Wikipedia:Editor assistance/Requests/Archive 119

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Need help writing first article

Answered: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:49, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I have read the articles regarding writing your first article, got started but am still having problems. Can anyone help me with the editing.

Article is Hakea leucoptera

Saltbush2880Saltbush2880 (talk) 23:25, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia:Copy-paste. You have copied almost the entire article from here: [1]. This is almost certainly a copyright infringement. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:32, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
You have not said what problems you need help with. To fix the citation errors you need to add {{reflist}} (usually in a section titled "References") to the page which will cause the citations to be displayed. SpinningSpark 23:49, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Peter Symonds College

Answered: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:49, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Peter Symonds College (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I have been dramatically improving this page and changing the structure in the process. I'm struggling to come up with a suitable structure for the page that fits with other sixth-form college's yet also keeps the information organised neatly. Some advice would be appreciated. If anyone wants to help with general editing and finding references then that would also be appreciated. --Jwikiediting (talk) 15:50, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

First comment is you need to beef up the lead section. My ideal for a lead section is it should be a two-to-three paragraph summary of the page contents. See generally, MOS:LEDE. Four or (rarely) five paragraphs can work for very broad topics, though in such cases the additional content in the article should probably be broken out into independent articles and summarized in the overview article (and such summary would again be summarized in the lead, probably as one or two sentences, thus reducing the need for additional paragraphs). A second comment would be that your History section needs to be fleshed out; while this can be hard to find for some institutions, occasionally there may be official histories published in books (i.e., stuff that hasn't yet been mirrored online), as well as stuff published by local historical societies. Newspaper databases are useful for important dates. I think history is the most significant hole in the current article's structure. As to keeping with other articles' structures, you should keep in mind that Wikipedia doesn't work like case law—you don't need to follow other articles presuming they're right. Though there's something to be said for standardization, and following the example of FAs or GAs, I think you should lean towards neat organization. Anyway, I think you've got a good start at that article. Keep up the good work! —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 04:02, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

ten year old Website not allowed at Wiki

Resolved: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:50, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Web site makes viewers sick? in a significant manner by[1] No one can make a wiki item about this community.You can try but you will fail. What I said ten years ago still stands true today. If you have a look you will find Wikipedia has nothing about it. It may as well not exist but for Google, which finds it without problem. oh well. The designer says we don't need people who are NOT not looking for a little extra cash, this way we only get the poor who are the target group anyway — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:51, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia only has articles about subjects that have been covered in a significant manner by third party sources. Just being on the web for 10 years, (although that is a hundred in human years) doesnt mean that the subject meets the requirement for a stand alone article see the details : WP:GNG or the simple version WP:42, just like my grandfather who was a hundred years old doesnt merit an article for that achievement. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:59, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
Visited the website. I think I just threw up in my mouth a little. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 01:56, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
Yup. Not the sort of website we'd allow on Wikipedia if you held a gun to our heads. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:02, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
I particularly loved the ad "Is this a scam? Click here to find out!" 02:23, 21 October 2013 (UTC)


Answered: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:51, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Lenddo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

A rather tenacious editor at keeps adding a "controversy" section to the article and cites a Mother Jones article, which is fine except there are two problems: 1) I could not find anything about a 'controversy' specifically about this company anywhere; and 2) he misquotes the article to make it seem like the comments are specifically about this company. Previously, he also added blatant lies (as seen on this version: I have tried warning him, I've tried the talk page--he seems hellbent on keeping his section and ignoring all comments, and keeps claiming that the contents are full of "advertising copy," even though the content has already undergone a deletion debate and was considered factual enough. For the time being, I tried rewriting his section to make it sound more neutral. Please help me on what to do. Eljeffo9999 (talk) 16:22, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, frankly, the article as written does come off as advertising copy. But it looks like you're getting assistance at this point. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 01:39, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

How to resolve banner warnings?

Answered: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:52, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I created my first page yesterday. Quite rightly, it was flagged as having these problems:

  • This article has an unclear citation style.
  • This article may contain an excessive amount of intricate detail that may only interest a specific audience.
  • This article's use of external links may not follow Wikipedia's policies or guidelines.

I found those very helpful and I immediately set about addressing each.

My question: When will the warning banners at the top of the page be removed? There is no specific advice in the Talk section, so it's hard for me to judge whether I've resolved those issues.

Thanks! Citizenofdaworld Citizenofdaworld (talk) 20:37, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Any editor can remove the templates once the issue they relate to is fixed. However, as an involved editor, before removing them yourself, you may find it advisable to consult the editor who added them to see if they agree. You can find out who added the templates by clicking on the "history" tab of the page. SpinningSpark 21:25, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Many thanks! Citizenofdaworld (talk) 22:14, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Smith Island, Maryland

Resolved: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:52, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Smith Island, Maryland (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I have a policy question and could not find a more specific place to ask it.

I am planning on expanding the Smith Island article in the near future, but I need someone with a good grasp of WP:TITLE and WP:PLACE to resolve an inconvenient issue regarding the article title. (It is perhaps best to show what I'm talking about on a map [2]) Smith Island is an island in the Chesapeake Bay that geographically straddles the Maryland-Virginia border with territory in both states. The article title refers to "Smith Island, Maryland" and may seem to give the false impression that the entirety of the island lies within the Maryland border. Most of it certainly does--and all of the inhabited territory is in Maryland. However, I think the article should address the entirety of the history of the island, irrespective of where the state line demarcates. Thus, I'm confused as to how to proceed. Should the article remain titled as it is but include history of what went on in the Virginian zone? Should the article be moved to Smith Island, Maryland and Virginia? Should it perhaps be titled Smith Island (Chesapeake Bay)?

Complicating this issue is the existence of a completely different island: Smith Island, Virginia. Some advice, please? Thank you. -- Veggies (talk) 11:19, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

I would go with Smith Island (Chesapeake Bay). Strange that the state border seems to go out of its way to cut the island in half. SpinningSpark 16:06, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
Actually, Smith Island, Maryland is about the settlement, not about the geographical feature. Smith Island (Chesapeake Bay) would be the title for a separate article on the geographical feature, which (unlike the settlement) does straddle the border. --Orange Mike | Talk 18:21, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
Good point that had escaped my notice. SpinningSpark 18:59, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
Excellent point. Thank you. -- Veggies (talk) 01:07, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

IP user

Resolved: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:53, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I am having a bit of trouble with a disruptive IP editor, (previous IP - and I strongly suspect that he is the blocked user Autismal - who has a similar editing pattern). He seems peeved that I reverted a few of his bizarre comments on the talk pages of several articles, and is now harassing me on my page. His comments on Talk:Côte Saint-Luc and on my own user page strike me as anti-Semitic. His previous IP added defamatory content to Talk:Denis Coderre, Talk:Michael Applebaum. Thank you. --MTLskyline (talk) 16:51, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

You should be taking this to an administrators page such as WP:ANI, but I agree that the IPs comments are neither helpful not desirable. The last action of the IP was to blank their talk page about five hours ago. We usually interpret such an action as having read and digested the warnings on the page until proved otherwise. There have been no further disruptive edits from that IP since the final warning on the page. SpinningSpark 17:06, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply. He's at it again. I'll raise the issue there.--MTLskyline (talk) 20:34, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
I've blocked him for 72 hours for disruptive editing after seeing the edit summary here. --GraemeL (talk) 20:43, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for your help. --MTLskyline (talk) 23:32, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Single purpose account/COI

Resolved: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:45, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm quite possibly in the wrong place. If so, my apologies and please point me to where I should be.
When checking the Recent Changes, I came across Prime college (Contributions, as user has no user- or talkpage yet), a new user whose only purpose so far is editing the article Prime College. Unfortunately, I feel I am not familiar enough with the warning templates and procedures to leave them a message myself, especially as the edits seem to be made in good faith. If someone more experienced in handling this could tackle it, I'd be thankful.
AddWittyNameHere (talk) 07:24, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

EDIT: User now has a talkpage. AddWittyNameHere (talk) 07:32, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Using warning templates is easy especially if you have installed WP:Twinkle. It will avoid the need of scanning through the catalog of our 100s of warnings at Wikipedia:WikiProject user warnings to locate the one you need. It also allows you to preview the template message before saving it. User talk:Prime college needs the combined COI/Username warning even if their edits are within policy and guidelines. You may also wish to read Wikipedia:Username policy to know what that user will be required to do. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:44, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Alright, thank you. I currently do not have WP:Twinkle installed, so I'll be doing this one manually. At least you pointed me to the right template, so that does help a lot, and once I have the time, I'll be installing Twinkle. (In the mean time, what if anything should be done with the edits said user already made on the subject?) AddWittyNameHere (talk) 07:53, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
If their edits are within policy and guidelines, nothing; if they are clearly not, revert them with an appropriate edit summary, and then find a suitable warning template for their user talk page. But their username is not within policy. BTW, no need to TB my talk page, I have this forum on my watchlist. If you are going to do a lot of this kind of work, and I hope you will, keep checking your watchlist for developments on articles and pages you have edited, and users you have warned. I think somewhere in your user prefs there is an option to add all pages that you have edited automatically to your watchlist (see Preferences > watchlist) . Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:08, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Alright, won't TB you again. =) Just seemed common courtesy after you TBed me, as I didn't know how busy you were and all that. Left them the combined COI/Username warning, feel free to check to see if I did it right. I currently don't have that preference added, but for most pages I manually check that box anyway. (Basically, everything where I do more than correct punctuation/spelling/homophone confusion/etc.) However, I'll take a look at those prefs to see where that option is hiding itself. It's easier to unlist the occasional page than it is to find back a page I forgot to check.
Regarding the edits themselves, I think they can stay. The page is a bit of a mess in my opinion, but it also was a mess before their edits and I don't think they're outside policy and guidelines. With possible exception of the removal of two stub-tags/templates, but with their additions I'm not sure the page qualifies as stub any more. AddWittyNameHere (talk) 08:29, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
You've done all the right things. If you need any further help with this kind of thing, don't hesitate to ask me direct on my talk page. Happy editing! Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:44, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

usher artistry and legacy

Answered: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:30, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Usher (entertainer) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

usher is one of the best artist of our generation but one of our only ones without an artistry and legacy on his wikipedia page, i just wanna request that an artistry and legacy article be written thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tino turner (talkcontribs) 05:16, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Seems a bit young to have a "legacy" section: with those sections you're usually thinking of someone who has influenced more than one subsequent generation of individuals in the same profession, and usually after his death. Anyway, the proper venue for discussing this is at Talk:Usher (entertainer); you should definitely look into asking there, because it looks like there's a healthy community supporting that article. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 06:04, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Marion Zimmer Bradley, NPOV & sexual abuse

Answered: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:31, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Marion Zimmer Bradley (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

On the Marion Zimmer Bradley article, a reference to her accepting her husband Walter Breen's sexual abuse of a fourteen year old was changed to "sexual relationship" by someone citing W:NPOV. This was not discussed on the talk page prior to the change, although there is some argument on the talk page about whether the source for the information is credible. Having reviewed W:NPOV I can find nothing in it that requires description of something which is sexual abuse in a given jurisdiction be softened to "sexual relationship" to be neutral. Is there any precedent that W:NPOV requires sexual abuse of a minor to be described as a "sexual relationship" with that minor, a phrasing which infers consent on the part of the abused minor?

Parcequilfaut (talk) 05:28, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

This isn't the kind of editing help request that we generally process on this forum. I suggest you wait for response to the discussion you have started on the article talk page, and if nothing is forthcoming, contact the other participating editors directly on their talk pages. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:26, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

media heading under Secaucus, NJ article

Answered: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:31, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Please add the name of the 100 year old independent newspaper in Secaucus owned by Gretchen Henkel. It is called The Secaucus Home News. Thank you. -- (talk) 17:33, 28 October 2013 (UTC)RJCauthor

-- (talk) 17:31, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

This isn't the kind of request we process at this forum. As far as I can see however, the article has not been edit protected, so you are welcome to make any changes yourself within our policies and guidelines. You may also wish to start a discussion on the article's talk page that hasn't seen a comment for over 4 years.Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:23, 29 October 2013 (UTC)


Answered: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:32, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Magisto (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

There seems to be an impasse about this article, A review from a registered editor would be most beneficial. (talk) 06:10, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

This isn't the kind of request we generally process on this forum. FWIW, there has however been a lot of IP editing but I cannot judge its accuracy. I recommend taking the issues up with the other contributing editors by leaving messages on their talk pages, and drawing their attention to the discussion you have started on the article's talk page. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:18, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Yeesh. What a mess. Why would you make so many edits just to remove a section? It doesn't make it look any more justified, nor make the likely pending revert by the other IP user look any less legitimate. And it won't get you a pass to 3RR if it comes down to it. All that said, the privacy section doesn't belong as there just isn't a source for the fairly broad claims it's making. And by the way, I see from this edit that you had reason to be concerned that WP:COI might prohibit COI-afflicted editors from editing. You may also be interested to know that even though such editing is not prohibited, it is generally frowned upon, especially where the editor making said edits has not openly disclosed said conflict of interest. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 14:00, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Possible COI; just the facts.

Answered: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:38, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I am an author and wish to add the title of my book, Spunk, a Fable, to the entry on Spunk. I only want to state the following, and to sign my post:

Spunk, a Fable is a self-published book and the first adult novel by children's author Helen H. Moore (A Poem a Day, Pick a Poem, etc.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Helliepie (talkcontribs) 15:10, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that is probably not going to be possible. Wikipedia is not for the purpose of promotion. If your book has been substantially discussed in multiple third-party sources which have an established reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, then it might qualify for an article about the book (see NBOOK for the detailed criteria for books to be mentioned in Wikipedia). Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:19, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
I think the OP is specifically asking about adding a line to the Spunk dab page that mentions his book. The problem, of course, with that is that MOS:DAB generally requires that entries on disambiguation pages point to an existing article, or at least to a redlink that some non-disambiguation page points to. Neither of these cases appear to be met. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 16:57, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Concerning--"This article needs additional citations for verification"

St. Louis University High School (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

'nuff said. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 13:44, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Link is here:

Previously the "additional citations" notice was placed at the top of the page. I have tried to help in this regard, for those sections concerning which I am informed. For several sections I believe this has already been accomplished. Therefore, I deleted the "additional citations" notice from the top, but not from those sections that remain inadequately referenced.

I understand that I could try to engage John from Idegon in discussion concerning this, but my admittedly fallible judgment is that this editor uses a meat cleaver when a scalpel is called for, as a matter of habit. Concretely, as it applies here, the entire article should not be subject to the "additional citations" warning when it is only sections within that are insufficiently referenced. This is not the only instance wherein John from Idegon (whose name has been changing during the course of the editing process)has opted for the meat cleaver over the scalpel.

The reason cited for reversing this edit of mine is that "still primarily self-referenced." It would be accurate to say that some of the edits refer to the institution's own newspaper, but to say "primarily" evinces an unwillingness to actually check the citations. Again, meat cleaver over scalpel.

My reason for not choosing to engage this editor is based upon previous behavior. And, please forgive me if this is a complaint about wiki that you have heard too many times: it is very difficult to keep up with people who are able to devote large amounts of time to editing, and who fixate on particular articles. It is just a fact of life that time is limited for some of us; less so, perhaps much less so, for others. This fact greatly influences editing.

One final word: it is the case that "self-referenced," defined as a source that is somehow associated with the institution, accurately describes some citations. I think this is not necessarily prejudicial, as these are published documents for which the institutions must be held accountable. Citing those references that I added which might be classified as "self-referenced," so defined, is, in my humble opinion, warranted.

In sum: there is an important difference between attempts at constructive editing and less-than-careful, meat cleaver approaches to editing. Thank you for your time.Questpq (talk) 08:52, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Thoroughly reviewing articles and checking references for veracity and reliability is not within the remit of this forum. However, points to ponder are our guidelines at WP:Reliable sources and WP:Primary sources. There are no hard and fast rules about whether individual sections should be tagged for attention, or the whole article; there is also the option of tagging unsourced claims with the inline template at Template:Citation needed.
That said, the article is overly detailed and leaning towards promotional - for the guidelines for school articles please see WP:WPSCH/AG. Regarding the editing by other editors, you may wish to start a discussion on the article's talk page that hasn't seen any movement for over two months. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 17:49, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
I agree with Kudpung here. The level of detail in this article is, while typical of articles on secondary schools, bordering on promotional. Things like "notable alumni" should at best be broken out into a list article. In my opinion, however, it should be at least pared down, if not wholly removed and instead be accomplished through categories in the individual subjects' articles.
As to the article maintenance box at the center of OP's complaint, this is a typical issue. There is no policy, or even guideline, that I know of for when a maintenance box should be removed. Some editors see them as badges of shame, others see them as necessary notices to readers on deficiencies in the article. {{unreferenced}} and its progeny are probably the most important maintenance boxes we use, since they inform our readers of deficiencies in articles with respect to a core tenet of Wikipedia that might not otherwise be readily apparent to the uninitiated reader (whereas neutrality and writing quality issues are often fairly apparent even without a notice). In this case, I would argue that the issue is whether moving from the status quo (template present) to a different state (no template, or templated sections) is something that needs to be decided by consensus between the involved parties. Respectfully, Questpq, the fact that you're not willing or able to devote as much time as another editor to editing Wikipedia is not something that can excuse you from even trying. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 23:49, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

My sincere thanks to you both for your observations. There is some of what you say that I agree with, and I have no doubt but that both of you are much more familiar than am I with wiki policy and practice. Just a few points, though I realize that what I write here concerns mostly systemic rather than individual problems: (1) Respectfully, time matters. It is a scarce resource. The rules of the game allow that people with much of this resource will succeed, while those who strive to be accurate and perspicacious fail. BTW, I have been trying. But I have no more time to spend on this. Children, work...things like that. (2) Neither of you, insofar as I can tell responded to my meat cleaver-scalpel analogy. It is not a question of "Thoroughly reviewing articles and checking...", it is a matter of at least "checking" before editing. Or am I wrong here? (3)I read carefully the section of "reliable sources" and then looked back at wikipedia itself. Amazing how few sources conform to the "reliable" description. By comparison, fully admitting that your "promotional" charge is warranted, this article should be taken as a model of reliability. And, (4) there is more I should say, but what really bothers me is that wikipedia dominates the internet. There is something deeply wrong with a system that (yes, I'm certain you've heard this before) allows people to promote those who partake of fame while ignoring those who have substance. An elitist few? Perhaps. As for this page, it would be better were interested people to check the institution's homepage and familiarize themselves with the institution itself, good and bad. But wikipedia has become the default mode of checking, and I think you would not deny that there are too many people out there who can surf destructively across the net. Can that be dealt with? Yes, but that brings us back to the matter of time as a scarce resource. My thanks to you both once again.Questpq (talk) 13:17, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

If you want to criticise the principles of Wikipedia then this is not the place to do it. What we do here is give advice on editing. If you don't want to edit because you don't have time or for any other reason, then there is nothing we can do for you on this page. Verifiability is one of our core policies, if you want to play here, those are the rules you have to play by. To answer your numbered points in order,
  1. Those who are "accurate and perspicacious" do not fail here, we reward such editors. We judge accuracy by how well an article complies with WP:V. With respect, you have not been trying to engage the other editor. That is normally done on the article talk page or the editor's talk page. I see nothing from you on either.
  2. Mendaliv has answered your scalpel/meat cleaver point above. It is a matter of editorial judgement and can be discussed on the talk pages. The bottom line is that the article is completely devoid of references for large sections of the article and this needs to be fixed. It is really secondary whether the most appropriate templates have been used or the attitude of the person inserting them.
  3. The state of other articles and the reliability of their references is irrelevant. We have millions of pages whose quality ranges from Featured articles to useless stubs. Every page is judged on its own merits against our content criteria. There is no way that we are going to take a page that miserably fails to conform to WP:V and has WP:COI editing issues as a "model of reliability".
  4. We do not promote fame and ignore substance at all. Fame has been deliberately not included among the criteria for inclusion. The reason for that is that fame and importance are subjective judgements. The criterion we use is notability which can be objectively tested. True, many of us would agree that that has resulted in too many articles about celebrities and their works, but that is only because more people are interested in writing such articles. We still want and encourage other subjects. SpinningSpark 14:59, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I understand that this is not the place for criticizing Wiki's principles. Point taken. Is there such a place? Briefly: (1) Others tried to engage. Not me. I was trying to improve the quality, and noticed the meat cleaver approach. I saw no point in trying to engage the meat cleaver mentality. Attitude does matter; serious encyclopedia editors don't allow for such a mentality. It wastes time, among other things. Evolution works this way, but evolution is slow and cares only about survival. Mother Nature is not cut out to be an encyclopedia editor. (2)"The bottom line is that the article is completely devoid of references for large sections of the article and this needs to be fixed. It is really secondary whether the most appropriate templates have been used...". I submit that the impression given is not secondary. (3)Again, acknowledging that this is not the place, the problem resides with the operational definitions and their real-world, real-time applications, e.g. Verifiability. (4) "Those who are "accurate and perspicacious" do not fail here, we reward such editors." I'm certain there are instances of such, but I would very much like to see evidence to show that this is generally true. But enough of this. As you say, this is not the place. I do thank you for your replies.Questpq (talk) 10:54, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Is there such a place? Yes, but it depends what you want. If you want to make serious suggestions for improving our policies and procedures there is WP:VP. On the other hand if you just want to rant about how shabbily you have been treated you might like to join the outcasts and pathetic losers at The Wikipedia Review who snipe at us from the sidelines.
I saw no point in trying to engage. Wikipedia is a place where anyone can edit; a wide range of people from disparate backgrounds need to work together. We expect editors to collaborate in a collegial atmosphere. That means that you must engage when there is a dispute. If you are not willing to do that you either need to just suck it up or leave it to others. If you won't engage there is nothing further we can do for you here. Our advice in resolving disputes is always that the first stage is to open a discussion. Without that there is not going to be any second, third or fourth stage.
If we had not done it this way Wikipedia would not have happened. You can't have crowd-sourcing without a crowd, and crowds can be unruly. The history of Nupedia shows quite clearly where we would have been if we had not adopted this method.
Our primary purpose is to build an encyclopaedia. Maintenance templates are there to indicate it needs building better in certain places. It is entirely unproductive to continue to debate the quality of the templates, it's the quality of the article that needs addressing.
I would very much like to see evidence. All our quality standards and reviews, such as WP:DYK, WP:GA, WP:FA and Wikiproject reviews, look at the quality of referencing to judge an article. Those who put in the work to verify accuracy with good quality referencing are rewarded with a quality mark on the article. On the other hand, bad articles are nominated for deletion at WP:AFD. It is extraordinarily rare for a well-referenced article to be nominated for deletion, let alone actually deleted. SpinningSpark 11:54, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

"...if you just want to rant about how shabbily you have been treated you might like to join the outcasts and pathetic losers..."

Hmmm, so much for civility and decorum.

Seems like an admission of tribal mentality and unwillingness to confront the possibility that more harm than good might be brought into the world by the potentially toxic combination of loose rules, lax supervision, scattered culpability, and failure to acknowledge real-world conditions.

It's your gig, true. Not mine. I just have to live in a world where your gig's influence is vastly incommensurate with its worth and reliability. Hence, the comments given here. I'll let you have the last word, if you are so inclined. Farewell.Questpq (talk) 12:58, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

The last word is that I think this thread has outlived its usefulness on this Editor Assistance forum, so I'm closing it. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 13:37, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wu Sangui's article, difference between the agreement in Simplified Chinese and English (shown in the attached .jpg)

Answered: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:19, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Dear readers,

The article “Wu Sangui” in Wikipedia contains most of the facts that are not the same as I found. These facts would cause an unfair judgment to Wu Sangui. I separate the facts in the article that are accurate. Please compare the story in the article with the following.

Wu was a military general to defend the gates of the Great Wall of China at Shanghai Pass in the fall of Ming dynasty in China. Before Wu opened the gates of the Great Wall of China at Shanghai Pass to let the Qing forces into China proper on 25 May 1644, Wu and Dorgon, the Qing Leader, had a negotiation. Wu agreed to open the gates of the Great Wall of China. Dorgon promised to let the three provinces, Yunnan, Fujian, and Guangdong remain independent from the territory of Qing Empire. The slogan of Qing Empire became “Restore Ming Dynasty”. At that time, the bandits of Li Zicheng had already sacked the Ming capital Beijing.



After the death of Dorgon on 31 December 1650, Shunzhi Emperor became the Qing Leader and started to rule personally. Shunzhi Emperor started the plan to get back the three provinces, Yunnan, Fujian, and Guangdong from the control of Wu, an influential person in Southern Ming. In 1655, Qing government titled Wu as “Pingxi Prince” and Wu granted governorship of two provinces, Yunnan and Guizhou. Qing government also titled the other two generals, Shang Kexi and and Geng Zhongming, who had served in Ming Dynasty, as “Pingnan Prince” and “Jingnan Prince”. Shang was put in charge of the province of Guangdong while Geng was put in charge of the province of Fujian.

After the death of Shunzhi Emperor on 5 February 1661, Kangxi Emperor became the successor of the Qing Dynasty. Kangxi Emperor broke the promise made by Dorgon to Wu. At that time, Geng Jingzhong had inherited the title of “Jingnan Prince” from his father Geng Jimao, who had the title inherited from his grandfather Geng Zhongming. In 1673, Kangxi Emperor accepted the request of Shang’s retirement. Kangxi Emperor also accepted the request of Wu’s retirement and Geng’s retirement shortly after Shang’s retirement.

The war between Wu and Kangxi Emperor started in the following year. Zheng Jing, who was the King of Taiwan, joined the force against Kangxi Emperor. In 1678, Wu claimed himself the emperor of Great Zhou Dynasty. The generals were Wu Sangui, Wu Shifan, Geng Jingzhong, and Shang Zhixin. In 1681, the Great Zhou Dynasty was completely destroyed. The generals were captured or died. Zheng surrendered to Qing in October 1683. Taiwan and the three provinces, Yunnan, Fujian, and Guangdong, became part of Qing Empire after the war.

Kangxi Emperor broke the promise of Dorgon to Wu was known to all the scholars. Many scholars refused to serve Kangxi Emperor in the compilation of a dictionary of Chinese characters, which became known as Kangxi Dictionary. Many people were arrested under literary inquisition or speech crime. However, the well-known inquisition was the “Case of the History of the Ming Dynasty” in 1661-1662 before Kangxi Emperor came in power in 1669; Wu was “Pingxi Prince” at that time.

This story contradicts to the section of the article, “Loyalty and revolt”, which is unfair to Wu. Kangxi Emperor, who had many achievements in diplomat afterwards, had denied the agreement made by Dorgon with Wu. For hundreds of years, Wu was judged unfairly in China. As more and more people knew Kangxi Emperor, people with different cultures would think differently. This is the famous “Revolt of the Three Feudatories”.

Please help me improving the above story. Wu Sangui belong to the people of Qing Dynasty and the people overthrowing Qing and restoring Ming (1644-1912). I am thinking of another version, which is fair to Wu Sangui.




Thanks, (talk) 20:22, 1 November 2013 (UTC)Sangui Wu.

We present content in proportion to the mainstream academics in the area hold particular views. One (or even two) sources would not really be sufficient to replace the views held by the mainstream academics, especially because your sources do not look like a particularly reliable sources. You may be able to make a case that other views also need to be included, but you will need to make that case in discussion on the article's talk page and have reliable sources to back your position.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:38, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Anthony Dover

Answered: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:20, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Writer of over50 books online over5000 paintings painted and exhibited in Dorset link to my artist website is books are available on amazon waterstones — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 08:21, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

You are probably looking for WP:Suggested articles. Our requirement for notability of a subject before it can be included is summarised at WP:42. SpinningSpark 10:28, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Biography of Ambassador Nana Effah Appenteng of Ghana

Resolved: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:21, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

I have the permission of Ambassador Nana Effah-Appenteng to edit and up-date his profile. I have sucessfully up-dated his profile. However, I was unable to delete the error of describing him as belonging to a political party, the National Patriotic Party. This error emanates from classifying Ambassador Effah-Appenteng as a politician and placing his profile in the Ghanaian Politician Stub.His profile should rather be in the Ghanaian Diplomat Stub. Accordingly, the political party affiliation indicated in the box to the right of the page should also be deleted. Can someone help effect these changes as requested by Ambassador Effah-Appenteng. His attention was drawn to the page by my goodself yesterday, October 28th, 2013. And today he authorised me to make relevant correction after up-dating his profile. waak — Preceding unsigned comment added by Awinador (talkcontribs) 02:32, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:38, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
I also removed a paragraph that the OP had added, which was stated as sourced to a telephone interview. Personal communications (a la the everpresent pers. comm. citations in academia) are unacceptable sources. See WP:PUS, which cites WP:NOR. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 17:26, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Attack page in user's sandbox

Answered: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:21, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

I came across a new editor today, whose only edits so far consist of vandalising two pages to harass someone, creating an attack page and creating a sandbox page that is a mild(er) attack page in their own userspace. I know how to handle the vandalism (reverted, user warned) and the attack page (CSD-tagged, user notified/warned), but I am uncertain of how to handle the sandbox page. I have already reported the user at AIV and shortly mentioned the attack page in sandbox. Can I expect an admin to further handle this, or is it considered acceptable to slap a CSD on the sandpage despite it being in their userspace on this occasion? AddWittyNameHere (talk) 03:36, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

An admin handled this in the mean time. While I would still be interested in the answer for future reference, the situation at hands is no longer present. AddWittyNameHere (talk) 03:46, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
Hi. If the sandbox contains a blatant attack article, you can CSD it in the same way as a main article page. You can use any of the templates listed at WP:CSD#G10, but unless you are using WP:Twinkle you will have to paste the warning manually on the creator's talk page. That said, attack pages get deleted very quickly because they show a red alert on admins' control panels. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:03, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
While sandboxes are usually given a lot more leeway than user pages (which in turn are given a lot more leeway than mainspace articles), WP:CSD#G10 doesn't differentiate between namespace or page type. In essence, if it's a blatant attack page, it doesn't belong, and I'm pretty sure that overcomes any assumption of good faith. Again, the important part is that it's blatant... something that's arguable may better be discussed, or otherwise reported elsewhere. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 13:52, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

This biographical article needs additional citations for verification.

Resolved: Maintenance box removed. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 17:16, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Gerald Barry (composer) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I don't think this request applies any longer. The article has been carefully referenced.--Julius Eugen (talk) 16:21, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Removed. Looks good to me. In the future, you can generally remove such templates yourself if you actually have fixed the issue. I know sometimes this can lead to a dispute, but this is pretty clearly fixed. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 16:28, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Thanks a lot.--Julius Eugen (talk) 16:37, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

This article needs additional citations for verification.

Alexander Bain (inventor) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Have added the missing reference, but don't know how to delete the template.--Julius Eugen (talk) 20:42, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

It's the {{refimprove}} template right at the top of the article. But what you have done so far will probably not be deemed sufficient to remove it. SpinningSpark 21:11, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
I see your point. I thought that the template only referred to that longer quotation that was not referenced. --Julius Eugen (talk) 22:12, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
You can only know that by asking the editor who put it there. Whatever the original motive, my point is that there are many editors who like to see little blue numbers on everything regardless of whether policy actually requires it. If one of those sort is watching the page they are liable to challenge uncited information, at which point policy requires an inline cite just because it has been challenged. SpinningSpark 00:08, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
Quite. The person who wrote the article obviously listed the sources reliably in "Further Reading", but forgot to put in his share of little blue numbers. Thanks to Google Books you stand a chance to identify a few, but it's a thankless task for a rainy day.--Julius Eugen (talk) 16:37, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
Glancing over the article I see a lot of information that I believe should be directly referenced, and as the article's been tagged for over six months I would understand if an invested editor took action regarding the material that isn't clearly referenced. For better or worse I'm not inclined to do so myself, though if it helps I'd likely move it to the Talk page rather than deleting it entirely. Just my two cents. DonIago (talk) 16:44, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
You're right. Deleting wouldn't be fair as there is a lot of useful information here. I'll see what I can do with Google Books. If he stuck to the sources cited, it shouldn't be an impossible task.--Julius Eugen (talk) 21:27, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm new and being blocked ?

Answered: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:22, 25 November 2013 (UTC)


I've tried to post this poem I have in my possession regarding the meaning of Rosebud in the Citizen Kane movie. It keeps getting removed, why ? it's as totally relevant as other opinions posted on the meaning of Rosebud .

"Rosebud" is a poem I found in my Mothers Bible, handwritten in her cursive on parchment paper. It is not signed though, Author unknown ?

[copyright material redacted] Yeshua777 (talk) 17:32, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Content for Wikipedia articles must have been published by reliable sources and it must represent the opinions and analysis of the the mainstream academics. A poem you found doesnt meet either criteria. (and it likely also violates WP:COPYRIGHT.) -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:35, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
and yes, repeatedly inserting inappropriate content into articles is being disruptive and can lead to you being blocked. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:37, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
There is nothing to suggest that the poem has anything to do with Citizen Kane. It is off-topic. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:39, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Just for the record, you're not being blocked just yet, but because other editors have disagreed with your edits, you need to stop repeatedly reverting them on Citizen Kane right now. You can discuss them on Talk:Citizen Kane, but if your edits aren't cited to reliable sources ie: given prominent mention in places such as books published by well known firms or major national broadsheet newspapers, then it's unlikely that they'll be accepted. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 17:44, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Just some quick googling shows it likely has nothing to do with Citizen Kane. From what I can gather, the poem is attributed to a missionary, though I don't know who exactly, or when it was written. It's all over the Christian blogosphere, though. The fact that Google Books doesn't seem to show it in any works older than a few years old is at least suggestive that it's of fairly recent authorship, and thus likely subject to copyright, at least in English. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 18:12, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

What can be done about editors who write patent nonsense?

Answered: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:23, 25 November 2013 (UTC)


I've been trying to work with an editor for some months who appears to have some difficulty with English. I've discussed this with him at length[3], but have met with limited success; when asked about his poor English, he explained that he was American and denied being ESL. Most recently, he insisted that eccentricity always implies genius[4], was reverted[5], and then reverted in turn[6]. He incorrectly cited Eccentricity (behavior) to support his point.[7]

As I hope the links show, his use of English is often extremely idiosyncratic and difficult to understand, and I have not been able to convince him that there's a problem with his editing. Dealing with him is extremely tiring and unproductive, and correcting his edits frequently involves a great deal of effort and failure to communicate with him. I'm not sure how to proceed. Vashti (talk) 20:51, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

That's certainly the most unique form of American English I've ever seen in all my years of being an American and being a linguist. Anyway, here's my issue with your wording in the L article: is there a source for calling the character a genius? I know that's not what Batman's objecting to, but I think if you can actually quote one of the LNs as using your preferred construction, it kind of sidesteps any complaint Batman could voice (and I see you may be able to do that). As to dealing with Batman... I don't think he's completely out of his mind here. His argument, properly articulated, is that "eccentric genius" sounds redundant to him, and is therefore editorially poor. While he's wrong, that doesn't make him disruptive. Believe me... as frustrating as your interactions with him may seem, this is not considered a serious WP:COMPETENCE situation. And honestly, for me, worst case, I don't mind budging on an issue of verbiage even though the motivation behind it is wrong. Is it going to make the article somehow bad or incorrect to not describe L as a genius exactly there? —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 00:29, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Well, yes. He is a genius. He is recognised as one in-universe and out. It is repeatedly sourced. It is one of the most defining features of his character, as the battle between supergeniuses is one of the most defining aspects of the Death Note plot. It would seriously compromise his character summary not to mention it; it's like not describing James Kirk as a starship captain. I've been through this before with Batman and cited the manga writer's description of him, and it made no difference to him at all, just as my citing the Google dictionary definition of eccentricity did not budge him. He just says "let's agree to disagree", and meanwhile, his edits stand because I try to discuss and he does not.
What's disruptive is that this happens with him *over and over*. He'll make some edit based on a misunderstanding or misuse of language, and it becomes impossible to talk to him because of his unique English. I was hoping I could get him mentored or something, because I really am at breaking point. Vashti (talk) 01:41, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Further edits since last night.[8] I provided evidence for the standard definition of eccentric, asked Batman to back up his definition, and he would not or could not do so, so I reverted the L article.[9] I feel like I beat him down, and he clearly thinks the same, but at the same time I'm disquieted by the idea that Wikipedia's core policies (e.g. WP:V) are to be ignored so that people's feelings don't get hurt. I actually had already let an edit of Batman's pass earlier in the week, which I thought made the page less descriptive, since L's eccentricity was already extensively discussed.[10] Aren't we meant to be producing correct, verifiable English at the very least? Vashti (talk) 21:58, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Well, if your preferred wording was the status quo, you should invoke the WP:BRD standard, which tends to really frustrate the efforts of determinedly CLUE-deficient editors. As to discussing things, well, going through the DR process is of course the right step once it's clear it's not working, and you've definitely done that by coming here. And you don't have to continue discussing ad nauseam when it's clear further discussion will just go in circles or is being hampered by a failure to comprehend basic logic (e.g., insisting that because eccentricity can be associated with genius that it implies genius); he doesn't get consensus by being the last man standing. No consensus means no change. I'm glossing over a few important aspects of the process here, but I think you've been around long enough to understand my point.
To be fair though, and forgive me for being blunt, but you're being overly picky if you feel a single word makes or breaks the article. All I'm suggesting is that with editors like these, sometimes giving a little is not a big deal. Your point about letting WP:V slip in favor of collegiality is valid, but it misses the important point that maintaining a collegial environment is at the heart of one of Wikipedia's Five Pillars. The problem is your argument that WP:V suffers because of this edit is simply incorrect: not including content that happens to be verifiable doesn't violate WP:V (it can violate WP:NPOV, but that's not happening here either).
All that said, I was actually planning on stepping in and reverting Batman myself when I sat down to write this response since I do agree with you on the facts of this case. My arguments, however, are more directed at trying to point you to ways in which you could better personally handle such disputes in the future. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 22:22, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
It's not the absence of content that I thought was violating WP:V, but Batman's insistence that his unverifiable gut instinct trumped the standard, verifiable meaning of the word "eccentric". I understand what you're saying, I appreciate your input, and I do try to work with other editors; I know that though the pages I tend to focus on are quiet, I do not own them. I have, in the past, agreed with Batman over contentious edits once he managed to explain himself, as here. However, what worries me is the precedent it sets for future editing if arguments like "what Wikipedia should contain is what I feel is correct" are allowed to stand. Vashti (talk) 00:00, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
Well, hang in there. Like I suggested, in the future you should probably make more use of WP:BRD to hold the status quo in place pending discussion. That will hold most "This is wrong because I say so" arguments at bay indefinitely. And should a consensus actually spring up from that, you should consider the possibility that you're incorrect (and if it's as I describe, that should almost never happen). —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 06:59, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Question regarding BLP and Personal Attacks

Answered: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:24, 25 November 2013 (UTC)


After an unrelated question I had at Commons, I began wondering whether userspace infoboxes violated personal attack policies. For example, this search reveals a number of impassioned attacks on living U.S. presidents. "This user thinks John Q. Nobody is a Neo-Fascist." I don't want to go wiping people's userspaces without asking for a second opinion--especially because userspaces are given a little more latitude than articles (see WP:BLPTALK). Thanks. -- Veggies (talk) 07:36, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Looks as if these userboxen could be an infringement of the WP:POLEMIC guideline or even the Wikipedia:Libel policy. I'm not sure it's within our remit here at EAR to deal with this. It's probably something more for a discussion by admins. Best to bring it up at WP:AN (not to be confused with WP:ANI). But i'll let others comment here first. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:02, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
I think the "Neo-Fascist" and belonging "to the trash bin of history" ones are pretty silly, but describing someone as a "traitorous piece of scum" is fairly offensive. It's ... god ... I'm reasonably certain this isn't libel if only because it's not asserted as truth, but as the opinion of the editor. I also think this goes outside WP:BLP, again, because it's a clear statement of opinion and is not likely to be confused as an assertion of fact. Whether it's polemic... I'm not quite sure; I'm really on the fence. Nor am I sure whether the rule is that any polemical material is subject to removal, or if it is subject to removal only if it rises to the level of being excessive material unrelated to encyclopedia building. From a pure policy perspective, I think that to interpret WP:POLEMIC such as to require the removal of certain political statements would be extremely difficult to apply in a fair manner; factually messy tests requiring an "I know it when I see it" type determination are notoriously difficult to justify. Anyhow, I think this is an issue for discussion at WP:AN as Kudpung suggests or perhaps WP:VP, if simply because it's an issue with broad implications for userpages. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 13:48, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
Actually, I could be wrong on the defamation count. It's kind of hard to put a finger on what exactly defamation is, at least within the United States. While my understanding was that at least on Wikipedia we tended to care about the law where Wikipedia's servers were located, or where WMF was headquartered (iirc this was classically Florida and California, respectively), it also seems that in some situations it's possible that the controlling law would be that of the state where the injury occurred rather than where the publication occurred. But then again, there are First Amendment limitations that would probably protect WMF since we're talking about public figures. See New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, 376 U.S. 254 (1964). I am probably wrong above where I talk about it being clearly the user's opinion rather than a statement of fact. Milkovich v. Lorain Journal Co., 497 U.S. 1 (1990). There is a requirement that the statement be provably false, and that is probably what extends to protecting hyperbole. See Id. Based in part on that analysis and in part on gut feeling, I really think we don't reach libel from a legal perspective. However, I think you could argue that, on a precautionary principle, we should probably avoid statements like these. But from a policy perspective, I'm concerned as to where exactly we draw the line. WP:NOTMYSPACE and WP:SOAP weigh pretty heavily on one end of the scale, but the long-standing leniency the community has granted userboxes weighs pretty heavily on the other end. And while Wikipedia is not a forum for unregulated free speech, it makes for extremely poor community relations to not allow some significant form of self-expression within the provided user space, and that necessarily has to extend to making comments on politicians. And as I said before, where do we draw the line? Stepping on what can be claimed as a strong political statement can cause a lot of bad blood and drive away people who would otherwise be great members of the community. Yeah, this needs to be kicked up higher and hashed out I think, because I really think there are rather sweeping policy implications that would stem from this. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 16:48, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
Under English Common Law (the root of most American judicial doctrine) the essence of libel was knowing publication of an untrue statement defaming someone; truth was an absolute defense. In the 1920s there was a case in California where Curtis Publishing exposed someone's sordid past, and claimed truth as a defense. My vague recollection is that this is what led to the concept of "private facts", such as are true, but constitute an injury (tort) if published. Complicating this is vastly different treatment of strictly private individuals, and "public figures". All in all, I say let the WMF lawyers worry about this kind of stuff. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:49, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
Oh, I agree on that point, that if our concern is applying WP:BLP to possibly defamatory content, we may wish to have the Foundation chime in. As to WP:POLEMIC, I ran this search of the noticeboard archives to see if there have been similar situations in the past. After reviewing several of these, it seems like you would probably succeed in challenging the userboxes at polemical. Similar cases include a userbox supporting armed action by Hezbollah, one arguing that abortion ends lives, one making a joke in poor taste that domestic violence can be appropriate in some circumstances, and one supporting Campfire USA over the BSA. I'm sure there's one about politicians if you looked through the hits. So... that should give you an idea of what the community understands unacceptable userboxes to be. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 23:40, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
Thanks everyone for chiming in. After reading the comments about law from people who know more about these things than I do, I concur that this should be taken up by the Foundation's legal department, especially as it could be a cross-Wiki issue if other WikiMedia sites use userboxen and have the same problems with them. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:49, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Is major change justified?

Answered: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:24, 25 November 2013 (UTC)


I am considering a major change to Sierra Madre Mountains (California) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and do not want to get into a hassle about it. The change would be to replace all references to "Sierra Madre Mountains" with just "Sierra Madre." This is justified by the fact that the definition of "Sierra" is "noun: 1(especially in Spanish-speaking countries or the western US) a long jagged mountain chain" (see Referring to them as the Sierra Madre Mountains is equivalent to talking about a "PIN Number" or an "ATM Machine."

Alweiss (talk) 16:45, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

While what you say makes logical sense, it would appear that the official name of this range, as redundant as it may be, is "Sierra Madre Mountains" per the U.S. Geographic Names Information Center listing. The fact that "Mountains" is part of the name, not just a descriptive word, can be seen by contrasting the listing for the Sierra Madre range of Wyoming which gives the name as just "Sierra Madre". To change it merely because it is linguistically redundant would be prohibited original research, I'm afraid. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:08, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Sam Walton's biography

Resolved: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:25, 25 November 2013 (UTC)



Sam Walton's summary appears to be clearly wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 22:53, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Vandalism. Now fixed. SpinningSpark 01:26, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Title change

Answered: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:26, 25 November 2013 (UTC)


Hello my page "Jack dean" English footballer born 28 November title needs editing to "Jack Dean (English footballer) so it is not to be confused with another article. Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davidfelix34 (talkcontribs) 12:32, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

You rename pages by moving them to a new title. Click on the "Move" tab at the top of the page you want to move. The Wikimedia software does not normally permit new editors to do this, but I have just confirmed your account so it should work ok. Let me know if you have any problems. SpinningSpark 13:05, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Bentham Science Publishers edited text

Answered: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:26, 25 November 2013 (UTC)


Dear Joel,

Thank you for working on the content related to Bentham Science Publishers on wikipedia.

I wrote twice to make some changes to the original text, once on 31 Oct 2013 which was reverted and you gave me the reasons for doing so. I understood your point of view, complied with your reasons and made a revised version which I submitted on 5 Nov 2013. I dropped the promotional tone and did not touch the controversies' section. However, the second one was reverted too.

I would like to ask for your guidance as to how I should go about it, for I want to give it a shot again. I am not trying to shy away from the controversies related to the publisher, but only want to add something on their product line. I mean there is more to Bentham than just the controversies.

Kindly guide me.

Thanks! HiraAzam (talk) 05:31, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Wrong venue for your message. Please repost it either on the article's talk page or Joel's talk page. Thanks. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:19, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Individual art events articles

Answered: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:27, 25 November 2013 (UTC)


Hi. I noticed that while we have an article on the Venice Biennale, articles on the individual Biennale editions are all missing. I noticed the same apparently holds for other convention events like ComicCon. An event like a Biennale edition is usually massively notable and very well capable of meeting WP:NEVENT, so I was wondering: do the articles not exist because of some other notability guideline I am unaware of, or simply because nobody ever bothered writing the individual articles? Thanks. (Note: I also asked this on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts). --cyclopiaspeak! 11:06, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

There is no objection in principle, the Cannes Film Festival for instance has articles for individual years. It depends on what sources you can bring to bear. I know nothing about the Venice Biennale but I doubt that it is written about anywhere near as heavily as Cannes. Do individual years continue to be discussed in reliable sources years after the event is over? If you can find suitable sources, then by all means go ahead and write articles. SpinningSpark 23:09, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Studley, Inc. and related subjects


I would like to request the removal of Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies), Wikipedia:Notability_(people) and Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest templates from the following pages: Studley, Inc., Michael D. Colacino and Mitchell S. Steir. I am unable to do this myself because of a COI and have held multiple discussion on each article's Talk page before posting here.

A third party editor has re-written articles for the Steir & Colacino but did not remove the templates. I've reached out to this author about removing the templates but have not received a response in several days. I believe the COI template is unnecessary because the article was re-written by a third party, independent editor. As for notability, both subjects as far as I can tell meet Wikipedia's Wikipedia:Notability_(people) guidelines as they both have been covered significantly by reliable, secondary sources independent of the subject and have made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in their specific field.

For Studley, Inc. I would like to request the Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies) template be removed. The page was subject to an AfD discussion which was quickly withdrawn because there are in fact an overwhelming amount of secondary sources about the subject, the same sources the template questions[11]. However, the template still remains. In addition to having the template removed, I would be delighted if somebody would like to add content to this article. I've supplied multiple links and what I feel should be added on Talk:Studley,_Inc. if anybody would oblige me. Thank you.RyLaughlin (talk) 22:22, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

If you ae sure that the issues have been addressed you can remove the templates yourself; otherwise start discussions on the articles' talk pages. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:29, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
The OP cannot remove templates themself without risking a COI accusation. SpinningSpark 01:57, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Rewriting computer science articles for novice users

The computer science articles are too abstract and problematic for novice users. They should be given an overhaul. I would like to contribute from my end, albeit I am not much of an expert. I would like to know what the editors think. Thanks Nmondal (talk) 17:41, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

I think it's a really laudable goal. You might want to propose this at WikiProject Computer Science. But really, it's a problem with many articles on specialized topics, so maybe discussing it at the Village Pump would be more appropriate. I seem to recall there's a tenet on Wikipedia that articles should ideally be written to cater to readers of all different levels of interest and knowledge, though I don't recall the citation to the page offhand. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 18:33, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
Did you mean you want to start improving articles? If so, please go ahead, you don't need anyone's permission and this would be very good work. Most technical articles could do with a good copy editor. I don't know if Wikipedia:Make technical articles understandable is the guideline Mendaliv was thinking of, but it's worth a read. It is particularly important, as the guideline says, that the lede should be understandable to a general reader, even if they know nothing of the subject before starting to read. SpinningSpark 22:03, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
That's the one I was thinking of. Thanks! My figure on Nmondal's suggestion though is that there should be a concerted effort or movement towards including more lay-friendly summaries in articles. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 00:14, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

HiLo48 and 2014 Olympics

Moved--Ymblanter (talk) 09:54, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

2014 Winter Olympics (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The editor came to the talk page of the article and stated he does not like a section and wants to remove it. When I objected he resorted to personal attacks (including my intentions I have in their view) which are basically escalating. If I get their point, they believe they can remain incivil as long as they discuss the content, since content is more important. On the other hand, I am not really prepared to discussions like that. I remember I had issues with incivility of this editor in the past acting in my capacity as administrator (not as a regular editor), but I do not remember any details. It would be great if someone would assist bringing the discussion back in the civil manner.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:07, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Apparently no interest here, moved the civility part to ANI.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:53, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Items included but not relevant

North Wilkesboro (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

In researching the North Wilkesboro entry I noticed that there are entries to "Wilkes County School System" and "Wilkes Community College" within the article.

Should these entries be removed? 1 - The Wilkes County School System is not specific to North Wilkesboro (actually not even mentioned) and the reference to the high schools are not within the city limits - nor even close. 2 - Wilkes Community College is not in the city limits and there is no direct reference to North Wilkesboro nor benefit to the article that I can see.

What would be the appropriate steps to remove these entries (if they should be) or what would the correct course of action be?

Nicolaneski (talk) 06:34, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I note that OP has already removed the Wilkes Community College section. A link to an article on the Wilkes County School System, or at least of schools that serve North Wilkesboro, would probably be appropriate. Extensive discussion of the school system in a settlement or county is pretty standard in these sorts of articles I've noticed, though I'm a bit concerned about the light that the school system is painted in. As to whether either are "not relevant" to discussion of North Wilkesboro, I would somewhat beg to differ; if the community college that serves the town is Wilkes Community College, it's probably good to mention it in a section on Education, but absolutely not necessary to go into detail about the quality of education the school provides, since that would belong in an article about the school. Anyway, the main issue isn't so much that the schools are mentioned and not relevant, but that they're presented as "features" of the town and painted in a pretty positive light. That merits correction. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 07:10, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Ellis Short

Resolved: Requested edits were made by another editor. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 07:12, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi. I submitted additional content to be added to the Ellis Short article on the Talk Page a while ago, but haven't received a response from any editors. Could someone please review my suggested additions? I've declared my COI on the article Talk Page and my userpage. Thanks Vivj2012 (talk) 10:07, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

You should use the edit request system. Placing the edit request template on the page will attract someone interested in making such edits. SpinningSpark 09:31, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Original Research Assistance

Discussion moved: See WP:NORN#Original Research Assistance, where this issue is being addressed. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 20:04, 4 December 2013 (UTC)


I am looking for help/guidance from experienced scientific editors who can help resolve/guide me on the "No Original Research" requirement -v- the related policy of Neutral point of view. For ex, the NPOV seems to imply some "latitude"

My only question for the present is: Is this better posted here or on the No_original_research/Noticeboard? Thank you for your help! (talk) 13:52, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

WP:NORN is probably the better choice if you have an issue with something being called original research. But it seems like you've already started a thread there. (Seems this issue is related to Energetically modified cement) —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 16:09, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you and Yes it is. I am struggling with "need" to provide a "scientific" explanation to the "nth" degree so as to prevent any further defamatory comments arising. This is why I ask for guidance from someone who has expertise in writing scientific articles and is well grounded in observational science heuristics. If you can help, I would surely appreciate it. Kind regards (talk) 18:05, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

The "need" is for you to provide reliably published sources that have made the claims and analysis. We only present what has already been published, in the context from which it was originally published. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:39, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Another person named Mark Fritz has hacked this page and put his photo on the initial Google search biography.

Resolved: Google appears to have fixed the issue on their end after notification that the image they had paired with the entry was the wrong one. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 20:05, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

My name is Mark Fritz, a Pulitzer Prize-winning war correspondent and author of the award-winning book "Lost on Earth," as well as a the soon-to-be-released novel "Permanent Deadline."

A person named Mark Fritz who writes self-help books has continually and intentionally attempted to steal my identity. Four weeks ago, my photo was deleted from both my Wikipedia page as well as the Google Search biography that cites Wikipedia as a source. This has caused grave damage to my reputation as a journalist. The insertion of the identity thief's photo on the Wiki-sourced Google search biography must be remedied immediately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Real Mark Fritz (talkcontribs) 10:58, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Symbol move vote.svg Are you by any chance referring to a photo or text shown to the right of a Google search? Google's Knowledge Graph uses a wide variety of sources. There may be a text paragraph ending with "Wikipedia" to indicate that particular text was copied from Wikipedia. An image and other text before or after the Wikipedia excerpt may be from sources completely unrelated to Wikipedia. We have no control over how Google presents our information. --Mdann52talk to me! 11:06, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
@The Real Mark Fritz: The picture was deleted as Wikipedia does not display external images - see Wikipedia:Uploading for help uploading a suitably licenced image. --Mdann52talk to me! 11:09, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
If we are talking about this image The Real Mark Fritz inserted it himself, followed by an image of Walter Mondale, both then deleted by himself. As far as I can see, no other image has ever been in the article. SpinningSpark 11:25, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
I think we're being complained to about something happening off-wiki, specifically in how Google scrapes a Wikipedia biography and tries to insert an image from image search. Google "mark fritz" and you'll see what I mean. While that isn't under our control, I think something we can do here is to ask if TRMF can submit a photo of himself under a free license, and hopefully something more professional than fritz_paper-330-exp.jpg. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 15:39, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
On the other hand a more cynical person might suspect that this is an attempt to stir up controversy to promote a new book. SpinningSpark 18:42, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
I think that's a fair conclusion from the substance of the recent edits to Mark Fritz, though I think that doesn't really invalidate the concern about the wrong picture getting scraped by Google. Anyway, I submitted feedback to Google noting the image was erroneous. Who knows, maybe they'll act on it. From the look of it, the other Mark Fritz seems to have a good SEO firm working for him; his website tops our own article, which is no small feat. That would probably explain why Google prefers the other image. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 21:24, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I am investigated and I am at a loss

Answered: SPI case closed without action. Does not appear that any more advice is needed in this case. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 20:07, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

I am investigated and am at a loss I have one account.

Never had any other What do I do I have a sign put on my Wikipedia that is wrong!

(Tnoova (talk) 01:38, 29 November 2013 (UTC))

It looks like they are going to decline to investigate the case at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Jegrant so it will be probably be closed without any action. The "sign" on your page is merely to notify you of the investigation and it's perfectly ok to delete it if you want to. By the way, it is not allowed to reveal the real life identities of Wikipedia editors as you did on the investigation page, unless they have already done so themselves on-wiki. This is still the case even when the editor has a username close to their real life name. SpinningSpark 09:23, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Copyright check on the list article I just started at List of Forbes Global 2000 companies

Answered: Article deleted at AfD. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 20:09, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm 99.44% convinced that the article I just created at List of Forbes Global 2000 companies is acceptable within the U.S., because the U.S. does not have database copyright or "sweat of the brow" standards. The rank of each company on the list and its financial figures are data we freely cite in articles, and we have plenty of sports rankings, etc. that seem similar. Still, because of the size and amount of data, I'd like to hear some other opinions just to be positive. Wnt (talk) 05:59, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

This is probably a corner case right on the edge. It boils down to whether the list is objectively listing the largest companies or is Forbes opinion of who are the largest companies. For instance Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Albums of All Time is purely subjective and the list should not be reproduced in its entirety. Reproducing the whole list is completely different from stating that an individual company (or album) is on the list which is merely a statement of fact. SpinningSpark 10:12, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
To be clear, it's within my technical capability to take the present list, strip off the numbers saying where the companies rank on it, and re-sort them according to country and name. Is that (a) necessary to comply with copyright and (b) sufficient to comply with copyright? Wnt (talk) 18:14, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
I don't think resorting makes any difference. The key question is would someone else constructing the list from scratch come up with exactly the same list? If they might not do then arguably there is some originality in the list and Forbes would be entitled to copyright. SpinningSpark 18:41, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
Are you sure about that? The purpose of the list is to measure the size of world's largest companies. If one person makes a list of the atomic weights of the isotopes, his version might be different, by various small choices, from another person's list of the atomic weights of the isotopes, yet thanks to a lack of database copyright we feel free to have our own list of nuclides. Now it is true that that relies on a few sources; perhaps if this article is adjusted to be a general list of the world's largest companies, open to data from any source, that would improve the situation? But one way or another the imprint of specific sources is bound to remain in any large list of data. Wnt (talk) 19:31, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
We already have List of largest companies by revenue to which World's largest companies redirects. SpinningSpark 02:00, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
It's still all very mysterious to me. Suppose I edit that article. Can I add one, ten, a hundred, a thousand of the revenue figures from the Forbes article to expand that list? Or on a related theme, suppose I wrote up a bot and had it update company infoboxes from the Forbes info, citing the fact in each infobox. (I'm not saying I plan to do that, it's some effort to get that up and running) Could I do that for some, many, all of the items on the list? Wnt (talk) 08:42, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
The revenue figures themselves are going to be mere facts not subject to copyright under Feist, much like a list of telephone numbers or addresses. The problem with a huge list of the Forbes rankings is that the ranking itself, as an arrangement, is probably creative enough to be copyrightable. It'd be as though the telephone company in Feist had come up with some new and creative arrangement of the phone numbers, and that was copied. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 19:49, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

I've just noticed that we have an essay, Wikipedia:Copyright in lists, on this subject. It came up in the AFD discussion of List of Dewey Decimal classes. SpinningSpark 10:52, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Ah, of course, Dewey is probably the perfect analogous case for this. Anyway, an important point raised in the essay is that we should exercise care even with lists comprising facts not subject to copyright insofar as we may run afoul of certain state laws. I'm not sure if that's a concern with any material from the Forbes list, but it's a good point. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 13:04, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

User:Wkoppel - unsound editing / competence issue

User:Wkoppel is relatively new as a registered editor, but edited fairly extensively under the IP address Wkoppel’s editing interests focus on college sports – football and basketball in the main – with a particular emphasis on the University of Michigan, Ohio State, and the Big 10.

His editing practices have been problematic from the get-go, including substantial wholesale changes without any edit summaries to guide other editors, e.g. here; unexplained and repeated removal of references that do not appear elsewhere in the article, here as an IP and here as WKoppel; repeated alteration of content to create internal inconsistencies in an article, here and here as an IP, and here as WKoppel, and changing articles in a way that is either flat wrong here or inconsistent with the cited sources, here and here.

I have, in a variety of ways, undertaken to draw this editor’s attention to these problems – template warnings, narratives with a more personal and (I would hope) approachable tone, and finally by obtaining a short block of the IP for repeated removal of content. See User_talk: and User talk:Wkoppel. (I am also not the only editor to try to address these issues – see the IP talk page.) He has never once responded to any comment, on his Talk page or on mine. As the problems continued, I raised them a few weeks ago at ANI (archived here but strangely not in the TOC). That posting didn't gain any traction - it's pretty low-grade stuff finally - but the editor backed off of editing and the problems seemed to abate a bit. He has recently returned to higher-volume editing, with a corresponding increase in problem edits like wikilinking a name to a dab page, twice in fact (see addition of Nazareth College here); and making material substantive changes to an article based on sources apparently known only to him, here.

Very few of his edits even approach "vandalism" (repeatedly removing citations the main exception, which he seems to have stopped). While he has reinserted a few edits following reversion, he does not edit war; and many of his edits seem fine (though, without proper sourcing, who can tell). I did succeed in persuading him to begin including edit summaries. How helpful or enlightening they are is an open issue, but at least he does it. I don't really question his good faith, but rather his ability to distinguish good from bad edits, to adhere to policies re sourcing, and his willingness to work with other editors.

In short, he makes bad edits; he continues to make them after the problems have been noted to him; he completely refuses to engage in discussion about them; and it’s tiring following him around to clean up. I could use a bit of help. Perhaps someone here will be more successful than me in getting him to engage. Thanks. JohnInDC (talk) 14:05, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I notice that you have previously brought this editor to ANI [12] but did not get a response. The first thing to say is that ANB would have been more appropriate; ANI is for things that need a more or less instant response from administrators. It is very fast moving and the people who service it are not geared up for detailed research or slow mentoring of difficult editors. It might have helped if you had made clear what action you were asking from admins. It might have been read as merely asking for more eyes on the problem, as is your post here. Having said that, I don't really think this is an admin issue, at least not yet. You have said yourself that the editor is improving; they are now using edit summaries routinely. If they continue to improve they could end up becoming an excellent editor. There is no compunction on you to "follow him around to clean up" if you find it tiring. You can simply leave it to others. SpinningSpark 21:05, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
Oh, I realized that ANI was the wrong place after my post there garnered no attention. I guess I thought that, on the heels of his earlier block, it made sense, but I misjudged. This is the better place. As for this most recent posting of mine, yes, he's adding edit summaries but that's about the scope of the improvement. You still have to actually look at his edits, pretty much every one of them, to see if they are complete - or indeed, correct at all. And because he never provides sources, unless another editor has pre-existing knowledge about what the truth is, there's no way to tell whether his edits are right or wrong. I might share your sanguinity about his future prospects if he displayed the least inclination to discuss these problems, to engage in a dialogue of some kind with an eye to developing his skills as an editor, but in several hundred edits as IP and registered user he has never once edited a Talk page. And, finally, no, I don't have to be the one to clean up after him; but because his failures fall short of outright mischief, they generally escape notice, and leaving the chore to others would simply allow more of his shaky edits to stand longer. Now - if you're politely trying to suggest that I'm making too much out of this, that his edits aren't that bad; that makes for a different discussion! JohnInDC (talk) 21:37, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
Personally I'm not very interested in the subject matter this guy edits or in researching their edits to confirm what you say is correct. But if you are sure that the editor has a long history making dubious edits and failure to communicate (that last part, at least, is patently obvious from their talk page) then you would be justified in automatically reverting their edits as unsourced without the need for any further checking. Whether anything further needs to be done depends on their reaction to that. SpinningSpark 23:02, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. He's a bit of a mystery - seems to know his stuff well enough but isn't interested in saying where it comes from, and trips up occasionally with straight-up errors. I think he can be redeemed but only if he's interested! JohnInDC (talk) 23:18, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Filtering Inappropriate Pages

I know that some articles in this wiki are inappropriate for certain contributors. I am requesting a search filtering to prevent unregistered (anonymous) users and users registered a minors to view such Wikipedia pages. I'm also requesting a template that warns users about its explicit adult content. -- Ismael755 —Preceding undated comment added 01:03, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment. What you suggest is a perennial proposal for Wikipedia, which has long been rejected. Rather than repeat the reasons here, I would simply refer you to WP:PEREN. You may personally be interested in this page: Help:Options to hide an image. If you wish to discuss possible policy changes, you would be better served making your proposal at the Village Pump policy page. I should also note that it's likely that options to filter certain images may be in the pipeline from the Foundation itself. A community referendum was held back in 2011 following the Board of Directors' request that a filtering feature be implemented. I'm not personally sure what the current status of that project is, or whether it would affect logged-out users. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 07:09, 14 December 2013 (UTC)


Hi, I'm kind of in a quandry on how to proceed at the Advertainment article. A new editor, Zen Joseph, has taken ownership of the article claiming to have invented the term and seems to be using it for self-promotion. Many of the statements are unverifiable or contradict what information a cursory Google search comes up with. I need help balancing the conflict of interest implications while assuming good faith and not being hostile to a new editor. I don't have the time to curate the article or take him under my wing beyond pointing him in the right direction[13], so if anyone has the inclination to comment on the talk page and put some fresh eyes on the article I'd be very grateful. -CompliantDrone (talk) 04:00, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

What a mess. Frankly, I see little need to worry about 'assuming good faith' with Zen Joseph over this - he seems to think that Wikipedia is here to promote his claims, and provide free publicity. It isn't, and he needs to understand this. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:59, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
Made a couple notes at the talk myself, and removed the asserted "creator" of the term given it was coined at least 6 years prior. Assertions that someone coined a term are really tough to source, and using an attestation of a term to claim it as a first use is really original research. I've seen so many cases of this where some fairly basic research invalidates the claim that some particular person coined the term. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 17:21, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Restrictions on Linking at the PXE page

The link in question has been removed without even touching on the WP:ELNEVER/copyright violation concern, and the discussion is needlessly persisting, moving in the direction of judging the merits of the particular product. That's not what this board is for, or Wikipedia more generally for that matter. I would further remind 213 that further WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior—even if the underlying complaint has merit—can and probably will result in blocks. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 22:39, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Preboot Execution Environment (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Hello I have edited the PXE page several times but as soon as I touched anyone of the "protected" projects there I was stigmatized as spammer or disruptive editor then blocked. At the moment that PXE page specifically links to a project (ERPXE) that freely distributes Microsoft copyrighted material and that goes against the WP "Restrictions on Linking". The full description of this issue and prove of concept are at the PXE talk page but no one erases the offending link. When I erased that link in the past I got blocked and the link is restored always by the same guy.

can some independent editor take a look at it and provide some advise. Thanks (talk) 23:53, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

I am an independent editor (and administrator) and I can tell you with confidence that all of your blocks were for good reasons. You're lucky you're still allowed to edit at all. You seem to have chronic issues with edit warring and assuming bad faith, and do not understand either the reliable sources or neutral point of view policies. Much of the advice that has been provided on your talk page is good. You should heed it. If you do understand all of these policies and simply don't like them, then Wikipedia may be the wrong project for you to work on. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:11, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm pretty new to WP and I might have made some mistakes but I'm not a "spammer", nor a "disruptive editor" then let me tell you that most of my blocks were not for good reasons. Thanks (talk) 00:47, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
(edit conflict)See also Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive814#User: and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive816#More abuse more threats; Widefox before, now Drmies. This appears to be a new argument from 213. So new, in fact, that it was only brought up two days ago at Talk:Preboot Execution Environment. But the argument is just on this side of meritorious so far as WP:ELNEVER is concerned. I'm also concerned in the EL text referring to ERPXE as a "solution". Hmm. I'm referring this to WP:ELN. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 00:17, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Actually the argument is always the same ERPXE is not a representative project; now I have researched a bit more and voila they do PXE distributing Microsoft's bootmanagers just changing their name and extension... That goes against WP rules on Links and the ERPXE mention should be erased. There's one guy that stubbornly restores that project and it's the same guy that calls me "disruptive editor" when I have erased that project in the past. The rule is pretty clear in case of doubt do not link; then why the link is not removed?
I also agree with you about ERPXE as a "solution"; I have personally erased the word "solution" several times and the same person put it back and got me blocked as a disruptive editor...
Thanks213.37.84.214 (talk) 00:47, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Fair enough. I've gone in and cleaned up the external links removing the PXE products and the link to an open wiki per WP:ELNO. But take note: you were blocked properly, and your behavior on that article has generally been disruptive, and it's frankly resembling a WP:BATTLEGROUND-type mentality. You really need to cool down if you intend to continue contributing. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 08:05, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Allow me to say that some guys are "promoting" some projects at the PXE page and I think they are not good; that's not being disruptive. i.e. now the PXE text looks 100% biased towards an non-standard project (iPXE) but they promote their stuff on a the PXE page that should mainly talk about the standard PXE itself; I want to edit the page but the page cannot be edited, it is "protected" by the same people that promote iPXE or included ERPXE. It is not my intention to fight I just know a bit of PXE and I do not like what is written in that page because it is not right. I wish you could see these things and make the page editable again. Please keep an eye on the page to avoid things going back to "normal". Thanks (talk) 09:10, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Give it a rest with the conspiracy theories. The page was protected by user:Drmies, an administrator for whom I have a lot of respect, and who has otherwise not edited the page or taken part in the discussion. In other words, Drmies is completley independent of your dispute. The sooner you realise that the problems on the page are being caused by your behaviour and not by some Wikipedia-wide conspiracy against you, the sooner you will be able to make progress. SpinningSpark 11:29, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
If the user:Drmies protected the page for considering that when I've erased ERPXE I was disruptive he probably just made a mistake; now it is proved ERPXE is warez based. I think that page should not be locked. I want to contribute to that page and I'm not disruptive, nor a spammer either. i.e. when you put the terms -pxe server- in google what do you get, well I was always called spammer for mentioning a project that ranks first after the Wikipedia page then probably I was not a spammer I just quoted a known project.
I really do not believe in conspiracy theories here, this is just about personal interests, ego, and thinks like that. Thanks213.37.84.214 (talk) 13:48, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Well, with User:Someguy1221 and User:Spinningspark in the mix, and User:Mendaliv on the job, there's little for me to comment on. I could, of course, try to give some advice, based on nothing more than old age and an impatience with too many editors asking for administrative action in situations where the rights and wrongs are simply not obvious. Yes, Widefox, I'm talking to you too. And IP, you as well, of course: you may think that you're talking in some language that I understand too, but "now it is proved that ERPXE is warez based" is as intelligible to me as some of Derrida's writing in Glas is to you.

    What this article needs is a clearly layed-out section on the talk page where all this is discussed and agreed upon. Simple. It doesn't have to be an RfC, it just needs to be a set of parameters that are agreed on. I think I've said it before but it bears repeating. Once such a set of guidelines is reached (it can even be set up on a subpage of the talk page, with a link on the talk page) we can never have the kinds of disagreement again that we've had before, because the content (or the parameters of the content) are a matter of record. The first one to set this up gets a sticker. Drmies (talk) 15:57, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

@ Drmies & Widefox you guys can find the sources for the legal claim of copyright infringement of ERPXE (as it was said above) righ here: Talk:Preboot_Execution_Environment#Restrictions_on_Linking.

but someone just erased "everything" from the PXE page or there's some big server problem then I'm copying the prove of concept here again

Restrictions on Linking


1) Wikipedia:External Links#Restrictions on linking regarding copyrighted material

2) The ERPXE included external link points to a project/website that offers for download as part constituent of the project non freely distributable Microsoft copyrighted material.

The ERPXE link has to be removed from this PXE page.

Proof of concept;

ERPXE PXE boot of Windows PE .

It contains the file "bt.exe" which is in fact the Microsoft "bootmgr.exe" File Version 6.0.6000.16386.

The file is signed by Microsoft and the signature certificate is still embedded in its code.

This file is Microsoft copyrighted material, it is not produced by ERPXE, it cannot be freely distributed.

ERPXE PXE boot Windows XP recovery console

It contains the file "r" which is in fact the Microsoft "setupldr.exe" File Version 5.2.3790.1830.

This file is Microsoft copyrighted material, it is not produced by ERPXE, it cannot be freely distributed.

ERPXE PXE boot Paragon 2011

It contains the file "bt.exe" which is in fact the Microsoft "bootmgr.exe" File Version 6.0.6000.16386.

The file is signed by Microsoft and the signature certificate is still embedded in its code.

This file is Microsoft copyrighted material, it is not produced by ERPXE, it cannot be freely distributed.

and many more...

If ERPXE wants to be a legal PXE tool it must not include/distribute third party copyrighted material without a proper license.

For all the above reasons the ERPXE External Link must be removed from this PXE page

@ Widefox you have restored ERPXE about 8 times or so without consent (at least not with mine) and also you have involved people for blocking me when I was just removing a non-representative project. I do not understand how you can now just say that "There is merit on removing ERPXE... " (talk) 21:51, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't intend to follow any of the links you have provided. I don't want to follow any link that is going to trigger a download to memy computer. You may well have a case here, but obtaining a Microsoft copyrighted file from a site does not prove that the site does not have permission to distribute the file. SpinningSpark 17:28, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Microsoft Boot managers are not redistributable and they are meant to be used just by the corresponding MS OS license holder.
It is very easy to make a PXE "solution" by renaming Microsoft programs and taking the credit; that's what ERPXE does and that is against WP rules. (talk) 19:38, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
  • What Spinningspark says. IP, you're just talking gibberish as far as I'm concerned. Drmies (talk) 21:55, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Could you please tell me why you think I'm talking gibberish? What's the part of the issue you do not understand? BTW could you please talk to me in a better tone. It feels very uncomfortable when someone tells me I'm talking gibberish. (talk) 22:06, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
  • You're rattling off a bunch of technical details, none of which mean anything to me at all. Did you not read what I wrote above? I explained that none of it makes sense to me, yet you continue saying the same kind of thing: now that is usually considered rude.

    I'm going to stay out of this conversation: the technicalities are going over my head, and if no one wants to make this the kind of discussion that's accessible to non-experts, then I have no business being here. Drmies (talk) 22:27, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

new technique

Being responded to at the help desk. — TransporterMan (TALK) 14:57, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I want to introduce a description of a new technique of literature on video or web or TV or cinema market. bobadue3 — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 13:28, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Infobox template for municipalities (kommune) in Norway

I am looking for assistance in correcting a problem with Template:Infobox_kommune (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) that is causing mismatched title text over maps.

While reading an article about a settlement in Norway, I noticed some problematic title text when I moused over the map showing the county highlighted within Norway in the infobox. It reads "Official logo of [county name]" rather than "[county name] within Norway".

Being somewhat familiar with Templates, I tried to track the problem down to the right layer of Infobox template inheritance, and it seems like the problem is that the county position image is being used in the "image_blank_emblem" field, but I'm rather out of my depth to properly correct it.


Leoger (talk) 20:16, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

You may get a better response at WP:VPT. They have more expertise on templates over there. SpinningSpark 16:45, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Lou Posner article

Louis Joseph Posner (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

An article that previously came up here a couple years ago has returned. It's been getting whitewashed a bit, and there's a whole series of articles related to the subject that have made a comeback. I'd tried asking about this at WP:BLPN but didn't really get any response. I think the subject himself is just at the border of notable (though mostly for his 2008 arrest and subsequent disbarment, and not for his advocacy), though probably not the affiliated topics.

Any input would be nice. I'm probably at or near three reverts on the article today so I'm going to back off. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 19:29, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

I removed mention of his role in a couple of cases that seemed rather garden variety - lots of lawyers serve as "co-counsel" for lots of important clients - and removed one of three photos. At the moment it doesn't seem too over the top, but we'll see if it holds. JohnInDC (talk) 20:25, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
There does seem to be a bit of ongoing POV pushing here - tweaks and edits that, in the aggregate, really do approach a whitewash - and I think additional eyes would indeed be helpful. JohnInDC (talk) 17:52, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
Now an SPI, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Lawline. JohnInDC (talk) 20:33, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. I'd also note that AfDs have been started for Louis Joseph Posner and HLD Club. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 04:50, 28 December 2013 (UTC)


Waterfuse (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Hi there -- I am starting to do some editing tasks on Wiki and I can't figure out how to nominate a page for deletion. The instructions seem to say go to the "afd nomination page" and put this at the top of the list: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/NominationName

I tried this (replacing "NominationName" with the actual name) and it didn't seem to be added to the list. It also didn't have the same format as all the other afds. What am I doing wrong?

Wordy24 (talk) 22:08, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but with all due respect, with only 4 edits to mainspace and having joined Wikipedia only yesterday, I rally do not believe that you have sufficient experience to be undertaking the taskas of policing articles. I recommend that you read WP:NPP; WP:DELETION, WP:PROD, and WP:AfD, get several hundred normal contribs under your belt, and then see if nominating articles for deletion is for you. In the meantime, you may wish to examine the possibility of doing some less complex clean-up tasks such as combating vandalism. See WP:CVU, and eventually applying for the right to use WP:Reviewer and WP:Rollbacker tools when you have made at least 200 mainspace edits, and examine how the use of WP:Twinkle may help you accumulate the necessary experience first. If you would like any help, you are more than welcome to come directly to my talk page. Regards, and all the best for 2014. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 22:30, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
I completed the AfD nomination since it seemed entirely sensible, but I agree with the above in principle. Sideways713 (talk) 22:38, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
(after ec) You need to click the "preloaded debate" link on the template you have inserted in the article. This will open a page for editing where you can explain your rationale for deletion. If you do not do this the deletion nomination will be cancelled. @Kudpung, that is a bit harsh, there may well be a case for deleting this article; it is a commercial product referenced only to a press release. SpinningSpark 22:45, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for info. I do know how to edit and how to weigh the virtues of "information," even if new to Wiki. I will be slow and judicious, but this one was a no-brainer (and also was "given" to me by the page "get started" suggestions for sites that ned assistance). Wordy24 (talk) 23:22, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Please fix Hanja

Hanja, Silla, Baekje and probably others, have some weird transclusion which I am not able to isolate. It displays a broken image link to an AR-15 but titled "Michigan State Police.gif". If this is not the correct place to ask for help, then ignore this and direct me to the correct place out of then dozens of "help" forums avaiable. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 15:34, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

What is an AR-15? I'm not immediately seeing what the problem is. Can you provide a screenshot, or describe exactly where the problem is on the page? SpinningSpark 16:32, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
Template:Infobox Chinese/Korean was vandalised earlier today. Although this was caught and repaired quickly, the servers may not yet have repaired all the damaged articles. If you are still seeing an "AR-15" link in certain articles, you could try purging them and then bypassing your browser cache. I'm sorry for the inconvenience; this is "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit", and sometimes some bad stuff gets through. -- John of Reading (talk) 16:35, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

"Cache me if you can"

I've seen the text "Cache me if you can.gif" on a few pages. It links to List of United States senators, which doesn't exist. It doesn't appear in the page source, so I can't remove it. The text itself is not selectable, so it may be inserted as an image or through some other method that I'm not familiar with.

Here's a couple of examples:
List of cities and towns in Saudi Arabia

Any assistance would be appreciated. Thanks! CNash (talk) 18:41, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm unable to see the text. Can you be more specific?
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 18:58, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
Just purged the pages. It was template vandalism to Template:Largest cities that was reverted about six minutes ago. The job queue clearly hasn't purged the pages depending on that template yet. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 19:03, 31 December 2013 (UTC) (edit: actually it was over 36 hours ago —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 19:05, 31 December 2013 (UTC))
See the community discussion about the recent spate of template vandalism Wikipedia:VPP#Template_Vandalism. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:09, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

A-37 Squadrons

Although I am the contact person for the A-37 'Dragonfly' Association, I am not that versed on using the computer (something about old dogs and new tricks might apply here). Thus when I mentioned your site having the Squadrons which had the A-37 at one time or another, I received the inputs shown below. Since I hate to mess up the site by trying trying to correct anything, I would like you professionals to make them if possible. Thanks.

>>>>><><<<<< Hi Ollie--Just went to the Wikipedia site that is supposed to be a listing of the squadrons that had the A-37. It contains a couple of glaring errors. First, the unit commanded by Col Weber was the4532nd, not the 4352nd. They have the designation wrong. Second, the patch shown for the 427th is not the patch we wore. I can't remember the designation of the unit that was deactivated when the 427th was activated. It may have been the 4537th. The dates shown for that squadron seem about right, but I cant be sure. Thought you might like to know. Stan Elsea


Hi yawl,

There are errors in the Wikipedia posting of A-37 assignments, specifically the 1967-1972 time span for Howard AFB, Canal Zone. When I arrived at Howard on 1 August 1969, our assigned fighter was the T-28. We transferred our T-28s in early 1970.

We had no gap in our fighter assignments, but we had a short period when T-28s and A-37s were both assigned.

I drove out the Howard gate on 22 July 1973, heading for Texas. A-37s were still at Howard. I don't have an opinion as to when the A-37s left, but it sure wasn't in 1972.

Jerry Hatfield (talk) 17:32, 2 January 2014 (UTC)>>><><<<<

Submitted by Oliver A. Maier, San Marcos, Tx. <redacted>

Hi Oliver, thanks for the information, however, Wikipedia relies on written sources like books for its information. I doubt that anyone on this page would be willing to make corrections without verification. Nobody here is a "professional" - we are all just volunteers. I've taken a look at the sources (which are listed at the end of the article) but it is difficult to work out which sources each piece of information came from and most of them are not viewable online. However, this snippet from Darling's book seems to confirm that the 4352nd was a A-37B squadron at England AFB. The same snippet shows the 4532nd (not listed in the article) as an A-37B squadron at Grissom AFB.
On the question of the dates of Howard AFB, there are two units shown, the second of which has a closing date of 1992 - long after 1972 - so your correspondent may have misread the page.
I suggest this entire thread is moved to the article talk page. An editor there might be able to take up the issues. This page is really for giving advice on editing. SpinningSpark 19:42, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

The modern name for original deity 'SURYA'

<> In khajuraho group of monuments there is a chronology table. In this table, you have written "chitragupta" the modern name for original deity "surya". why? what do you want to say?Khajuraho_Group_of_Monuments[[14]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 06:22, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

The article could certainly be clearer, but I think that "Chitragupta" in this context is the modern name of the temple, though it is also the name of a Hindu deity - apparently not an alternate name for Surya. I don't have access to the source, and I can't read Hindi anyway, so I can't confirm this myself. I'll leave a message on the article talk page, and see if someone else can confirm this, and relabel the table. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:47, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

<> Do you think the name of the temple can be different from its presiding deity ? I think one ancient group of people called 'KARAN', sometimes they have been called also 'KARNIK' or 'KARNAT',made all the sun temples. The place of the sun temple in Egypt is called 'KARNAK'. Also the sun temple in Odissa in India is called 'KONARK' sun temple. There is an obvious similarity between 'KARNAK' in Egypt and 'KONARK' in India. I assume that both are associated with the word "KARAN". Moreover all the sun temples in India were made by the rulers of 'KARNAT DYNASTY'. Further more the most ancient Hindu Sculpture and other Sculpture inclusive of 'BUDDHIST SCULPTURE TRIPITIK' have mentioned the word 'KARAN'. The people known as 'KARAN' have been called 'KAYASTHA' in the later period that is after the medeavial period. It has been said in 'PURANAS',of the 'Hindu' Sculpture,that forefather of 'KAYASTHAS' or 'KARANS' is 'CHITRAGUPTA'. In one temple of KHAJURAHO the words,'CHITRAGUPTA TEMPLE' have been encarved and the deity inside has been called 'SURYA'. The origin of the deity CHITRAGUPTA is definitely associated with light according to the Hindu Sculpture, 'GARUR PURAN','SKAND PURAN'. One very popular Hindu Sculpture 'DURGASAPTSATI' writes that CHITRA will reborn from the Sun in 'SAVARNI MANVANTAR',(which is the present time) and he will be 'MANU' that is that first man on the Earth like 'ADAM' in Christianity. In Hindu Sculpture also writes that lord 'BRAHMA' first saw 'CHITRAGUPTA' as more lighted than the Sun who took the shape of 'CHITRAGUPTA' on his request when he failed to see his actual shape because of more dazzling light than the sun. In this way i infer that 'CHITRAGUPTA' is no other than 'SURYA'. I hope the scholars and historians will appreciate my question and will try to help me in this regard. Khajuraho_Group_of_Monuments — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 15:52, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

help and assist for disputing

Request unclear: —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 11:01, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Can you help me talk about what articles i read on imperial.they are very upsetting.after talking with highway patrol in Kansas.i can't keep an email address.not sure how to get answer back but a phone number.<redacted>.i have some things i need help with from will.before i begin.i would like this new year to be a good one.i have slot of good things to add and slot of bad me so we can do everything the way will likes it.i forgive and forget most and would like this dispute settled here before taking other routes.please text me or call me to help understand your guidelines and procedures please.thank you Tim — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 03:52, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

A) No one is going to respond to you via telephone. B) I have no idea what you're talking about. You're going to have to provide a lot more detail. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:58, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
This is quite wonderfully incomprehensible. There doesn't appear to be a settlement called "Imperial" in Kansas, nor any prominent businesses. I don't know what the Kansas Highway Patrol has to do with this, unless it means that OP has been told he may not have an e-mail address by them. The IP geolocates to near Wichita, Kansas... but I don't see anything significant on Google. Anyway, this is apparently a mobile IP, so there's a fair chance some of this (despite the lack of spaces following periods and capitalization) is autocorrected to the point of it being incomprehensible. In all, this is a fun puzzle. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 00:22, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

categories and other data on a redirect page

Resolved: WP:RCAT informed the decision. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 11:37, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

I stumbled across this page Amaryllis Knight which is a redirect page. The page was merged over a year ago following an Article for deletion debate. Whoever did the merge left behind the Persondata template and all the original categories. My question is, should redirect pages just contain the redirect link, or are categories acceptable in certain situations. Periglio (talk) 03:27, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, there are a fairly big set of templates for categorizing redirects actually. (for one reason or another, the cats are added by transcluding templates) See Template:R template index. As to putting other cats on redirects, I don't personally know of a rule going either way. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 03:50, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
The additional categories on the page are "English television actresses" "Motorcycle builders" "Living people" "1976 births" which are valid to this person, although it has been decided she is non-notable. Periglio (talk) 04:00, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Found it. See WP:RCAT. That should tell you what you need to know. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 04:24, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, that does answer the question which was leave the categories in this instance Periglio (talk) 11:21, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Dealing with a disruptive editor in a talk-page discussion

Looking around there are several policies and third-party involvements in regards to edit wars and disruptive editing in an article. However, I would like to know how to properly deal with an editor that is displaying disruptive behavior in a talk-page discussion.


  • repeatedly misrepresents the issues brought up,
  • repeatedly misrepresents the content of sources,
  • repeatedly calls the discussion closed because one other user agrees with him,
  • now actually removed one of my comments from the talk-page.

I have tried to address this issue with him, but he simply deletes anything I say from his talk-page. There appears to be no way to have a civil discussion with this man, so I would like to know how to move address this. GameLegend (talk) 05:33, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

The editor is apparently referring to me, when in fact this editor
  • repeatedly misrepresents the issues brought up,
  • repeatedly ignore the content of secondary sources and prefers a primary source that is clearly unreliable,
  • continually harasses me on my talk page against the talk page's edit notice.
The editor is ignoring consensus at Talk:Zwarte Piet and has taken to insulting me on my talk page (see the history there). ("Please be honest" as though I were lying, when the context of the discussion is clear at the talk page that is being referenced, "you are again ignoring the very specific instruction on what is not an issue" when really, I asked the editor to read the edit notice on my talk page: vis keeping discussion related to an article on that article's talk page).
The only thing that needs to happen is for GameLegend to recognize the secondary sources contradict his opinion. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:51, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
First of all, this board is not itself for resolving disputes so please do not try to continue your fight here. If it were such a place you should have been providing diffs of the alleged disruptive behaviour rather than expect editors to read lengthy discussions on multiple pages and have to pick it out. We can, however, give you advice on the best place to seek dispute resolution if all parties wish it to be resolved. The various processes are described at Wikipedia: Dispute resolution. The best process to use depends on circumstances, please come back here if you still have questions after reading the page. You can seek administrator help with dealing with disruptive behaviour, but unless it is outright vandalism or trolling you should attempt dispute resolution first. In any event, administrators will only deal with bad behaviour, not the content dispute itself. SpinningSpark 12:39, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
I have checked Wikipedia: Dispute resolution and could not find a suitable way for dealing with an editor that removes any attempt at communication. So how does one resolve that? GameLegend (talk) 13:30, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
I see that this has already been at WP:ANEW a few days ago and resulted in both of you being blocked for edit warring. If neither of you are prepared to listen to other editors then probably no form of dispute resolution is going to help you and you will end up being repeatedly blocked. If you can agree to let someone else settle the dispute then WP:3O is the quickest and simplest way to go. To get more editors involved you can instead use the WP:RFC system. There are other options to help you work through a dispute but it really needs both of you to agree to take part. I also notice that a dead link is part of this dispute. You may find the essay Wikipedia: Link rot helpful in how to deal with these. SpinningSpark 14:04, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Vargeao Dome

Vargeão Dome (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

On your page of "Vargeao Dome", you state the age of the impact as 70 mya. The Earth Impact database shows the age as 123 mya. Please resolve????? W. P. Sokeland — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 13:59, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

I think the place to ask this would normally be Talk:Vargeão Dome, but since that looks fairly low-traffic, it might be better to ask at WT:GEOL. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 14:12, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
I've removed the 70 mya figure. It is not in the source cited (that only says "of Cretaceous age") as well as being contradicted by another source. SpinningSpark 14:25, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
That works too. Looks like the 70 mya figure was in the original version of the article, "Cretaceous" later got added, and then the citation got appended to that sentence. So removal is the right call, barring a better reference. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 16:27, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
The Earth Impact Database is already cited in the article and gives the age as 123 +/- 1.4 Mya (which is within the Cretaceous by the way). SpinningSpark 17:11, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
I have described it as Early Cretaceous and hope that this resolves the issue satisfactorily. Richard Keatinge (talk) 10:54, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Kava soft drink manufacturers update

Hello, I have had an issue with removing dated material and updating current manufacturers information on Kava Soft Drinks User Alexbrn has deleted multiple entries without willingness to compromise on entry. I have tried multiple times to discuss with him the issue and stated no interest in escalating to a editting war

Information provided is verfiable, cited, and neutral - further if you look into the talk section of said page there is citations of users wanting more information on current manufacturers.

Finally, Alexbrn seems to have had multiple issues with edit warring in the past as you can see from his talk page

I appreciate your time and consideration in this matter

2600:100E:B10A:B324:A46B:DD7D:79A6:8413  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:100E:B10A:B324:A46B:DD7D:79A6:8413 (talk) 09:30, 9 January 2014 (UTC) 
You have been reverted at least three times by two different editors and an administrator has now protected the page from editing by unregistered users. That should be telling you something: first of all it is telling you that you are edit warring. I have to agree with Alexbrn that the material inserted is promotional in tone. There is certainly no need whatsoever to have a link in our article to a manufacturer's website. If you are associated with this company you should not be editing the article at all. Please see WP:COI and restrict yourself to making suggestions on the article talk page. SpinningSpark 10:03, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
I'll also note there's a pretty clear WP:SYN/WP:MEDRS issue with the IP's preferred version, which asserts that the product contains California poppy, asserts that California poppy is known for promoting relaxation, and then cites to an article via PubMed that studied the effects of California poppy in an animal model (mouse) and (according to the abstract) concluded there appeared to be some anxiolytic effect during experimentation. The ref is right out per MEDRS. Moreover, it doesn't conclude that California poppy promotes relaxation, it concludes that mice appeared to have less anxiety when put in a stressful situation when given California poppy. Finally, nowhere is Kava or this beverage mentioned. The mere fact that the beverage contains California poppy doesn't mean the study can be used to support a claim about it. Hope that makes things a bit clearer, 2600:. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 19:09, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

External links


I added 2 links to the following page yesterday, but they were already removed. The page in question is:

The two links were for the following websites:

They are really pertinent to the topic ( I m a cardiothoracic anesthesiology) How can I post them again without having them deleted?

Thank you in advance — Preceding unsigned comment added by MMMMMPPPPP (talkcontribs) 07:44, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

You need to discuss this either at the talk page of the article (Talk:Cardiothoracic anesthesiology) or with the editor who reverted you (User talk:Yobol). You can find our guideline on external links at WP:EL, please check that your links conform to this. The Heart, Lung and Vessels link seems good to me as a journal of open access articles. It might have helped if you had stated the relevance of the link in the edit summary or even as text in the article. Edit summaries help other editors understand the purpose of an edit and providing one reduces the chances of being reverted. I am not so sure about the ITACTA link. The page seems to be devoid of encyclopaedic information and is in Italian; on the English Wikipedia, English sites are preferred. Even after having it translated I am not getting much more information out of it other than it is something one is able to become a member of. SpinningSpark 10:34, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Dendera zodiac

In Dendera zodiac article there's a problem with image captions - they fail to display. The first image caption appears as normal, but the other 3 don't display. I can't figure out what's wrong. Perhaps someone with experience can help? Thank you. Y-barton (talk) 17:12, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Sorry! It turns out I've already fixed it, but forgot to reload the file (or somehow failed to see that it's fixed?). Maybe my request can now be removed? Y-barton (talk) 17:18, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
@User:Y-barton. No, you didn't fix it, I just did that. You need to use the "thumb" parameter to display the caption (the "frame" parameter also works but this is no longer recommended). The default size for thumbnails is 220px and it is recommended that this is not changed without good reason. I suggest you delete the 150px settting. See Wikipedia:Picture tutorial for more details. SpinningSpark 17:29, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
Thank you, User:Spinningspark, your help was so prompt that I got confused! :) P.S. I didn't actually create these file links, I just stumbled into this article and tried to fix the thing. All the best, Y-barton (talk) 17:37, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Use of Wikipedia for personal/institutional promotion?

Summary: Suspect WP:SPA, WP:COI and WP:AB issue in article that doesn't seem to meet WP:PROF. Is it worth doing anything about this?

A few days ago a friend who works as a teacher in Belgium posted a Dutch-language news story on Facebook that happened to mention Wikipedia: Lieven Boeve, a professor of theology who had just become "Director General of the Flemish Secretary for Catholic Education", had almost simultaneously become the subject of an article on Wikipedia. My curiosity piqued, I checked the article out and found it was the work of almost single-purpose account User:Theology002, who besides creating this article has also edited an article created by User:Theology001, namely that on Didier Pollefeyt. In my opinion the latter article does not at present meet the notability guideline for academics, and basically looks like a faculty page from a university website. I tagged it accordingly. The tag was removed. I asked the editor not to remove the tag without addressing the issue. The tag was again removed after a number of "sources" had been added to the article:

  • a link to a website that the subject "is the moving force behind"
  • a newspaper article that simply mentions the subject's name in a list of new members of the university board (could this meet the guideline on notability of academics, that The person has held a highest-level elected or appointed academic post at a major academic institution or major academic society?)
  • three links to publications by the subject
  • evidence that the subject was scheduled to give a keynote address to the National Catholic Education Convention in Australia

I expressed my discomfort with this on the article's and on the editor's talkpage, but I have heard nothing back. I've read the policy pages on single-purpose accounts, conflict of interest and autobiographies and suspect one or more of them may be relevant here, besides the lack of notability in the article itself. My suspicion that Wikipedia is being used for personal (or institutional) promotion makes me feel surprisingly hostile to this particular page, so I am inclined not to trust my own judgement. Is it worth doing anything further about this? If so, what and how? --Andreas Philopater (talk) 23:55, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

I have restored the template. There is a good chance that the subject meets WP:PROF, his publications get a decent number of citations, but all the same, sources demonstrating notability need to be provided before removing the template. If you think the subject really is not notable, the place to test this is at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion where the issue can be debated and a decision made. SpinningSpark 00:53, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! --Andreas Philopater (talk) 00:06, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

removing an article from Simple wikipedia

Dear Editor Assistant, I am searching for support for the following issue: By mistake I was adding a new article yesterday in the simple English Wikipedia instead of adding it to the regular Wikipedia page. You can find the article under the following link: Can you advice me about the best possibility to remove the page from the simple Wikipedia to the regular Wikipedia page? Is there is any way that I can do this by myself or do I need the assistance of one the technical team. Best regards Hofman20 —Preceding undated comment added 23:58, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

If you go to the page on Simple and add {{Qd-author}}, an admin should come by and delete it for you. GB fan 00:14, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Sandip Goswami

Please write a page about Sandip Goswami who is Indian Bengali poet and author. [2]. Yours faithfully , Sagnik — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sagnik Goswami (talkcontribs) 17:08, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

You want Wikipedia:Requested articles. Or, if you want to have a go at writing it yourself, Wikipedia:Articles for creation. Please read Wikipedia:Notability (people) which lays out the requirement to met before a person can have an article on Wikipedia. SpinningSpark 17:24, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sandip goswami and User talk:Malik Shabazz#Sandip Goswami. Further, while I don't know how individuals' names work in Bengal or Krishnagar, I cannot help but notice the similarity between "Sandip Goswami" and "Sagnik Goswami"... so a reference to WP:AUTOBIO and WP:COI is probably warranted. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 17:55, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Edit warring/3RR report - can someone please explain this outcome and offer some advice?

I reported an editor for violating the 3RR rule, and this was the result:

Would someone please explain to me what the result "stale" means? I have looked in various FAQs and can't find an answer.

The decision suggested that:

Regarding dispute resolution: I attempted discussion on the Talk page but User:Eric Corbett failed to engage. What would be the next best step for me to attempt?

Thank you. (talk) 14:04, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Administrative action, ie blocks, for edit warring are to prevent disruption. If the edit warring has occurred far enough in the past that a block would not serve to prevent ongoing edit warring behaviors, the report is "stale" in that no administrator activity is appropriate at the time the case is reviewed. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:19, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for this explanation. However, the edit war in question happened today. How can that count as "stale"?
I'd appreciate it if someone would guide me as to an appropriate course of action to follow, in the light of the above?
Thanks once more. (talk) 14:29, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
You asked this question directly to the administrator concerned, who has now replied to you at Talk:Manchester Mark 1. It is superfluous to ask here also, we would only be trying to second guess Callanecc's reasoning. SpinningSpark 00:40, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Hillary Clinton - no criticisms

I have long respected Wikipedia. I love the idea of millions of editors.

But I'm shocked that there isn't a 'criticisms' section for Hillary Clinton. She has been a public figure for many decades and has many controversial actions and statements. Condy Rice has a criticisms section, rightfully so. I'll be checking to see if a more impartial portrait of Mrs Clinton is displayed in the coming weeks.

I do worry that Wikipedia is losing its impartiality, I remember looking at Van Jones' glowing description a few years ago. It looked as though Van himself had written it. But, thankfully, it was fixed.

I'll send a copy of this little letter to a few journalist also.

Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Catfishman1976 (talkcontribs) 16:08, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Double posted to the EAR talk page and answered there, q.v.. — TransporterMan (TALK) 16:30, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

'You have a new message (last change)'


Today I have received the highlighted message 'You have a new message (last change)' during my Wikipedia searches. This refers to an article on Roger Francis Crispian Hollis, where a change has been automatically removed.

I have never heard of the Reverend Hollis, nor have I edited the article on him. I imagine that this is some sort of automated glitch, but I would like to to know that the message has been sent to me in error.

Best Wishes John Tayleur (talk) 17:57, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Could you clarify what you mean when you say you "received the...message"? Was it an email of some sort? Your Talk page appears to be unused along with your userpage, so I'm not sure how you could have received said message, unless you recieved it at your IP addresses's Talk page instead. DonIago (talk) 18:15, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
It's most likely that the editor received a notification while logged out. Though, interestingly, checking "what links here" for Crispian Hollis says the most recently changed user talk page was last changed back in 2012. I guess it's possible that John Tayleur edited said user talk to remove the message before posting this, but I think that would make it come up on related changes for the same page, and none do. I figure John Tayleur just received one of the three warnings that was intended for an IP. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 20:33, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

usher artistry, legacy and influence

i'm just wondering why Usher doesn't have an artistry, legacy and influence but people like Brandy, Ciara, J.Lo, Kesha,, Ike Turner, Christina Aguilera, Aaliyah and Lady Gaga does?? even though Usher have sold more albums, have won more awards and have more number ones than all of them. just making a request for it to be written thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vicious24 (talkcontribs) 07:42, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

A virtually identical question was and answered here back in November. The short answer: you need to make this request at Talk:Usher (entertainer). —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 09:29, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Placeholder title

Stale: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:26, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Request unclear: Not clear what this request is looking for. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 16:07, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi we looking for LINDOKUHLE GUMEDE WHO WAS REGISTERED FOR ACCIDENT FUND .HE WAS IN CAR ACCIDENT ON 3 FEBRUARY 2008 — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:14, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

The use of external software

Answered: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:26, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

I was just wondering if there were any policies or guidelines in place regarding editing Wikipedia via an external programs or general guidelines for using the API with wikipedia. Strange how there is no acceptable use policy page. Or if there is, someone made it really hard to find. --CyberXReftalk 20:09, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Have you seen Wikipedia:Text editor support and mw:Manual:External editors? There is no real reason why we should have guidelines on using external editors, and there is no practical way of preventing editors from doing it in any case. All that matters is what edits they actually make. SpinningSpark 21:30, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
Some programs require approval to use; surely there must have been a reason for doing that. --CyberXReftalk 22:02, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
Because tools like AWB can mess a lot of stuff up in a very short period of time if the editor doesn't know what he's doing, and it can be a real chore to fix. It's roughly the same reason why we require bots to be approved and limited to approved tasks. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 16:10, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Khajuraho Group of Monuments

Stale: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:27, 3 February 2014 (UTC)


Khajuraho Group of Monuments (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Do you think the name of the temple can be different from its presiding deity ? I think one ancient group of people called 'KARAN', sometimes they have been called also 'KARNIK' or 'KARNAT',made all the sun temples. The place of the sun temple in Egypt is called 'KARNAK'. Also the sun temple in Odissa in India is called 'KONARK' sun temple. There is an obvious similarity between 'KARNAK' in Egypt and 'KONARK' in India. I assume that both are associated with the word "KARAN". Moreover all the sun temples in India were made by the rulers of 'KARNAT DYNASTY'. Further more the most ancient Hindu Sculpture and other Sculpture inclusive of 'BUDDHIST SCULPTURE TRIPITIK' have mentioned the word 'KARAN'. The people known as 'KARAN' have been called 'KAYASTHA' in the later period that is after the medeavial period. It has been said in 'PURANAS',of the 'Hindu' Sculpture,that forefather of 'KAYASTHAS' or 'KARANS' is 'CHITRAGUPTA'. In one temple of KHAJURAHO the words,'CHITRAGUPTA TEMPLE' have been encarved and the deity inside has been called 'SURYA'. The origin of the deity CHITRAGUPTA is definitely associated with light according to the Hindu Sculpture, 'GARUR PURAN','SKAND PURAN'. One very popular Hindu Sculpture 'DURGASAPTSATI' writes that CHITRA will reborn from the Sun in 'SAVARNI MANVANTAR',(which is the present time) and he will be 'MANU' that is that first man on the Earth like 'ADAM' in Christianity. In Hindu Sculpture also writes that lord 'BRAHMA' first saw 'CHITRAGUPTA' as more lighted than the Sun who took the shape of 'CHITRAGUPTA' on his request when he failed to see his actual shape because of more dazzling light than the sun. In this way i infer that 'CHITRAGUPTA' is no other than 'SURYA'. Khajuraho_Group_of_Monuments — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 14:34, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're asking for here. This page is to request help with editing articles. If this is what you're asking for, could you please rephrase your request? —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 15:40, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Would the answer be "yes"? St. Peter's, for instance, is not named after a deity since Saint Peter is not a deity. SpinningSpark 17:16, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Article in need of extensive clean-up and editing

Answered: Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:28, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Grey Gardens (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) I hate to tag and run without doing the research and clean-up myself, but I am pressed for time with other articles that I am contributing to and this article seems extensive. There are multiple issues with this article and it seems to be filled with references that cite blogs (Marble Faun website), primary and self-published sources (Lois Wright book) and even self-promoting units of sales (Newkirk CD and book). If I have the time, I will attend to this issues, but at present I am posting here hoping that someone might either place appropriate tags, or at least remove and clean-up what should not be included in this article. Thanks! Maineartists (talk) 14:00, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, just looking at the "aftermath" section, that might be characterized as trivia; some of the items mentioned have little to do with the film, and more to do with the Beales. The "references in other works" section almost surely is trivia (and may well also include references merely to the Beales than the film). Much preferable to both sections would be an influence section—presuming of course this film has had some lasting influence that has been documented in secondary sources, and given they were released by Criterion there probably is something. Adaptations should probably be incorporated, in prose to that section as well. The "Background" section should almost certainly be formed in summary style and incorporate content from the articles on the Beales. The remaining parts of the section that actually discuss the film should be stuck in a section titled "production" or something similar, which should reference secondary sources discussing the production of the film (such as why the Maysles became interested in the story, or what the direct cinema technique was intended to accomplish). —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 20:21, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Splitting navigation box

Currently there is a template for international aid agencies <International development agencies>

I would like to create a two row table. The first row would be for the existing links in the category "Foreign aid agencies" and the second row would be for "Foreign aid policies". I would like to do this to improve navigation because some countries in addition to agency articles have policy pages like China foreign aid and United States foreign aid as well as pages for the foreign aid policies of Japan and Saudi Arabia.

Neoliberalism (talk) 09:59, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

So what is your question? Are you asking for technical advice on how to do it? If you are asking whether or not it is a good idea then I suggest you discuss it at a relevant wikiproject. SpinningSpark 10:04, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

I can't figure out how to do this. I think for sure this is a good idea and isn't controversial. Neoliberalism (talk) 11:02, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Templates live in the template namespace, that is, the page name is preceded by the word "Template" separated from the name by a colon. The one you are refering to is at Template:International development agencies. A new template is created and edited in exactly the same way as any other page on Wikipedia. You can copy and paste the text in edit mode from the existing template to get the format into the new template. A template is invoked on a page by placing its name in a pair of double curly braces. For instance, to transclude [[Template:Foo]] on to a page you write {{foo}}. There is a help page for templates at Help:Template and one for tables at Help:Table. Is there anything more you need to know? SpinningSpark 18:17, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Just realised that you only created your account yesterday. As a new user you will be prevented from creating new pages. We can start the page for you if you tell us the exact title you want to create, but as you are so new, I strongly suggest you discuss this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject International Development first. SpinningSpark 18:25, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Second the recommendation of suggesting it at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject International Development first. There very well may be a template in existence already, just that it's underused. Or there may be an existing consensus that the suggestion is not a good idea. Finally, the people there are going to be the best able to evaluate the idea, and the most motivated to put it into practice. Furthermore, the project participants may have input as to how the template should be organized. For instance, the project participants may feel that just including policy pages on the current IDA template is a better call, or that creating a separate template for policy pages is better than a template that duplicates much of what the IDA template already does. Or more generally, may have input as to how the template might be organized (whether it should have bullet points for different continents, for instance). From there, if you need additional help actually executing the template design, there are several resources available. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 06:38, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Help getting started

I am a writer that could not resist editing a couple pages; and now, I am adrift in wikiland. I managed to read a message but have unable to send one thus I washed up bruised and battered on this page. I wanted to send a message to someone about adoption but failed in that endeavor. I would greatly appreciate some advice.Michael.Sustrick (talk) 23:27, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Well, first off, welcome to Wikipedia! It's not unusual to feel somewhat lost when you're just getting started. If you want to send a message to a specific user, you need to go to that user's "user talk page" to leave a message. Your user talk page is User talk:Michael.Sustrick. You can e-mail users, but that's not preferred for most cases, and many users will not respond to e-mail out of privacy concerns. As to adoption, if you want an experienced user to adopt you, you can just edit your own user talk page and add this: {{subst:dated adoptme}}. Someone will be along to assist you, though perhaps not immediately. You may also be interested in Wikipedia's "Teahouse"; while we can help you with some things here, we're more geared towards resolving conflicts over content, helping with concrete and specific editing issues, and generally as a starting point for Wikipedia's dispute resolution process. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 23:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

List of British monarchs by longevity

List of British monarchs by longevity (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

About the article of the same name, notice the first sentence limits the list to monarchs since 1603, but the list includes Edward III, died 1377.

An editor needs to decide between altering the title and scope of the article or deleting Edward III, which would entail reranking everyone below him on the list.

J2516white (talk) 21:36, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Looks like an IP added Edw. III back in August. I reverted the edit given there's an apparent consensus that pre-1603 monarchs should not be part of the list. If you are interested in overturning that consensus, I suggest you start off a discussion at Talk:List of British monarchs by longevity. You may also wish to bring it up at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject British Royalty to get more participation from stakeholders. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 22:40, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Editor Assistance Request

Osteopathic manipulative medicine (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I have never requested this before, but I am currently in a dispute with editor Alexbrn at the talk page of osteopathic manipulative medicine and I believe he is violating WP:ETIQUETTE. He speaks very rudely when addressing me and uses, what I perceive to be, purposely inflammatory/provocative language attempting to start an argument. It is a heated debate, but I have been remaining civil and have been asking him to do the same, but to no avail. There is also a content dispute on the page and I am considering seeking outside assistance from DRN since other forums have been fairly unresponsive and taken no action to help resolve the dispute. If this is not the proper place to discuss an editor's behavior, please let me know and I ask only that you point me in the right direction. Thank you. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 22:58, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

I just skimmed through the most recent thread on that page. While I think Alexbrn is being a bit forceful and unyielding in some arguments, I don't believe he's being incivil to the point of meriting any intervention. What I do suggest is to focus a bit more on the debate (and Alex should be doing this too: suggesting another editor has a disruptive COI doesn't help in a pure content dispute like this). I would strongly suggest seeking input on the content dispute from others, perhaps at WT:MED, WT:ALTMED, or WT:MEDRS. I think MEDRS in particular may be helpful because the dispute concerns a use of a source that's probably good per MEDRS in a way that seems to diminish the credibility of the subject. Anyway, hope that helps. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 23:56, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Mendaliv is right, I should not have raised the topic your potential COI as an argument here, and I apologise for this bad behaviour. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 06:32, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Minority interests

Last year there was a major exercise to remove lists of bus services, and I was in two minds about it.

But I just came across Normanby_Park_Works_F.C. and was about to flag it as non-notable, when I realised that it is part of Category:Defunct English football club stubs, so there are loads of them. Someone has gone to a lot of effort to record a whole class of vanished sporting clubs.

Now I know little about sport, and care less about Football, but I wonder how useful these articles are. Am I right in thinking this is a whole vein of things like the bus services, or is that just my inate loathing of Football blinding me to something with real utility? I find myself unable to take a dispassionate view on notability, so I wondered what others might think. --Robert EA Harvey (talk) 09:22, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Well, the most straightforward answer is that, per WP:ORG (which covers sporting teams and clubs), the test in effect the same as WP:GNG. In other words, if there exist enough sources to indicate notability, an AfD is likely to fail, which means the community is likely to consider the subject notable. Honestly, the fact that someone's gone to trouble to do it doesn't mean it's notable enough to keep. WP:IINFO might counsel against the needless inclusion of simple attestations to the existence at one time of a sporting club (which is more or less all the Normanby Park Works F.C. article does). But... before you go through all the trouble of mass-nominating articles, I would strongly suggest you seek the input of people at WT:FOOTY, who will be better able to attest to whether the subjects are notable. These could very well be fleshed out significantly, or if not, there may be someplace they can be transwiki'd. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 09:55, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

List of Roman emperors

List of Roman emperors (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I'm not 100% sure whether this is the right place to do this, but I hope some of you are interested to give your opinion at Talk:List of Roman emperors#"Byzantine" emperors should be listed as Roman emperors. Any editor with knowledge on the matter is more than welcome to say his/her opinion on the issue there. Cheers! --Sundostund (talk) 23:28, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

The best place, I would think, to call for wider input would be at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome. That page is going to be watched by people with the knowledge needed to adequately participate in the discussion at Talk:List of Roman emperors. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 23:58, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Thank you, Mendaliv! I'll do that. --Sundostund (talk) 13:54, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Rabbi Pinto

Yoshiyahu Yosef Pinto (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Israel attorney general announced would indict a major rabbi on many serious charges - and have been unable to add to lead of his story.

This rabbi has claimed he predicted 9/11,7340,L-4487744,00.html

Pinto & wife were previously arrested

Pinto & Financial Mismanagement

There are many sources and was hoping for fair eyeballs. (talk) 23:12, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

An issue regarding wording

Olympic protests of Russian anti-gay laws (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

If a certain wording for something (i.e. legislation) has a more neutral term that can be used, yet the media insists on using a judgemental term that might not be neutral (i.e. "anti-gay law", although the law itself does not use either the term "gay" or "LGBT" at all), which term should be used in the article? ViperSnake151  Talk  23:15, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm guessing you're talking about the article title. That's difficult. I think rather than saying "anti-gay laws" in the title, you might call for a change to "Olympic protests of Russian LGBT policy" or "LGBT protests at the Sochi Olympics". I agree with you, however, that "anti-gay law" is probably not NPOV, at least unless it's really that widely acknowledged to be a law for the purpose of oppressing homosexuals. You might want to ask for more input from WT:LGBT. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 23:21, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Shiatsu corrections

Hi, I was hoping to solve this matter on my own but I am being bullied by a number of editors who clearly have their own agenda. The article in question should be in my opinion about the basic historical facts. However some contributors insist upon reverting the historical account to one of hysterical denial. The article is wrong on several counts. I have attempted to correct these but corrections have not been permitted to stand. There is clearly a policy by these watchdogs of ensuring a biased view of the subject be presented in place of simple historical account. I have tried the talk pages, but no one seems wiling to engage with the matter. What to do?



You should stop reverting. You say that you have tried the article talk page but I find no edit there by you since 2008. See Bold, revert, discuss for the recommended process. Discuss the changes in question on the article talk page and then, if you are unable to come to consensus, then consider using dispute resolution. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:34, 14 February 2014 (UTC)


I believe the article Prada gender discrimination case is biased. I explained on the talk page my reasons and suggested ways to make it more NPOV. I have been reverted by two, possibly three other editors without any explanation on the edit summary or the TALK PAGE. I have received unsigned posts on my talk page accusing me of discriminating against women. Their reverts also remove the POV tag and reinsert duplicate paragraphs and contains statements not supported by the refs. I have pleaded with the other editors to join me on the article talk page to resolve this issue but so far – no results. I am trying to avoid an edit war - any help or suggestions you can offer will be appreciated. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 04:17, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Egads. There's enough SOAP in that article to clean a rhinoceros; it needs a fundamental rewrite. Given the amount of legitimate coverage, however, it's probable that deletion is not warranted. Rina Bovrisse might merit a check as well. Both are relatively new articles. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 04:26, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
That article is a disaster. I've hacked away the most egregious bits but more help is needed. --NeilN talk to me 04:41, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
I've hacked out about as much as I feel comfortable removing. But what really, really bothers me is the number of quotations attributed to living persons in the article as factual, rather than allegations. But to fix that, I think you'd honestly have to remove the entire background section. Much of the "timeline" is a coatrack, claiming (without sources of course) in effect a cause-and-effect relationship between Bovrisse's lawsuits and worldwide protests. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 04:54, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, on that note, I'm referring this to WP:BLPN. This is severe. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 04:58, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
Good idea. I have a feeling the IP will be back and having more eyes on that article will be helpful. --NeilN talk to me 05:01, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks guys – I think the article is now headed in the right direction – plenty left to do but a good start. I will continue to watch and comment as I suspect a return of the unsigned reverters - the more watchers the better. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 18:09, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

An article I made was deleted without anyone telling me

Resolved: Directed to WP:REFUND; article restored. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 19:19, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

I made the article Samuel Mensah. I logged in today and figured I'd check out how it was going. I was surprised to find it has been deleted, without anybody taking the time to notify me. Maybe that's normal and I'm asking too much, I dunno. Anyway, the reasoning given is just weird and wrong as well: "not proved to have played in a fully professional league". I gave a lot of references showing that the player played in Superettan and now will play in Allsvenskan. In Swedish, professional leagues are called "elite football" (elitfotboll) and Superettan and Allsvenskan are the two leagues that comprise "elite" (professional) football for men. I could have explained this if anyone asked me. Now I don't really know what I'm supposed to do?

Pomelotree (talk) 18:32, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

As well here is my proof. The organisation "Svensk Elitfotboll" (Swedish professional football) is a founding member of the organization European Professional Football Leagues (proof: And what two leagues does the organisation Svensk Elitfotboll encompass? Allsvenskan and Superettan:

Pomelotree (talk) 18:36, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

The article was deleted via WP:PROD. This means it's eligible for simple undeletion: see WP:REFUND, where you can file a request. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 18:39, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
As to your not being notified, I admit it is a little unusual (presuming you created the article with this account). You are normally supposed to be notified, but without access to the article history I can't really tell you why you weren't. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 18:41, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
Oh I see it now, thanks for the help. I'll try and get it undeleted then. I made the article with this account like a month ago. Pomelotree (talk) 18:46, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
Restored it. Dougweller (talk) 18:59, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Now at AfD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Samuel Mensah. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 11:24, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

  • The league is not listed at WP:FPL because no evidence has been produced that confirms the Superettan is a fully-professional league. GiantSnowman 19:24, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

How to edit an error in references - SOLVED but ...

Thread automaton (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

On page there is a minor error in the reference, but the reference does not show when I click on "edit", so I cannot do anything to correct it. "Villemonte" is part of his last name, NOT a middle name. Bernard Lang (talk) 12:10, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

I solved my problem ... but still ...

The existence of an edit button near the title References is misleading.

Bernard Lang (talk) 12:45, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

I presume that you have now figured out how the referencing system works and don't need any further help, but just in case you do, see Help:Referencing for beginners. Every section title automatically gets an edit link, including the references section. This is actually needed; for instance to change the formatting of the reference list (as opposed to the references themselves). Also, sometimes general references are inserted in the section which are not linked to a particular place in the article text. SpinningSpark 19:13, 15 February 2014 (UTC)


Lakota East High School (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I was attemting to edit a page and keep getting errors on it. I cannot find my error after re-reading all the help tabs and FAQ I am still at a loss. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Danjgrau (talkcontribs) 21:56, 17 February 2014‎ (UTC)

What error are you getting? (Please remember to sign your talk page posts with four tildes ~~~~.) Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 22:07, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
He's referring to an "undefined reference error" that was appearing because not all instances of a reference tag were removed. I actually restored the reference since it's available on the Internet Archive, and linked to there. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 22:10, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
Quite right to restore. As a general rule, broken ref links should not be deleted even if they cannot be found in the Internet Archive, see Wikipedia:Link rot. The ref still remains the source of the information and the ref should be left in the article unless a better ref can be found. It is always possible that the ref can be recovered by another editor if they have the original link to work from. The site may have been reorganised, or it may be found in a different archive such as Webcite. SpinningSpark 12:15, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Jahi McMath

Discussion moved: See WP:BLPN#Jahi McMath—How do we handle someone whose death is contested? —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 22:49, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Jahi McMath (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Several editors have continually changed the verb tense describing Jahi McMath from "was" to "is" and sometimes made other changes to the article to reflect a view that she is still alive. The county coroner issued a death certificate dated December 12, 2013, and myself and other editors have framed the article with the view that she did actually die on that date. This declaration of death was contentious with the family and their supporters (otherwise there would be no point to the article's existence), but I don't know how to resolve this ongoing dispute. Funcrunch (talk) 03:31, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank-you to Funcrunch for bringing this up. Help is needed on the article and the talk page section: Edit warring on death date and verb tenses , specifically scientific or medical help requested and style-guide help needed as well please. I have questions and assume that other editors and WP users have questions about this article that could be better served.My main question is in the section which is while Jahi McMath was at the hospital for almost a month after being declared legally dead, was she physically alive? There is a lot of confusion about this. And can people who are legally brain-dead, who are on life-support, physically die, and why is this even a question? I'm getting the impression that there is confusion regarding physical death. It appears that people think that machines could keep a dead body alive, but I have read that if a body is physically dead the machines can not do that because the body would be dead and progress with all that entails. But I think we need more information. (talk) 04:08, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Jeez. So the issue is that the girl was declared legally dead (due to brain death), yet her body is being maintained on life support. Is she dead or alive? Obviously, whichever direction Wikipedia chooses to go will be claimed to be politically charged, but it's impossible to have an article on this subject without addressing this. Or at least I don't think we can... creative phrasing can't work miracles. Anyhow, I strongly suspect this article might stand for deletion per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLP1E (BLP still applies to the recently deceased). —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 11:27, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
I've listed this at WP:BLPN as well. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 15:11, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
One of my edits which were undone was exactly that-a compromise. Using "Jahi McMath is/was a girl who..." instead of choosing is or was. I asked that question on the article talk page-why not have both, and for date of death--do both ways there too, and for all instances of dispute, why not just have it there right in the article instead of being so presumptuous to imply that Wikipedia has decided for sure one way or the other? (talk) 14:55, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm not a fan of that because the phrasing immediately calls for an explanation because it's just so unusual. Anyway, per a suggestion made at WP:BLPN, the editors of this article should take a look at John Bingham, 7th Earl of Lucan for an example of handling the issue where the person's death is contested. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 21:29, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Can we please keep discussion on this issue in one place ie WP:BLPN#Jahi McMath—How do we handle someone whose death is contested??--ukexpat (talk) 21:49, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

ACTION - variation in citation methods

ACTION (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Assistance sought - there is conflict regarding substantial edits made to this page by User Mo7838 - full details evident on talk page. Once discussions were held, Mo7838 was reminded of the need to comply with WP:Citing sources but continually adds citations without using the correct template. (The article only used cite web and other citation templates, changes added did not.) Reminders to comply have been ignored, or met with the reply "if you don't like it, change it yourself".

Mo7838 is an experienced editor and is well-versed with Wikipedia style rules. While I am happy to correct the occasional citation of an inexperienced editor, that is not the case in this instance.

My questions are: what can be done to encourage (and/or force) this user to comply with this citation style rule? What sanctions can be imposed if Mo7838 continues to ignore this rule? MartinL-585 (talk) 01:42, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Citation templates weren't mandatory last time I checked. All that's necessary is for there to be a fair explanation of what the source is and how to find it (and all that's truly necessary for a web source is a URL). The purpose of citing sources is so someone who wants to check the sources of an article can actually do so. Formatting according to some convention is only to make it easier for the article to be transitioned to print sources. If you want more you're welcome to format it according to a template. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 05:38, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
I appreciate that the use of templates is not mandatory, but WP:Citing sources suggests / encourages / requires editors to abide by the method already in use: in this case that is citation templates. If such a style rule can be routinely ignored, what is the purpose in having it?
As previously stated, Mo7838 is well versed in editing in Wikipedia, but is deliberately ignoring this style convention.

MartinL-585 (talk) 08:43, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Wrong place to argue this. You may want Wikipedia talk:Citing sources. I also suggest getting to the point if you have an underlying content dispute. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 08:51, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
And just to get the point across better, my feeling after skimming the talk page is that there's an underlying objection to the content being introduced through those sources, and the edits the other editor is making. I strongly encourage MartinL-585 to argue the merits of the content issue rather than disputing some minor procedural question. The procedural complaint aired here is, respectfully, without merit. Even if it had merit, it would not result in prevailing in the underlying dispute. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 17:53, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
You may be right that the editor should be complying with the use of templates (I haven't checked the article history to confirm that that is the convention on this article) but there are two much more important things to consider. Firstly, the essential thing is the appearance of the material to the reader. That needs to be right; how it is coded in the editing window is quite secondary and fixing it is a background wikignome task. Secondly, editors should always be encouraged to add sources and thanked when they do so. Not all editors are comfortable with citation templates and some (including me) find them awkward and occasionally incapable of rendering what is required or desired. A far, far bigger problem on Wikipedia is the insertion of material without any referencing. Bitching at editors for poorly formatted referencing could have the wholly undesirable effect of encouraging them not to include references at all. SpinningSpark 10:16, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

With respect, the question was solely about the format of citations (use of templates) and the adherence (or otherwise) to WP:CITE. There are no questions about the contents of the citations, but an experienced Wiki editor would/should know to adhere to standards previously set down. The concern with the edits were with the method by which they were made as well as the editor's refusal to use the cite web template, even after being reminded several times. Further, the editor removed some existing cite web references and replaced them with non-template references, for no apparent reason. Is this an acceptable practice?

Anyway, the question remains: what procedures exist to ensure editors adhere to WP:CITE rules? MartinL-585 (talk) 02:04, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Just to clarify there was not a wholesale purge of existing cites, some may have been altered if incomplete or incorrect. I have seen in my travels references made to some scripts that don't populate article dates, and it may have been to correct these, that cite formats were changed. Mo7838 (talk) 06:08, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Zahara Elenberg

Request unclear: Not clear what the editor is concerned about. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 15:10, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Zahava Elenberg (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I am wondering why the content of the edit page differs from the content of the published page.

As I am wishing to 'minor edit', this is puzzling.

Can you explain why the two pages differ?

Thank you

Herbert rude (talk) 02:44, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

In what way do you see that they vary? I've looked at Zahava Elenberg and it and its edit page appear to be the same except, of course, for the wikicoding in the edit page. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:52, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Incorrect spellings in redirects

Having recently fallen into the trap of incorrectly wikilinking Port Hedland as Port Headland with the latter redirecting to the former, is there a policy on whether incorrect spellings should be redirected to the correct articles or deleted?

The pro of redirecting is that it reduces redlinks appearing and allows a reader to drill down, even if an editor has made a mistake. The con being that readers, like I did, can carry on in blissful ignorance.

If the redirect did not exist, upon reviewing an article, a redlink would hopefully prompt an editor to correct. Same applies to Victor Harbour redirecting to Victor Harbor. Mo7838 (talk) 05:42, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, the Redirect guideline says here that:
Reasons for creating and maintaining redirects include:
(Emphasis added.) Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:58, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
Also, you should tag such redirects with {{R from misspelling}}. I think bots will pick up on mistaken links from those misspellings. There's actually a whole suite of templates that are used to categorize redirects. See WP:REDCAT. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 15:04, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
You're a Wikimensch. I learn something new every day. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:18, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Musical artist infobox images rendering too large

Resolved: Problem was with {{px}}, which {{infobox musical artist}} depends upon. Purge any problem pages if this problem persists. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 20:04, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

I've noticed a few examples of infobox images ignoring thumbnail preferences and rendering at their native size; these seem to all be using Template:Infobox musical artist. I don't have the knowledge or experience necessary to diagnose or fix this problem.

You can see a clear example of this in the template's own documentation page, with the example Mariah Carey infobox. For examples on active pages, see Bill Haley or Gary Glitter. CNash (talk) 15:19, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Not sure what the problem is. The images aren't coming out at native size for me. Could it be an issue with your browser or your default skin? —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 19:01, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
Template:Px was accidentally broken for a while today. If anyone is still seeing huge images then a purge should fix it. See Template talk:Infobox musical artist#Serious malfunction. -- John of Reading (talk) 19:29, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Referencing Our Own Web Site for an Article

Answered: WP:NOTPROMOTION controls. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 14:46, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Asthma (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

We are a manufacturer and distributor of medical products. We have a new product line designed to help asthmatics. This is totally new technology and no other company offers it. Would it be ok if we add to this article to describe our new product in general terms only? We are not necessarily looking to mention our particular brand name in the article.

Additionally, since this is new technology, no other web sources exist for referencing purposes. Therefore, would it be ok if we reference our own web site as our source?

--Americanmedicals (talk) 04:01, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

No. Unless and until such technology is described by third-party reliable sources, it doesn't belong in our article. And as this is a medical issue, we would insist on particularly strong sources for any claims of efficacy or benefits - see WP:MEDRS. Furthermore, since you have a clear conflict of interest it would be improper to edit the article at all - instead any proposals should be made on the article talk page. And finally, we do not allow shared accounts, promotional usernames or user names that imply representation of an organisation - see Wikipedia:Username policy. Accounts must be created and used by individuals only. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:12, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

American Theatre Hall of Fame

The title of the article American Theatre Hall of Fame is misspelled. The first sentence in the lede has it spelled correctly, per the organization's website. Can someone please correct the title? Thanks. (talk) 20:20, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done given the website and that I see no evidence that this is contradicted. Note that under most other circumstances this would probably be a contentious move. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 20:53, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
Mendaliv is referring to WP:ENGVAR, the rule which forbids changing articles between British and American spelling systems without good reason. However, in this case, American Theater Hall of Fame is unarguably an American subject and therefore should uncontroversially use American spelling. SpinningSpark 21:41, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
I suspect the original situation cropped up because the Theater Hall of Fame is located at the Gershwin Theatre, and the article creator (the issue goes that far back) went with re for consistency's sake. Said editor seems to have retired. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 22:05, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

And now we have a CfD for Category:American Theatre Hall of Fame inductees; for some silly reason it wasn't speedily renamed. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 14:51, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Subsection on 'legal aspects' proposed for article Moral responsibility

A proposed subsection on 'legal aspects' of moral responsibility has been posted on this article's Talk page with the objective: "Comments and suggestions for improvement of a subsection on legal aspects of 'moral responsibility' are requested". Very little attention has been garnered so far, and further suggestions would be helpful. Brews ohare (talk) 14:33, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Need Advice

User advised to accept the consensus at present, nothing more we can do here if he does not wish to take the advice of multiple regulars here. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 05:23, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Iloilo International Airport (edit | article | history | links | watch | logs)

This is the first time I have brought up wp:inaccuracy as a reason in the Iloilo Airport talk page, and wp:inaccuracy has not been mentioned on that page before until my latest post, But somebody collapsed my new posting so others will not see it. How should I proceed? Thanks.
Tumandokkangcabatuan (talk) 21:12, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
There is evidently a long history here: See Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/iloilo international airport. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 21:19, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
The dispute is old but the latest reason, which is wp:inaccuracy, is a new one. Tumandokkangcabatuan (talk) 21:23, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
Prior to wp:inaccuracy, I tried to bring the topic to mediation, but the other side declined to discuss it in mediation. There were two issues in that mediation submission I made. Although the other side declined mediation, the first issue (which was their refusal to recognize the official name of the airport as an alternative name) has already been resolved as a result of that mediation submission. This is the second one and has not been resolved. ... wp:inaccuracy was not mentioned in that mediation submission (nor in the previous talk page sections) because I haven't found the page yet. So this is the first time wp:inaccuracy was mentioned in the topic. ... I was thinking of bringing it to a dispute resolution board but I read in the instructions that it must be mentioned first in the talk page. So I posted first in the talk page. Tumandokkangcabatuan (talk) 21:33, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
You do realize, do you not that WP:Inaccuracy is only an essay and that essays have no weight as policies or rules? Anyone can write an essay about anything and unless it is absolutely abysmal or offensive, it will probably stick around for a very, very long time. I also note that the first sentence that says that the essay was "purposed as a content guideline to be linked from WP:NPOV and WP:V" is false in a couple of respects: first, it's an essay, not a content guideline and, second, it is not linked from either of those policies. I rather suspect that "purposed" is a typo and was intended to read "proposed" — one of the principal authors of the essay says as much on the talk page — and that the proposal, in effect, failed when the ongoing discussion died out about it a couple of years ago. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 22:42, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
The phrase "on Wikipedia a lack of information is better than misleading or false information" was quoted from this page , which is a policy page Tumandokkangcabatuan (talk) 22:49, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
True, but not every snippet on a page is policy. The full quote is, "Unsourced information may be challenged and removed, because on Wikipedia a lack of information is better than misleading or false information—Wikipedia's reputation as an encyclopedia depends on the information in articles being verifiable and reliable." The point of the quote is that "Unsourced information may be challenged and removed" which is the point of V which deals with that issue in a great deal more detail. Is the information with which you are concerned unsourced? Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 22:58, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
If the phrase was intended only for verifiability, then it could have simply said, it is better to have no info rather than unverified info. But it did not. The phrase specifically mentions Misleading and False, not Unverified. Verifiability was just an example. The words misleading and false encompass all about accuracy. Tumandokkangcabatuan (talk) 23:26, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
We aren't interpreting a constitution here. Local consensus goes a long way in that grey zone beyond policies and (to an extent) guidelines. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 04:51, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
The original proponent of this inaccurate Santa Barbara Airport term was already willing to compromise. He just wanted it mentioned in the article. And I was already willing to compromise too. When somebody on their side suggested that it can just be mentioned in the article as an incorrect term, I agreed. And I edited the article verbatim to his suggestion. It was at this point that MilborneOne came and insisted that it be presented as an alternative name, period. MilborneOne even refused to include the official name of the airport, Iloilo Airport, as an alternative name. Being the official name of the airport, shouldn't that be the top choice for either the title or the alternative name? But this he refused. It was only after I tried to bring it to mediation that he consented. Now he wouldn't want to listen to anything I say. Although this latest item WP:Inaccuracy had not been mentioned previously in the talk page, he collapsed my posting, and threatened me with a topic block. Tumandokkangcabatuan (talk) 06:11, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Respectfully, Tumandokkangcabatuan, you just need to drop the stick and back away. I've been reading through the talk page. You've already brought up the same substantive point multiple times. Just because you found another Wikipedia namespace document that you can argue your points on does not mean that you get to drag everyone through the same discussion yet again. And finally, your argument is completely without merit. The standard for inclusion is verifiability not truth. This is why we can have articles on things that are demonstrably false (e.g., Cardiff Giant), and why we often lack articles on things that have clearly happened. There are people who refer to Iloilo International Airport as Santa Barbara Airport. There are sources verifying it. So what if that's not the name of the airport? I still call the tallest building in Chicago Sears Tower, even though Sears hasn't had a stake in the building in years; I'll always call the sports dome in Champaign, Illinois "Assembly Hall"; and I'll always know what people are talking about when they call a certain mural Touchdown Jesus. None of those are the actual names, but we would be most remiss not to mention them in the respective articles. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 08:17, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

You said that "we would be most remiss not to mention them in the respective articles." I agree and I have mentioned in my previous comment that I have already compromised to mention the term in the article. But we shouldn't be presenting the Cardiff Giant for example as if it were true. Our thinking are actually the same. It must be mentioned, but it must be presented in its proper context. Tumandokkangcabatuan (talk) 08:26, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
I was only following wikipedia guidelines that all items must be brought up first in the talk page. Since the reasoning was new, I posted it in the talk page. Tumandokkangcabatuan (talk) 08:31, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
There is a section for "Names" in that article. The term should only be mentioned in that section, not as an alternative name in the lead. Other wiki airport pages present only the official names and the location names in the lead. this one, for example. Tumandokkangcabatuan (talk) 08:37, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
The reasoning was not new at all. You're making the exact same substantive argument as before. It's over. Your argument did not win consensus. Please stop. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 08:48, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
My latest posting was the first time that WP:Inaccuracy was mentioned in the talk page. It is new. At least I cannot be accused that I did not mention it first in the talk page. Tumandokkangcabatuan (talk) 08:52, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps not; but it is beside the point. Medaliv has said it well. Stop pressing the point, walk away from the discussion, and find something constructive to do. JohnInDC (talk) 13:09, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. Maybe I'll go to Dispute Resolution. Thanks All. Tumandokkangcabatuan (talk) 13:33, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
That's not likely to be successful. We have three dispute resolution forums, Third Opinion, Dispute Resolution Noticeboard, and Mediation. Mediation has already been refused. DRN (where I'm the current coordinator), like Mediation, requires the participation of the other editors in the dispute, the lack of which which was the reason that your request at Mediation failed. Third Opinion requires that there only be two editors in the dispute and, thus, in effect, that there have been no prior opinions given; you have already received any number of opinions, the most recent being Mendaliv's above. I suppose you could try a Request for Comments, but at this point the clear indications are that it would probably fail. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:02, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
TransporterMan, you are right on the money and absolutely correct. I have a great respect for your objective opinions. Indeed, the three forums you mentioned require participation of editors from both sides, and that was why my request for mediation failed, because the other side is not interested. Goes to show that I am looking forward to compromise while the opposite side does not. If you notice, the forums I went to first were Mediation and Editor Assistance, not the dispute resolution boards. That's because I was and I still am hoping that we could come up with an amicable compromise.Tumandokkangcabatuan (talk) 14:17, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
I don't understand what you expect to happen. You aren't even making any new substantive arguments. WP:Inaccuracy is just a new page that you argue supports your position—a position that you've already argued ad nauseam, and which has already been rejected by consensus. Wikipedia is not so slavishly adherent to procedure that you get to start from the beginning and argue the same stuff all over again (though I can tell you, if this were a court instead, your argument based on that would likely be considered forfeited). —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 14:37, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Consensus? I had already compromised with the other side before MilborneOne came. I had agreed to what was suggested verbatim. That would have been consensus and the end of the issue. Then MilborneOne showed up. Tumandokkangcabatuan (talk) 14:53, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
The current consensus is what it is. Your argument lost, the compromise is gone. Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 15:27, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Respectfully, I think that the compromise proposal of the other side of the dispute that the term be mentioned only in the section for names, and clarified that it is an incorrect name, is workable. After all, there is already an existing section for names, and it could be placed there. This compromise is way off from my earlier position of not mentioning it at all in the article. But they proposed, I agreed, we had consensus. If this pushes though, I'll drop the stick. Thanks. Tumandokkangcabatuan (talk) 04:27, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The image/photograph posted in Wikipedia is insulting Asian American women in United States

Miru Kim (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I want to report the photograph "Miru Kim at Lodz Biennale 2010, Poland" posted in the article "Miru Kim" is an insult to Asian American women in the United States. Miru Kim is an artist. She was born in Stoneham, Massachusetts, but was raised in South Korea. She took part in the series, "The Pig That Therefore I am". In this series, she took the pictures of herself nude and immsered herself amongst the pigs. In her next video performance "I Like Pigs and Pigs Like Me" in Miami, she got naked and slept with the pig in front of the carmera. Would you say this is not an insult to Asian American women in United States? I feel this is really an insult to Asian American women in United States. That photograph posted in Wikipedia is from her series "The Pig That Therefore I am" that she was naked inside the pigs. Please look at it and see what's wrong with it. This is a photograph of a naked Asian American women pretending as she was a pig. You may ask other authors, editors, or even Miru Kim to look at it. I would like to ask Asian American women right in United States for advice if this doesn't work. Thank you for your understanding. (talk) 14:08, 1 March 2014 (UTC)Asian American in California

Considering it's a work of Miru Kim's, there's no reason why it should not be included in an article about the artist as an exemplar of the sort of work she has done. While I feel you might be right that the image is not representative of Asian American women had it been included in a more general article, I don't think such an argument works for the article on Miru Kim herself. That said, I inspected the copyright claim on the image of which you complain: File:Miru Kim street installation Lodz Biennale.jpg, and have determined that it is probably incorrect. I have nominated the image for deletion as lacking permission at Wikimedia Commons. Given my review of Miru Kim's website, I saw no evidence of a release in a free license compatible with Wikimedia projects. It is likely that the image will be deleted entirely in about a week. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 19:10, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
I should also say that my nominating the image for deletion at commons does not mean I agree with you that the inclusion of the image on Wikipedia is inappropriate. Wikipedia is not censored, and from all appearances this is art. You may find it objectionable, but your target for such complaints should be the artist herself. I personally find it unlikely that the intent of the work is to be degrading to Asian American women rather than to be shocking and to criticize the practice of hog farming, but that's my own subjective opinion. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 19:16, 1 March 2014 (UTC)