User talk:WhatamIdoing

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If you expected a reply on another page and didn't get it, then please feel free to remind me. My watchlist is over 2,000 pages at the moment, and I'm not keeping up with every page. You can also use the magic summoning tool if you remember to link my userpage in the same edit in which you sign the message.

Please add notes to the end of this page. I'll probably reply here unless you suggest another page for a reply. Thanks, WhatamIdoing (talk)



Kindness Barnstar Hires.png The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar
Just to say thank you for your kindness in creating those quote boxes. They're exactly what I was looking for, and it was very nice of you to make them. All the best, SlimVirgin (talk) 04:48, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
You're welcome I wish that I knew how to make the blockquotes re-size automatically, so it would adapt better to different display setups. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:16, 28 August 2014 (UTC)


Just to say thank you very much for the barnstar - it was a welcome surprise! Iztwoz (talk) 15:49, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:20, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

WP:ARBATC notice[edit]

Commons-emblem-notice.svg Please carefully read this information:

The Arbitration Committee has authorised discretionary sanctions to be used for pages regarding the English Wikipedia Manual of Style and article titles policy, a topic which you have edited. The Committee's decision is here.

Discretionary sanctions is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimize disruption to controversial topics. This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to the topic that do not adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, our standards of behavior, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. This message is to notify you sanctions are authorised for the topic you are editing. Before continuing to edit this topic, please familiarise yourself with the discretionary sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions.

This message is informational only and does not imply misconduct regarding your contributions to date.

While I share your concerns, expressed on its talk page, with the effects the wording of this template may have on newbie users, you're not one of them. It seems likely to me that this sort of thing is particularly contraindicated in WP:AT discussions, per the WP:ARBATC ArbCom decision and its followup.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  11:16, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd be happy to have you explain how a discussion about whether or not your "serious breed research" involves WP:Published materials or solely personal experience has anything to do with WP:Article titles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:54, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Because it's part of a long string of antagonism directed from you to me, relating to animal breed article titles. I could pick a different example, if you'd prefer, like the frivolous second ANI you filed and which was rejected. The point here isn't actually to renew the dispute, it's to say "let's stop personalizing this so much before it gets worse". I'm think that a multi-party dispute resolution might be in order, between you, me, Justlettersandnumbers and Montanabw. You and I, and Montanbw and I, have historically had plenty of non-antagonistic interaction, so I have high hopes. Not so sure about Justlettersandnumbers, but I assume good faith. I think there's a general mutual personality conflict happening, coupled with my overconfidence that moves wouldn't or shouldn't be controversial, an issue that's already been resolved at the first, valid ANI. (Which has actually changed my own views with regard to page moving; I'm now skeptical of direct moves as useful for anything but truly trivial operations, because it sows potential for pointless conflict, like trying to do business on the basis of verbal agreements instead of written contracts). NB: Just the act of giving you an ARBATC notice resets my own to the same date, so we're on the same playing field. Which will hopefully be less like the battle kind.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  00:31, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Um, could you give me a diff for the ANI report you're talking about? I'll help you out: Here's a complete list of every edit I've ever made to ANI. There have been just 87 of them ever, and only six in the last two years, none of which, so far as I can tell, have anything to do with either you or article titles.
Also, please go check all the recent discussions about titles for animals. I don't believe that you'll find my name in them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:39, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
I evidently was confusing you with Justlettersandnumbers and perhaps someone else, too. I apologize for involving you in this. While I didn't appreciate the tone in that WT:NOR discussion, you're right that it's not a WP:AT matter and that you've not been involved in the same disputes, and I agree with you on much else. I think I even cited something of yours recently as exemplary of how to approach WikiProject banners and their purpose. Sorry for what amounts to a false accusation.  :-(  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  09:02, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
No problem. We all make small mistakes like this. I'm glad you've got it sorted in your mind now.
Happy editing, WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:04, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:Harvard citation documentation[edit]

Hi, the problem with this edit is that Template:Harvard citation documentation is shared by eight templates: {{harv}}; {{harvnb}}; {{harvtxt}}; {{harvcol}}; {{harvcolnb}}; {{harvcoltxt}}; {{sfn}}; {{sfnp}}, and only a few of these produce Harvard citations; several have no parentheses at all. --Redrose64 (talk) 17:16, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Since some people know the one name and others know the other, I thought it would be helpful to have all the synonyms in place. I think it's a good idea to have some description of the purpose on each template, along with links to WP:CITE and (perhaps for all except the sfn templates) WP:HARV. It would be redundant if the individual templates already have such a statement. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:40, 24 September 2014 (UTC)


Hi. I'll be in San Francisco from 30th October (in the office for a meeting at 2:00) until the evening of Thursday 6th November. Would you like to meet up? (Email me if you're interested.) --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 06:15, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Nursing question[edit]

Thanks for the invite to WP:Medicne which I am aware of, however I tend to avoid wp articles related to work (for a range of reasons). As far as Morning care goes this reads as American terminology and I would hope is an outdated concept as we have /should have moved to individualised care providing care to patients/clients/service users at time which are right for them rather than sticking to institutionalised routines.— Rod talk 06:57, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! That's useful information for me. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:17, 26 September 2014 (UTC)


Mind the gap1.svg

We would love you to join the Gender Gap task force.

There you can coordinate with editors who are addressing the effect of the gender gap on women on Wikipedia – whether as article subjects, editors or readers. If you would like to help, please sign up or visit the talk page.

Happy editing, SlimVirgin (talk) 23:53, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

WikiProject Cleanup[edit]

Hi. About a year ago you made some suggestions on the talk page of wikiprojects cleanup. It seems most posts are old but the page is not yet listed as inactive. I want to help do clean ups. thanks, "Selene Scott (talk) 00:58, 30 September 2014 (UTC)"

Hi Selene Scott,
Sign-up lists aren't always maintained for WikiProjects. Just do your best, and post (like you just did) to let other people know that you're helping out, too. That WikiProject has been quiet for a long time, so it's nice to see someone posting there. By the way, if you make a pretty good effort, then you should feel free to remove the page from the list (and related tags from the article). If someone disagrees, then that person can always put it back. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:23, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
Okay thank you for bringing me up to date on that. "Selene Scott (talk) 04:42, 2 October 2014 (UTC)"

Thanks for link[edit]

Thank you for the requested moves-link. Hope it will help. If not, i might come back to you - ok?

All the best!!! Wikirictor (talk) 06:12, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, so I can't move the page for you. But if the RM process doesn't work, and you still think it should be moved, then come back and we'll find some help together. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:23, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Opinion needed[edit]

Waid, would you have time to offer an opinion at the West Africa Ebola virus outbreak article, #1 on the talk page "Possibly successful Ebola treatment with Lamivudine". It's not a long and involved dispute and I think it will only take a few minutes of your time, which I know must be short considering all you get done around this place. I continue to enjoy your intelligent posts here and there - you seem to have the ability to get right to the heart of the matter while many other editors flounder... Gandydancer (talk) 13:14, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Oh you little Miss Smarty Pants. Once again, thank you so much! That article is beginning to remind me of when I had 13 little goldendoodles running around my home. (Yes, that photo is my Golden Retarded with her 13 pups) :) Gandydancer (talk) 16:07, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Behaviour at WT:ORG and elsewhere[edit]

It has come to my attention that yesterday you left a message at Wikipedia talk:Notability asking for more input in the discussion I started at WT:ORG. I think you've been here long enough to know that the advertising of discussions is subject to the Wikipedia:Canvassing behavioural guideline. This requires that notices are transparent and non-partisan. The notice you left was clearly one-sided campaigning which is unacceptable under this guideline. I also note that you did not leave any indication at WT:ORG that you had advertised this discussion elsewhere, therefore going against the guideline's requirements to be transparent. Normally I would consider that trivial, but given the partisan nature of the notice I think it is reasonable to conclude that you were hoping that myself and others wouldn't notice what you were doing. Well unfortunately you were mistaken.

This incidence comes shortly after you responded to Unscintillating (talk · contribs) in a way which could be reasonably interpreted as trying to deter that person from commenting further. No user has the right to attempt to drive someone away from a talk page simply for holding a different opinion from others. I originally ignored this incident as I didn't want it to distract from the discussion, but Orderinchaos (talk · contribs) did challenge you over it. I too do not find the justification you gave for this comment at all convincing, and I don't think many other users would either.

I accept I have been highly critical of the current state of the guideline and how scrutiny of it has been handled in the past, but I believe in the circumstances such commentary is justified and I have avoided personalizing the issue whenever possible. However I was not expecting this pattern of behaviour, which seems to be to try and "win" all discussions related to WT:ORG even if that means violating established behavioural norms, which has become intolerable. I really don't want this to escalate further, so I kindly ask for three things from you. Firstly, please to do make any further comments at WT:ORG which say, or could be reasonably interpreted as saying, that further input from a contributor is not welcome. Secondly, if you notify users of a discussion, please ensure you observe WP:CANVASS in full in the future. Thirdly, I would like you to think about how this behaviour reflects on the community and the Wikimedia Foundation, given your status as a community liaison. CT Cooper · talk 14:17, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Lessee here, CANVAS used to recommend:
  • Limited: Yup, one single message.
  • Open: Yup, it's posted right there in public, on wiki, for anyone in the world to see.
  • Non-partisan: Yup, I posted it to as non-partisan an audience as possible.
  • Neutral: I told them that I held strong views on the subject, which has the advantage of making sure that they arrive with a skeptical eye. Bland notices like {{Please see}} are not as effective at getting people to respond as telling them a story.
  • Notified at the original discussion: This has never been required by CANVAS, especially when the message is at the obvious "parent" page instead of at user pages.
It might help you to know that I've been active at both of these pages for years, and therefore that most the regulars at WT:N already know what I think about this subject. I could have posted "Another discussion about whether small-town newspapers, all by themselves, prove notability for local small businesses", but that wouldn't have informed any passersby or newcomers that I have long-standing views on this subject.
Unscintillating and I have worked together many times. I'm sincerely disappointed that s/he decided to stop reading the discussion—i.e., had already decided to stop participating in the discussion—because he disliked a fact that anyone can verify by looking at AFDs over the last year (or five). As they say, you are entitled to your own opinions; you are not entitled to your own facts.
Like you, I would be happy to have the guideline improved to more accurately reflect actual practice. I would not, however, be happy to have it changed to make every other local business in a small town appear to qualify for an article on the English Wikipedia, when we know full well that these articles will all be deleted or merged away at AFD. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:58, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
WP:CANVASS also requires that the message itself be non-partisan by stating... "The following behaviors are regarded as characteristic of inappropriate notification (and may be seen as disruptive): ... Campaigning: Posting a notification of discussion that presents the topic in a non-neutral manner." It is quite obvious that the message was non-neutral and the guideline has been breached. The lack of transparency was a minor issue compared to this, but a note at WT:ORG wouldn't have hurt anyone, and may have avoided giving myself the perception that you were trying to turn around a discussion which wasn't going your way in a covert manner. The alleged knowledge of users at WT:N is irrelevant, and if anything only shows how unnecessary the posting of a partisan advertisement was.
I am aware of your history at WT:ORG and WT:N. The meaning of your message was clear to myself and others. This excuse that Unscintillating said (s)he had stopped reading isn't convincing, as that didn't mean that (s)he wouldn't comment further, and even if it did, that doesn't justify firing a parting shot.
I'm afraid you do not have a monopoly on facts in this discussion, which is one reason why there is disagreement among multiple editors in good standing, so repeatedly substituting the word "I" for "we" is not helpful. I do not accept your interpretation of events at AfD, and even if I did, they are arguably irrelevant for reasons I have already explained and to which you have not replied. Regardless, this discussion will continue until a consensus on any changes to WP:AUD is reached. And when that is finished, there are plenty more sections of the guideline which need review, so there is a long way to go yet. CT Cooper · talk 18:49, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Lynn Sibley[edit]

I'm a little rusty. With what little remains of your time, would you mind checking Lynn Sibley? It had notability concerns raised in 2012 and no substantial edits since. If not notable, does one WP:PROD or should it go to a discussion of some sort? Basie (talk) 04:12, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi Basie,
I'm not sure if she meets the criteria for an article. The nominal standards are listed at Wikipedia:Notability (academics). The list of activities make her sound fairly important, but does she fully meet the usual rules? I just don't know. There are a lot of publications at Google Scholar that mention her work (including many written by her), but I couldn't find a whole lot about her. But perhaps my search simply wasn't good enough.
My normal rule of thumb is to WP:PROD whenever possible, but this one might be better handled at WP:AFD because of the uncertainty. The process is almost exactly the same in both cases: Step one, go to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets and turn on Twinkle (about five items from the bottom of the first section). Step two, go to the article and choose either PROD or XFD from the new "TW" menu at the top of the article. Step three, fill in the little form, especially the reason. Step four, think about how much simpler this is in Twinkle compared to manually formatting half a dozen picky steps for AFD by hand.
Alternatively, if you think she probably does qualify for an article here, then you could just remove the notability tag from the top of the page and call it done. I really don't know how to predict the likelihood of deletion at AFD: 50–50? 60–40? Whatever you think is best will probably be fine. (Also, quick bias test: If that article were about a physician instead of a nurse, do you think it would be considered notable? If so, then it should be kept. Wikipedia's notability rules don't have any "doctors outrank nurses" nonsense.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:06, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! I went the AfD route. Going through the categories of ??? importance has been quite instructive. There are plenty of nurses with formidable resumes, but I'm sure not all of them rate an article. Basie (talk) 05:23, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Good luck. Whichever way it breaks, it will probably be a reasonable outcome.
I feel sorry for some of the borderline-notable/judgment-call BLPs. Some of them really want an article, but I wish our bar were noticeably higher, because good articles are uncommon, and vandals aren't. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:46, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the cookie :)[edit]

Seppi333 (Insert  | Maintained) 12:38, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Arab Health[edit]

Me again. The above article is fairly clearly a copyright violation ([comparison]) of [Zawya's story], probably via a press release from the parent organisation. Further, it's hardly neutral in tone. In my inexperience I'm still a little shaky on the best course: copypaste template? Blank and copyvio template? Try to engage the contributors somehow? Basie (talk) 04:24, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Given the account name of the person who added it, I think that {{subst:Copyvio}} is the way to go. I suspect that s/he has permission from the copyright holder to do this. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:46, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
As always, thanks so much for your help! Cheers, Basie (talk) 03:26, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:RFC list footer[edit]

Ambox warning blue.svgTemplate:RFC list footer has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. G. C. Hood (talk) 16:32, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

fyi discussion on public HIV testing article[edit]

At Talk:Public HIV testing in the United States#Broader topic of screening, there is ongoing discussion of re-focusing that article. You commented at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Public HIV testing in the United States (which closed "no consensus"), and might be interested in commenting at the new discussion. All AFD commenters are being contacted now. --doncram 22:19, 29 November 2014 (UTC)


Hello WAID, I hope that you are well. I would like to transfer some of the content on Bone (especially the 'function' section), to Wikiversity with a view to making it somewhat more encyclopedic. How might I go about this? I hope you are well, --Tom (LT) (talk) 22:41, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't think I've ever done it, but Help:Transwiki is supposed to have the answers. If you need to move an entire page there (and get rid of the one here), then {{Copy to Wikiversity}} is the right way to request help, but I don't think that would be a perfect match for this situation. Feel free to let me know how it's going. I'm busy in real life this weekend, but I'll look in when I can. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:20, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
Thanks WAID, I've copied it. --Tom (LT) (talk) 07:19, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

My experience debating a diet topic with Alexbrn[edit]

Hi there, WhatamIdoing. Not sure if we've crossed paths before, but I just noticed that you had disagreed with User:Alexbrn over the use of sources on the Feingold diet article—which I see Alexbrn has edited extensively to be quite short and focused primarily on criticisms. As a matter of fact, I've been facing the same issue on South Beach Diet.

Before going further, I should state I have a financial COI with the topic: earlier this year, the South Breach Diet brand contracted with me to identify errors and suggest improvements for the diet's Wikipedia entry. During this process I have always disclosed this clearly and confined myself to discussion pages. In the latest circumstances, Alexbrn has objected to my suggestions for improving two sections on very narrow terms. I have taken the issue to RfC (fair warning, it's pretty TLDR) and offered compromise on several points in hopes of finding a consensus. However, only Alexbrn has participated, and has become increasingly combative.

I fully expect Alexbrn will follow the ping I've included and disagree with my summary here. However, I think I'm quite sure I have the right of it, and now that I see there's an emerging pattern, I felt like I could add some perspective. And of course I need some help to resolve my issue. Interested in your thoughts, if any. Best, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 21:25, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) the pattern is that Alexbrn spends hours cleaning cruft out of WP put there by purveyors of woo. Among the quack-fighters he is by far one of the most reasonable. Act cluefully and bring great sources, concisely and nicely, and you can get somewhere with him; he asks real questions and he doesn't play games, unlike the worst in that bunch. His goal is to make a minimally reasonable article, then he is on to the next problem. You do have to understand, WWB Too, that you are making money off our work and our volunteer time, and you are trying to pump up what is a fad diet that yet other people make money from. To your credit you have been pretty calm but this post is disappointing. Please remember that you are essentially exploiting all of us for your personal gain. That is not pretty and you shouldn't expect anyone to be nice to you or to entertain requests to make articles yet more shiny for very long. Jytdog (talk) 21:56, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
Hi again, Jytdog. Believe me, I am very aware that volunteer Wikipedians are doing me a favor by considering my suggestions. I've been a Wikipedia volunteer myself since 2006, and I care about following WP:COI guidelines; avoiding direct edits on such topics means I need assistance from those uninvolved, which I can usually find. In this instance, the only respondent I have had lately is Alexbrn, and this is disappointing.
I'm also keenly aware that this article falls into a topic area where woo flourishes, and I am no purveyor of woo. I'm simply trying to make it a respectable encyclopedia article. Not shiny, but balanced and well-rounded. I don't see that as exploitive—I see my role as helping Wikipedia improve topics that languish without someone bringing attention to them. And no great surprise that South Beach Diet cares what Wikipedia has to say about it. WWB Too (Talk · COI) 22:12, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
Yes appreciate you following the COI guideline very much! and i don't mind people making money either. I do mind that you complain about the behavior of the only person who is even talking to you. :) i would not have said a damn thing if you had just asked WAID to help you instead of piling on a complaint about someone I view as a very good editor, who keeps working the trenches and keeps a good and civil attitude, even though he has to deal with loads of assholes (i am not counting you in that bunch, but you should take some time and explore his edits and interactions sometime) Jytdog (talk) 22:18, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
I follow your point about Alexbrn's contributions overall, although my experience has been different. One more piece of information to explain where I'm coming from: within this same time frame Alexbrn also joined an AfD on one of my articles to !vote delete. So I hope you can see why I'm feeling singled out here, not to mention frustrated by the lack of additional voices at Talk:SBD. Jytdog, I thought you made good points when you participated before. If either you or WAID are able to help bring the SBD dispute to a resolution, I'd be very grateful. WWB Too (Talk · COI) 22:35, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
I've got relatively little interest in diets. I've known Alex for years. He seems to believe that any treatment that is ineffective must be alternative, and vice versa, and he can be quite strident about it. He often does good work, but his commitment to his righteous battle against the evil charlatans lands him in an unfortunate number of overheated disputes, and we end up with discussions in which the only real outcome is that even more people are angry and frustrated and sick of Wikipedia.
Glancing over that RFC, you should not expect any responses from uninvolved editors. Once you've got such a long argument between two parties on the RFC, people are generally unwilling to share their opinions. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:38, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback about the RfC; I think you're probably right about how it will (or won't) progress from here. I actually did receive one more reply, however it was from the same perspective: an observation that some of the material I've offered may be useful, a concern that any de-emphasis of criticism in the introduction is a "POV slant favoring the diet", and no suggestions pointing to a way forward.
While this "commitment to ... righteous battle" undoubtedly keeps pseudo-scientific nonsense off Wikipedia, I'm still concerned about its potential for overcorrection. For example, this apparently prevailing view that writing about diet plans in a dispassionate manner—as if one was writing about a software company—is effectively NPOV. Surely a more moderate consensus must be possible. WWB Too (Talk · COI) 12:38, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
Hmm. I try to pick my battles, so I'll probably just leave one comment here. I gave two examples of POV concerns (and they were only examples - there are more), and de-emphasis of criticism in the introduction was the lesser of the two. To me, the suggestions I made for "a way forward" seem pretty clear; e.g. if I think you overemphasized something, that means I'm suggesting that you de-emphasize it.
TBH I wouldn't have minded further discussion on that article, as long as you give me a few days to respond, but your edits since my comment - your closing of the discussion, the forum shopping, and the general tone of your comments (which I have to describe as "PR-speak" for lack of a better term, even though that may be uncharitable) - have turned me off somewhat. Sunrise (talk) 19:15, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
This is a bit of a tangent, but hearing accusations of "PR-speak" bothers me, because in the last year or two, it appears that it has become a code phrase (among some editors, but probably not you!) for "expressed disagreement without cussing", which is kind of sad. We have such a problem with incivility that a little more "PR-speak", in the sense of polite, measured, calm messages might actually be welcome. I have once or twice asked people to re-write such alleged "PR-speak" in a way that maintains the facts but doesn't sound like a public relations piece. So far, nobody's been able to do it. I doubt that this has changed their opinions about it; it seems more a gut reaction either to professional communication, or (more likely) to the message itself.
("PR-speak" in the sense of filling a page with glittering generalities is, of course, a different problem.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:31, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, definitely no code phrases intended. :-) I really didn't know what other term to use. He follows the guidelines for COI editors, which I commend him for, and non-COI editors often speak this way as well (probably everyone does now and then). It bothers me perhaps a bit more than it should - maybe because I've studied the typical techniques used for persuasion, and they tend to jump out at me. In any case, I was referring to things like the difference in approach between his response to me in the RfC and his commentary here, which is much more negative. There are also issues of word choice, like the description of one's preferred opinion as "more moderate" (which might or might not be true, but also implies that other opinions are more extreme). I suppose I could rewrite the comment to better describe my meaning if you really wanted me to! Sunrise (talk) 20:04, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
There's no need to re-write anything. I don't know what the ideal term would be, either.
By the way, there's an editor whose username (translated) means "neutral editor". I love that name. It's emblematic of this type of problem, and the difficulty that some editors have with differentiating between "my" POV and a truly neutral POV. (Naturally, all right-thinking editors will agree that I'm the most neutral, moderate, unbiased editor that has ever been seen at Wikipedia. Face-wink.svg) WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:37, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Naturally. :-) Sunrise (talk) 04:03, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Nationality and National Identity[edit]

That was very clever of you to point out that the government census documents were actually referring to 'National Identity' as opposed to 'Nationality'. Have a look at the latest proposal on the James Clerk Maxwell talk page. The proposal would mean that we can list him as having a Scottish national identity without trampling on his British nationality. (talk) 08:04, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

To be fair to the people who live there, the Office of National Statistics is far more precise about their language than other government agencies (as one might expect from an agency whose job is to get it right). They routinely government encounter forms that ask them whether their "nationality" is Scottish, Welsh, English, etc. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:32, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Invitation Regarding Reliable Sources[edit]

Given your recent activity on the talk page of Verifiable, I am inviting you to participate in the discussion I started in regard to establishing a prima facia case for verifiable sources if it is has met and maintained the standards for inclusion in Google News.–GodBlessYou2 (talk) 20:16, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

non-breaking spaces and VE[edit]

Hey WAID, you pinged me at User_talk:Nettrom#Stub_predictions (I'm not sure why). But while I'm here ... is it possible to tell the difference between a space and an nbsp in VE? I can't see how. - Dank (push to talk) 23:04, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Dan, I don't think that it's possible to add a nbsp in VisualEditor. The last time I looked, which was months ago, if you do it from the keyboard (which is easy on a Mac), that it just replaces your nbsp with a regular space. I'm not sure how it handles the HTML code, but I haven't ever seen anything that looked different from a regular space, so I suspect that there is no visible difference at this time.
I pinged you at Nettrom's page because we had talked about that article assessment tool for MILHIST back in August or September. Since I've wrapped up my end, I wanted to let you know what I thought, in case you wanted to request a similar list for MILHIST. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:35, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Okay, thanks. On the nbsp ... holy crap. I had to enter one nbsp in an article yesterday (a FAC reviewer had requested it), so I typed   into the VE edit window and made the silly assumption that it would be fine. I just went back and looked, and   was what it gave me in the normal edit screen, so that it appeared to readers as  . I've fixed it in the normal editor. If you guys are concerned about what things cause push-back against VE, this would be one of them. (I missed this issue before because, per my copyediting disclaimer, nbsp's and all other hidden codes constitute one of those issues I leave for other people to worry about.) I'm about to get a new hat (but keep a lid on this until someone actually closes the damn discussion) ... that's going to tie me up for two months at least, but after that, maybe we could talk about getting Mediawiki's page renderer to deal with some nbsp issues so that the lack of nbsp-handling in VE becomes less of a big deal. - Dank (push to talk) 15:30, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
The need for nbsp's was officially reported approximately forever ago (July 2013). I haven't heard the devs mention it, so I expect that it will be a long time before we see any progress there. It may be stalled on design; if you've got ideas for what you want it to look like (e.g., when you edit a page that already contains a non-breaking space), then please let me know. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:40, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Sure thing, I'll give it some thought. - Dank (push to talk) 00:13, 16 December 2014 (UTC)


Beta whatsis? MLPainless (talk) 05:07, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I was assuming that you knew a bit about pack theory, and choosing to believe that you weren't trying to be quite so rude.  ;-)
Subdominant is usually (more or less) a synonym for beta, although other sources use it to refer collectively to beta and omega animals (i.e., everyone except alpha). So, roughly, "the leader and his pack of barking acolytes". WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:16, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Merry Merry[edit]

To you and yours


FWiW Bzuk (talk) 22:03, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Happy New Year WhatamIdoing![edit]

Happy New Year![edit]

Fuochi d'artificio.gif

Dear WhatamIdoing,
HAPPY NEW YEAR Hoping 2015 will be a great year for you! Thank you for your contributions!
From a fellow editor,
--FWiW Bzuk (talk)

This message promotes WikiLove. Originally created by Nahnah4 (see "invisible note").

Happy New Year WhatamIdoing![edit]

Happy New Year WhatamIdoing![edit]


Thanks for the clarification and the links. I've put them at my toolkit. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:53, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

You're welcome. As I said there, I've been working in this niche for a couple of years. It's one of our more complicated concepts, and there is no bright line. Real-world experts can and do disagree over classification sometimes, and we editors aren't likely to do any better than them. We can only do our best.
If those advice pages need improvements, then please be bold, or post on the talk pages. The more editors and the more subject areas that we look at them through, the better they'll end up. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:03, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Happy new year![edit]

Belated as I've been in a hammock by a river during the holidays, well and truly out of broadband range. Just wanted to say thanks for your work and assistance, and best wishes for 2015. Cheers, Basie (talk) 07:47, 6 January 2015 (UTC)


Hi, got your message here. I am not really active on Kannada Wikipedia. Mainly because I find it difficult to type in Kannada. I did use some tools but found that the translation was not very perfect. I am planning to start working on Kannada Wikipedia but most of the times my laziness triumphs :-) -sarvajna (talk) 09:04, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi sarvajna,
Thank you for this message. How do you type in Kannada? I assume that some people have a special keyboard for it. Do you have special software that you use? Is there something built-in?
Or, perhaps I should ask it a different way: If it were up to you, what would be the easiest way to type in Kannada? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:24, 9 January 2015 (UTC)


You have helped me the past, and I thought you may be able to help me again. I had once internationalized occupational health psychology. I had created a French-language site, and successfully added links between the French- and English-language sites. Others have added links connecting both sites to Chinese- and Slovenian-language Wikipedia pages on the same subject.

When I looked at the English and French pages today, I saw the English-French links had disappeared. I tried unsuccessfully to restore the connection between the English- and French-language OHP Wikipedia pages. The French-language entry I created is fr:Psychologie de la santé au travail. I am not sure if I did something wrong or if there is a software problem at Wikipedia. Since you were so helpful in the past when I encountered Wikipedia syntax problems, I wondered if you could help with this matter. Thanks. Iss246 (talk) 00:58, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

It looks like the difficulties are due to the Japanese Wikipedia, which has articles at w:ja:産業精神保健 and w:ja:企業内カウンセラー, and the Slovenian Wikipedia, which has articles at w:sl:Zdravstvena psihologija dela and w:sl:Duševno zdravje na delovnem mestu. You'll need to figure out what the 'matching' subjects are here. One-to-many interlanguage links aren't possible (yet). WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:34, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Thank you. Iss246 (talk) 15:14, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
I made the changes. There was confusion between occupational health psychology and occupational health and safety in a number of languages. Google translate was a big help. Iss246 (talk) 16:03, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Infobox photo discussion[edit]

Hi again. Happy New Year. Can you offer your opinion on which photo is better for the Infobox here? If you're not able to participate, just disregard this message; you don't have to message me. Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 01:08, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Pharmaceutical industry[edit]

I'm sure its quite self-serving to thank you for your comments on the article (since you mostly seemed to agree with me), but I would like to do so anyway simply because I appreciate that you took the time. Its always good to get input from thoughtful people. So please always stop by and comment on my work, whether you agree with what I have done or not. :>)> Formerly 98 (talk) 00:54, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Tech News: 2015-03[edit]

16:47, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Sir EE Pochin removal of expanded entry[edit]

Please explain why you removed this addition to a totally useless entry as is.

Please email me <redacted>, as wikipedia is incomprehensible to me81.174.172.68 (talk) 10:52, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

You've got mail. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:37, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Removing italics on an article title[edit]

Hi. Can you tell me how to remove the italics in an article's title? There's an article with an inappropriate italicized title, and I don't see the {{Italic title}} or {{DISPLAYTITLE: ''Article Title''}} markup anywhere in the edit field. Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 00:21, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

It's probably part of the infobox. What's the article? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:43, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
My Musical. It's an episode of a TV series, so it should be quoted, not italicized (though I don't think quotes are applied to article titles). Nightscream (talk) 00:51, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
Fixed. The problem was was "an" infobox rather than "the" infobox.  ;-) WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:50, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Describing authors[edit]

Having been told (through a GA review of course) to describe the author I am using, I have noticed that some editors remove the description. An example is (in Virgin birth of Jesus): "According to biblical scholar F. Dale Bruner ...", which has now been reduced to "According to F. Dale Bruner ...". Is there some guidance on this? It seems that some editors / readers like to see who this author is, and others do not. Myrvin (talk) 13:49, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

WP:INTEXT doesn't use that sort of context-setting clarification; on the other hand, INTEXT is mostly using examples that are pretty famous. Personally, I like it when it provides relevant information (e.g., "biblical scholar") and not when it seems like low-information puffery (e.g., "professor"). I assume that most readers aren't going to recognize the names of people we quote.
I'm not aware of any rule, and I don't believe that there is one. User:SlimVirgin will very likely know for certain whether one exists. WT:CITE might be the best place to discuss creating one, if one is wanted. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:52, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
Hi WAID, thanks for the ping. Myrvin, I'm not aware of any rule or advice. Some editors like to describe, while others link only. I would probably write "biblical scholar F. Dale Bruner."
WAID, I apologize for taking ages to respond to this, but I recently found some pings in my spam folder, including this one. Sarah (SV) (talk) 20:07, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks both. I've put the description back. Myrvin (talk) 21:08, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Tech News: 2015-04[edit]

18:13, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

List of medical articles?[edit]

Hi. Do you know where to find a list of articles with {{WPMED}} on their talk page? I should know this, but because you're here, I don't have to. :o) --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 10:05, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Actual list, or a category? Category:WikiProject Medicine articles's subcats for the one style, and Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine/Lists of pages/Articles for an outdated list. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:38, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
Or: go to Template:WikiProject Medicine, then click on "What links here" on the toolbar on the left and restrict to talkspace (like this). If you want a list in text format, then you'd probably need a script to pull all of them - the last time I looked, there were ~32,000 if I recall correctly. MastCell Talk 17:05, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks guys. I followed MastCell's link, clicked "Transclusion count" and got 32601, but I think that includes categories and templates. Selecting "Namespace: Talk" and hand-counting 500 at a time got 29711. I'm going to see what a random selection of 300 articles (1%) looks like. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 03:36, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
If you just want numbers, then WP:MEDA#Statistics should have them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:26, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
Yes. I've looked at that. (Nearly all your work, I think. Thank you!) 23,231 are C-class or below. I want to look at the articles themselves, to get a sense of what a research team assessing the reliability of our medical articles will be looking at. The wonderful User:Zhaofeng Li has kindly set up this thing for me. Running the query again generates another 300 random articles. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 08:05, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
If you're interested in assessments, then you may want to look at User talk:Nettrom#Stub predictions (whom I have owed a fuller answer since Christmas. One of these days...). WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:45, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

a small clarification[edit]

I think I understand what you're getting at in this edit summary. Since I don't see that the authors provide any actual "definition" of environmental exposure/s, I sort of imagine you're inferring what their *definition* seems to be based on their Fig. 1. There, they just provide a rather confusingly presented set of (unsourced/unexplained?) figures, where "obesity" gets inappropriately counted as an "environmental" exposure (arbitrarily, imo, grouped with "diet"). I agree it's contradictory, and that's why I first added the 'clarification needed' tag [14].

I'm posting here because I feel the article talk page thread is already rather cluttered, and I really feel we should be getting beyond discussion of this one particular source which, imo, is currently overweighted.

Best wishes as ever, (talk) 12:59, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

From my perspective, the urgent issue is making sure that the definition that is very obviously not used by the stats is also not be used to introduce those statistics.
The reason that diet and obesity are lumped together is because there's no good way to separate them. The primary dietary problem (about two-thirds, if memory serves) is overnutrition. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:50, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Best, (talk) 18:27, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
I apologize for the stress; I don't want to lose you. I agree that it would be better to have a different source. This one is not actually one of my favorites (not that my personal preference really matters, which is doubtless why it's still used relatively heavily in the article). WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:10, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks WAID :) Fyi, I really respect what you do. I feel sure that if we were able to talk the question over in person, the three of us, it'd all be so much easier and less confrontational. I think we'd all pretty much have been saying things like "actually, we really should be finding more recent sourcing for these key claims." But article talk pages do seem to be a trigger for confrontational debate. I'm glad you agree to looking for more recent reliable sourcing. I actually find it encouraging how following MEDRS indications here seem (to me at least) to eradicate the risk of unencyclopedic overstatement[unintentional pov perhaps?]. That's just my impression, fwiw... (talk) 20:52, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
I think you're right. Talk pages make it easy to lose sight of the bigger picture (readability, for example: plenty of debates about tiny details, but few about whether anyone understands what we've written).
My general preference for broad articles like Cancer is to use high-quality books, which have fewer of the 'just one study' problems that individual reviews do. But I'm not sure that's feasible for statistics like this. What do you think? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:36, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
Well, that's quite a broad question in itself...
In this case in point, I definitely feel we should be taking into consideration the (cautious) approach adopted in a major 'official' book like the WCR 2014.
Ideally, I think best practice in cases such as this, where we really need to wp:weight the evidence carefully to avoid unintentional pov[15] might go something like this:
1) identify/gather (and access) potential MEDRS (including key/'ideal' ones)
2) identify/examine key pertinent content, and try to 'understand' it (and where it's 'coming from')
3) collegially weigh the statements, in the spirit of WP:MEDASSESS
4) decide an order/strategy to present the reliably sourced information on the page in a suitably nuanced and reader-friendly way
5) going forward... make any further tweaks/revisions as appropriate, including incorporation of newly published content or talk-page observations/suggestions, etc.
Within that sort of approach, I think [MEDDATE aside] the 90–95% source would have been identified and subsequently rejected due to both: a) specific MEDRS concerns about the character of the 'review' and and the mismatch between the subject matter and the specialty of the journal; and b) because the pertinent data in the review is actually unsourced and therefore, from a MEDRS standpoint, WP:PRIMARY.
I realise that in *real-world* talk page discussions things tend to go a bit differently... (talk) 15:29, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Trivial detail: I'm not sure that the pertinent data is actually unsourced in that paper, but it wouldn't matter. Officially, reliable sources are not required to cite any sources at all.
A real response (other than "if we had a team of experts to spend six months doing those five steps, then things would already be very different"  ;-) will have to wait until I have more than five minutes. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:48, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
RE the "trivial" bit (which *would* matter, imo, if the paper met MEDASSESS in other respects).... WAID, you needn't waste your time on that... You could either: a) trust my working here; or b) decide you'd prefer to check for yourself (in which case, after consulting the notes I provided, I think you'd find the only thing you really needed to do would be to scan the main text to check I hadn't missed something...).
RE the *real* part... Hold your horses...if you don't mind me saying... Are you really sure about that? Is the process kicked off here (I hope) really more time-consuming (and energy-sapping...) than the confrontational stuff? That's not my experience hitherto (fwiw). (talk) 21:19, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
We have had to institute rules against editors deconstructing sources to decide whether the methodology is sound, etc. It's a haven for wikilawyers and POV pushers. "It's not reliable because there are no footnotes" (in the deep-link; the section the graph appears in has 13) is the last one in the official list. We get to kill it on grounds of MEDDATE, though, so we needn't worry about that.
Yes, a proper survey of the literature is enormously time-consuming. Depending on your tastes, it's more fun, though. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:31, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Certainly agree that a systematic review of the literature would be totally unfeasible. But that really isn't my intention at all... (And, fwiw, checking out that ref. 13 (PMID 18055160 [16]) does not enter into that particular question took me just a few minutes – certainly less time than to think/write this). Can we perhaps agree just to see how it might work in practice next week on this example question? After all, quite a lot of time and energy has already been spent there in the past... (without any very reliable outcome, imho) Best, (talk) 00:22, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Tech News: 2015-05[edit]

16:08, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Disease mongering page edit thanks[edit]

Dear User:WhatamIdoing. You are very welcome. Thank you for the acknowledgement. Yours, Wikiuser100 (talk) 19:08, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Tech News: 2015-06[edit]

16:31, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

VisualEditor News 2015—#1[edit]


Since the last newsletter, the Editing Team has fixed many bugs and worked on VisualEditor's appearance, the coming Citoid reference service, and support for languages with complex input requirements. Status reports are posted on Upcoming plans are posted at the VisualEditor roadmap.

The Wikimedia Foundation has named its top priorities for this quarter (January to March). The first priority is making VisualEditor ready for deployment by default to all new users and logged-out users at the remaining large Wikipedias. You can help identify these requirements. There will be weekly triage meetings which will be open to volunteers beginning Wednesday, 11 February 2015 at 12:00 (noon) PST (20:00 UTC). Tell Vice President of Engineering Damon Sicore, Product Manager James Forrester and other team members which bugs and features are most important to you. The decisions made at these meetings will determine what work is necessary for this quarter's goal of making VisualEditor ready for deployment to new users. The presence of volunteers who enjoy contributing MediaWiki code is particularly appreciated. Information about how to join the meeting will be posted at mw:Talk:VisualEditor/Portal shortly before the meeting begins. 

Due to some breaking changes in MobileFrontend and VisualEditor, VisualEditor was not working correctly on the mobile site for a couple of days in early January. The teams apologize for the problem.

Recent improvements[edit]

The new design for VisualEditor aligns with MediaWiki's Front-End Standards as led by the Design team. Several new versions of the OOjs UI library have also been released, and these also affect the appearance of VisualEditor and other MediaWiki software extensions. Most changes were minor, like changing the text size and the amount of white space in some windows. Buttons are consistently color-coded to indicate whether the action:

  • starts a new task, like opening the Save page dialog:  blue ,
  • takes a constructive action, like inserting a citation:  green ,
  • might remove or lose your work, like removing a link:  red , or
  • is neutral, like opening a link in a new browser window:  gray.

The TemplateData editor has been completely re-written to use a different design (T67815) based on the same OOjs UI system as VisualEditor (T73746). This change fixed a couple of existing bugs (T73077 and T73078) and improved usability.

Search and replace in long documents is now faster. It does not highlight every occurrence if there are more than 100 on-screen at once (T78234).

Editors at the Hebrew and Russian Wikipedias requested the ability to use VisualEditor in the "Article Incubator" or drafts namespace (T86688, T87027). If your community would like VisualEditor enabled on another namespace on your wiki, then you can file a request in Phabricator. Please include a link to a community discussion about the requested change.

Looking ahead[edit]

The Editing team will soon add auto-fill features for citations. The Citoid service takes a URL or DOI for a reliable source, and returns a pre-filled, pre-formatted bibliographic citation. After creating it, you will be able to change or add information to the citation, in the same way that you edit any other pre-existing citation in VisualEditor. Support for ISBNs, PMIDs, and other identifiers is planned. Later, editors will be able to contribute to the Citoid service's definitions for each website, to improve precision and reduce the need for manual corrections.

We will need editors to help test the new design of the special character inserter, especially if you speak Welsh, Breton, or another language that uses diacritics or special characters extensively. The new version should be available for testing next week. Please contact User:Whatamidoing (WMF) if you would like to be notified when the new version is available. After the special character tool is completed, VisualEditor will be deployed to all users at Phase 5 Wikipedias. This will affect about 50 mid-size and smaller Wikipedias, including Afrikaans, Azerbaijani, Breton, Kyrgyz, Macedonian, Mongolian, Tatar, and Welsh. The date for this change has not been determined.

Let's work together[edit]

Subscribe or unsubscribe at Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Newsletter. Translations are available through Meta. Thank you! Whatamidoing (WMF) 20:23, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Breastfeeding article[edit]

Thanks for your comments on the Breastfeeding article. I have long thought that it needed a complete overhaul as well but the task was so over-whelming I that it would be too much for me to attempt. I've worked with user:Jytdog before and I know that he is very good at organization and sourcing. Any help from you would be appreciated as well. Gandydancer (talk) 15:52, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

It does feel overwhelming, and it's a hot-button subject in the real world. I'll try to keep an eye on it for the next week or two. Until we can find a good source, I don't think we can do much except removing old or inappropriately detailed information. What do you think would be better for a source: a book or a journal article? Do you think we could find an academic book on breastfeeding, rather than a how-to book? I'd like something like this one, but it's 20 years old, and so much will have changed. This says that it's the 2014 version of the AHRQ report, but when I go to Amazon, the copyright page says it's from 2007. I suspect that the 2014 date is wrong (the date that this publisher decided to re-print it, rather than the date that it was actually published). (Also, it says that it's in the public domain, but Google Books has no preview.) 2007 is okay, but it's getting a bit old. This one? It seems to be a textbook for healthcare workers (and cites the 2007 AHRQ publication).
There ought to be a good source about pollutants in breast milk. I read something once about persistent organic pollutants being so concentrated near the Arctic Circle that there was a question about whether breastmilk was actually safer than formula for those babies. Would looking for that interest you? I don't think we want a scary list of every pollutant ever detected (or mis-detected) in breastmilk, but it might be interesting to know whether there are any particularly significant issues.
I might see if I can turn up a proper economic analysis of costs. Breastfeeding isn't "free": the mother needs to eat more, and it takes her time (time that could be spent working for pay or in home production). However, I understand that formula is much more expensive, even if breastfeeding isn't actually free. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:47, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks so much for your interest. Jytdog has not replied to my latest post and may not be interested but that's OK. But I will need to have your (as always) excellent advise and support. As I suppose is obvious, I am a strong breastfeeding advocate. Way back when I nursed my own two daughters NO women were nursing. The only ones that I know of from that time were my two sisters. Some hippies were starting to nurse, but I didn't know any hippies. :)
Re books, I would think that the more recent the better. (BTW, it was not at all lost on me how you used book info in your edits re pink ribbons.) What with the WHO and every other major body of science coming out so strongly on exclusive breastfeeding for at least the first six months and many reviews suggesting that many diseases are related to failure to breastfeed, I don't see why we would need a book for that info. On the other hand, when it comes to something like money saved, even though we could find an actual costs comparison only a book would mention the added expense of the price of disease as related to failure to breastfeed - not that they would - only as an example. A book may be the only RS for pollution chemicals in breast milk as well, though I would think that there are plenty of studies.
As for how to go about a makeover, I was thinking perhaps do a section at a time rather than try to do anything all at once. Some of the topics have info spread here and there willy-nilly and it could be gathered as one worked on a specific section. Right now I am finishing up an article but I would like to start working on this next. For now, Gandy
PMID 16277817 is the most recent review I found on how much extra food energy a breastfeeding mother needs. It's a decade old, and that is only one part of the costs.
Which section first? Weed first, or re-write from scratch? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:32, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
I have been thinking about your questions and suggestions and looking at the article, reading sources, etc. Today I noted that some editors from the med group have made numerous edits leaving the article apparently more in line with what is considered a good medical article. Most of the photos of mothers nursing are now gone. I liked all the photos and excuse my sentimentality, but for me they brought a feeling of "joy" to the article rather than make it a text book sort of way to give information. The lead has been filled with citation needed tags. The Endorsement section is now called outdated and as not expressing a world view which puzzles me but no entry was started on the talk page. And so on. I'm going to leave this article and let the medical group do what they want with it. Which makes me very sad... Gandydancer (talk) 17:49, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
It appears that the initial burst of zeal for MEDRS is being tempered with other virtues now.
I wonder if we could find images about different breastfeeding positions? From what I read, "cradle" is common, but "football" is recommended for mothers of twins, and there seem to be more than I can remember. As this is a compare-and-contrast topic, it would be suitable for a gallery. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:45, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
Hmmm, Well I guess that there's more than one way to skin a cat. :D I haven't checked, but from what I understand the cat has now been very well skinned. Thanks for stepping in and for setting up a proposal on the talk page. As for images, I would not much care for positions images. For one thing, as for me there are two positions: Sitting down or laying down. In my imagination of what I'd like our article to be is somewhere between a text book and an article that a woman or her partner, etc., might check to learn more about nursing. I'd leave detailed positions info, etc., to other sites such as La Leche how-to sites, info that a midwife or doc might hand out, etc. I did like the photos that were deleted because they were, I'd guess, more unique to something we'd have here than would be expected at a typical how-to site. They lifted one's mind to the differently dressed, colored, etc., women from around the world nursing their babies and toddlers. When the dust settles I may attempt to return a few. At any rate, I am sure that the article will turn out to be very good with your oversight. I have not had much time lately but hope to help out as much as I can. Gandydancer (talk) 04:35, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Hi there, say I pinged you on my talk page but only because I mentioned your name in a complement to you and I've read that we are supposed to never mention another editors name without letting them know about it - not sure if it's true. So no need to look and look on my overly-long page for something. Best, Gandy Gandydancer (talk) 01:58, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
That sounds like one of those made-up rules. I'm betting that it was made up (originally) by a person who found his lack of omniscience to be inconvenient. (Once "rules" get pronounced, it's very difficult to root them out.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:13, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Use of a BBC documentary as a RS[edit]

We are having a discussion on Talk:Lewis Carroll about whether a recent BBC documentary can be used as a RS. At the moment the article is frozen because of edit warring. One editor thinks that the BBC is OK on politics, but not when it is catering for the 'prurient interest' of its viewers. Also, there is an idea that we should wait until a 'respectable biography' quotes the programme. Another has deleted the material because of WP:undue, which seems to one of those catch-all reasons people use. I can find nothing on the use of TV documentaries as sources, even though they are used quite often. Have I missed something? Myrvin (talk) 10:09, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Generally speaking, a documentary that is broadcast by a reputable publisher (like the BBC), is treated the same as a book that is published by a reputable publisher (like Random House). I would definitely accept it as being reliable for the fact that an identified person holds a given viewpoint.
UNDUE is an important consideration whenever you have exactly one (1) source in the entire history of the planet that is making a claim, especially if that claim is an extraordinary or very serious accusation (in our culture). In this case, you have a serious (by current standards) accusation that might not have made sense in that person's culture. From what I found in my quick search, in that culture, 12 year olds were considered legally capable of regulating their sexual lives, and nude photos of young children were common and considered innocent. Consequently, it seems to me that their culture might have viewed taking a nude photo of a 14 year old much like we view taking a nude photo of an 18 year old: a reasonable person might be opposed to erotic or pornographic photos on other principles, but these are legally competent actors, rather than children being victimized.
My suggestion for a practical approach is to respect the WP:DEADLINE: You're probably better off waiting to see what the next few sources say. If this turns out to be relevant and appropriate for an encyclopedic biography, then it will be easier to add later, when there are multiple sources talking about it (including, ideally, some historians familiar with this aspect of the relevant culture). WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:50, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks WhatamIdoing. There is actually an entire section discussing the issue. This was nearly reduced to some words saying that such accusations were false. There is an awful lot of RSs that suggest that LC was probably/possibly a paedophile. The question is whether this BBC programme can be included as another source. Some editors are saying that this particular programme is not an RS - or not a 'reliable scholarly source'. Myrvin (talk) 18:12, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Well, it's not scholarly, but we don't actually have a scholars-only rule. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:33, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Quite! We don't seem to be getting anywhere on the Talk page, so maybe I should ask for a dispute resolution. Any ideas as to the best way to go? Myrvin (talk) 07:32, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
If your question is merely the narrow question of whether "X" source is reliable for "Y" statement, then WP:RSN is the best place. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:00, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks a lot. I found it after asking you. It's on there now. Myrvin (talk) 07:39, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Tech News: 2015-07[edit]

16:27, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

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Tech News: 2015-08[edit]

17:57, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Alternative cancer treatments[edit]

Hi WAID - I wrote a reply to your comment here, but I realized by the time I was done that it was probably too long and not sufficiently related to the topic. Rather than dropping it, I thought I would bring it here to see what you thought. :-) If it's too long, don't feel any pressure to respond! Response follows:

I do think those are reasonable points, although I think you're overestimating the time it takes in general for scientific research to come to conclusions. I've often seen statements like "mainstream medicine doesn't accept things immediately," and there is definitely some inertia there, but I think there's a tendency to overstate this. It's quite common for arguments to be presented, but for any number of valid reasons not be accepted as evidence (it's better to drop the term "proof" since we're always talking about degrees of evidence) until many years of further testing have gone by. For lipids in heart disease, I read this article when I was learning about the topic - the general point is that the question wasn't fully resolved until the late 1980s. It probably did take too long, and some of that was systemic, but for the most part it was for reasons that can't be clearly rejected given the state of knowledge that was available at the time. (This is medical scientists coming to the conclusion that lipids are causally related to heart disease, not clinicians making a judgement on treatments, though the two are sometimes the same people.) There is also the point that there should be some degree of inertia, because what appears to be proof may be an artefact, and public opinion requires that possibility to be minimized as far as possible.

A related factor is the speed at which biomedical science has progressed (even though at any point, most of the generally accepted information is still from many years ago) - e.g. one of the factors listed in that article was an emphasis on searching for a single cause, but even in 1990 we didn't appreciate the degree to which many diseases are multifactorial, and we didn't have very much reason to until the late 2000s when it became possible to run comparisons across many human genomes. But the point is that these gaps are always expected. It comes up in history of science when people refer to the 50-year gap between Wegener's proposal and acceptance of continental drift. It's often described as a tale of a brilliant and heroic individual working without support outside the mainstream (because that makes a better story), but in reality there was very little reason to believe it as Wegener first proposed. Rather, the evidence slowly accumulated, with IIRC the biggest pieces not coming to light until the decade or so before general acceptance. There are cases where new information is accepted immediately, but these are typically for questions that are chemically and/or analytically simpler, like the structure of DNA.

Anyways, I would go back to the point by saying while the Catch-22 statement is designed for "cleverness" more than accuracy, we can make a general statement that alternative medicines don't meet the required standards of evidence for general acceptance (what the standards should be specifically for approved treatments can be debated, but those are ultimately set by the public's tolerance for mistakes in this regard, which is very low). That doesn't mean that alternative medicine has nothing of value, but it does mean that we don't really know which ones they might be. Part of the problem is that we can't jump from agreeing that some alternative treatments may be of value to saying that any specific treatment might have value, because otherwise we would already have the amount of evidence necessary. That's how I would describe the Catch-22 in question. Sunrise (talk) 09:27, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree that there should be some inertia. However, the time for the science (alone) is greater than the median survival for a person with invasive cancer, and (separately) so is the "inertia". You could literally die of breast cancer three or four times before something goes from "experimental" to "accepted".
But the fact remains that science not what makes something stop being "alternative" and start being "mainstream", or the other way around. Think about Lamaze childbirth techniques: It was definitely alternative medicine originally. Is it truly "mainstream" now? The answer probably depends on where you live. In California, it's probably mainstream. In China, it's probably some crunchy-granola-hippie idea. How about homebirth? That's mainstream in the Netherlands, and alternative medicine in most of the U.S. Science is the same no matter what continent you're standing on. So why isn't it exactly the same classification everywhere? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:53, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
The length of time is Nature's fault for being so complicated. :-) I completely agree that it takes too long for treatments to reach acceptance, and I think this is a general view. I guess I'm making two main points: that for facts that were proposed long before acceptance, typically the reasons for acceptance actually only showed up later; and for newer facts that seem correct but haven't yet been accepted, then assuming correctness, typically there are still reasonable doubts that haven't yet been resolved.
For the second part, I would make sure to distinguish between mainstream medicine and mainstream science. Of course, neither are immune to geographical differences (e.g. scientific cooperation can be hindered by political disputes), but I agree that medicine probably differs more. Acceptance in medicine is intended to approximate scientific acceptance, although it does so imperfectly - and once we agree that a treatment can be accepted into mainstream medicine without being supported by mainstream science, and vice versa, then that explains the country-specific differences. The effectiveness of treatments is a question of science, but we can choose to define "alternative medicine" based on either medical acceptance or scientific acceptance. I would say that both approaches are valid (we can define words any way we like as long as we're understood!), although consensus at Alternative medicine has been to prefer the latter. Sunrise (talk) 08:19, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
I don't actually think that it takes too long for treatments to become accepted. I just recognize that if you're looking at a six-year median survival, that a 12-year-long drug development process isn't going to work for you. I also recognize that most people facing death, even death half a dozen years from now, often feel pretty desperate.
Medicine is mostly not about science. This isn't a criticism of medicine; this is actually praise. It should be mostly not about science, just like going to a good restaurant should be about something more than avoiding malnutrition. Technical efficacy isn't the only, or even the main, consideration. To stick with the oncology theme, a robot can tell you what the most efficacious treatment is for a given cancer. However, a good physician is going to consider other factors, especially the patient's personal values. How Gawande helped Jewell Douglass wasn't science. It's better than science. It's not about efficacy. It's about humans. It was real medicine.
By the way, I don't think you have a consensus at the altmed article that scientific efficacy is all that matters. I think you just have a couple of loud voices who hold that POV. The article itself correctly presents the fact that there are multiple definitions, and correctly presents the claim that the "once it's proven to work, it magically becomes mainstream" is only one minority POV. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:22, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
There definitely isn't a consensus that it's all that matters, of course! Both of the primary definitions are presented as defining characteristics. The major discussion issue was always about which one should be the lead sentence, but in either case both statements would still remain in the lead paragraph.
Anyways, what I was trying to get at is that you seem to be approaching this from the assumption that conventional/alternative medicine is "correctly" defined in terms of medical acceptance, while the other option is also a valid one. For example, in the data-theory distinction you make below, there's no contradiction after you put in "with respect to definition A" and "with respect to definition B" in the appropriate places. Anyways, I'll make this my last reply here unless you specifically request further comments. :-) Sunrise (talk) 06:24, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
Sunrise, your "with respect to definition A" approach would work if you were writing an academic paper, but in the real world, it doesn't work. Homebirth "just is" alternative in the US, and it "just is" conventional in the Netherlands. And that useless knee surgery "just is" conventional everywhere. People don't reason these things out from basic principles. They just learn from their culture what is conventional in medicine exactly like they learn from their culture what is conventional for food and clothing.
Americans "just know" that homebirth is alternative, in the same way that they "just know" that only the bride is supposed to wear a white dress at a wedding. If you go to Americans who subscribe to the "if it works, then it can't be alternative" idea, and you ask them whether homebirth is alternative, they're going to tell you that of course it's alternative. If you ask them why, they will tell you – even if (or especially if) they know nothing at all about the subject – that obviously there must be some solid scientific objection to its safety or efficacy, because it couldn't possibly be that a millenias-old conventional practice was relegated to "alternative" status for non-scientific reasons. It's like talking to committed theists: they "just know" that God exists, and any evidence to the contrary is fatally flawed by definition. Literally, by definition, the people subscribing to that definition "just know" that their spotless Science would never let a reasonable medical practice get called "alternative" over something so vulgar as money or so messy as popular opinion. They "just know" (from their cultural upbringing) that homebirth is alternative and therefore, by definition there must be something scientifically suspect with it. They don't want to deal with the cognitive dissonance of realizing that a medical practice could be scientifically sound and also alternative in their own culture.
And if you go to the Netherlands, and you ask the same type of people, they'll tell you – even if they are equally ignorant – that of course it's conventional, and the reason is of course because it must have been scientifically proven to be perfectly good.
I think there's enough data to show that these classifications aren't made by saying "Yes, good evidence, so that one's conventional" or "Weak evidence, so we'll call that one alternative". These classifications are made by cultures, not by computers, which means that they take into account a wide variety of types of information. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:24, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
(Responding to the ping) The thing is, I interpret the phrase "just is" as carrying the background assumption "this is the correct definition." My suggestion to separate the two definitions isn't meant to be for the real world - it's to increase the clarity of our own discussion. I'm reminded of this - e.g. "I would just like to point out—in a mournful sort of way—that Albert and Barry seem to agree on virtually every question of what is actually going on inside the forest, and yet it doesn't seem to generate any feeling of agreement." That said, I'm willing to listen if I'm misunderstanding! Sunrise (talk) 04:35, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
I love the link! Thank you so much for sharing it.
I don't think that people are starting off with a definition. I think that people are repeating what they learned about each thing. Here's an example: 6 (the symbol) is a number, right? And H is a letter. If I said that H was a number, or that 6 was a letter, you would tell me that I was wrong. How do you know this? It's not because you learned the definitions and then went forth to classify each symbol. Instead, you learned the symbols (probably around age 4 or 5), and later added the definitions to your knowledge.
I think that people learn that herbal extracts from the "natural food store" are "alternative" or that hospital births are "conventional" in the same way that children learn that 6 is a number rather than a letter (by learning the classifications one at a time, in isolation), and only later formulating a definition that allows them to generalize.
And in terms of Wikipedia, what the real world (especially the real-English-speaking-world) says is really the only thing that matters. If the real world says that ____ is "alternative", then it is, even if that classification does not match any known definition of the word. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:32, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) WAID I often appreciate your even keeled, generous wisdom, but that last sentence ("he article itself correctly presents the fact that there are multiple definitions, and correctly presents the claim that the "once it's proven to work, it magically becomes mainstream" is only one minority POV.") made me cringe. Let me ask you the active question - where do you draw the "legitimacy" line between: on the one extreme, really deluded and often evil/exploitative quackery that takes advantage of desperate people's pain and fear, and at the other, what is rigorous science-based medicine? Jytdog (talk) 20:11, 20 February 2015 (UTC) (note, added quote of last sentence since this comment moved away from it Jytdog (talk) 04:00, 22 February 2015 (UTC))

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I see that question as being orthogonal to the question of whether it's conventional or not.

Midwife-attended homebirth works. There's good evidence behind it (for normal-risk, uncomplicated pregnancies). That's "rigorous science-based medicine", right? But it's "alternative" in the US.

Arthroscopic knee surgery does not work. There's solid evidence against it. In some situations, it might even rise to "tak[ing] advantage of desperate people's pain and fear". But it's "conventional" around the world.

If it's true that proven efficacy is all that's required to make something be accepted as conventional medicine, then why is planned homebirth so rare in the US? Why is it practically illegal in a few U.S. states? And why is arthroscopic knee surgery still conventional?

Here's an easier way to look at it:

Homebirth is scientifically proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, to work, and it's considered "alternative". Arthroscopic knee surgery is scientifically proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, to not work, and it's "conventional".
If it works, then it's "conventional". If it doesn't, then it's "alternative".

Different people take different approaches, but when my data and my theory conflict, I usually find that it's my theory that needs to be changed. My explanation for the discrepancy between the data (e.g., that homebirth is altmed and knee surgery is conventional, despite the scientific evidence going the other way) and the theory (i.e., that anything proven efficacious is automatically conventional) is that "scientific evidence" is not the sole defining element in whether something is considered conventional or alternative. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:44, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Your example of arthroscopic knee surgery is illustrative of why I get into arguments with acupuncture proponents: evidence that insurance companies pay for things is not evidence that those things have any merit. It would be nice if the two aligned in some sensible fashion, but they don't. I consider the discussion of whether a treatment is common and the discussion of whether a treatment is supported by evidence as being wholly unrelated.—Kww(talk) 23:15, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
True. The question here, though, isn't how to figure out whether something works, but how to tell whether it's "conventional" or "alternative". Even if the insurance companies stop paying for this knee surgery, it's never going to be "alternative". It'll just move from "accepted conventional" to "rejected conventional". WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:20, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
Mmm too many sloppy anecdotes and bad data here. arthrsocopic knee surgery has been shown to be ineffective for osteoarthritis, and medicare stopped paying for that in 2004. the peak year of the procedure for OA per se was 2001 and it has declined ever since, per this. clincial trials on arthroscopy for meniscal tears in the setting of OA emerged much later; the impact of those trials hasn't been published yet, but the world is not entirely irrational and one can expect that use of arthrosocopic surgery for that will decline, with the data.Jytdog (talk) 00:21, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
Sure, it's declined somewhat, more than a decade later. Whether that's due more to the embarrassing media attention or more to "pure science" is an open question.
The evidence for homebirth's efficacy (actually, efficacy has never been a question; it's only been a question of safety for the last century) has been around even longer. When do you predict that will be considered "conventional" in the US? Maybe half a century from now? Maybe never? And if "scientific evidence that it works" is all that matters, then why isn't it considered conventional now? WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:20, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
I have been thinking about the home-birth thing and the American medical establishment. We definitely have that here (medical colleges >> doctors, whose entry into practice is controlled in numbers and qualification by the various colleges/boards; insurance companies, FDA, drug/device/diagnostic companies - together they form an Establishment (yes, like the 60's the Man). I wonder when the Establishment got so much power here... I think it was maybe late 1940's into the 50's but I am ignorant of the history. But my sense is that through some tremendous effort they really sold the American public on themselves as really The Best Way. Much of that was great as it was through It that a lot of great public health stuff was promulgated but also a lot of bullshit (my European friends mock what is my obsession with cleanliness, in their eyes). But stuff like home birth was really pushed out. It will take a lot of time/work before home birth becomes conventional... just like it will take time for best practices to work their way though the Establishment about arthroscopic surgery for OA. The information about lack of efficacy is already in all the treatment guidelines.. it will probably take a generation of orthopedic surgeons and sales people for it to really go away.... anyway. Jytdog (talk) 03:08, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
Personally, I doubt that homebirth in the US will become "conventional" again until board-certified obstetricians themselves routinely offer it, and because of the basic economics (you can deal with several women in labor at once in a hospital, but really only one at a time for homebirth), I doubt that will ever happen. There seem to be multiple stories about how it became "alternative". Some stories emphasize things like improvements in surgical techniques (like obstetricians washing their hands); others emphasize paternalism (of course the "modern men of science" know better than the "old wives") and greed (for the midwives' rather lucrative practices); a few emphasize privacy (the mother might prefer not to give birth while her other children are within earshot). I doubt that there's a single true story, but the result is that about a century ago, normal births happened at home in the US, and now it is a very unusual choice.
Basically, though, you seem agree with me: "scientific evidence" is not the sole defining element in whether something is considered conventional or alternative. What actually makes the ultimate difference must (therefore) be something else. I think that "something else" is more like public acceptance, especially as manifested by what you call "the Establishment" (e.g., ACOG's views on normal practice or what various laws declare to be acceptable). This public acceptance is (in our culture) heavily influenced by declarations that "science says this works" (which is why quacks talk so much about physics), but scientific evidence alone is neither sufficient (ever) nor strictly necessary in all cases (unfortunately). WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:24, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
I do understand what you are driving at, WAID and there is something useful in it... and I appreciate that you took the risk of making a positive formulation (something like "public acceptance"). It is interesting. I just looked at MEDMOS at the "treatment" section under "diseases/conditions" and it says "Treatment or Management: This might include any type of currently used treatment, such as diet, exercise, medication, palliative care, physical therapy, psychotherapy, self care, surgery, watchful waiting, and many other possibilities. Consider discussing treatments in a plausible order in which they might be tried, or discussing the most common treatments first. Avoid experimental/speculative treatments and preventive measures (e.g., prophylactic vaccines or infection-avoidance techniques). As per the policy of WP:NOTHOW, Wikipedia articles should not be written in a "how-to" style, but this does not prevent adding official guidelines of treatments or managements if these can be presented in an objective manner and with medically reliable sources.". Here is the real kicker part. What are really the best sources, to tell us what is "conventional"/"publicly accepted"? I don't think those are necessarily any kind of journal articles as those are going to be evidence-based evaluations, generally.... what do you think? What do you use? and on the flip side, what kind of source would you rely on, to define something as not-conventional (or "alternative")? And finally, would you consider dietary supplements (for all the crazy things people take them for) to be "conventional" medicine? lots of questions!! but they are all real questions - i am interested in how you think about this and about how you implement it when you edit.  :) Jytdog (talk) 04:00, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
I think that, for all except the most complicated cases, you accurately determine whether something is "conventional" by asking your favorite web search engine whether ____ is alternative medicine. You can also apply a simpler regulatory test: Is this intervention legally performed by (or under the supervision of) licensed physicians? Is the substance licensed as a drug (or biologic) by the drug regulatory agencies? That test helps sort out the difference between "alternative medicine" and "bad medicine" for ineffective treatments. Neither of these tests require any information about scientific evidence. In terms of cite-able sources, I would probably start with the NCCAM website (which lists many altmed ideas) or a book. There are probably dozens of "Encyclopedias of Alternative Medicine" or similar broad reference works.
I don't think that the broad and diverse class of dietary supplements can be accurately labeled as either "alternative" or "conventional". Echinacea extract is a dietary supplement, and taking that (for any reason) is "alternative" (and has been approximately since the invention of sulfa drugs). Potassium pills are also a dietary supplement, and taking them to treat mild hypokalemia (e.g., because you're taking a loop diuretic) is completely "conventional". They'll have to be taken individually. Even when you look only at herbs, it's hard to justify a single label for all of them. I don't think it would be smart to drive a car after drinking valerian tea, for example.
I've just started Wikipedia:Alternative medicine, and I hope that you and User:Sunrise will both help expand it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:32, 22 February 2015 (UTC)


Thank you for the suggestions about the '"Wiki Music Project."' Thank you for the suggestions about the '"Wiki Music Project."' Lubbock is a fairly large city in Texas, and has a number of shows to choose from almost every night. I write for the ezine "The Record" and stay busy writing for it. Problems with grammar and spelling bother me too. I can also look up extra sources for my articles through Wikipedia. Thanks again for your suggestion. I think my biggest challenge is going to be maintaining a NPOV.Lbhiggin (talk) 03:11, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

You're welcome. I hope that you find a happy, productive WP:WikiProject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:01, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Tech News: 2015-09[edit]

16:29, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Invitation to Participate in a WikiProject Study[edit]

Hello WhatamIdoing,

We’d like to invite you to participate in a study that aims to explore how WikiProject members coordinate activities of distributed group members to complete project goals. We are specifically seeking to talk to people who have been active in at least one WikiProject in their time in Wikipedia. Compensation will be provided to each participant in the form of a $10 Amazon gift card.

The purpose of this study is to better understanding the coordination practices of Wikipedians active within WikiProjects, and to explore the potential for tool-mediated coordination to improve those practices. Interviews will be semi-structured, and should last between 45-60 minutes. If you decide to participate, we will schedule an appointment for the online chat session. During the appointment you will be asked some basic questions about your experience interacting in WikiProjects, how that process has worked for you in the past and what ideas you might have to improve the future.

You must be over 18 years old, speak English, and you must currently be or have been at one time an active member of a WikiProject. The interview can be conducted over an audio chatting channel such as Skype or Google Hangouts, or via an instant messaging client. If you have questions about the research or are interested in participating, please contact Michael Gilbert at (206) 354-3741 or by email at

We cannot guarantee the confidentiality of information sent by email.

The link to the relevant research page is m:Research:Means_and_methods_of_coordination_in_WikiProjects

Ryzhou (talk) 02:17, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Tech News: 2015-10[edit]

16:41, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Tech News: 2015-11[edit]

15:19, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Badge of shame[edit]

Hi there! I know this is reaching way, WAY back, but in light of this you might be interested in participating in Template talk:POV#Badge of shame. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:23, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Tech News: 2015-12[edit]

15:15, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Tech News: 2015-13[edit]

15:10, 23 March 2015 (UTC)