Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)

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The technical section of the village pump is used to discuss technical issues about Wikipedia. Bugs and feature requests should be made at Bugzilla (see how to report a bug). Bugs with security implications should be reported to or filed under the "Security" product in Bugzilla.

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Abandonment of Reflinks [edit]

  • There is no reason to disable Reflinks [1] and other useful tools just to make people come here and sign a petition. I believe community consensus would be to keep those tools working. Be rather hypocritical to force your will upon others, in order to make them protest someone else doing the same thing here. Dream Focus 00:20, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
@Dream Focus: It appears that Dispenser's tools were blocked by the WMF, not taken offline to encourage petition signing. GoingBatty (talk) 00:52, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
First they just have the protest encouragement there, then suddenly they are blocked. No reason to block them though, not with such popular tools being used for years now. Just happened the moment they tried protesting. I find it unlikely it can be unrelated. Dream Focus 00:57, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
You may think it unlikely, but it is unrelated. It came to the attention of the admins that Dispenser was violating the Labs Terms of use, in particular in having and running non-free software. He was asked to remove such software and refused, hence the block and the message GoingBatty linked. Some of the conversation leading up to this situation is in the #wikimedia-labs logs starting around timestamp 19:42:50. Anomie 01:58, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
It is indeed unrelated. — Dispenser 03:34, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
So much for IAR. I rely heavily on Reflinks. Too bad that WMF didn't consider the value of these tools to the project before simply switching them off. - MrX 15:43, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
  • This WMF action also includes the shut down of two of Dispenser's tools used on the DYK nomination templates: Dab links and Checklinks. — Maile (talk) 16:13, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
    • WMF's response reminds me of Dogma - TP 01:03, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
      • Reply - Bring back Reflinks! That is all! --Jax 0677 (talk) 06:56, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
      • Reply Bring back Reflinks. It is an invaluable tool and I relied on it. It is too onerous to convert footnotes from bare URLs manually and the number of those in the pages I work on are piling up at a great rate as users are too lazy to use the Wiki cite templates. --P123ct1 (talk) 08:36, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Missing this tool: I am missing this tool. This has been a very useful one. (after reading this notice) --TitoDutta 17:11, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
  • @Ser Amantio di Nicolao, Jax 0677, P123ct1, Titodutta, Maile66: if you read up you'll see that the tool shutdown has nothing to do with the superprotect right or Dispenser's opinion on it; he shut them down in a fit of pique after he was banned from labs, quite rightfully, for hosting non-free software in direct violation of the labs terms of use. Ironholds (talk) 04:36, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
  • @Ironholds: thank you. Looks like I did not read the main post here. The tool is a useful one and I was missing it and got this thread's link in a notice (linked in my last post, just above). Why are they linking this thread, if it is unrelated? (posted using android) --TitoDutta 04:49, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
    I don't know; that's a question for Dispenser. I'd guess either a continuation of said fit of pique, or a feeling that superprotect and his banning are linked in consisting of "occasions on which the WMF has said no to something" (which I don't think is a decent comparison, since in the case of the banning, what they said no to was 'terms of use violations', but..) Ironholds (talk) 11:38, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Ironholds, well however and why ever things happened, the fact remains that Dispenser had tools that are needed. If Dispenser is not providing these at this time, perhaps WMF can provide replacements:
1) Reflinks
2) Dablinks
3) Dabsolver
4) Webcheck links
5) Watcher
— Maile (talk) 18:29, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
No idea; I don't make WMF product decisions. These tools are widely used, yes (I use them); I think the answer is for them to be resurrected by someone not interested in violating the site's TOU. Ironholds (talk) 02:00, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
@Ironholds: Or perhaps it isn't Dispenser who doesn't know why he is angry but the WMF. Perhaps it is superprotect and NOT his WMF Labs ban that has spurred this action. Afterall, it's not like it wasn't a piece of cake for him to set up his own web hosting. Seems more logical that he would protest something he can't control, like superprotect, than something that is quite easy for him to overcome.--v/r - TP 18:32, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Or perhaps he refuses to change his behaviour and so the two are roughly analogous. It's kind of irrelevant; we're just hypothesising here. The fact that his ban is complained about in BIG LETTERS and superprotect in small letters is indicative, however. Ironholds (talk) 02:00, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I thought the superprotect message was already there, and he added the message in big letters when he was banned from toolserver. (I thought it was in big letters to differentiate it as more directly relevant, though this doesn't seem to be very successful.) Anyway, this is kind of off topic. —PC-XT+ 05:18, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I've just hacked together a non-VE client to the Citoid server which hopefully does a similar job to reflink. Just add importScript('User:Salix alba/Citoid.js'); to your Special:MyPage/skin.js. It uses mw:citoid service and borrows heavily from the VE interface User:Mvolz/veCiteFromURL. It works by adding a toolbox link, click on this and you get a dialog popup where you can enter a url, submit it to the server and get a citation template as a result. See User:Salix alba/Citoid for details.

Its very much an pre-alpha release, virtually untested but worked for the first two urls I tried. Very much open source, people are encouraged to clone adapt to their own needs.--Salix alba (talk): 16:41, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Congratulations, you've just done a hell of a lot more for Wikipedia content than the WMF has done in months. KonveyorBelt
Credit should really go to @Mvolz: who been working on Citoid as part of Wikimedia's mw:FOSS Outreach Program for Women.--Salix alba (talk): 22:10, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Sadly, Marielle's summer program has officially ended. The Editing team will be supporting the rest of the work. I've used it in my volunteer account for VisualEditor; see this diff for how to enable it in your own account. The important thing to note is that this is still at the strictly experimental stage. It is unlikely to corrupt any pages (it shouldn't save anything on its own), but the service could fall over at any moment. If that happens, it should restart on its own, but it is really not ready for high-volume use. Feel free to leave feedback at Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Feedback even if you're using it in the wikitext editor; Salix alba and I both frequently look in at that page.
Once it is stable, the ultimate plan is to make it available for both VisualEditor and the wikitext editor at all WMF projects. Outside of the biggest, very few of them have any citation filling scripts at the moment, so this will be a big improvement in the end. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 04:36, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
@Whatamidoing (WMF): "The Editing team will be supporting the rest of the work." What does this mean? Do you have project milestones, dates, etc.? --NeilN talk to me 04:48, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
That depends, NeilN: Do you believe timelines written by people whose job titles include the word "manager" or "director"? Face-wink.svg If so, then it will allegedly be deployed (in at least a minimal fashion) for VisualEditor (only) at the end of September. More realistically, I expect it to be up and running in VisualEditor later this calendar year. I've not been told a date for extending it to the wikitext editor; all I've heard is that it will happen after it's running in VisualEditor.
I'm not certain about the current status, but a couple of weeks ago, it needed work on service stability and a way to make it generalizable or customizable. Stability has improved since then, but has it improved enough for regular use on a very large wiki like this one? I just don't know. I've not heard anything about the rest of the work. (How to convert each URL into a ref was hardcoded in the software back in July. This is okay as a temporary measure, when you're working on keeping the thing up and running, but it's very bad for long-term use and for expansion.) I don't have enough information to know whether they'll meet this original target, but they're really not shy about having the schedule slip. It will get rolled out when the devs believe that it's reasonably ready, not when some manager's timeline says it should be ready. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 00:18, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Reflinks, Dablinks, Dabsolver, Webcheck link, Watcher. These are tools that the community uses to help improve Wikipedia on a daily basis and has repeatedly said is important to their workflow process. Is there a good reason that after all this time, we don't have native tools that perform the same or similar tasks? Why isn't the WMF listening? Is it because they no longer represent the community? Viriditas (talk) 20:39, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Wholly support preceding comment by Viriditas. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:49, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Why are we going through all this again? As I noted at 23:24, 1 July 2014 (two months ago), and also at 20:34, 2 July 2014, it is not the job of the WMF to provide gadgets (or other user scripts); they are kind enough to provide hardware where such tools may be hosted, something that they are not obliged to do. It is us, the community, who provide and maintain the gadgets. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:25, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
They shutdown the Toolserver hosting the gadgets, did they not? You can't have it both ways, and somebody must take responsibility for the overwhelming pattern here: the most important tools used by editors are made unavailable while the most bothersome tools that nobody wants are shoved down our throats. You can't escape these facts. Furthermore, while it is certainly a great idea to make everything open source, that consideration should take place before shutting down tools, not after. Putting the cart before the horse benefits nobody. And let's apply this logic to reality. If everything were required to be open source, would we have even evolved as a technological civilization? Would the computer have ever been built? Would we have ever visited the Moon? Designed the telephone? This management style is best described as cutting off the nose to spite the face. Viriditas (talk) 22:49, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
No. WMF did not shut down Toolserver: Wikimedia Deutschland did. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:54, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Wow. That's a serious reality distortion field you've got going on there. Luckily, I can avoid it by setting up a force field like this: [3][4] When you step inside the field, you see this: "Toolserver is in fact hosted by the Wikimedia Foundation...We provide space, power and racks for the toolserver cluster, at a cost of about $65,000/year to WMF according to our Director of TechOps. We also maintain the database replication on our end which enables tools to function....We can't provide the same level of service for the toolserver infrastructure as we do for core operations, and it makes no sense for a chapter to build out the required staffing and expertise to do so (set up/maintain all or some of the aforementioned functions). Even with slightly increased investment, toolserver would always suffer from being second or third tier infrastructure...We're not comfortable hosting the toolserver infrastructure as-is.." Viriditas (talk) 23:02, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
You seem to not be understanding what you're quoting there, Viriditas. Toolserver was run, administered, and (mostly?) paid for by Wikimedia Deutschland. WMF provided space for WMDE's servers in one of their caching datacenters, as well as some technical support (i.e. the database replication feed). When WMDE didn't want to continue to be responsible for the Toolserver, WMF did not want to take it on as-is for various good technical reasons; instead they used the Labs infrastructure they were already setting up to create a "Toolserver 2.0" that would improve on some of the shortcomings of the original Toolserver. Unfortunately there were some people who liked some of those shortcomings (e.g. the lack of a requirement for open-source licenses on all tools, the fact that it was subject to German/European laws, and so on), and they've raised both valid issues and FUD about the situation. Anomie 23:29, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
I understood what I read perfectly, and anyone can read it in its original context. The WMF shut down the Toolserver because they wanted to migrate to Labs. That's perfectly clear, and you can argue semantics like an attorney until the cows come home. WMF funded it and hosted it, and made the decision to shut it down through various means. The link is very clear about this: "Chapters are autonomous organizations, and it's WM-DE's call how much whether it wants to continue to invest in infrastructure of any kind (and the decision of funding bodies like the FDC to accept or reject that proposition). However, for our part, we will not continue to support the current arrangement (DB replication, hosting in our data-center, etc.) indefinitely." So, in other words, the WMF made a decision to stop supporting what users want and to start supporting things like Meda Viewer, Visual Editor - things that users don't want. But please, do continue to piss on my leg and tell me that it's raining. Viriditas (talk) 23:45, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
If you claim you understood what you read perfectly and have rejected my clarification, than I can only conclude that you are one of the people spreading FUD about the situation. Please stop, your drama is not helping matters any. Anomie 23:50, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
What is this, a totalitarian state run by the WMF? Will you now call for my arrest (ANI) and subsequent execution (indefinite block)? You've reached an all time low. Viriditas (talk) 23:52, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Really? I thought my all-time low on Wikipedia was probably this from back in 2008, which I see has since been deleted. This is nowhere near that one. Anomie 00:17, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Viriditas, uh. You know that labs provides the same service as Toolserver, right? Better, in fact. Ironholds (talk) 12:48, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
I want to apologize for the delay in my reply. I was very busy laughing, so hard in fact, I almost broke a rib. Are you telling me that you interrupted your busy labor day holiday to tell me that labs provides superior service, so superior that it can't even run Reflinks, Dablinks, Dabsolver, Webcheck links, and Watcher? Is that what you are telling me? I am sorry to tell you this, but Dilbert is a cartoon, it was not meant to be taken literally. This may come as quite a shock to you, but please prepare yourself: the Pointy-Haired Boss is the antagonist, not the hero. Viriditas (talk) 22:44, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
What on earth are you talking about? All of those tools were runnable. They functioned perfectly. Dispenser quit because he was trying to host and run copyrighted, proprietary, third-party software in an effort to steganographically go through uploads. Everything else he wrote worked within the labs environment. If labs was that broken it wouldn't host everything else we use.
I'm hearing a lot of certainty from you: I'm not hearing a lot of facts. You should go get your rib looked at: perhaps they could do a quick spot check on your bile duct, too. Ironholds (talk) 06:32, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Unbelievable. Talk about missing the point by a parsec. In any case, the pattern here is clear for anyone to see. Whenever an editor, any editor says "where are the tools we need?" the response from the Foundation employees and their retinue of sycophants is "it's your fault, it's his fault, she did it, he did it, I didn't do it, they did it, someone else did it, and I'm not responsible". Every time. Nobody seems to take responsibility ever. All we get are excuses. I frankly, don't give a damn about these tools. I'm here (and on other noticeboards) representing the dozens of editors who do care, and I'm making their voice heard by repeating myself over and over again until someone over there finally gets it. Those tools are not running on the labs servers now, and that's the point you missed. I don't give two fucks how you get them running, and I'm tired of the litany of excuses blaming other people for your inability to service the needs of the community. Viriditas (talk) 08:11, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
And I'm tired of people who think that volume makes up for not having anything of value to say, or any valid way of saying it. The WMF's only involvement in any of these tools was creating a hosting environment for those tools to live on; it didn't take up responsibility to keep any piece of volunteer code anyone wrote running. If someone takes their blog down in a fit of pique, do you shout at the web hosting company because your favorite site doesn't exist any more? No, because creating a space for code does not equate to maintaining said code. If you were looking to communicate "the tools are down, why can't the tools come back up", you picked a pretty terrible way of doing it - and if you can't see how, you and the dozens of (clearly invisible, if you feel the need to speak for them) editors you apparently represent can get together and maybe try to come up with some hypothesis for why perhaps your messages above were read as impolite, histrionic and ignorant of the facts.
By the way: there's no "your" or "you" here. I'm not speaking here for the WMF: I've got absolutely nothing to do with Labs. I'm a researcher. I know why Dispenser's tools vanished because I read the logs Anomie posted in this thread five days ago. Evidently you didn't.
If you want to make the argument for using volunteer-created resources as a way of experimenting with things that should be taken over by the WMF and maintained for as long as there is a use for them, you want to go talk to the Editing team directly, as has already been suggested, not rant on a noticeboard in such a way as to drive away people who would otherwise be interested in helping. Personally, I'm done with this thread: there are some good conversations happening, but you and others like you have ensured it has become more heat than light. Ironholds (talk) 08:41, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
All I see in the above are more excuses, more bureaucratic filing of paperwork A with bureaucrat B down the hall in room C. WMF shut Toolserver down to push Labs, yet when the tools the community actually uses and depends on aren't a part of that transition, and the community gets upset about it, it isn't the fault of the WMF? It sounds like you have no use for the community. So you're a researcher, are you trying to figure out a way to automate editing so you can shut people like me up for good? That would solve your problem, wouldn't it. Automate the editing process entirely, get rid of the community and you can run the WMF in peace and quiet without any distractions from anyone. Then you can pat each other on the backs and take long coffee breaks as the bots write the articles and maintain the site. No more angry and disgruntled humans to deal with. Why deal with the dirty community who expects the WMF to represent their best interests when you can just phase them out and replace them with bots who will never complain? Viriditas (talk) 08:56, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Let me put it this way, by analogy. Your local shopping mall is severely damaged in a hurricane. The mall's owner wasn't insured, and can't afford to repair the damage. A new mall is built in the same town by a different company, and when it opens you visit it, only to find that there is no Abercrombie & Fitch. Who do you blame - the owner of the old mall, the owner of the new mall, the hurricane, or A&F? Or perhaps Abercrombie & Fitch did open a new store, but one day you arrive to find that it's closed because the staff are on strike for higher pay. Who do you blame? If your answer to either question is "the owner of the new mall", it's the wrong answer. It is not the responsibility of the WMF to provide tools that the tool writer has declined to support. --Redrose64 (talk) 09:08, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I don't need or require your false analogy, as I understand exactly what is going on. The WMF no longer has any use for the community. They've got their 20 million and they are good with that. Everyone else can fuck off now, and accept what they are given from up above without question, and if you complain, you'll be told to complain to someone over there and then someone over there, until you're running around in circles all day. The bureaucratic nightmare you've created (because bureaucracy serves only bureucracy, nothing else) is the end result. The community no longer matters. Ironholds' comments are so far from reality, they can only be described as fantasy. He actually called the numerous editors concerned about the missing tools in this very thread "clearly invisible". That is not just beyond the pale, it is indicative of a larger problem that needs to be addressed. These editors are not "clearly invisible" by any means. They are right here, in this thread, demanding that the tools return. They don't care about your ad hoc analogies, and they certainly don't feel better about having tools they don't want shoved down their throat. You can't rationalize this away and pretend it's not a problem. And I don't need to construct a bullshit excuse or analogy to explain the problem, I can tell you exactly what it is. The WMF is spending thousands on software nobody wants or needs and not a single goddamn penny on the tools Wikipedia editors require. Do you understand the problem yet, or do I and dozens of other editors need to explain it to you another hundred times? Do not respond here with another "it's not our problem" excuse, because it is your problem, and the community has told you about the problem over and over again. Make the tools work. Got it? Viriditas (talk) 09:37, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
You seem to be under the misapprehension that I'm somehow connected with the WMF. I'm not, although I did meet some of them a few weeks ago. Rant at me all you like: it won't make me provide any tools whatsoever, because I never intended to; and those who were considering doing so might be less inclined to assist. My concern is that too much blame is being directed at the wrong people. And for the last time: the WMF did not shut Toolserver down: WMDE did. Do you understand that? Like Ironholds, I'm done here. --Redrose64 (talk) 09:53, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
If you will read carefully, you will see that I did not refer to you as "connected" to the WMF. Dispenser claimed that the WMF shutdown the Toolserver and his interpretation of that action is supported by the linked documents above. Your literalist interpretation, however, as to who finally turned off the lights, avoids the central concerns and acts to deflect responsibility from the WMF. There seems to be a culture of avoidance at work here. That many users have expressed their concern with the loss of these tools only to be told they are "clearly invisible", shows that the WMF has completely lost touch with their core mission. Viriditas (talk) 19:19, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Or alternately it shows that (1) you're reading far too much into one editor's statements if you think it says anything about "The WMF" and (2) you don't understand that the immediate read on "I'm here (and on other noticeboards) representing the dozens of editors who do care, and I'm making their voice heard by repeating myself over and over again" suggests that you're talking for people who aren't talking themselves - IOW, people 'invisible' when you look at the conversation. The long ramble about automation is simply the icing on the cake; that's nothing to do with my work, and your needless hypothesising is, well, needless. Ironholds (talk) 19:32, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
That "long ramble", as you put it, is called satire, paying homage to "The Brain Center at Whipple's', as my edit summary referenced. And my observation about your bureaucratic tendencies refers to the film Brazil. You're still taking everything literally, I see. This thread is chock full of the "invisible" people asking for their tools back. I suggest you take a customer service training class, as you aren't very good dealing with real people. Viriditas (talk) 22:36, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
@Redrose64: So you think the WMF should ignore user needs and do whatever they want. Got it. Hopefully this isn't the new consultative process Jimbo is talking about. --NeilN talk to me 23:00, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Technolibertarianism will always devolve into outright fascism. You can count on it. "Jünger like Marinetti emphasized the revolutionary capacities of technology, and emphasized an "organic construction" between human and machine as a liberating and regenerative force in that challenged liberal democracy, conceptions of individual autonomy, bourgeois nihilism, and decadence. He conceived of a society based on a totalitarian concept of "total mobilization" of such disciplined warrior-workers." Sounds familiar. Viriditas (talk) 23:59, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

when the checklinks tool work--Amt000 (talk) 02:57, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

@NeilN: I said nothing of the sort. I said that Wikimedia Deutschland shut down Toolserver. That is a fact, not an opinion on what the WMF should (or should not) be doing. There is a big difference between an organisation taking away a service that they had previously provided, but which the community found useful, and an organisation not giving us something that they had not previously provided, but which the community does want. That WMF chose to provide an alternative hosting service (well over a year earlier) in the form of Labs is to our benefit, not our loss. --Redrose64 (talk) 08:03, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Interesting how the topic of this discussion has been side-railed and never managed to quite get back on track. For the record, I support the addition of superprotect when used to enforce page locks for official office actions (like the legal team protecting a version of the page for legal reasons), and think that we should use our WP:BLACKLOCK for this protection level in templates and userscripts. Speaking of which, is this change live on enwp someplace and a test page protected with it so I can update my script to include it? Thanks. — {{U|Technical 13}} (etc) 14:05, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
    • As far as I know, superprotect has only been used to protect one page on any production wiki, ever. It's possible that it is available on one of the test wikis if you'd like to do some testing for you scripts.
      On a slightly related point, if someone would like to figure out what's got screwed up at the Javanese Wikipedia (see File:Screen_Shot_jv.wp_2014-07-04_at_10.16.31_AM.png), that would be helpful. It's probably something about the site notices. I've asked the admins there, and they have no idea how to fix it. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 00:24, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Probably off-topic but as Reflinks is currently down, and the "consider signing the petition" link on its page links to this section, I'll just post this here: Reflinks is absolutely vital and it should be fixed or an adequate replacement found as soon as possible, there is currently no other tool that offers the same amount of functionality as Reflinks does that doesn't involve tediously fixing bare URLs manually to some degree. Satellizer (´ ・ ω ・ `) 12:10, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I was a bit fed up about this being used to hijack the superprotect discussion, so I've separated them. —TheDJ (Not WMF) (talkcontribs) 14:35, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Please restore Reflinks. It is very useful. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:56, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Agreed, they need to put their differences aside, and get these tools back up for the sake of Wikipedia. If it never comes back, i can't see myself filling refs again. Koala15 (talk) 23:53, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Please bring Dabsolver back. DuncanHill (talk) 17:40, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Regardless of the reason why we're at this point without Reflinks and the like, I've concluded that the more WMF gets involved the worse the situation gets. Wikipedia works better when WMF does nothing but collect donations and keep the servers up. Everything else they've done makes the work of editors harder. Chris Troutman (talk) 17:06, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
I added it to this list [5], which is where I found the old one a long time ago. Perhaps there are other places? Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:17, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Rewrite of Reflinks[edit]

Hi folks! I've made a quick-and-dirty rewrite of Reflinks: (Source). It currently doesn't have the XSS editing interface like the original tool, so you'll need to copy-and-paste the generated source back into the article. Could you test it out? Thanks a lot! Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 13:48, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Pinging Zhaofeng Li. Maybe I'm not adept at using this in its present state. I tried it on Hikaru Sulu, specifically on one citation. This was the Result. Or maybe that was correct - I've never done a Twitter ref. — Maile (talk) 20:37, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
Here's another: I tried Rodney Alexander as a "Fix Page", and did not save the changes to the page. It looks to me like while it fixed the refs, within the article it also randomly substituted a question mark in place of dashes in dates (1988–2004 to 1988?2004), quotation marks and apostrophes elsewhere. The substitution on apostrophes was not consistent - hit and miss type of thing. — Maile (talk) 20:53, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
@Maile66: I've fixed the display of some Unicode characters. Could you test it again? Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 23:00, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. It worked fine but does not seem to create a |publisher = | field for webcites . Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:04, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
@Alanscottwalker: Thanks for trying it out! Basic matadata parsing is now available (work, date, author) for sites with metadata embedded (e.g. Forbes, Engadget, Time, etc).commit Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 12:38, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the response but I am unclear, are you saying that a publisher won't be included for any site (or only some sites) if not can the program just insert a blank publisher field? Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:45, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
@Alanscottwalker: Yes, |publisher= won't be included. There is but I haven't seen it in any site I know, so I haven't written the code to parse it. I can add a blank field for publisher, but I'm not sure if it'll clutter up the source. Maybe leave it to the editors to manually add the field? Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 13:07, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
Two points. 1) the old tool generally put something there (it often had to be corrected because it was often just the web address or somewhat less informative site name like,, but 2) at least with a blank field it will either remind people that this information is part of the information we want, or may even lead them to actually adding it (now or sometime in the future). (As for clutter, it's my experience that blank field show up in the code but not in the article.) Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:22, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @Alanscottwalker: Okay, an empty |publisher= will be added to the end.commit Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 13:35, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Crossing my fingers that I have not lead you astray :) Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:48, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Works well, and it actually resolves New York Times urls, which the original never did.--Auric talk 13:39, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Zhaofeng Li, your rewrite works. Thanks. Any chance of getting it into the sidebar toolbox similiar to this one:
// Add WP:Reflinks launcher in the toolbox on left
addOnloadHook(function () {
"p-tb", // toolbox portlet
"" + wgPageName
+ "?client=script&citeweb=on&overwrite=&limit=30&lang=" + wgContentLanguage,
"Reflinks" // link label

— Maile (talk) 14:57, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

@Maile66: Yes, just made a script. Add {{subst:iusc|User:Zhaofeng Li/Reflinks.js}} to your common.js and it'll work. Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 15:18, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
Zhaofeng Li, many thanks. — Maile (talk) 17:07, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
Great! Zhaofeng Li! Works perfectly here! Thanks. →Enock4seth (talk) 23:41, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
@Zhaofeng Li: Your replacement works very well - thanks for developing this and for being so responsive to feedback on your talk page.
@Enock4seth: You may want to expand the references with |author=, |date= and |publisher=. Happy editing! GoingBatty (talk) 00:28, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
@Zhaofeng Li, Enock4seth: Unfortunately, it didn't work perfectly. It appears it added an incorrect |author= in reference #3. GoingBatty (talk) 00:30, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
@GoingBatty: Oops! Seen it. Thanks for the heads-up! :) →Enock4seth (talk) 10:17, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for creating this Zhaofeng Li, it seems to work so far. I have a question for anyone who can answer it. Is there some logic to the choice of date formats? I ask because Dispenser's Reflinks used YYYY-MM-DD, and Zhaofeng Li's uses DD MMM YYYY? ProveIt follows user preferences.- MrX 01:03, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
WP:STRONGNAT says articles with strong national ties should use the most common date format in the country, hence the use of {{Use dmy dates}} and {{Use mdy dates}}. I'll update the tool to detect such templates and use the corresponding date format, or fall back to user preference if none is found. Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 07:32, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Just a note that it now detects the templates for preferred date format. Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 14:25, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, I will give it try.- MrX 22:18, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
The date format is being picked up from user prefs now, but I think there may be a problem with some of the parsing. Several refs are filled with "date=January 1, 1970". Some of the authors are not being picked up correctly, and there are some issues with the some titles. See this diff which you can compare to Dispenser's reflinks here.- MrX 22:46, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── For clarification, it doesn't follow user preferences here (It has no way to know your on-wiki preferences, anyway), only the templates. By default, it uses the DMY format (e.g. 1 January 1970), but it switches to MDY (e.g. January 1, 1970) when {{Use mdy dates}} is used (in the example given above). Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 09:13, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

@MrX: Didn't see the "1970" error. It was a bug and is now fixed. Thanks. Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 04:25, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks Zhaofeng Li the dates work great now. In the cases where there us no {{use mdy dates}} or {{use dmy dates}} it may be a good idea to try to determine the citation date format already in use per MOS:DATEUNIFY.- MrX 22:30, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Just a heads-up that diff preview is available on the result page. Give it a try. Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 07:34, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Is there a reason why the diff display is a fixed width (apparently based on the monospace font in use by the browser) rather than responsive to the browser window width?- MrX 22:30, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
  • PLEASE restore Dispenser's tools, including Reflinks. There is no good reason to rewrite any of them from scratch. — Lentower (talk) 10:44, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Actually, it has already been done (somehow). Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 12:26, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
      • To make my point clear: Yes, there is good reason to rewrite Reflinks. To my understanding, it's either a) the original Reflinks incorporates code with unclear licensing, or b) Dispenser is simply unwilling to open-source the original Reflinks (unless his financial requirement is met). So in my opinion, rewriting Reflinks from scratch is the best way to avoid more dramas in our community. By the way, I find Coren's action here perfectly reasonable, since he's acting according to Labs Terms of Use. Wikipedia is free, and its tools should be free too, with as few strings attached as possible. Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 04:53, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
        • The original Reflinks is GPL'd; its my library that needs to be audited. That "financial requirement" was to use 24 TB of storage already purchased, unused, and no plans for any use.
          Coren has literally changed rules (with dubious justification) to hinder me. I had already removed the non-free software in question and was composing an email to legal requesting permission to use non-free software (Yes, Labs has non-FLOSS) when Coren banned and kicked me. — Dispenser 04:58, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Just tried the new version here, seems to have worked perfectly. I had to put importScript("User:Zhaofeng Li/Reflinks.js"); //Linkback: [[User:Zhaofeng Li/Reflinks.js]] on my common.js. Thanks again, Zhaofeng Li! —ATinySliver/ATalkPage 18:48, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

@Zhaofeng Li: - Howdy! Would you like some design help on this? I'm more than willing to help, and I've cleared it so that I can give you some time, if you'd like. You can hit me up on my user page or email me directly (bharris -at- --Jorm (WMF) (talk) 01:04, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
@Jorm (WMF): Thanks a lot! Will certainly do. Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 02:06, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
@ATinySliver, Zhaofeng Li: Unfortunately, it didn't work perfectly here, so I reverted the edit.
  • Reflinks replaced a valid dead link tag with an incorrect reference to Yahoo.
  • Reflinks added "North JC Neighborhood Association" in the work parameter
  • Reflinks added "Oakmont Village" in the author parameter
  • Reflinks added "" in the title parameter instead of the title of the article
  • ATinySliver didn't make the necessary corrections before saving the edit.
Zhaofeng Li has done a fabulous job and is working hard to improve the tool, but it will always need humans to double check it and make fixes before saving. GoingBatty (talk) 02:22, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Guh! Frak! —ATinySliver/ATalkPage 02:59, 10 September 2014
@GoingBatty: It now skips references with dead link tags silently. The other problems will be dealt later, since it's so awkward to type with the touchscreen on my phone. Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 04:50, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Reply - Thank you for creating the new version of Reflinks! --Jax 0677 (talk) 04:59, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
You don't actually have to fix before saving but if you don't, you should fix after saving. That's also double checking. Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:18, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, that was just an unfortunate case of me paying insufficient attention. I've used it since with greater care. xD —ATinySliver/ATalkPage 18:10, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Part of the problem is the insistence on open-sourced software. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia not a political movement. Demanding people only run free software, oppose "right to forget" and join Amnesty International are al outwith the Foundation's remit. All the best: Rich Farmbrough11:31, 11 September 2014 (UTC).
The board does not disagree with me.
  • Nowhere does it try to compel people outside the foundation to use free software or to release their software under free licenses.
  • And "right to be forgotten" has no impact on the content of any of the projects I am involved with, it applies only to "outdated, irrelevant or wrong" information, and our BLP requirements are much stricter. Besides which the text you refer to says "Except where required by applicable law" so accepts things like "right to be forgotten".
All the best: Rich Farmbrough11:44, 17 September 2014 (UTC).
You forget that Tool Labs is hosted by the Foundation. People who want to use non-free software are welcome to host their tools elsewhere. And the "except where required by applicable law" isn't saying they support censorship just because some government makes a law, it says they'll comply with the law despite objecting to the censorship. Anomie 12:41, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Why do you think I am forgetting that? Clearly one cannot go elsewhere, since WMF have effectively closed down the toolserver, and now want to ensure that they potentially retain control of the tools. This hegemony is actually anti-freedom, and attempts to make forking impossible. As Lila said on Meta "We need to figure out why people aren't hosting here." WMF as a hosting company, getting the most hits, not as a foundation supporting the promulgation of free knowledge. All the best: Rich Farmbrough17:17, 27 September 2014 (UTC).
Because you claimed that the Board saying that WMF should use free software somehow doesn't apply to Tool Labs. Your paranoid claims about "retaining control" and "attempts to make forking impossible" are just that. Most people find it much easier to fork code when it's under an open-source license. Anomie 20:18, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Very nice version of reflinks, but one glitch i noticed was it doesn't add a ref name= when multiple refs are the same. Koala15 (talk) 16:12, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
    Yeah, it doesn't merge duplicated references. There are other scripts that can do this, anyway. Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 11:09, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
    BG19bot (talk · contribs) merges duplicated refs. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:03, 14 September 2014 (UTC)


Kudos for the rewrite. When converting refs not using cite, e.g. this ref: <ref>[ Mom blames son's suicide on Luzerne County judge in 'kids for cash' case]. Associated Press. February 22, 2011</ref>, it's losing both the date and publisher, even though this information is both on the source website and in the replaced reference. It would be cool if it could parse one or both of these metadata sources.

Also, it's wanting to add "accessdate=17 September 2014"; I thought that was a bug, but then realized it makes sense, as the tool has been to the site and confirmed that it's still live.

Lastly, it would be cool if it could parse the archiveurl field in order to fill in the archivedate field. However, perhaps its more appropriate for the citation template to simply parse the field itself.

--{{U|Elvey}} (tc) 03:04, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

The |accessdate= should not be automatically changed under those circumstances. The |accessdate= indicates the date on which it is known the reference supports the text, not just that there is a webpage at that address. It is unlikely that the tool has the capability to determine that the webpage has not changed from the time that it was cited. Without verifying that the webpage still supports the text, the |accessdate= should not be changed. The entire purpose of |accessdate= is to give us the date when the webpage supported the text, not just when there was a server that happened to provide content for that URL. — Makyen (talk) 04:46, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
@Elvey, Makyen: It doesn't parse metadata from plain references, only the caption. Expanding of those references can be disabled by selecting "Do not expand captioned plain links" (Should this be made default?) Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 12:53, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
On an unrelated note, New York Times is now blacklisted since it's only spitting the log-in page back to us (We have only 10 free articles per month). Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 12:57, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
Why would you blacklist it? Only recent articles count in the 10 free per month. Koala15 (talk) 01:02, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
Will investigate into it. Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 00:25, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Nice work, Zhaofeng.

Is there now enough confidence in the rewrite that the link (now hidden) to the old Reflinks in {{Cleanup-bare URLs}} could be replaced with a link to the new version?—Quick and Dirty User Account (talk) 20:52, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

@Quick and Dirty User Account: It's almost ready, but I'd like to have the outstanding bugs fixed before it's added. Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 00:25, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
I've started a new section on Template talk:Cleanup-bare URLs#Reflinks rewrite to discuss this. Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 15:07, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
I've added the tool and updated the documentation. Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 09:57, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Why does starting a line with a space resulted in preformatted text?[edit]

So when I start a line with a space...

The result is this preformatted text, which worst of all, doesn't word wrap, and then puts a horizontal scroll bar on the entire page because of a single confused new user

What a new editor would expect is...

This line of text, which is indented. However, this line actually starts with a colon.

Why do we do this? What good does it do to confuse the hell out of new editors? Oiyarbepsy (talk) 00:09, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Just because....? By design it was meant as an EASY way to display preformed text. I think it has outlived its usefulness as the use cases for adding preformated text by people who dont' really mean it and know about the <pre> tags is very small. Almost everytime I see it, it is an error. As far as converting wiki-markup to html goes, I disagree that leading spaces should be automatically converted to non-breaking spaces. — xaosflux Talk 00:47, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm not necessarily saying what type of space or tab it should be, I'm saying a leading space should appear as a space. An ordinary space is probably best, but a colon is the closest thing to that that I know how to do. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 01:56, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
In HTML, multiple whitespaces characters in a row are effectively reduced to a single space. Even linebreaks are usually not preserved. Normal wikitext preserves this, with the slight difference that (in most contexts) a double linebreak is transformed into a paragraph break.
Since wikitext is in origin basically plain text with ad-hoc markup along the lines of that used in plain-text email and other media, indenting a line with spaces was taken as an indication that the writer intended the line to display with spacing and newlines intact and with a monospaced font, exactly the default formatting for a <pre>. This seems to be relatively common in other tools that take plain text as input and output it wrapped nicely in HTML, although whether wikitext is due to that or vice versa I don't know. Anomie 11:06, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
That's a good technical explanation. The problem is that I've never seen an instance of a single space being used with that purpose in mind, but I've seen an awful lot of instances of it happening when it wasn't wanted. HiLo48 (talk) 11:28, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
I suspect this is one of those things where it may be too late to fix it. Adam Cuerden (talk) 11:37, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
Part of the technical problem when inventing a markup language whose output is primarily intended to be displayed by a web browser is that HTML doesn't actually have a semantic way to specify indented or column-aligned (non-tabular) text. (The "colon" MediaWiki markup is mapped to HTML's "description definition" element, which is supposed to follow a "description term" element (which in MediaWiki markup is represented by an initial semi-colon). <dd> elements are typically indented when rendered, which is why initial colons are used to produce indent levels, even though semantically it's incorrect.) So mapping initial spaces to a pre-formatted block rendered using a fixed-width font provides a way to quickly include text that is manually column-aligned. This is useful for including coding examples, for instance, but less useful for a general purpose encyclopedia. isaacl (talk) 00:24, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposal: A wikitext line beginning with spaces should be formatted as a printed line beginning with a space[edit]

The proposal to change the software formatting is pretty straightforward. The formatting would explicitly show only a single space, and not multiple, regardless of how many spaces are typed by the user. Please comment whether you approve. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 19:18, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

  • Oppose the proposal as formulated as there has been no consideration of what will break as a consequence. And as Adam Cuerden said, this may be one of those things that it is too late to fix. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:44, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm not clear what you mean by "a single space": from your previous example, I think you mean a single indent level? To be honest, if we were going to change this behaviour to something else, I'm not sure this is the formatting I'd choose. For better or worse, though, the effort to transition existing text to use a new mechanism and educate editors on the change would probably not produce enough benefit to make it worthwhile. isaacl (talk) 22:50, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
Is anybody actually using this as a feature? I think everytime I've ever seen this, it's been an error by a new editor. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 23:42, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
Of course, for example in many articles about computer science and algorithms, like Dijkstra's algorithm. Also, as a general rule, whenever there is a certain behavior of wikitext, whether intended or not, whether well-defined or not, somebody, somewhere, is using it as a feature, and will come shout at you if you change it. Matma Rex talk 00:15, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
I often use it to display code like in #Below editing window. Sieve of Eratosthenes#Example shows use in an article. It's part of the MediaWiki software used by thousands of wikis. Some of them probably use it much more than us. It would cause confusion if a new MediaWiki version changed it, or introduced an option where wikis could choose another interpretation of leading spaces. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:16, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
Not sure if you've noticed, but the current behaviour already causes confusion. Hence this proposal. HiLo48 (talk) 08:39, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── To make this happen:

  1. File a feature request
  2. Identify and update all current intentional uses to <pre>
  3. Wait until a developer implements this

 Gadget850 talk 00:28, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

It's extremely unlikely that MediaWiki would be changed for this usage, but anyone wanting that would also need to consider that <pre> disables wikitext markup like using apostrophes for bold or braces for templates or making links clickable. Starting a line with a space is different and someone will be using that fact somewhere. Johnuniq (talk) 02:14, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose It's an established and documented feature of the MediaWiki markup that has been there almost from the start (the earliest reference to this feature that I can find is in the release notes for MediaWiki 1.3.4 (28 September 2004) which includes a bugfix "Strip leading blank from output in preformated text."). Remember that MediaWiki is used on many projects and websites, not just Wikipedia; it is far, far too late to change this behaviour now. Eleven years ago (MediaWiki 1.1 arrived in December 2003), maybe; but not now. --Redrose64 (talk) 08:22, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
    Documented? LOL. It's our novice users who get stung by this behaviour. Tell me the chances they will see this alleged documentation before getting totally confused. HiLo48 (talk) 08:39, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
    Help:Wiki markup#Retaining newlines and spaces "The MediaWiki software suppresses single newlines and converts lines starting with a space to preformatted text in a dashed box." --Redrose64 (talk) 09:15, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
    Quoting the documentation here is not a sensible response to my concerns. HiLo48 (talk) 11:36, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
    When I started editing Wikipedia, the page that was then called Wikipedia:How to edit a page included this section. It's not there any more: along with some other sections, it was moved on 4 December 2009 to a new page, Help:Wiki markup, where it remains, see Help:Wiki markup#Limiting formatting / escaping wiki markup. That table has been amended since then, primarily to exchange the two columns and insert a row; but the bottom row, about leading spaces, has substantially the same meaning as it did back in May 2009. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:06, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
    I for one, when I began editing at the beginning of this year, knew of this from the start, because I read the Help pages. BethNaught (talk) 16:10, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
    That's very wise. Being so wise, you will also know that most new editors won't read the Help pages before they start editing. I think our aim should be to keep both kinds of editors here. HiLo48 (talk) 21:28, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Support It's the obvious expected behaviour. Those saying it's too late too fix it remind me of the farming spokesman here in Australia who once declared "This rain is nice, but it's too late to break the drought." Just fix it. HiLo48 (talk) 08:35, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose: This will break stuff. I know people do actually use it because I sometimes use it to format my talk page. I don't want to have to go fix up my archives, thank you. Other users have identified mainspace uses as well. This is too late to fix, unless you like breaking stuff for the sake of it. BethNaught (talk) 09:05, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
That's a rude comment. I want it fixed, not because I "like breaking stuff for the sake of it", but so we can retain new editors, those who get put off Wikipedia forever by the completely confusing, non-intuitive behaviour of our user interface. Nobody is asking for this just for the sake of it. They are asking for it because they care. HiLo48 (talk) 11:36, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, I realise you had a reason and shouldn't have ignored that. I am curious to know however how this will be changed without causing damage. In my opinion, we should retain this behaviour as a useful if idiosyncratic MediaWiki feature and expedite the improvement and return of VisualEditor, which will have a much greater positive effect on newcomer retention than changing one small part of a markup language. BethNaught (talk) 12:05, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
Yes, if a high quality version of Visual Editor was delivered, via a process using even higher quality change management (something sorely missing last time), there would be no issue. HiLo48 (talk) 21:34, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose If this is to be changed, leading spaces should just be stripped. In practice bad copy paste often introduces these, the <pre> behavior makes them pretty obvious to see right now, but converting them to &nbsp; is not desirable either. — xaosflux Talk 11:52, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
    Just saw your note above, the conversion to a non-breaking space would be needed over a normal space, as a leading normal space would get removed as part of the generic html cleanup. — xaosflux Talk 12:06, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose It is already being used as a feature now. --Fauzan✆ talk✉ mail 12:44, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose per above. ansh666 18:05, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Spurious text on source links[edit]

When using a screen reader with Wikipedia, often sources in the references list will have this kind of text apended to them:


Does anyone know what causes this? Finn Turner. see my user page 21:19, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

@FninnTurner: Yes, that is the COinS metadata. It's held in the title= attribute of a <span>...</span> element which contains nothing apart from another <span>...</span> element, which itself encloses a non-breaking space. More at WP:COINS. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:50, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
In your example (the first reference at [6]) it's extra long due to a 445-character url [7] an editor entered in the citation:
{{cite journal|last=Conner|first=Jeffrey|title=Artificial Selection: A Powerful Tool for Ecologists|journal=Ecology|date=July 2003|volume=84|issue=7|page=1650-1660|url=|accessdate=16 December 2013|doi=10.1890/0012-9658(2003)084[1650:asaptf];2}}
Long url's like that can often be shortened but here it's a restricted access site so I cannot experiment with it. I know nothing about screen readers and don't know whether there is a way to avoid getting the text. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:05, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
I dropped some messages around the place; plus, Graham87 (talk · contribs), who does use a screen reader, is a regular here. --Redrose64 (talk) 23:18, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
That citation can (should!) be rewritten:
{{cite journal|last=Conner|first=Jeffrey|title=Artificial Selection: A Powerful Tool for Ecologists|journal=Ecology|date=July 2003|volume=84|issue=7|page=1650-1660 |jstor=3449986 |doi=10.1890/0012-9658(2003)084[1650:asaptf];2}}
The jstor identifer comes from the url just after/stable/.
I don't quite know if there is anything we can do about screenreaders reading the COinS metadata. I don't have any experience with screen readers. Is this the first report of this issue? COinS has been part of CS1 for a long time.
Trappist the monk (talk) 23:19, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
@FninnTurner: What screen reader and version are you using? Looks like the specific article is Selective breeding. --  Gadget850 talk 23:44, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
I discovered this when I upgraded to JAWS 12 a couple of years ago; it occurs in IE but not in Firefox (and I generally prefer the way IE renders Wikipedia with JAWS, so I use that browser). I reported it to Freedom Scientific once but received no response. Graham87 03:30, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Use of DIVs[edit]

on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Terrorism, the top boxes use a nontraditional div html markup, instead of the Wikitable markup. Normally I wouldn't care less, but in this case there's a strange line running down the left side that is surely caused by this markup. I tried closing the divs in the archive box, but when I hit "show preview" it did not entirely eliminate the issue. Can someone with more wiki markup know-how fix this issue? hbdragon88 (talk) 05:19, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Done, I think. I hope that's not a controversial edit. That is some unusual html markup for WP; I didn't dig into it to try to replace the whole thing. – Jonesey95 (talk) 06:19, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Missing argument for \mathcal[edit]

MathJax, for some reason, has problem handling something like \hat\mathcal{O} which is legit tex markup. \hat{\mathcal{O}} is handled properly.


This affects many articles, such as quantum limit. Please fix this soon. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 13:42, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

That's a MediaWiki feature; you probably want bugzilla. Ironholds (talk) 18:52, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
That's a disappointing response from a member of WMF staff. Perhaps "Let me help you report that", or "I can report that for you", might have been more appropriate? Deltahedron (talk) 17:29, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

TemplateData editor doesn't save work[edit]

I created {{bl}} and tried to add TemplateData using the "Manage TemplateData" button. I clicked "Apply", then saved the page. Didn't work for me with either of Monobook and Vector. Am I missing something? Paradoctor (talk) 14:52, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

It's there all right. You added it to the /doc page with this edit. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:32, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
That was a manual edit without using the TemplateData editor. Sorry, should have made that clear. Paradoctor (talk) 16:38, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done Ok, I found the guilty party: wikEd I'll notify Cacycle. Paradoctor (talk) 17:00, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for this note, and congratulations on figuring out what's going on. I filed a report about this conflict as bug 71363 so that the devs working on TemplateData will know about it. They may close it soon, but at least they'll know that it happens, and anyone searching there will be able to find it. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:24, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Judge Judy article on Russian WP[edit]

Not sure where to post this TBH. Anyway, the Russian article wiki article for Judith Sheindlin is showing her as being deceased in 2012 ("10 февраля 2012"). This is in the infobox and populates a category. For the life of me, I can't find where this actual text is in the article (it's only a stub over there) and can't remove it. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 18:25, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

It looks like it's pulling from Wikidata. I'll revert the vandalism. Ironholds (talk) 18:53, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
Done. Something done through one of Magnus's automated tools, I think? Ironholds (talk) 18:56, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
Brilliant - thanks for that. There's a bunch of articles in the same boat (from WP:LIVINGDEAD). Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 19:10, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Intermittent 403 on server resources[edit]

I am getting completely random occurences of 403 errors on server resources like this arrow image, causing it not to display. Hitting reload several times will show the problem. What is causing this? -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 20:33, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Since you are trying out HHVM, I would suspect that. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:31, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
How can that affect pulling static HTTP resources? -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 09:25, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
I just tested it, and that is indeed the cause. I've opened bugzilla:71385 about it. User:BDavis (WMF) on IRC says it's probably because of a file permissions problem on one of the HHVM servers. Jackmcbarn (talk) 17:48, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Can't use → directly in edit summaries[edit]

I first raised this point at the Teahouse and was advised to bring it here instead. Until recently I have been able to simply click on the arrow symbol to insert it in the edit summary bar, but now if I click on it the arrow is inserted at the last position I was at in the main body of the article, even though I have clicked in the summary bar before clicking on the arrow. Now I find that I have to do a copy/paste to get it in there. Is this a software glitch? If so will things return to the way they were? I'm using Google chrome and my preferences are set for the Vector skin. The problem doesn't appear on IE but it does on Safari. Jodosma (talk) 09:38, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

It works on my end, using Chrome on Windows. But then again, I'm using the old CharInsert bar. The new edit toolbar above the edit window does not work in the edit summary. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 09:47, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
Works as intended in Firefox, Monobook, WP:REFTOOLS 1.0, no WikiEd, no Visual Editor, no Media Viewer. --Redrose64 (talk) 11:47, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
Are you using wikEd? I have the same issue. When I disable wikEd for a moment, CharInsert works as intended. Paradoctor (talk) 13:16, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
I have had WikEd enabled for ages. But this only started about a week or so ago. Somehow the software has changed. I have not made any changes of any kind which would affect my access to the arrow. Some software guy must be responsible. Jodosma (talk) 16:44, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
I dimly remember having had this problem a couple of years ago, so I doubt that this is due to a change in the software. CharInsert seems to have had no substantial change other than localization for years, and the latest change to wikEd appears blameless, too. BTW, that the problem doesn't appear on IE for you is another hint that this is the clash between wikEd and CharInsert: On IE, wikEd does not work! Face-wink.svg Paradoctor (talk) 02:53, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Pagemove edit lacks information[edit]

Please look at the history of User:Weekly Shōnen Jump, a userpage for a nonexistent user. About 20 hours ago, Missing, gone fishing created a sandbox, User:Missing, gone fishing/sandbox, and after a few edits, moved it (without reason that I can see) to Weekly S.J. Please look at the page history for the edit that involved the move — there's no mention of the page size in this edit's entry. No numbers, as they would be incorrect, since it was blank, but also no (blank) as in the previous edit or in my first edit. Why not? Is something broken (in which case, should we report it?), or is it something that we can freely ignore? Nyttend (talk) 03:06, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

@Nyttend: This happens because the page was empty when it was moved. I can reproduce this elsewhere, so I can start working on a fix with no need to keep that particular page around. Jackmcbarn (talk) 03:19, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
I reproduced the results my moving the redirect at User:Missing, gone fishing/sandbox to User:Bb. As in the other case (where I think Missing, gone fishing wanted to move it to Weekly Shōnen Jump, but the move interface is confusing when moving a user page), the log for the target has nothing about the move. Note that Bb is registered, so it's not something that happens to only unregistered usernames. --NE2 03:21, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
[edit conflict] In that case, it can be deleted (so I did). Jack, please reproduce this and link it as soon as possible, so that non-admins don't have to wonder what this kind of thing looks like. Nyttend (talk) 03:24, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
This is reproducible by moving any empty page. It doesn't seem to be a big deal. I've created gerrit:163458 to fix this problem; best case, the fix will be live here on October 9th. (Note that this will only make new moves work right; revisions from old moves will stay broken.) Jackmcbarn (talk) 03:57, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the help! I wanted reproduceability so that the developers would know what to do; I didn't know you were one of them. Curious, why the 9th? Do we already have a code update coming then? Nyttend (talk) 04:01, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
All updates to MediaWiki get deployed here the second Thursday after they're accepted, so if this gets accepted by the 2nd, it will be here on the 9th. Jackmcbarn (talk) 04:06, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
@Nyttend: The patch got accepted today, so it will be live here on the 9th. Jackmcbarn (talk) 14:59, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
Sounds good. Thanks a lot! Nyttend (talk) 15:01, 29 September 2014 (UTC)


When typing a URL and it redirects, the URL updates - type in Criticism of YouTube and the URL is , while it should stay . Could this be fixed, because I do not want to be confused about the URL. Plus, MediaWiki didn't think about this, but it makes working with redirects more difficult. On all browsers this occurs. Go on a double redirect, press reload and it takes you somewhere else. I'd at least have an option in user preferences to not change URLs - I added a comment on Wikipedia:Gadget/proposals and after a few replies, they were just feedback. A Great Catholic Person (talk) 04:54, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Some formerly separate articles get merged; this is a normal WP process. But you can add a section header to the article name, as I demonstrate with your request. You remain free to edit that section after clicking the link you list above. You can add the redirect to your watchlist, as well, in the redirect page, just click the watchlist-star to turn it blue. It is no longer a separate article, but you can update the redirect if the header is altered. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 05:14, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Or perhaps you might make the redirect #redirect[[Criticism_of_Google#YouTube]] instead. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 05:19, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
I am noticing a bounce in the redirect to the foot of the article. Sometimes it settles down. Suggestions, anyone? Ancheta Wis (talk) 05:24, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
@Ancheta Wis: A Great Catholic Person (talk · contribs) is referring to Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 130#URL changes when I am on a redirect and several other similar threads that they started. --Redrose64 (talk) 11:28, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
@A Great Catholic Person: Re "Go on a double redirect, press reload and it takes you somewhere else", that's a known issue I reported as bug 71002 Looks like I'll need to fix it myself. Matma Rex talk 15:07, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Ancheta Wis (talk · contribs), Redrose64 (talk · contribs), Matma Rex (talk · contribs), Thank you all for your replies, but I really want to ask whoever made this change to add user preference option - no one in WP:Gadget/proposals responded. It looks like, after reading threads I've started, Matma Rex made this upsetting tech development. If this does not get fixed, I get more and more angry until something bad happens to me. See Wikipedia:Gadget/proposals#URL updating. A Great Catholic Person (talk) 16:00, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Ancheta Wis (talk · contribs) I don't completely understand you, but does this mean it gets rid of the issue a bit? Thanks.A Great Catholic Person (talk) 16:26, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Matma Rex (talk · contribs) After reading an earlier thread on this, you must be the one who made this change. Is it possible for you to make the preference of not updating URL? Why won't you make the option as well for people who do not like this? I'll stop complaining on here once that is available. A Great Catholic Person (talk) 16:50, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

@A Great Catholic Person: If you read the earlier discussion, then you're aware this was a long-standing feature request backed by a number of people. The only reason redirects didn't work like this since the day they were invented is because it wasn't possible to do this back then. Adding a preference for it would be counterproductive.
It should, however, be easy to write a user script to bring back the old titles. In the simplest version it could look like the code below (you can paste this in your common.js page). Note that I did not properly test it, it might not work in some cases, and I won't be available to help you if it somehow crashes your browser or renders Wikipedia inaccessible. That said…
// Restore the URL of the redirect page after being redirected
if ( mw.config.get( 'wgRedirectedFrom' ) ) {
	mw.loader.using( 'mediawiki.Title' ).done( function () {
			/*data=*/ history.state,
			/*title=*/ document.title,
			/*url=*/ ( new mw.Title( mw.config.get( 'wgRedirectedFrom' ) ) ).getUrl()
	} )
…should be all that's needed to get the rudimentary functionality of restoring the original URL. (The "new" one will flash for an instant, and this probably won't work as you expect for redirects to sections; the former is unfixable, the latter could be fixed with some cleverness.) Matma Rex talk 23:03, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Matma Rex (talk · contribs) Nah... I'm afraid because of what you said. Any alternative method? (I'll try to do this on my school computers, not my own, because I don't want it to break.) Or, could you actually test it? (Sorry but I want this to be a verified method of getting old URL without issues.) A Great Catholic Person (talk) 01:47, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
It works for me, with the caveat about flicker and links to sections. Matma Rex talk 08:25, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
Matma Rex (talk · contribs) It's safe? Nothing happened to you? I'll think about that later.A Great Catholic Person (talk) 01:46, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Tech News: 2014-40[edit]

09:44, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Many deprecated JavaScript methods will be removed from MediaWiki next week[edit]

This was in the Tech News announcement just above this, but I thought it could do with a little more publicity. The following JavaScript methods and parameters will be removed from MediaWiki 1.25, which means that they will no longer be available on Wikipedia after 9 October:

  • method.
  • mw.user.anon() method.
  • mediawiki.api methods' "ok" and "err" callback parameters.
  • mediawiki.api.category "async" parameter.
  • jquery.json module.

See the announcement on Wikitech-ambassadors for more details and for alternative code.

A few searches revealed some of this code is still in use on this wiki. @Shirki, Tog000, Thomas.tarak.mathew, OrenBochman, Hydriz, Future Perfect at Sunrise: Your names came up in a search for @PerfektesChaos: Your name came up in a search for jquery.json. My own JavaScript skills are still rather rudimentary, but if you have any questions about how to update your code I'm sure others on this noticeboard will be willing to help. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 10:29, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

A lot of scripts were cleaned up a couple of months ago, but it would be good to have these remaining ones addressed.
We need a template that says something like  All your scripts are going to break!  for critical announcements.
Also, for those of you who are active at other projects (other languages and/or non-Wikipedias, please spread the word. This has been announced repeatedly for months, but it's still going to catch some people by surprise. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:03, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
I've notified en.Wiktionary, though it doesn't seem to use any of the above-mentioned things. -sche (talk) 18:12, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for reminding me.
One remark wrt WMF, since Whatamidoing (WMF) contributed to this section:
  • Internet Explorer 7 support has been discontinued mid of September (1.24wmf21).
    • jquery.json has been needed to polyfill the lack of JSON here.
  • Less than one month later all scripts are forced to migrate from jquery.json to JSON.stringify() only, announced on Sep 20 23:55:18 -- to be executed within two weeks, otherwise they shall break.
  • It would not have done any harm to keep jquery.json as a one-liner .toJSON(o) { return JSON.stringify(o); } for half a year.
Greetings --PerfektesChaos (talk) 20:03, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

most visited pages created by a user[edit]

Hi. Is there any online tool to show "all pages created by a user in Descending Order of their traffic statistics in a specific month"?

something like, but with the ability to show the traffic statistics of the all pages created by the user in that month; then the user can consider a good priority plan for improving his articles. Ashkan P. (talk) 15:51, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

You may wish to talk with West.andrew.g. He's figured out how to get the raw hit counts for articles through an automated process. You'd probably need to add articles to your list manually and let Andrew's script update their hit counts. Nyttend (talk) 16:26, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

WM labs having issues again?[edit]

Whenever I click the {{GeoGroupTemplate}} links (either Google or Bing) here and at Commons, I'm instantly taken to a 404 error page, and the same is true for a single appearance of {{coord}}, e.g. this URL. The instantaneous nature of the error makes me suspect that something really basic isn't working at, since thing1-isnt-talking-to-thing2 errors (ones with stuff just not set up rightly) tend to take more than ½ second to resolve as errors. Any idea what's happened? Nyttend (talk) 18:06, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, labs is down ATM, being worked on. Max Semenik (talk) 18:49, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
Understood. Is there a place where I can look up the status, so I don't have to ask next time? Nyttend (talk) 19:03, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Category:Articles which use infobox templates with no data rows - how does an article get into this category?[edit]

I came across this hidden category when editing New Hope & Ivyland 40. The article uses Infobox locomotive and the contents seem similar to many other locomotive pages. The category page gives no information on the reasons why an article is in the category. I checked the talk page and found that someone else had asked the same question, and a reply suggested that the question had been answered (but without a link to the answer...). A further response stated that this forum may the best place for an answer. I've checked the archive but still can't find an answer.

The wording of the category name suggests that its for empty infoboxes, and looking at some of the (12,000+) pages suggests this might be true, but some others (eg Abergavenny Hundred) are populated with parameter values. Robevans123 (talk) 09:55, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

@Robevans123: In the case of New Hope & Ivyland 40 it's an empty {{external media}}; I removed it and the page is no longer in Category:Articles which use infobox templates with no data rows.
In the case of Abergavenny Hundred it's because Template:Infobox historic subdivision has several "child" infoboxes, and if any one of those is fed no data, the whole page ends up in Category:Articles which use infobox templates with no data rows. --Redrose64 (talk) 10:38, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
I have posted to Template talk:Infobox#Articles which use infobox templates with no data rows about this "child" issue. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:05, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
@Redrose64: Thanks for the explanations and cleanup. I'd seen {{external media}} but had assumed it was not an infobox. After your post I went and had a look at it. It's not obvious that it is an infobox, although the examples at the end of a page give a bit of a clue. I only found out that it was an infobox by looking at the source to find that it used {{infobox}}.
@PrimeHunter: Thanks for posting to Template talk:Infobox#Articles which use infobox templates with no data rows. I'll add to that discussion shortly about infoboxes that don't say that they are infoboxes (such as {{external media}}).
In the meantime, I'll add some notes to Category:Articles which use infobox templates with no data rows to explain what it does and why it isn't always obvious what the problem is.
I'm also going to add something to the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Categorization as the whole area of tracking and maintenance categories seems a bit messy and inconsistent. Robevans123 (talk) 13:35, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
Added brief description to Category:Articles which use infobox templates with no data rows. Robevans123 (talk) 14:19, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I ended up here after noticing the cat in 2014 Isla Vista killings. I still don't know how to uncat it. There are two infoboxes, civilian attack and criminal. If there are unused children, it's because they aren't needed. How to fix? ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 19:35, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed the template talk. Ignoring the cat for now. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 19:42, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
@Mandruss: At the moment, the only really safe way is to wrap the child infobox in code that ensures that it only appears if there is data to put in it, like this. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:29, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Just a tad over my pay grade, Rose. Are you suggesting a copy of the template local to the article, somehow? ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 20:36, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Not the article, the template. If the edit that I made to Template:Infobox criminal/sandbox (the template's sandbox) is made to Template:Infobox criminal (the live template), pages like 2014 Isla Vista killings will drop out of Category:Articles which use infobox templates with no data rows in a few hours. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:45, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Ok, well feel free to do that with my blessing lol. ‑‑Mandruss (talk) 20:58, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Watchlist question[edit]

If you have a topic or subject you're following on a noticeboard, Talk page, or discussion forum is there a way to isolate your Watchlist to list only responses to the topic you're interested in (perhaps a url#subjectname), or do you have to receive all posts and sort through to find your topic? AtsmeConsult 20:06, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

At the moment that's not possible (unless the topic is actually on it's own subpage), but it will be once Flow is ready. — HHHIPPO 20:17, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
You can also check "Group changes by page in recent changes and watchlist" option under the "Recent changes" tab of your preferences, which will let you expand a list of all changes since your last visit on your watchlist and see if the particular section you are interested in has been edited.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); September 30, 2014; 20:30 (UTC)
Thank you! AtsmeConsult 22:09, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
Once Flow is ready Consider applying at the comedy club, because that one was pretty good. KonveyorBelt 22:40, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

List of templates[edit]

Wikipedia:TemplateData#Used in main-space (>5000 uses) appears to be nearly empty, but a lot of somewhat common templates (including many CS1 citation templates) still don't have any TemplateData. Could someone make a list of commonly used templates that have no TemplateData blocks (either of the /doc subpage or in the Template itself)? There have been several volunteers working on that task, and they've asked for an updated list several times in the past year.

Thanks, Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:44, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

textarea lang="en" is screwing up Internet Explorer[edit]

DuncanHill (talk · contribs) reported on the Reference Desk that Internet Explorer is enforcing US English spelling in Wikipedia's edit boxes, even though he selected the UK English dictionary, and that it doesn't happen on other web sites. I was able to reproduce the problem with IE 11 on Windows 7 (US English version). The problem is that IE seems to interpret lang="en" as equivalent to lang="en-US", at least on US English Windows.

I think this is a bug in IE, not MediaWiki, but is there any way to work around it on the MediaWiki end? -- BenRG (talk) 21:03, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

So the problem isn't with the system messages that are being displayed, but with the autocorrect in the spelling checker?
I wonder what language User:DuncanHill has selected in Special:Preferences, and if changing that would have any effect (I kind of doubt it, but it'd be easy to find out). WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:57, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
I have British English selected in preferences. I always select British English whenever and wherever I have the chance. DuncanHill (talk) 02:59, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
I tried changing my interface language to en-GB and ja (it's normally en) and the textarea is still tagged lang="en" in both cases, which I suppose makes sense since that's the language of the wiki. I suppose MW could use the user's language preference or the Accept-Language header instead of the wiki language if it's more precise than the wiki language (so en-GB preference → en-GB textarea, but ja preference → en textarea). I have no idea how hard it would be to implement that or whether it's actually a good idea. -- BenRG (talk) 07:05, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Wrapping signatures with a SPAN for discoverability[edit]


Helder 21:30, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

How to get PAGENAME of template instead of page on which it's transcluded[edit]

I have a template called Foo:MyTemplate, containing

Hello from {{PAGENAME}}

I have a page called MyPage, containing


It renders as

Hello from MyPage

I want it to render, instead,

Hello from MyTemplate

That is, I want a variable that gives me the name of the "innermost" page it comes from, not any "outer" pages on which it gets transcluded. It seems that currently, all the transclusion of pages takes place before the evaluation of {{PAGENAME}}  – I want a variable that is evaluated last instead. One obvious application is error messages containing the name of the template that issued them without having to hardcode that name in the message (and the resulting chance a rename/move occurs without changing it). Any ideas? —[AlanM1(talk)]— 02:22, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

@AlanM1: {{#invoke:TEMPLATENAME|main}}. Note that you can't build a wrapper template around that module; if you did, it would say the wrapper template's name instead of the name you wanted. Also, if you have a template that complicated, you're probably better off writing the whole thing in Lua. Jackmcbarn (talk) 02:32, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
@Jackmcbarn: Thanks! Works great. I'm not sure if I understood your wrapper comment, though. I modified the scenario to:
I have a template called Foo:MyTemplate, containing
Hello from {{#invoke:TEMPLATENAME|main}}
I have a template called Foo:MyWrapper, containing
{{#invoke:TEMPLATENAME|main}} says {{Foo:MyTemplate}}
I have a page called MyPage, containing
It renders as intended:
MyWrapper says Hello from MyTemplate
—[AlanM1(talk)]— 03:46, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
I may have been a bit unclear in my description. What you saw there is what I meant would happen. Jackmcbarn (talk) 03:57, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

What clobbered the CirrusSearch index?[edit]

I searched for "largest obesity prevention network" just now and got 10 hits. All of these articles were edited by me earlier today, but most of the last edited dates now shown by CirrusSearch are much older. A few hours ago I made the same search and all 10 articles showed today's date! The real killer is that when you go back to LuceneSearch, it shows a date of 29 September 2014 for article "John Hill (Australian politician)", while CirrusSearch shows a date of 27 August 2014; it doesn't even see the edit made to it yesterday! A major selling point for CirrusSearch is that it is supposed to reflect changes almost immediately, without waiting for a daily index update. Now it's worse than LuceneSearch's index, which the search team had officially given up for dead until 6 days ago, but its index is now being updated more or less on a daily basis. I just did a null edit to the "Bariatrics" article, and now CirrusSearch sees the latest edit, so it looks like CirrusSearch's index will eventually recover, after every article in Wikipedia that was edited over the last day or two has been edited again (shouldn't take much more than a year or two). I think I need a drink. Chris the speller yack 03:28, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Category tools[edit]

Hi! I am using WP:HOTCAT for easy editing of categories on articles/categories. Do we have any other tool on enwiki like Commons has a Gadget Cat-a-lot which helps you categorize even in the search result output or which can help in mass moving, copying of categories? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 07:30, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

@Dharmadhyaksha: You can use Cat-a-lot here, see User:קיפודנחש#Cat-A-Lot. Cheers LittleWink (talk) 19:19, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Issue with Template:CrunchBase[edit]

Hey all - this is in regards to Template:CrunchBase. At the moment, placing {{Crunchbase person}} on an article will create a link to the respective CrunchBase profile using the PAGENAME through urlencode. This will, for example, turn Steve Jobs into steve+jobs. The problem with this is that CrunchBase's URL system uses - instead of + to represent spaces, making all these URLs broken (e.g. steve+jobs should be steve-jobs). I can't figure out a way to render the page name with dashes instead of spaces - any help? Thanks! ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 08:13, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I used {{Replace}} in [18]. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: Ah, simple enough - thanks! :) ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 16:54, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Back button broken after page creation[edit]

Matma Rex Further to Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 130#Back button broken after page restore, I've now had something similar happen when creating a page (specifically, Category:Draft-Class rail transport articles) by clicking a redlink. Essentially, what I did was to click a redlink; enter the appropriate wikicode (copied from elsewhere with small adjustments); save the page; click on some bluelinks in the newly-created page. The normal "back" operation will not take me back any further than Category:Draft-Class rail transport articles, the newly-created page, but again, a right-click to get the tab history works. Browser is now Firefox 32.0.3 --Redrose64 (talk) 13:00, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

@Redrose64: This time it has nothing to do with wikitext redirects, right? :) Perhaps it's a new Firefox bug? You indeed do get a HTTP redirect after saving the page (from /w/index.php, which is where the edit form is submitted to, to the article page), but it has been this way since ever. Matma Rex talk 20:40, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Wikilink showing up as markup?[edit]

Does anyone know what's going on with the link to ball milling in the Carbon Nanoscrolls article? For me it seems to be showing up in the article with literal brackets "[[" rather than as a link. (I'm on Internet Explorer, which I'm not usually, but it's a new version so even if that's the issue we should probably be compatible) ∴ ZX95 [discuss] 14:10, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

@ZX95: Fixed. The problem was that there was a line break inside the link. Jackmcbarn (talk) 14:14, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
@Jackmcbarn: Looks good. Thanks! :) ∴ ZX95 [discuss] 14:27, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Unique red links[edit]

Can some master of Wiki-fu generate for me a list of article-space red links that appear precisely one article in all of Wikipedia. I have a theory that a great many such links are likely to be either misspellings or links to topics that will never have an article on them (e.g. "nothing is known about 1890s relief pitcher Billy Joey Bloggs except that as a child he lived on a farm with his younger brother, Joey Jo-Jo Bloggs, who died of consumption at the age of 15"). Cheers! bd2412 T 16:46, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm running this query now, which should do it:
SELECT pl_title FROM pagelinks
INNER JOIN page AS srcpage ON(pl_from = srcpage.page_id)
LEFT OUTER JOIN page AS dstpage ON(pl_title = dstpage.page_title)
WHERE srcpage.page_namespace = 0 AND pl_namespace = 0
AND dstpage.page_title IS NULL
GROUP BY pl_title
It will probably take a while. I'll let you know when it's done. Jackmcbarn (talk) 23:39, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
It is apparently [ done]. Howicus (Did I mess up?) 03:02, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
That's Betacommand's query, which should be the same as mine. For some reason, mine's not done though. Once it is, I'll compare the two. Jackmcbarn (talk) 03:09, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Internal error[edit]

I was getting internal errors just now when trying to access pages such as Special:Contributions/Jimbo_Wales or when editing this section to tell you about it. A sample error message: "[fde6768c] 2014-10-01 20:18:23: Fatal exception of type Scribunto_LuaInterpreterNotFoundError". I've never seen anything like this before. Andrew (talk) 20:30, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

This was a temporary server-side glitch that's since been fixed. Jackmcbarn (talk) 23:21, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Did Wikipedia just burp?[edit]

Suddenly everything on my watch list disappeared and my contributions only showed a selection of my last edits. So I logged out and logged back my contributions are missing a great deal of the work I just did. Odd.--Mark Miller (talk) 22:19, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

And I see why...for some reason, my contributions at Palace Hotel, San Francisco are listed as my old user name User:Amadscientist. Hmmmmm. I wonder if this is about my global account settings and a request at commons to change my name? Let me check out a few things.--Mark Miller (talk) 22:24, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Ok...its doing it again. Logging out for a while. If anyone can look into this it would be nice.--Amadscientist (talk) 22:26, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
In looks like my username has been returned to Amadscientist. I have no idea what is going on but..I am logging out for a while to see if the gremlins and bugs get sorted out.--Amadscientist (talk) 22:29, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm me again. Don't know how long it will last.--Mark Miller (talk) 22:55, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
You're a mad scientist, you figure it out.--v/r - TP 23:19, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
I have done what every good mad scientist has done. I have created a monster. But if the mob comes after me with pitch forks and torches....that will be very sad. Uhm thanks? (I guess)--Mark Miller (talk) 23:37, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

VE Special characters[edit]

I just tried to insert the Greek alphabet into the VE special characters interface page with this edit. That seemed to break the special characters function so I reverted the edit. I can't figure out what was wrong with it though. SpinningSpark 01:25, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Missing commas (on all but the last element). —[AlanM1(talk)]— 02:14, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

How to create non-modal (modeless) message window[edit]

When you save an edit successfully, a small popup modeless (non-modal) window with rounded corners appears saying something like "Your edits have been saved", and it disappears after a few seconds. Can I create these from a user script (e.g. in Javascript)? —[AlanM1(talk)]— 02:07, 2 October 2014 (UTC)