User talk:Waddlesplash

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Article Feedback deployment[edit]

Hey Waddlesplash; I'm dropping you this note because you've used the article feedback tool in the last month or so. On Thursday and Friday the tool will be down for a major deployment; it should be up by Saturday, failing anything going wrong, and by Monday if something does :). Thanks, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 22:29, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Regarding your edits to Template:Catholic saints and related articles[edit]

Regarding your edits to {{Catholic saints}}, Baruch ben Neriah, Amos (prophet), Joseph (son of Jacob), Jacob and Isaac:

  • People don't have to claim in their life time to be saint. They actually don't.
  • SPQN page is NOT a "official" catholic site. http://saints.sqpn.com/ itself says in its home page that there are thousands of saints not yet listed.
  • There are numeras frescos in Catholic churches all around the world which portray these men and women with circular halo reserved only for Saints.
  • In article Baruch ben Neriah you have given the reason: Article does not indicate he was a Catholic saint. In Anna the Prophetess, you manually removed the reference and then removed this template citing SPQN. How do you justify this?
  • If an article does not have a reference to them being a saint, please do add. The Byzantine Rite of the Catholic Church celebrates feasts days for Old Testament saints.

Before changing an established template, please create consensus. Do not edit unanimously. Thank you. --Jayarathina (talk) 14:48, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

In order:
1. I understand that. The reason I made these edits is that nowhere in Roman Catholic doctrine can I find these people honored as saints.
2. I realize that, but just because there are thousands of yunlisted ones doesn't mean we can assume people are saints.
3. Just because someone painted a halo doesn't mean the person is a saint. Only the Church can declare that.
4. The SPQN reference did not link to a page on that site, and no feast day was listed. SPQN does not have Anna the Prophetess, the only Anna I found was Anna, mother of Mary. Which is obviously a different Anna. Whether or not my other edits were justified, that one certainly was.
5. Byzantine Rite Catholics are under the Pope, but the template box seems to be for Roman Catholics. Even so, some of those that I removed didn't appear to be saints in either rite, after a Google search or two.
Lastly, you're right, I should have discussed this. Mea culpa. Waddlesplash (talk) 15:24, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
1. I would like to note that Old Martyrologium Romanum did list old testament saints. When newer saints are added. Old testament saints are made optional remembrance. And slowly removed from Latin rite calendar of saint. But they are still saints.
2. I agree.
3(i). I am sorry, I disagree with you on saying that halo doesn't mean the person is to be a saint. Halos in Christian Art are explicitly reserved only for saints. When explaining about this artistic deception Catholic encyclopedia says: aureole ... was reserved at first for the Divinity, and later extended to the Blessed Virgin and other saints. Living people are depicted with square halo.[1]
3(ii). I disagree with you on saying again that one can be accepted as a saint only by an official declaration by the Church. This rule applies only to modern saints. Church doesn't have to declare prophets and persons as as saint whose holiness is testified in scripture. And when was Mary, Joseph and the Apostles declared a saint by the Catholic church? Never.
4. I agree SPQN reference was for a different saint, But that does not make her not a saint.
5. Why do you think the template is Roman Catholics, when the template name is catholic saints and not roman catholic saints?

--Jayarathina (talk) 17:37, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Waddlesplash is right. We cannot decide ourselves, even through discussion, who is a saint. We need official sources. And add their sainthood to their articles first. Dougweller (talk) 17:10, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
4. There is NO SOURCE for her being a saint, and I cannot find one either. The reference is invalid, and should be removed. She should also be removed from the template too.Waddlesplash (talk) 18:11, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Waddlesplash, February 3 is the feast day of the elder Simeon and the prophetess Anna. (Src: Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh) If this is not sufficient, I would like to know why. (I removed SPQN reference and added this in that page) --Jayarathina (talk) 18:26, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
That is acceptable. Waddlesplash (talk) 18:31, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

If you want to call someone a saint, you need a clearly reliable source per WP:RS - not images with halos. Dougweller (talk) 17:08, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

@Dougweller: I disagree with that. Halos are used in the catholic church only for saints. I have never seen a non-saint person depicted with a halo. As I mentioned earlier Catholic encyclopedia also concurs. We cannot expect biblical people to have been declared to be saints. I agree with you for asking reliable source. I will provide as soon as possible. Please give me some time. I will find one satisfying WP:RS --Jayarathina (talk) 17:37, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
@Dougweller:A small doubt, does the following links be consider a reliable source?

On the Second Sunday before the Nativity (December 11-17), the Sunday of the Forefathers, we recall the holy men and women who lived under the Old Covenant, and looked forward to the coming of the Messiah.

Liturgy > Liturgical year >The Christmas Fast Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh

The patriarchs, prophets and certain other Old Testament figures have been and always will be honored as saints in all the Church's liturgical traditions.

Dougweller, If second one cannot be considered as a reliable source. I don't know what will. --Jayarathina (talk) 18:03, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Possibly for the patriarchs and prophets but I strongly believe it needs to be in their articles - no saint should be in the template unless their articles makes it clear they are a saint. Dougweller (talk) 19:41, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Dougweller, Other than patriarchs and prophets for whom else in the template do we need to find a reliable source? --Jayarathina (talk) 01:55, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Sorry Jayarathina, it would take me too long to check, anyone else who isn't blatantly obvious/might be contended. Dougweller (talk) 05:25, 4 December 2013 (UTC)