Automatic invitation to visit WP:Teahouse sent by HostBot
We are going to have to discuss the changes. I of course am trying to assume good faith but in light of the unfortunate split this sounds an awful lot like an attempt to expunge Shodokan. You deleted a reference (http://shodokanaikido.com/en/about/greeting.html) which reproduces a speech given by Tomiki on the opening of the Shodokan and replaced it by a reference which is members only access so can not be used on Wikipedia. I also don't have membership access to Aikido Journal any more but your added text looks familiar (was that copy pasted?). In addition Shodokan Aikido and the Shodokan Dojo is explicitly talked about in Shishida and Nariyama's book. The English translation has it on pages 34-35 which also indicates where the original of the Tomiki speech is displayed.
I have been thinking about how to talk about the split on the style page without airing dirty laundry or showing any positive or negative bias to the principles involved. I know both quite well and in fact wrote the initial pages on Nariyama, Shishida, Ohba and Tomiki not to mention the Shodokan style back in 2005. The fact remains that the Shodokan Dojo in Osaka was founded by Tomiki - almost 50 years of history are not going to be undone by a split barely a year old - which I really hope won't last.Peter Rehse (talk) 15:20, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
Yes I think we should discuss the changes. I do not have any intention to expunge Shodokan. I understand what you are indicating and I will try to add references that I deleted but the phrase Kenji Tomiki founded Shodokan Aikido is a bit far fetched. In none of the articles nor in any biography of his it is stated that he named his style anything other than Aikido or Aikido Kyogi. In fact it was the cause of the split with the Ueshibas. There are also quite a bit of scanned paper work before the split when Ohba sensei was still chairman about making the official English name of the art "Tomiki Aikido" but of course this was not done by Kenji Tomiki Sensei hence I consider that it should not go into his biography. There are many aikido journal articles linked in the wikipedia, specially in the aikikai. You have to log in for certain stuff but what I have linked is free it should not be a problem as there are many interviews and biographies in this page. I will update it, lets see if you are happy with it and you can modify it from there. Regarding the Aikido style page I also think we should change it. My idea is that the article should have as tytle Aikido Kiogi | Shodokan | Tomiki Aikido state that it is the style created by Kenji Tomiki and afterwards when we go to the split we state the names selected and reasoning without having to wash any dirty laundry nor having to state mine is better than yours. In any case lets fix this one first and when we are both happy we can maybe tackle another one. Vbosch1982 (talk) 08:26, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Vincent. I think Aikido Journal is a great resource and most are free (or partly free) but the one you put up was entirely locked. Actually the does not preclude it being used in wikipedia just makes it less useful as a main reference - that is what I meant. Vis a vis the founding of Shodokan Aikido we have the signed speech reproduced in the website I gave above and the Shishida/Nariyama text which is pretty clear. Not qite sre what you mean by a stretch. That said I have always wanted the Tomiki article expanded so welcome - not important to the discussion but can I ask your background.Peter Rehse (talk) 07:26, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Hi Peter, I now see what you meant I have deleted the fully private one. Regarding of the founding of the Shodokan dojo and the speech which I understand is this one : http://shodokanaikido.com/en/about/greeting.html I only see the name shodokan twice, once for the dojo and one below, as this page is relatively new (post split up) and this being just digital text I am a bit skeptic on the term "Shodokan Aikido randori system" (only used once in the whole speech). On the other hand we have many documents both in youtube and articles published by Kenji Tomiki before his death that just state Aikido, Aikido Kyogi or competitive Aikido ( not a word is talked about Tomiki Aikido nor Shodokan, I am trying to be factual):
http://judoinfo.com/tomiki2.htm <- This is the initial article by Kenji Tomiki that starts the whole system it is the cornerstone and can be found in the aikido Journal and other sites.
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=109 <- An interview with Tetsuro Nariyama (pre split) here you can see a clear differentiation between the use of shodokan as dojo and the use of the term competitive aikido during the whole interview.
Some Scanned documents from the JAA pre split even one when Ohba was still president:
I am a computer science researcher and work for the Polithecnic University in Valencia. I study under Michael Thraves Sensei (4th DAN JAA) in Valencia. I have updated the article again let me know how you feel about it.Vbosch1982 (talk) 08:26, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Thanks - I will put some effort into it later also. It did need a bit refreshing and expansion. Actually that speech was included in all the web sites back to the first English version I put up 10 years ago (or more?) translated from the Japanese. The original (all hankoed up) is on display at the dojo. As far back as I can remember (and I know memory is not a reference it has always been called Shodokan Aikido in and outside the dojo by at least Nariyama's crowd. I actually started Aikido under Shishida's domain but a year later moved nearer to Osaka. I am still quite pissed off with the split (and you might guess sensitive) but saw it coming for years. I founded and ran the Himeji Shodokan but these days just train in London.Peter Rehse (talk) 08:41, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Pleasure Peter :-) I will try to do stuff and help out and as you are the senior here you can correct me until we are both happy :-) I understand what you are saying regarding the speech and I do not doubt you or the text. Its just a bit contradictory with the other documents I have shown, the articles and videos actually published by Kenji Tomiki. Which one is right ? Maybe all of them, maybe none. In the end we should just need to make a good article that represents both camps ( I also hate the split ... ) and also conveys the idea that Kenji Tomiki was doing his Aikido and just called it Aikido ( at least for most of his life). Looking forward to your update. Vbosch1982 (talk) 08:51, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Just a couple of changes - I think we should move any further discussion to the Tomiki talk page. I went here first because I was worried (call my paranoid) that this was going to be a post-split slug fest and didn't really want that all over the talk page. It is important that references to web site point to the relevant page rather then the top page so I fixed that for the JAA reference, I included the reference to the greeting in I think the right place and also the reference to the book. I would also like to see the Aikido Journal references incorporated into the text rather than sources but I am not sure where. And finally do you have a reference for the Judo book - that I think is quite important. I was a bit disappointed to see that the profiles are no longer on the Shodokan web site so I removed that link.Peter Rehse (talk) 12:36, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Nope, no need for a slug fest :-) I think we are very reasonable people and we act in the best interest of the art, although we might no share the same opinion on everything, but hey nothing a healthy discussion can't fix. Here is a book for the judo book apendix aikido in amazon, I will add it as you did for the other book:
Good start - a couple of comments. Things like blog posts and aikiweb are not considered reliable references and I would not use them. If something is used in references then remove it from Sources. I would have preferred to see more newspaper reports other than obituaries - I would have expected that more exists and right now the article is short on reliable third party sources. I mention it because lately the passage of articles has been much tougher and I see problems. The BBC footage is actually quite good for showing notability and I would incorporate it in the references. When reading the article, I did notice the name Senta Yamada was a bit overused. Normally the full name gets used once or twice and then just Yamada. Also it should be lower case for judo and aikido. I would also strengthen the notability case in the first paragraph - was he the first to teach Tomiki style, was he one of the first to teach Aikido? Anyway - please submit after a few more tweaks.Peter Rehse (talk) 10:50, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
- I worked through it once mainly for minor grammer and punctuation but I also commented out the Categories and added a reference and some information. Please when it is moved to article space please make sure the categories are again visible. The more an article is cross-linked in wikipedia (not seeding it everywhere mind you) the better chance it has to remain.Peter Rehse (talk) 12:32, 29 May 2014 (UTC)