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Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution and get assistance to the right place; request for comment, conduct RFC, mediation or other noticeboard, if involving other issues. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button Button rediriger.png to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember guidelines and policy when discussing issues. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.

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We are always looking for new volunteers and everyone is welcome. Click the volunteer button above to join us, and read over this page to learn how to get started. Being a volunteer on this page is not formal in any respect, and it is not necessary to have any previous dispute resolution experience. However, having a calm and patient demeanor and a good knowledge of Wikipedia policies and guidelines is very important. It's not mandatory to list yourself as a volunteer to help here, anyone is welcome to provide input.

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Case Created Last volunteer edit Last modified
Title Status User Time User Time User Time
Assembly of the Community of Serbian municipali... 4NeedAssist Heracletus (t) 13976112008 days, 17 hours ago MrScorch6200 (t) 13980331203 days, 19 hours ago MrScorch6200 (t) 13980331203 days, 19 hours ago
Aurora, Cayuga County, New York 7Closed Happy Attack Dog mobile (t) 13978622405 days, 19 hours ago Theodore! (t) 13982209801 day, 15 hours ago Theodore! (t) 13982209801 day, 15 hours ago
Davido 2In Progress Versace1608 (t) 13981651202 days, 7 hours ago Kutsuit (t) 13982562001 day, 6 hours ago Kutsuit (t) 13982562001 day, 6 hours ago
David Camm 1New Bali88 (t) 13982031601 day, 20 hours ago None n/a Overagainst (t) 13982479201 day, 8 hours ago
Southern Poverty Law Center 1New Mrdthree (t) 13982471401 day, 8 hours ago None n/a Homunq (t) 13983548402 hours ago
Right Sector 2In Progress Darouet (t) 139828794021 hours ago Theodore! (t) 13983435005 hours ago Darouet (t) 13983505203 hours ago
Voting system 1New Homunq (t) 13983401406 hours ago None n/a Homunq (t) 13983401406 hours ago
Last updated by EarwigBot operator / talk at 18:30, 24 April 2014 (UTC)



Current disputes[edit]

Information pertaining to the "Death" section of recently deceased public figure/professional wrestler, Warrior aka Ultimate Warrior aka James Hellwig[edit]

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on the talk page and we can not come to an agreement or compromise.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview
There is a disagreement between myself and several other Wikipedia users regarding the biography of The Ultimate Warrior.

There is a sentence in his death section that reads, "Warrior was admittedly a heavy user of steroids during his professional wrestling career; since the heart is a muscle, steroids can affect its condition." and lists the following articles as reference....

http://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/WWE_News_3/article_77724.shtml http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/ultimate-warrior-death-wwe-hall-of-famer-died-from-heart-disease-autopsy-concludes-9262036.html

most notably, the following quote from James Caldwell is the main point of reference,

"Warrior was an admittedly heavy steroid user during his pro wrestling career, which affects the condition of a person's heart due to the heart also being a muscle. He had a family history of heart attacks, as his father died at age 57 and one of his grandfathers died at age 52."

Their argument is that they have a source that states "steroids can effect the heart since the heart is a muscle."

My argument is that James Caldwell is a beat writer for professional wrestling. He is not licensed to practice medicine, and as far as I know has no education or expertise in pharmacology, chemistry, physiology, biology or any other practice that would qualify him to give an opinion on steroids and whether or not steroids had any part in Warrior's death.

What we do have is an official autopsy report, and there is no reference to steroids whatsoever. Since the medical professional did not list steroids, I believe no mention of steroids should be listed in Warrior's death section. I have no problem if Warrior's past steroid use is mentioned, but to place it in his death section is misleading and possibly suggests steroids played a part in his death. Since his official report omits any reference to steroids, I believe his official wiki bio should also omit any reference.

Their counter argument to mine is they claim to have covered their bases by saying "we have said that steroids are not a direct cause of death." I further argue that there is NO evidence, either direct or indirect, that steroids had any contribution whatsoever to Warrior's death. So while technically, their statement is correct, it is out of place, irrelevant, and misleading.

If steroids had nothing to do with Warrior's death, why is there a mention of it in his death section at all? I believe if users want to list information about steroids, they need to put that information on an anabolic steroids page. I fail to understand why steroid information and its effects on the human body is discussed the death section of Warrior's biography, and James Caldwell's speculation and/or opinion is not encyclopedic information. User LM2000 disagrees and believes pro-wrestling journalist Caldwell's statement is a reliable source of information regarding steroids and its long term health effects stating, "As a professional wrestling reporter he has seen enough of these guys drop dead suddenly, dying with "enlarged hearts" to know there's a link here. It's no more speculative than saying family history might have been the culprit. I fail to see how "seeing enough of these guys drop dead suddenly" qualifies Caldwell as an expert on the subject. I vehemently disagree with that statement. As I mentioned in the talk section, that qualification would never be sufficient to qualify as an expert witness in court, and Warrior did in fact have a father and grandfather who died of heart disease.

I would welcome any help in resolving this issue.--Jmurdock21 (talk) 01:58, 24 April 2014 (UTC)--

I would like to add the following from Arnold Schwarzenegger's wikipedia page..In 1999, Schwarzenegger sued Dr. Willi Heepe, a German doctor who publicly predicted his early death on the basis of a link between his steroid use and his later heart problems. As the doctor had never examined him personally, Schwarzenegger collected a US$10,000 libel judgment against him in a German court.[33] In 1999, Schwarzenegger also sued and settled with The Globe, a U.S. tabloid which had made similar predictions about the bodybuilder's future health.
I believe this shows a precedent that implicating that past steroid has caused/will cause future health problems is a libelous issue, and while the issue at hand doesn't say that steroids were responsible for Warrior's death, it's inclusion is misleading. As @InedibleHulk: stated, things that did not happen are infinite. In the talk section, I asked "why stop at steroids" because we could just as easily add, "Warrior is an admitted past user of pharmaceutical pain killers. Not using prescription medication as prescribed can lead to respiratory depression and death. However, there is no direct link between Warrior's death and pain killers." That statement is 100% factual and true. However, just as the steroid mention, it is misleading and is speculative.--Jmurdock21 (talk) 15:18, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

How do you think we can help? To settle this situation that neither side believes is incorrect. I feel like I have a very strong case, and I believe Wikipedia has precedent regarding irrelevant information and or opinions and statements from unqualified sources.

Summary of dispute by LM2000[edit]

I'm not sure why I'm the only person listed as being in this dispute as I wasn't the only person who responded to this nor did I originally place this information in the article. @InedibleHulk:, @Starship.paint:, and @STATicVapor: should have a voice in this as well. Jmurdoch insisted on a source directly from a medical professional. Caldwell wasn't the only source in the first place; Caldwell (as well as The Independent) weren't pulling their reports out of their rear, they based them on reports from medical professionals, many of which came from wrestlers who have died under similar circumstances. We actually seemed to be making progress in the last couple of responses, with each of us offering amended versions of the current sentence. Jmurdock's proposed version would read: "Warrior was an admitted user of anabolic steroids during his bodybuilding and wrestling career. However, Warrior's death was ruled a natural death and no link was discovered between Warrior's death and anabolic steroids."[1] Although explaining steroids connection to cardiovascular disease does make sense, I don't take much of an issue with this proposed version (It was someone else that replied to you). I would change "no link" to "no direct link" as International Business Times reports officials as saying they "did not play a direct role".[2] Much of your version seems similar enough to the original version which you took issue with, which stated that there were no mention of steroids in his autopsy, that we're a few steps away from arguing semantics here. The steroids issue has clearly been covered by numerous sources, and a certain HLN show caused quite a stir by their misleading coverage. As Hulk pointed out the article read ... steroids can affect its condition; however, Warrior's autopsy did not directly list steroids as a cause of death. There is nothing erroneous or misleading in this statement.LM2000 (talk) 04:18, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I pointed out that the article said it, but not that I liked it (which is why I removed it). It's not erroneous, but a bit misleading to have any original research "however" tacked on. In Tony Halme, we mention his alcoholism in the death section. In Richard Burton, we mention neck pain and cirrhosis. We don't point out that these things didn't cause the deaths, because if they had, we'd say so. They're just there for context, like a history of steroids and family heart attacks.
Things which do not happen/exist are infinite, and adding them to any article just begs questions. There is no evidence Stephen Harper is a heroin addict, nothing indicating fire cures cancer and no confirmation that the dog from Frasier lives on a big farm. Same deal here. If there's nothing, add nothing. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:51, April 24, 2014 (UTC)
I originally listed Inedible Hulk in this dispute. I did not list StaticVapor or Starship.paint. I must have erased Inedible Hulk as a participant during an edit.--Jmurdock21 (talk) 15:11, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Doesn't seem that way. No worries, though. Didn't hurt my feelings. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:24, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

Jmurdoch has said two things that concern me. One was that he would continue to edit war"I am removing any mention of steroids from his death section and will continue to do so until..."[3] In a recent post he threatened to notify this subject's relatives as well as their legal team over this issue.[4] I have only edited the part of the article relating to this issue once, to undo Jmurdoch's revert after he threatened to edit war. His edits had been undone once before, then he reverted me, only to be reverted by someone else. Static and I advised him to discuss. I too hope that this resolves the issue.LM2000 (talk) 06:18, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I did say I would revert changes unless we had (in my opinion) a qualified source that mentioned Warrior's death along with steroids. The Nancy Grace show you alluded to is a perfect example why first hand opinions/statements from journalists are not credible sources for topics other than journalism.
When the dispute became a bigger issue and other people joined in, I backed off and discontinued any further revisions to avoid an edit war. I did indicate that I would contact Dana Warrior and Warrior's legal team if all else fails. As you may or may not know, Warrior was very protective of his reputation and of his Ultimate Warrior character as well. There's a video on youtube called "Ultimate Warrior Confession" which is a parody video in which Warrior's words are spliced out of context to make Warrior tell of a fictional past homosexual experience. Warrior had his legal team make the original creator take that particular video down (However it still exists since other users simply posted it again.) I personally think that was overkill, and I don't see anything wrong with a parody, but it does show how serious Warrior takes matters such as these. I don't believe his family would want to look at a biography of their father/husband on the internet and see a discussion of steroids in his death section, if they want to find out information about steroids, I believe they would prefer to go to the wiki page about steroids.--Jmurdock21 (talk) 15:11, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
There are many articles on Wikipedia containing unflattering factual material. Once we start considering people's feelings (whether to attack or defend), we're skating out of the neutral zone. That aside, don't you think the family already knows enough about him (including far more "dirt") to skip his Wiki bio? InedibleHulk (talk) 17:21, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

Assembly of the Community of Serbian municipalities[edit]

Pictogram voting wait red.png – Needs attention.
Filed by Heracletus on 01:20, 16 April 2014 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

We disagree with User:Qwerty786 over the article of this Assembly and the article of Association of Serbian municipalities, Kosovo. The Assembly mentioned is the assembly of the association mentioned. Initially, this association was backed by Serbian and not recognised by Kosovo Albanian authorities. Then, the two governments agreed on such an association in the Brussels Agreement (2013) which would have the exact structure as the previous one. For me this means that the new envisaged association and assembly are clear continuations of the old ones. Furthermore, the Agreement mentions that Serbian-backed courts and police in North Kosovo will be integrated in the Pristina organised judicial and police structures. The exact details of implementation are still under negotiation. Although the Agreement is intended as a compromise and tries to be as neutral as possible mentioning integrations and mergings, User:Qwerty786 keeps repeating that "Serbian structures are abolished" and thus proceeded to remove referenced material from these pages about the previous institutions, association/community and assembly. Even if one agrees that the previous institutions were abolished and not integrated or merged, even though this is contrary to the language of the Agreement, this does not mean that we should vanish all information about the past institutions from wikipedia. Even though, I kept saying this and making the articles representing the new institutions while also mentioning the past ones, and even though the article is under the ArbCom's Balkans decision, the user reverted thrice the page of the Assembly, in order to make the according to him "abolished" past institutions vanish, clearly pushing a POV. It was clearly mentioned that these past institutions were supported by Serbia and not by Kosovo Albanians or UNMIK and that when negotiations are over the new ones will take over. We kept talking about this in our talk pages, but to no avail.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I tried talking to the user on his talk page, explaining what content I wanted to change and why. I did some changes that I think were clearly NPOV, supporting neither side. I tried explaining why his changes were POV. I made a section on the articles' talk pages. I tried asking another user who reverted to provide an opinion on ways to resolve, but he just refused. And, I also tried to get more opinions by posting on wikiprojects Serbia and Kosovo.

How do you think we can help?

Obviously, an Agreement that would dissolve something and set something almost exactly similar, would mean that one is the continuation of the other, for example the EU and the European Communities. However, this Agreement does not explicitly dissolve anything, it is formulated to integrate, merge & conciliate, being a compromise. Even if it did dissolve, this is no reason to remove again and again referenced material just because something may no longer exist. I want to reach a NPOV consensus.



Summary of dispute by Qwerty786[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I am posting the facts of this entire situation. The Brussels deal is about abolishing all Government of Serbia institutions in Kosovo. This of course includes the Assembly of Municipalities that was formed on the basis of Serbia organized elections in 2008. Just like the police and court systems have been or in the process of being abolished so will all the structures formed from the illegal parallel elections of 2008. The new Assembly of Serbian municipalities can't have the same structure was the assembly formed in 2008 as the result of those elections. The 2013 elections will result in a new assembly that really has nothing to do with the assembly formed as a result of the elections of 2008. Just because two institutions have the word assembly attached doesn't mean they are related in any way. The assembly that will be created soon as a result of Serbs voting in Kosovo run elections doesn't cover the same territory have the same voting methods and more. They are of no relation. Heracletus is trying to push a POV that is not grounded in the reality of what is going on and seems intent on saying even what Belgrade and Serbia isn't saying! Serbia agreed to the Bruseels deal which abolished all Serbian government institutions in Kosovo which includes the now inactive assembly that will very shortly be formally abolished.

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics.php?yyyy=2008&mm=06&dd=28&nav_id=51459

This article is very important because it talks about 26 municipalities. How can the structure be the same if it is going from 26 to 5 or 6? The structure used is radically different. The municipalities used in the Serbia organized elections don't even exist now in Kosovo law.

The issues of the use of the term Metohija was abolished in Brussels! All you have to do is read the Brussels agreement. Qwerty786 (talk) 20:01, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Assembly of the Community of Serbian municipalities discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

24-hour closing notice[edit]

Aurora, Cayuga County, New York[edit]

Davido[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Versace1608 on 11:12, 22 April 2014 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on the talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Greetings Administrators, I am not satisfied with the response Diannaa has given me regarding the removal of the "controversial incidents" section that I added to the Davido article. I understand that she has been cleaning up several articles created by another user, and has gotten rid of the several content that are in direct violation of Wikipedia's copyright policy. I appreciate her for doing that. What I don't appreciate is the response that I have been giving. In this edit, she removed what she felt was a copyright violation, and left an edit summary, stating: "remove "Controversial incidents" per WP:BLP: poorly sourced negative content about a living person". When I saw this, I went to her talk page and left her this note. I didn't agree with her "poorly source" comment, and told her that I cited two Punch references and a Premium Times reference. (Punch and Premium Times are two notable newspapers in Nigeria for those who don't know). How can she said that the content is "poorly source" when these are notable newspaper references? She also said that the contents of the section are negative. This sounds like a fan of Davido reading his article and removing things that they do not want others to read. A core fan of Michael Jackson cannot come to Wikipedia and read his child rape allegation and remove it simply because he/she thinks that the contents are "negative". Back to Davido. The incidents that happened in Nigeria are factual incidents. I would have understand if she had said that the first incident (him being at the scene of a bar fight) was a bit trivial since he didn't sustain any injuries. I personally don't know how a incident, which is backed by reliable sources, can be considerws neg.....

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have talked extensively on the article's talk page. I took the dispute to ANI, but was told to report it here.

How do you think we can help?

I think that if you guys read my point of view, you will understand the importance of what I am saying. I am simply saying that the controversial incidents of the article, which were removed from the article and are backed by reliable sources, be added back to the article.

Summary of dispute by Diannaa[edit]

I don't think that these two incidents belong in the article at all. In the first incident, in November 2013, members of Davido's entourage were involved in a bar fight. Davido was not involved in the fight, though he was present in the bar that night. This incident, which is not even about Davido but about members of his entourage, is not significant enough in my opinion to include in his biography. The activities of his entourage do not belong in his WP:BLP. It's negative information about someone else that could give a negative impression of the subject of this article. That's not allowed per our BLP rules. Please see the essay WP:Coatrack for more information on this topic.

In the second incident, we have newspapers reporting that someone made assault accusations toward Davido in 2012, accusations which he later denied. I can't find a source that says he was ever charged, much less convicted. Per WP:BLPCRIME, which states that we should not include material about possible criminal activity until and unless a conviction is secured, the material has to stay out of the article. -- Diannaa (talk) 19:10, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Davido discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Hello there, Versace1608. First of all, I must inform you that I'm a new volunteer and this is the first time I participate in a dispute resolution, so please bear with me if I make a mistake with regard to the Wikipedia protocols. Having read your opening statement, I assume that you want to bring this dispute to the attention of the Wikipedia administrators? If my assumption is correct, then you should probably notify the admins about this dispute by clicking on this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard. That's only if you wish to bring this to the attention of the administrators, otherwise I believe you're in the right place for resolving this dispute, but you should know that the volunteers do not have to be admins.

I've examined the whole dispute to the best of my ability and my understanding is that you are allowed to include controversies in a biographical article, provided they are backed by reliable sources. That's generally where the dispute lies, as it is often hard to decide what source can be deemed reliable, especially if it's journalistic in nature and when it doesn't belong to the mainstream international news agencies. In such cases, I think it would be appropriate to find as many news sources that can strengthen the validity of the controversial incident in question. I'm not aware of how reliable Nigerian news agencies are but, given the fact that the musician involved in this dispute is an American national, are there any mainstream American news sources that can at least verify this story?

Based on my experience in Wikipedia, it is my understanding that, generally speaking, any source is better than no source, even if it's in another language. But given the controversial nature of what you would like to add to the article and given that controversial statements in biographical articles are taken very seriously, it is vitally important that you can find reliable journalistic sources in order to avoid breaking Wikipedia policies. With that said, if the information that you'd like to add is verifiable by multiple sources and provided that the sources are trustworthy/well-known, then I see no reason why the information cannot be included in the article, so long as it doesn't become the central/focal point of the actual article. Sorry for the long response. --Kutsuit 13:13, 22 April 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kutsuit (talkcontribs)

Oh, I forgot to add something... I've been following up with the recent developments in the article's talk page and, in light of these circumstances, I think a consensus could be reached, regarding the inclusion of the information. Once again, however, I would stress the importance of not making the controversial incidents the central/focal point of the article, therefore it's best to keep the information short and simple. Also bear in mind that the reliability of these news sources can be called into question, therefore it would be best if you could find a more mainstream news source (if possible), although that does not necessarily mean that we should discredit the reliability of the Nigerian sources if a consensus can be reached. --Kutsuit (talk) 13:47, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
The section that was removed from the article had two separate incidents. The first one is a bit trivial. If it doesn't get added back to the article, I won't have a fit about it. I have a problem with the removal of the second incident on the basis of "BLP Crime" and "non conviction". I just left a response on the talk page of the article, and I don't think that I should repeat the same thing here. Not every incident one is involve in leads to a conviction. There have been numerous instances where people have gotten acquitted from an incident. There have also been instances where incidents have been resolved outside of court. The second incident is worthy to be included in the article because it received significant coverage in reliable sources. In addition to that, the information is factual. I am in no way trying to diminish the artist or portray him in a negative light. If you read the second incident, you'll see that it is neutral. It can definitely be written and shorten, no doubt. However, I do not agree that it should be thrown out the gate just because Davido didn't get convicted for it. Versace1608 (Talk) 19:51, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Did Versace even note that they had been given extensive advice here? They never confirmed the ending of that thread, especially the parts about wp:UNDUE at the end. As far as ANI was concerned, the matter was closed - odd to see it here the panda ₯’ 09:01, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Having read Diannaa's replies, I believe she has a point in that the information, which was intended to be added to the article, is not appropriate for the actual article, as Davido wasn't personally involved in the brawl. This is a very vital piece of information as it means that the dispute is no longer about the reliability of the Nigerian news sources. Instead, the dispute is now over the inclusion of information that might not seem appropriate in that article. (After all, having looked at the links, Davido wasn't part of the brawl.) In any case, it seems that the discussion has ended in the talk page of that article, therefore I think it's time that we close this case. --Kutsuit (talk) 12:30, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
I am not done with this. Give me time, I will write a response. I am gathering all of the sources and will respond to the second incident. Forget the first incident. I am concern about the second. Versace1608 (Talk) 18:03, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Okay I am ready for my post. First and foremonst, not all incident leads to a conviction. This incident was settled between the two parties. (Here are the reliable sources on thid incident: [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12]) Here's a nutshell of the full story.

News outlets started reporting that a taxi driver accused Davido of hitting him and seizing his car. The driver said that Davido (and his entourage) slapped him and seized his car after he dropped a girl he believed to be "Davido's girlfriend". He also said that he had N100,000 in taxi cab, and didn't see it upon returning to the car. Up until the taxi cab owner got a lawyer involved, none of the Driver's claims could be corroborated because everyone who witnessed the alleged incident couldn't speak in favor of the driver. The girl who was screaming for help told the police that she's not aware of the incident. She allegedly told the driver that she left a phone worth N175,000, and that if the driver is claiming that he lost money, he must refund her for her phone. The driver's story started to gain substance when the police learned that he actually owed the owner of the owner of the taxi the money which he claimed he lost. The owner of the taxi cab and the driver got a lawyer involved. The lawyer insisted to speak to Davido, but the Adeleke family (Davido's family) denied Davido's involvement in the incident, and offered to compensate the driver for two weeks worth off wages. Davido broke his silence on the case and said that all of the allegations are untrue. Davido released a statement to protect his brand and image. How else could you explain what he said? Davido and his family were able to settle the incident with the taxi driver and the taxi owner; Davido was able to walk free because the incident was resolved. The fact that the incident was settled proves that an incident actually occurred. Are things being blown out of proportion? Certainly. Again, I don't see how all of this can't be added to the biographical article. The information is factual and is backed by reliable sources. It doesn't harm the subject of the article in any way. It doesn't gave the article "undue weight" because Davido is hardly known for this incident. He is known worldwide for his music. Diannaa said that the incident was poorly source. The sources that I have provided proves that the incident is not "poorly source". Also, the incident was resolved; it didn't lead to a conviction because both parties were satisfied with what they agreed on. Diannaa claims that the incident gives Davido a reputation of violence. This is totally not true. Like I said earlier, Davido is known for his music. No one is perfect; people make mistakes all the time. No one should try to paint Davido as an innocent musician who has never been involved in a controversy. Versace1608 (Talk) 21:17, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

David Camm[edit]

Symbol wait old.png – New discussion.
Filed by Bali88 on 21:46, 22 April 2014 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Another editor is telling me that a BLP violation exists, but will not describe the way in which it violates BLP. I don't see anything wrong with the section involved and cannot fix it or avoid the same problem in the future without knowing what I'm doing wrong.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

discussion on talk page

How do you think we can help?

I would like someone to weigh in on whether the section violates BLP and if it does, explain what the problem is and how I can fix it.

Summary of dispute by Overagainst[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I rewrote the lede. What I took out was a section that read like a personal reflection about prosecution allegations about a living person. This section (which he has given below) is not encyclopedic in tone or content about the molestation allegations. For instance, the Molestation section concluded " the cause of Jill's injuries remain a mystery,". Bbb23 had pointed out to Bali88 many problems with the general tone in Jan 2014, here. The allegation molestation is mentioned in three places in the article currently, my edit, so I'm not objecting to reasonable proportionate mentioning. I just don't think it's right to have a long section, especially with that tone. I have cited WP:ALIVE, and objected to the tone, weight and excessive detail, and I provided quotes as examples. Bali88says that he wants to compromise, but that I am not explaining what is wrong with the article. I think I have done that repeatedly and Bali88's edits are are indeed as as Bbb23 said overly detailed analysis and WP:UNDUE. Overagainst (talk) 10:12, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Oops, was this supposed to be where he writes stuff? Bali88 (talk) 00:30, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

The following section allegedly contains a BLP violation . It is well sourced, necessary to understand the case, and neutral. I do not see any issue. Can someone give feedback:

The molestation allegations remain controversial and there is little consensus as to the cause of Jill's injuries. In the first two trials, the prosecution accused Camm of causing the injuries. Boney's DNA was subsequently found on the clothing of both Kim and Jill, including an area on the stomach of Jill Camm's shirt. This finding contradicts his assertion that he never touched the victims. It was argued at the third trial that Boney was solely responsible for the substantial amount of injuries they sustained in the deadly attack.[38][63]

Confusion over the nature of the injuries began early in the investigation. The probable cause affidavit listed the injury as a "tear" even though the nature of the injury was listed as non-specific blunt force trauma on the autopsy report and her hymen was intact.[11] Dr. Tracey Corey, the medical examiner who performed the initial autopsy, stated that the injuries could have resulted from a number of causes including a straddle fall, but she believed the injuries were likely the result of a sexual assault. She believed that the injuries occurred within the last few hours of Jill's life, including the time of the fatal attack.[64][65]

Determining the timing of the injuries was crucial to the case and became a major factor in Camm's second conviction. Investigators confirmed that Camm had not seen Jill all day. She had been at school and sports practices and Camm had been at work. During the second trial, the prosecution used the molestation allegations to implicate Camm. An injury sustained at the time of attack could have just as easily been caused by Boney, who admits being at the crime scene, but the prosecution believed that an attack sustained earlier puts greater suspicion on Camm. With Camm's alibi, the varying opinions on blood spatter, and no additional proof that Camm and Boney ever met, convincing the jury that Camm was molesting Jill became the crucial to the state's case to demonstrate motive.[65][66] To attempt to link the injuries to Camm during the second trial, Dr. Betty Spivack, a medical examiner hired by the prosecution, testified that Jill could have sustained the injury up to two days prior to her death. A number of medical examiners testified, but she was the sole medical examiner to testify to the extended timeline and that the injuries happened prior to the fatal attack.[65]

The defense accused Spivack of altering her testimony to appease the prosecution rather than testifying to her own expert opinion. "Dr. Spivack, before in her deposition, told us that the injuries occurred near the time of death due to the painful nature of them. Today, on the stand, she backtracked to fit the state's theory." said Defense attorney Stacy Uliana.[66] Following the verdict, the jurors explained that they made their decision largely on the molestation allegations, specifically, the testimony of Spivack.[67]

Medical examiner Dr. George Nichols, who testified for the defense, disagreed with the state's theory. He said that the lack of white blood cells indicated that the injury was very recent and the trauma was much more likely to have been caused by being hit or kicked. A late addition to the witness list, he testified that he felt compelled to testify after Spivack's timeline for the attack inexplicably changed and she became increasingly certain it was a sexual assault despite Jill's intact hymen.[38][65] The lack of evidence linking Camm to the molestation led directly to the reversal of the guilty verdict. The supreme court stated: "Missing from this record is any competent evidence of the premise that the defendant molested the child."[40]

Complicating matters is an allegation by DNA analyst Lynn Scamahorn claiming the prosecutor attempted to get her to commit perjury by testifying that a specific stain on a comforter from the master bedroom in the Camm household contained vaginal secretions or saliva from Jill to help bolster their claims that Jill had been molested. No such test exists.[68]

The nature and the cause of Jill's injuries remain a mystery, as well does the time frame in which they happened. Camm denies ever abusing his daughter and has never been charged with any molestation-related offense.[69]

David Camm discussion[edit]

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Southern Poverty Law Center[edit]

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Filed by Mrdthree on 09:59, 23 April 2014 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The SPLC monitors antigovernment patriot groups. I wanted to add a hyperlink to antigovernment because I found the term confusing. However initially antigovernment was just a redirect to anti-statism. We mostly agreed that was not the meaning SPLC had in mind. So I researched it and made antigovernment a disambiguation page. Two issues came out of this: (1) Is antigovernment a proper disambiguation page or is it a short article (does it have the right style for a disambiguation page?). (2) If it is a disambiguation page does the edit fail because WP:D (linking to a disambiguation page is bad style?). Mrdthree (talk) 13:36, 21 April 2014 (UTC)


Have you tried to resolve this previously?

argued. Read rules. INitially it was called an overlink but I think that might be resolved. Currently linking to antigovernment is being called WP:D.

How do you think we can help?

Is the antigovernment page a disambiguation page or a stub? Can I make the antigovernment page a disambiguation page? If antigovernment is a disambiguation page can I link to it from the Southern Poverty Law Center article? (does it violate WP:D)

Summary of dispute by Mrdthree[edit]

The SPLC monitors antigovernment patriot groups. I wanted to add a hyperlink to antigovernment because I found the term confusing. However initially antigovernment was just a redirect to anti-statism. We mostly agreed that was not the meaning SPLC had in mind. So I researched it and made antigovernment a disambiguation page. Two issues came out of this: (1) Is antigovernment a proper disambiguation page or is it a short article (does it have the right style for a disambiguation page?). (2) If it is a disambiguation page does the edit fail because WP:D (linking to a disambiguation page is bad style?). Mrdthree (talk) 13:36, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Well, a disambiguation page "lists articles associated with the same title". I'd say that it could be edited into a short article, and you should try it or at least let WP:Wikiproject Politics know about it. Origamite\(·_·\)(/·_·)/ 16:37, 23 April 2014 (UTC)


This is a poor choice for disambiguation ... I suggest a link to Wiktionary where the term is defined. Collect (talk) 18:12, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

If we were to link it would be to "antigovernment patriot group", because that is the term they use. Similarly, we would not link "United States of America" to "United", "States" and "America." The linked article would then begin, "'Antigovernment patriot group"' is a term used by the SPLC to describe groups that...such as...." But that is unnecessary. Most readers understand what "anti" means, and that in this context the government they are anti is the U.S. government which they believe is run by traitors or even enemy foreigners and does not have legitimacy under the U.S. constitution, the supreme law of the United States. TFD (talk) 01:31, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
If this meaning of the term is principally used in this article, why link at all? Why not just define the term later in the same article? Homunq () 15:41, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by The_Four_Deuces[edit]

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Summary of dispute by Malik_Shabazz[edit]

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Southern Poverty Law Center discussion[edit]

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(Note: I've consolidated two separate sections on this down to 1. Homunq () 15:54, 24 April 2014 (UTC))

Are you still interested in pursuing this, given that the term is not currently used in the article? Homunq () 18:46, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Right Sector[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Darouet on 21:19, 23 April 2014 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Right Sector is an ultranationalist and paramilitary political group that formed as a union of smaller far-right groups in Ukraine at the end of 2013. Its ideology, members or constituent groups have been described by some media and scholars as neo-fascist, an appellation not used by others, and contested by a few. The group traces its origins to the far-right Ukrainian nationalists who view themselves as inheritors of the controversial figure Stepan Bandera and the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, as opposed to other, more moderate Ukrainian nationalist parties.

I've presented newspaper articles (from Die Welt, The New York Times, The Nation, Le Monde Diplomatique, Haaretz, Time (magazine)) and scholarly opinions explaining their far-right politics, but Dervorguilla maintains that the sources I present are either mischaracterized, not reliable, not notable, or otherwise a violation of WP:DUE. I contest his characterization of each source and believe that the article is beginning to look like a self-description by Right Sector.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

We have discussed this extensively on Talk:Right Sector, on our own talk pages, and have tried an RfC, which gave mixed results but towards the end favored exclusion of the material. We've also talked about a dispute resolution.

How do you think we can help?

I think having a neutral, experienced editor to work with us to establish: 1) what the sources actually say, 2) how notable or reliable they are, and lastly 3) what their weight should be would be greatly appreciated. I think this is possible because we've both been cordial.

Summary of dispute by Dervorguilla[edit]

1. Let’s begin with the topmost material added by Darouet: “Die Welt reports that Right Sector formed from an association of right-wing and neo-fascist Ukrainian political factions.”

The cited unsigned background analysis has been removed by the publisher from its searchable database. The newspaper does however quote a “well-known Ukrainian researcher” as calling the subject an organization of little “right-wing” groups and gangs. It calls the subject itself a “right-wing” group, a “nationalist” group, and an “ultranationalist” group. See Talk:Right Sector for a lengthier discussion.

2. Darouet started an RfC asking “Do major papers describe Right Sector as neo-Fascist?”. Collect responded “Some do and others don't. So what the Wikipedia best practice is - is to use that term or terms which cover the broad consensus of sources which would appear to be "Right Wing Nationalist".” A few days later Darouet added, in about 3½ hours, all this material:

Die Welt reports that Right Sector formed from an association of right-wing and neo-fascist Ukrainian political factions.… Journalist Alec Luhn for The Nation wrote that "ultranationalists and neo-Nazis" from Right Sector and other groups took control…. Ishchenko wrote that "previously marginal neofascists from the militant Pravy Sektor" entered into negotiations…. Le Monde Diplomatique's Emmanuel Dreyfus writes that the presence of "neo-fascist groups such as Pravy Sector" in Maidan point to a crisis…. Haaretz has written that members of Right Sector used neo-Nazi symbols…. According to TIME magazine, Right Sector's ideology borders on fascism…. Columnist Conn Hallinan has written that the United States press has "downplayed the role" of Right Sector and other far-right groups, which some media and scholars label as "fascist."… Political Scientist Cas Mudde writes that Right Sector's constituent groups include "various neo-fascists and neo-Nazis" who formed alliances…. Political science professor Alexander Motyl by contrast writes that Right Sector is … not fascist.… Political Scientist Anton Shekhovstov writes that while "Right Sector has indeed a neo-Nazi fringe … the main group behind the Right Sector … is far from neo-Nazism…."

Lvivske or I had already presented our concerns about these items at Talk.

3. I believe Lvivske (talk) should be included in this discussion. Meanwhile some of the material added by Darouet can be removed without harm to the article.

Right Sector discussion[edit]

  • I'm Theodore, a volunteer at DRN. I'd be happy to assist in discussing this issue, but will wait until Dervorguilla responds before adding further comments. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 22:08, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
    • I've contacted User:Lvivske regarding this discussion. To start out with, I have one quick question for both editors: Under what circumstances would you be comfortable with references to fascism existing in this article? Any answer is fine; I just want to clarify what you're each looking to see in the article. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 12:45, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Thanks Theodore!; I don't see any problem with User:Lvivske participating. I think that we should include references to fascism as direct quotes or as paraphrasing from sources in the "history" section, where Right Sector's constituent groups are discussed, and in "ideology". I think that Right Sector's description as a neo-fascist organization (or the description of its ideology) should also be noted in the lead, with a qualification that some researchers, e.g. Shekhovstov, think that while some contributing groups as neo-fascist, the group as a whole is not. -Darouet (talk) 14:42, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Voting system[edit]

Symbol wait old.png – New discussion.
Filed by Homunq on 11:49, 24 April 2014 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved Main participants:

Also appearing:

Dispute overview

The article Favorite betrayal criterion has been through 12 deletion/undeletion processes, most of them spearheaded by two users: myself (homunq) and MarkusSchulze. Now the same dispute on whether this should be covered in wikipedia has moved to an ongoing RfC on Talk:Voting system. I am concerned that, with a long-term content dispute like this one, the outcome of the RfC might not be enough to resolve it. At the very beginning of the RfC, I promised to respect any outcome, but despite being invited to do so, MarkusSchulze has made no such commitment.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

In the article at favorite betrayal criterion, aside from the formal deletion/undeletion processes (7 AfD, 3 or 4 DRV, and 1 or 2 undelete), I posted a prominent note on the talk page suggesting that deletion processes not be started without notifying interested parties or wikiprojects; and I even discussed making such notification a mandatory policy for repeated AfD's at Wikipedia_talk:Deletion_policy. These suggestions had no visible effect on MarkusSchulze's conduct in the deletion processes.

The RfC at Talk:voting system is my most recent attempt to clarify.

How do you think we can help?

I think it may be necessary to make some kind of binding decision here. Both of the main parties (MarkusSchulze and myself) have been valuable contributors to the Voting system article in general, so I don't want either of us banned from the page; nor do I think it's a good idea for DRN to pick a permanent "right answer" to the dispute itself. But I do think that we may need some bright lines here; something like 3RR that will work in the case of a dispute that can last for years. For instance: since Voting system is a relatively stable article, I think that limiting the three of us to 1 or 2 reverts for every 50 edits by other users might be a viable rule, and I'd trust all editors involved to follow it voluntarily if they agreed to.

Summary of dispute by MarkusSchulze[edit]

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Summary of dispute by Collect[edit]

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Voting system discussion[edit]

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