Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Afghanistan–Kosovo relations

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Merge to International reaction to the 2008 declaration of independence by Kosovo. Since I suspect that there will be those in both camps who will be curious as to my reasoning in this closing, I will try to explain. First, I did not consider the three articles that were withdrawn from the AfD - Canada, Japan and ~~Australia~~ Iceland; those articles are closed as Keep. The nomination primarily addressed a lack of sources showing notability for each of the remaining articles to exist in stand-alone form. This complaint was not rebutted by those arguing for the articles to be kept. Instead, the underlying thread of the discussion seemed to be that there was a certain inherent notability to relations between nations. The keep !votes also frequently pointed to the likelihood that the articles would be improved and expanded as sources appeared. I felt that on the whole, the failure of the articles to demonstrate notability through reliable sources indicated that they failed our inclusion guideline to exist as separate articles. The fact that sources were able to be found for the three articles that were withdrawn from the discussion further illustrated that this was not a case in which it was impossible to show notability, but rather one in which there was simply a lack of sources to do so. The reason for merger instead of deletion is that our deletion policy indicates that when an article fails to demonstrate notability, but there is verifiable information, the preference is to merge. The delete !votes as a group did not make a case against merger, but against the articles' separate existence. In the end, it may be little difference as the essential content of these articles appears to be present at the target, however, I will attempt to add to it any significant missing content from the articles being merged. Xymmax ^{So let it be written} _{So let it be done} 01:13, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Afghanistan–Kosovo relations

The articles being nominated describe trivial relations which are otherwise covered at International reaction to the 2008 declaration of independence by Kosovo. Deep searches done on the articles being nominated in this batch have not yielded any materials which would expand on these "relations" beyond the fact that non-Kosovo country recognises Kosovo. There is no evidence of notable relations between Kosovo and the countries listed in terms of political, economic, cultural, trade or transport ties. I have not touched some of the Kosovo-European country relations articles as each of those will need to be looked at on a case by case basis. Russavia ^{Dialogue Stalk me} 03:28, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I am also nominating the following related pages for the reasons presented above:

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Serbia-related deletion discussions. -- Russavia ^{Dialogue Stalk me} 03:35, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Europe-related deletion discussions. -- Russavia ^{Dialogue Stalk me} 03:35, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Delete. Whoa, that's some list--but all the articles are basically the same, and nominator is correct--the 'factness' of the individual articles is covered under the main article referred to, even more comprehensively than on the individual articles--which, I concur, should be deleted. Drmies (talk) 04:06, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Delete. I have to agree with Drmies and the nominator, all of the articles here, for right now, just contain the exact same information as the main topic article. I would say that we have to give this about 10 years before we even consider writing stub-like articles on this topic about relations between Kosovo and foo. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 07:05, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Keep. These articles are stubs and will be improved in the near future. Like Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/France–Kosovo relations, we can improve the articles and save them from deleting. --Turkish Flame ^☎ 07:15, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- For some areas, it will be damn near impossible to add information to. So those will have to be merged and deleted. For some areas, like Japan, I could have a chance to save if I can add information from relations pre-2008. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 07:29, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
  - Turkish Flame, I have been very careful which articles I have nominated for AfD, in that there are no actual relations past the recognition of Kosovo's independence. They can't very well be expanded, no more could Belize-Nauru relations have anything past their diplomatic recognition. Or take Abkhazia–Russia relations; yes, it's a stub at the moment, and will be developed in future, due to the signing of various treaties between the two countries, in addition to the political, military, cultural, economic, and soon transport, ties between the two; so the article has a lot of growth potential; as does the analog South Ossetia-Russia article. However, Abkhazia–Nicaragua relations would not be a viable article due to there being no notable relations beyond Nicaragua's recognition of A & SO. Another editor recently put the Nauru–United Kingdom relations up for AfD, after I removed the prod which was placed based only upon the Kosovo–Nauru relations article, and that survived because there are notable relations between the UK and Nauru; another of the currently existing articles is Nauru–Russia relations; at first glance, again its currently a stub, one wouldn't think there would be notable relations between the two countries, and its welcome to be tested at AfD if need be, but once one digs somewhat, one would find that the Russian mafia funnelled some US$70 billion in the 1990s/early 2000s through the 'banks' in Nauru, and much was written about this and intervention by the Central Bank of Russia, etc. Whilst being a stub is not grounds for deletion, we as a project need to ascertain whether there are any notable relations beyond an ordinary act of recognition of independence, which we can use to build a viable article. It is upon that basis, and that basis alone, that I have nominated the listed articles after searching for those notable relations, whilst at the same time leaving the majority of the European articles alone in order for notable relations, beyond simple recognition, to be found so that they may be expanded into an article the likes of the Kosovo-France article. Not all countries are going to have viable bilateral relations articles for WP, and those that I have nominated unfortunately fall into that category. --Russavia ^{Dialogue Stalk me} 08:24, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Delete without prejudice. If any of these countries do go further than merely recognising the existence of Kosovo as an independent nation, then by all means create the particular article. However, I suspect that most of these bilateral relationships are in the nature of the Kosovo-Nauru relations article, for which the consensus was delete. I agree with the nominator that the European articles will have to be examined one by one, but these can be dealt with in a group. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 07:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Keep- The articles, like the subject itself, are relatively new. They are likely to be expanded in the near future. (In a certain case, there was some info that couldn't be found or deduced elsewhere, and that was the fact that Afghanistan was the first country to recognize the independence)

In my mind, they are not content forks.

Cheers mate!

Λuα ^{(Operibus anteire)} 08:27, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

- The fact that Afghanistan was the first country to recognise Kosovo is covered at International reaction to the 2008 declaration of independence by Kosovo. --Russavia ^{Dialogue Stalk me} 22:48, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Keep - patently silly nomination. Relationships between countries are "big deals" - to take the opening example, it's very easy to find good sources to demonstrate it's notability; see [1] for the first I found. Obviously as Kosovo is a young country, not all relationships it has are enough to write featured articles about - but there's demonstrated notability, and there's encyclopaedic necessity here. WilyD 10:41, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- The article you linked states: "Afghanistan has "no economic or commercial links with Kosovo whatsoever. The reason for the recognition was just to keep America happy....."; trivial information such as the act of recognition of Kosovo independence is covered succinctly at International reaction to the 2008 declaration of independence by Kosovo. --Russavia ^{Dialogue Stalk me} 22:48, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Keep - per the two above -- C D 13:27, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Delete for the reasons listed above, but also throw in a little crystal balling. That some of these articles may end up having a reason to exist in the future is not cause for them to be here now. Hiberniantears (talk) 14:57, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
This should be decided on a case by case basis only. Certainly keep Japan–Kosovo relations as quite notable ([2], [3], J. Gilson, Japan in Kosovo: lessons in the politics of 'complex engagement'. Japan Forum 12.1 (2000) and many more), as well as Canada–Kosovo relations (perhaps even more notable), you might wish to withdraw these particular nominations, not sure about the rest. Colchicum (talk) 15:16, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Keep Relations between countries are important articles, even if they don't adhere to the strict Wikipedia standards. They can, and likely will, get updated and cleaned up with new information. A request to delete them is pointless and entirely unnecessary. --alchaemia (talk) 18:58, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Keep. I believe that the Wikipedia policy on stubs has been to expand them and not to delete them. It is a brilliant idea of the author--whoever he/she may be--to have these articles on Wikipedia. I urge you to keep the articles and contribute to their expansion. I will try to make some improvements when I get the chance.--Getoar (talk) 21:44, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Keep them all There is nothing trivial about these articles. Some of the articles are small and don't contain much information, but we should not delete them for been stubs. They can be expanded in the future when relations develop more. If these articles are to be deleted then every stub on wikipedia should be deleted too. Ijanderson (talk) 22:42, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- Note that they have not been nominated for being stubs, but rather because there are no notable relations between Kosovo and Afghanistan, or the other countries nominated. There are no trade, political, economic, transport, cultureal ties, etc which one could write about at this time. The same way I described above that Belize-Nauru relations would not be a viable article, only due to the fact that beyond the fact they recognise each other as sovereign states, there are no relations of any sort between the two. --Russavia ^{Dialogue Stalk me} 22:54, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Delete all except maybe Japan, Canada and Australia articles. These three have a chance of establishing notability and can be examined again soon. If we were to keep all the rest we might as well create a similar article for every country recognizing Kosovo in the future, a complete waste of space. Greece and Romania which have not recognized yet have more notable relations with Kosovo then most of these countries. These are clear content forks with no obvious prospective for expansion.--Zakronian (talk) 23:36, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Keep all, especially Afghanistan. Afghanistan was the first country to recognize Kosovo, making the article inherently notable. As for the others, relations between countries are inherently notable. I think deeper searches will reveal some level of relations between many of these countries.--Thomas.macmillan (talk) 02:10, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Note 5 minutes of google searches found a page on the Japanese foreign ministry's web site entitled "Japan-Kosovo relations". They've exchanged high level diplomats and politicians! Even if other are deleted, Japan-Kosovo relations MUST be kept in light of this simple source. Also, I've found a reference and slight expanded Iceland-Kosovo relations.--Thomas.macmillan (talk) 02:21, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Recommend closure and relist separately - This is just a "for the record" opinion as at the moment the "keep all" or "keep most" side seems to be prevailing. I can't see how a blanket AFD could work for this. Some of these may be perfectly notable, while others may be too trivial. But it's impossible to judge in this venue. If I had my way I'd close this and relist them separately so they can be judged on their own viability. As I say, this is just for the record as a response to the format of this nomination. 23skidoo (talk) 03:13, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Delete - no reason to exist--Giorgos Kollias (talk) 18:30, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Keep - there maybe some relations between any of these countries at any time, there is no point in deleting them. It is to show what relation they have between each other, even recognising the country will do by minimum requirements. These articles can be expanded in the future hopefully. Mohsin (talk) 18:55, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Merge into article on Kosovo. Ecoleetage (talk) 21:26, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Delete - Kosovo and Metohija has no "relations" with these countries. These nations were just told by their masters to recognize and they followed orders like sheep. Nothing else will happen. These articles are trivial, lack substance, and are a waste of space. --Tocino 23:58, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Comment User:Tocino above has used POV wording in his opposition by referring to Kosovo as "Kosovo and Metohija" and that "they followed orders like sheep", this may be a case of WP:IDONTLIKETHIS and his comments should be removed. Ijanderson (talk) 00:02, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo and Metohija is the official name of the Serbian province. Keeping these worthless articles is a violation of WP:POVFORK. --Tocino 01:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

It is no violation. Please stop your denial of the truth.Max Mux (talk) 16:14, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

What about "they followed orders like sheep"? --ProgressiveAeternus (talk) 16:12, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Withdrawing nomination for Canada, Iceland and Japan only I am withdrawing the nomination for Canada, Iceland and Japan only from this nomination. I am only withdrawing these on the basis of allowing people to find sources to build a proper article, and will revisit them sometime in the future. As to the rest, the nomination stands based upon the reasons given in the nomination. --Russavia ^{Dialogue Stalk me} 01:21, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Keep all Relations between the partially recognized state and other states are as important as state-to-state relations, if not even more on the recognition policy between them. RoyalMate1 02:29, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Delete No assertion of notability in any that I checked, in fact no usefull information at all. Being a stub is not an insurance policy to keep ultimately worthless articles. MickMacNee (talk) 14:32, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Keep - The articles can stay under the stub label, and further sources will be available soon. --ProgressiveAeternus (talk) 16:12, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Delete all and recreate individual pages as soon as there is substantially more to write about the topic than "X–Kosovan relations are foreign relations between X and Kosovo. Kosovo declared its independence from Serbia on 17 February 2008 and X recognized it on DD MMMM YYYY." — Kpalion^(talk) 17:33, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Delete per precedent of Ireland and Nauru--Avala (talk) 19:25, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Keep and expand - I'll admit that the selection of countries here seems quite peculiar but wikipedia is an encyclopedia and nobody would have battered an eyelid if it was a smiliar length article started like United States-Peru relations. We must try to be as neutral as possible and undoubtedly there is potential content to be added on any bilateral relations however "obscure" the countries may appear to us"westerners"Dr. Blofeld (talk) 18:21, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Delete all but the one which contain non trivial information. I don't care if this is Kosovo or not. The last month a whole series of XXX-YYY relations articles appeared. I, myself, have nominated other articles for deletion that have nothing to do with Kosovo. My rationale is this: If there exist N countries, they are N*N(-1)/2 different articles to be created with the vast majority with no special content. If a country X recognises a country Y and they both want have relationships, it's completely normal that X has an embassy in Y and the opposite. Nothing out of the ordinary. I recommend creation of these articles if a non-trivial information exists. The recognition of Kosovo is not that case because we have a whole article doing only this. If so unhappy that our article for the Nauru–Russia relations just says that these countries have ambassadors to each other and the only non trivia relationship is that "Nauru was a financer of the mafia in Russia during the 1990s". Is this about the relationship of the two countries? Conclusion, delete these and recreate if there is really something to be written. -- Magioladitis (talk) 19:06, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't it save time by just requesting they be expanded rather than deletinh and starting again? On your view of wikipedia we ought to delete every stub we have because there is nothing fully adequate currently written about them. Wikipedia is an ongoing development and project, potentially article about any bilateral relations between countries are encyclopedic whatever the country and there are undoubtedly editors who will come along, see a lacking article and try to expand it, thats the principle of wikipedia and how we have grown to date. Prime example France–Kosovo relations. I suggest that somebody google to see what can be written about them, If little or nothing can be added then delete or create redirects to the parent article which is probably the best thing to do at this stage. There are hundreds of other seemingly more pointless articles by country like Togo at the 1996 Summer Olympics, Nauru at the 1996 Summer Olympics etcwhich are similar and probably less could be written about them than these Dr. Blofeld (talk) 20:05, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I certainly don't believe that we have to delete every stub. On the other hand, I am not very confident that we ll have enough feedback to create a good article about Costa Rica–Kosovo relations in the next months for example. It reminds me like when someone asked to create stubs for all villages using a bot. I don't know what happened with that case. I think we have to establish some rules, similar to WP:SCHOOLS! Before establishing this, everyone was adding a school. We must reach a consensus when we think a X-Y relations article should exist. I not we end up with thousands of articles with no content. -- Magioladitis (talk) 20:45, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Or rather, Wikipedia:Why should I care?. P.S. if you didn't know Blofeld's history, the village comment is unintentionally hilarious. MickMacNee (talk) 20:57, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

No I don't know the story, I'm sorry. -- Magioladitis (talk) 21:48, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Delete. Palestine surly doesnt have this type of template. In all fairness, both Kosovo, Palestine, are in the same legal situation.Serbian Defense Forces (talk) 05:32, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Precedent decisions in virtually the same cases:

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Afghanistan–Kosovo relations

[edit] Afghanistan–Kosovo relations

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