to write at his initial deletion "(its not a blog but neevr mind, as of now I am not willing to tolerate this unsourced material in this article and strongly suggest you do not restore without a reliable source)" - specifically the mildly threatening 'I strongly suggest' bit seemed to me quite provocative and uncalled for at that point, as you had done almost nothing to deserve criticism, having simply and correctly deleted his unreliable citation, albeit arguably with a less-than-perfect explanation. (I should point out that I don't know whether you two have been in dispute before, which may or may not be relevant) I suspect it's not worth trying to complain about those few words of debatable and seemingly mild (but nonetheless possibly quite hurtful) incivility or lack of consideration, but I could be wrong (I've never yet formally complained about incivility/lack of consideration myself), and if you want to try, I once again suggest you ask for advice from somebody more knowledgeable than me, who, as already mentioned, would typically have to be found on the list of admins. Sorry I can't be of more help. All the best. Tlhslobus (talk) 04:41, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
- I can't conceive of how you could have been more helpful Tlhslobus. A beautifully considered considerate honest open and helpful reply is how I'd describe it. And no thanks needed for my support. Happy if it felt useful.
- I am surprised by Wiki policies, when I am brought up against them (I often have been when in civil disputes in the courts too come to that, or when doing jury duty etc). Now there comes a brief flash in which I imagine editing the most popular and august page I can think of to demand an inline citation against every single unexplicitly source statement e.g on Einstein (challenge possible for last sentence of first para of intro) or The Founding Fathers (entire introductory passage unsourced). I think I might be able to challenge 20-30% of articles without ever reaching the end of the task, and ould then return after three months and a day to begin wholesale deletion!
- Re the grooming article, I think it should be relatively easy to find reliable sources for the passages I asked for citations for - the Butler Schloss Inquiry probably furnished some. Maybe I will hand some over when my "magnus opus" comes to that part ;) but at the moment I've lost the will to live. I'm thinking "that's the way these things go" so there's no point in running against the tide.
- You're probably right about my initial brusqueness having started the nonsense rolling. I've just never got the hang of why some people seem to be able to fire off personal insult yet be tolerated while others can be merely short and be blue-pencilled. What an odd world we humans have created with our "rationality"!
- Anyway, thanks agsin. Amazzing reply!! And great hearing from you. It's like a breath of fresh air reading your though.
- Sorry to hear about the bullying thing, which I somehow missed. I know the boat has sailed, and hit the iceberg probably, but if you can point me in the direction .... I feel that, far from having been a support, I actually went AWOL at the moment some support might have been worth something, even if not to effect a change to the printed outcome.
- Take care of yourself. LookingGlass (talk) 20:20, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks, LookingGlass. I think you're being unfair on yourself - mild technical inaccuracy is not brusqueness, and I suspect (but cannot prove) that it wasn't really the inaccuracy that annoyed him, but the fact that you correctly deleted his citation, though I could of course be wrong.
- As for deleting 20-30% of Wikipedia for lack of citations, that might be fun but it wouldn't be helpful, whereas at least in theory you could in fact arguably usefully tag 5 to 20% of uncited statements as genuinely requiring citations, though most uncited statements in lead paragraphs actually have supporting citations in the body of the article so perhaps they don't need citations, and many uncited statements probably don't need citations because they are not controversial and liable to be challenged (except by unreasonable people), but that still leaves probably millions of statements which should be challenged and backed by citations. You could then come back after maybe 3 months (there's no clear time specified, but 3 months seems reasonable) to see if citations had been supplied. In theory you could then delete them, but the responsible thing would be first to spend perhaps half an hour to see if you can find reliable online citations yourself (that's recommended somewhere in Wikipedia rules, though as far as I know the rules don't say first wait 3 months, so you presumably can't get at Squeakbox on that count) . If you can't find any, ask yourself is that because the statement is wrong, or because the relevant books don't have enough online snippets, and would deletion improve the article or not, and do you want to chase up citations in libraries yourself, or to leave a message in Talk asking others to do so, and possibly suggesting in Talk another 3 months before deletion. And when you've gone through all that you can delete what seems appropriate, while possibly then getting into an exhausting fight with somebody who objects. This responsible behaviour might well improve Wikipedia, but I haven't tried it myself because I suspect it would be a lot more like hard work than fun. Plus it risks giving people like Squeakbox a license for irresponsible deletions. But if you wanted to do so you could always try a small scale experiment to see whether or not it turned out to be on balance a good idea.
- The child bullying aspect of Dick/Asshole/Fuckhead is here, but I don't advise getting involved there. I've written to Arbcom, who have told me there is no bullying issue (after basically telling me that I shouldn't have written to them as paedophilia is not involved, and without answering any of my arguments) and to carry on discussing the matter in Talk if I want to do so (which I don't as there no longer seems any point in wasting my time and causing myself further distress with such discussions). I've thought about other options, but I basically fear the costs risk outweighing the benefits for various strange reasons which it would take me too long to explain.
- All conjectures most welcome Tlhslobus(as you'll gather from my reply on my Talk page).
- I will have a look through the child Bullying piece just for interest. I realise you're not requesting or even recommending anything. By the by I notice the last poster on it was NewYorkBrad. I had a run in with him on an Apollo spaceflight article! Lost/gave up on that one too.
- My aim for the "request/deletion sequence" fantasy wasn't to improve the content of wiki, that, surprisingly to me anyway, remains very good, when unattended by ... the usual faces. It was more to draw attention to the absurdity of the wiki codes and the way they're applied (more elsewhere)
- LookingGlass (talk) 17:50, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
Orwell would be proud
|The Civility Barnstar|
|for ongoing contributions to discussions of civility. That, is your ongoing contributions. ElijahBosley (talk ☞) 20:01, 26 January 2014 (UTC)|
Central African conflict
- Hello, IHBR-YSA. I was undoing your two combined changes, for reasons unrelated to 'shortly after', mainly because they removed the word 'minority' that was there as a result of lengthy discussion. They also introduced syntactical errors, although these could have been fixed without an undo, were it not for the 'minority' problem. If you still want to make changes, please discuss it on the relevant Talk page rather than here, preferably after reading the lengthy Christian-Muslim conflict section on that Talk page.Tlhslobus (talk) 09:29, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
- Incidentally, IHBR-YSA, the main article says: The transitional council, composed of 105 members, met for the first time on 13 April 2013 and immediately elected Djotodia as interim President; there were no other candidates. So I expect 'when' is intended to reflect this, in a way that 'shortly after' does not. However, as mentioned before, that was not my main concern, and if you want to rephrase the sentence to reflect this more accurately, and without altering the Christian-Muslim meanings, then please feel free to do so. Tlhslobus (talk) 09:52, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
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