Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Secret of Mana/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose (talk) 00:46, 23 August 2014 [1].

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Secret of Mana

Secret of Mana (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

• Featured article candidates/Secret of Mana/archive1

Nominator(s): PresN 19:30, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

When you think of the best 16-bit RPGs ever made, 1993's Secret of Mana is assuredly on the list, up there with Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy VI, and EarthBound. Heck, according to GameRankings, it's one of the best SNES games ever made in any genre. And now, it's available to you for your reviewing pleasure! The article has been fairly solid for a long time—it's a well-known game, after all—but in January I pushed through, rewrote almost all of it, and got it up to GA level. After sitting on it for a few months, I'm still pretty pleased with the way it turned out, and I think it can go all the way. Early-90's games can be hard to source, as the games journalism (cough) field was small and mainly offline, and this game got a surprisingly small marketing push in America for how much it sold in Japan (it's the 21st best-selling SNES game ever, but 80%+ of the sales were in Japan), but I think I've hoovered up everything that could be found and made a pretty nice article. Feel free to explain to me exactly how I'm terribly wrong, or to shock me with easy supports. In any case, thanks for reviewing! --PresN 19:30, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Tezero

Hey, I fielded this page's GAN! Nice to see you've gone a bit further with it; I'll put down some comments later today. Tezero (talk) 20:01, 17 July 2014 (UTC) Alright, here I go. Just a warning; I'm gonna be more stringent with the prose than I was at GAN:

• The intro's a bit long considering the size of the article; Reception/Legacy in particular is given a lot of real estate. It could stand at two-thirds its current size and be just fine.
• "the hero, the girl, and the sprite" - Popoi and Primm should be named.
• "Flammie, a miniature dragon which is controlled by the player and able to fly freely across the world, represented by an overworld map" - Minor question, but is Flammie's gender given?
• "In an unspecified time period" - A little wordy; I'd prefer "Sometime".
• "The three main characters do not have names in the original SNES release" - Does the player pick their names?
• "scamming people at the dwarves' freak show" - This is phrased as though this show is referenced earlier, but the reader knows nothing about it. At the very least, go like "a freak show held by dwarves".
• "as well as with her father for setting her up for an arranged marriage" - With whom?
• "Mana Sword, and" - Shouldn't be a comma here.
• "amnesiac sprite child" - What does he remember back to?
• "Over time, however, Thanatos narrows his selection to Dyluck" - Does it say elsewhere in the game why he picks Dyluck? If not, why is this an "over time" process?
• What does the Mana Beast look like?
• How does it reveal itself?

I'll be back for Development and onward later. Tezero (talk) 01:39, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Replying here instead of inline.

• I don't know why FAC has decided in the past few months that we should all move to 2-paragraph intros, but I disagree- right now game release info, plot, gameplay, development, reception, and legacy get like 1-2 sentences each; any further cut down and I'd be skipping sections. I've done intros this long for much shorter FAs.
• Done
• Flammie's male, but it's never relevant beyond that pronouns need to be gendered in English, and I don't see a good way to integrate it into the sentence.
• Done.
• Yes, added.
• Fixed; sorry, characters was clawed out of a lengthier plot section.
• Done.
• Done.
• Video game amnesia, not real amnesia, so all of it, even though he obviously knows language and stuff. The quote is "This child received such a shock from drifting here, it lost all its memories." - It's included in the cited quotes.
• Reworded it; the relevant quote is "For ages I have been searching...for a human with the power to conquer this world... ...one born in the shadow of darkness, and raised in the light of Mana. Dyluck is the one. I cannot wait any longer. My body has grown weak! It is time! Using his body I will take the Mana Fortress, and rule the world!"
• Renamed creature to dragon; it looks kinda similar to Flammie, but a lot bigger, more monstrous, and less friendly
• Reworded to "flies in"; it just kinda... shows up. Flies up to the party from below the screen.

@Tezero: alright, responded to everything you've posted so far. --PresN 23:23, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

• "The real-time battle system used in Secret of Mana is described" - Minor, but perhaps this should be "has been described". It's not a recent description, and perhaps one or more of the creators will die before too long.
• "a lack of sequential text" - ???
• "Other Western localizations were done to German and French" - Is "to" the right pronoun, and is "Western" necessary?
• "Kikuta was originally chosen for Secret of Mana after Kenji Ito, who had composed the soundtrack for Final Fantasy Adventure and was originally slated for the project, was forced to drop it due to other demands on his time such as the soundtrack to Romancing SaGa." - Not awful, but kind of a run-on.
• "to create an immersive three-dimensional sound" - clarify
• " Rather than use premade MIDI samples of instruments like most game music composers of the time, Kikuta made his own MIDI samples that matched the hardware capabilities of the SNES so that he would know exactly how the pieces would sound on the system's hardware instead of having to deal with audio hardware differences between the original MIDI sampler and the SNES." - Also quite a dinosaur-bite, as my dad would say.
• "covers both "ominous" and "light-hearted" tracks" - I'd prefer "includes", or switch "tracks" to "themes".
• "The title track to the game, "Fear of the Heavens", was designed by Kikuta to sync up with the title screen as it slowly faded in due to hardware limitations; at the time trying to match the audio and visual effects in a game was rare." - Hardware limitations? This seems contradictory. Did he succeed in innovating or not?
• "Secret of Mana was one of the first soundtrack releases in North America for the North American version of a Japanese game" - Had North American adaptations of Japanese games received soundtrack releases elsewhere? If not, strike "in North America".
• "with the catalog number N25D-019"/"catalog numbers PSCN-5030 and NTCP-5030" - Relevance?
• Actually... Given how droning and repetitive the text in this paragraph is - which is, to a large extent, not your fault - it might work better as a bulleted list.
• "Secret of Mana shipped 1.83 million copies worldwide" - should be "had shipped" or "has shipped"
• "were also highly reviewed" - There could easily be more releases, so I'd prefer "have also been highly reviewed".
• Why is Re-releases part of Reception, especially when they're discussed earlier? I'd put it in Development.
• Not a strict objection, but why is the image of Flammie flying a GIF? It doesn't move.

Everything else looks fine, I'd say. Tezero (talk) 23:37, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Responses:

• Done
• Moved down and reworded
• Dropped Western and changed to into
• Split
• Reworked a bit, though those word choices were Kikuta's
• Split
• changed to includes
• reworded
• done
• Removed
• I'll see what I can do, but embedded lists are rarely the answer.
• Done
• Done
• Done
• Don't know, that's just what the original image was, and I left it in the article. GIFs don't need to be animated, by the way, that's not their only purpose, though PNG might be better for this image since there aren't large color blocks.

--PresN 20:33, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

• Support, then. Interesting about GIFs, that; I did not know that. Tezero (talk) 05:01, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Mr. Gonna Change My Name Forever

Can you expand the "legacy" part of the article? }IMr*|(60nna)I{ 03:53, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Not really; if I had sources to do so I would have, but I don't. That's the problem with games from the early 90s that weren't that popular in America as compared to Japan, and whose series kinda faded out outside of Japan- Seiken 3 never got released in English, and Seiken 4 (Legend of Mana) was the last one to do well at all. --PresN 23:23, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Support, everything in this article is fine. =D }IMr*|(60nna)I{ 13:31, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Comments.

• I agree that lede sections of 3 paragraphs sound fine by me. However, some of the lede feels... inconsequential? Is the speed of the translation or the fact that the game was retranslated for iOS really that important? Also, the reference to two rather minor games in the lede seems to undercut the claim to be influential later on. Both these bits feel quite cuttable, not because the lede is too long otherwise, but because they aren't really impactful for the lede.

• I ought to clarify this: I'm not against ledes longer than two paragraphs per se; I'm guilty of that many times over, with an article I have at GAN right now having a four-paragraph lede. Rather, I thought it went into a lot of detail given the amount of text in the article's body. I think I can still support how it is, but like with SnowFire, a bit of compression would be appreciated. Tezero (talk) 05:37, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

• I'm not sure I agree with using the character names in the article. How influential is the iOS version compared to the original? The old "Nintendo Power" and other printed sources always simply referred to them as the Boy, the Girl, and the Sprite. Online fansites have traditionally used "Purim" for the Girl's Japanese name rather than "Primm" as well. Anyway, I'd rather stick to Boy/Girl/Sprite myself short of some evidence the iOS default names are the commonly used ones now, but suppose I'll defer to your judgment. (That said, regardless, can this reference be included for the names? More useful than the Japanese page currently there.)
• "The hero, while unable to use magic, excels at fighting... the sprite is physically the weakest." Uh, not to be "that guy", but the differences in damage & health in the cast are actually quite minor. Checking the IGN review linked as the reference, it doesn't say the sprite is physically weak either, merely noting that he's the master of offensive magic. I'd leave it at just what the IGN review says - the Boy masters weapons quickly, the Girl casts mostly defensive & healing magic, the Sprite casts mostly offensive magic.
• "mana represents an ethereal, but finite, energy source" --> If it was 'finite' how did the world ever recover? I got the impression from the SNES translation more that bad things happened when the old civ used too much at once for evil purposes, not that it was like oil where once it's gone it's gone. I'd suggest removing 'finite' and add "technologically advanced" next to civilization, as it should be made clear it was a modern-esque civ.
• "Dyluck, who was ordered by the King to attack Elinee's Castle, which is considered a virtual suicide mission" --> Is this something added in the iOS version? I don't recall anyone being particularly sure it was a 'suicide mission', and a quick check of the SNES script seems to confirm. It's not even really that relevant, all that matters is the Girl rans after him to save him - I'd just cut the part out about 'virtual suicide mission.'
• " leaves the castle to join the hero in his quest, hoping to save Dyluck as well" - Actually, it's more "the girl leaves the castle to save Dyluck, accompanying the Boy as well." The game is interestingly consistent on this, she's only interested in saving Dyluck; if the Boy doesn't even go try to catch up with Dyluck and goes directly to Gaea's Navel, the Girl will leave the party for a time and state she's going to Dyluck.
• "Unbeknownst to the Emperor or his subordinates, they are being manipulated by Thanatos" -- Thanatos is a chief advisor to all of these people, so it's pretty beknownst. The fact he later betrays them is mentioned later.
• "as well as music from Bali" - Bali, the Indonesian island? Bali, the name of some other musician? Seems like a classic case for a wikilink....
• Per above, a lot of the information in the soundtracks section feels repetive, and the perfect kind of data to slough off in a sidebar infobox.
• Is it worth also mentioning the referenced RPGFan article comments about the blisteringly poor reception to Secret of Mana Genesis, that it's 'arranged' but almost identical to the OST?
• 'Kikuta has said that they are "how he wanted the music to sound when he wrote it"' - #1, this is one of those vague bland useless quotes that might as well be cut anyway. #2, it's not clear in the text who you're even quoting from (it is RPGFan in this case) if you want to keep it.
• Is there anything more to say in the re-releases? New reviews, commentary on the differences, etc.? Or even just a statement that these re-releases generated little notice. (Incidentally, if there isn't, that argues more for using the Boy/Girl/Sprite names per the above, but that's just me.)
• "Secret of Mana has been on numerous all-time "best games" lists" --> This is more a pet peeve of mine, but tons of Wikipedia articles these days are just in love with mentioning every minor listicle they get mentioned in - this song was listed as one of Random British Magazine's 25 hottest songs of the summer, etc. It's great you dug all this up, but I'd personally suggest sticking some of the awards in a footnote. (For example, IGN usually provided *two* Top 100s every year, one reader-voted and one editor-submitted. And there'd be random churn each year. That's a lot more than 100 games that make such top 100 lists over time, for all that Secret of Mana is in fact great.) Feel free to disagree though, lots of good WP articles seem to be in love with these lists of mentions, so.

Nice work overall, of course. SnowFire (talk) 03:48, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

• Responses:
• Dropped the less-important bits
• Removed all places where I used their name directly; the fact that they have names outside of the initial NA release is mentioned once in gameplay and again in setting, but that's it. The iOS version isn't a big enough deal to contradict the lack of names originally; it's just the only version I've played so I over-weighted it. Used that English reference as well.
• Done
• Done
• Done
• Done
• Done
• Done
• Given that there's an entire Mana music article, I just pulled out a bunch of the boring bits- length, publishing dates, publishers, etc. Tried to rework some of the sentence flow to make it less choppy- most of this section was copied from a GA I did years and years ago, and it shows.
• Added as a comment after the Kikuta quote
• Sourced
• Added a little comment that there were fewer reviews for the other versions, even if they still got high scores- they are just ports, after all, which usually don't get much.
• Dropped some of them, since they got laborious. What I really want is to replace the whole thing with a source that says definitively that SoM is considered one of the best 16-bit RPGs, or one of the best SNES games, and I guess I'm using top-100 lists as a proxy for that. For a more modern game I could just use awards, but... 1993.
• @SnowFire: --PresN 20:03, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

I made a few changes myself - please take a look and modify if needed. Anyway, Support. I will say that while I think this article is FA quality, there is still room for improvement, especially in the Reception & Legacy section, just I'm sure it'll be aggravatingly hard to get good sources for it. (I think the Edge quote is a bit hyperbolic when it claims SoM arrived "unhyped and unheard of" - anecdotally, SoM was Known among people who owned a SNES, certainly among anyone who enjoyed action-RPGs, and 300K sales in NA was *just fine* by standards then. And of course there are surely more Japanese sources lurking out there.) SnowFire (talk) 06:34, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Dank

• As always, feel free to revert my copyediting.
• "The Japanese release referred to the three protagonists as Randi, Primm and Popoi ...": It's probably not necessary to say this three times.
• Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. Very readable, and a very easy copyediting job. - Dank (push to talk) 01:43, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much, and I've pulled the extraneous Randis- thought I'd chopped it down to two, but I guess not. --PresN 03:47, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Looks good. Happy to help. - Dank (push to talk) 04:00, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Resolved comments from JimmyBlackwing (talk) 20:41, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

;Prose review from JimmyBlackwing Impressive work digging up all this material on an old (and Japanese) game. Although prose is my focus, I might comment on other content issues if they stick out. "released in North America as Final Fantasy Adventure and Europe" — Should be "and in Europe" to eliminate the possibility that it was "released as ... Europe". "its release marked the transition of the Seiken Densetsu series's marketing from a thinly related spinoff of the Final Fantasy series to the wholly separate Mana series." — Very vague, on top of being snake-y. Perhaps, "it was the first Seiken Densetsu title to be marketed as part of the Mana rather than the Final Fantasy series." "Set in a fantasy world" — Also vague. Surely it's associated with one of the dozens of fantasy genres. If not, at least provide a wikilink of some sort. The final sentence of the lead's first paragraph is a titanic snake, and it really doesn't mean anything to someone who hasn't read the Plot section. "Empire"? "Mana Fortress"? "Mana Tree"? Having not played the game or read past the lead, it's just cruft to me. The sentence's length should be reduced by about 50%, and the remaining content should be rewritten in a more accessible summary style. First sentence of paragraph 2 is another python. It could actually be ended directly after "real-time battles". After that, remove the "alongside role-playing elements" (we've heard it's a role-playing game already) and begin the next sentence, "The game features a unique Ring Command etc." "needing to switch screens" — I've played my share of JRPGs, but I still barely understand this. The talk of the iOS version in the second paragraph is inappropriate and kind of irrelevant. That's definitely material for legacy discussion in paragraph 3. Paragraph 3 is a single sentence. It's one of the longest sentences I've ever seen on Wikipedia. Needless to say, it desperately needs to be chopped up into smaller, more digestible pieces. I thought I'd have time to review more of the prose than that, but it didn't work out. I'll be back later with part 2 (and possibly 3) of my review. Judging by the lead, this is several steps above the Mass Effect list—but it still suffers from vagueness and snakes. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 07:04, 13 August 2014 (UTC) Done. Done. Specified as high fantasy- could also be heroic fantasy, but that seems to be more about literary style than setting. Long sentences need love too! Cut down. Chopped in half Tried to clarify I think this is the third article in a row you've said that to me; not sure if I'm getting worse about those or what. It didn't use to be the only sentence in the paragraph, but it was still that long before. Fixed. --PresN 20:06, 13 August 2014 (UTC) Made a few follow-up adjustments. The lead looks good now. I'll try to review more later today—sorry for the delay. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 20:35, 13 August 2014 (UTC) No worries (or rush) - I'll try to get a review done for your FAC soon, been meaning to get to it. --PresN 20:58, 13 August 2014 (UTC) Prose review from JimmyBlackwing, part 2 "Like many other role-playing games of the 16-bit era" — Entails that many 16-bit role-playing games feature three protagonists, respectively named Randi, Primm and Popoi, etc. First sentence of Gameplay is way too long, and it starts to break down grammatically in the dash-enclosed section. "Control may be passed between each of the characters" — Seems to suggest that the characters are doing the controlling. "In order to support three players, a Super Multitap accessory must be plugged into the second controller port of the Super Nintendo Entertainment System (SNES) console." — Definitely WP:GAMEGUIDE. Perhaps, "Support for three players is made possible by the Super Multitap accessory for the Super Nintendo Entertainment System (SNES) console." "gameplay with the use of additional" —> "gameplay via additional". "the girl functions as a healer, able to cast restorative and support spells" —> "the girl is a healer who casts restorative and supportive spells". "each character can increase in level to gain improved stats such as strength and evasion" —> "each character increases in level and improves in areas such as strength and evasion". "can find refuge" — Better: "may rest". "Located below each character's hit points at the bottom of the screen is a gauge that determines the amount of damage done to an enemy when attacking." — Big run-on. Should be rephrased to be shorter, preferably with a comma somewhere. "styles of weapons throughout the game" — As is usually the case, "throughout the game" can be cut with no loss in clarity. "eight times through the game" — Ditto. "repeated use increases their Skill Levels to a maximum of eight" — Repeated use of weapons or upgrades? Also, whose Skill Levels? And why is Skill Level capitalized? "new charged attack" —> "new special attack". A sentence rewrite suggestion: "Weapons are upgraded through the use of with Weapon Orbs, generally obtained after which are found in dungeons or earned by defeating a certain bosses or found as a treasure in dungeons." (Italics signify an addition.) Another: "Once an Orb is collected, The player takes each Orb to the weapon can be brought to a blacksmith, located in most towns, who uses it to reforge one weapon to be reforged." "Magic in Secret of Mana operates in much the same way as weapon skill progression, with the exception that magic points are consumed each time a spell is cast." — Needlessly long and informal, on top of being vague. Plus, it's redundant with what comes next. "different elements—water, earth, wind, fire, dark, light, moon, and life—and" —> "different elements—such as water, earth, and life—and". "Magic skill can only be as high as the party's current Mana Power, which increases by one with every mana seed unsealed." — This is Greek to me. What is a mana seed? How is it unsealed? What is Mana Power, and why is it capitalized? What is "magic skill"? I'm completely lost. "an enemy-infested countryside in order to reach their next destination" — Should be more specific. It seems necessary, but leaving it this vague gives it a crufty vibe. "expedited through use of Cannon Travel Centers" —> "expedited with Cannon Travel Centers". "where non-player characters offer to launch the party to faraway destinations via a giant cannon" —> "where the party may be launched to faraway destinations via a giant cannon". The way the Mode 7 image bleeds into the Plot header is kind of unsightly. Any way to fix that? Rename "Setting" to "Setting and characters". It isn't just a Setting section. "The story takes place in a fictional world where mana is an ethereal energy source" — What is "mana", and why would we think of it otherwise than as an "ethereal energy source" to begin with? I'm confused. "Sometime in the past, a technologically advanced civilization" —> "An ancient, technologically-advanced civilization". "The gods" — Which gods? As it stands, the voice is in-universe. "their beasts" — Again, too vague and borderline in-universe. "world until" —> "world, until". "default names in the original SNES release" — "Default name" is vague to someone who's not versed in JRPGs. "the Japanese version stated their names in the manual" — The Japanese version wrote the manual? Perhaps, "their names appear in the manual of the Japanese release". "his mother" — Dangling participle. Standardize the capitalization (or lack thereof) on "king". Sentence rewrite: "Angry with the king for this, Angered by the King's [or king's] actions and her father's attempt to as well as with her father for setting her up for an arranged marriage arrange her marriage to with a local nobleman, she rebels and leaves the castle to save Dyluck, accompanying and to accompany the hero as well." "The two" — The girl and Dyluck? Dyluck and the hero? The king and the nobleman? It's not clear. Another rewrite: "The game begins as Disobeying their Elder's instructions, three boys from the small Potos village disobey their Elder's instructions and trespass into a local waterfall, where a treasure is said to be kept." "During his journey, the hero is joined by an amnesiac sprite child and the daughter of a nobleman from Pandora." — They've already been introduced. Same applies to the next two sentences. Why have a Characters section if you don't use it to cut down on introductory material in the Story section? Why isn't the Empire introduced in the Setting section? Seems necessary, especially when the group is introduced cold in the Story section. "unseal the eight Mana Seeds" — Again: what is a Mana Seed? "has designs on creating" —> "hopes to create". "When his body deteriorates too far, however, Thanatos chooses to possess Dyluck." — Most of this seems kind of unnecessary, or at least too vague and redundant (as it stands) to be worth including. "Pure Land" — Another unexplained name. Might not even be necessary to include. "form which is defeated in battle" — "form, which the party defeats." Unfortunate detour: I have very serious 1b concerns when it comes to the Development section. As in, the nomination seems oppose-worthy on that point alone. Normally I'd understand the lack of dev info on an old/Japanese game, but that really doesn't fly in this case. Nintendo Power Nov 1993 contains a feature on the game, as does Retro Gamer #85. LEVEL #6 contains a very, very in-depth retrospective interview/feature. Even this little Edge feature contains dev information not in the article. And that, I hate to say, is after only a very superficial search. Much more is definitely out there, particularly in Japanese. Add to that the thinness of the Reception section, when reviews from Nintendo Power ([2]), GamePro ([3]) and GameFan (ask User:Thibbs) are readily available. Before I continue the prose review, the 1b issue needs to be addressed thoroughly. For now, I have to oppose based on both 1a and 1b. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 10:01, 15 August 2014 (UTC) I saw my name mentioned so I just wanted to say that I'd be happy to make any material I have available if needed. Just ping me or post on my talk page. It looks like additional hardcopy sources exist as well covering development and reception in the 2007 May and 2008 December issues of Nintendo Official Magazine, and possibly the 1993 October, 1993 November, and 1993 December issues of Electronic Gaming Monthly. I'm not sure whether or not the EGM reception material is already part of the article because although the reception section mentions a 1993 EGM review, there is no attribution to the original article, only the modern-day archived version. I've never gone through the FA process myself, but I'd imagine that a more precise citation to the actual 1993 EGM review(s) would be a good idea (with a link to the archived version for verification purposes, of course). And lastly, another option for Nintendo Power #54 (linked by JimmyBlackwing above) is via here. -Thibbs (talk) 18:21, 15 August 2014 (UTC) Helpful as always, Thibbs. Regarding my EGMs: I just checked, and the non-review articles don't contain any development material. However, I could provide the page information on the review, if PresN thinks it's necessary. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 00:53, 17 August 2014 (UTC) Ugh, if I had any doubts that my lack of time and energy for Wikipedia in the past 6 months or so has had a terrible effect on my article writing, this completely dispels them. I'd like to apologize; some of these prose errors are terrible and I should have caught them long before. I've gone through all the points you've listed above. As to 1b, I've asked Thibbs to give me whatever he can, and I would like the page information on the EGM review if you have time. I'll ping you back to the review when I've, you know, expanded/rewritten the entire bottom third of the article. --PresN 19:06, 18 August 2014 (UTC) No worries. The article isn't perfect, but it's not in horrible shape. You'll almost definitely be able to get it pulled together before the nom's closed. I made a few further copyediting tweaks to the article, but my 1a complaints above have now been addressed. Unfortunately, I won't be able to continue the prose review until the rest of the article is finalized. Here's the citation info: "Semrad, Ed; Carpenter, Danyon; Manuel, Al; Sushi-X (December 1993). "Game of the Month; Secret of Mana". Electronic Gaming Monthly (53): 40." Good luck. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 21:37, 18 August 2014 (UTC) Article's much better already. I'll complete the prose review as soon as you've finished expanding Development and Reception, which (from the looks of it) shouldn't be too much longer. I look forward to supporting this article. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 06:52, 21 August 2014 (UTC) @JimmyBlackwing: Alright, ready to go. Dev has been greatly expanded, basically through two sources: the Swedish Level interview and the retro gamer feature (with a hint of the Edge piece that came out after I wrote the article). Reception has been expanded a bit, with the GamePro and Diehard GameFan reviews and Legacy with the Edge piece; other than that there wasn't much to pull out. The Nintendo Power article was just a game guide puff piece, and the previews in various sources were breathless salivating without new details. 1993 was not, it seems, a banner year for games journalism. Thibbs has offered to see if he can find a 1993 Famitsu review, but even if he does there won't be much to add beyond the scores. In any case, I think the last two sections of the article are ready for you to look over and glare at me for stuffing too many dependent clauses into a single, overwhelmed sentence. (Though I tried to chop those up in anticipation.) --PresN 21:48, 21 August 2014 (UTC) Continuing the prose review. "Koichi Ishii, the creator of the series" — What series? Thus far, the article body has not mentioned any other games in the Mana series. And, since this is only the second Mana game, it would probably be better just to call Ishii the creator of SoM's predecessor, the first game in the Mana series. "the game is more 'his game' than other games" — "Game" three times in nine words. Given the edits I just recommended, it would be necessary to edit sentence 4 to avoid redundancy. Here's a suggestion: "The team hoped to build on the foundation of Final Fantasy Adventure, and they included several modified elements from that game and from other popular Square titles in Secret of Mana." "than its Game Boy predecessor" — Better to mention earlier on that Final Fantasy Adventure is a Game Boy title. "more engaging than waiting for a bar to fill up" —> "more engaging". "Mana game; instead" — Should be a colon. "temporary helper characters" —> "temporary companions". "alternative main characters to the hero" — "protagonists". "data tables for experience points and leveling up" — Haven't played the game, so this is a mystery to me. Sentence rewrite: "According to Tanaka, has stated that the game's the battle system in the game contains ideas features mechanics that had first been considered for the developers of Final Fantasy IV were considering." "Other ideas for Secret of Mana were used in development for Chrono Trigger" —> "Similarly, unused features in Secret of Mana were appropriated by the Chrono Trigger team". "When Sony changed the project to be the standalone PlayStation console," — This isn't really what happened, as I'm sure you know. I understand the impulse to simplify the history a bit, but I think it would be appropriate to add something like, "After the deal between Nintendo and Sony to produce the add-on fell through, and decided to Sony develop the SNES CD into the PlayStation console, etc." "game cartridge" — Should link to ROM cartridge. "but were overruled" —> "but they were overruled". Sentence rewrite: "The largest of these Most major of these removals was the option to take multiple routes through the game, which would have resulted in that led to several possible endings, in contrast to rather than the linear journey in the final product the plot ended up taking." "had to be dropped" —> "was dropped". "have connected the hardware change to some technical problems the game has when too much is happening at once in the game" —> "have suggested that the hardware change led to technical problems when too much happens at once in the game". A rewrite: "In 2006, Level magazine has claimed that the Secret of Mana's rocky development issues for the game due to the cancellation of the CD add-on led directly to was Square's main inspiration to move moving their games, such as the Final Fantasy series, from Nintendo consoles to Sony consoles in 1996." "was initially advertised as Final Fantasy Adventure 2" — A translation is not advertised by name. The localization in which the translation appears is what they marketed. "presumably" — Presumably according to whom? "fixed-width font" — Any internal links available for this? "the Western versions omitted the default names and first acknowledged them with the" —> "Western versions omitted the characters' names until the". I'll be back later with more. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 23:37, 21 August 2014 (UTC) Final prose comments "'immersive', and would sound 'three-dimensional'" —> "'immersive' and 'three-dimensional'". A rewrite: "With those These custom samples, allowed him to know he knew exactly how the pieces each piece would sound on the system's hardware, so he did not have to worry about rather than having to deal with audio hardware differences between the original MIDI sampler and the SNES" "Kikuta considers" — Should be dated, like "as of XXXX" or "in XXXX, Kikuta said that he". "His compositions for the game" — This would be better placed in the next paragraph, somewhere. "screen; at the time trying to match the audio and visual effects in a game was rare." —> "screen. At that time, composers rarely tried to match a game's music to its visuals." "up; getting the sound" —> "up. Getting this sound". A rewrite (no fancy formatting this time, due to the abundance of italics in this sentence): "The 1993 soundtrack album Secret of Mana Original Soundtrack, first released as Seiken Densetsu 2 Original Sound Version in Japan, collects 44 tracks of music from Secret of Mana. Aside from its packaging and localized song titles, the English release is identical to the Japanese original." "Secret of Mana was one of the first soundtrack releases for the North American version of a Japanese game." — I'm only dimly capable of understanding this sentence. "In addition to the original soundtrack album, an arranged album of music from Secret of Mana and Seiken Densetsu 3 titled Secret of Mana+ was produced in 1993." — Ditto. Sentence after that is vague, as well as a snake. "is described as" — Described by whom? "also been described as" — Ditto. Final sentence of the Music section is a massive snake. "their planned nine-game lineup" — I don't understand. "no news of the port ever surfaced outside the announcement" — Citation? Also, which remake of Final Fantasy III is being discussed? A WonderSwan remake? One of those Edge sources Thibbs gave you mentioned that SoM sold out in Japan in just a few days. Probably notable enough to include in the first paragraph of Reception. Also, the Edge quotes currently in that paragraph could use some paraphrasing—I'm all for quotes, but that's a bit overkill. "well-received at the time of its release" — I know these OR summary sentences are desirable, but they really shouldn't be used. "In their 1993 review of the game, the reviewers for Electronic Gaming Monthly" —> "The magazine's reviewers". The EGM summary sentence should also be chopped up; it's too long. It isn't necessary to specify that the DieHard GameFan review is from 1993. Ditto for GamePro. And ditto for all instances of dating these reviews, except for when you jump to retrospective sources like IGN. "Edge magazine said" —> Difficult habit to break, I know (so well), but magazines can't speak. Ditto for other instances of personifying Edge. Right now, the coverage of Edge's review is 16 words of original prose and 83 words of quoted text. Definitely needs to be tilted in the other direction, at least a bit. Dragon's review score is in the template. There's no reason to have it in the prose as well. "Later versions of the game have also been favorably reviewed" — OR again. IGN score should be removed from the prose. Slide to Play review summary is another snake. A rewrite (again, no fancy formatting): "In 2014, Edge magazine described Secret of Mana as 'one of the high points of the 16bit era'. A writer for the magazine noted that, 20 years after Secret of Mana's release, its reputation as a SNES action RPG is surpassed only by that of The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past." "The game has been on numerous all-time 'best games' lists since its release." — Would be fine for a lead section, but in the body it's just OR. The sentence related to Dungeon Siege and Temple of Elemental Evil is an outrageously huge snake. "mascot character for the series" — Which series? Dungeon Siege? That should do it. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 04:33, 22 August 2014 (UTC) All done! --PresN 19:56, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support: A great article. Props to PresN for putting up with a very long and intensive review. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 20:41, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Image check (GermanJoe) - all OK

• 3 fair-use images of sufficient low resolution and valid rationale (see second comment) - OK.
• The third fair-use -of a Mode 7 screenshot- is a close call (we have a separate "Mode 7" article, where such a screenshot may be better). But if it's a significant feature of this specific game, it should be OK here aswell.
• Other images of developers are CC, with sufficient source info and personality rights tag - OK. GermanJoe (talk) 20:34, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Source review by Tezero

Will do. Tezero (talk) 21:23, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

• 8. You might consider linking Nintendo World Report.
• All sources look reliable, though you might want to specify right away in the citation somewhere that 34 is an interview since Square Haven doesn't otherwise look like an RS.
• Spotchecks (is this enough?):

• 34: good
• 54: good
• 44: good, but you might want to specify that these differences are between the SNES originals and the rearrangements
• 24: good, though it took me a bit to find "FF III" as I'd been looking for the more general "Final Fantasy III", "experience", and "level up"
• 14: good, I assume
• 64: good in that it contains the appropriate content, but it was a dead link for me (archive), though this may be because of this library computer's lousy Windows-Firefox setup. I'd recommend checking a few for dead links.

Tezero (talk) 21:38, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks so much! swapped deadurl=no to deadurl=yes for the IGN top100 lists; all three live links are dead for me too. --PresN 21:49, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Alright, cool. Continue to support based on sources. Tezero (talk) 21:51, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 00:46, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.