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Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution and get assistance to the right place; request for comment, mediation or other noticeboard, if involving other issues. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button Button rediriger.png to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember guidelines and policy when discussing issues. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.

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Case Created Last volunteer edit Last modified
Title Status User Time User Time User Time
Talk:Battle of_Nanking 8Failed CurtisNaito (t) 2014-12-30 08:13:00 Biblioworm (t) 2015-01-26 21:01:00 Biblioworm (t) 2015-01-26 21:01:00
Meghan Trainor 7Closed Lips Are Movin (t) 2015-01-10 10:50:00 Robert McClenon (t) 2015-01-26 03:57:00 Robert McClenon (t) 2015-01-26 03:57:00
Talk:Mounir Majidi 2In Progress Tachfin (t) 2015-01-07 11:16:00 Bejnar (t) 2015-01-14 17:48:00 Chewbakadog (t) 2015-01-19 15:13:00
Talk:Battle of_the_Somme 2In Progress Keith-264 (t) 2015-01-15 23:33:00 Robert McClenon (t) 2015-01-26 14:33:00 Robert McClenon (t) 2015-01-26 14:33:00
Template talk:Infobox_Olympics_Kosovo#STOP REMOVING ALBANIA! 7Closed PjeterPeter (t) 2015-01-21 13:03:00 TransporterMan (t) 2015-01-24 22:54:00 TransporterMan (t) 2015-01-24 22:54:00
Talk:Battlestar Galactica_(2004_TV_series)#Notice_Of_Dispute_Resolution_Regarding_.27International_Co-Production.27_Issue 2In Progress Twobells (t) 2015-01-22 12:02:00 TransporterMan (t) 2015-01-26 14:29:00 TransporterMan (t) 2015-01-26 14:29:00
Talk:Pope Joan 1New 189.8.107.196 (t) 2015-01-24 17:25:00 TransporterMan (t) 2015-01-25 19:43:00 Ian.thomson (t) 2015-01-26 17:07:00
Talk:Ahmad Sanjar 1New HistoryofIran (t) 2015-01-24 20:28:00 TransporterMan (t) 2015-01-24 23:13:00 HistoryofIran (t) 2015-01-24 23:35:00
Northern Province, Sri Lanka 2In Progress Obi2canibe (t) 2015-01-24 20:48:00 None n/a Obi2canibe (t) 2015-01-26 19:45:00
Talk:Malik-Shah I 1New HistoryofIran (t) 2015-01-25 21:39:00 None n/a HistoryofIran (t) 2015-01-25 21:39:00
Last updated by DRN clerk bot (talk) at 21:30, 26 January 2015 (UTC)



Contents

Current disputes[edit]

Talk:Battle of_Nanking[edit]

Pictogram voting delete.svg – Closed as failed. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by CurtisNaito on 08:13, 30 December 2014 (UTC).

Meghan Trainor[edit]

Symbol comment vote.svg – General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Lips Are Movin on 10:50, 10 January 2015 (UTC).

Talk:Mounir Majidi[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Tachfin on 11:16, 7 January 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

In the article Mounir Majidi I have objected to an edit because:

  • It removed multiple references (user alternatively argued that the links are dead, not in English therefore shouldn't be used or because "wikileaks' diplomatic cables were not "official statements", but informal communications between US agents.").
  • It removed a section titled "controversy". This section only contained a reference to a corruption allegation case. Supported by two references.
  • It removed a navigation template and the external link in the external links section and placing instead a "this section is empty" template
  • Changing the birth date despite this being referenced to an official document from the Luxemburg company registry. (Apparently without bothering to check that ref)
  • Removing positions from the infobox and changing the predecessor/successor or the office start date without any explanation.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Discussion on talk, reminding of the relevant WP policies related to dead links and references.

How do you think we can help?

By explaining some policies such is those related to references, dead links, date format, deletion of supported statements.


Summary of dispute by Chewbakadog[edit]

Thank you for taking the time to review this dispute. Let me briefly sum up the situation :

  • I suggested a new version to the Mounir Majidi page with fresh facts --> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mounir_Majidi&oldid=641378607
  • user Tachfin, very involved on all Morocco-related pages, and with a strong bias on all of his contributions, undid everything, despite the freshness and addition of value my version provided. He doesn't accept an ounce of my version, but rather discards it bluntly, with a very agressive attitude
  • user Tachfin argues that I am removing a negative sentence sourced with Wikileaks cables, but it's actually a positive sentence (Majidi is in the top 3 most influential people of his country, that's pretty flattering if you ask me). I don't mind the source (Wikileaks dead link), but there is no need to flatter the guy this way, mostly in the intro.
  • Regarding the controversy, my argument is as follow : Majidi was accused by one journalist, who seems to be an opponent to the regime (Bemchemsi), in the opinion section of one national newspapers. The other source is a deadlink ([21]). According to WP:SOURCE, If a news organization publishes an opinion piece in a blog, attribute the statement to the writer, and then Tiny-minority views need not be included, except in articles devoted to them. We have here the point of view of one person (Bemchemsi) published in the opinion section of one newspaper, which is a WP:YESPOV and needs to be removed. Also, a "controversy" section is created merely for this YESPOV, which is WP:UNDUE and needs to be removed.
  • Tachfin's arguments that I removed the external links section, that the dates weren't properly formatted, that I removed a source for the birth date even though there is no conflict on his birth date, or about the infobox (and I followed his advice in the latets version of my version [22]), all those arguments do not justify undoing my edits.

Overall, I am accusing Tachfin of WP:ATTACK : Tachfin is agressive, has the attitude of WP:BULLY, only accepts his own version of the page. He is full of accusations regarding Majidi, but doesn't bother to justify them. I did a bit of research and found that Tachfin created the pages Zakaria Moumni (a moroccan kickboxer accusing Majidi of torturing him of something), Yassine Mansouri, head of Moroccan CIA (where he puts a link to Majidi's page for no significant reason), Ali Anouzla (page with accusations of corruptions by Majidi)... If I didn't know any better, I would say that he has a personal thing against that Majidi guy... Thank you for hearing my POV. --Chewbakadog (talk) 10:39, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Mounir Majidi discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Hi, I'm a DRN volunteer. I'd like to start this discussion with Wikipedia's guidance on criminal allegations. Please try to confine discussion to the specific topic. Thanks. --Bejnar (talk) 18:28, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Criminal allegations[edit]

Charges[edit]

Is but no trial was brought against him in Morocco accurate? Is but no criminal charges have been filed against him in Morocco also accurate?

I think it's accurate, I don't see any trial mentioned anywhere... --Chewbakadog (talk) 11:01, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
Guideline[edit]

What relevance does the guidance provided at WP:CRIMINAL, specifically Note: A living person accused of a crime is presumed not guilty unless and until this is decided by a court of law. Editors must give serious consideration to not creating an article on an alleged perpetrator when no conviction is yet secured. have to this article and how the material is to be presented? --Bejnar (talk) 18:28, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

No court of law has pronounced majidi guilty of anything. Our issue is that one journalist made accusations on a french national newspaper, but no court (at least that I know of through multiple google searches), whether it be in France or in Morocco, has ever made him guilty of anything. --Chewbakadog (talk) 11:01, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
Le roi prédateur[edit]

In the context of corruption charges can the book, Graciet, Catherine and Laurent, Eric (2012). Le roi prédateur: Main basse sur le Maroc. Paris: Seuil. ISBN 978-2-02-106463-6. , review here, be considered to be a reliable source? --Bejnar (talk) 21:15, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Maybe, I've never read it... However, the review doesn't mention anything criminal about majidi. --Chewbakadog (talk) 11:01, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
Demain[edit]

In the context of corruption charges can the magazine Demain, Soundouss, Badr (11 February 2014). "Mounir Majidi veut censurer les critiques sur Youtube". Demain (in French). , be considered to be a reliable source? --Bejnar (talk) 17:48, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Demain is a satyrical newspaper, kind of like Charlie Hebdo in France... --Chewbakadog (talk) 15:13, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Challenge[edit]

In the context of corruption charges can the Moroccan weekly economic review Challenge (Casablanca), and its 31 May 2012 article "Roi du Maroc et du business" (no electronic copy available) be considered a reliable source? See, e.g. the 15 May 2013 Lakome newspaper article "Justice : la contre-offensive de Majidi" here. --Bejnar (talk) 17:48, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I am unable to answer this, as I have no access to this article. --Chewbakadog (talk) 15:13, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Wikileaks[edit]

Although the information on Wikileaks can be considered a primary source, does its reporting in secondary media such the newspaper El País and the magazine Yabiladi [here, alter the contention? --Bejnar (talk) 17:48, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Not sure it is a reliable source: there's an acknowledgement at the end of the article confessing that readers need to be cautious with the info from this Wikileaks cable because it has not been double-checked by the editorial team. --Chewbakadog (talk) 15:13, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Lakome article[edit]

Do either of you have the title or the date of the article that appeared in the Lakome newspaper that is currently a deadlink at FN11? --Bejnar (talk) 21:36, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't, but on wikileaks.org, we find this ([23]) :

Authenticity and Modernity, Mohamed Mounir Al Majidi who is the head of the King's private secretariat, and the King himself. "To have discussions with anyone else would be a waste of time"

and :

ONA's VP reportedly told his interlocutors that Morocco's major investment decisions were effectively made by three individuals: the King, Fouad El Himma the former Deputy Minister of Interior who now leads the Palace-backed Party of Authenticity and Modernity, and Mohamed Mounir Al Majidi, who is the head of the King's private secretariat and his principal financial advisor.

I don't find it really noteworthy, because not backed up by any concrete example ... --Chewbakadog (talk) 11:01, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Public figure[edit]

How does the Wikipedia policy on living public figures, WP:PUBLICFIGURE, specifically: In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources, and BLPs should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article – even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out. apply in this case? --Bejnar (talk) 18:40, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that was my primary argument, there is only one journalist making the allegations of corruption, in an opinion section of a newspaper. --Chewbakadog (talk) 11:01, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Birth date[edit]

Is Mounir Majidi's date of birth still an issue? --Bejnar (talk) 19:07, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

It's never been for me... The french wikipedia page says 19th january (fr:Mounir_Majidi), but a lot of sources say January 10th ([24]), so I guess we can go for 10th. --Chewbakadog (talk) 11:01, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Template Mohammed VI[edit]

Does the template {{Mohammed VI}} belong at the end of the article? Please cite appropriate Wikipedia policy, Wikipedia guidelines or even Wikipedia essays that support your position. If you have no cited Wikipedia support for your position, please state the philosophical/encyclopedic basis for your position. --Bejnar (talk) 21:26, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I think we can keep this template, I had not even noticed that I had removed it in my version. --Chewbakadog (talk) 11:01, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Influential[edit]

Does the fact that Majidi is seen by some diplomats (and possibly others) as highly influential (3rd most influential ...) contribute towards his notability? --Bejnar (talk) 21:31, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Majidi seems to have a lot of influence in Morocco, but I think that all the press about him is a more reliable notability ranking factor than anonymous diplomats. --Chewbakadog (talk) 11:01, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Battle of_the_Somme[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Keith-264 on 23:33, 15 January 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Battle of the Somme A difference of opinion about language in the lead section between User:Thomask0 and me has got a little entrenched and several other editors have joined in, generating more heat than light.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Discussion on the talk page until it went in circles and attracted other editors. My revert of a Thomask0 edit (there have been some frivolous edits of the article reverted by me and other editors in recent months) was reverted, re-reverted and representations of points of view eventually followed on the talk page, which have got nowhere. At present two more editors have joined in and The ed17 has intervened (warning me but not the others).

How do you think we can help?

Clarify with each editor that they are applying the same criteria re: edits and discussions, clarifying with each editor that Article layout priorities and due weight are being given and gaining a neutral opinion over good faith.

Summary of dispute by Thomask0[edit]

In my opinion, the dispute centers on the accuracy, style, and appropriate position in the article of certain points. The article is it stands at the time of the edit lock is pretty much as it should be as far as I'm concerned. Comparing it with the prior state, I have the following criticisms of the contested matter:

  1. The contested matter makes an unsourced claim; namely that it is significant to the article's overall subject that certain English-only speakers are unable to access certain non-English documents. There is no mention of how many such people there are, nor who they may be, nor of why their language and/or cultural position is significant.
  2. The above claim is made using extremely obscure phrasing -- "anglophone monoglots" -- obscure to the extent that the phrase has had to be wikilinked. The phrase in question produces only 500 hits on a General Google search, 53 on a Google Books search, and zero on a Google Ngram search. Given the size of Google's search bases, those numbers are extremely small. This problem is made worse by the fact that in the context of the matter concerned, the phrase "English-speakers" is a suitable and easily understood alternative.
  3. Overall, even if the above two points were corrected, the contested matter itself is not sufficiently significant to merit a position in the article's lead. As it stands (with the material moved further down), the lead gives an accurate precis of the article's subject. Moving the contested material into a dedicated "Historiography" section, with removal of the obscure prose and either removal of unsourced propositions or provision of sources, solves the problem

Summary of dispute by The ed17[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I am involved in this only in my capacity as an administrator. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 23:40, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Battle of_the_Somme[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

First statement by volunteer moderator[edit]

I am willing to serve as the volunteer moderator. I don't claim to know anything about the Battle of the Somme other than that it was part of World War One and was extremely bloody. I will state a few ground rules. Statements should be concise and civil, and should focus on article content, not conduct or contributors. What does each of the parties want with respect to the article? What sections of the article are involved, and what are the content questions? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:07, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Eighth statement by volunteer moderator[edit]

I asked whether a sentence could be added to the lede section of the article, that the battle has been controversial, at least in English-language historiography, since 1916. One editor says yes. The other says no.

It is now proposed that the mention of English-language historiography be deleted, and that a statement be added that the battle has been controversial since 1916 over its necessity, significance, and effect. That sounds, to the moderator, who hasn't read the historiography, like a compromise. Will the editors agree to: "The battle has been controversial since 1916, over its necessity, significance and effect"?

Third Opinion has been mentioned. The Third Opinion procedure is not applicable after moderated dispute resolution begins, but the opinions of other editors are welcome.

We now have at least three options. First, if the editors agree to the mention of the controversy, without reference to the English language, that becomes the language of the lede. Second, an RFC can be published. Third, I can do a General Close. I am optimistic that the third option will not be necessary.

Robert McClenon (talk) 20:10, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Eighth statement by User:Keith-264[edit]

"The battle has been controversial since 1916, especially in English-language writing, over its necessity, significance and effect" This is the minimum I will accept.Keith-264 (talk) 21:03, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Eighth statement by User:Thomask0[edit]

I agree to the mention of the controversy, without reference to the English language. Thomask0 (talk) 20:58, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Eighth statement by User:Rjensen[edit]

Yes, I can agree with "The battle has been controversial since 1916, especially in English-language writing, over its necessity, significance and effect" Rjensen (talk) 02:59, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Ninth statement by volunteer moderator[edit]

In the absence of agreement as to whether "especially in English-language writing" should be included in the sentence about the controversy over the battle, I have opened a Request for Comments at the article talk page. Please provide your arguments in favor of or against inclusion of the phrase as the rationale for your Support or Oppose !votes. (I wasn't able to provide those arguments. I am not an expert on the historiography of World War One.) Robert McClenon (talk) 17:28, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Ninth statement by User:Keith-264[edit]

Even a brief acquaintance with the non-English-language writing about the battle where passages have been translated or second-hand commentary has been written by the likes of Hew Strachan Chichele Professor of the History of War who even uses the term "monoglots", Sheldon (a German speaker), Sheffield etc, demonstrates that the controversy about the battle is peculiarly English. Ignoring this basic fact when it hangs over English-language-writing like a shroud, is mistaken and will add to the deterioration in the quality of the article. I notice that the passage has already been edited and some of the sense lost. Keith-264 (talk) 21:56, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Ninth statement by User:Thomask0[edit]

Oppose: The caveat that the historiographical controversy (over necessity etc.) exists "especially in English-language writing", while not necessarily false, is itself controversial. Even in the context of this dispute, sources have been offered to back both positions in what is effectively a "controversy over the controversy". And so if the "English-language" claim over the historiographical controversy is mentioned, then accuracy would demand we also mention that the "English-language" claim is itself controversial. In other words, we'd need something like the following:

"The battle has been controversial since 1916, over its necessity, significance and effect. It is claimed by some commentators [citations] that the controversy exists especially in English-language writings, however that claim itself is controversial [counter citations]."

That serves to underline the fact that the "English-language" claim is not a claim about the Battle of the Somme (e.g. "Lots of men died"). It is not even a claim about a claim about the Battle (e.g. "With respect to the fact that lots of men died, there is controversy over necessity, significance and effect"). It is, instead, a claim about a claim about a claim about the Battle ("With respect to the controversy over necessity, significance and effect of the fact that lots of men died, there is controversy over the significance of the lack of English translations of French and German documents"). Given that Wikipedia is a general encyclopedia, that is clearly too detailed a point, on too minor and editorially controversial an issue, to merit inclusion in the lede. If it needs to appear, then it (and the controversy around it) can certainly do so elsewhere in the Article. I would not object, however, to inclusion in the lede of the non-controversial, more significant, and clear-cut assertion that the necessity etc of the battle has been and remains controversial. The previously proposed wording is an example of what I would support:

"The battle has been controversial since 1916, over its necessity, significance and effect".

Thomask0 (talk) 18:42, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

PS: Just to pre-empt a possible misconception. It is of course conceivable that the bulk of commentary on the Somme has indeed been produced in English, given the dominance of that language in general. And so in that case it may literally be the case that the historiographical controversy exists "especially in English-language writing", but only in the way that commentary on anything in which the UK or US have a prominent role will stand a good chance of existing "especially in English-language writing". If that were all that were at stake then while the "English-language writing" caveat may be true, it would be trivial and unnecessary. It would be like saying "The battle has been controversial since 1916, especially in writing by authors over the age of 18, over its necessity, significance and effect." But of course that is not the point at stake here. This specific aspect of the dispute is really whether the overall historiographical controversy (over necessity etc) is in some way represented differently by British commentators when compared against their French/German counterparts specifically because those of the former who can read only English are unable to get access to certain non-English writings. My position is that that assertion, however stated, is too controversial and too minor to go into the article's lede. Thomask0 (talk) 20:39, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Ninth statement by User:Rjensen[edit]

The German and French authors do not say much one way or the other about the British battle. Somme did not have a major impact on the psychology of Germans or the French (or the Americans). The battle was a major psychological shock to the British (and to the Australians and Canadians) from which the civilians never wavered--it was and is today a central element in their interpretation of the horrors of the war. The revisionists argue the generals did the best they could and therefore are not donkeys. That argument has not resonated very well with public. The idea that the British generals in 1916 2 years into the war still did not understand modern warfare is a shocking admission by Revisionist historians; add to it the notion that the same generals failed to use their new gained knowledge for two more years, and the British generals look pretty stupid. Rjensen (talk) 02:48, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Tenth statement by volunteer moderator[edit]

An RFC is in progress as to the qualifying phrase about the language of historiography. We do not need to discuss that issue further on this board. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:30, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Are there any other issues about this article that need discussion, or should I close the dispute resolution as about to be resolved by the RFC? Robert McClenon (talk) 00:30, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

User:Keith-264 - Since the article is not protected at this time, you can revert the edit (the removal of a flag), but use an appropriate edit summary and discuss on the article talk page. If the editor who removed the flag wants to discuss, we can add this to the topics for moderated discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:33, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Tenth statement by User:Keith-264[edit]

OK but User:Omnisome‎ has committed what looks like a nuisance edit, can we remove it or do we go through you? Keith-264 (talk) 08:58, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Tenth statement by User:Thomask0[edit]

Tenth statement by User:Rjensen[edit]

Talk:Battlestar Galactica_(2004_TV_series)#Notice_Of_Dispute_Resolution_Regarding_.27International_Co-Production.27_Issue[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Twobells on 12:02, 22 January 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Battlestar Galactica 2004 was a Anglo-American co-production as reflected by the numerous legitimate citations, editors have employed increasingly desperate measures to prevent the article reflecting that. They have employed Original Research, disputed straight forward citations and after extensive discussion refuse to be guided to neutrality and revert any edit that includes citations confirming the show was a UK-US international production. One editor has then taken upon themselves to follow my edits around wikipedia onto another Anglo-American TV co-production and started reverting long-standing consensual articles there also.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Everything, talk history discussion, users page discussion and 3rd party discussion including admin. I agreed with admin to come to DR to resolve this nasty situation before it becomes even worse. I admit to stupidly losing my temper and committed along with other editors 3RR at one point, luckily admin agreed I was working towards article neutrality rather than being NPOV.

How do you think we can help?

I hope that DRN moderators can review the evidence and determine a solution as discussion is getting nowhere, I wish the article to reflect the UK's contribution as reflected by the citations, not NOR and that's it. Not a lot seemingly but one impossible to resolve without moderation it seems. I would also like to get a policy ruling at some point on international co productions and how they are presented on Wikipedia.

Summary of dispute by DrMargi[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Drovethrughosts[edit]

Your intention of what exactly you want in the article is still very unclear, which makes this difficult to resolve. When you added the co-production content to the article, I did not disagree, I simply tweaked it for the better ([26][27]). You talk about NPOV, but you continually tried to push Sky1 and the UK's involvement as if it were more than the main series producer, Universal Television, by always placing their names first, giving the impression of more importance, which is false ([28][29]). As long as you're fine with this version of the article (which mentions the co-production, but in factual manner), we should be good. Other notes: the UK is not country of origin with the U.S. (though I'm still uncertain if you're still fighting for this), because the UK or Sky1 holds no copyright to this series in any way–the copyright holder to BSG is Universal, which I've said several times to you, but you never acknowledge this piece of information in the previous discussions. As for the lead, the only way for it to read "is a co-production television series" (or whatever wording you want) would be if the Sky1's involvement was for the entire series run, but it wasn't (it was one season out of four). Anything else would be giving more credit where it isn't due. On a personal note, I'm going on vacation for a week in two days, so I don't plan on any further involvement with this. I've said everything I've had to say on subject, all my comments can be read at Talk:Battlestar Galactica (2004 TV series)#US/UK co-production revisited and Talk:Battlestar Galactica (2004 TV series)#Notice Of Dispute Resolution Regarding 'International Co-Production' Issue. Drovethrughosts (talk) 14:49, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't say consensuses has been reached just yet, because I am not in favor of it saying co-production in very first sentence. The series is of American origin, thus that's how it should be described. It can be in a separate sentence like I how I had originally, which would read something like, "The series was produced by Universal Television, with Sky1 co-producing the first season". The UK is listed in the infobox under "first show in" and Sky1 could be added as a producer with the seasons it produced in parentheses; however, the UK does belong in country of origin. Drovethrughosts (talk) 16:27, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Twobells[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I must say that you Drovethrughosts have been the more reasonable editor and that it is my belief we can work together. Actually what I want is simple and always has been, the attempted sophistry has never come from my side, essentially it is extremely straight forward, that like all other wiki co-production tv shows the info-box and lede reflect the contribution, that's it, nothing confusing about that and never has been. The issue isn't about copyright, the issue is about international co productions, in that production companies produce a tv show together as reflected by the citations and the info-box which is standard wiki practice on all international co-production TV shows. I have never wanted to push one network over another, all I've ever wanted is the article to reflect the citations, that BSG 2004 originally was a Anglo-American co production. Yes, the lede should read 'co-production' not mash-up country abbreviations like 'UK-US' and have UK, US in the info-box (that is purely alphabetical not pov!) However, I am more than happy for the info box to read 'US' first if thats the issue? Twobells (talk) 15:44, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

  • note, it looks like consensus has been reached with one editor at this very late stage, it is my hope that Drmargi can agree, resolving the issue. Twobells (talk) 16:09, 22 January 2015 (UTC)


Talk:Battlestar Galactica_(2004_TV_series)#Notice_Of_Dispute_Resolution_Regarding_.27International_Co-Production.27_Issue discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Coordinator's comments: Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard. I am neither "taking" nor opening this case for discussion at this time. Please refrain from discussing the case until such time as if and when a volunteer chooses to accept the case and opens it for discussion. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:31, 22 January 2015 (UTC) (current DRN coordinator)

Volunteer's comments[edit]

Hello, I'm pcfan500. I accept this case. pcfan500talk|my contribs 10:04, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

After looking at the evidence, I think that maybe User:Twobells's addition of the fact that the show was cancelled should be referenced with a reliable source. Don't re-add it until you have a reliable resource. References are required on Wikipedia. pcfan500talk|my contribs 10:48, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't think that any POV pushing occurred, just some unsourced edits. I agree with Twobell's idea of putting the TV studios in alphabetical order (this improves the flow).


Suggestions[edit]

  • Twobells, you keep saying that the show was cancelled. Please give a source. Don't re do the edit. Just reply with the source and I will tell you if it's fine.
  • It doesn't matter with putting whichever TV names first. It does not really give an impression of importance or violate NPOV.
  • Drmargi, you haven't given a summary of the dispute; please do so. Thanks.
  • Please reply here with suggestions or what you think about these. Remember that dispute resolution is about compromise. pcfan500talk|my contribs 14:58, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
The show being cancelled or ending is not a problem, I have no idea where that idea came from or how you viewed that as an issue, as it was never mentioned here. Production companies are usually listed per credit order, like everyone else in the infobox (cast, producers, etc.); thus should be consistent. And yes, being listed above another does imply more importance, that's why we list actors per their billing order and not alphabetical. I feel my comprise above if the best way to go, as it adds what Twobells wants, but presents it in the most factual way possible. Drovethrughosts (talk) 13:40, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
OK, User:Drovethrughosts, yes, we will list them per billing order, as is common with movies. We wont be adding the fact that the show is cancelled unless we have a source (WP:No original research). Reply back if you agree. And I would like User:Twobells to respond as I haven't heard from this user regarding the possible compromises.

Given the above, I have contacted TransporterMan and requested he review the comments and competence of the volunteer for this case. Pcfan500 is an editor of less than three months' experience, far too soon to be handling a case such as this, which should have been declined. His apparent inability to understand the nature of the issue at hand, much less to see that Twobells has both misstated consensus and has filed this case in an attempt to get around consensus on the article, both of which are sufficient cause to close the case, is extremely troubling. Moreover he appears unaware of the practices regarding discussion of editors v. the subject, and has done nothing to remove Twobells' personal attacks in the filing. Finally, he/she appears to think they can simply issue mandates as to what will be done, not act as a mediator indicates he/she is not competent to handle this case. I will not participate in this discussion under the current conditions, nor will I be bound by any outcome resulting from it. --Drmargi (talk) 00:57, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I will leave this case and I will gain more experience before coming back, OK? pcfan500talk|my contribs 01:43, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Coordinator's note: I note the volunteer's withdrawal and will seek a new volunteer. Please discontinue all further discussion (except at the article talk page) until if and when a new volunteer takes the case. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:02, 26 January 2015 (UTC) (current DRN coordinator) PS: If Drmargi intends to participate here, it would encourage a replacement volunteer to take the case if s/he would make a summary in the space provided above. I did not mean to exclude that by asking for discussion to cease. — TransporterMan (TALK) 14:29, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

First statement by replacement moderator[edit]

I will be taking over moderation of this dispute. I have no particular knowledge of this show; it is the job of the participants to inform me about the show and the issues. I have no special authority or power, and cannot resolve the dispute, but have the job of trying to help the participants resolve the dispute. (If you want the moderator to take "your side", dispute resolution does not work that way.) I will insist that participants discuss content and not other contributors, and that participants be civil and concise. Without those preconditions, this case cannot be resolved. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:56, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I have some opening questions. I understand that there is a dispute about whether the show should be listed as US, or as US-UK. Would each participant please state what their opinion is, and why they hold that opinion? It appears that there may be an issue about whether the show was cancelled. Is there an issue? If so, will each participant please state what their position is?

Are there any other issues that require moderated discussion?

Robert McClenon (talk) 21:56, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

First statement by User:Twobells[edit]

First statement by User:Drmargi[edit]

First statement by User:Drovethrughosts[edit]

Talk:Pope Joan[edit]

Symbol wait old.png – New discussion.
Filed by 189.8.107.196 on 17:25, 24 January 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The fact that one Catholic pope in the Dark Ages would have been a woman in disguise (commonly referred to as Pope Joan) has always been a controversial one - but this article's non-neutral POV makes it seem like no such controversy exists, and gives the Catholic Church's current official position as a true, undispustable fact.

It's a fact that it was widely believed for centuries, including by catholics, that the female Pope had existed - a statue depicting her, labeled Pope Joan, has been displayed among other Pope statues in the Italy's Siena Cathedral until 1700 (when the then Pope ordered its removal); she is depicted in works of art, theatre and literature from all around Europe, and even though the Vatican has finally stated that she was only a fictitious legend, she continues to this day to attract the interest of millions around the world, including authors like Peter Stanford and Donna W. Cross who deffend she might have existed.

As controversial a topic as it is, the article on it should of course reflect that - but, as can be seen throughout all the article's history, it's been noted for years, by many different users, that its full content reflects purely the Catholic Church's POV and was anything but neutral. However, an active team of engaged editors has through the article's history always been very quick to counter-edit any such edits, threatening the dissonant voices with bans and until now preventing even a broader discussion regarding the neutrality of the article from taking place.

A neutral article needs at least mentioning who deffends her,what they argue, even if one then counterbalances each of them with supposed explanations and concludes that there's not sufficient proof that she ever existed (what is NOT at all the same thing as saying that there's sufficient proof that she did NOT exist). People have tried doing so/making the article neutral for years, but each of their editions has always been reverted without real discussion.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Ongoing debate in the appropriate Talk page. The discussion, however, is going in circles and nowhere, since the users who have for years edited out all mentions that do not follow 100% the Catholic Church's POV will simply discredit every single source that contradicts them as being not even worthy of having their existences acknowledged.

How do you think we can help?

It'd be helpful if simply more people were to read the topic, read the Talk page and then comment on whether they find the current text neutral. The topic itself offends some people's personal convictions, and it happens that these are almost the only people who care about the topic enough as to write on it and discuss it and they end up tiring away the less engaged casual passers-by. Simply having more neutral outsiders read, comment and rewrite the text in a neutral POV should solve the issue.

Summary of dispute by Farsight001[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Cuchullain[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

189.8.107.196's summary shows that much of this dispute is behavioral, not content-based. The accusations that there's a conspiracy of editors enforcing the "the Catholic Church's POV" and quashing all discussions are totally baseless and out of line. Whatever neutrality concerns exist in the article just get clouded over by the anon's edit warring, comments about contributors, and battleground behavior.
The anon elides the fact that their complaints largely focus on the lead section, and that the rest of the article is in a poor state. Rather than fix the body, they've initiated an edit war over the intro. None of the article's problems will be resolved this way, or any way beside rewriting the body with the best available sources.
This has caused considerable confusion. Below, 177.76.41.164 writes that editors are "deliberately omitting" certain facts, such as details about Siena Cathedral's bust of Joan. There's been some dispute over how this material (which I added) is handled in the intro, but despite 177.x's claims, the details are already in the article body. Again, what the article needs is an overhaul in the body.
I tried to rewrite the intro using standard academic works on Pope Joan. These sources speak to a consensus among scholars that Pope Joan is a myth. There are a few writers who still claim she was real, but they're basically a WP:FRINGE viewpoint. As I said on talk, Diana Cross is a fiction writer, and Peter Stanford isn't a historian, he's a journalist. More to the point, Stanford's book on Joan has been harshly received by historians.[30][31] It can't be used to override cited claims from respected sources.
As a final point, Scolaire says that some folks want to keep out all mention of Stanford and Cross. This isn't true. It's perfectly fine to include them in the article body (with the necessary explanation to how they're viewed by the experts). Adding them to the introduction, however, is WP:UNDUE WEIGHT. Again, what we need is better treatment of the article body.--Cúchullain t/c 22:12, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by 191.222.109.81[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Kansas_Bear[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by 177.76.41.164[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

The page could indeed be rewritten in a more neutral way. I don't know much about the topic itself, but as others have said, when you dedicate some time going through the page's edits history you end up finding out a lot of valid and pertinent and documented data that indeed was removed from the article for no given reason, and all said edits are indeed always favoring a position that the story is complete bogus. I myself quite think it is actually bogus, but rather than allowing me to reach that conclusion after giving me all the history of the issue and even the conspiracy theories, the page indeed shoves into the reader's face not gently at all what the editors/writers' point of view is, deliberately omitting even interesting facts regarding the story which, even if not proving the conspiratiotists' theories, isn't well regarded by the Vatican (like the fact that there was a precise date when a Pope declared Pope Joan not to have existed; and the fact that it was only after that and at the Pope's request that Joan's bust was removed from the papal busts collection at the Catholic Cathedral of Siena; also, there aren't mentions or images to the numerous images of a female figure in full papal style, Papal tiara included, to this day displayed even in the Vatican, which, even if having different explanations, are indeed one of the arguments used by the conspirationists.

Simply put, the OP does seem to have sort of a valid point when saying that the page's edits history does reveal engaged activism / permanent watch by a group of users who seem to be way more interested in deffending the current official position of the Church than in having a good Wikipedia article.

And finally, the fact that the opponent editors managed to get the OP banned from Wikipedia for no reason other than reverting unwelcome edits (well referenced and pertinent edits the OP had made in other sections of the article that were not directly related to the disputed topic were deleted without justification by his opponents among the edit war) kind of adds weight to his/her accusations of censorship... 177.76.41.164 (talk) 19:10, 25 January 2015 (UTC)


Summary of dispute by Scolaire[edit]

One side wants to state as fact that there is an ongoing controversy over the existence of Pope Joan, citing Peter Stanford and Donna Cross. I don't see any ongoing controversy in the real world, and those two authors are not suitable sources for that claim, because they are not academic historians. However, the other side does not want those authors' views to be considered at all, which I think is going to the other extreme. It was a revelation to me, on reading the reverted, but sourced, edits, to find that there are people notable enough to be published who say they believe in the legend at least to some extent. Therefore I think it is worth a brief mention. This is consistent with WP:DUE. It would also, without making it appear that there is a lively academic debate going on, at least answer the people who say that the minority point of view is being censored, or that the article is written solely from a Catholic Church POV. I am not arguing that she existed, only that is worth mentioning that a couple of people do. Scolaire (talk) 23:14, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Wetman[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Ian.thomson[edit]

  • (Previously uninvolved non-volunteer observers): "The fact that," "widely believed," and borderline accusations of Catholic censorship... A completely non-neutral summary that argues against WP:GEVAL. I'm seeing one side cite a number of academic sources, and the other citing tabloids. Please snow close this. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:41, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
Moved at TransporterMan's request, as I've started responding at the talk page. I stand by my observation that one side is citing academia, while the other is citing tabloids, conspiracy theories, and innuendo of Catholic censorship. I can only find one user involved who identifies as Catholic, who is not listed here because that involvement is only one post that sticks to the policies and guidelines. If anything, the legendary side is mostly users who would be sympathetic to the idea of Pope Joan but realize that it's fantasy. While I agree that that a few non-historians insist that Joan existed (which would be a few sentences later in the article, dismissed as WP:FRINGE -- Oh, wait, the article already does that), that's different from downplaying (if not whitewashing) the clearly cited academic consensus and the addition of badly sourced revisionist claims to the lede. As with other fringe authors, I do not mind including Stanford if properly labelled as a non-historian and presented alongside any counter-arguments directed at his work. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:07, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Pope Joan discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • (Another previously uninvolved non-volunteer observation): I gave the article a *quick* lookover, so take this with as much salt as you like. At the surface it seems balanced and gives the general message that Pope Joan is fictional but that there was a time when it was believed otherwise. However, a second pass with more attention left me with the slight smell of failure of WP:NPOV (in the direction of a vague desire to shove the "legend" in the face of any passing Catholics). There's a fair sprinkle of what I think is weaseling e.g. "..said to have reigned...", "Most versions of her story...", "The one most commonly cited...", " It has been speculated ..." and so on. And there are multiple assertions with no RS offered whatsoever. Little snippets of colloquial speech also raise a grin: "during the pontificate of 'Pope Agnes ... [the Church] got on quite well." (emphasis mine).
I don't like that "legendary" in the first sentence. Judging by the rest of the article, it looks like the adjective being sought after is supposed to say that the stories are false, but "legendary" does not necessarily convey that. "Mythical" would be no better. Perhaps the simple "fictional" would work?
Finally, I'd also like to see some sources for the first part of the lead's penultimate sentence: "The legend was universally accepted as true until the 16th century, when a widespread debate among Catholic and Protestant writers called the story into question; various writers noted the implausibly long gap between Joan's supposed lifetime and her first appearance in texts". It's not clear that the two sources already provided are covering not just the assertion that the story is no longer accepted, but also the assertion that it once was "universally accepted". Thomask0 (talk) 23:45, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Volunteer's notes 2: I'm still not taking this or opening it for discussion, but some comments are in order:

  • @ the previously uninvolved non-volunteer observers: Thank you for your comments, which are entirely welcome here, but if there is any possibility whatsoever that you're going to continue in this discussion here at DRN or at the article talk page, please list yourselves as parties, create an initial summary section for yourself, and move your comments there.
  • @ the IP editors listed as parties and the IP editor who made an entry in Cuchullain's summary section, above : If you are a user with an account and just accidentally edited without logging in, please remove the IP listing from the user list, substitute your username if it's not already listed, and only edit in this discussion while logged in. If, on the other hand, if you're an IP-only editor, please consider creating an account and doing the same. It's really confusing to the volunteers when a number of IP editors are involved in the discussion.

Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:43, 25 January 2015 (UTC) (current DRN coordinator)

Talk:Ahmad Sanjar[edit]

Symbol wait old.png – New discussion.
Filed by HistoryofIran on 20:28, 24 January 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The problem started like this: I expanded the Ahmad Sanjar article a bit by adding some information - some of it stated that he was the longest reigning Muslim ruler until the Mongol invasions (the information was sourced). However, Qara xan then suddenly changed the sourced information by writing that Al-Mustansir Billah was the longest reigning ruler. But that is impossible, since according to this source [32], Sanjar ruled from 1097 until 1157/8 (which i added in the article but Qara xan removed it for no reason). Al-Mustansir Billah ruled from 1036 to 1094. Now, let's do some simple math; That means that Sanjar ruled in 60/1 years, while Al-Mustansir Billah ruled only in 58 years.

However, this guy simply won't accept such a simple fact and keeps denying the truth/simple fact and thinks that Britannica is a reliable source. Even if he added a reliable source, it would make no difference since it is clearly clear that Ahmad Sanjar ruled longer if we do some simple math.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Yes, but what can i do when he denies such a simple fact and keeps reverting me?

How do you think we can help?

By telling him that what he is doing is wrong, since he ignores what i say, so i think it would be good if someone else also did that, since it seems that no baths an eye on the edits he have made and the things he have said lately.

Summary of dispute by Qara xan[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Ahmad Sanjar discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Volunteer's Note: Welcome to the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. I'm neither taking this case nor opening it for discussion at this time, but just reminding the filing editor that it is his obligation to notify the other participants of this filing by leaving a note on their user talk pages. The template mentioned at the top of this page can be used for that purpose or a custom-written note. If those notices are not given in the next two or three days — and placing a notice on the article talk page will not suffice — this listing will be closed as abandoned. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 23:13, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Done, thank you for notifying me about that :). --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:35, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Northern Province, Sri Lanka[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Obi2canibe on 20:48, 24 January 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The lead of Northern Province, Sri Lanka stated that it was known as Sri Lanka's Tamil country and provided a RS. This was removed by 4frans4 without explanation. After a couple reverts I re-inserted the content with several additional RS. In the mean time a discussion has been ongoing on my talk page in which I have explained why the content should be kept but 4frans4 refuses to accept that his removal is against Wikipedia policies.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

This has been discussed on my talk page but it is clear we are not going to agree. A third party editor has tried to reword the content to make it acceptable to 4frans4 but he has reverted this as well.

How do you think we can help?

Confirm the content complies with Wikipedia policies and that 4frans4 is not justified in his removal.

Summary of dispute by 4frans4[edit]

He obi2canibe wants to include the phrase that the Northern Province of Sri Lanka is known as the tamil country of Sri Lanka, apparently due to the large number of Tamil demographics presence in the area. Although it may be the case, in an official capacity from the Sri Lankan government or even from a provincial council capacity. The Northern Province isn't named as the Tamil Country. With regards to this Obi2canibe's reason if Northern Province is Tamil Country due to large presence of Tamil People, is Uva Province the country of Sinhalese? Is Eastern Province the country of Muslims. Plus by naming a single province as certain ethnicities' country isn't it the root cause of 3 decade Sri Lankan Civil War? For a tamil separate state? Just because a large number of an ethnicity's presence doesn't justify the cause to name a certain state, region or province as it's country unless it is defined in an official capacity.

 : is Tamil Presence in Tamil Nadu justify to call Tamil Nadu as Tamil country of India? 
 : is Malayalam Presence in Kerala justify to call Kerala as Malayalam country of India? 
 : is Assamese presence in Assam justify to call Assam as Assamese country of India?

I took India as an example due to the close resemblance of this case between India and Sri Lanka. Finally Obi2canibe recognize himself as a Tamil Eelam sympathizer. Tamil Eelam peoples' sole purpose was to create a separate tamil state in Northern Area of Sri Lanka, in which their dream was crushed by the May of 2009. Naming the province as Tamil country also hurt the reconciliation effort being carried out in Sri Lanka. 4keven4 (talk) 01:45, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Northern Province, Sri Lanka discussion[edit]

I'm now looking into this matter. I will report back in half an hour or so, once I'm up to speed. Please keep discussion to a minimum in the meantime. SPACKlick (talk) 18:30, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Ok, so I can see that this has been quite a short back and forth with only little discussion. The dispute seems to involve the claim that there are RS that refer to part of Sri Lanka as "Tamil Country". Whether that place is the same as "Northern Province" and how to feature any of that in the article. I think you could resolve this if we try to keep the animosity to a minimum. To note the discussion of whether a source is official is a sidetrack. Official isn't the standard Reliable is. So if @Obi2canibe: can post some of the sources would you be willing to discuss if they are reliable and if they refer to the Northern Province @4frans4:? SPACKlick (talk) 19:08, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for volunteering to mediate @SPACKlick:. On your first point, yes, the discussion was less than one would normally expect before a DRN is filed but given 4frans4's responses I didn't think we would be able to resolve it between ourselves. Here are some sources you requested:
  1. BBC News - "A trip to Sri Lanka's Tamil country. A sudden phone call gave the BBC's Sri Lanka correspondent Charles Haviland rare access to the the war-battered north of the island."
  2. The Independent - "We arrived at Colombo airport in the sticky still of night, struggling with the driver to tie a surfboard to the roof of his saloon, before setting off for the north: Tamil country."
  3. New York Times - "FOUR years ago this week, the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam announced that their struggle for an independent homeland in northern Sri Lanka had “reached its bitter end...Today, great sections of Tamil country are still a scene of devastation."
  4. Daily Telegraph - "Immigration Minister Scott Morrison arrived in Sri Lanka yesterday and flew to Tamil country on a military helicopter to meet with the Northern Province governor G.A. Chandrasiri to talk about Australian aid programs."
  5. Asia.com: Asia Encounters the Internet (page 184) - "Information out of Jaffna, the heart of Tamil country, and the center of the war zone, and which has no working telephone lines, is passed through word of mouth, ham radio and via the Tamil Tigers' clandestine radio station."
  6. Times of India - "Samanth visits an army-built war museum in the former Tiger zone - the heart of Tamil country -- that has signboards only in English and Sinhalese."
  7. UNHCR/Documentation Réfugiés - "The source also mentions the town of Vavuniya as an LTTE area of influence. Documentation Réfugiés describes it as the beginning of "Tamil country.""--obi2canibetalk contr 19:45, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

As I mentioned, any author, any painter and any mother could call another man donkey. From an insulting manner to giving praise. But regardless, it doesn't mean that an encyclopedia like this should emphasis it in our article. As I said, If naming Northern Province as Tamil Country is justifiable due to the large presence of Tamil Population, then what about the states in India? Isn't it the true essence of Tamil Eelam? Isn't it the root cause of Sri Lankan Civil War we experienced for 30 years because some messed up psychopath wanted to create a separate tamil state? I'm not sure if @SPACKlick: gets the real gist of this discussion. This is not about just a name for the province. This so much more larger than adding the phrase tamil country to the Northern Province of Sri Lanka. Please try to see it @SPACKlick:.

He could add the phrase "Northern Province is known for its large presence of Tamil Population". Thanks I rest my case here. 4keven4 (talk) 22:03, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

@4frans4:, While any man could call another man "Donkey" and that would not go in the article. If reliable sources refer to him regularly as "Donkey" that would need to be noted. Just as it is with England's Black Country, irrespective of the amount of coal mining there, it is commonly referred as such.
Your suggestion that the page could note that the area contains a large Tamil population is a sidetrack because the page already says that and it isn't relevant to whether the area gets referred to as "Tamil Country". . The sole question here is whether "Reliable Sources" refer to "Northern Province" as "Tamil Country". I would like you to come back and discuss what the sources say.
@Obi2canibe:, on the sources specifically I've changed your bullets to numbers for ease of future reference. SPACKlick (talk) 09:21, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Malik-Shah I[edit]

Symbol wait old.png – New discussion.
Filed by HistoryofIran on 21:39, 25 January 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Qara xan keeps removing sourced information! it is really getting annoying now and i am surprised that no one have seen it yet. He keeps removing the Seljuq statesman Nizam al-Mulk out of mention during the campaign of the Seljuq ruler Alp Arslan in Caucasus in 1064, when the source i added clearly says that he took part in the campaign;

Alp Arslān was quick to resume his military activity. In Rabīʿ I, 456/February-March, 1064, he undertook a campaign in the northwest which resulted in significant gains at the expense of Byzantine Armenia; Neẓām-al-molk and the sultan’s son, Malekšāh, operated separately during part of the campaign, each taking a string of fortresses. They rejoined the sultan to take Sepīd Šahr and Ānī.

And when he runs out of words, then he suddenly keeps accusing me of being uncivil. I seriously don't know what to do anymore. I have created over 320 articles and expanded even many more, and tried to expand the Malik-Shah I article too, but sadly he is stopping my progress.

By the way, I have left him a note so he can participate in this.

Sorry if my English sounds kinda bad right now, i am tired and frustrated.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Yes, but i am unable to do anything when he denies what a reliable source says.

How do you think we can help?

By telling him that what he is doing is wrong, since he ignores what i say and randomly accuses me of being uncivil because he has nothing more to say. He have done that several times in several articles now, which is tiring me very much, so therefor i decided to hopefully end this issue by taking it over here.

Summary of dispute by Qara xan[edit]

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Talk:Malik-Shah I discussion[edit]

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