Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard

Discuss an external link

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Reference links

Matter resolved. Sorry for the inconvenience.

http://www.lastminutetheatretickets.com/blog/

Earlier I removed links to this site that User:Gemini2305 had added to articles about several theatre performers. Though the site's blog does have interviews with the performers, my impression is that the site exists primarily to sell theatre tickets, and I reverted the links as spam. (The user has confirmed on my talk page and on his user page that he is affiliated with lastminutetheatretickets.com.) Gemini2305 objects to my removing the links, so I'm here to seek further opinions. This is what he wrote on my talk page:

"I have to say that I am somewhat bemused as to why you don't wish to have two legitimate links to genuine interviews with two of London's West End cast. I wonder whether you have actually met either of them?

I have interviewed both Zoe Birkett and Siobhan Dillon and they are very appreciative of the interviews with them. I regularly keep in contact with them both as with other cast on Twitter and by email if not face to face.

The content of the interviews is very particularly about THEM as individuals, their careers and the shows they have been in.

Surely that merits being of value to a Wikipedia article about them? These are facts that they have answered and have given permission to be published. NONE of our interviews are published unless we have the cast permission.

Yes our website sells tickets for London shows, but is that the reason why the interviews have not been published?

If so, may I respectfully draw your attention to the link to http://www.officiallondontheatre.co.uk/news/latest/view/item117605/RESPECT%20La%20Diva

This is an article that barely mentions Zoe Birkett and the article is (or was) primarily in place to sell tickets for Respect La Diva

The fact that the website is called the "Officiallondontheatre" gives them no more authority on being a source of information about an actor, and they make a substantial profit of selling theatre tickets as you can see on their website.

I therefore don't understand why you allow one article that has virtually no content about an actor but will not allow an article that is 100% about that person and is 100% original material. I don't understand. Perhaps you might consider contacting either Zoe Birkett or Siobhan Dillon?

I should add that cast that we interview are pleased that we promote their interviews and one such actor has requested that the content be placed on Wikipedia - who 'controls' the content on their Wiki-page - do they?

Thank you for your time and I would ask that you might reconsider what is a genuine request to place information about actors that is both relevant and of interest to readers.

May I add an link to one of the interviews to show the actual content: http://www.lastminutetheatretickets.com/blog/index.php/14620/interview-with-zoe-birkett/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.194.30.192 (talk) 18:38, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Neil

E-mail (Redacted)

I still don't think the link needs to be in any Wikipedia article, but as I said, I am here to seek some consensus. Cheers, Dawn Bard (talk) 18:17, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Does the linked content add to the reader's understanding of the subject? I think not. – ukexpat (talk) 18:43, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I find this comment extraordinary... "Does the linked content ADD to the reader's understanding of the subject? - I think not"

If I can add the following: In my opinion the interview DOES add to the content of the Wikipedia article. It states clearly where Zoe Birkett trained and where she qualified from which is NOT shown in the Wiki article. You trained at the Amanda McGlynn Academy in Middlesborough and the Lorraine Murray Dance School. The interview highlights some of the major venues that Zoe has performed in which again is not present in the original article You have sung at numerous high profile events including; The Royal Albert Hall, VE Day at Trafalgar Square, The Princes Trust, Buckingham Palace, Las Vegas, Tony Blair’s son Leo’s christening, to name a few. Could you describe what this incredible journey has been like for you? The people that inspired Zoe Birkett to start singing are not mentioned in the original article... isn’t that of interest to a reader? Was there anyone in particular who inspired you to want to sing professionally? Yes, Whitney Houston, Tina Turner and Aretha Franklin

and that doesn't add to the understanding of the subject? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.194.30.192 (talk) 19:22, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Two points:

• WP:ELYES specifically calls out links to interviews as a desirable type of link.
• We don't really care what the rest of the website says or does. We care about the contents of the exact page being linked. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:28, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

That's not really true. We certainly do care about the overall goal of the site, as links primarily inteneded for marketing purposes are not encyclopedic in nature. Furthermore, interviews typically can be found in several locations, so picking one on a marketing site is in very poor form. It's also clear the purpose of the editor adding the links is to spam Wikipedia. Stealthy spam, or spam the pretends to have an encyclopedic purpose, is even worse than blatant spam, as there always are editors who get confused and do not delete it right away like ought to be done. DreamGuy (talk) 19:53, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Please go read the guideline so you know what you're talking about. In particular, when you get to ELNO #5 (the complaint being made here), be sure to click through to the footnote, which says "Web pages, not websites. Evaluate the specific page that the link takes the reader to, regardless of other pages in the website." WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:09, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

If Gemini2305 is linked to the site, and there are concerns over the too commercial content of the site, then Gemini2305 is certainly not the right person to insert these links, and probably not even the right person to argue that they are good links to have (it should stop at a mere friendly suggestion). If uninvolved (established) editors think it is a suitable link then that is their choice. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 20:00, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate the views added here.. I wasn't aware that by adding a link that I could not be a part of the debate or discussion as to the merits of it. (I have seen editors add links elsewhere) It appears to be a 'closed shop'. Given that is the case I won't comment again. I will however, add my final comment. I take exception to the comment "It's also clear the purpose of the editor adding the links is to spam Wikipedia. Stealthy spam, or spam the pretends to have an encyclopedic purpose, is even worse than blatant spam, as there always are editors who get confused and do not delete it right away like ought to be done." This is simply false and a lie! How on earth could you know my motive for placing a link? The interviews are genuine interviews with the actors and actresses. They are in my opinion of value to the Wikipedia article. IF you think that a substantial amount of traffic will result from Wikipedia due to this in my opinion you are very mistaken - and any seo value is extremely limited or of zero value (imho). These are FACTUAL interviews with real people - if you were to take the trouble to contact the interviewees who the Wikipedia articles are about I am sure they would agree that they would like a link to an article about them and by them. You also state that there are many interviews on the worldwide web.. em.. not of this type no there isn't. I will leave you to do the debating but please do it without criticizing my motives for posting a link, as it is simply to provide what I consider to be valuable content (and so does the actor(s) who the article is about). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gemini2305 (talk • contribs) 21:31, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

No, Gemini2305, I was not saying that you could not be part of the discussion, of course we expect explanation and discussion, but please do take care with promotion etc. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 07:06, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Link to Overland FAQ on page Overlanding

Hi There,
I'd like discuss adding an external link to the Overland FAQ to the Wikipedia page Overlanding.

This has been discussed on the Overlanding Talk page, and on Biker Biker's talk page, and I was flagged on My talk page.

The page Overlanding gives a brief overview of "Overlanding", including a section on "Modern Overlanding". The information presented is brief, and does not cover many important topics related to Overlanding.

People thinking about embarking on their own Overland adventure constantly ask about many topics, with the following coming up time and time again. Given the external link is an FAQ of the exact topic of the Wikipedia article, and contains vastly more information than the Wikipedia article, Does the linked content add to the reader's understanding of the subject?. Please see the table below.

Topic	Topic Covered on Wikipedia Overlanding page	Topic covered on WikiOverland Overland FAQ page
General feasibility (is it possible to drive around the world?)	No.	Yes.
Shipping vehicles between continents	No.	Yes.
Safety concerns	No.	Yes.
Expense	No.	Yes.
Border crossing logistics	No.	Yes.
Insurance	No.	Yes.
Vehicle logistics (gas availability and repairs)	No.	Yes.

Quoting the external links policy External Links

Wikipedia articles may include links to web pages outside Wikipedia (external links).... Some acceptable links include...information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as...amount of detail

Yes, the content of this FAQ could be rolled into the Wikipedia page, although I have to wonder where the content of the entire WikiOverland site would be welcome in Wikipedia. In the past when Overlanders have tried to add the kind of information in WikiOverland, it has been removed because it can not be cited according to Wikipedia's rules.

I understand linking to a relatively young wiki is against rule 12 in External Links to normally be avoided, though Ignore All Rules says

If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it

Ultimately, I think this link will improve the understanding of the Wikipedia article, and should be allowed.

I'd like to hear some thoughts,

Thanks,
-Dangrec (talk) 02:14, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

This is clear cut conflict of interest. The consensus from editors on the talk page of the article concerned is that the link has no place on Wikipedia. Despite this, and a final warning from an administrator, this user persists in pushing his website. --Biker Biker (talk) 10:01, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

The warning referred to the actual inclusion of the link in the main article. It explicitly encourages the user to discuss the issue on talk pages. This also is the suggested procedure in WP:COIC. While endless debates and WP:ICANTHEARYOU can become disruptive eventually, I think we are far from this situation. Please also see WP:BITE with regards to a fairly new user. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:08, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, an editor with a COI is doing exactly the correct thing by initiating discussion on this page. ~Amatulić (talk) 14:51, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

It's a red herring to get into a discussion about how useful http://wikioverland.org is or isn't. Instead, see Wikipedia:Five pillars. First, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a directory. If somebody is looking for web sites, they should be at a directory or search engine, not an encyclopedia. If Wikipedia fails to give readers a comprehensive list of relevant web sites, that's just fine because it would be an unrealistic goal for Wikipedia to be more than an encyclopedia. The world is not crying out for a new form of directory or search engine. The ones we have work quite well and so Wikipedia needs to focus on being Wikipedia. The upshot of ignoring the guild lines of WP:EL is to put Wikipedia on a path to become something it is not, and has no hope of doing well.

Second, see WP:V. An open wiki is not a reliable source and fails the core policy of verifiability. That doesn't mean such web sites are not useful. It doesn't mean nobody can find these websites just because it's not linked on Wikipedia. Usergenerated sites are vital; anyone can see that. Usergenerated sites to many good things but the one thing they don't do well is provide good references for Wikipedia articles.

The thing is, everything has its place. Wikipedia is not meant to replace all content on the web. It isn't supposed to be anybody's sole source of information. Wikipedia trying to be all things to all people would be absurd. The premise that your site needs to be listed on Wikipedia as a matter of life or death is totally misguided. There are thousands of useful sites that fail WP:EL. That is not a problem. If a site is useful, people will find it without Wikipedia. If your only hope of raising your Google pagerank is a link on a Wikipedia article, you're site is not going anywhere and there's nothing Wikipedia can do to change that. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:42, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Amatulić is correct when stating that Dangrec is doing the right thing by bringing this issue up on this noticeboard. Dangrec should be commended for doing so. He is clearly attempting to increase his understanding of Wikipedia policy as it relates to promotion of his wiki regarding overlanding. However, it is also correct to call wikioverland.org "Dan's" wiki. He created it and he has written a significant majority of the content on the wiki. As Dennis pointed out, Dan's wiki cannot be considered a reliable source. While Dan has done an impressive amount of work in creating and improving his wiki, it must be considered a personal project at this point, and it is not appropriate for inclusion in Wikipedia. Dan has not provided, to date, any evidence that his wiki meets Wikipedia's notability guidelines. There is clear editor consensus on the related talk page that Dan's suggested external link is not appropriate for the article.

Rather than providing links to his own wiki, I would encourage Dan to work on adding well-sourced content to Wikipedia. He is clearly an expert on the subject of overlanding, and his help on related Wikipedia articles would be much appreciated at this point. Ebikeguy (talk) 17:31, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

• Here at ELN, we don't care if "Dan's wiki" is a reliable source. ELMAYBE #4 plainly says that unreliable sources may be used as ==External links==. External links are not supposed to be verifying content in the article.
• We don't care if "Dan's wiki" is WP:Notable. Nobody's trying to write a separate article about Dan's wiki. Writing a separate, stand-alone article about the wiki is the only reason why we'd need to consider whether it was notable. Under the ==External links== section, we list non-notable websites every minute of the day. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:33, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your guidance. If you have a moment, could you suggest a few criteria that we SHOULD care about here at ELN, as they relate to this proposed link? Thanks Ebikeguy (talk) 22:52, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Sure, I can give you my quick summary, but you can read the community's full advice for yourself at WP:External links.

As a general rule, an external link ought to be relevant to the article in question and provide some sort of educational value to people who have read the Wikipedia article and want more information. A FAQ on the subject (assuming it contains noticeably more [or different] information than the article) probably qualifies here.

A link (normally) ought not to have any of the many problems identified at WP:ELNO. For example, ELNO #12 expresses the community's concerns about open wikis: the link might be good on the day that the editor adds it, but it might be vandalized tomorrow.

As you can see, this particular link has points both in favor and against it. Balancing these points is something that has to be done with your best editorial judgment. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:24, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Malév Hungarian Airlines

Hi! Two usernames (not sure if they are the same person and/or if they know each other), User:Waytoomuchinfo and User:Airlinehistorian, are insisting upon including an EL article from frequentbusinesstraveler.com - They also removed EL links for a different archived Malev domain, malev.hu (even though not all archives are at malev.com)

I really think the EL noticeboard would ask that links to minor journalism articles be not included in the El section when higher quality sources are used as references. Am I right?

WhisperToMe (talk) 07:20, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Now that I am looking at this from the point of view of your question above (and your message to me), I think you are correct. The reason I added this back in was because I thought that an article (any article really, not necessary the one that User:Waytoomuchinfo added, would make sense to have in EL because of the vast number of references. Clearly it could just as easily be a more well known source as well but that wasn't my point. Re the removal of the archived domains, I think I misunderstood what the waybackmachine was displaying and acted hastily.

Airlinehistorian (talk) 15:53, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

What happened is that Malev didn't always have "malev.com" as a domain name. Earlier its stuff was only at "malev.hu" - Therefore I wanted to link to archives from both domains, and in English and Hungarian.

Many news articles will generally appear in the "References" section since they are specifically being cited for details in the article, including the section on info about the collapse

WhisperToMe (talk) 18:29, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you so much for the explanation - I'm sorry I caused you additional editing. Airlinehistorian (talk) 20:03, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

You are welcome :) - And it's fine. I'm glad I could be of service WhisperToMe (talk) 21:29, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Proposed External Link

Hello, I received no response when I previously posted this question so I am hoping this time to receive some feedback please. I have a conflict of interest in placing an external link on a Wikipage because I am the webmaster for the website. The subject Wikipage is dementia I write articles and give advise on behalf of dementia care workers and associates on the subject of dementia. Many of the articles are written by dementia care workers and then put onto the site by myself. We have very good knowledge of dementia with hands on experience from people who have worked with sufferers of dementia and other related disease for many years. I believe that we can add great value to Wiki with the website that we want to provide the link to because it gives information that is not provided on this wiki. The domain name is www.dementia.co.uk I believe that we can provide information on the subject of dementia as good as, if not better than some of the other websites that have been given an external link on the dementia page. I have raised the issue on the dementia talk page but have been asked to raise the subject here. I need an editor to put the domain into the links section if they agree that it will a valuable addition to the dementia Wiki page which I believe it will be. Thankyou for reading John cordingly (talk) 22:24, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

It is a nice website with some well written and interesting, but ultimately lightweight articles. It is a well meaning site, but it is far from being an encyclopaedic resource and it fails in my opinion to add value to Wikipedia over and above what it would be if dementia and its related articles were at FA class. I don't think it belongs here. --Biker Biker (talk) 23:03, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Hello and thanks for replying. I must strongly disagree, Most, if not all the articles are written by real people with a real insight into caring for people with dementia. The information gives a true account of what its like to care for and look after somebody with dementia. A good example of how the site provides great information that is not provided on the wikipage would be on www.dementia.co.uk This is for communication skills needed when talking to somebody with dementia. Are you telling me that that is not real information on dementia that is not beneficial to the wikipage. There are links on the dementia page that add little value and are listed. One such one is the one that takes you to Time.com website, surely the site I have provided is giving better information than this link. The subject matter is dementia and the link/website provides as much if not more relevant information on dementia than most of the links that are already listed. They are well researched and very factual. Please look again. Thankyou.John cordingly (talk) 00:26, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I haven't looked at the links on the dementia page. From what you say there are some that are of low value and should therefore be reviewed. I will take a look when I have a moment. That other stuff exists though isn't a good argument on Wikipedia. Forget about what is there already. It really does come down to whether a website meets the criteria at WP:ELYES / WP:ELNO. I don't believe your website meets those criteria. Others here may differ in their opinion. --Biker Biker (talk) 00:33, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Hello And thanks again for reviewing, I am having dificulty though with your reasoning for not including the site, you say that the website does not meet the criteria at WP:ELYES / WP:ELNO. I cannot see why it does not. Wikipedia is about information that is for everybody, written by anybody who has a good understanding of the subject. I have information on the website that has great use to many people wanting to know more about dementia that is not provided here on wikipedia but is related to dementia and after all, that's the subject, dementia. Please give me a reason why the information on the site is not of sufficient quality. I'm puzzled. Im not trying to trick anybody, I just want to provide a helpful resource and further information on demenia. I would be greatful also if you could take a look at the dementia page and the links. Thankyou once again. John cordingly (talk) 00:58, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, John, part of the problem is that you didn't propose a link to http://www.dementia.co.uk/care/5-ways-to-help-you-communicate-better-with-someone-with-dementia/ ; you added a link to the main page of your website, which contains links to other pages (some proportion of which are presumably informative), but which does not itself contain much detailed information. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:14, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Thankyou for replying WhatamIdoing (talk) I agree with your point that you make about linking to the home page. Could I suggest that if we are able to have a link placed on a wikipage would it be better placed on the wikipage titled caregiving and dementia, filed under "Further reading". I think that it could link to the care category page on the dementia website http://www.dementia.co.uk/category/care/. This page shows lots of links to relevant and useful information that will help somebody care for person with dementia. An example would be http://www.dementia.co.uk/care/how-to-help-a-person-with-dementia-get-dressed/. These are very helpful information pages that somebody new to looking after somebody with dementia will find extremely useful. Thankyou again for your response John cordingly (talk) 09:08, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Link added twice today at Genealogy

Does anyone see [1] as an acceptable link? Dougweller (talk) 19:05, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Nope, especially as related to the Genealogy article. It contains a lot of mishmosh, but little genealogy. 71.139.157.39 (talk) 02:32, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

That's my take also. Looking deeper, the section "Automobile Resources and Other Vehicles" is full of links to our articles. Dougweller (talk) 12:57, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

And it's become pretty clear there is a COI issue with the IP. Dougweller (talk) 19:51, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Vassula Ryden

This is a fringe article with the attendant problems. Recently it's had at least two SPAs with accounts and two IPs. Links have changed from time to time but there has been an attempt to add several links to related websites which I've tried to remove, but they keep being replaced.[2] - I'd like other views on this. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 19:57, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Essay being repeatedly added as EL

User:Paul Race continues to add an essay of his, http://www.schooloftherock.com/html/a_brief_history_of_contemporar.html, to multiple articles. I informed him yesterday on his talk page, talk:Paul Race, and on the first article that he was attaching it to, Talk:Contemporary Christian music#Not impressed by the generic explanation when you removed my link twice., that since he is not a recognized authority on the subject he can't add his link. He seemed to be OK with that. Today he added it to several other articles: [3] [4] [5] [6]. I have have removed those as well, however I would like someone else to discuss this with the editor. Would it be possible to have that URL blacklisted? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:15, 9 February 2012 (UTC) (note I moved this from Talk:EL). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs) 18:58, 12 February 2012 (UTC)