User talk:Vjmlhds

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25K Award[edit]

Thank you, very much.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 15:20, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

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WJW (TV) staff[edit]

Hello. In your edit here, you said there has already been a discussion for on-air staff, and "As long as we so it in prose form, it's fine." My question is Where did you find that that? As far as I'm concerned and as far as I've read, if it doesn't meet the WP:LISTPEOPLE, they don't belong. I listed three previous discussions concerning this, and non of them state what you say. I have listed the three below again, so you can have a look. Also, a current discussion is taking place here.

If you can provide a link that states what you state, then it should stay. If you cannot provide a link to it, then it should go. If I have to, I will ask those at the WikiProject Television Stations for their opinions. Also, I removed a primary source, which they have been saying in the discussions that a primary source isn't efficient enough. Corkythehornetfan (Talk) 18:27, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

@Corkythehornetfan: If you go to the WJW (TV) talk page, you'll find a section marked WEWS relevant discussion. Click on that, and you'll see a discussion I had with 2 other editors awhile back, where we hashed it out amongst ourselves that the prose version was a satisfactory compromise. Vjmlhds (talk) 20:07, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
Okay, but three people in a discussion isn't enough in my opinion. I think all the television station articles need to be consistent and if that means removing non-notable staff because they don't meet the criteria at WP:LISTPEOPLE, then that means remove the non-notable staff. Corkythehornetfan (Talk) 23:41, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, Vjmlhds, they did not agree with your position at [[[Talk:WEWS-TV#Staff listings]] nor does discussion at the TVS which has involve more people agree with you. You did not compromise, you told them what you wanted which was not what they wanted. Cease adding these lists using primary sources. Spshu (talk) 00:33, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
@Corkythehornetfan: No disrespect, but we DID have the discussion, and the article has rolled along under the results of the discussion with no problems ever since. Vjmlhds 03:32, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
@Spshu: I'm sorry, but I didn't understand what you were saying. Vjmlhds 03:32, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
There's nothing in WP:Primary that says you can't use primary sources in an article. It says that primary sources shouldn't be the only source used, and that secondary sources should also be used. Besides, the big thing about primary sources revolves mainly around WP:BLP, especially as it deals with writing articles about individuals. Listing Joe Blow as an anchor for a TV station on the station's article (and using the station's staff page as a reference) is not NEARLY the same as if I were to write an article about Joe Blow himself, and only use his TV station bio as a reference there. Vjmlhds 03:48, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
Regarding WP:NLIST, I think we're getting some signals crossed here. I see no difference in listing people who are personalities at a TV station than listing the members of a pro sports team. Not everyone on the team may have an article, but because they are part of a high profile team, that makes them notable enough to be listed. MAJOR DIFFERENCE between listing people on a TV station or sports team, and listing people who (for example) work at a car plant. TV anchors/pro athletes are in the public eye and have a degree of fame, thus are notable. Joe Blow who works at the Ford plant down the street...not so much. User:Vjmlhds 04:08, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

←TVS has had this discussion several times before that trumps your discussion at the article page to me. You did not understand the discussion that you claim supports your position; it does not. At the various posts that I grouped that addressed the subject at Talk:WEWS-TV#Staff_listings -- For your position: Vjmlhds --- Against: Bdb484, Qwyrxian, Levdr1lostpassword, Deconstructhis -- with Qwyrxian, Levdr1lostpassword twice objecting to your position.

TV anchors are not suppose to be the news they deliver the news. And they move from TV station at will and frequently. So, news staffs are not the same as a sports team. TVS does require non-primary sources for staff information. Notability is determined by WP notability requirements. Spshu (talk) 17:55, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

@Spshu: Athletes move from team to team - just as TV news anchors move from station to station. And besides, nothing trumps anything. We had a discussion specifically pertaining to WJW and this was the result of it. The station news staff isn't so much a list as it is a roster. On a TV station, when you're in the public eye, it makes you more notable and known than the average person...If Joe Blow was a TV station news anchor, he'd be more likely to be recognized by people when he went to the grocery store than he would be if he were the janitor. Sometimes we need to step out of Wiki world and into the real world to gain perspective of things. Vjmlhds 20:20, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
Yes, WP policy does trump your discussion there. Yes, WP rules trump what you dicide. Second, no discussion occured at the WJW talk page agrees with you as you didn't even post there and only a section links to the discussion at Talk:WEWS-TV#Staff. Secondly, again that was not the result. I post the results 2 to 1 against your position in WEWS-TV#Staff. A roster is a list no matter how you slice it. So, you go out an buy a station jersey with an anchor's name on it? Does the news how the anchor did that night? "Today, the anchor flubed 2 names and..." No, so not the same. Spshu (talk) 20:37, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
I agree, TV stations and sports team rosters are completely different. They are two different fields of employment and two different notability issues. Someone is going to most likely know who an athlete on an athletic team is more than they will a television news team. So, why should I care who the 6 pm news anchor for a station on the east coast if I live in the Midwest, or even vice-versa? Sure, they might notable to those viewers, but they aren't necessarily notable unless they are on a major news source like NBC News or CNN or ABC News, etc. or have had some reason that made them notable. Just because those staff members are on the station's website doesn't necessarily make them notable. If someone wants to know who is an anchor/reporter for that station, then they can go to that station's website as Wikipedia isn't a directory. Corkythehornetfan (Talk) 21:03, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
If you read WP:N, you'll see that "...criteria applied to article/creation retention is not applied to article content". This means that if I wanted to make an article specifically about the people working at WJW (or whatever station), then there'd be an issue, but it's not the same as a couple of paragraphs as part of the overall larger article. And I've read WP:NOTDIR, and there's nothing there which would suggest that having a TV station's news team listed (esp. in prose form) is a violation of anything. In fact, if you look at #1, it clearly states "...Of course, there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are relevant because they are associated with or significantly contribute to the list topic". Adding a couple of paragraphs about a TV station's news team (the public faces of the station as it were) as part of the overall broader article of the station itself meets that criteria. Vjmlhds 22:41, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

The rule on Wikipedia is not that lists of non-notable staff are okay as long as you prosify them instead of bulletpointing — simple unsourced lists of non-notable staff are subject to WP:NLIST and WP:NOTDIR regardless of the format you use to present them. You may add reliably sourced content describing a station's programming style — things about it that are distinctive, staff members who are notable, etc. — but you may not simply add a list of everybody who works at the station at all without sourcing or establishing their notability, and you don't get to claim that one particular station gets its own special right to establish its own special consensus to override the rules that apply to all other TV stations. If other TV stations are violating the rule, then they need to be cleaned up — nobody gets a free pass to simply ignore the established project-wide consensus. Bearcat (talk) 23:15, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

@Bearcat: Well, the list in question is in fact sourced, and has been for quite awhile. Vjmlhds 00:38, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
The only sources being cited in the text in question were the personalities' profiles on the station's own website (a primary source which cannot demonstrate that they're notable enough to warrant mention.) And the content those primary sources were supporting was not a substantive description of the station's prgramming, but just a list of their names.
The other thing to keep in mind is that the names of personalities on the station don't add anything of substantive value to the article. I don't live in Cleveland, or even in the United States — so if Stefani Schaefer or Todd Meany isn't notable enough to have a Wikipedia article of their own to document their career in more depth, then their name being present in the television station's article isn't telling me anything that's valuable for me to learn about the station. (It's highly unlikely that I'll ever have any genuinely important reason to need to know the name of a local news anchor on a local television station in a city I don't live in — and if I ever did, I could just go to the station's own website to get that information anyway.) And if I did live in Cleveland and could therefore watch the station for myself, then I'd already know who they are and thus still wouldn't need to come to Wikipedia to find that out.
So unless a person has enough independent notability to earn a separate Wikipedia article to link to, their name being present in the article on the TV station they work for really serves no purpose except trivia. And it's not comparable to the roster of a professional sports team, the way you suggested above — every person on the roster of a pro sports franchise always automatically qualifies for an independent article on that basis under WP:ATHLETE, so if one or two members are still redlinked that's only because nobody's actually started them yet. But Wikipedia does not extend an automatic presumption of notability to every single news anchor or reporter on a local television station's news team — such people can still sometimes get over the WP:GNG bar, absolutely, but since their notability is local rather than national in scope, they're not automatically entitled to have an article the way a professional athlete is. That's the difference between the two situations. Bearcat (talk) 16:38, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Cease Fire[edit]

@Corkythehornetfan: @Spshu: @Bearcat: OK...I know when I'm licked. I have removed the news team sections from all Cleveland TV stations. Vjmlhds 13:44, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Concerning your template and 3RR[edit]

I'm assuming you may not have read the template you left on my talk page, as it specifically says "without giving a valid reason". That you disagree with the reason does not invalidate it, especially when the edit is supported by Wikipedia policy and consensus regarding this type of material on station articles. Regarding the comment that "you violated WP:3RR, thus you can also be thought to be edit warring", that's also inaccurate. 3RR is more than 3 reverts within a 24 hour period. That's not to suggest that you and I were not edit-warring, but there was no 3RR violation, as there will be if you revert the content again. Please consider this WP:AN3's required warning that you may be blocked from editing without further notice if you continue to edit-war on the article; we have both been properly warned now. If you believe that the material belongs, you are more than welcome to discuss it on the talk page and see if consensus has changed concerning this material, but please do not simply continue to reinsert it as it does not belong on the article. Thank you. - Aoidh (talk) 04:11, 30 September 2014 (UTC)