User talk:WhatamIdoing

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If you expected a reply on another page and didn't get it, then please feel free to remind me. My watchlist is over 2,000 pages at the moment, and I'm not keeping up with every page. You can also use the magic summoning tool if you remember to link my userpage in the same edit in which you sign the message.

Please add notes to the end of this page. I'll probably reply here unless you suggest another page for a reply. Thanks, WhatamIdoing (talk)


Kindness Barnstar Hires.png The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar
Just to say thank you for your kindness in creating those quote boxes. They're exactly what I was looking for, and it was very nice of you to make them. All the best, SlimVirgin (talk) 04:48, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
You're welcome I wish that I knew how to make the blockquotes re-size automatically, so it would adapt better to different display setups. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:16, 28 August 2014 (UTC)


Just to say thank you very much for the barnstar - it was a welcome surprise! Iztwoz (talk) 15:49, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:20, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

WP:ARBATC notice[edit]

Commons-emblem-notice.svg Please carefully read this information:

The Arbitration Committee has authorised discretionary sanctions to be used for pages regarding the English Wikipedia Manual of Style and article titles policy, a topic which you have edited. The Committee's decision is here.

Discretionary sanctions is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimize disruption to controversial topics. This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to the topic that do not adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, our standards of behavior, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. This message is to notify you sanctions are authorised for the topic you are editing. Before continuing to edit this topic, please familiarise yourself with the discretionary sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions.

This message is informational only and does not imply misconduct regarding your contributions to date.

While I share your concerns, expressed on its talk page, with the effects the wording of this template may have on newbie users, you're not one of them. It seems likely to me that this sort of thing is particularly contraindicated in WP:AT discussions, per the WP:ARBATC ArbCom decision and its followup.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  11:16, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd be happy to have you explain how a discussion about whether or not your "serious breed research" involves WP:Published materials or solely personal experience has anything to do with WP:Article titles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:54, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Because it's part of a long string of antagonism directed from you to me, relating to animal breed article titles. I could pick a different example, if you'd prefer, like the frivolous second ANI you filed and which was rejected. The point here isn't actually to renew the dispute, it's to say "let's stop personalizing this so much before it gets worse". I'm think that a multi-party dispute resolution might be in order, between you, me, Justlettersandnumbers and Montanabw. You and I, and Montanbw and I, have historically had plenty of non-antagonistic interaction, so I have high hopes. Not so sure about Justlettersandnumbers, but I assume good faith. I think there's a general mutual personality conflict happening, coupled with my overconfidence that moves wouldn't or shouldn't be controversial, an issue that's already been resolved at the first, valid ANI. (Which has actually changed my own views with regard to page moving; I'm now skeptical of direct moves as useful for anything but truly trivial operations, because it sows potential for pointless conflict, like trying to do business on the basis of verbal agreements instead of written contracts). NB: Just the act of giving you an ARBATC notice resets my own to the same date, so we're on the same playing field. Which will hopefully be less like the battle kind.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  00:31, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Um, could you give me a diff for the ANI report you're talking about? I'll help you out: Here's a complete list of every edit I've ever made to ANI. There have been just 87 of them ever, and only six in the last two years, none of which, so far as I can tell, have anything to do with either you or article titles.
Also, please go check all the recent discussions about titles for animals. I don't believe that you'll find my name in them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:39, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
I evidently was confusing you with Justlettersandnumbers and perhaps someone else, too. I apologize for involving you in this. While I didn't appreciate the tone in that WT:NOR discussion, you're right that it's not a WP:AT matter and that you've not been involved in the same disputes, and I agree with you on much else. I think I even cited something of yours recently as exemplary of how to approach WikiProject banners and their purpose. Sorry for what amounts to a false accusation.  :-(  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  09:02, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
No problem. We all make small mistakes like this. I'm glad you've got it sorted in your mind now.
Happy editing, WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:04, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:Harvard citation documentation[edit]

Hi, the problem with this edit is that Template:Harvard citation documentation is shared by eight templates: {{harv}}; {{harvnb}}; {{harvtxt}}; {{harvcol}}; {{harvcolnb}}; {{harvcoltxt}}; {{sfn}}; {{sfnp}}, and only a few of these produce Harvard citations; several have no parentheses at all. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:16, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Since some people know the one name and others know the other, I thought it would be helpful to have all the synonyms in place. I think it's a good idea to have some description of the purpose on each template, along with links to WP:CITE and (perhaps for all except the sfn templates) WP:HARV. It would be redundant if the individual templates already have such a statement. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:40, 24 September 2014 (UTC)


Hi. I'll be in San Francisco from 30th October (in the office for a meeting at 2:00) until the evening of Thursday 6th November. Would you like to meet up? (Email me if you're interested.) --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 06:15, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Nursing question[edit]

Thanks for the invite to WP:Medicne which I am aware of, however I tend to avoid wp articles related to work (for a range of reasons). As far as Morning care goes this reads as American terminology and I would hope is an outdated concept as we have /should have moved to individualised care providing care to patients/clients/service users at time which are right for them rather than sticking to institutionalised routines.— Rod talk 06:57, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! That's useful information for me. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:17, 26 September 2014 (UTC)


Mind the gap1.svg

We would love you to join the Gender Gap task force.

There you can coordinate with editors who are addressing the effect of the gender gap on women on Wikipedia – whether as article subjects, editors or readers. If you would like to help, please sign up or visit the talk page.

Happy editing, SlimVirgin (talk) 23:53, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

WikiProject Cleanup[edit]

Hi. About a year ago you made some suggestions on the talk page of wikiprojects cleanup. It seems most posts are old but the page is not yet listed as inactive. I want to help do clean ups. thanks, "Selene Scott (talk) 00:58, 30 September 2014 (UTC)"

Hi Selene Scott,
Sign-up lists aren't always maintained for WikiProjects. Just do your best, and post (like you just did) to let other people know that you're helping out, too. That WikiProject has been quiet for a long time, so it's nice to see someone posting there. By the way, if you make a pretty good effort, then you should feel free to remove the page from the list (and related tags from the article). If someone disagrees, then that person can always put it back. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:23, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
Okay thank you for bringing me up to date on that. "Selene Scott (talk) 04:42, 2 October 2014 (UTC)"

Thanks for link[edit]

Thank you for the requested moves-link. Hope it will help. If not, i might come back to you - ok?

All the best!!! Wikirictor (talk) 06:12, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, so I can't move the page for you. But if the RM process doesn't work, and you still think it should be moved, then come back and we'll find some help together. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:23, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Opinion needed[edit]

Waid, would you have time to offer an opinion at the West Africa Ebola virus outbreak article, #1 on the talk page "Possibly successful Ebola treatment with Lamivudine". It's not a long and involved dispute and I think it will only take a few minutes of your time, which I know must be short considering all you get done around this place. I continue to enjoy your intelligent posts here and there - you seem to have the ability to get right to the heart of the matter while many other editors flounder... Gandydancer (talk) 13:14, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Oh you little Miss Smarty Pants. Once again, thank you so much! That article is beginning to remind me of when I had 13 little goldendoodles running around my home. (Yes, that photo is my Golden Retarded with her 13 pups) :) Gandydancer (talk) 16:07, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Behaviour at WT:ORG and elsewhere[edit]

It has come to my attention that yesterday you left a message at Wikipedia talk:Notability asking for more input in the discussion I started at WT:ORG. I think you've been here long enough to know that the advertising of discussions is subject to the Wikipedia:Canvassing behavioural guideline. This requires that notices are transparent and non-partisan. The notice you left was clearly one-sided campaigning which is unacceptable under this guideline. I also note that you did not leave any indication at WT:ORG that you had advertised this discussion elsewhere, therefore going against the guideline's requirements to be transparent. Normally I would consider that trivial, but given the partisan nature of the notice I think it is reasonable to conclude that you were hoping that myself and others wouldn't notice what you were doing. Well unfortunately you were mistaken.

This incidence comes shortly after you responded to Unscintillating (talk · contribs) in a way which could be reasonably interpreted as trying to deter that person from commenting further. No user has the right to attempt to drive someone away from a talk page simply for holding a different opinion from others. I originally ignored this incident as I didn't want it to distract from the discussion, but Orderinchaos (talk · contribs) did challenge you over it. I too do not find the justification you gave for this comment at all convincing, and I don't think many other users would either.

I accept I have been highly critical of the current state of the guideline and how scrutiny of it has been handled in the past, but I believe in the circumstances such commentary is justified and I have avoided personalizing the issue whenever possible. However I was not expecting this pattern of behaviour, which seems to be to try and "win" all discussions related to WT:ORG even if that means violating established behavioural norms, which has become intolerable. I really don't want this to escalate further, so I kindly ask for three things from you. Firstly, please to do make any further comments at WT:ORG which say, or could be reasonably interpreted as saying, that further input from a contributor is not welcome. Secondly, if you notify users of a discussion, please ensure you observe WP:CANVASS in full in the future. Thirdly, I would like you to think about how this behaviour reflects on the community and the Wikimedia Foundation, given your status as a community liaison. CT Cooper · talk 14:17, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Lessee here, CANVAS used to recommend:
  • Limited: Yup, one single message.
  • Open: Yup, it's posted right there in public, on wiki, for anyone in the world to see.
  • Non-partisan: Yup, I posted it to as non-partisan an audience as possible.
  • Neutral: I told them that I held strong views on the subject, which has the advantage of making sure that they arrive with a skeptical eye. Bland notices like {{Please see}} are not as effective at getting people to respond as telling them a story.
  • Notified at the original discussion: This has never been required by CANVAS, especially when the message is at the obvious "parent" page instead of at user pages.
It might help you to know that I've been active at both of these pages for years, and therefore that most the regulars at WT:N already know what I think about this subject. I could have posted "Another discussion about whether small-town newspapers, all by themselves, prove notability for local small businesses", but that wouldn't have informed any passersby or newcomers that I have long-standing views on this subject.
Unscintillating and I have worked together many times. I'm sincerely disappointed that s/he decided to stop reading the discussion—i.e., had already decided to stop participating in the discussion—because he disliked a fact that anyone can verify by looking at AFDs over the last year (or five). As they say, you are entitled to your own opinions; you are not entitled to your own facts.
Like you, I would be happy to have the guideline improved to more accurately reflect actual practice. I would not, however, be happy to have it changed to make every other local business in a small town appear to qualify for an article on the English Wikipedia, when we know full well that these articles will all be deleted or merged away at AFD. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:58, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
WP:CANVASS also requires that the message itself be non-partisan by stating... "The following behaviors are regarded as characteristic of inappropriate notification (and may be seen as disruptive): ... Campaigning: Posting a notification of discussion that presents the topic in a non-neutral manner." It is quite obvious that the message was non-neutral and the guideline has been breached. The lack of transparency was a minor issue compared to this, but a note at WT:ORG wouldn't have hurt anyone, and may have avoided giving myself the perception that you were trying to turn around a discussion which wasn't going your way in a covert manner. The alleged knowledge of users at WT:N is irrelevant, and if anything only shows how unnecessary the posting of a partisan advertisement was.
I am aware of your history at WT:ORG and WT:N. The meaning of your message was clear to myself and others. This excuse that Unscintillating said (s)he had stopped reading isn't convincing, as that didn't mean that (s)he wouldn't comment further, and even if it did, that doesn't justify firing a parting shot.
I'm afraid you do not have a monopoly on facts in this discussion, which is one reason why there is disagreement among multiple editors in good standing, so repeatedly substituting the word "I" for "we" is not helpful. I do not accept your interpretation of events at AfD, and even if I did, they are arguably irrelevant for reasons I have already explained and to which you have not replied. Regardless, this discussion will continue until a consensus on any changes to WP:AUD is reached. And when that is finished, there are plenty more sections of the guideline which need review, so there is a long way to go yet. CT Cooper · talk 18:49, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Lynn Sibley[edit]

I'm a little rusty. With what little remains of your time, would you mind checking Lynn Sibley? It had notability concerns raised in 2012 and no substantial edits since. If not notable, does one WP:PROD or should it go to a discussion of some sort? Basie (talk) 04:12, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi Basie,
I'm not sure if she meets the criteria for an article. The nominal standards are listed at Wikipedia:Notability (academics). The list of activities make her sound fairly important, but does she fully meet the usual rules? I just don't know. There are a lot of publications at Google Scholar that mention her work (including many written by her), but I couldn't find a whole lot about her. But perhaps my search simply wasn't good enough.
My normal rule of thumb is to WP:PROD whenever possible, but this one might be better handled at WP:AFD because of the uncertainty. The process is almost exactly the same in both cases: Step one, go to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets and turn on Twinkle (about five items from the bottom of the first section). Step two, go to the article and choose either PROD or XFD from the new "TW" menu at the top of the article. Step three, fill in the little form, especially the reason. Step four, think about how much simpler this is in Twinkle compared to manually formatting half a dozen picky steps for AFD by hand.
Alternatively, if you think she probably does qualify for an article here, then you could just remove the notability tag from the top of the page and call it done. I really don't know how to predict the likelihood of deletion at AFD: 50–50? 60–40? Whatever you think is best will probably be fine. (Also, quick bias test: If that article were about a physician instead of a nurse, do you think it would be considered notable? If so, then it should be kept. Wikipedia's notability rules don't have any "doctors outrank nurses" nonsense.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:06, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! I went the AfD route. Going through the categories of ??? importance has been quite instructive. There are plenty of nurses with formidable resumes, but I'm sure not all of them rate an article. Basie (talk) 05:23, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Good luck. Whichever way it breaks, it will probably be a reasonable outcome.
I feel sorry for some of the borderline-notable/judgment-call BLPs. Some of them really want an article, but I wish our bar were noticeably higher, because good articles are uncommon, and vandals aren't. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:46, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the cookie :)[edit]

Seppi333 (Insert  | Maintained) 12:38, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Arab Health[edit]

Me again. The above article is fairly clearly a copyright violation ([comparison]) of [Zawya's story], probably via a press release from the parent organisation. Further, it's hardly neutral in tone. In my inexperience I'm still a little shaky on the best course: copypaste template? Blank and copyvio template? Try to engage the contributors somehow? Basie (talk) 04:24, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Given the account name of the person who added it, I think that {{subst:Copyvio}} is the way to go. I suspect that s/he has permission from the copyright holder to do this. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:46, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
As always, thanks so much for your help! Cheers, Basie (talk) 03:26, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:RFC list footer[edit]

Ambox warning blue.svgTemplate:RFC list footer has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. G. C. Hood (talk) 16:32, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

fyi discussion on public HIV testing article[edit]

At Talk:Public HIV testing in the United States#Broader topic of screening, there is ongoing discussion of re-focusing that article. You commented at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Public HIV testing in the United States (which closed "no consensus"), and might be interested in commenting at the new discussion. All AFD commenters are being contacted now. --doncram 22:19, 29 November 2014 (UTC)


Hello WAID, I hope that you are well. I would like to transfer some of the content on Bone (especially the 'function' section), to Wikiversity with a view to making it somewhat more encyclopedic. How might I go about this? I hope you are well, --Tom (LT) (talk) 22:41, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't think I've ever done it, but Help:Transwiki is supposed to have the answers. If you need to move an entire page there (and get rid of the one here), then {{Copy to Wikiversity}} is the right way to request help, but I don't think that would be a perfect match for this situation. Feel free to let me know how it's going. I'm busy in real life this weekend, but I'll look in when I can. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:20, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
Thanks WAID, I've copied it. --Tom (LT) (talk) 07:19, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

My experience debating a diet topic with Alexbrn[edit]

Hi there, WhatamIdoing. Not sure if we've crossed paths before, but I just noticed that you had disagreed with User:Alexbrn over the use of sources on the Feingold diet article—which I see Alexbrn has edited extensively to be quite short and focused primarily on criticisms. As a matter of fact, I've been facing the same issue on South Beach Diet.

Before going further, I should state I have a financial COI with the topic: earlier this year, the South Breach Diet brand contracted with me to identify errors and suggest improvements for the diet's Wikipedia entry. During this process I have always disclosed this clearly and confined myself to discussion pages. In the latest circumstances, Alexbrn has objected to my suggestions for improving two sections on very narrow terms. I have taken the issue to RfC (fair warning, it's pretty TLDR) and offered compromise on several points in hopes of finding a consensus. However, only Alexbrn has participated, and has become increasingly combative.

I fully expect Alexbrn will follow the ping I've included and disagree with my summary here. However, I think I'm quite sure I have the right of it, and now that I see there's an emerging pattern, I felt like I could add some perspective. And of course I need some help to resolve my issue. Interested in your thoughts, if any. Best, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 21:25, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) the pattern is that Alexbrn spends hours cleaning cruft out of WP put there by purveyors of woo. Among the quack-fighters he is by far one of the most reasonable. Act cluefully and bring great sources, concisely and nicely, and you can get somewhere with him; he asks real questions and he doesn't play games, unlike the worst in that bunch. His goal is to make a minimally reasonable article, then he is on to the next problem. You do have to understand, WWB Too, that you are making money off our work and our volunteer time, and you are trying to pump up what is a fad diet that yet other people make money from. To your credit you have been pretty calm but this post is disappointing. Please remember that you are essentially exploiting all of us for your personal gain. That is not pretty and you shouldn't expect anyone to be nice to you or to entertain requests to make articles yet more shiny for very long. Jytdog (talk) 21:56, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
Hi again, Jytdog. Believe me, I am very aware that volunteer Wikipedians are doing me a favor by considering my suggestions. I've been a Wikipedia volunteer myself since 2006, and I care about following WP:COI guidelines; avoiding direct edits on such topics means I need assistance from those uninvolved, which I can usually find. In this instance, the only respondent I have had lately is Alexbrn, and this is disappointing.
I'm also keenly aware that this article falls into a topic area where woo flourishes, and I am no purveyor of woo. I'm simply trying to make it a respectable encyclopedia article. Not shiny, but balanced and well-rounded. I don't see that as exploitive—I see my role as helping Wikipedia improve topics that languish without someone bringing attention to them. And no great surprise that South Beach Diet cares what Wikipedia has to say about it. WWB Too (Talk · COI) 22:12, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
Yes appreciate you following the COI guideline very much! and i don't mind people making money either. I do mind that you complain about the behavior of the only person who is even talking to you. :) i would not have said a damn thing if you had just asked WAID to help you instead of piling on a complaint about someone I view as a very good editor, who keeps working the trenches and keeps a good and civil attitude, even though he has to deal with loads of assholes (i am not counting you in that bunch, but you should take some time and explore his edits and interactions sometime) Jytdog (talk) 22:18, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
I follow your point about Alexbrn's contributions overall, although my experience has been different. One more piece of information to explain where I'm coming from: within this same time frame Alexbrn also joined an AfD on one of my articles to !vote delete. So I hope you can see why I'm feeling singled out here, not to mention frustrated by the lack of additional voices at Talk:SBD. Jytdog, I thought you made good points when you participated before. If either you or WAID are able to help bring the SBD dispute to a resolution, I'd be very grateful. WWB Too (Talk · COI) 22:35, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
I've got relatively little interest in diets. I've known Alex for years. He seems to believe that any treatment that is ineffective must be alternative, and vice versa, and he can be quite strident about it. He often does good work, but his commitment to his righteous battle against the evil charlatans lands him in an unfortunate number of overheated disputes, and we end up with discussions in which the only real outcome is that even more people are angry and frustrated and sick of Wikipedia.
Glancing over that RFC, you should not expect any responses from uninvolved editors. Once you've got such a long argument between two parties on the RFC, people are generally unwilling to share their opinions. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:38, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback about the RfC; I think you're probably right about how it will (or won't) progress from here. I actually did receive one more reply, however it was from the same perspective: an observation that some of the material I've offered may be useful, a concern that any de-emphasis of criticism in the introduction is a "POV slant favoring the diet", and no suggestions pointing to a way forward.
While this "commitment to ... righteous battle" undoubtedly keeps pseudo-scientific nonsense off Wikipedia, I'm still concerned about its potential for overcorrection. For example, this apparently prevailing view that writing about diet plans in a dispassionate manner—as if one was writing about a software company—is effectively NPOV. Surely a more moderate consensus must be possible. WWB Too (Talk · COI) 12:38, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
Hmm. I try to pick my battles, so I'll probably just leave one comment here. I gave two examples of POV concerns (and they were only examples - there are more), and de-emphasis of criticism in the introduction was the lesser of the two. To me, the suggestions I made for "a way forward" seem pretty clear; e.g. if I think you overemphasized something, that means I'm suggesting that you de-emphasize it.
TBH I wouldn't have minded further discussion on that article, as long as you give me a few days to respond, but your edits since my comment - your closing of the discussion, the forum shopping, and the general tone of your comments (which I have to describe as "PR-speak" for lack of a better term, even though that may be uncharitable) - have turned me off somewhat. Sunrise (talk) 19:15, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
This is a bit of a tangent, but hearing accusations of "PR-speak" bothers me, because in the last year or two, it appears that it has become a code phrase (among some editors, but probably not you!) for "expressed disagreement without cussing", which is kind of sad. We have such a problem with incivility that a little more "PR-speak", in the sense of polite, measured, calm messages might actually be welcome. I have once or twice asked people to re-write such alleged "PR-speak" in a way that maintains the facts but doesn't sound like a public relations piece. So far, nobody's been able to do it. I doubt that this has changed their opinions about it; it seems more a gut reaction either to professional communication, or (more likely) to the message itself.
("PR-speak" in the sense of filling a page with glittering generalities is, of course, a different problem.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:31, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, definitely no code phrases intended. :-) I really didn't know what other term to use. He follows the guidelines for COI editors, which I commend him for, and non-COI editors often speak this way as well (probably everyone does now and then). It bothers me perhaps a bit more than it should - maybe because I've studied the typical techniques used for persuasion, and they tend to jump out at me. In any case, I was referring to things like the difference in approach between his response to me in the RfC and his commentary here, which is much more negative. There are also issues of word choice, like the description of one's preferred opinion as "more moderate" (which might or might not be true, but also implies that other opinions are more extreme). I suppose I could rewrite the comment to better describe my meaning if you really wanted me to! Sunrise (talk) 20:04, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
There's no need to re-write anything. I don't know what the ideal term would be, either.
By the way, there's an editor whose username (translated) means "neutral editor". I love that name. It's emblematic of this type of problem, and the difficulty that some editors have with differentiating between "my" POV and a truly neutral POV. (Naturally, all right-thinking editors will agree that I'm the most neutral, moderate, unbiased editor that has ever been seen at Wikipedia. Face-wink.svg) WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:37, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Naturally. :-) Sunrise (talk) 04:03, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Nationality and National Identity[edit]

That was very clever of you to point out that the government census documents were actually referring to 'National Identity' as opposed to 'Nationality'. Have a look at the latest proposal on the James Clerk Maxwell talk page. The proposal would mean that we can list him as having a Scottish national identity without trampling on his British nationality. (talk) 08:04, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

To be fair to the people who live there, the Office of National Statistics is far more precise about their language than other government agencies (as one might expect from an agency whose job is to get it right). They routinely government encounter forms that ask them whether their "nationality" is Scottish, Welsh, English, etc. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:32, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Invitation Regarding Reliable Sources[edit]

Given your recent activity on the talk page of Verifiable, I am inviting you to participate in the discussion I started in regard to establishing a prima facia case for verifiable sources if it is has met and maintained the standards for inclusion in Google News.–GodBlessYou2 (talk) 20:16, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

non-breaking spaces and VE[edit]

Hey WAID, you pinged me at User_talk:Nettrom#Stub_predictions (I'm not sure why). But while I'm here ... is it possible to tell the difference between a space and an nbsp in VE? I can't see how. - Dank (push to talk) 23:04, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Dan, I don't think that it's possible to add a nbsp in VisualEditor. The last time I looked, which was months ago, if you do it from the keyboard (which is easy on a Mac), that it just replaces your nbsp with a regular space. I'm not sure how it handles the HTML code, but I haven't ever seen anything that looked different from a regular space, so I suspect that there is no visible difference at this time.
I pinged you at Nettrom's page because we had talked about that article assessment tool for MILHIST back in August or September. Since I've wrapped up my end, I wanted to let you know what I thought, in case you wanted to request a similar list for MILHIST. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:35, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Okay, thanks. On the nbsp ... holy crap. I had to enter one nbsp in an article yesterday (a FAC reviewer had requested it), so I typed   into the VE edit window and made the silly assumption that it would be fine. I just went back and looked, and   was what it gave me in the normal edit screen, so that it appeared to readers as  . I've fixed it in the normal editor. If you guys are concerned about what things cause push-back against VE, this would be one of them. (I missed this issue before because, per my copyediting disclaimer, nbsp's and all other hidden codes constitute one of those issues I leave for other people to worry about.) I'm about to get a new hat (but keep a lid on this until someone actually closes the damn discussion) ... that's going to tie me up for two months at least, but after that, maybe we could talk about getting Mediawiki's page renderer to deal with some nbsp issues so that the lack of nbsp-handling in VE becomes less of a big deal. - Dank (push to talk) 15:30, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
The need for nbsp's was officially reported approximately forever ago (July 2013). I haven't heard the devs mention it, so I expect that it will be a long time before we see any progress there. It may be stalled on design; if you've got ideas for what you want it to look like (e.g., when you edit a page that already contains a non-breaking space), then please let me know. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:40, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Sure thing, I'll give it some thought. - Dank (push to talk) 00:13, 16 December 2014 (UTC)


Beta whatsis? MLPainless (talk) 05:07, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I was assuming that you knew a bit about pack theory, and choosing to believe that you weren't trying to be quite so rude.  ;-)
Subdominant is usually (more or less) a synonym for beta, although other sources use it to refer collectively to beta and omega animals (i.e., everyone except alpha). So, roughly, "the leader and his pack of barking acolytes". WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:16, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Merry Merry[edit]

To you and yours


FWiW Bzuk (talk) 22:03, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Happy New Year WhatamIdoing![edit]

Happy New Year![edit]

Fuochi d'artificio.gif

Dear WhatamIdoing,
HAPPY NEW YEAR Hoping 2015 will be a great year for you! Thank you for your contributions!
From a fellow editor,
--FWiW Bzuk (talk)

This message promotes WikiLove. Originally created by Nahnah4 (see "invisible note").

Happy New Year WhatamIdoing![edit]

Happy New Year WhatamIdoing![edit]


Thanks for the clarification and the links. I've put them at my toolkit. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:53, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

You're welcome. As I said there, I've been working in this niche for a couple of years. It's one of our more complicated concepts, and there is no bright line. Real-world experts can and do disagree over classification sometimes, and we editors aren't likely to do any better than them. We can only do our best.
If those advice pages need improvements, then please be bold, or post on the talk pages. The more editors and the more subject areas that we look at them through, the better they'll end up. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:03, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Happy new year![edit]

Belated as I've been in a hammock by a river during the holidays, well and truly out of broadband range. Just wanted to say thanks for your work and assistance, and best wishes for 2015. Cheers, Basie (talk) 07:47, 6 January 2015 (UTC)


Hi, got your message here. I am not really active on Kannada Wikipedia. Mainly because I find it difficult to type in Kannada. I did use some tools but found that the translation was not very perfect. I am planning to start working on Kannada Wikipedia but most of the times my laziness triumphs :-) -sarvajna (talk) 09:04, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi sarvajna,
Thank you for this message. How do you type in Kannada? I assume that some people have a special keyboard for it. Do you have special software that you use? Is there something built-in?
Or, perhaps I should ask it a different way: If it were up to you, what would be the easiest way to type in Kannada? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:24, 9 January 2015 (UTC)


You have helped me the past, and I thought you may be able to help me again. I had once internationalized occupational health psychology. I had created a French-language site, and successfully added links between the French- and English-language sites. Others have added links connecting both sites to Chinese- and Slovenian-language Wikipedia pages on the same subject.

When I looked at the English and French pages today, I saw the English-French links had disappeared. I tried unsuccessfully to restore the connection between the English- and French-language OHP Wikipedia pages. The French-language entry I created is fr:Psychologie de la santé au travail. I am not sure if I did something wrong or if there is a software problem at Wikipedia. Since you were so helpful in the past when I encountered Wikipedia syntax problems, I wondered if you could help with this matter. Thanks. Iss246 (talk) 00:58, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

It looks like the difficulties are due to the Japanese Wikipedia, which has articles at w:ja:産業精神保健 and w:ja:企業内カウンセラー, and the Slovenian Wikipedia, which has articles at w:sl:Zdravstvena psihologija dela and w:sl:Duševno zdravje na delovnem mestu. You'll need to figure out what the 'matching' subjects are here. One-to-many interlanguage links aren't possible (yet). WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:34, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Thank you. Iss246 (talk) 15:14, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
I made the changes. There was confusion between occupational health psychology and occupational health and safety in a number of languages. Google translate was a big help. Iss246 (talk) 16:03, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Infobox photo discussion[edit]

Hi again. Happy New Year. Can you offer your opinion on which photo is better for the Infobox here? If you're not able to participate, just disregard this message; you don't have to message me. Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 01:08, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Pharmaceutical industry[edit]

I'm sure its quite self-serving to thank you for your comments on the article (since you mostly seemed to agree with me), but I would like to do so anyway simply because I appreciate that you took the time. Its always good to get input from thoughtful people. So please always stop by and comment on my work, whether you agree with what I have done or not. :>)> Formerly 98 (talk) 00:54, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Tech News: 2015-03[edit]

16:47, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Sir EE Pochin removal of expanded entry[edit]

Please explain why you removed this addition to a totally useless entry as is.

Please email me <redacted>, as wikipedia is incomprehensible to me81.174.172.68 (talk) 10:52, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

You've got mail. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:37, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Removing italics on an article title[edit]

Hi. Can you tell me how to remove the italics in an article's title? There's an article with an inappropriate italicized title, and I don't see the {{Italic title}} or {{DISPLAYTITLE: ''Article Title''}} markup anywhere in the edit field. Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 00:21, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

It's probably part of the infobox. What's the article? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:43, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
My Musical. It's an episode of a TV series, so it should be quoted, not italicized (though I don't think quotes are applied to article titles). Nightscream (talk) 00:51, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
Fixed. The problem was was "an" infobox rather than "the" infobox.  ;-) WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:50, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Describing authors[edit]

Having been told (through a GA review of course) to describe the author I am using, I have noticed that some editors remove the description. An example is (in Virgin birth of Jesus): "According to biblical scholar F. Dale Bruner ...", which has now been reduced to "According to F. Dale Bruner ...". Is there some guidance on this? It seems that some editors / readers like to see who this author is, and others do not. Myrvin (talk) 13:49, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

WP:INTEXT doesn't use that sort of context-setting clarification; on the other hand, INTEXT is mostly using examples that are pretty famous. Personally, I like it when it provides relevant information (e.g., "biblical scholar") and not when it seems like low-information puffery (e.g., "professor"). I assume that most readers aren't going to recognize the names of people we quote.
I'm not aware of any rule, and I don't believe that there is one. User:SlimVirgin will very likely know for certain whether one exists. WT:CITE might be the best place to discuss creating one, if one is wanted. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:52, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
Hi WAID, thanks for the ping. Myrvin, I'm not aware of any rule or advice. Some editors like to describe, while others link only. I would probably write "biblical scholar F. Dale Bruner."
WAID, I apologize for taking ages to respond to this, but I recently found some pings in my spam folder, including this one. Sarah (SV) (talk) 20:07, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks both. I've put the description back. Myrvin (talk) 21:08, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Tech News: 2015-04[edit]

18:13, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

List of medical articles?[edit]

Hi. Do you know where to find a list of articles with {{WPMED}} on their talk page? I should know this, but because you're here, I don't have to. :o) --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 10:05, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Actual list, or a category? Category:WikiProject Medicine articles's subcats for the one style, and Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine/Lists of pages/Articles for an outdated list. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:38, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
Or: go to Template:WikiProject Medicine, then click on "What links here" on the toolbar on the left and restrict to talkspace (like this). If you want a list in text format, then you'd probably need a script to pull all of them - the last time I looked, there were ~32,000 if I recall correctly. MastCell Talk 17:05, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks guys. I followed MastCell's link, clicked "Transclusion count" and got 32601, but I think that includes categories and templates. Selecting "Namespace: Talk" and hand-counting 500 at a time got 29711. I'm going to see what a random selection of 300 articles (1%) looks like. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 03:36, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
If you just want numbers, then WP:MEDA#Statistics should have them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:26, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
Yes. I've looked at that. (Nearly all your work, I think. Thank you!) 23,231 are C-class or below. I want to look at the articles themselves, to get a sense of what a research team assessing the reliability of our medical articles will be looking at. The wonderful User:Zhaofeng Li has kindly set up this thing for me. Running the query again generates another 300 random articles. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 08:05, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
If you're interested in assessments, then you may want to look at User talk:Nettrom#Stub predictions (whom I have owed a fuller answer since Christmas. One of these days...). WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:45, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

a small clarification[edit]

I think I understand what you're getting at in this edit summary. Since I don't see that the authors provide any actual "definition" of environmental exposure/s, I sort of imagine you're inferring what their *definition* seems to be based on their Fig. 1. There, they just provide a rather confusingly presented set of (unsourced/unexplained?) figures, where "obesity" gets inappropriately counted as an "environmental" exposure (arbitrarily, imo, grouped with "diet"). I agree it's contradictory, and that's why I first added the 'clarification needed' tag [14].

I'm posting here because I feel the article talk page thread is already rather cluttered, and I really feel we should be getting beyond discussion of this one particular source which, imo, is currently overweighted.

Best wishes as ever, (talk) 12:59, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

From my perspective, the urgent issue is making sure that the definition that is very obviously not used by the stats is also not be used to introduce those statistics.
The reason that diet and obesity are lumped together is because there's no good way to separate them. The primary dietary problem (about two-thirds, if memory serves) is overnutrition. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:50, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Best, (talk) 18:27, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
I apologize for the stress; I don't want to lose you. I agree that it would be better to have a different source. This one is not actually one of my favorites (not that my personal preference really matters, which is doubtless why it's still used relatively heavily in the article). WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:10, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks WAID :) Fyi, I really respect what you do. I feel sure that if we were able to talk the question over in person, the three of us, it'd all be so much easier and less confrontational. I think we'd all pretty much have been saying things like "actually, we really should be finding more recent sourcing for these key claims." But article talk pages do seem to be a trigger for confrontational debate. I'm glad you agree to looking for more recent reliable sourcing. I actually find it encouraging how following MEDRS indications here seem (to me at least) to eradicate the risk of unencyclopedic overstatement[unintentional pov perhaps?]. That's just my impression, fwiw... (talk) 20:52, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
I think you're right. Talk pages make it easy to lose sight of the bigger picture (readability, for example: plenty of debates about tiny details, but few about whether anyone understands what we've written).
My general preference for broad articles like Cancer is to use high-quality books, which have fewer of the 'just one study' problems that individual reviews do. But I'm not sure that's feasible for statistics like this. What do you think? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:36, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
Well, that's quite a broad question in itself...
In this case in point, I definitely feel we should be taking into consideration the (cautious) approach adopted in a major 'official' book like the WCR 2014.
Ideally, I think best practice in cases such as this, where we really need to wp:weight the evidence carefully to avoid unintentional pov[15] might go something like this:
1) identify/gather (and access) potential MEDRS (including key/'ideal' ones)
2) identify/examine key pertinent content, and try to 'understand' it (and where it's 'coming from')
3) collegially weigh the statements, in the spirit of WP:MEDASSESS
4) decide an order/strategy to present the reliably sourced information on the page in a suitably nuanced and reader-friendly way
5) going forward... make any further tweaks/revisions as appropriate, including incorporation of newly published content or talk-page observations/suggestions, etc.
Within that sort of approach, I think [MEDDATE aside] the 90–95% source would have been identified and subsequently rejected due to both: a) specific MEDRS concerns about the character of the 'review' and and the mismatch between the subject matter and the specialty of the journal; and b) because the pertinent data in the review is actually unsourced and therefore, from a MEDRS standpoint, WP:PRIMARY.
I realise that in *real-world* talk page discussions things tend to go a bit differently... (talk) 15:29, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Trivial detail: I'm not sure that the pertinent data is actually unsourced in that paper, but it wouldn't matter. Officially, reliable sources are not required to cite any sources at all.
A real response (other than "if we had a team of experts to spend six months doing those five steps, then things would already be very different"  ;-) will have to wait until I have more than five minutes. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:48, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
RE the "trivial" bit (which *would* matter, imo, if the paper met MEDASSESS in other respects).... WAID, you needn't waste your time on that... You could either: a) trust my working here; or b) decide you'd prefer to check for yourself (in which case, after consulting the notes I provided, I think you'd find the only thing you really needed to do would be to scan the main text to check I hadn't missed something...).
RE the *real* part... Hold your horses...if you don't mind me saying... Are you really sure about that? Is the process kicked off here (I hope) really more time-consuming (and energy-sapping...) than the confrontational stuff? That's not my experience hitherto (fwiw). (talk) 21:19, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
We have had to institute rules against editors deconstructing sources to decide whether the methodology is sound, etc. It's a haven for wikilawyers and POV pushers. "It's not reliable because there are no footnotes" (in the deep-link; the section the graph appears in has 13) is the last one in the official list. We get to kill it on grounds of MEDDATE, though, so we needn't worry about that.
Yes, a proper survey of the literature is enormously time-consuming. Depending on your tastes, it's more fun, though. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:31, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Certainly agree that a systematic review of the literature would be totally unfeasible. But that really isn't my intention at all... (And, fwiw, checking out that ref. 13 (PMID 18055160 [16]) does not enter into that particular question took me just a few minutes – certainly less time than to think/write this). Can we perhaps agree just to see how it might work in practice next week on this example question? After all, quite a lot of time and energy has already been spent there in the past... (without any very reliable outcome, imho) Best, (talk) 00:22, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Tech News: 2015-05[edit]

16:08, 26 January 2015 (UTC)