Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Cher/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ian Rose (talk) 12:34, 16 June 2014 (diff).

Cher[edit]

Nominator(s): Lordelliott (talk) 00:10, 15 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the American singer-actress Cher and her career of five decades. I started working on this article two years ago and although I don't speak English fluently, many users have helped me through extensive peer reviews. User GabeMC, who have helped promote numerous articles to Featured Article status, advised me to re-nominate this article at FAC (the first nomination was in late 2012). Thanks to all who take the time to review the article. Lordelliott (talk) 00:10, 15 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - I applaud you for your efforts. This article has definitely made leaps and bounds since its last nomination. Unfortunately, the writing is still far from brilliant and I found many POV/unsupported statements, leading the article to read like it was a fan site. Just from the lead:

"Recognized for having brought the sense of female autonomy and self-actualization into the entertainment industry" -> that's a pretty broad and vague statement. Not sure if it's even proper or appropriate to be honest.

That's a resume of her legacy, as seen in the articles of music icons like David Bowie and Madonna. The concept of the "female autonomy and self-actualization" description also seems to be pretty well established in the text, but maybe the actual phrasing in the lede should be reworked. Could you help me with this?

I understand that. Thing is, it reads well on the Madonna article. Not so much here...--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 22:41, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Goddess of Pop"? -> I understand you have some credible sources backing up the statement, however I find this statement just so cliche and POV. Personal taste I guess

This "title" reflects her legacy and importance in pop culture.

"popularized a particular smooth sound that" -> what does that mean? What "smooth sound"?

"Smooth sound" is a soft, warm, more polished style, in contrast to the Motown and British Invasion styles of the era.

You missed my point. Still very vague. I still don't know what you really mean.--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 22:41, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"British Invasion and Motown sounds" -> I don't know is sounds is appropriate. Maybe style(s)

Done

with successful singles -> POV/your wording/opinion. What are the facts? #1s, top-tens, million sellers?

Done: "million-selling singles"

Do you have sources that they are all million sellers? I used that as an example.--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 22:41, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

songs that deal with subjects rarely addressed in American popular music -> a very vague statement. What subjects? Who says they are rarely addressed?

It is also well established in the text ("Music and voice" section): "Some of Cher's early songs discuss subjects rarely addressed in American popular music such as divorce, prostitution, unplanned and underaged pregnancy, and racism.[1][19]"

Some of her early work. Does that mean each of those songs you mentioned previously in specific?--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 22:41, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

After the duo's drug-free lifestyle had lost its popular appeal -> Effectively, you're saying they were popular simply because of their wholesome (particularly drug-free) lifestyle. Very icky statement.

That's the fact. How could it be worked in the lede? Need your help: "By the end of the 1960s, Sonny and Cher's music had ceased to chart. According to biographer Connie Berman, "the heavy, loud sound of groups like Jefferson Airplane and Cream made the folk-rock music of Sonny and Cher seem too bland."[38] ... Their monogamous, anti-drug lifestyle had lost its popular appeal among American youths during the period of the sexual revolution and the rise of the drug culture.[40] According to biographer Mark Bego, "in spite of their revolutionary unisex clothes, Sonny and Cher were quite 'square' when it came to sex and drugs."[41] To recapture their young audience, the duo produced and starred in the film Good Times (1967), in which they are featured in childish skits. The movie was unsuccessful.[38]"

returned to stardom -> sounds "fan written". Far from journalistic

Agree. Maybe just "became"? Could you help me with this?

attained immense popularity -> again. POV statement. Let me give you an example. Oprah is successful. How? Her show was the #1 daytime talk show for 20+ years. That is a fact. We don't write "Oprah attained immense popularity and became very powerful".

Agree. There are two statements that could be worked in the lede: 1) The Sonny & Cher Comedy Hour was watched by more than 30 million viewers weekly during its three-year run; 2) Together, The Sonny & Cher Comedy Hour and Cher amassed a total of 21 Emmy nominations. Which statement do you think is better for the lede?

She became a fashion trendsetter with her daring outfits. -> Just poor, uninteresting/bias prose

Done: removed.

I don't think it should be removed. She definitely has. Just needs to be introduced into prose better.--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 22:41, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cher experimented with various musical styles, including disco and new wave, before becoming a successful live act in Las Vegas. -> You go from 1975 when she "dabbled" with new musical sounds/styles and then jump to her 2008 residency? Aside from being jumpy and random, the writing makes it sound like all of the music she's released since 1975 have been experimental.

Let me clarify: she did a Vegas residency between 1979 and 1982. But because this period of her career is so obscure (and due to the subsequent lack of reliable sources), the residency is referred to only once in the whole article: "During the band's active period, Cher was a successful nightclub singer in Las Vegas, earning $300,000 a week." (See 1980s: Hit and misses, film success and return to musical stardom)

The article needs clarification.--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 22:41, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cher continued to experiment with musical styles -> repetitious, still reads poorly

I need your help with this, too. How could we rework this phrase?

which features the pioneering use of Auto-Tune, also known as the "Cher effect" -> How exactly is that statement backed up? I'm sure the author goes into detail about the "Cher effect", but did they actually write that her usage of it pioneered the movement to use it and made it en-vogue?

Yes! See the Music and voice section: "The 1998 song "Believe" has an electronic vocal effect proposed by Cher, and was the first commercial recording to feature Auto-Tune—an audio processor originally intended to disguise or correct off-key inaccuracies in vocal music recordings—as a deliberate creative effect. After the success of the song, the technique became known as the "Cher effect" and has since been widely used in popular music.[201][2][211]"

The 2010s kicked off -> fan writing

Done: "Cher returned to film in the 2010 musical Burlesque".

Her other ventures have included fashion designing, writing books and managing -> Really? Her other ventures include writing books?

Agree, she only has two books in her credit. Done, removed. Added: "supporting charitable foundations" (see Philanthropy section).

That's not what I meant. Writing books is poor prose.--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 22:41, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be best if you had references or notes by each of these "statements" in the lead. With such a long article to navigate, I would rest assure knowing I can access the references to all these strongly worded statements easily.

Recognized as one of the best-selling music artists of all time, she has sold more than 100 million solo albums and over 40 million records as Sonny & Cher worldwide. She is the only artist to date to have a number-one single on a Billboard chart in each of the past six decades.

Done

Still needs a lot of fine trimming. Again, I commend you on the progress. Good luck.--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 10:29, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks, Peter! Your observations were really helpful. Lordelliott (talk) 19:46, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try and help you where I can, but can't promise I'll be of much assistance aside from pointers.--PeterGriffin • Talk2Me 22:41, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I asked for your help in some points, but I understand that you may not be able (time, interest in the subject) to help me. Unfortunately, there's not much I can do alone in terms of prose, and there are not many fluent English speaking users interested in helping too. Anyway, thanks for the review. Lordelliott (talk) 18:32, 19 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Вик Ретлхед[edit]

The second sentence "Recognized for having..." is way too long. It contains information about three things that aren't relatated to one another (impact over the music indystry, singing style, and legacy).
There are some issues with the prose, particularly the first sentence from the second paragraph: "as one-half of the folk rock husband–wife duo Sonny & Cher". Perhaps would be better "as a member of...". The text in a FA must be comprehensive at the highest possible level and easy for everyone to understand.
Can you make a distinction between her musical and acting career? The third paragraph starts with her starring in a number of movies and winning an Oscar, continues with her experiments with musical styles; the fourth paragraph begins with a summary of her film accolades, and finishes with music record sales and success at Billboard's chart.
The references seem to be appropriate and reliable. One note would be to link the actual source (ex. ref number 47 should have a link to [[People (magazine)|People), so the reader can known from what media you obtained the information.
Other thing I've noticed is that a few sentences are quite verbose. Ex: "Her father, John Sarkisian, was an Armenian-American truck driver with drug and gambling problems, and her mother, Jackie Jean Crouch, was an occasional model and bit-part actress with Irish, English, German, and Cherokee ancestry." You can re-word this by tranferring the clause regarding her father's drug and gambling issues in the sentence when it is said that he was rarely home. That way, I think, the text would flow more logically.
My opinion is that the article is not ready to be promoted to FA in its current state. Perhaps opening a peer review would lessen some problems that the page has at the moment. But anyway, congratulations for your effort in covering such a large topic. Cher deserves to have a proper Wiki article.--Вик Ретлхед (talk) 15:31, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comment I can see that Cher had a multiple decade career and she has inspired many artists including Christina Aguilera and Beyonce. But I can't see any information about that in this article. Simon (talk) 10:04, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment -- This has been open over a month and it doesn't appear likely that consensus to promote will develop anytime soon, so I've decided to archive it. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:32, 16 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 12:34, 16 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.