Wikipedia:New Zealand Wikipedians' notice board

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Time and Date: 04:21 30 August 2014 NZST
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Archives[edit]


Move of Māori All Blacks to Maori All Blacks[edit]

This moved was performed as an uncontroversial move request (see [1]) -- can someone with a better knowledge of the Māori language tell me whether this is in fact the correct thing to have done? (pinging @Gadfium, Avenue, Kahuroa: who may be able to help) -- Shudde talk 02:06, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't think this was an uncontroversial move, but it isn't an unreasonable one. allblacks.com, Stuff, NZ Herald and TVNZ all use the name without a macron (but I haven't checked to see if they are consistent). Te Ara does use the macron.
The article was originally at "New Zealand Maori" and covered both the rugby union and rugby league teams. Amacron was added to the article for the team name in April 2006, and it was moved to New Zealand Māori rugby league team the following month, with New Zealand Māori rugby union team created as a split. See the rugby league article for the early history.-gadfium 04:15, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Yeah it's been moved around a fair bit, but this latest move was one I was unsure of. Malcolm Mulholland's book on Māori rugby uses the macron as well. – Shudde talk 04:23, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
@Hippo43:-gadfium 04:36, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
I just moved it because I noticed it isn't the spelling used by the NZRU, whose team it is. In their article announcing the team being renamed, it was spelt this way, so it seemed clear to me. Apologies if it is controversial to anyone, but if it hadn't involved a redirect, I would have just moved it myself, as it seemed really straightforward. I dug around the NZRU site and couldn't find any examples with a macron. I also couldn't find examples of the old names being spelt with a macron, on old match programmes etc. Happy to be corrected if I've got this wrong somehow. --hippo43 (talk) 15:38, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
@Hippo43: -- Hey, thanks for replying. I had no doubt that it was a good faith move request, but I don't think the decision is in fact straightforward. I've done a little reading, and I it seems that the macron isn't supported by all publishing systems -- this may bias any sample of it's use at news sites etc. I'm sure you were unaware that the NZRU do in fact use the macron (although not universally, as you know). The press kit they released for the Māori All Blacks most recent tour (to North American in late-2013) uses the macron in nearly all cases (see pdf here -- this kit has some really useful information if anyone is looking for a source for the article btw). My conclusion is that there isn't any "official" preference for the macron or not, however it does look like using it is preferred where possible by the Māori Language Commission. I completely understand why you made the move request, but am now thinking it was a mistake. -- Shudde talk 08:43, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure about that. The press kit is interesting, but from what I've been able to find, the NZRU overwhelmingly don't use the macron. We can't infer that they would use it if their publishing systems were different somehow or conclude that there isn't any official preference. Their logo doesn't have a macron, when it easily could be included. If the NZRU spell it 'Maori All Blacks', then that's the correct name, no?
On the question of the Māori Language Commission, their preference does not override policy here - we use what reliable sources use (in this case, the body whose team it is). Second, their statement on the use of macrons refers to the Maori language, not English! In the English language Wikipedia, their preference is irrelevant. The word 'Maori' has become an English word and most often does not have a macron. I don't have an opinion either way about how it should be written. If the NZRU choose to change their spelling to include a macron, then I would support changing the article name back. --hippo43 (talk) 19:28, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Your argument seems to have changed. Your original reasoning was "correct spelling per official sources - NZRU etc" ([2] you never provided a source or evidence). Then above you said "I dug around the NZRU site and couldn't find any examples with a macron". So you've used anecdotal evidence, the problem with this is that it could easily be wrong. I've found a very recent publication by the NZRU that uses the term "Māori All Blacks" (with the macron) 39 times ("Maori All Blacks" was used twice). Then you say "We can't infer that they would use it if their publishing systems were different somehow or conclude that there isn't any official preference". Are saying that the NZRU have an official preference for not using the macron, yet used it 39 times in a publication they provided to the press less than 6 months ago? Did you have a look at the pdf? The move was controversial, and no consensus was either sought or established. The move should be reverted and then consensus should be established before deciding to remove the macron. -- Shudde talk 09:11, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

I think you're making a controversy out of nothing. I haven't tried to make an argument, I've just explained why it is pretty obvious the NZRU's name for the team is spelt without a macron. I didn't seek consensus or list a bunch of sources because it's not really controversial.
You've referred to just one press release, written by who? The chief executive of the union or one copywriter, with a preference for macrons, in their media department? We don't know. If you look closely, the team logo appears numerous times (many more than 2) in the same document, without a macron. I think we can presume that the union would get the spelling right on their logo. Also, the press release contains several errors - the team was not called the Maori All Blacks in 2010, or 1900, as it asserts - so I'm not sure how much weight it carries. This source, from around the same time, doesn't use macrons at all as far as I can tell, so what should we infer from it?
However, the main reason this is not actually controversial is that the NZRU explicitly stated that the name is 'Maori All Blacks' in this source, directly addressing the issue of the team's name, not just mentioning it in passing. This is obviously a statement of an 'official' spelling. It's not really credible that they announced the new name on their website and got the spelling wrong, and that they continue to get it wrong all over their website, and that they continue to get it wrong on the logo that is on their jersey and plastered all over every event they are involved in. --hippo43 (talk) 12:49, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
I've put a formal move request on the article's talk page. Schwede66 17:25, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

A potential COI or impersonator perhaps,[edit]

Shanejonesmp (talk · contribs) has been created. Kiwi editors may be better to deal with issues (if there are any) arising. -- Mattinbgn (talk) 09:02, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

More likely an impersonator, I would expect an MP to be sufficiently educated to be able to add an edit summary and I doubt he would add his new partner as "spouse" if they weren't married. I can find nothing to confirm that Jones is divorced so assume he is still married. Best to take this to Talk:Shane Jones. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 09:30, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Kingston Flyer[edit]

Kingston Flyer suggests that the train is currently running, but I was in Kingston a week ago and the trains look as though they have been laid up for at least a year - covered in cobwebs, and one locomotive has the front fan of its boiler chamber off (and badly rusting). The restaurant at the station is also closed down. Unfortunately I don't have time, so is someone willing to check for news reports and update the article? dramatic (talk) 22:17, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Updated article to the position as at December 2013. Not running and on the market for sale. NealeFamily (talk) 23:30, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

New Zealand regions RM discussion[edit]

I have started a formal WP:RM discussion about the regions issue. The discussion is here. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:52, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Manawatu-Wanganui Region RM discussion[edit]

The discussion mentioned above for all of the NZ regions was a bit of a bust, and it's clear from the comments there that if there is to be any change they will probably have to be approached individually. I've started a discussion regarding Manawatu-Wanganui Region here; all input/views are welcome. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:29, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Otago Region RM discussion[edit]

The M-W discussion above resulted in the page being moved. Next up: Otago Region. All inputs and views are welcome. Good Ol’factory (talk) 07:19, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Waikato Region RM discussion[edit]

One in a continuing series of RM discussions for NZ regions: Talk:Waikato Region. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:24, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

The suggested move to Waikato is much more problematic than the previous two above, so do discuss. Nurg (talk) 05:09, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Another region RM discussion[edit]

We're now on to discussing renames for the regions of Auckland, Bay of Plenty, Gisborne, Taranaki, and Wellington. Discussion is a group one, and is here. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:55, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

There was consensus to change Bay of Plenty and Taranaki. The discussion of Gisborne Region has been relisted with fresh proposals: see here. There was no consensus on Auckland or Wellington for now, but they should probably be discussed individually in the future. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:15, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Mi-Sex article[edit]

Anyone who remembers the Satellite Spies band-name holy-war might get a bit of déjà vu if they check the editing history of Mi-Sex. After a bunch of edits, mostly from one editor, about half the article now appears to deal with arguments in the last few years of who owns the band name (thirty or so years after the band last had anything even remotely resembling a hit single). Page protection might help but semi-protection won't - there is an IP editor cleaning up borderline BLP violations (and whose cleaning up has itself just been reverted). I am sorely tempted to revert the article back to the last reasonably encyclopaedic version ([3] or thereabouts) but have little hope that this would achieve results and don't have time to get into a protracted debate with either of the parties. Daveosaurus (talk) 07:23, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Reverted latest edits and requested full protection. If this can't be resolved on the talk page then it may be necessary to make more severe measures. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 08:17, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
And he's back [4] Can somebody with more diplomatic skills than myself (that's probably everybody else here) please make contact and steer him away from the brink? Cheers. Daveosaurus (talk) 06:22, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Surely a Sock investigation would conclude that Kevin Stanton (mi-sex) is a sock of the currently indefinitely banned user Rock Attire Mi-Sex? DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 07:40, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Probably the same user I agree (blocked not banned I think?) but I was hoping someone could politely but firmly explain COI, NLT, BLP etc. to him after the last false start. Cheers. Daveosaurus (talk) 08:13, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject New Zealand/Requested articles/New Zealand academic biographies[edit]

I have started a bit of a push to increase the depth and breadth of our coverage of academics and researchers, with diversity being a key issue. I've been trying to attract new editors on social media to write some of these, but don't let that stop you all from jumping in. Stuartyeates (talk) 20:56, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

West Coast Region requested move discussion[edit]

One in a series for the NZ regions: see here. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:30, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

A related discussion on renaming the West Coast Region categories is now here. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:12, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
The discussion is currently around whether it should be "in the West Coast" or "on the West Coast". Nurg (talk) 09:40, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Canterbury Region requested move discussion[edit]

We're starting to see some strong consensus decisions in these discussions. The next one to be discussed is Canterbury: see here. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:36, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Southland Region requested move discussion[edit]

Southland Region article name being discussed here. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:54, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Northland Region requested move discussion[edit]

Northland Region article name being discussed here. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:35, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Korotangi Paki[edit]

Korotangi Paki is the son of the current Māori King Tuheitia Paki, and he was discharged without conviction yesterday because a conviction would likely ruin his chances of replacing his father in due course. See Anger over discharge for Maori King's son. I and a couple of other people have removed a biased summary of this from the article on Tuheitia, and I have semi-protected this article to prevent it from being added again. I have also removed a more neutral summary at Māori King Movement by Claudia, but she has reinstated it.

I'd like some feedback on whether we should be covering this on Wikipedia, and if so, in which article. Korotangi is probably not notable until such point as he is elected to the position of Māori King, and this is not a certainty as the position is not in theory heritable, although in practice it appears to be.-gadfium 06:55, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree the material on Korotangi Paki is not relevant to the article. It is poorly written, not even naming this person, and is speculative about his future notability. It seems to be just an attempt at a smear campaign. I'm going to remove it and it should not be included again unless there is consensus on its inclusion. BlackCab (TALK) 07:21, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
Keep it out. Cheap attempt at guilt-by-association. Claudia's excuse for including it is that he is "the next inline" - except he isn't necessarily, nor even likely; per his father's article, his older brother Whatumoana has acted in their father's stead while he is indisposed. Incidentally, in the same day's reportage, I notice this much more serious crime: [5] which rates no mention at all here. Daveosaurus (talk) 07:48, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
This is classic WP:1E stuff, keep it out. Stuartyeates (talk) 08:17, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
If there is significant media coverage about an event that also consistently mentions Tuheitia Paki, I don't see how we could argue that it does not belong into his article. The article can't become unbalanced, of course, but Wikipedia isn't a gatekeeper for bad (family) news. Schwede66 17:02, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
If you feel strongly about this, you're welcome to escalate this to WP:BLP/N, but I believe I know what the answer will be. Stuartyeates (talk) 22:42, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
It's nowhere near my area of interest. I've said my piece; that's enough. Schwede66 04:09, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Thankyou Gadfium for drawing this discussion to my attention. Re being "next inline" -this is what the Times reported. They were talking to Tuku Morgan,the kings spokesperson at he time so Im guessing he said it. If Tuku says it then its going to happen. The new apology makes it very clear that the king does not condone Korotangi's attitudes or his behaviour. It is extremely rare for the king to speak in public or issue a statement -the last time was about 2 years ago when he defended his right as Maori king to a large expense account,extensive paid travel and a new Mercedes car, when he was under pressure to defend his expenditure in the parliament when many Tainui people are poor or unemployed. Is Wiki now only for "good news"? This is a serious issue for we Maori people,especially in the Waikato. Removing information that reflects badly on an organization is censorship. Clearly it is a significant issue if one of Nz's main daily newspapers(and the one that serves the Tainui area) devotes 95% of the front page(with 3 pictures) a on a Saturday to it.Claudia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 (talk) 00:56, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

None of which makes it suitable for Wikipedia. Go and read WP:NOTNEWS and also the section following it on the page "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information". This is nothing to do with censorship, it is everything to do with working towards a quality encyclopaedia, and the material you submit is not up to that standard. If you want a forum where you can write your own version of NZ history go and get yourself a blog. Daveosaurus (talk) 03:17, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Similar content has been added to Māori King Movement where it would appear to be equally irrelevant. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 01:02, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

I have just checked and the nonsense is gone again. It should not be reinstated until it reaches a version which gains support from a consensus of editors. Daveosaurus (talk) 03:17, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

"on the West Coast" or "in the West Coast"[edit]

There is a proposal to rename Category:Rugby league players on the West Coast, New Zealand by club to Category:Rugby league players in the West Coast, New Zealand by club and another similar case at Categories for discussion. Nurg (talk) 11:24, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Most editors who have this notice board on their watchlist would also be subscribed to Article alerts. Can I suggest that category pages and templates get tagged with {{WPNZ}} on their talk pages? That way, these issues would always show up on the article alerts, as the bot searches for WPNZ. Thus, issues like these would always come to the attention of a good number of Kiwi editors without the need for special notifications like this one. I've tagged this particular category page. Schwede66 21:23, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Graham Reid[edit]

I'm not sure if this is the correct place to raise the idea, but does anyone feel able to write an article on the author, music critic, broadcaster and music educator Graham Reid? I'm English, and Australian-based, so I can't say his name means much to me, but just recently I've come across him quite a bit when researching for (non-NZ) music articles. From what I can see online, Reid meets the requirements regarding notability; his bio certainly seems impressive on his own website, Elsewhere. I almost feel embarrassed to list the following hits, among you locals(!), but here are some things that seem to support his standing re notability:

He's been the NZ contributor for Billboard magazine, a travel author (published by Random House), winner of a number of Qantas Media Awards … Perhaps I'm missing something, but I'm really surprised we don't already have a page for him. (Graham Reid (writer) is someone else.) I'm particularly interested in some of the music articles on Elsewhere, btw, but figure it would be good to first ensure he's established in his own right on the encyclopaedia. Any thoughts … any takers? JG66 (talk) 09:15, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes. He is one of New Zealand's best-known music journalists (alongside Dylan Taite). Its a shame most of his older writing for the Herald isn't currently on-line.Haminoon (talk) 09:42, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, that's the impression I'd got – "one of New Zealand's best-known music journalists" – but can we get anything RS that says that? I don't mind getting the ball rolling with the article, if no one else will. Should the title be Graham Reid (music critic and writer), do you think? JG66 (talk) 14:39, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
I'll have a look. I think Graham Reid (journalist) would be best as journalism is what he is mostly known for. Haminoon (talk) 00:18, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Well, as you can see from the blue link, I've made a start … JG66 (talk) 11:40, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

MANA or Mana Movement[edit]

I am involved in a discussion at Talk:Internet Party and MANA Movement on how this word should be capitalised. Input from other editors would be appreciated. Ground Zero | t 17:23, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

I have proposed to rename this article at Talk:Internet_Party_and_MANA_Movement. Ground Zero | t 15:46, 26 August 2014 (UTC)