Wikipedia:Deletion review

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This page deals with the Deletion discussion process. For articles deleted via the "PROposed Deletion" ("PROD") process, or simple image undeletions, please post a request at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion

"WP:DELREV" redirects here. For Revision Delete, see WP:REVDEL.

Deletion discussions
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Wikipedia editors may find articles, images, or other pages that they believe should be deleted, and raise these concerns in various deletion forums. Administrators determine consensus and examine policy to determine if there is sufficient justification for their removal from Wikipedia.

Deletion review (DRV) considers disputed deletions and disputed decisions made in deletion-related discussions and speedy deletions. This includes appeals to restore deleted pages and appeals to delete pages kept after a prior discussion.

If a short stub was deleted for lack of content, and you wish to create a useful article on the same subject, you can be bold and do so. It is not necessary to have the original stub undeleted. If, however, the new stub is also deleted, you may list it here for a discussion. If you are proposing that an existing page be reconsidered for deletion, please place the template {{Delrev}} on that page to inform editors who may wish to join the discussion here (administrators may replace with {{TempUndelete}} where appropriate).

Before posting a deletion review request, please read Wikipedia:Deletion policy and the list of perennial requests.

What is this page for?

Please consider the options below, and then follow instructions to add your request to the main part of the page.

Principal purpose – challenging deletion decisions

Deletion Review is the process to be used to challenge the outcome of a deletion debate or to review a speedy deletion.

1. Deletion Review is to be used where someone is unable to resolve the issue in discussion with the administrator (or other editor) in question. This should be attempted first – courteously invite the admin to take a second look.
2. Deletion Review is to be used if the closer interpreted the debate incorrectly, or if the speedy deletion was done outside of the criteria established for such deletions.
3. Deletion Review may also be used if significant new information has come to light since a deletion and the information in the deleted article would be useful to write a new article.
4. In the most exceptional cases, posting a message to WP:AN/I may be more appropriate instead. Rapid corrective action can then be taken if the ensuing discussion makes clear it should be.

This process should not be used simply because you disagree with a deletion debate's outcome for reasons previously presented but instead if you think the closer interpreted the debate incorrectly or have some significant new information pertaining to the debate that was not available on Wikipedia during the debate. Equally, this process should not be used to point out other pages that have not been deleted where your page has — each page is different and stands or falls on its own merits. This page exists to correct closure errors in the deletion process and speedy deletions, both of which may also involve reviewing content in some cases. Purely procedural errors may be substantive and result in an overturn (such as failing to tag a page for its XfD discussion) or irrelevant (such as closing 1 minute early).

Listings which attack other editors, cast aspersions, or make accusations of bias, or where nominators do any of these things in the debate, may be speedily closed.

The main purpose of the page is to review the outcome of deletion discussions, as described above. There are some ancillary cases where editors wish to have pages restored. These are also handled in the main part of the page—please consider the usual reasons below and state clearly the basis for your request.

Temporary review

Request this if you want to use the content elsewhere (such as in other articles), you suspect the article has been wrongly deleted but are unable to tell without seeing what exactly was deleted, or if the full article history is needed to complete a transwiki properly. Please state whether you would like:

1. The article temporarily restored for all to examine during a review.
2. The article restored to your userspace so you can work on it to attempt to address the problems that led to deletion.
3. The source of the article emailed to you to review 'off-Wiki'.

The latter two may be requested here. Only uncontroversial revisions will be restored. Content that is moved back to the encyclopedia without being improved may be subject to speedy deletion, and content held in userspace without evidence of intent to work on it may also be nominated for deletion.

History-only undeletion

Request this to have the history of a deleted article restored behind a new, improved version of the article. The old, deleted revisions will sit harmlessly in the history of the page. 'History-only' undeletions can be performed without needing extended discussion on this page.

Contesting 'proposed deletions'

For these uncontroversially deleted articles, you can make a quick request at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion.

How do I do all this?

All requests go in the main part of the page below. Please state clearly your reason for requesting undeletion. If you want to review the debate or the cause of deletion, then these ancillary options are not appropriate, and you should request a full review.

Under no circumstances will revisions that are copyright violations, libelous or contain otherwise prohibited content be restored.

Instructions

Before listing a review request:

1. discuss the matter with the closing administrator and try to resolve it with him or her first. If you and the admin cannot work out a satisfactory solution, only then should you bring the matter before Deletion review. See #What is this page for?.
2. please check that it is not on the list of perennial requests. Repeated requests every time some new, tiny snippet appears on the web have a tendency to be counter-productive. It is almost always best to play the waiting game unless you can decisively overcome the issues identified at deletion.

Commenting in a deletion review

In the deletion review discussion, users should opt to:

• Endorse the original closing decision; or
• Relist on the relevant deletion forum (usually Articles for deletion); or
• List, if the page was speedy deleted outside of the established criteria and you believe it needs a full discussion at the appropriate forum to decide if it should be deleted; or
• Overturn the original decision and optionally an (action) per the Guide to deletion. For a keep decision, the default action associated with overturning is delete and vice versa. If an editor desires some action other than the default, they should make this clear.

Remember that Deletion Review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the action specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate.

The presentation of new information about the content should be prefaced by Relist, rather than Overturn and (action). This information can then be more fully evaluated in its proper deletion discussion forum.

Temporary undeletion

Admins participating in deletion reviews are requested to routinely restore deleted pages under review and replace the content with the {{TempUndelete}} template, leaving the history for review by non-admins. However, copyright violations and violations of the policy on biographies of living persons should not be restored.

Closing reviews

A nominated page should remain on deletion review for at least seven days. After seven days, an administrator will determine whether a consensus exists. If that consensus is to undelete, the admin should follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Deletion process#Wikipedia:Deletion review discussions. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at the appropriate forum. If the consensus was that the deletion was endorsed, the discussion should be closed with the consensus documented. If the administrator finds that there is no consensus in the deletion review, then in most cases this has the same effect as endorsing the decision being appealed. However, in some cases, it may be more appropriate to treat a finding of "no consensus" as equivalent to a "relist"; admins may use their discretion to determine which outcome is more appropriate. Deletion review discussions may also be extended by relisting them to the newest DRV log page, if the closing admin thinks that consensus may yet be achieved by more discussion.

Steps to list a new deletion review

1.	Before listing a review request please attempt to discuss the matter with the admin who deleted the page as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the admin the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision. If things don't work out, please note in the DRV listing that you first tried discussing the matter with the admin who deleted the page.
2.	Copy this template skeleton for most pages: {{subst:drv2 |page= |xfd_page= |reason= }} ~~~~ Copy this template skeleton for files: {{subst:drv2 |page= |xfd_page= |article= |reason= }} ~~~~
3.	Follow this link to today's log and paste the template skeleton at the top of the discussions (but not at the top of the page). Then fill in page with the name of the deleted page, xfd_page with the name of the deletion discussion page, and reason with the reason why the page should be undeleted. For media files, article is the name of the article where the file was used. For example: {{subst:drv2 |page=File:Foo.png |xfd_page=Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2009 February 19#Foo.png |article=Foo |reason= }} ~~~~
4.	Inform the administrator who deleted the page by adding the following on their user talk page: {{subst:DRVNote|PAGE_NAME}} ~~~~
5.	Nominations to overturn and delete a page previously kept should also attach a {{Delrev}} tag to the top of the page under review to inform current editors about the discussion.
6.	Leave notice of the deletion review outside of and above the original deletion discussion. Use the following template: <noinclude>{{Delrevafd|date=2012 March 10}}</noinclude>

 

Active discussions

9 March 2012

Template:Expert-subject

Template:Expert-subject (talk|edit|history|logs|links|cache|watch) (XfD|restore)

No strong consensus was formed to delete, but due to the outcome this template is now being removed from articles. Contrary to the arguments put forward this template is in active use by e.g. WikiProject Mathematics (Category:Mathematics articles needing expert attention) and WikiProject Computer science (Category:Computer science articles needing expert attention). —Ruud 16:41, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Restore: This template has two complementary uses: First informing the members of the project that the article needs attention. As there is a large backlog, a section in the project talk is not sufficient for the math project. Secondly, in mathematics, there is a large backlog of articles needing more citations. Most of them are clearly correct (for the experts), but sometimes the correction of the content is dubious. In this case, the template is useful not only to ask the help of a better expert, but also to inform every user that a content is dubious. D.Lazard (talk) 18:45, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. I came here because of a thread at WT:WPM. Could someone give a clear link to the deletion discussion? Also, why wasn't the Wikiproject notified in advance of this discussion? Sławomir Biały (talk) 21:49, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
  • The discussion's linked from the "(XfD)" in the header here. 74.74.150.139 (talk) 21:53, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
• Personally, I'd be happy to see this template and all similar "cleanup" templates deleted, or at least transfered out of main space. But just for completeness ... the discussion at TfD seems to assume that all WikiProjects have a banner where we can put a flag attention=yes. However, some WikiProjects have made a conscious decision not to tag all articles which could be connected to it with a WikiProject banner (maths is one example). This does not seem to have been taken into account by either the comments nor the closing admin. When the closing admin says "delete after replacing with a 'attention=yes' or equivalent parameter in the corresponding WikiProject banner on the talk page", as s/he did in this case, how can this be done in the case where there is no corresponding WikiProject banner? -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 23:31, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
• Comment: One of the people voting to Keep the template expressed that view by writing Fix and then expressing agreement with one of the earlier Keep voters. Hence at least three said the template should be kept, and only three (with the possible exception of the proposer?) said it should be deleted. Michael Hardy (talk) 00:54, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
• Restore, given the importance of the template to some projects, the failure to notify projects of the original TfD, the lack of consensus to delete, and the fact that the recommended replacement ('attention=yes' flag) isn't possible in all cases. -- 202.124.74.200 (talk) 01:42, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
• Restore I will repeat what I have posted elsewhere: I disagree with the conclusion that there was consensus for deletion of the template. I count 3 votes for deletion and 2 for keeping the template. Aside from that, while I'm usually rather critical of article tagging templates I consider this one to be one of the more useful ones. It is claimed in the deletion discussion that we can notify editors in another way than by using this template. But this is not just about notifying editors but also about warning readers about problematic content and inviting potential expert readers to contribute. Nageh (talk) 03:42, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
• Relist The debate really didn't have enough discussion for something with such a large impact, and such a large reorganization required by many wikiprojects. It should be relisted and effort made to inform the wikiprojects on who it will impact.--Salix (talk): 08:28, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
• Relist Far too little debate and far too simplistic a solution. I agree that the template isn't perfect - it's supposed to be accompanied by a reason for tagging and many never did, but that's not relevant here. Although I was in favour of removing templates that had no reasoning behind them, outright deletion isn't the way to go. 1ForTheMoney (talk) 11:45, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
• Relist. Given that this template affects multiple WikiProjects, it does not seem like adequate input was solicited. The mathematics WikiProject, for instance, was not notified, and we do rely on this template to maintain a list of articles requiring attention from the project. (Rather than a banner, as already noted by Jitse.) An opportunity for more careful discussion about what to do with this template is needed in which all parties who are likely to be affected have a chance to provide input. Sławomir Biały (talk) 13:51, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

7 March 2012

Jack Bergstrand

Jack Bergstrand (talk|edit|history|logs|links|cache|watch) (XfD|restore)

Revised version. Bgarofallou (talk) 23:26, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I am requesting that the edited page for Jack Bergstrand be reposted (see User:Bgarofallou/Jack_Bergstrand). I have sought the advice of the administrator who deleted the page, Bushranger, and, at his request, sought the opinion of The_ed17.

There was a concern that Jack was simply a “writer about some current IT trend.” This is not the case; he has developed a IT project management model based on Peter Drucker’s theories and his own 20 years of executive management experience at the C-level (CIO, CTO, CFO) for Coca-Cola. His model is based on Drucker’s work, moving Drucker’s concepts from theory into actionable practices that will work for large-scale companies looking to retool for the 21st Century. To be sure, Drucker’s work has its detractors. But it also has a large following.

Bergstrand’s model and book are the result of years of education and practice. The book has been favorably reviewed by Rick Wartzman, Director of The Drucker Institute, as well as practicing IT managers and academicians in the field of business, other students of Drucker’s work, and the preface to the book is an endorsement written by Rick Wartzman himself. To quote from Wartzman’s preface, “Among other steps, Drucker called for giving knowledge workers sufficient autonomy and treating employees as assets rather than as costs. Jack Bergstrand’s remarkable contribution is to explain how (emphasis in original) business should actually go about doing these things.”

While the original article suffered from improper referencing of authoritative sources and promotional writing, these issues have been addressed.

There are Wikipedia listings for: Peter F. Drucker, The Drucker Institute (see Peter F. Drucker and Masatoshi Ito Graduate School of Management and Claremont Graduate University), W. Edwards Deming (contemporary of Drucker and considered the father of Total Quality Management).

I respectfully ask that you review the revised content and references and consider re-posting this page.

• We (me and Ed) referred this to DRV to get a broader opinion on the matter. I am neutral tending torwards restoring the revised version. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:55, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

• Keep deleted, The book is self-published and, though published in 2009, is held in only 4 libraries . Prefaces to books written by notable people are not to be taken at face value: people are generally overexpansive in such circumstances and they are not a RS for anything--And all the more so when the author is an alumnus of the school of which one is Director. Being a student of a notable person does not make someone notable--that's exactly what is meant by NOT INHERITED. I fail to see the analogy with Deming--saying one's teacher is as notable as Deming, even if true, doesn't make oneself any the more notable. That such an argument is used indicates there is no real claim to notability The refs are mostly either article by him. The one major one that isn't , is again by Wartzman, not an independent source for his student. DGG ( talk ) 17:51, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Shigeru Nakanishi

Shigeru Nakanishi (talk|edit|history|logs|links|cache|watch) (XfD|restore)

Because I am Wikipedia editing beginner and not proficient at writing in English, I did not know Wikipedia:Notability. Therefore the English version of the Shigeru Nakanishi article was deleted. Because I show the site in reliable sources here, please return the article.

• He wins a prize every year in Nitten (Japanese art exhibition) which is a maximum general art exhibition in Japan. There is his name when you search 中西繁 in a site of Japanese edition Nitten.

Nitten is日展(日本美術展覧会) (in Japanese) [1]

• He is a director of the Toko society and brings up people drawing a picture.

Toko society is 東光会(in Japanese)[2]--Hiroko Yamamoto (talk) 15:35, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

• temporarily restored for discussion at Deletion Review DGG ( talk ) 20:14, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

• Relist I see from the AfD there was minimal discussion. Rather than discuss notability here, a new AfD would be better. DGG ( talk ) 20:14, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
• Relist just one commenter on the AFD, and since there's new info another look couldn't hurt. If AFD decides again to delete then that should stand unless things change substantially, however. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 21:44, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
• Relist participation at the AfD was minimal and it seems to have been closed as Delete by default because only one person commented. If someone is objecting and has new information then a new discussion is appropriate. Hut 8.5 09:39, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

6 March 2012

File:Simon Wicks 2012.jpg

File:Simon Wicks 2012.jpg (talk|edit|history|logs|links|cache|watch) (article|XfD|restore)

The closure contradicts two votes in support of this image; the nominator did not know how significant an image of the actor's appearance in 2012 is. His appearance changed, and Simon Wicks did not appear since 1991 or 1990 until 2012 just for a cameo. I'm not sure if the closure properly read the consensus. George Ho (talk) 12:24, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion, image was a clear violation of policy. Kelly ^hi! 14:06, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
• Relist I must say I was never comfortable with the discussion's closure after it went stale; it should have been re-listed. Two people (including me) had opposed deletion, and that the nomination was left open for eight days suggests that there was clear ambiguity as to whether it fails policy or not. My comments at the time still stand, not to mention that discussion at Talk:Simon Wicks was tentatively leaning towards removing the other non-infobox picture instead. Looks like the deleting editor appointed himself judge, jury and executioner on this ocassion, and so I'd say a relisting and full discussion would be entirely appropriate. U-Mos (talk) 17:45, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
• I don't see a consensus to delete there, so I would be grateful if Fastily could please expand on his reasoning.—S Marshall T/C 20:20, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Indeed, Fastily's ongoing lack of communication about non-obvious closes concerns me far more than this particular picture. One would think he's gotten enough feedback by now that communication is more important than speed in closing XfD's that he would have modified his behavior appropriately. Jclemens (talk) 00:53, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
    • While I'm anxious not to divert this DRV into a discussion of Fastily's conduct which would properly belong at a user RFC, I would like to agree with Jclemens here. In the event that no elaboration is forthcoming my !vote should be read as "overturn".—S Marshall T/C 12:31, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse. Neither of the supportive comments significantly addressed the NFCC policy concerns, especially for an article including multiple nonfree images of the same actor playing the same character. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 20:53, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Comment Unless I'm mistaken, the question here is whether it was right to close the discussion and not whether the image should be kept/deleted. At any rate, if I must be direct I would argue that the image in question would be primary visual identification of the section on the character's cameo appearance in 2012, and together with the infobox image (I would support deletion of the third image) illustrates the character's appearance over time. U-Mos (talk) 21:30, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Reply. But "the character's cameo appearance in 2012" isn't independently notable, and the NFCC criteria have never supported the notion that any discussion of a scene in a film or TV series justifies an illustrating nonfree image. And, in this specific context, nothing has been advanced to suggest that NFCC#8 has been satisfied. After 8 days for discussion, without any policy-compliant analysis supporting retention of the image, I don't believe the discussion should have been closed any other way. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 21:54, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

You might not find that reasoning satisfactory, but I do and so might others. This is why a discussion is required. The closing user had no grounds to consider the matter resolved. U-Mos (talk) 22:57, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

All that knew had the chance to comment U-mos - the reason for nomination was solid. The only reasons to keep did not meet the NFCC requirement. It was right to be removed too - there were three non free images inthe article at the time - This one was from a 15 second scene, it does not take anything away from the general reader now it is not there. They don't really need to know that the character aged because that is fairly obvious.Rain the 1 23:52, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

"Obvious"? Obviously, soap opera episodes have become daily, yet newer episodes come and go, while older ones... I know that SOAPnet is going away, and we Americans will never see reruns of soap operas in the future in the US. How do they work in Britain? Saying that there is no need to know that this character aged would be something, as no need to see how aged David Wicks had. Unfortunately, Fastily thinks that using multiple images for age depiction may not meet standards of WP:NFCC and is not fair use; I discussed age difference with Fastily. Still, I thought it was unfair to delete this image, and using two or three images for age difference really helps my thoughts per NFCC#8, as well as general readers. Just one question: when will BBC or another station rebroadcast Simon's 2012 cameo appearance? --George Ho (talk) 00:06, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

• Overturn if this vote counts. To me, this image increased my understandings about Simon and the portrayer himself. --George Ho (talk) 00:06, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Please can you explain how this image increased your understanding of the subject? What aspects of the actor did it help you understand? Remember that this is about a fictional character - we do not use non-free media to illustrate living persons.Rain the 1 00:38, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

...What else can I say? As far I can remember, Simon's hair has gotten white, his skin became a little brittle and dried, and his voice must have changed, although picture is not same as a video. Also, daytime soap operas function differently from a primetime program. As I told you, no one knows when older episodes have chance to be rebroadcast. As far as I know, American soap operas will not be rebroadcast in local channels and networks. Somehow, I will never have British or international soap operas in America; even BBC America and PBS stations, such as KOCE, stopped airing EastEnders. Although image is not allowed in a biography of the living person, it is good for an article about this fictional character. Omitting an image just because text is "sufficient enough"... what about dyslexic people? Can they read that article properly? --George Ho (talk) 00:58, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure that image was of the quality to show that the subjects skin had become "brittle and dried". The picture does not help with his voice either. So I don't think the image will help you identify with those points. As for daytime soaps that air in the US - they have little to do with these soaps that air of a night time in the UK - they are broadcast at a later date in some countries. We cannot predict the future either, so it might get shown for you again. As for those who have trouble reading the article - any number of things can be done by them - and even you can request a audio version of the article. Even after all that, I'm not sure those reasons meet the requirement.Rain the 1 01:51, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

To imply, what's fair to you is not fair to me, correct? Unfortunately, what's happening to EastEnders in UK is different from what already happened and has been happening to EastEnders in the US: no channels are broadcasting EastEnders in my area at this time. Also, I'm not sure if there are any publicity photos of Simon Wicks's appearance in 2012; screenshots are our only chance, and this image was unfairly deleted. I wonder if BBC has released a clip of Simon Wicks's 2012 appearance online; even so, I can't access any video clip of fictional element in BBC.co.uk because I live in the United States. Maybe there might be Americans who have become interested in past characters of EastEnders more than present ones, actually. As for this image, why is a text of cameo sufficient, while the image is excessive? --George Ho (talk) 02:26, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ While wary of drifting towards WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, I'm failing to understand why this new image is the one that must be removed, and not the other extraneous image on the page (which, as I pointed out, there was some support for on the talk page). I'm also failing to see the difference in this image depicting a change of appearance over time, and those that have not been removed at (off the top of my head) Alan Jackson (EastEnders), Abi Branning, Pat Butcher and I'm sure many many more. Secondly, on the question of the closure surely the appropriate course of action where a discussion has gone stale would be to raise it on the project talk page, and article talk page, and perhaps place a note by the picture in the article itself before waiting to see if there would be any further response? Not to mention that the closing editor could have used the discussion point to explain why he felt the image should be deleted himself, which may have encouraged further comments. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe any of these steps were taken here, and I don't believe deleting non-speedy candidates by the back door like this is correct. U-Mos (talk) 14:03, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

5 March 2012

Gabriel Cousens

Gabriel Cousens (talk|edit|history|logs|links|cache|watch) (XfD|restore)

I have written a completely new draft here: User:Ocaasi/Gabriel Cousens. The article was previously deleted due to lack of notability and one event issues. There were also some BLP concerns about controversial information relating to the Charles Levy Controversy. This draft draws on a variety of mainstream, regional and national news, as well as natural health and skeptical news sources. I think the subject's notability is pretty solid. One-event issues were cleared up by focusing broadly on all sourced aspects of Cousens' life, work, retreat center, film productions, and publications. The controversy is but one section among 4 or 5 substantial ones. In the previous AfD, Cousens' mentioned that he didn't believe the Phoenix New Times[3], which is used in the Controversy section, was reliable. I was careful to very neutrally phrase the information from that article, as well as adding sources from Arizona Central[4] and Quackwatch[5]. I think the treatment is in line with NPOV and V and only leaves a remote possibility that Cousens would pursue legal action through the Foundation. I don't believe it's our job to preemptively censor articles, so I believe the article as written should be created and legal issues left for the Foundation to handle. If there is consensus among other editors that the controversy section was mishandled, they can be resolved by either searching for other sources, removing information, or rephrasing the text. In any event, the majority of the article as written should be uncontroversial and is well sourced, so in a worst case scenario the controversy section could just be removed (though I think that would be a mistake and not required by policy). I have spoken with the admin who closed the AfD and he encouraged me to pursue this Deletion Review. Ocaasi ^{t | c} 19:49, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

• Gabriel Cousens personally requested that his article be deleted in this diff. I think the substantive question at this DRV is whether Dr Cousens is notable enough to warrant overruling his wishes. On the one hand, we do have a basic duty to tell our readers the truth, and it's verifiable that a medical examiner pinned the death of Charles Levy directly on Dr Cousens (source in the draft article but for convenience the link is here); besides, Dr Cousens' dietary recommendations strike me as most peculiar and highly unlikely to enhance his patients' health. We might save people some money, or even some medical issues, by having an appropriately NPOV article in this space.

  But on the other hand, we aren't Snopes. We aren't trying to expose people of whose practices we disapprove, but to write a comprehensive, objective and neutral encyclopaedia. I don't see that Dr Cousens is so notable that we need an article on him—which means it isn't necessary to expose the Wikimedia Foundation to legal risk or Wikipedia's reputation to another controversy concerning a living person. It seems unwise to court trouble when we don't need to.

  I can see a lot of effort's gone into that draft, and I've no wish to be unpleasant but on balance I'm more persuaded by the case for not publishing it to the mainspace.

  If you're the kind of person who likes words in bold then you should read this whole comment as weak keep deleted: I don't feel strongly about this, I think it's a judgment call and if editors do wish to keep it then I would be persuadable.—S Marshall T/C 20:41, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

  • I'm not sure if responding to comments is typical at Deletion Review (this is my first), but I have a few thoughts about this. I wasn't aware that notability required a need, as opposed to merely significant coverage in reliable sources. Does the draft have that? That's the first question. The later notion, that we have to balance the subject's wishes or legal risk to the foundation over the motive to expose odd or potentially dangerous practices all strike me as concepts that are unfamiliar or absent from my understanding of policy. Could you point me to where it suggests we're supposed to use discretion for that type of balancing of interests, or even consider those issues at all? Is there any stipulation or precedent for editors (as opposed to the foundation) avoiding controversial articles for preemptive legal concerns? (Although many of us fashion otherwise, our role is neither to be muckrackers or lawyers). You said, "It seems unwise to court trouble when we don't need to"; that kind of sentiment seems like permission for self-censorship; how many other articles would we just skip to be on the safe side? That doesn't strike me as in line with the encyclopedia's core mission--which is to share knowledge--not to avoid liability. That may be a naive analysis, but I think it's important nonetheless. I acknowledge that a lot of work went into this draft, but I don't conceive of that as reason to recreate or alternately keep the article deleted--the only question for me is does the article meet article creation guidelines and were the issues from the previous AfD sufficiently improved upon. In my opinion, the only lingering issue is the potential legal threat. I note that in all other cases the person expressing that legal concern would likely be blocked rather than heeded, and the article would remain until the foundation intervened. Assuming there are no BLP or RS issues (which might not be fair to assume), why would we respond differently here?
  • If there is a question about the sourcing of the controversy section, let's address that on the merits, perhaps taking it to WP:RSN or WP:BLPN where they can weigh whether Phoenix New Times, Arizona Central, and QuackWatch--the 3 sources on which the controversy section is based--are sufficiently reliable to source this type of claim. Phoenix New Times is used in over 500 actual Wikipedia articles[6] as a reference or external link. Although Cousens characterized Phoenix New Times as a 'tabloid', it's run by the same media group as the Village Voice and has won awards for its investigative reporting [7]. Quackwatch has repeatedly be judged to be reliable for limited areas within its expertise at WP:RSN[8]; examples: [9][10][11]. I note that the Quackwatch article I used is referenced itself and does not cite the Phoenix New Times article; instead it is a secondary reading of court documents, which should broaden the perception that the section is supported only by one source. Arizona Central (now Arizona Republic) is the state's largest newspaper and has been in the top 10 nationally for circulation.[12]
  • In a worst case, the controversy section can still be removed and the article judged on what remains. I don't know what protocol here is, but in the event that concerns did not outright permit recreation, I'd at least appreciate a broader hearing at a relisted AfD if that's within possible responses. Ocaasi ^{t | c} 23:51, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
    • You are very welcome indeed to reply to comments in a deletion review: this is supposed to be a consensus-seeking conversation, and I have no doubt that your thoughtful approach to this will enhance your prospects of success. You raise quite a few issues. You're quite right to say that there's no element of "need" in the concept of notability. Something's either notable or it isn't. But with biographies of living people, notability isn't the only factor and we do sometimes delete BLPs about notable people. This is well-summarised in Sean Williams' closing statement at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Seth Finkelstein (2nd), which was endorsed at deletion review. Basically, administrators have discretion to take the subject's wishes into account in deciding whether or not to delete. This could lead to a deletion even when the subject is otherwise somewhat notable, providing he's not clearly notable (so to use an extreme example, Barack Obama couldn't opt out of having a Wikipedia biography). Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ginger Jolie and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jon Blake (broadcaster) are also relevant examples of how Wikipedians view deletion of BLPs at the subject's request.

      It is, of course, quite true that precedent does not have binding force on Wikipedia, and we might reach a different decision on this case.—S Marshall T/C 12:28, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

      • Thank you for linking to those prior discussion. I wasn't aware that subjects' wishes had been taken into account before. That expands the scope of the debate considerably. I apologize in advance for lacking brevity or approaching polemics.
      • RATIONALE
        • I take seriously that BLP articles can do real world harm to people, and we should be cognizant of that. I didn't write this article to either promote or expose Cousens, only to thoroughly and neutrally describe his significant views and engagements.
        • There are cases where borderline-notable people would have their privacy infringed upon for little benefit to readers, and in those cases I can conceive of taking their views into account and even letting them prevail in deciding to delete an article. This is not one of those cases.
        • Cousens is an internationally noted authority, a global teacher and trusted spiritual advisor. He is not only a doctor to the people who visit him and follow him, but a priest (or Rabbi, since he's into Jewish spirituality). He promotes himself as an expert and independent sources confirm his reputation in the natural health field. People trust this man with their diets, their bodies, their ailments, and their souls. They pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars to receive his guidance.
        • Renown doctors, politicians, religious figures, as public figures, lose their presumption of privacy. Available information, commentary, and criticism on those individuals serves a vital public interest. It is unavoidable that in the neutral presentation of reliably sourced material that we will come upon matters which reflect negatively on the subject. In the case of a small-time academic or fledgling artist, the potential harm that material may do could outweigh the benefit. In this case, the potential harm is intimately linked to the potential good that it serves readers and the public to be informed. As it is our goal to share information with the world, I believe we have not just permission, but a positive duty to cover such topics responsibly.
        • When an individual touts his myriad credentials, accepts money for explaining his views and instructing in his practices, makes novel and bold medical claims which are promoted in newspaper and film, challenges the scientific consensus, and earns a reputation as a guru and expert... these are the very people who are ripe to be a focus of summary and review. These are the people the public, our readers--our customers and clients and peers--not only want to know about but need to know about.
        • I'm sure that the Levy incident was tragic for Cousens and that he is terrified it will prevent all of the positive work he is doing. It looks bad, it sounds bad, it raises caution and red flags. That is not a reason to exclude it; quite the contrary, it's the reason it must be included. It's ironic, because I started this article with the goal of providing information about Cousens for people who would be interested in his teachings--I knew nothing about Charles Levy until midway through my research. But now I will stand to defends its inclusion as an essential component of our mission as an encyclopedia. That might be overly grand, but the principles we espouse are won and lost in the individual cases where they are challenged.
        • Cousens, in sum, has no reasonable expectation of privacy in this case. He lost that when he became an expert, developed a devoted following, sold his knowledge, and promoted his influence, made medical claims, and dismissed scientific consensus; and when other reliable published sources covered his life, work, views, projects and travails in detail; then it became our responsibility to summarize it neutrally.
      • PREDECENT
      • Closed as delete
        • Seth Finklestein: This discussion raised the issue of BLP deletion standards saying, "According to the BLP deletion standards, the closer of the deletion debate should take into account the wishes of the subject if the subject is on the fringe of notability... Editors need to realize, if they haven't done so already, that Wikipedia is not a game. Biographies of living persons are not something to be taken lightly." Although I confer with the second part, I think the first is exclusionary here. There is not a question of Cousens' notability. Durova summarized my sentiment: "By no means do I propose an aggressively PC deletion standard at every Wikipedia article. I do suggest that the subjects of lower-end notability BLP articles be granted more respect when one asks us to delete the particular article about himself or herself. " Is this article really that low on the notability standard, so low that Woody Harrelson talks about him, he has a movie about his work, he blogs on naturalnews.com, gives frequent interviews, is written about in skeptical sources, and has a dedicated feature profile in Rolling Stone Argentina? Suffice to say I don't think it is. Finklestein in said the discussion: "On a human level – setting any personal antipathies aside – it’s fair that we extend one courtesy in return: although Wikipedia is not paper, some living people who began their careers in the era of paper publishing and prefer to lead relatively private lives." But Cousens has actively decided not to lead a private life. He writes books, has a youtube channel, offers courses, promotes his retreat center, and offers his service and guidance to the world. This is a person who may wish to be hidden from scrutiny, but he cannot have it both ways, promoting himself where it serves him but avoiding attention where it may harm his endeavors. That of course is a natural motivation, but it's not our motivation.
        • Jon Blake (broadcaster): Closed with "In my judgment, notability has been neither established nor verified by reliable, non-trivial sources. While I eschew the idea of a subject dictating the terms or presence of an article, there is sufficient precident for such. Wisdom suggests that we are better off without this article at least until notability can be verified." Dragonfly said it succinctly: "The defining characteristic of notability is the presence of coverage in external sources, and this appears to fail." Again, I don't think notability is seriously in doubt here. There are 29 different sources (own website pages: 5 plus 1 for his movie's website; regional news: 11; natural health/food websites: 3; skeptical websites: 3: and the Rolling Stone Argentina feature). There are also 4 unique further reading options which are also RS. And just for kicks, there are also 458,000 Google results for ["Gabriel Cousens" eat raw]. In the case of Blake, there was only 1 major award and the rest of the material had doubts about verification. In the Cousens article the available sources have been exhausted (as far as Google will allow). This is a different beast, because frankly, it appears to be a more thoroughly written and referenced article.
        • Ginger Jolie: This discussion closed no consensus, default to delete. As a pornbio, Durova said, “The difference to Wikipedia's completeness is trivial; the difference to her life is enormous.” I would ask whether we also need to consider the difference this article would make to the lives of our readers, who do not have a voice in this debate as Cousens has had. As much as Cousens has a right to protect his reputation, we have a responsibility to the public to provide valuable (and sometimes critical) information. That is our right, and BLP concerns may influence it, but it does not override it, in my opinion. The closing admin noted WP:NPF which states in part: "Material that may adversely affect a person's reputation should be treated with special care; in many jurisdictions, repeating a defamatory claim is actionable, and there is additional protection for subjects who are not public figures." I would hold that there is no evidence that the controversial claims are defamatory. They are based off of three apparently reputable sources, at least two of which did their own investigation into court documents. I do not believe there is a question of fact as to whether or not the death was actually ruled to be caused by Cousens. And the rest of the section merely presents arguments from both sides in a neutral way. Also, Nil Enne commented that the sourcing in Jolie's article was primarily from her own website and a single award she won. In contrast, Cousens' article draws on a panoply of sources, the majority of which are independent of the source.
        • Rand Fishkin: Durova commented, "Mr. Fishkin's page is a stub and he's probably less notable than either Mr. Finkelstein or Mr. Brandt. I doubt very much that any paper-and-ink encyclopedia would devote an article to him, and although this is sourced, it's basically only five lines of material. That's unlikely to ever grow into a featured article and the person whose most affected by this article's existence would be happier without it." I would note that Cousens' article is definitely not a stub; it is well developed and well organized. It would have a chance of approaching GA status with some work, and even FA status with serious attention. The material to do it is already there.
        • Daniel Brandt: The 14th nomination of this subject resulted in a merge. The close said: "Brandt's activities are subjects of significant commentary, and as such should be covered in this encyclopedia...This article causes Brandt distress, largely because of previous and potential coverage of minor things he'd rather not have discussed in public but which have been mentioned in minor self-published publications Brandt has mostly tried to bury...This article cannot hope to be complete, due to incomplete coverage in the sources, which largely treat him as a private figure." In Cousens' case, he is also the subject of significant commentary and should be covered in the encyclopedia. If the article causes Cousens distress because of the Levy controversy, is it really our role to prevent that rather than just present the information for all of our readers to decide for themselves. Again, in balancing interests of having an article vs. causing harm to the subject, we also need to consider the harm to readers from not having an available and comprehensive article which covers controversial areas. Last, this article can hope to be complete, because the coverage in sources is substantial. In sum, I think the 5 precedents, although mostly controversial 'close calls' which I likely would have supported article creation for, do not apply to Cousens because of the depth of sources on which the article is based, and the care that went into representing their content neutrally.
      • Closed as keep
        • Martin Halstead: The article closed as keep. Catfish Jim and the soapdish said, "Subject is clearly sufficiently notable to warrant an article. I can't see any valid argument for deletion here, although I can see that the article might be slightly embarrassing for the subject." The argument was made that any WP:UNDUE issues should be resolved by fixing the article not deleting it. Similarly, the Cousens article, if there are particular faults or excesses could be improved rather than deleted.
        • Rich Shapero: Close discussion was closed as keep with indefinite semi-protection to prevent vandalism. Nuujinn commented, "Yes, the subject has only published one book, but it's the release of same that garnered attention in the press, and is thus notable." Cousens has published 7 books, several of which were explicitly mentioned in independent newspapers and niche sources. NYKevin said, "If OTRS et al. decide to WP:G9 this, that's their choice. Until then, this is an apparently sourced BLP which should be rewritten through normal channels (i.e. the discussion page)." I agree that unless the Foundation's legal department intervenes, this article should be created and discussed through normal channels rather than preempting legal action ourselves.
        • Tristan Emmanuel This closed as no consensus but defaulted to keep. Close said, "The outcome therefore hinges on whether Emmanuel is a "relatively unknown, non-public figure". After reviewing the discussion, I gather that Emmanuel has been the leader of political rallies and run for public office. It is difficult to conciliate those activities, where public attention is sought, with Emmanuel being a "non-public figure". Since Emmanuel's political activity make him a public figure, the "no consensus" outcome here is defaulting to keep." Like Emmanuel, Cousens is arguably a public figure due to both his reputation, his self-promotion, and his global teaching activities. CJCurrie noted, " I am not opposed to deleting the biographical pages of truly marginal figures whose future prospects may be hindered by past utterances, but Tristan Emmanuel is not a marginal figure. He received extensive media coverage in 2003 and 2005-06". Cousens has also been the subject of relatively extensive media coverage from a variety of sources. GrantNeufeld noted: "The numerous references show, cumulatively, pretty clear notability. The subject’s apparent desire to not have an article about themself should carry no weight here. The key here, as with all such articles, is to ensure that WP:BLP is being followed, which the well-cited content of the articles seems to do."
        • Vanessa Hall-Smith. Closed as keep: "The result was keep as there is consensus here that the topic passes the notability threshold, and the argument that we ought to tear pages out of the encyclopaedia on the whim of the subject is in this case unconvincing." SoWhy noted, "The subject's wish is not to be ignored lightly but someone with such broad coverage in multiple reliable sources and even an articles in The Times is not someone who can be described as a "non-public" figure. Non-public figures don't go around in public or give interviews, do they?" I feel similarly about Cousens' advocacy and promotion. DGG added, "Clearly notable, so we have no basis for removing the article. The (in my opinion disastrously anti-NPOV) policy of paying respect to the subjects wishes only applies in borderline cases, and Director of the British Institute of Florence and a public career reported in reliable sources is not borderline. We're an encyclopedia, not a place where the subjects choose whether or not they want to be written about based on mere preference."
        • Steve Benson (cartoonist): This artist bio with vandalism concerns and controversy sections was closed as keep. Arxiloxos said, "With due sympathy for the vandalism, Benson is a Pulitzer Prize winning cartoonist, a former president of the Association of American Editorial Cartoonists[1], and the subject of substantial coverage throughout his career[2]. He is controversial, and these controversies have been the subject of substantial coverage in reliable sources, e.g. [3][4][5][6][7]. We have an article for every Pulitzer-winning cartoonist since 1971, and all but 3 of the winners since 1940. Deleting the article creates a gap in Wikipedia's encyclopedic coverage of editorial cartooning. There are better remedies for vandalism targets." Although Cousens has not won major awards, the list of people who hail him as an "authority", "expert" "prominent" "leading" individual is long. Natural health figures are an important part of encyclopedic coverage of the alternative medicine field, and I similarly feel lacking this article creates a 'gap' in our coverage.
      • I'll note that there are many deletion discussions and I am looking to find counterexamples of subject-requested-deletions which resulted in keep/create. They're available in the AFD archives and the Deletion Review archives. Ocaasi ^{t | c} 17:25, 7 March 2012 (UTC) Update: I found 5 keeps to match the 5 closes. I don't get a sense that there's an overwhelming consensus one way or the other in these articles. If anything, the standard seems to be mixed--but it always comes down to notability and coverage in reliable sources. In order to keep Cousens' article from being created, there would have to be a more serious effort to show that his notability is somehow lacking, or that the sources are somehow inadequate. I haven't seen that analysis presented here yet. Ocaasi ^{t | c} 19:55, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
        • Off the top of my head, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Martin Halstead (2nd nomination) and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rich Shapero (3rd nomination) were both subject-requested deletions that resulted in keep closures. In both cases there had been earlier AfD debates where the subject hadn't been involved. Alzarian16 (talk) 18:11, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
          • There's no way this is ever going to be anything but a matter of opinion. Mine is generally that marginally-notable people ought to be able to opt out of having a Wikipedia article. But having said that, I also don't object to exposés of alternative medicine and I can see and appreciate that this article will be well-defended from vandals. I'm going to withdraw my !vote above. Please would the closer consider me neutral.—S Marshall T/C 17:36, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

• Permit recreation with an optional relist, though it will need some editing to remove excessive detail, which I am willing to do. The fundamental rule is that Wikipedia is not censored. There's sufficient documented notability. The subject may prefer not to have it, but that's as irrelevant as if he thought the opposite--had it been an entirely positive article I doubt he would have objected. DGG ( talk ) 23:03, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Excessive detail is my weakness at times (at least as an encyclopediast); if you point out some of the worst offending sections, I can try and trim them myself as well. (I don't think that's a reason to exclude the draft, though perhaps something to focus on in my future writing).Ocaasi ^{t | c} 23:51, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
• Question Would it be considered canvassing to ask a few experienced editors who are active in the alternative medicine/pseudoscience area to comment here, provided I merely notify them that the discussion exists and don't make a statement either way about my position? These are people who I have worked with in the past, but often from different sides of a debate; I wouldn't consider them my allies and I respect their independence. What if I try to notify an equal proportion of scientifically minded as well as natural health interested editors? Ocaasi ^{t | c} 02:58, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

• I would suggest a neutrally-worded note on the talk page of a relevant Wikiproject.—S Marshall T/C 12:28, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

• I took your advice and notified WikiProjects Medicine, Alternative Views, Alternative Medicine, and Rational Skepticism. I also left a note at noticeboards BLPN, FTN, and RSN. I hope this wasn't excessive, the messages were short and neutral, for example this notification. I didn't contact individual editors, as that seems a little more fraught with potential bias. Thanks for the tip. Ocaasi ^{t | c} 18:06, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

• Endorse the closure - I oppose Occassi's immediate attempt to recreate. Youreallycan 04:59, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Any reason? If there are specific sections or aspects that need rewriting, it'd be helpful to know. Ocaasi ^{t | c} 09:51, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
    • In addition, there is nothing "immediate" about it. I closed the underlying AfD in August, 2010; this is a substantially different article. Xymmax ^{So let it be written} _{So let it be done} 14:41, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
      • I thought this was a deletion review, excuse me. So theres nothing to endorse. Youreallycan 15:31, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
• Comment. I want to add one more thing to the considerable content I've submitted already. Cousens' reputation is international, as a leading expert in his field. Alternative medicine is a very popular topic, and within it, diet, raw food and spirituality are significant components. Cousens is listed as not just an expert in this area, but one of the most prominent experts. Here's what others have said about him:
  • Rolling Stone Argentina: an American guru and the highest international authority in the field of "live food"
  • NaturalNews: a "pioneer" of the raw foods movement
  • TreeHugger: a "household name" on the subject of raw vegan food
  • emPOWER Magazine: a "published authority on alternative healing and raw living food nutritional therapies.
  • AllAfrica.com: an "internationally acclaimed health guru"
  • Nutraceuticals World: a "highly-reputed medical researcher and internationally-known sprout expert"
  • Portland Press Herald: an "international teacher...considered by some to be a leading medical authority on live food nutrition"
  • Midwest Book Review: "one of the world's foremost experts in the preparation and nutritional values of raw food consumption for the mind and body"
  • Dynamic Chiropractic: a "forerunner" in live food diets
  • Clevelend Jewish News: a "celebrated healer and spiritual facilitator"
  • Actor Woody Harrelson: "In my mind, Gabriel Cousens is probably the greatest living health practitioner."
• I think those speak directly to his notability, his prominence, and his reputation. I think we should have an article on this person. Ocaasi ^{t | c} 03:12, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Are these quotes that you have or intent to use in the article? Although these quotes present the subject in a favorable light - the article you have written and are desirous of publishing using en wikipedia appears more focused on deriding his treatments. Quackguru - is that attack site even a wikipedia reliable source? Youreallycan 05:26, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Those quotes are indeed in the article; however, per DGG's recommendation that the writings was overly detailed I had to merely mention some of them in passing. This article in no way intends to deride Cousens; that is a misperception. Simply because Cousens doesn't want information about a controversy included doesn't mean my purpose in writing the article is to 'get him' by publishing that information. It's merely one aspect of a very long, detailed, and I think balanced treatment. Please give the article a fair and close reading before deciding it has a point of view or an agenda. Cheers, Ocaasi ^{t | c} 06:42, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

And jonny said he was this and harry said he was that and now off to the guackguru style attack of him. Your article doesn't reflect these quotes at all. -they are your excuse to publish the attack content. - If you manage to publish your desired article using en wikipedia - the person in the picture that is not the subject will need cropping out of the picture - I will do it for you if the article is published.Youreallycan 07:43, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I think you are mistaken about both the article's neutrality as well as my own motivations. I will be happy to include every one of those 'positive' quotes. I had done so originally and only shortened them at the request of DGG, who thought listing all of them was too promotional. Since they seem to have a direct bearing on this discussion, I will add them back in full. For the record, I spent about 8 months trying to stop Quackguru from turning Chiropractic into more of a hitpiece than it already was. I also have expanded content on noted alternative health practitioners such as Mary G. Enig and Weston A. Price. I started the holistic dentistry article, Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation, Suzanne Segal and mediated a dispute at Astrology where there was an attempt to put 'pseudoscientific' in the first sentence three words of the introduction. I have tried to be a responsible editor and not promote the views of these subjects , but if anyone who knows my work was going to accuse me of bias, it would be to say that I am too kind and too inclusive of the works of alternative medicine topics. If you're still in doubt, ask User:Yobol or User:WLU, two smart, scientifically minded editors, with whom I have collaborated in the past. I hesitate to be blunt about this, but I think you're just wrong in this case. As I said above, when I started writing this article, I did so at the request of my sister, who is a fan and follower of Cousens. I wanted him to have an article so that who like him could read about him. Only midway through my research did I discover the Levy case. On the merits, even if I was some type of alternative medicine assassin, is there anything in the exact phrasing or construction of the controversy section that you object to? Are the three sources on which it's based not sufficient? YouReallyCan, there are currently 41 references in the article. Three of them focus on the controversy. The article is 4000 words long, of which just over 400 of them are about the controversy. I believe that is a good indicator of the appropriate weight I have given to the subject. I sincerely ask you to give the article a close second look.

I appreciate the offer to crop the picture. I have been in contact with the woman in that photograph through email and she did not object to its use. Is there a reason it needs to be cropped? Ocaasi ^{t | c} 13:59, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

You say, "but if anyone who knows my work was going to accuse me of bias, it would be to say that I am too kind and too inclusive of the works of alternative medicine topics.", thats nice and your comments speak well of you - and your strong desire to replace an OTRS and AFD removed contentious article might well succeed, but that will not stop it being turned slowly slowly into the same kind of article it was previous. Its common knowledge that on en wikipedia there is a strong anti alternative medicine aspect to the whole sector of content and that policy is not strong enough, or complied with enough, to defend a neutral report and that is why I still strongly support this livings persons request for the en wikipedia project to not host a biography on him. As for the picture, whether or not she objects to appearing forever in a wikipedia article, she is not the subject of the article, and she is not a notable person and imo is better cropped out of the picture. My reading of Wikipedia:IMAGES appears to point towards support for this position. Youreallycan 15:48, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I have viewed the OTRS ticket and there was no follow-up that I can see from the Foundation. It was just Cousens expressing his view, exactly as he did at the AfD. That AfD was based on a completely different article than the draft I wrote, which I believe resolved the notability, one event, and neutrality issues. As for what happens if this article goes live, neither deletion nor page protection is designed to preemptively protect articles from turning the wrong way. If needed, that is what semi-protection or full-protection are for. Needless to say, I will keep a close eye on this article assuming it is created, and concerned editors will have to strive to maintain its neutrality, just like on any controversial article. Also, thank you for your consideration of my background and intent here. It sounds like your objection is not based so much on the particular article I wrote but on your broader concerns about BLP policy and its enforcement. If that's a fair description, then I can only suggest that we are constrained to avoid WP:HARM to subjects but also to follow policy and to summarize reliable sources. If I have done that faithfully, then I believe the article should be created, and then watched carefully, rather than kept out of the encyclopedia.

I'm not particularly concerned about the image either way. If we need to crop it, that's fine.Ocaasi ^{t | c} 16:51, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

4 March 2012

Laura Massey

Laura Massey (talk|edit|history|logs|links|cache|watch) (XfD|restore)

Previous DRV's 5 July 2010 * 29 Oct 2010 * 9 Jan 2012 ((added Spartaz ^Humbug! 13:47, 4 March 2012 (UTC)))

Laura Massey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura_Massey has had three deletion reviews all of which have resulted in her page being kept deleted. I have two other sources that were not brought up in the last deletion review for some reason that I would like you to consider.

• "Geek of the Week: Laura Massey, Xbox software engineer" http://www.geekwire.com/2011/geek-week-laura-massey-xbox-software-engineer
• "An Interview With Nerd Trivia Creator Laura Massey" http://bnbgaming.com/2011/05/17/an-interview-with-nerd-trivia-creator-laura-massey

I'm not exactly sure what is needed to get her page back, but she is a growing public figure at Microsoft and is now a Project Manager leading "Xbox Incubation". Google and Bing results for her have increased to 1,270,000 and 11,200,000 respectively. She has created her own game named NerdTrivia http://nerdtrivia.net/ which has thousands (7,074) players and has raised press coverage in the above links.

I would also like to add to this discussion per her former deletion reviews links which by themselves were too weak to overcome the AFD, but perhaps if reviewed together might make for a stronger case for her to meet the WP:N criteria.

• "NerdTrivia Brings Geeky Pub Quizzes to Twitter" http://www.wired.com/underwire/2012/01/nerdtrivia-twitter-game/
• "CNET TV E3 2010: Microsoft Kinect for Xbox 360" Laura Massey appears at 02:03 http://cnettv.cnet.com/e3-2010-microsoft-kinect-xbox-360/9742-1_53-50088986.htmln
• "Microsoft E3 Press Conference Details" http://www.worldofmeh.com/2010/06/microsoft-e3-press-conference-details/
• "E3 2010: Microsoft Press Conference" http://www.slowdown.vg/2010/06/17/e3-2010-microsoft-press-conference/
• "Microsoft Kinects with Dallas from E3" http://www.leadershell.com/2010/06/14/microsoft-kinects-with-dallas-from-e3/

She seems to have done some very notable things in public in and out of her work at Microsoft. Bawitdaba1337 (talk) 03:34, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

• Endorse again. Last DRV was just a month ago, and the supposed "new" evidence is just more of the same, blogs and irrelevant stuff like Google hits... while we're on that topic, while it's true Laura Massey without quotes gets plenty of hits, *with* quotes it has just 589 unique hits, and most of those are unrelated folks who just happen to share that fairly common name. On that last page, for example, I see a doctor, a cyclist, and a bookseller, among others. For comparison's sake, my name gets 501 unique results, and I'm not famous at all. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 04:41, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse Needs RS. Spartaz ^Humbug! 13:47, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
• I'm a bit bewildered by the above two replies. I have absolutely no idea how Starblind came to the conclusion that they were "blogs and irrelevant stuff". When I click the links, I find interviews with the article subject. Now, I'll be the first to admit that the interviews aren't exactly the pinnacle of journalistic brilliance—but they're also pretty far from blogs, aren't they? They're also far from irrelevant, because this nomination shows that Laura Massey is notable by linking to the sources that have actually noted her.

  I think that if we're going to refuse the opportunity to re-create this article then we need to show in what sense the sources linked are unreliable, and I respectfully challenge Starblind and Spartaz to do that. Unless that is shown, I feel that the appropriate response is to endorse the previous deletion as it was done in accordance with the consensus at that time, but permit re-creation on the basis of the new sources provided. Alternatively, if there's significant resistance to the idea of re-creation, we may wish to incubate. A flat refusal without a proper analysis of the sources strikes me as inappropriate in this instance.—S Marshall T/C 12:25, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

• Okay -
  • Wired is an interview about Nerdtrivia not about Laura Massey and since its an interview its a primary source anyway.
  • CNET is another interview and isn't about Laura Massey but a product she is working on.
  • worldofmeh ditto - and references the same interview. An appears to be a blog whose meeting RS is far from clear
  • So does Slowdown.vg and ditto bloginess.
  • And.. guess what.. leadershell is exactly the same
• So what did we have? A grand total of zip about Laura Massey and no RS about her that we can base an RS on. Did you even look at the sources? Please explain how they meet GNG by being non-trivial reliable secondary sources about Laura Massey. Oh look, they aren't. Spartaz ^Humbug! 14:05, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

• Spartaz, those are the sources we've already discussed before. The nominator here mentions two new ones, did you see? I also wonder if you aren't confused about primary sources. Interviews are only primary sources if they're self-published, and even if these were, it would be okay to use them, just not for evaluative or analytical claims.—S Marshall T/C 18:02, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

• Not sure how you'd come to the conclusion that who publishes determines if a source is secondary or primary, it's certainly not the definition used elsewhere e.g. [[13]] or Secondary source. By your standard things like Anne Frank's diary which have been published by others would not be primary sources, that is not the case. --62.254.139.60 (talk) 07:24, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

• FWIW though, being a primary source is of course not a block to using it for non-interpretive purposes, also it isn't necessarily a block to using it for notability purposes, the question posed by notability is about the world taking note, people seeking out interviews would (to my mind) indicate that the world is taking interest, the question would tend more to be about the significance of the source and the triviality of it, taking into account self publicity and that many sites will publish such as being pretty cheap and if it gets them access to other stuff... --62.254.139.60 (talk) 07:31, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

• Anne Frank's diary isn't an interview, it's a personal reminiscence. The difference is significant.—S Marshall T/C 21:35, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

• I'll repeat the basic question which you have not addressed, under which definition of primary and secondary sources does who publishes the material affect the status as primary or secondary? In fact under which definition are the words of a person presented in diary form always primary, but the words of person presented as an interview is only primary if they publish that interview themself. Our definition of Secondary source states "Secondary sources involve generalization, analysis, synthesis, interpretation, or evaluation of the original information.", nothing about who does the publishing. Can you please explain how writing out the words of an individual does any of those things? Verbatim reproduction of a primary source does not generate a secondary source. --62.254.139.60 (talk) 22:39, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

• An interview isn't a verbatim reproduction, though, is it? Please read the first couple of paragraphs of each of the two interviews that the nominator cites. You'll find that although much of the interview is just a lightly-edited record of a conversation, it is bookended with a pen-portrait of the interviewee, usually written by the interviewing journalist. That pen-portrait comprises the generalisation, analysis, synthesis etc. to which you refer.—S Marshall T/C 22:54, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
• I'm lost for words, if you've read that interview and think the "light editing" escalates it to a secondary source, then I'm seriously worried about the standards you apply, there is no synthesis, generatalisation etc in it. As to if an interview is a verbatim reproduction of what was said - for any given interview at which I wasn't present, I've no idea, were you present at that interview, can you validate what was/wasn't said and if that's a verbatim reproduction or not? Regardless you still don't answer the question, how does who publishes it effect that? The same light editing etc. could all have taken place by the journalist before the person them self published the results - how would that differ? You might also be interested in Wikipedia:NOR#cite_note-2 which lists types of primary sources, which of course contains interviews and mentions nothing about who publishes them. --62.254.139.60 (talk) 07:21, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Source—Analytical content: "Laura Massey is big into games, to say the least. She’s a software engineer for Microsoft’s Xbox 360 video game console, part of a team working on top-secret stuff for the Redmond software company". Source—Analytical content: "Social media and an increasingly competitive gaming atmosphere have swirled together to make talking smack and one-upping your friends an effortless endeavor. Thanks to Xbox Software Development Engineer in Test Laura Massey, you now have a chance to prove who among your friends is the biggest nerd with Nerd Trivia, her new Twitter game.

"Laura (also known by her Gamertag “lollip0p” [editor's note: that's a zero in "pop," the WordPress font makes it indistinguishable from an O]), co-host of the weekly “Major Nelson Radio” podcast, has worked on some of the Xbox 360’s most defining features including the Xbox LIVE Party feature and the Kinect software. A “codist” by trade, many references have been made on the podcast about her love for puzzles and skills at creating different computer programs."

Does that make it clearer for you?—S Marshall T/C 12:07, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

• No doesn't help, I disagree that they are analysis of the sources, but never mind, Duke University disagree with you, general wikipedia policies disagree with you, that you can convince yourself of this is of little or no consequence. You still failed to answer the key question repeatedly asked, so I assume you have no answer. --62.254.139.60 (talk) 18:56, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

• Isn't it obvious? A primary source is something written by someone who lacks objective distance, so an eyewitness account, a writeup of an experiment by the experimenter, a historical document, etc. Journalists, historians and other professional report-writers are presumed to have objective distance because that's what they do. The identity of a publisher matters because editorial supervision is one of the things that can give objective distance. In reason and logic an interview written by a journalist and published by a news organisation, which goes beyond a bare transcription to include some analytical content, is a secondary source. It may not be a very good secondary source, but that's what it is. And the fact that Duke's University include interviews as primary sources in their simplistic guide here doesn't exactly cut much ice with me, I'm afraid: read the rather more nuanced guide in the sidebar here.—S Marshall T/C 19:31, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

• Endorse salt, ban. Jesus christ how many times to we have to discuss the Xbox chick? This is the same as ever, some bare scrapings of mentions in sources. Time for the fan club to just let this one go. Tarc (talk) 15:45, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

• Endorse. Tarc's comments may not be terribly politic, but they do hit the nail on the head. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 20:47, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

• Overturn to No Consensus meaning Keep. It is disheartening to see that things haven't changed much on the project. There seem to be compelling arguments on both sides, and even some previous AfD's seemed to have been split. Now, considering that the young lady does seem to enjoy a degree of notability among a certain group of individuals, and that there do exist (arguable) RS, I think we have here a poster child of no concensus. THIS is what the project is to me. We are not limited by a number of pages. It will be sooo much more interesting for future generations to read about Ms. Massey here than all project-included notability-satisfied politicians put together. Respectfully Turqoise127 21:08, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

  The prior AfDs had a consensus to delete, a finding upheld here at DRV. More sources can't "upgrade" a consensus to delete to a finding of no-consensus, that would be ugly bureaucratic wonkery at its worst. This isn't a project to write about people with "a degree of notability among a certain group of individuals". I'm sorry, but there's many subgenres of nerdom (or nerd-dom?) who think that what they <3 is the most Terribly Important Thing on Earth(tm), but hasn't quite set the world of reliable sources outside their little sphere afire. Tarc (talk) 23:10, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

  Huh? I must admit I did not understand much of your comment and the little silly signs or whatever, but I will say this; more sources can not only "upgrade" a consensus to delete to a finding of no-consensus, more sources can make an article downright notable in every aspect and undo any AfD or DRV. Having said that, I do not appreciate you telling me what this project is not, you can say what it is to you, but please do not decidedly jump to a conclusion that what I think the project is -is incorrect. Ridiculous. Turqoise127 03:05, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

  I'm sure there's English translators around if you are in need. I simply do not like the suggestion of "Overturn to No Consensus meaning Keep", it is just plain ridiculous. Either the sources are judged to be not enough to satisfy notability or one of the Massey fanclub can try his luck and recreating the article and hope it is different enough from the last version to get past a G4 speedy deletion, or hope that it survives yet another AfD. And yes if I think you are incorrect I will cheerfully tell you that you're incorrect. There's a lot of fancruft deleted here that heads out to specialized wikia projects, which IMO is quite a good thing. Tarc (talk) 13:34, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

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