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Violating uses have been removed. -- ToshioYamaguchi 08:38, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
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I have a feeling that second image on the election page is a non-free derivative work (Even though its on commons, claimed to be an original work). Both agree that both images are not needed in the decorative fashion they are used in. --MASEM (t) 19:21, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
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Original issue resolved, if other issues persist feel free to open a new request Werieth (talk) 13:51, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
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It's used in five articles, but only has a non-free use rationale for one of them. It seems to violate NFCC 10c. David1217What I've done 20:33, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Interestingly, the image appears to violate Microsoft's permission. See {{Non-free Microsoft screenshot}}, in particular #5 where it says "Do not use screen shots that contain an image of an identifiable individual." This image contains 9 identifiable individuals. I'm not saying we can't use the image because of that; rather, that using {{Non-free Microsoft screenshot}} as the license is most likely inappropriate, and {{Non-free software screenshot}} would be a preferable license. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:05, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
I wonder if MS is trying to cover the issue of personality rights with that requirement. That said, are any of the people in that shot "recognizable"? I mean, I'm sure we spend enough time, someone can name who they are, but we're not talking about an easily-identified person like a celeb or politician. (Also, I wonder how other sites get around that then since I've seen that Metro-style used all over the 'net for Xbox and Windows Phone reviews). As to the uses, I think that if rationales were added they could be justified (given the dramatic shift the interface has over past iterations, its use in History of Microsoft Windows and Start Menu would make sense, in addition to of course the basic allowance at Windows 8. I'd be iffy for the Metro article since there's already one of the phone with the similar interface. --MASEM (t) 21:24, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
I have a different read on it; that identifiable means if a person's features are clear enough to be recognizable, not whether they are a celebrity or not. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:42, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Yea, I don't know for sure, but I would definitely play it safe to find an screenshot without the face images (if one can be had...) --MASEM (t) 22:24, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
On Commons, people generally seem to slap Commons:Template:Personality rights on photos if you see the face of a person, although I suppose you could sometimes tell who the person is even without seeing the face. I'd say that these people are identifiable: if you know the people on the photos, you'll be able to see that they are the ones on the photos. In some cases, e.g. File:11-05-19-landtag-thueringen-making-of-01.jpg, you have to zoom in quite a lot in order to tell that the people are identifiable. Another thing: "Do not use screen shots that contain third-party content." Were all photos taken by Microsoft? --Stefan2 (talk) 23:51, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
(Unindent) I have uploaded a new version of the image without the profile image of an individual. (I would think the person in the News tile cannot be identified due to his face cover). This is the default Start menu experience on a PC running Windows 8. This means that it is also different from the three-tile width layout seen on a tablet running Windows 8. I also feel that this is more encyclopedic, as it represents better a Desktop system experience, being more of a reference system of Windows 8. Please advise on whether the non-free media data has to be updated as well. Optakeover(Talk) 05:17, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
I have uploaded my third version with definitely no identifiable faces. Sorry for the repeated uploads, I am just trying to make sure there are no loopholes. Optakeover(Talk) 05:28, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
I have just uploaded a fourth version with no third-party material. I'm not sure how far we can push the interpretation of the clauses in the Microsoft's conditions, so please advise. Optakeover(Talk) 05:38, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Well, the main issue is not what the image contains, but how it is used. --Stefan2 (talk) 13:26, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
That's correct. But fair-use rationales are easy to write. The guidelines on the use of non-free images doesn't say the limit of the number of articles the image is used on, though I assume that it should preferably be a small number of articles only. But if there are missing fair-use rationales for the respective articles, I don't think that it is a major problem requiring that the image be removed, for example. But since personality rights were brought up, I think it made sense to mention about it. I suggest that the revision of the image at [1] should be used, since you don't seem to have any worries about third-party material used on the image (my concern is the info on the Market tile, which is pulled from syndicated news sources, and the travel tile). If you think it is okay, I will upload a completely new image this revision, with an even smaller res (now 800*450, going for 600*?), and I'll write the fair-use rationales for all five articles. Optakeover(Talk) 14:46, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Uploading a width 600px version. I think it's small enough, it's the threshold of readability of the small text. Optakeover(Talk) 15:04, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
That's still probably too large (you can always call out what the text is on the image description page). A 1/4-size (1/2 in each direction) would do the same job.
The issue that started this was the 5 uses, which are, History of Microsoft Windows, Metro (design language), Microsoft Windows, Start menu, and Windows 8. That seems too many for a screenshot of an OS. It is reasonable in Windows 8 (btw, should that not be "Microsoft Windows 8" per the same language that the Microsoft license requires for images?) as a screenshot of the OS. It is reasonable in eitherHistory of Microsoft Windows or Microsoft Windows but not both. There are other ways to display the Metro style, and similarly, I'm not seeing a need on Start Menu (particularly when there is the History article, where I think the image is second-best suited on). --MASEM (t) 15:11, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
"The largest dimension should be at most around 300–400px." The largest dimension is currently 600 pixels, which is much more than "300–400px".
"The resolution should approximately fit the intended use in the article." The purpose is to show small images in articles, the largest of them being 300 x 169 pixels. --Stefan2 (talk) 15:16, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
(Unindent) Well, my opinion is that the text of the tiles should be at least barely visible as it provides some context on the kind of features available on Windows 8's Modern interface. Understood on image size. I will resize it as accordingly. As for the number of pages it is used on, I am of the opinion that the image could probably be removed from History of Microsoft Windows, but I think the rest should stay, especially on Microsoft Windows. I feel it is important in Start Menu as it will illustrate how it is different in this version as compared to the traditional Start Button and Menu, and in Microsoft Windows for the same reason, as the article is about Windows, and the image is about a major revision to Windows.
As for question about the article name being "Microsoft Windows 8" instead of "Windows 8", because it's a fair use rationale for a specific article and that specific article's name is Windows 8, it passes Wikipedia's FUR. The only concern is with the article's name itself, as according to the license conditions, the use of Microsoft's trademarks must conform to their guidelines of their use. However, according to [2], all is good. In the page,
Properly Identify Windows Products and the list of Microsoft products in the list doesn't mean that all names used in Wikipedia must be used similar to the names as written in the list (e.g. Windows XP operating system, as opposed to just Windows XP), as the list is just meant to give an example of the products covered by the guidelines of the page. But,
Do Not Shorten, Abbreviate, or Create Acronyms for the Windows Trademark states that names shouldn't be shortened, like Windows8, Win8 or W8. Since Windows 8 is the name of the article, I think that it passes. Optakeover(Talk) 15:31, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
I have uploaded a completely new image, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Windows_8_Start_Screen.png to further comply with Microsoft's use of trademarks, as the previous file name didn't have capitalized letters for Start Screen. Resolution now conforms to rule of thumb, but use on articles have not been ironed out yet. Image descriptions, NFURs and related templates has been copied over to the new image. Optakeover(Talk) 15:48, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
First as a piece of advice, you can always upload a new image that is designed to replace an old image over the over image. (If you go near the bottom of the file page, there's a "Upload a new version of this file"; it will not overright the licensing/rationale, and simply replace the existing uses.
Copying over rationales like you did to satisify NFCC#10c is reasonable to start, but per NFCC#8, it is very difficult to accept that the image is being used for the same purpose on all 5 pages, and we would reasonably expect a more detailed rationale for each. For example, its use at Windows 8 is basically to demonstrate the appearance of the software, presumably as a lead/infobox image, which is generally accepted for an article on software. But its use at something like the Metro design is different - it's not to show W8, but to show how the Metro design is structured, with boxes and readable text. This is where the question of "do we really need this image 5 times" is being asked. Remember that we're seeking minimal use (via NFCC#3a) so we want to be sure its being used where it is absolutely necessary, and only on those pages. --MASEM (t) 16:09, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Okay. In that case, I'd like to ask for consensus regarding which specific articles the image should only be used on. I'm tired now and I'm nursing a headache, so I'm done for the night. I'm still okay having it on four pages: Windows 8, Microsoft Windows 8, Metro (design language) and Start Menu but if anyone objects, I won't fight it, because I think I'm not too picky on the article selection already. But once we do reach a consensus, I would appreciate if someone would edit the fair-use rationales, do the removal of the images on the articles to be excluded, and to delete the deprecated image. Oh, and I uploaded a completely new image because I realize I couldn't change the file name. I'm not sure if I made a mistake on that, but that's what I gathered when I tried to do so. I uploaded a new image to coincide with Microsoft's guidelines for trademarks, as I felt a properly capitalized Start Screen is compliant. Optakeover(Talk) 16:18, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
An administrator or file-mover could have moved the file to the new name. Please see WP:MOF for instructions on how to request a file be moved. I have nominated the lower-case version File:Windows 8 start screen.png for deletion {{db-f5}}. -- Dianna (talk) 23:32, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
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resolved Werieth (talk) 14:01, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
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I think it's not free but with a proper rationale could be justified. There's a single Open Championship each year and the use of the logo helps establish the context for the article in each case. (Too busy at the moment myself.) Grandiose(me, talk, contribs) 17:07, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Removed from all but main article per WP:NFC#UUI #14. Werieth (talk) 14:37, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
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Their current usage appears to violate WP:NFCC #3 and #8 and WP:NFG. RJaguar3 | u | t 14:38, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
The current logo is always acceptable (though the gallery use is not needed). There's a current discussion about historical logos at WP:VPP that would relate to the second logo. But yea, there's no gallery need here. --MASEM (t) 14:57, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
The logo depicted in File:Whitecastle.png might be in the public domain depending on whether the copyright expired before the enaction of the Copyright Act of 1976 or not and whether the intial copyright had been renewed or not. -- ToshioYamaguchi 15:04, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
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Some kept, some removed, Please see a lengthy summary at the bottom. --B (talk) 21:43, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
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These images are used in Roy Lichtenstein and other articles whose subjects are not mainly images themselves. I wonder whether rationales are valid and whether commentaries are sufficient enough to justify use of these images. --George Ho (talk) 12:49, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Lichtenstein is an important 20th century artist and it is imperative to have the few images used in the biographical article, to educate readers as to what those visual artworks look like...Modernist (talk) 12:53, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
It is completely reasonable to use a few (a few) NFC images for an artist as representatives of their work, as long as the specific examples are called out as demonstrating why they are examples (the work the artist is most noted for? etc.) This is no different than providing a few samples of music for a musician/band as representing their work. How many is allowed, its hard to say, however. --MASEM (t) 12:56, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Is use of Bedroom at Arles in Lichtenstein article appropiate and sufficient? --George Ho (talk) 13:01, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Absolutely not; Bedroom at Arles does not fully represent Lichtenstein's career - leaving out his most famous pieces that relate to Pop Art. I agree with User:Masem however; we've tried to limit the imagery there to 3 important paintings demonstrating his pioneering work in both pop art and appropriation, and we have included 1 industrial commission done late in his career...Modernist (talk) 13:06, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
I was referring to Lichtenstein's work actually. At is Lichtenstein's; In is van Gogh's. By the way, I'm withdrawing review on one image. --George Ho (talk) 13:17, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
(ec) The use of Bedroom could be a bit stronger, but the text does describe how he applied his style to famous artists, with that being one example against the Van Gogh, so edging on allowance there is fine. (Drowning Girl + Wham, no question that they are well-discussed). Again, we don't use numbers, but 4 non-frees on an artist of this many works and of this fame seems completely reasonable. And no, I'm not saying "4 images" is a number test to apply elsewhere. It just "feels" right given the point of NFCC in balance with whom the artist is. --MASEM (t) 13:08, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Once again I agree...Modernist (talk) 13:13, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Now that Lichtenstein article is already reviewed and resolved, and that Arles image has passed NFCC, let's discuss other images that are used in non-Lichtenstein articles, shall we? --George Ho (talk) 13:19, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
The use of Whaam! at History_of_painting#Pop_art seems reasonable, since the text describes the relation of the image to a specific comic-book panel (a predominantly visual medium) and describes how it represents "recognizable imagery". All these visual characteristics are best understood through images rather than text.
Drowning Girl: - at Pop art is the only image at the "United States" section. Maybe any one of his works could be used there, but this one is mentioned in text and references to " thick outlines, bold colors and Ben-Day dots to represent certain colors, as if created by photographic reproduction" require an image to illustrate them for reasonable understanding.
- at Western painting#Pop_art. Here is not essential as there are three other images for por art; although is the only one representing comic-book style and again the line "thick outlines, bold colors and Ben-Day dots to represent certain colors" is mentioned. I don't think it's against NFCC#3a, and it certainly passes NFCC#8.
Closing comment - It isn't surprising this hasn't been closed after nearly a year - eight different uses of two images are hard to consider together. I should, by way of preface, remind everyone that WP:NFC#UUI #6 offers as an example of unacceptable use, "An image to illustrate an article passage about the image, if the image has its own article (in which case the image may be described and a link provided to the article about the image)." So there is necessarily a high hurdle that must be reached for both images as they are both the subject of their own articles. Considering each one separately, here is what I am seeing based on the above discussion:
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Closing as Delete; the delete !votes give stronger policy based rationales than the keep votes. My opinion: There's nothing in this image that cannot be described in words alone. --Dianna (talk) 19:08, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
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Not sure if this meets the NFCC. Forgive me for not saying which criterion specifically, but I'm not entirely familiar with the rules. David1217What I've done 15:26, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
It would fail NFCC#8 - while the event ccan't be recreated, it's not a difficult scene (a baseball field littered with trash) to envision, and thus fails NFCC#8. --MASEM (t) 15:40, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
Keep Passes NFCC#8 (Contextual significance), as a historic, unrecreatible, example of the application of the Infield fly rule. --GrapedApe (talk) 16:41, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
Uh, how exactly does it show that? There's not a single player or umpire in the shot. --MASEM (t) 19:10, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
Keep; the rationale needs to be improved a bit, but the image needs to stay. Reality check; this event can not be recreated, and the fact of the field being so littered with an obviously full stadium in attendance is a very remarkable event in baseball history that text alone can not convey. As this search of Google News shows, the event is highly significant, and the image is directly relevant to the prose in which it is displayed. The overly strict interpretation of NFCC policy being attempted here is absurd on the face of it when taken in context of the mass use of non-free images elsewhere. I don't mean to advocate a WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS argument, but rather that our common practice is not anywhere near so restrictive that we can't allow this image. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:33, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
You know much better than this, Hammersoft. --MASEM (t) 15:03, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
No, I simply have a differing opinion than yours. There's no crime in that. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:48, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
Honest question I'm still somewhat of a n00b on NFCC, but does the fact that the following hook was just on the front page through DYK mean anything to the event's significance? – Muboshgu (talk) 05:15, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
As for Infield fly rule, it has absolutely no business there. You don't need to be an NFCC expert to see that's a WP:COATRACK. – Muboshgu (talk) 05:15, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
Keep Concur with Hammersoft on this one. Buffs (talk) 16:30, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
Keep at 2012 National League Wild Card Game where it's more relevant (providing a NFCC#10c rationale), per WP:NFCC#8 and Hammersoft, as illustrating a significant, non-repeatable event. Wikilink the text "fans began throwing plastic bottles and other debris onto the field" at Infield fly rule#2012 National League Wild Card Playoff to inform readers that there's relevant content to see by following the link. Diego (talk) 11:11, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
I do not think that the use of this image in 2012 National League Wild Card Game satisfies NFCC#8. Even if the image were removed, the article would still be understandable. -- ToshioYamaguchi 11:23, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
The criterion for NFCC#8 is not that "you can understand what's written without the image", is that the image's omission hampers it because the image increase readers' understanding. The image describes the public's reaction better than a thousand words; if you've never seen a littered sports field, you wouldn't understand from text alone how people can quickly make it unplayable. Diego (talk) 11:39, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
NFCC#8 says a non-free image can only be used if it's omission would be detrimental to a readers understanding of the article. My opinion is that even without the image, the article would still be understandable. But well, that's of course just my opinion and others are free to disagree with me. If the consensus is to keep the image, then I will accept that. -- ToshioYamaguchi 11:46, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
It is literally a picture of trash on a stadium's infield. There, I just replaced it with free text. End of story, the image fails NFCC#1. (This is not saying that the fact that the trash disrupted the game isn't important to state in the article, but it does not need to be illustrated. Readers are smarter than that.) --MASEM (t) 14:31, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
Yes, but it's the trash in the stadium that was on October 5 2012 at Turner Field as reported by reliable sources; thus making it significant per NFCC#8. Readers from a different culture that have never been in a stadium and never have seen spectators throwing things at the field can get information from that view that is not available in your sentence and is relevant to what happened that day; Wikipedia should not be written with a western culture bias. Images that are important to show how something happened are the reason why the exemption doctrine policy was created. Diego (talk) 16:01, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
All ten points of NFCC have to be met. I agree that NFCC#8 is (at least in part) met because the effect of debris on the field is discussed. But NFCC#1, free replacement, is just as important, and there is nothing "special" about that image that the text line "A baseball infield covered with trash thrown by fans" cannot replace. Note that there's nothing in that shot that 1) identifies the field clearly as Turner Field (I'm sure fans can tell but not the average layreader) and 2) identifies it as from a baseball game (there's a line marker and some grass and dirt but that could be a football field, for example). --MASEM (t) 16:19, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
But we know for sure that the images come from the TV broadcast as in happened. This allow readers to verify that the spectators' reaction would necessarily stop the game, by estimating how much garbage reached the field. The purpose to include images in Wikipedia is not only to say what happened (which can always be explained in text) but how. To serve that verifiability purpose, we would require a reliable source describing the density of debris that was enough to stop the game - wait we have one, it's the broadcast image. Diego (talk) 16:45, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
I do not disagree that there is a difference between, say, if one wrapper landed on the field and temporarily stopped the game, and a dense field of debris that took much longer to clear, the latter being more of interest to the game's notability. But, importantly, there are plenty of other sources that state that it took 18 minutes to clear the field before play could resume after the game (eg here), and it doesn't take much to envision how much debris cluttered the field that required an 18 minute cleanup job, in light of the statement "...while angry fans pelted the field with cups, bottles and other debris." In other words, we can show that was a trash-covered field via free text; the screenshot is not the only source that explains this. NFCC#1 still fails. --MASEM (t) 16:52, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
Comment As the original uploader, I would have appreciated of being informed both of this discussion and the image's removal from the page for Infield fly rule. I'm disappointed that this is the first I'm hearing of this. Regarding its former use on the page infield fly rule, I had a talk page discussion regarding it, and it was agreed that it was notable in the context of fan reaction in regard to the reaction by fans of the perceived misapplication of the rule. ProfessorTofty (talk) 22:23, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Question Should this be closed as keep? -- ToshioYamaguchi 13:37, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
It's an outright failure to meet NFCC. None of the arguments above show how NFCC#1 is met (how the image can be replaced by free text of a "debris-ridden field"). --MASEM (t) 13:55, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
I guess you mean how the image cannot be replaced by free text of a "debris-ridden field"? I agree that the use is a failure of NFCC#1. -- ToshioYamaguchi 14:59, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
There's been plenty of discussion about removing it from the infield fly rule article (and it has), but precious little about its use in 2012 National League Wild Card Game. I don't see it as out of line there. There's certainly no consensus to remove it from there. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:05, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Does there need to be a consensus for removal? WP:NFCCE only explicitly says an image can be removed if it is not in compliance with 10c (which this is, so you might be correct). Btw, the funny thing is that I made this edit for it to explicitly say so. -- ToshioYamaguchi 15:34, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
Let's put it this way. I wouldn't argue that this discussion lacks consensus to close (now with the image gone from infield fly rule), but the next step would be immediately to send this to FFD for more stringent review since now its only use at the specific article about the game is in question. However, I would also consider pulling an uninvolved admin to review this discussion in light of policy to make a final decision. --MASEM (t) 15:38, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
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Closing this. A lot of Oldenburg's images were deleted in a DMCA takedown request last year. This particular image is currently being discussed at WP:PUF, so there is no need for a separate discussion here. --Stefan2 (talk) 19:35, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
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Claes Oldenburg seems to have a thing about copyright. However, this photo of a 3D object looks to have fair use under US law for educational purposes. Possibly it could be reduced in size a bit, but it is OK with the current tagging.--♦IanMacM♦(talk to me) 13:56, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
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As a reminder, WP:NFC#UUI #6 offers as an example of unacceptable use, "An image to illustrate an article passage about the image, if the image has its own article (in which case the image may be described and a link provided to the article about the image)." So if you feel it would be useful, you can link to Nude (Charis, Santa Monica) from any article where such a link would be appropriate without embedding the image in additional articles. The removal from Nude photography as discussed below is correct based on WP:NFCC#1 and is affirmed. Though obviously, as I believe FigureArtist was getting at, we don't want to use unencyclopedic self-porn photos in an article like this, there is nude photography for which the copyright has expired and there are even modern photographers who have released their work under acceptable licenses. Nobody has offered a reason that this photo represented a unique aspect of nude photography necessary to the user's understanding that could not be fulfilled by another image. There is less discussion on this image's use in Charis Wilson - the article about the model for this photograph. There seems to be no strong opinions either and postdlf correctly points out that the image is discussed at length in this article and the image seems appropriate. Kept --B (talk) 22:15, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
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I believe that this image's use on the Nude photography article violates the non-free content criteria. First, to address criterion #1: there are plenty of free nude photos we could use without having to resort to using a copyrighted one. Second, to address criterion #8: there's no contextual significance here. The image's absence would not significantly detract from the educational value of the article.
Finally, there's this passage, from WP:NFC#UULP: "An image to illustrate an article passage about the image, if the image has its own article (in which case the image may be described and a link provided to the article about the image)". Nude (Charis, Santa Monica) is an article about the photo, so it seems like that's the only article that should display the image.
(And in light of that passage, I'm also concerned about this photo's use on the Charis Wilson article, which is about the subject of the photo.)
There's a pretty lengthy rationale regarding its use in the Wilson article and why it is integral to that subject. I don't see cause for concern there.
I agree that it's not doing much in nude photography, at least given the current state of the article (further expansion may change that), and that article already includes public domain (pre 1923) examples, of which there are many more in existence. postdlf (talk) 17:20, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
My concern with the Wilson article has nothing to do with the quality of the rationale, and entirely to do with the passage I quoted from WP:NFC. (There's also a slight question of relevance; since the image doesn't show Ms. Wilson's face, it doesn't do much to illustrate her biography.) PowersT 18:24, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
It isn't included to show what she looked like, but to illustrate the reason why she is notable. It is unquestionably the most iconic image of her work with Weston, which is why it (and not a face shot of her) accompanied most media reports of her death. Colloquially, I think it serves pretty much the same function as a book cover does in an article on that book—a reader will see that and go, "oh yeah, that photograph." There's no free substitute for that that would have anywhere near the relevance. postdlf (talk) 19:09, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
So the image is "Nude (Charis, Santa Monica)" but isn't in use on Nude (Charis, Santa Monica) but is elsewhere? On that basis, I'm afraid it ought to be used on Nude (Charis, Santa Monica) but not elsewhere. The guideline is there because you can link to the article about it, where they can seen the photograph, rather than using the image itself. Thus, as I understand it, it is a straightforward application of the principle. Grandiose(me, talk, contribs) 20:03, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
The separate article on the photograph didn't exist at the time I added this to the biographical article. Yes, Grandiose, that is the current policy language; I don't agree with it, but that's apparently the way it is. So according to that, it should be moved to the article on the photograph (which an editor apparently removed it from because it was lacking a NFUR for that article, rather than writing a rather obvious NFUR) and that article merely linked to in the biographical article. A larger version should be uploaded as well. postdlf (talk) 20:20, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
I am trying to improve the Nude photography article as an artist and photographer. The topic of the article should now be clear, it is photography of the human figure as a fine art genre, not just photos of naked people, so the statement "there are plenty of free nude photos" is mistaken. Any visual arts article needs an illustration within the article, not just a link, and it would have to be one with a fair use rationale, since the medium was not established as a fine art until after 1923. The very early Stieglitz in the article is hardly sufficient, given its poor quality. The 19th century photo is "French Postcard" quality, but illustrates that period. I have tried to expand the article to show Edward Weston's significance to the genre, but I am not an historian.FigureArtist (talk) 21:21, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
I found a better, and historically more important photo by Stieglitz, one of Georgia O'Keeffe pre-1923; but I continue to maintain that the article needs some example that is more recent, and the Weston is the only image currently available.FigureArtist (talk) 05:12, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
If we have a PD photo for historic value, and can find a freely licensed artistic nude of more recent vintage for a modern take, then I should think that sufficient. It certainly becomes much harder in that situation to justify violating copyright. PowersT 17:03, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
Restored: How can visual arts articles be complete without the tiniest thumbnails to illustrate the modern era?FigureArtist (talk) 16:33, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
Find someone to donate a free image. The discussion here is clearly against having such fair-use images. I remember uploading a nude by an amateur photographer about a year ago. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:48, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
Anyone who thinks that an amateur photo can be used to illustrate an article on Fine Art should not be making any decisions regarding the subject. When policy issues stray into matters of essential content on the arts, the verbally talented should defer to the visually intelligent.FigureArtist (talk) 00:33, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to agree here with FigureArtist, in that the article is not about "photographing people in the nude" which could be done by free amateur photos, but "nude photograph as an art genre" which is documented. While I won't comment on necessarily this specific photo (in light of the other discussion, in which a question of whether free acclaimed nude photos might be better replacement for non-free ones), it is clear that we can't use amateur photos for the same discussion. --MASEM (t) 00:48, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
That was an example if (s)he does not like the replacement I added, which is a) free and b) from a noted photographer. What is perfectly clear is that the image is not discussed in this article at all but used as an example. For this use there are numerous free images which could replace it. As for whether or not nude photography as an article should be limited to "fine" art (which is inherently subjective anyways), that is an issue for the article's talk page. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:52, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
I will agree that example of "fine art" nude photography, if they are going to be non-free, need discussion in the text - again refering to the section below on the Nude (art) page, if there was a fundamental shift in nude photography post-1923 that only non-free fine art examples could demonstrate, we would need discussion of that change in the text to even considering allowing it. Now, from that section below, there is an argument that nude art (photography or painting) has come to ignore body shape, eg allowing more obese models to pose, a change in the mid-20th century. Great, but lets source that before include a non-free example of that. --MASEM (t) 01:13, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
The distinction between Fine Art and amateur efforts is not "subjective" any more than any other professional judgement. As in NPOV there is no claim to objectivity, but the necessity of providing citations for opinions. I make supported statements regarding the establishment of photography as a fine art medium only in the post-1923 era, and the place of Edward Weston's work in that history. Stating that another photo is 'just as good' merely because it was an 'image of the day' on WP is subjective. I removed that image since (1) the status of the photographer, Arnold Genthe, who did mainly glamour portraits of movie stars and other famous people, has no comparison to Edward Weston called "one of the most innovative and influential American photographers" in our own article. (2) The Genthe photo is a recreation somewhere between 1911 and 1942 of a process used mainly at the turn of the 20th century. Technically interesting, but meaningless in the history of Fine Art.FigureArtist (talk) 01:51, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
"The distinction between Fine Art and amateur efforts is not "subjective" any more than any other professional judgement." - This coming from a field known for having artists pass off work by monkeys as their own (to critical acclaim). Wine tasting is another similar "professional" field in which experts have been repeatedly bamboozled.
As for the image, no image is better than a fair use image. If it's out, I have no issue with the article. If it must be in, be sure to provide contextual significance per NFCC #8 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:31, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
Do you intend to state that individual conduct can be taken as a valid characterization of an entire field of practice and study? I have been an artist for more than forty years, and do not know this monkey story. I will take it as an urban legend unless a source is given. (What wine tasting has to do with this discussion I cannot imagine.)
No image is better than a bad image, but the article remains crippled without some example of the topic, which did not exist until the 1930's, as I have said above.FigureArtist (talk) 03:24, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
No image is acceptable. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:31, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
There have been isolated hoaxes in most disciplines, including the hard sciences. FigureArtist (talk) 05:15, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
The policy on original images states: "Original images created by a Wikipedian are not considered original research, so long as they do not illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments, the core reason behind the NOR policy". This would exclude uploaded images as illustrations for visual art articles, since claiming the status of art would be original research unless supported by a citation that the image has passed some test, such as being in an art museum. The test I propose for the article Nude Photography is that the image or the photographer has their own article in WP which substantiates their status. All of the photographers mentioned in this article have their own biographical articles. If anyone knows of a free image of a nude photograph by any photographer currently in WP as an art photographer (not fashion, glamour, porn, or other commercial work), then it would pass the test. It would appear that the NFCC policy is being strictly enforced for biographies of photographers since their articles rarely have any of the artist's own work. So the consensus is that WP's converge of modern photography is fine without photographs, the non-free content policy being more important?FigureArtist (talk) 14:23, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Of course not. When a non-free copy of a photography is contextually relevant to the topic, it serves an educational purpose and it cannot be replaced by a free version, the NFC policy has always allowed us to have it. Though to build consensus that the image is educational, it's helpful to provide reliable sources explaining the context in which the photography is discussed in the article. Diego (talk) 11:06, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
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Animated game GIFs?
Both deleted. The game being abandonware does not matter for our fair use policies - it's still copyrighted even if nobody is actively enforcing that copyright. There seems to be general agreement that this is not appropriate fair use. --B (talk) 22:34, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
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These animated GIFs directly capture animations and cutscenes from the above game. NFCC is pretty clear about non-free screenshots, but seems to me to lean heavily against animated non-free anything. In any case, these animations are not just a few seconds, but are fully 10 seconds long, and depict some subscenes in their entirety. The game is out of production and informally considered "abandonware", if that matters. Discuss?. --Lexein (talk) 18:51, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
Animated GIFs are fine - I would think of equating them with video files since they are "multiple screens". To that extent , however, they should not be very long or comprise all the animation elements. And importantly, the computer animation itself needs to be discussed. For example, one example that I believe is accepted use is File:Cabanela dance.gif used on Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective as the animation style was critically praised - the GIF is one small animation sequence out of several for that character, ~5 seconds long, so that's all appropriate. GIF animations of near-entire cutscenes? Probably not, and even if the game is abandonware, someone owns the copyright or we have to have explicit notice it was put to public domain. --MASEM (t) 19:04, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
Ah - I'm seeing no discussion by RS of the animation or the cutscenes, and no mention of such critical discussion in the GIF rationales. Oh, and it's also hellaciously unsourced. I'm leaning toward keeping the cutscene one(trimmed), and use a still or two in place of the animation one, since it's semi-obvious that characters will be moving, and the field will be scrolling. I am, however, not going up against the game-articles cabal alone. --Lexein (talk) 20:33, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
The animated gifs are necessary per WP:NFCC#8. I definitely wouldn't have understood what the "Cinematic Soccer" scenes are without the comparison of the two cutscenes, and the article makes a big deal about Captain Tsubasa 5 having a different style than the predecessors. That the complete cutscene is shown is not a problem per NFCC#3b, as it's still a small part of the whole videogame, and I don't think that each cutscene has been individually copyrighted. Being abandonware is irrelevant to the discussion; a NFC rationale is still required. Diego (talk) 16:38, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
The use of File:Captain tsubasa 5 cutscenes.gif seems unnecessary. While the image caption explains what is going on, the significance to the rest of the article (or even the section this file is appearing in) is not apparent to me. I think the other image is worth keeping. A stronger integration into the article (via introduction of explicit references in the article text to the image) might be desirable. -- ToshioYamaguchi 23:39, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
Contrarily, if only one image was to be retained, I'd prefer File:Captain tsubasa 5 cutscenes.gif. It's the one that best illustrates the concept of "cinematic soccer" that seem to be an established genre in Japan (see [3]).Diego (talk) 11:45, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
The short cutscene is definitely not good enough. I wouldn't have understood the concept of Cinematic Soccer from it, I would have confused it with typical examples of cutscenes in video games, and the cutscenes in :File:Captain tsubasa 5 cutscenes.gif are not typical precisely because they last way longer than a couple seconds.Diego (talk) 12:04, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
I do not see the relevance of File:Captain tsubasa 5 cutscenes.gif in the section Captain Tsubasa 5: Hasha no Shōgō Campione#Teams. The gif seems to be misplaced there and appears to be decorative, therefore violating WP:NFCCP#8. Furthermore as someone unfamiliar with the game I find the image caption very confusing. What is a Non Fire Shot and a Golden Hand Catch? This image doesn't really increase my understanding of the article at all. -- ToshioYamaguchi 12:33, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Delete both: In the article we are told that the game differs greatly from its cinematic soccer predecessors, but we are not told what cinematic soccer means, or how this game differs from its predecessors. There's no discussion of this point, and without discussion I am unable to ascertain how the excerpts are supposed to be enlightening me. These images don't enlighten me at all because I am not told what I am looking at. Therefore the images fail non-free content requirement #8, because without this contextual material, my understanding of the topic is not increased at all. I think they also fail NFCC #1; no effort has been made to describe in words how the game differs from its predecessors, but I am pretty sure that information could be presented with words alone. -- Dianna (talk) 18:58, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
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1) False source info provided, actually sourced here; 2) Not low resolution; 3) Not specific to the subject of the article (a generic logo rather than specific to Honda's F1 team) therefore fails to identify subject of the article. User has a history of uploading unfree and flat out copyvio files, both at his present incarnation and his previous sockpuppet accounts. Pyrope 22:23, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
You know this to be a logo registered solely in Japan then? Pyrope 06:03, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
Any trademark registration is irrelevant as trademark restrictions are non-copyright restrictions and thus irrelevant for us. See Commons:Commons:Trademarks. Very simple logos are ineligible for copyright and are thus in the public domain, although different countries define "very simple" differently. --Stefan2 (talk) 11:29, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
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Havana (film)
1 deleted - this one is not even debatable - it's just a picture of the director that tells the reader nothing and is not used transformatively. #2 deleted - no argument below for keeping it and it's not even used in the section that describes the production - it's used in the cast section. #3 and #4 kept though I don't especially agree with this. There seems to be agreement below (and consent from the nominator) that these two images showing the production enhance the user's understanding. (I don't agree, but it's not my job to impose my own opinion.) --B (talk) 00:11, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
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I am questioning the use of the following files in the Havana (film).
I don't think these meet NFCC#8 "Contextual significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding."
If it is decided that though do then NFCC#3a will come into play "Minimal usage. Multiple items of non-free content are not used if one item can convey equivalent significant information."
They also have identical rationals, yet none of them meet the descroption provided. I have concerns over the source description. They all say "Digital capture from the film "Havana" (Production Featurette)." The fourth one is obviously a screen capture, but the other three are not scenes taken from the movie. They may be from a "making of" extra feature, but considering they are all appear to be copy pasted rationals then I think that might be suspect. AIRcorn(talk) 08:37, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
The rationales are the same as the screen snaps serve an identical purpose. They provide the reader an insight to the production of the film by illustrating the director on the set, the set construction, a view of the main production set and also the transformation from a constructed "street" into the identical scene in the film.
The photos enhance the article considerably and are unavailable from any open source. The justification in adding them is sound and the addition to them is very reasonable. Bwmoll3 (talk) 10:06, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
NFCC#8 is definitely met. The fact that the city should be recreated for the film because of the US Embargo is a big deal in sources and reflected in the Production section (see [4], [5]). I agree that NFCC#3a is relevant and not all images are needed; I think the best way to illustrate this is to keep image 3 to illustrate the construction of the set, and image 4 to show how it looks onscreen. I'll fix the "purpose" rationales to support this use. Diego (talk) 11:04, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Okay, I can live with two non-free ones describing the development of the set. Still not really comfortable with the sourcing for number 3 as it is definitely not a screenshot from the movie. Maybe the uploader could clarify how he got them? Not sure what is meant by they "are available from any open source" either. AIRcorn(talk) 23:19, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
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Review is requested for use in Fred Rogers only. On Fred Rogers, this image's use violates WP:NFCC #1, seeing as there are several free images already in the article that adequately illustrate the subject. RJaguar3 | u | t 19:58, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
I think it is reasonable here. The only one that is a near-equivalent replacement (considering age) is File:Fred Rogers.jpg, and there's something about how he's posed there that it is not obvious that it is Fred Rogers (eg it looks like a different person). Given that Rogers' claim to fame is pretty much MRN, I think the non-free of him with the miniature set is completely in line. --MASEM (t) 20:12, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
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Deleted as the image fails verifiability. Google image searches for both women return this photo from a variety of different locations. As we cannot be sure who it is, it is not appropriate for use here. Additionally, as Mabalu points out, this is a possibly living person and unless there is a reliable source for this person's death, it is generally considered replaceable. --B (talk) 00:35, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
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The photograph is not of Araksi Cetinyan. It is actually of Günseli Başar, the 1952 Miss Turkey and Miss Europe, who is not deceased. Images of Gunseli can be seen here, along with images of her from the Miss Europe pageants for 1952 and 1953, both showing that the photograph is of Gunseli - same hairstyle, same dress, same make-up, same face. The real Araksi is presumably one of the women in the photograph on this page - although all very pretty, none of them are similar in appearance or dress to this photograph that purports to be of her. It seems very clear cut, although there is this which identifies the image as Araksi - yet a commenter points out that it is Gunseli. It seems a clear cut case of mistaken identity here. As I understand it, we do not allow photographs of non-deceased people but User:Ronhjones has suggested there may be some justification for keeping this as it shows the subject at the time of her beauty-contest winning notability, which a more current photograph would not illustrate. Mabalu (talk) 16:48, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Comment: First you need to decide who is really in the picture:- here and here and here and here and here all say Araksi Cetinyan. I think it's going to be hard to decide. Ronhjones (Talk) 18:22, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
It seems very obvious to me, but then, my speciality is dress/fashion history, and it is clear to me that the photograph does not show a 1920s beauty queen. Everything about it screams 1950s to me. Plus, I think the Miss Universe pages are pretty conclusive, whereas all the links you show clearly have a common root - they are all based on the same article and source. The Google Image search for Gunseli provides lots of images of the very lovely Ms. Basar from sources such as this - the presence of lots of extra photographs showing the same woman identified as Gunseli is more compelling evidence to me than a single image identified as someone else. A similar search for Araksi brings up only Gunseli's image and lots of pictures who are clearly or demonstrably not Ms Cetinyan. Mabalu (talk) 18:37, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Another source here - this is a completed Ebay auction for a 1952 magazine with a photo of a double page spread devoted to Ms Basar. I know the picture is too small to see the details, but you can still tell it's the same person. Mabalu (talk) 18:45, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Let me know on my talk page when/if anything happens regarding this. Mabalu (talk) 20:28, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
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The file seems to have been deleted. --Stefan2 (talk) 18:30, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
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A scalable SVG is about a far from the "low resolution" requirement as you can get. See WP:NFC#Image resolution. There are cases where subjectivity factors in; this is not one of them, because this is the highest resolution possible. This should be replaced with a low resolution PNG. -Pete (talk) 05:18, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
We do allow non-free SVGs if they are logos of companies obtained directly from the company, but nearly always only used for logos. This is not such a case and you're right that a low res PNG must be used. --MASEM (t) 05:53, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
If I remember correctly, there is a page somewhere which says that you shouldn't include more details in an SVG file than needed for displaying the image at the intended resolution in the Wikipedia article, so SVG files sometimes do need to be reduced, if they contain too many details. This one scales perfectly at 2000 pixels, so the image quality is way too high. --Stefan2 (talk) 12:49, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
That more applies if we make an SVG ourselves to replace a poor scan or the like (I think ING bank was the example, where the lion's face was just detailed enough to make out, but I may be wrong). If the SVG is coming straight from a company for its logo (like, out of a PDF) that's ok, but here we're talking a character image. SVG is absolutely out of line here. --MASEM (t) 13:13, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
The policy page in question is WP:Image resolution. I think about 200px is enough for the intended purpose, maybe a bit more, but not much more. I agree that this should be transformed into a low-res PNG. -- ToshioYamaguchi 13:19, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Btw., the rationale needs to be improved, as the purpose stated in the rationale doesn't seem to be applicable to the specified article where the image is currently being used. -- ToshioYamaguchi 13:32, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Good catch Toshio, yes, the rationale currently refers only to cultural icon, where the file is no longer used anyway. I agree that 200px is a good size -- it looks like this. -Pete (talk) 17:21, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
UPDATE: I have uploaded as a 200px wide PNG, here. If this looks good to everyone (with the NFUR and all), I will replace it in the Mickey Mouse article. -Pete (talk) 21:57, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
SVG now replaced with PNG in article, I will delete the SVG. -Pete (talk) 22:02, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
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Agreed on both counts, though obviously one use within Ek Baap would meet requirements with proper rationale. The caption on the Ek Baap article in the second use can be applied in the infobox to serve the same purpose (id'ing the various actors). --MASEM (t) 14:41, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
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Deleted the three remaining images. (Most of these are long gone.) No meaningful argument for NFCC#8 compliance was made for either Drone or Eye of the Needle. The Alter Ego screencap had a meaningful argument, but, as Masem points out, there is no sourced commentary for this image and the situation that the image depicts - Tuvok confronting the real alien in her true form - can be covered in text. --B (talk) 13:32, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
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There are still some missing. Will list them later, if nobody else has done it then. -- ToshioYamaguchi 15:59, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Use in various Star Trek: Voyager episodes violate NFCC#8. These don't seem to fall into the type of use generally seen as acceptable under NFCI#5. -- ToshioYamaguchi 14:08, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
I've previously approached the TV project on screenshot removals on pre-2008 articles on tv episodes (read: before the Foundation Resolution was in place), and seemed to be "yea, we sorta need to flush those out" response. I note that I've been plot-editing TNG episode lately too and many of them have superficial screenshots as well, I would not be surprised to see these extended to the other Trek series. As we do have an active Star Trek project, WP:STARTREK, it may be good to get their help in pruning these out. I'll drop a note there and at the TV project about this. --MASEM (t) 17:30, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Agree, that a lot of them look superficial, but some of them could be argued to be helpful enough for the reader to warrant fair-use. Some quick examples: File:ST-VOY Caretaker.jpg, File:ST-VOY The Cloud.jpg or File:ST-VOY Parallax.jpg. All show a central plot element, which may be hard to understand without visual help. Just noting, i am not a member of WP:STARTREK and have no horse in that race either way. GermanJoe (talk) 11:58, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Just being a central plot element is not sufficient if there are no sources to describe said scene as a central plot element. This is why we are usually looking for critical commentary specifically on that scene, or production information about the scene that would aid the reader in understanding. --MASEM (t) 15:39, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Keep A) some of these have valid use (I was looking at one that shows the nature of the aliens in a given episode, something text would be hard pressed to convey and it was the only image in that article) others may not. A mass nomination like this where the case for each will be different is unwise. I'd suggest instead nominating 3-4 a day for a while after checking each for meeting NFCC. Hobit (talk) 14:57, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
This isn't a deletion discussion. It's a review of use of the images. Because they have a similar quality (episode screenshot across a series), highlighting them all at the same and discussing which ones to keep or not is fine; after which proper FFD would be followed for those deemed inappropriate. --MASEM (t) 15:35, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm an idiot. Thanks. Just followed the link and assumed I was at FfD... Oyi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hobit (talk • contribs)
No worries; I would definitely be concerned of a large mass nom without prior discussion about it (see my comment below). --MASEM (t) 17:08, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Comment Non-free TV episode screenshots are sometimes OK, but usually not. I think that it would be better to nominate the files individually at WP:FFD and not all at the same time since it's easier to discuss something if there aren't a hundred discussions running simultaneously. I haven't checked whether any of these images look OK or not. --Stefan2 (talk) 15:10, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Given the last time that a set of TV screenshots were mass-nomed at FFD and the backlash from that, it is better to figure out which ones we clearly should keep first and then follow with FFD of the rest (pointing to this discussion) to go forward with the proper removal, basically giving a two-gate review before any are actually deleted. (And I've already altered the Trek project and TV project on this discussion). --MASEM (t) 15:35, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Keep A mass nomination is going overboard. Many images are important--or relevant--to the Voyager TV episodes. And its is indeed better to figure out which images are keep (and which are superficial) before going out and filing a mass deletion and facing another huge angry backlash from the Trek community on wikipedia. These 2 images here: File:ST-VOY 3-3 The Chute.jpg or File:ST-VOY 3-17 Unity.jpg would clearly be relevant to the Voyager episodes since they illustrate what is going on here in their shows. --Artene50 (talk) 02:39, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
No, actually, those two are exactly representative of what needs to go. Both articles consist purely of plot renarration, which in most cases means there couldn't possibly be a reasonable case for any image at all – if there is no analytical commentary in the article, there is nothing that an image could legitimately serve to support. Also, both images illustrate plot elements that could very easily be described through text, and especially in the case of the second, the image does literally nothing to even make the plot element understood (you need the text to understand what the image is, not the other way round). We've had dozens and dozens of FFDs on these kinds of things, and these are exactly the ones that always, invariably, get deleted. Fut.Perf.☼ 08:21, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Comment Why is there a mass review of images if someone is determined to file a mass deletion. The point of a mass review is to locate those image which are clearly junk. Wikipedia went through that process in 2008 when 20 useless images were deleted. I stress that we must look at each and every image and see how it is used in the Voyager article to consider if it makes sense before considering a mass image deletion as in this case. That at least would be fair. Thank You, --Artene50 (talk) 03:47, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
That's why we're here. The results from this talk page will not directly lead to deletion; instead, let's assume one image is said to be unnecessary - the image would be removed, a bot would tag it orphan, and likely in 7 days would appear at FFD (another review point) to make the last determination. But here, we have no rush compared to the other processes, and so this is the time to alert the various projects (note: I have), and get them to help determine which ones should be kept and improve any rationales for them. We want every image to be looked at and reviewed, but since the problem persists across the bulk of the Voyager episodes, we should consider the rest in bulk. Note that that set in 2008 doesn't appear to be part of any organized effort, and certainly in August 2008 there wasn't any larger scale effort. Again to summarize: we want each image to be reviewed now leisurely before the faster-paced FFD process is started.
Also, note that for TV screenshots, just being relevant is not a reason to keep. We need sourced discussion about the scene used in question, most of the time. --MASEM (t) 06:09, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
The TV wikiproject was notified two days ago. Has anybody seen any positive response so far, as in, people from that project actually going round improving FURs for those they think should be kept, and removing others from articles? I'd say, give them one week. If I don't see constructive activity on a significant number of the images listed above by that time, I'm prepared to speedy-delete the whole lot. Constructive activity means: either orphan the image, or improve the FUR to one that is (a) individual, not boilerplated, and (b) clearly describes, in concrete, individualized terms, why this particular image is necessary to make that particular article understood properly. Currently, all these images have entirely boilerplated generic pseudo-rationales, which are ipso facto invalid, so they are all subject to speedy deletion under CSD#F7, a week from being identified as such (which is now.) Fut.Perf.☼ 08:33, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Comment: Its very strange. Most of the images have different contributors. And Masem very cordially writes that "This isn't a deletion discussion. It's a review of use of the images." That's very respectful. And yet Fut Perf clearly says he wants to delete all the images or have people give complete and immaculate rationales for them when he knows fairly well that most people have not seen all of the Voyager episodes and cannot simply give a 100% valid rationale for each and every image in 1 week. I wonder if Fut Perf is a fan of Voyager. This does not sound like a sincere way way to start a discussion....when he already wishes to file a mass deletion and is dedicated to do just that and doesn't care to wait to see how the discussion will develop. This is how we respect other people's image contributions? If Fut Perf respected other's contributions, he wouldn't have said what he just said. I suggest that someone else more neutral such as Masem go through each of the above images, see how they are used in the Voyager episodes and decide on a case by case basis whether to file a deletion rather than take the Easy Way out and file a mass deletion as Fut Perf wishes. Masem, at least, hasn't shown any pre-determined bias on this review, which is Not, unlike Fut Perf's wishes, a mass deletion. Look. I don't have the time to give rationales for all these images since I, too, haven't seen them all, work in real life and, yes, many Voyager episodes were not good. (And some of Thealok's pics aren't good either) But if Fut Perf hasn't seen any of the episodes, which I suspect, its just better to let a viewer or fan like Masem decide which images are critical/pertinent to a Voyager episode. These are just my thoughts. Thank You --Artene50 (talk) 10:21, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Huh? What on earth has being a Star Trek "fan" or not being one to do with our ability to judge proper NFC usage on these articles? No, I'm not a Star Trek fan, and no, I haven't seen those episodes and I have no interest in seeing them. But that's beside the point. Non-free images are supposed to be helpful for exactly those readers who haven't seen the episode, and their FURs and the articles themselves are supposed to make it clear how and why they are significant. If I, as a reader who hasn't seen the episode, can't recognize the explanative value of the image on seeing it used in the article, then that in itself means that either the image use or the article itself, or both, are crap. Deleting these images en masse is not an "easy way out". It is a final way out, after seeing this problem festering for years and years, seeing editors in this topic domain piling up bad images in dozens of articles, again and again, despite multiple warnings and explanations, and seeing the relevant wikiprojects doing absolutely nothing to stop this abuse of our policies during all this time, despite being clearly aware of the problem. No, I am not demanding that everything should be cleaned up within a week, but I do expect to see at least a significant sign of good will until then. Somebody at least making a start. Fut.Perf.☼ 10:40, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Comment Please heed Admin Masem's comment that this is a discussion at present. What do many 'reputable' scholars say about wikipedia--when they sneer at us. That it is a place of disorder or chaos. Some articles are top of the class and others are bottom of the barrel. Everything depends on the articles' contributors. A picture can be important since we can get people to contribute more often to an article if there is a visual reference. I understand your frustrations but please don't place a personal arbitrary deadline of 1 week on such images. Maybe Cbbkr can improve several Voyager article's more. I just notified him about this discussion but he has been away for 2 days now. I say let Admin Masem decide which images to keep and improve with a better rationale and which are just junk and file an image deletion. That is fair comment, I think. I have to go now. --Artene50 (talk) 11:08, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
(There's nothing special in my contributions due to being an admin - I'm just participating as concern for NFC, and avoiding a problem that came up about 1.5 months ago with Simpsons screenshots. If these are to be deleted, I won't be doing that step due to involvement). --MASEM (t) 14:29, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
And to add one thing, just to understand my place here: I've gone though many of the Trek episode articles and have had to do plot trimming, and while I haven't run through Voyager eps in a while, my recollection is that most of them have superficial use of screenshots just to fill an infobox, with little justification why to use that screenshot, notably as most episodes have little reception information (I think we run on an assumption that all Trek episodes are notable but people need to look for these sources. But that's another problem). Were I to be BOLD, I suspect I'd only leave a handful behind in removing them from episode articles. I will note that on two other present shows that I work on, Doctor Who and Fringe, we don't add (or revert additions) of screenshots unless we have found sources to justify a screenshot use. Unfortunately, most of the Trek episodes, like with older series, were created before 2008, where, while we had the basis of NFC, we didn't have the weight of the Foundation's non-free use resolution behind it, so per-episode screenshots were common, and this is what we're struggling with today. --MASEM (t) 14:45, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Note to Masem. That is the problem with some of the Trek articles. Some are very good and some are bottom of the barrel. I uploaded images between 2010-2012 mostly and tried to upload relevant images. Most of the pre-2008 images were uploaded by Thealok in 2006 before he left wikipedia the same year. Some Voyager articles like Remember have a third party source. I'll ask Cbbkr if he can improve the narratives of a few shows but all I can do is 1-2 shows because I work. Which of the above images would pass NFC today? One can't say without looking at how the images are used in an article but a mass deletion doesn't really address this issue at all. One shouldn't throw out everything if you want to remove say 15 or 18+ or so useless images. And for someone else to say 'this isn't a discussion, I will impose my own solution of a mass deletion doesn't seem right either'. This is a discussion about which images to single out for deletion, not a mass deletion. That is the point and I have no problem with this. Please analyse the images as they are used in an article to see if they are merely decorative or are significant to an understanding of an episode or its premise. And file an image deletion on those that fail this test. Thank You, --Artene50 (talk) 19:22, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Unfortunately, there is a problem that most of the Trek episode articles lack sources outside of the links to the Trek wikis - this "suggests" there's a notability problem but I think I would be hard pressed to send any to AFD given that likely source do exist. (EG for TNG, AV Club has run through the series, and the new Blu-Rays provide new commentary). But without sourcing it is hard to justify images, and while we can certainly wait on the image getting up to snuff, our non-free content policy and the Foundation require use to be a bit more pro-active there. Personally - not trying to be mean here - a slash+burn to remove any image not immediately having some possible discussion should be removed from any episode that is unsourced, if only so that when the episode does become better sourced, there might be a better image to use for that episode based on that source (completely hypothetical case, for Voyager's premiere which is using a shot of the Caretaker, maybe reviewers were found to be more impressed when Kim is shown to be "marked" or some other scene, which would make the image of that scene the appropriate one to use.) Again, I stress that right now at NFCR we should be asking people to note ones that have some reasonable potential to meet NFCC, such that we can then remove the rest from the articles, and then let normal orphaning and FFD process follow as a second check before outright deletion. --MASEM (t) 17:15, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Keep. These all need to be gone through on a case by case basis. I'm going to straight-up delete the clear offenders while leaving the ones that have the potential in the near term to be properly defended. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 15:55, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Comment That is what I'm just saying. Some of the images use can be defended and some would fail NFC today. Please don't file a mass deletion on them all without going through their use on a case by case basis. That's prejudging the outcome of this discussion. --Artene50 (talk) 19:22, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Okay, since it has been pointed out above that those images need to be judged on a case-by-case basis, lets start with the first one: How does the use of File:An Omega Particle.png in The Omega Directive satisfy WP:NFCC#8? Note that WP:NFCI#5 says that film and television screenshots should be for critical commentary, which is completely lacking here. Thus this seems to be a complete failure of NFCC#8. -- ToshioYamaguchi 10:19, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
I'd tend to argue that this provides no benefit at all to the reader. Hobit (talk) 16:42, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
Just to note that a better approach would be for any image that an editor thinks should be kept (because I think there's general agreement that the bulk of these are failures), to say "let's talk about this one"; get the ones that have a likelihood that editors want to keep than to waste time on the more obvious cases. --MASEM (t) 18:30, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
Images to be kept
Please list any images to be kept in this subsection, using the following format (simply paste the following into the edit window, a notice in the edit window indicates where to list the image. Thank you.). -- ToshioYamaguchi 13:25, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
====[[:File:Example.png]]==== This image should be kept because (give reason here). ~~~~
This image should be kept because it shows the stolen timeship which would cause the end of the 29th century in a time inversion. It is the basis for the Voyager episode Future's End. Without this timeship, there would be no premise for the Voyager episode and a single image helps viewers understand what this ship looks like. Future's End was a two part series of Voyager, too and the existing article has 5 references from Star Trek.com (CBS) --Artene50 (talk) 00:48, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
Not convinced. What matters is not how important that plot element is for the episode. What matters is how important the visual details are for understanding the plot element. The article doesn't talk about the details of the visual design of the ship. To understand the plot, a verbal description (a small spaceship approximately the size of a 20th-century fighter plane with delta wings) would be entirely sufficient. Fut.Perf.☼ 08:45, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
Agree, without any sourced commentary about the time ship, it's not really necessary to otherwise understand the episode. --MASEM (t) 20:07, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
The Voyager producers never talked about the ship's technical details--just that it was a timeship from the 29th century which was faster than Voyager. I suppose it will have to be deleted then, so decided to ask for an uploader deletion since I can't think of a reason to keep. --Artene50 (talk) 21:00, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
This image should also be kept because it establishes with one screenshot that Chakotay (the Number 2 officer on Voyager) is on a planet populated and run by deassimiliated Borg drones--people who have detached themselves from the Borg collective--in Unity Its very useful in showing immediately the situation that Chakotay is in. Before, these people presented themselves to him as just the planet's colonists...but now, Chakotay learns the shocking truth. --Artene50 (talk) 01:10, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
No, the image doesn't "establish" that he is "on a planet populated with deassimilated Borg drones". The only thing it establishes is that somebody (can't even figure out it's Chakotay) is in a dark room with some gloomy-looking people. The image is no help to understanding anything. Quite to the contrary, I need the text to help me understand what the image shows, rather than the other way round. Fut.Perf.☼ 08:48, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
The image is pertinent since it shows that Not All is What it Seems at the place that it is living on. The people who rescued him are not merely innocent settlers of the planet that his spaceaft carshlanded on but deassimiliated Borg drones who have detached themselves from the Borg collective. I chose this screencap to show Chakotay viewing this scene and learning the awful truth for the first time. Its not decorative and any Trek fan would know that people he was viewing were not ordinary inhabitants of the planet. Fut.Perf. notes that he needed the text to undetsatnd the scene but if anyone had viewed this episode, they would know that this was Chakotay since he was wearing a red shirt and his ship had crashed on the planet. Chief of Security Tuvok's uniform in contrast is yellow and black. --Artene50 (talk) 19:50, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
We aren't writing articles for Trek fans but for the general reader. Given that we have separate articles that show what Borg are, and who Chakotay is, there's little need for an image that has no additional discussion outside the plot; the reader can still understand that this involves Chakotay and Borg drones from the text. --MASEM (t) 20:08, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
OK. Masem. You've convinced me here after I thought more about your comments. I agree that this image can be deleted. --Artene50 (talk) 20:50, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
This image is a visual image of the Borg Drone--the title of the episode Drone--called 'One' who was created from Seven of Nine’s nanoprobe technology. Its a good visual illustration for this episode--direct and to the point for this new creation. --Artene50 (talk) 03:40, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
Doesn't help me to understand anything, beyond what Borgs look like (for which we have an extra article, with its own illustrations.) Same for the other character shown. Fut.Perf.☼ 08:51, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
The article you cite shows the Borg Queen and Jean Luc Picard as a Borg drone but this drone was not created by the Borg. It was created specifically in Voyager by an accident--by Seven of Nine's Borg nanoprobe technology. Surely, this single image is a pertinent illustration of this episode which I am concerned that Fut.Perf. may not have seen since he has not seen this TV series. Its not purely decorative. --Artene50 (talk) 19:43, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
This image could be kept because it is a striking image of the wormhole through which Voyager sends a message to a Romulan captain in a Romulan vessel through a probe in the distant Alpha Quadrant in Eye of the Needle. I say it may be kept this is a suggestion just for this particular image as it is almost literally an eye of the needle view of the Alpha Quadrant where Voyager's home, Earth, is located. --Artene50 (talk) 03:58, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
Only if the article contained non-trivial, well-sourced, real-world critical discussion of the technical or aesthetic design aspects of that "worm hole" simulation. Which, of course, it doesn't. Like almost all the others, the article consists only of plot renarration. Plot-only articles can virtually never sustain a reasonable non-free image claim. Fut.Perf.☼ 08:56, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
This image should be kept because it is the first visual appearance of the real Marayna, a lonely sentient alien, who previously only appeared in Voyager's holodeck program in the episode Alter Ego. This article has at least 3 references from the star trek.com website which is run by CBS. In the screencap, Tuvok meets Marayna and has to reason with her and ask her to release Voyager from her control or risk seeing the death of his ship and his crew in a nebula that Marayna also controls. So, yes, the screencap is notable. --Artene50 (talk) 20:40, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
Screencaps are never "notable". Article topics are. Don't tell us what's happening in that scene; tell us why it's in need of visual illustration to make the article understood. Do we need a visual illustration of what that particular alien looks like, out of the myriads of aliens that have been designed for the series? Possibly, if the article contained non-trivial, sourced, real-life analysis of the design choices made in creating that mask. Which, again, it doesn't. Fut.Perf.☼ 09:01, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
I agree with you that sometimes a visual illustration of what a particular alien looks like--out of a myriad of aliens--is helpful and sometimes it is just junk. But you haven't seen this particular episode, Fut.Perf., and you don't see how the alien Marayna infiltrates Voyager's holodeck program and disguises herself as just part of one of the 'extra' holodeck characters in a Hawaiian setting that capture the attention of Harry Kim and then Tuvok. She can use the Doctor's transponder to beam down out of the holodeck to Tuvok's quarters and later seize control of Voyager's computers and stop its engines. Finally, she can even make the nebula that Voyager is investigating suddenly increase in activity--thereby threatening the safety of the ship all because Tuvok rebuffs her request to see her. This shows that she is not your day of the week forgettable alien and if I was an ordinary Trek viewer, I'd prefer a scene where I could see who on earth the real Marayna since its pertinent here. This article has sources to startrek.com which is run by CBS and is a WP:RS. Thanks, --Artene50 (talk) 20:01, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
We can't just go off your assurances the character/scene/setting is notable. We need to have sourced commentary about the character or scene to make that connection. You can't state that importance in the article yourself (that would be original research) and without that discussion in the text, we don't need the image to understand the article. --MASEM (t) 20:12, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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