Wikipedia:Reference desk/all

Wikipedia Reference Desk - All recent questions	Search Wikipedia:
WP:RD/ALL redirects here. You may also be looking for Wikipedia:Resolving disputes, Wikipedia:Redirect or Wikipedia:Deletion review. This page lists all the recent questions asked on the Wikipedia reference desk by category. To ask a new question, please select one of the categories below. To answer a question, click on the "edit" link beside the question. Return to the Reference Desk main page... For information on any topic, choose a category for your question:
Computers and IT Science Mathematics Humanities Computing, information technology, electronics, software and hardware Biology, chemistry, physics, medicine, geology, engineering and technology Mathematics, geometry, probability, and statistics History, politics, literature, religion, philosophy, law, finance, economics, art, and society Language Entertainment Miscellaneous Archives Spelling, grammar, word etymology, linguistics, language usage, and requesting translations Sports, popular culture, movies, music, video games, and TV shows Subjects that don't fit in any of the other categories Old questions are archived daily For help specific to the operation of Wikipedia: Help desk Village pump New contributors' help page Ask general questions about using Wikipedia Ask about specific policies and operations of Wikipedia A range of services to answer newcomers' questions For Wikipedia reference information: Help manual MediaWiki handbook Citing Wikipedia Resolving disputes Virtual classroom Information and instructions on every aspect of Wikipedia Information about the software that runs Wikipedia How to cite Wikipedia as a reference For resolving issues between users An advanced guide on everything Wikipedia See also the Wikipedia department directory
The following images are being used under the GNU FDL and/or the CC-BY-SA license: P computing.svg, P physics.svg, P mathematics.svg, P question.svg, P art.png, P literature.svg, P music.svg, P archive.svg

February 18

Find Upon Opening Word

Hello. How does one program a specific Word 2007 file upon opening to run a Find window? Thanks in advance. --Mayfare (talk) 03:36, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Open the document and press ALT + F11. Then, double-click on ThisDocument in the Project pane on the left. Then, add this code to the pane on the right:

Private Sub Document_Open()
    Word.Application.Dialogs(wdDialogEditFind).Display (9999999)
End Sub

Then, save your work both in the code window and the main application window. You may also need to lower your macro security: [1].—Best Dog Ever (talk) 08:42, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Relail DVRs

Hello. I'm in the market for a HDD based DVR in the US - one that does not require a subscription and is not a cable company rental. My other requirements is having a built-in tuner (both NTSC and ATSC), and the ability to record in HD. A this time I just have basic cable service with a full analog lineup, plus local channel HD broadcasts available in digital Clear QAM (all the major networks). CableCARD support would be a plus, but not a requirement, since 90% of my recording is off the major networks. Price is of course a factor - I'd like to stay in the $200-$300 ballpark.

The set-top boxes offered through the cable companies, such as those my Motorola and Cisco, do not appear to be offered for retail [2][3]. I see some used boxes available on ebay and similar, but I'm suspicious of these.

The only retail DVRs I have found so far are the MDR-513H and MDR-515H from Magnavox [4]. However, although both of their boxes have a digital tuner, support HDD recording, and have a HDMI output, they don't record in HD. The user guide[5] states: "This unit cannot record images as aspect ratio of 16:9. The 16:9 images will be recorded as 4:3" and "All high definition pictures will be down converted to the standard definition pictures when they are recorded on this unit". I can understand why the DVD recording side doesn't support HD, but I don't understand why this feature wouldn't be available for HDD recording and playback. It would seem to me that recording an playing back the digital broadcast stream would be a simple matter.

Are there any technical or regulatory reasons that such devices are not available to the consumer? Why can't I find what I'm logging for? Is this a conspiracy to force consumers into overpriced rental agreements? Any help or clarification would be appreciated. Thank you. 24.254.222.77 (talk) 20:20, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

If you have an existing Windows PC that's up to the job, have you considered using it for Windows Media Center? I use it for Freeview (the UK's terrestrial digital TV) and it's very nice (all it took was a couple of inexpensive USB DTV decoder dongles to turn a games PC into a nice media center). I don't know about cable at all, but this article suggests there are WMC-friendly cable decoders which will take a CableCARD. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 20:31, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm looking for a more traditional style self-contained black-box as a VCR replacement that the whole family can use. We have two laptops and a mid-tower, but they all are used regularly, so they are not available for re-purposing. 24.254.222.77 (talk) 21:04, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Internet Explorer Popups on Toshiba Computer

I got a Toshiba Windows 7 laptop computer for Christmas and for a while now Internet Explorer has been popping up at a website with news and trending searches similar to Yahoo but it was a Toshiba website. I deleted everything Internet Explorer related but it still pops up even though I cleared everything from the recycling bin. I want to know why this is happening and how I could stop it. P.S. If this may help it was bought at OfficeMax, I think. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.107.206.236 (talk) 21:22, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like Toshiba installed some malware on your computer. That's rather unpleasant of them. Are you sure this laptop wasn't sold at a discount, with the provision that you display such ads ? If so, you might be out of luck. Here are some things you could try:

1) Try blocking all pop-ups (note that some are wanted).

2) Download and install another browser, like Firefox, Opera, or Google Chrome. They are free.

3) Uninstall, download, and reinstall Internet Explorer. (You won't be able to easily do a download after you uninstall your last browser, so you should download and install another browser, in step 2, before uninstalling IE.)

If you need more help with any of these steps, let us know. StuRat (talk) 22:58, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not really sure what you meant 'I deleted everything Internet Explorer related'. But anyway did you try disabling all addons for Internet Explorer. Also did you look in the add/remove programs for anything Toshiba related that you don't want? Also what do you mean 'popping up'? Are you simply referring to the IE default page (i.e. the page that may start when you start IE or open a new tab/window)? If so, just change it. Or do you mean the IE default search provider (i.e. if you search with the search tool bar in IE without changing the search provider) is something Toshiba related? Again, if so just change it. Nil Einne (talk) 16:50, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Have you cleaned your register? 190.60.93.218 (talk) 12:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

February 19

Home mail server with multiple (external) POP3 accounts

I'm trying to set up some sort of home server for my dad. It needs to provide network storage for files from two laptops, but he also wants to be able to read and send emails from either computer. He does consultancy work for a number of companies, each of which has provided him with a mail account, and most of the accounts support only POP3 access (apparently it's still 1995 in their IT departments). At the moment he uses Outlook to download the mails, then files them offline in a pst file. I know that Outlook dislikes working on a network other than an Exchange server, so I'm trying to find a solution that would allow him to see all his emails, move emails between folders and archive them from either laptop. So far, the solutions I have come up with are either using Windows Home Server (expensive, and I'm not sure if it has this ability), or getting him to use Eudora instead of Outlook (ok for him, but my mum has a dislike of unusual software), or some horrendously complicated implementation of fetchmail, postfix and/or dovecot. Is there another way of doing this I haven't thought of? Most of my Google searches on mail server setups are targeted at those with their own domain. Any help appreciated. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 11:05, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I use getmail rather than fetchmail, as I found it much easier to use. For a while I didn't use a standalone MDA at all - I just had getmail drop stuff into a Maildir folder structure. Dovecot contains its own MDA, which will read that Maildir and serve it. Latterly I wrote my own MDA in Python (because I couldn't be bothered learning procmail's filter language) which drops the mails into subdirectories in the Maildir. The Maildir is then watched by Dovecot which serves them to clients over IMAP. Dovecot-IMAP literally requires no configuration (it just looks in a user's ~/Maildir by default), getmail needs a trivial config file (it's less than 10 lines long), and a simple procmail setup (to sort mail by recipient account) should be almost trivial. I do all this on Linux; it should all work on Windows, but I've not tried it. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 11:32, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, bit of a different approach, but have you considered just putting him on Gmail? He can auto forward his current mailboxes to to his gmail account and once he confirms those email addresses, it even allows you to reply using the email address the message was sent to (instead of the gmail address). All the emails stay online, over 3GB storage, accessible from anywhere in the world. Vespine (talk) 04:02, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Multiple search queries on a web-page

If I have a file with a list of search terms and I want to got to page x (imagine it's like google, even if it's not the case) and perform a search, which is the easiest way to do that in Linux? The perfect result would be Firefox with several tabs showing the results. The list is rather small, not more than 100 or a little bit longer. 188.76.228.174 (talk) 14:46, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm having trouble understanding precisely what it is you are trying to do. What are you searching? What do you mean by going to 'page x' (do you mean opening the first x pages of search results for each term?)? Probably the easiest way to do this kind of thing is with some kind of scripting language. Python has good support for reading data from files and controlling web browsers - for example, you can do

import webbrowser
webbrowser.open_new_tab('http://wikipedia.org')

to open the Wikipedia home page in a new tab of your default browser. Depending on what resource you are accessing, you might be able to encode the search term in the URL. 81.98.43.107 (talk) 16:55, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

using the code above, expand it to open your text file and read each line. That's a nice little exercise, if you are a beginner at programming. Python is one good option, and it's mostly installed by default in Linux. Ib30 (talk) 22:58, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Computers predicting the economy

I know there are some projects attempting to do this, but...

Will silicon based computers ever be able to accurately predict macro-, micro-, and regional economies? If they have real-time economic data, artificial intelligence, social media mining, data mining, and so many other models integrated with their computing, will they still ever be able to produce accurate models? Is it already being done (albeit not that great) (or for just one stock)?

Or will we have to wait for quantum computers?--Prowress (talk) 16:41, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Trading houses use computer modelling to try to predict the values of stock markets, but mostly to try to do short-term arbitrage. Economies are very complex and subject to measurement uncertainties, so even if a perfect model existed, it'd surely be a nonlinear dynamical system, which would make any kind of long-term predictions very unreliable. Quantum computers are not a magical solution. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 16:51, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Whether a system is linear isn't really relevant to whether long-term predictions are feasible (perhaps you meant chaotic system, but depending on what aspect of the behaviour you want to predict, for how long, and how chaotic the system is, that isn't necessarily a barrier, either). To Prowress: you mentioned data and computing power, but to predict a system, you also need a good understanding of how it works (for example, even if social media mining and other tools could tell you very precisely about, say, economic confidence, that information is useless unless you understand how it is likely to influence people's behaviour). Basically, nobody knows the answer to your question (but presumably most economists hope the answer is yes), but I suspect that we will have useful quantum computers (we already have simple quantum computers, by the way) long before we have useful models of macrosopic economies. 81.98.43.107 (talk) 17:21, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Disabled wireless

I have an HP G56 notebook running Windows 7, which cannot access the Internet. I also have a desktop computer that can access the Internet. It should be as simple as removing the Ethernet cable from one computer to the other, but that doesn't work. It won't let me connect, and the diagnostics won't solve the problem. Furthermore, in an attempt to reset my wireless connection settings I disabled wireless and now I can't turn it back on no matter how hard I try. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.55.96.121 (talk) 17:46, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Some laptops have little external (physical) slider buttons than enable and disable WiFi and/or Bluetooth. If you've turned the WiFi off this way, it may not be possible to re-enable it in software, but instead you'd need to slide the switch again. On my Acer the switches have a wifi icon and a little LED beside them. 87.114.249.141 (talk) 18:20, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Do the computers connect to a cable modem directly, or to a router? If the computer is connected directly to a cable modem, the modem may have locked onto the mac address of the desktop computers network card and is ignoring any requests coming from a different mac address (the notebook). So, assuming this is the problem, the solution is to power down / unplug the cable modem and wait a while, then when you turn it back on make sure it is connected to the computer you want the internet to work on. It will lock onto the new mac address and accept connections from it. You will need to do this every time you switch the cable from one computer to another AvrillirvA (talk) 18:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I tried what you said, twice. How long am I supposed to wait? The connection doesn't work and the laptop tells me to unplug the modem, wait 10 seconds, and plug it back in. After I do that it troubleshoots some more and says the problem is "Local Area Connection doesn't have a valid IP configuration". And also it wasn't an external switch. As I recall I went to some sort of "properties" menu and clicked "disable". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.55.96.121 (talk) 20:37, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

30 seconds is normally ample. When you plug the ethernet cable into your laptop, do you see this icon in the systray (by the clock)? - Cucumber Mike (talk) 21:03, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but there's either a red x or a yellow triangle with an exclamation mark on top of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.55.96.121 (talk) 21:15, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Can I get some attention here please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.55.96.121 (talk) 15:36, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Another possibility is that a fixed IP address has been set for one or more of your Internet adapters. To check this, click Start Button->Settings->Network Connections. (1) Right click on an adapter icon. Select Properties. In the Items list, select Internet Protocol. Click Properties. Click Obtain an IP address automatically. Click OK as needed. Repeat at (1) as needed. David Spector (user/talk) 02:19, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Are you saying I should do that on the desktop or the laptop computer? It's already set to "obtain an IP address automatically" on the desktop. 96.55.96.121 (talk) 15:28, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually, both computers have "obtain an IP address automatically" set. So what else could be the problem? 96.55.96.121 (talk) 00:40, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Desktop Shortcuts Disappear

I am using Windows 7 64 bit and I have desktop shortcuts to a few of the Windows games - minesweeper, etc. Every now and then the shortcuts disappear. It is easy enough to make new ones, but why are they disappearing and is there anything I can do about it?

Any hints please? Gurumaister (talk) 18:39, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Every week there is a maintance done by Win 7, where it looks for invalid shortcuts. If there are more than 4 it deletes it.

This should help you: Desktop shortcuts disappear in Windows 7 --33rogers (talk) 21:26, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Many thanks 33rogers. Gurumaister (talk) 09:14, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Downloading a flash function

Hello, I would like to download the Execution 101: How an Equity Order Becomes a Trade on http://www.knight.com/investorRelations/education.asp. When you click on the link to view it, this Flash feature pops up in the middle of your screen without any change to the URL. Is there any way to download their Execution 101 presentation? Thanks.--Prowress (talk) 18:55, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Go to http://www.knight.com/investorRelations/trade_execution-2.swf old chap - then use the "Save As" dialog in your browser to save the file locally. You can then open or drag and drop the file with/into a browser to view it. However, please be aware of their T&Cs at [6], specifically "Except as otherwise explicitly agreed by Knight in writing, the Content may only be downloaded, displayed, reformatted and printed for your personal, non-commercial use." Quintessential British Gentleman (talk) 20:03, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you so much! For future downloads of flash content, how would I find the URL to go directly to that flash content (like the one you listed) so I could do the same?--Prowress (talk) 20:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I opened the link to the file (http://www.knight.com/investorRelations/execution101.asp) in a new window then looked at the source code of the page (Use "View-->Source" in Internet Explorer or the shortcut "CTRL-U" in Firefox). This gave me the following :-

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd"> <script language="javascript"> AC_FL_RunContent = 0; </script> <script language="javascript"> DetectFlashVer = 0; </script> <script src="../images/flash/AC_RunActiveContent.js" language="javascript"></script> <script language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript"> <!-- // ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- // Globals // Major version of Flash required var requiredMajorVersion = 9; // Minor version of Flash required var requiredMinorVersion = 0; // Revision of Flash required var requiredRevision = 115; // ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- // --> </script> <!--<span class="pageHeader"> </span><br><br><br><br><br>--> <!--flash movie goes here--> <script language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript"> <!-- if (AC_FL_RunContent == 0 || DetectFlashVer == 0) { alert("This page requires AC_RunActiveContent.js."); } else { var hasRightVersion = DetectFlashVer(requiredMajorVersion, requiredMinorVersion, requiredRevision); if(hasRightVersion) { // if we've detected an acceptable version // embed the flash movie AC_FL_RunContent( 'codebase', 'http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=9,0,115,0', 'width', '816', 'height', '588', 'src', 'trade_execution-2', 'quality', 'high', 'pluginspage', 'http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer', 'align', 'middle', 'play', 'true', 'loop', 'true', 'scale', 'noscale', 'wmode', 'window', 'devicefont', 'false', 'id', 'trade_execution-2', 'bgcolor', '#ffffff', 'name', 'trade_execution-2', 'menu', 'true', 'allowScriptAccess','sameDomain', 'allowFullScreen','true', 'movie', 'trade_execution-2', 'salign', '' ); //end AC code } else { // flash is too old or we can't detect the plugin var alternateContent = 'Alternate HTML content should be placed here.' + 'This content requires the Adobe Flash Player.' + '<a href=http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflash/>Get Flash</a>'; document.write(alternateContent); // insert non-flash content } } // --> </script> <noscript> // Provide alternate content for browsers that do not support scripting // or for those that have scripting disabled. Alternate HTML content should be placed here. This content requires the Adobe Flash Player. <a href="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflash/">Get Flash</a> </noscript> <!--end of flash movie-->

The critical thing here is knowing that all Flash objects use the suffix ".swf" - I then extrapolated the filename using the "id" and "movie" variables as "trade_execution-2", noted the lack of any path elsewhere, indicating that the file was in the same directory as the page I was looking at and I simply changed the URL from http://www.knight.com/investorRelations/execution101.asp to http://www.knight.com/investorRelations/trade_execution-2.swf to directly access it. This was slightly harder than normal - most sites have a direct link to the file in the page source in the form of, for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/flash/blah.swf or similar, enabling you to go directly to the flash object. Hope this helps old bean! Quintessential British Gentleman (talk) 22:37, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I dont quite understand how browsers can get the swf, when I use developer console on chrome or DOM inspector in firefox, I get the code of the swf..

or if I check the elements of the page. the browsers know the address of the swf, without being in the html... What kind of sorcery is this? 190.60.93.218 (talk) 12:49, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Creating machine code computer games in the 1980s

When I think of all the computer games developed for the Commodore 64 from the middle 1980s to the early 1990s, I have to just wonder. Did people really program all these by hand, in 6510 assembly language code? I mean, I program computers for a living, and I know 6510 assembly language code, but for me, these two aren't compatible. I write code in C, Java, and C#, which are far more human-readable than assembly language, and let the compiler do all the assembly language work for me. What little I have done directly in assembly language code is short example programs. My most ambitious project was a BASIC expansion adding a couple of commands, but I couldn't get passing parameters to work right. In the days of the Commodore 64, people didn't have graphics and sound cards with in-built drivers, they had to control the chips directly. Did people just painstakingly add instruction after instruction to their assembly language code, hoping symbolic addresses (to be later resolved by the assembler) and hand-written comments would be enough to keep them sane when debugging their code? JIP | Talk 20:26, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I never programmed for the 6502, but I wrote a couple of programs for the Z80 (Sinclair ZX Spectrum and Amstrad CPC464), including Magic Brush, a fairly full-featured graphics editor. Yes, we really wrote these programs directly in assembly language, and directly on the target machine. It taught me the value of structured programming. Symbolic labels for subroutines and variables made things reasonably readable, and, after a while, one acquired a set of patterns for standard situations. The debug cycle was somewhat horrible, since any bug would most likely crash the computer. It was a big step forward to move from cassette tape to disk drive. More professional studios had a (UNIXy) minicomputer and a cross-development environment, but still would write directly in assembly language. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:48, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Wow that's a pro. 190.158.184.192 (talk) 21:02, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Actually, I've even written code for the Z80 without the use of an assembler to speed up MSX BASIC. If you compare languages now and 5 years ago, I think in 10 years people will ask "so you actually had to specify how C# should do a for-loop?". Or may be not, C will probably always be supposed to be "the professional language", while it shows it's shorthand for ASM and still a 1973 language. Joepnl (talk) 23:08, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I wrote quite a few C64 programs in assembly with just a monitor (which means I had to hand-compute jump offsets and had data locations written down on a piece of paper, with no labels). It was a bit laborious (and a pain to change stuff) but not any harder, intellectually, than programming in say C or Java. For a different weird little architecture I've had to write a small amount in genuine machine code (meaning I had to turn mnemonics into the appropriate opcodes by hand) before I got annoyed and wrote an assembler for it. It's not hard at all, it's just a chore. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 23:16, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Yup. Been there, done that. As a long-time amateur programmer, I wrote a little code on the Sinclair Spectrum with no assembler at all - just a copy of Programming the Z80 (still got it somewhere), and a lot of patience working out the numerical value of op-codes, to 'poke' into memory. When I finally got an assembler (possibly for the Amstrad CPC 464) I was in heaven. And then there was programming an Acorn Archimedes in ARM assembler - too easy. Of course, my code rarely worked properly. These days, I program in Java, and construct much more complex applications that don't work either... AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:57, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh yes! I remember those days! There was a time when I knew most of the Z80 hex codes off by heart, and could read the hex code of a program and work out what the processor was doing. I only wrote very short program segments in hexadecimal, of course. It was useful for writing short patches, but it would have been a nightmare to keep track of a complex game program. Dbfirs 13:19, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Most of the above replies say "I've written a little code directly in assembly language". I have also done that myself, but only for short example programs. Did professional game programmers also create commercial-quality games directly in assembler by writing each instruction by hand? JIP | Talk 06:32, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Chris Sawyer (creator of Transport Tycoon and RollerCoaster Tycoon) is famous for coding as much of his games as possible in assembly, only using C to connect the assembly code with the operating system. And that wasn't just in the 80s either (although according our article he did write commercially released games in Z80 machine code) - RollerCoaster Tycoon 2 from 2002 was still written mostly in assembly. Smurrayinchester 09:47, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

What I'm mostly interested in is, for example, when Andrew Braybrook wrote Uridium, did he just sit down in front of a Commodore 64 and enter assembly language instructions that he had written down on paper in advance, one by one? I mean, that's the way I did it, when I wrote my BASIC expansion that worked reasonably well with constant values but crashed if passed a variable. But something like Uridium or, heck, any commercial-quality game in the 1980s is way more complex than that. JIP | Talk 20:21, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't know what Andrew Braybrook did, but paper was only marginally involved when I coded large (as in 20kb binary/200kb source) assembler programs. I had a rough architecture in mind, and just typed the program directly into a text editor, one subroutine at a time. The instructions are fairly transparent: call/ret, jp, jr, push/pop, ld, add/sub, and so on. The processor had 6 general-purpose 8-bit registers (or 3 16-bit registers), and one acquired a number of stock tricks (xor A, ldir, exx). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:00, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Zzap64 published a diary Braybrook wrote about his development of Paradroid - it's here. He talks about using a proper symbolic assembler, and debugging with a monitor cartridge. That sounds like a workflow akin to normal modern programming. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 20:49, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

How do you do the sprites in assembly? you have to do them pixel by pixel? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.60.93.218 (talk) 14:14, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Sprites in a C64 are mostly done by hardware. There's a few registers in the VIC chip that specify on-screen location and colours for them, and crucially the location in memory where the sprite bitmap data is kept. Things broadly similar on the Atari400 and 800. On machines that don't have hardware sprites, like the Spectrum or a PC's VGA adapter (strictly some PC graphics adapters did have CGA or VGA sprites, but these were mostly intended for the mouse pointer) you have to take the raw sprite data, shift it by up to 7 bits (because sprites aren't usually aligned to 8-bit byte boundaries) and then you compose the sprites with on-screen data with a bitwise OR operation. Undrawing a sprite entails redrawing the other stuff that should be there. Naively this might turn out to be a bit flickery, so better implementations used dirty rectangles and a (mini)back buffer to prevent flickering (the screen took up so much of the memory of an early home computer that there was rarely space for a full back buffer). Luckily doing that shift->or procedure on a spectrum or a PC is easier than it would be on a C64, because those machines' CPUs have a few more registers, and some 16 bit wide registers, which make it easier. -- -Finlay McWalterჷTalk 14:54, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Amateur code on the C64 was rarely done fully in assembly, and I suspect some commercial software was the same. I remember typing in code from magazines with combinations of GW Basic, assembly and tons of peeks and pokes and sys calls. Things like Simon Basic and text adventure generation toolkits made things easier for amateurs to produce some decent quality games and applications. Coders from the demo scene coded their demos in assembly primarily to show off their knowledge. However, the VIC-20 was a different proposition! With a glorious 3.5K of RAM, anything worth its salt had to be done entirely in assembly, using every trick in the book to optimize code and swap between available memory buffers and CPU registers. I remember once spending an entire evening typing in assembly code from a magazine and just before saving my younger sister kicked the power cable... that was my first experience of realizing the importance of backups (although in those days backups were painfully slow onto tape/cassettes). Nowadays I wonder how many of the current generation coders realize the importance of code optimization? How many understand how a CPU works? Sorry for random thoughts... typing fast and in a hurry to leave. Sandman30s (talk) 11:42, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

floppy disk removal

having extracted the head of a floppy disk (the plastic part protecting it) from a floppy drive, could i have accidentally damaged the reading head and corrupt media i'd like to recover using this drive? How do I test this? Thankis. --80.99.254.208 (talk) 20:36, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't quite understand what you're saying. Did you somehow try to pull the floppy out of the drive and have it fall apart on you ? If so, try to get all the pieces out with tweezers. Then try reading and writing to a new floppy disk. At worst, you would damage the new disk, if some pieces of the old one are still inside. The good news is, both floppy disks and floppy drives are quite cheap to replace (although they are both obsolete, so you might not want to bother). If your goal is to recover data from the floppy disk that fell apart, that would be difficult. There are places that could attempt it, but it would have to be quite valuable data to make this worthwhile. StuRat (talk) 22:14, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Right, it fell apart and I *already* pulled out the piece stuck inside with tweezers. If I write a new floppy successfully, does that mean I can assume I didn't mess the head up (with my tweezers) and would not damage any old floppies I try to read? --80.99.254.208 (talk) 07:16, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd say if you can do a read-write cycle on the new floppy, you're likely OK with the old floppy. If you're still worried, you can first copy the contents using another computer. StuRat (talk) 04:19, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

You may also want to specify what kind of floppy. -- œ^™ 23:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Wiring a Small Office with CAT6 Ethernet?

• The small office has 8 computers. Each computer is located in a separate room.
• All the computers need to be able to connect to a File Server where they store their data. There is a room at the back for the File Server.
• All the computer need to be able to connect to the Internet, offered via a single Cable Modem.
• So I am thinking you connect the Cable Internet to the File Server, and since all the other 8 computers are connected to the file server, which will give them all access to the internet as well as locally stored files.
• Where to where is the CAT6 cable ethernet wiring supposed to connect to?
• Will each computer need a dedicated CAT6 wire to the File Server, or can they be merged into 1 CAT6 wire that goes all the way to the File Server?

Thanks. --33rogers (talk) 21:22, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

To share access to the internet, you will need a router somewhere in the network. If you (or the computer network technician you hire) are pretty savvy, you can install a software router on the file server, but this probably falls in to the "fairly advanced" networking tricks category, and may not be worth the effort. For around $50-100, you can buy a small router and network switch, allowing you to share the single internet connection with a lot of machines. Usually, this means "four" or "eight" ethernet ports. For about $20 more, you can buy an extra network switch, which allows you to expand the capabilities of the router, by giving you extra ethernet ports for more computer connections. Note that a switch can not replace the function of the router - only expand the available number of ports. A very common error is to use a switch instead of a router, on the assumption that it is cheaper, and looks similar in outward appearance - but you still need a router - by itself, the switch will not work for the job you described. What you can do is place the switch near to the computers, and then run a single long ethernet cable to the router and file-server, reducing the length of cable you need to buy. Nimur (talk) 21:37, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

That fourth point isn't what you want to do. On your network, the file server can be anywhere. It doesn't have to act as a "choke point" for all traffic to funnel through in order to access the Internet. It should be connected to the network just like any other computer. What you will need to buy is at least one router, which does act as the "choke point"; and then you will run a cable from every computer and file server to the router. The router sits next to the cable modem and there's a cable going from the cable modem to the router's "external" port. Then when your computers try to access the Internet, it's the router's job to mediate all the requests and get the packets where they are supposed to go. All eight computers can access the file server, too, in this configuration; they do not each need a cable to go directly to the file server. In case you were wondering, your router is the piece of equipment that assigns each computer and file server on your network an IP address. You will likely want the router to be a firewall (that's what I did at my last office I wired). Comet Tuttle (talk) 21:35, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• Can the CAT6 wiring be merged (joined with the rest of the network to save on wiring costs?) as I have shown in the below picture? That is, can it be like there is only 1 CAT6 wire going to the File Server which is located at the other end of the office? And the other computers just 'hook in'?

--33rogers (talk) 22:39, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

No, that is not possible. CAT6 ethernet is always wired in what is called a star topology. There needs to be one central point, typically a network switch. — Edokter (talk) — 22:59, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

This used to be sort of possible, though not exactly using your map, when we all used thin Ethernet; this is now antiquated and you truly don't want to even spend 1 minute researching it. See network topology if you're interested. What are you spending on cabling that you are trying to avoid a star network? Cat 5e cabling supports gigabit Ethernet, by the way; are you sure CAT6 is required? Comet Tuttle (talk) 00:39, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

You could cable the file server to a wireless router in a central location and stick wifi cards in your clients. Wifi is not as reliable and robust as cable, but if retrofitting cable in the site is problematic it's at least worth considering.. Vespine (talk) 03:40, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks all. I have decided to go with CAT6. I was confused earlier, because I thought they all go into 1 single wire, but now it makes more sense. --33rogers (talk) 10:00, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Depending how much data each will be transferring to/from the server, it's pretty much possible to "merge" all the 8 PCs onto a single network cable that goes to the server - you'd buy an Ethernet switch (which can be pretty cheap) connect all your PCs to that, and then run the output of that as a single network cable to the server room. This could save quite a bit of wiring, depending on your building layout. --Phil Holmes (talk) 16:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Mystery Font

Hello,

I came upon this font today in a magazine and found it very beautiful. How can I identify which font it is?

Sample Image

Best, --Cacofonie (talk) 21:23, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I used "what the font" (google it) and think it's a bold version of Jiffy? Comet Tuttle (talk) 21:40, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Storing data in the 1980s or earlier?

"For decades, Target has collected vast amounts of data on every person who regularly walks into one of its stores." <-- How has this been stored for "decades"? Does that mean 1980? Earlier? How was it stored back then? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 22:52, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Magnetic tape data storage. — Edokter (talk) — 23:04, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Anything from 1992 or earlier would be for "decades". RudolfRed (talk) 23:32, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

See also punched card. Warofdreams talk 14:02, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I remember disk storage from the 1970s. --Phil Holmes (talk) 16:22, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, eight-inch and five-and-a-quarter-inch floppies took over from magnetic tape and multi-platter hard disc packs in the late 70s for some applications. Dbfirs 22:39, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Halo Remake and 3D TV hack for 2 players on the same full screen?

Does anyone here know if Halo: Combat Evolved Anniversary supports that weird ugly 3D hack which allows both players to see their own full 2D screen while playing on the same console? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 22:55, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Charge Phone on Windows

I have Windows on my laptop. I plug in my phone to charge it and it doesn't charge. I have been told that you have to allow the phone to charge in Windows. I cannot figure out how to do that. Is there a "let my phone charge" setting? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.106.182.66 (talk) 23:13, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

To conserve power, not all laptop USB ports are typically wired for that sort of discharge, try another one / consult the manual. ¦ Reisio (talk) 02:46, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

You need to make sure that the device drivers are installed for the phone or else windows will not know what device it is, or to send power to charge it. If you're stuck, could you tell us what phone it is? Have you tried to do it on other computers? Mrlittleirish 11:39, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

February 20

Ubuntu on Windows

I currently have a dual-boot system with Ubuntu and Windows installed on separate partitions. Is it possible to launch Ubuntu within Windows, using something like VirtualBox? Ideally I want to use the existing installation, and don't want to install Ubuntu all over again. --140.180.6.154 (talk) 04:52, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

You can use the freeware VMWare converter to convert your Ubuntu partition into a VMWare image. IIRC, VirtualBox is able to import such image files. This will of course result in two separate Ubuntu installations - changes made when running one will not be reflected in the other. If you want that option there may be another solution of which I am unaware. AJSham 12:12, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

VMware and QEMU can do that in certain situations. ¦ Reisio (talk) 14:59, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

In what ways, and what situations? Can you point me to a tutorial about how to do this? --140.180.6.154 (talk) 07:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Last I checked VMware could do it with separate PATA drives only, and QEMU theoretically can do any type of drive or partition. For QEMU there's some syntax like \\PhysicalDevice\0 (where 0 is the first device), but I've read a lot about being able to just use -hda /dev/sda or /dev/sdb3 (for [two] examples), too. Apparently it's a tricky business so you either run it read-only or your have to make some sort of write buffer. On Windows you'll want to use KQEMU with QEMU or it'll be quite slow. You can also try using QEMU (or better yet KVM, the in-kernel progression of QEMU) from Linux to boot your physical Windows install instead. ¦ Reisio (talk) 15:58, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Youtube playlists not working in Safari

Hello. I noticed a few days ago that my playlists weren't working on Youtube. It would load the first video and then any other video I tried to go to on the list would just play the first video again (despite the fact that it was labelled as the video I was supposed to be going to). I then tried playing several other user's playlists and found the same thing. How do I fix this? I'm using Safari Version 5.0.6 and I don't think I need to update anything. Thanks! 129.3.151.202 (talk) 06:56, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

do you have javascript disãbled? 190.60.93.218 (talk) 13:13, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, it says it's enabled. 129.3.151.202 (talk) 01:52, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

February 21

Cloud storage service with password-based sharing

Can anyone tell me of a free cloud storage service where a folder or a file can be made public but a password must be required to actually view the file? I don't mean encryption. Also, it should have unlimited versioning, if possible. --Melab±1 ☎ 00:38, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

You can encrypt the file with tools such as 7zip and Truecrypt, and store the file on any unencrypted storage service. This has the benefit of allowing different passwords for different files. 75.144.36.137 (talk) 15:39, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Like I said, I don't mean encryption. But, thank you anyways. --Melab±1 ☎ 02:38, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Annoying menu on a website

At http://www.kbsz.hu/polebisz/index.html I am trying to access menus. The javascript menus appear when I hover my mouse over an item, but when I move my cursor to click the items, the items disappear.

How do I access the content? WhisperToMe (talk) 00:39, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Try it with Internet Explorer. Moondyne (talk) 00:45, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

It seems to work with Safari on Mac. Not all computers have IE. RudolfRed (talk) 01:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, guys! It works fine on IE! It seems like it's messing up on Firefox. WhisperToMe (talk) 01:04, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I usually use Firefox, but some websites don't work correctly with it. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 03:57, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Picking a PIC

Hi,

I've been given a bundle of C code and a circuit diagram to build a particular PIC-based device. However, rather than build it exactly as the original designer did, I want to add a couple of extra capabilities. I'm a Java programmer with very little embedded experience, but looking at the existing code I think I can probably muddle through OK on the software side. The problem is hardware - the original developer said that he was running right up to the limit on program memory size, and indeed there are pieces of code in the source that have been deemed non-essential and commented out to fit the object code into the device. There's no way I'm going to be able to optimise what he couldn't, so I need more memory.

The specified device is an 18F26K22. I've been trying to find a PIC which is as similar as possible in every way (since I'll probably struggle to adapt the code for anything very different) but has enough extra program memory to take my additions. However, as a non hardware type, I'll admit to being somewhat flummoxed by the Microchip catalogue.

Can anyone suggest a suitable chip that's like an 18F26K22 but bigger?

Thanks.

-- Pete — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.184.230 (talk) 01:30, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

How about the PIC18F67J11, which has double the program memory? It's from the same series (PIC18), has just a bit more RAM, and a few extra features. Looks like it only comes in QFP, which is probably harder for the amateur electronics hobbyist; but you can also look at 18F27J13 and 18F27J53. These come in DIP packages; they have more program memory; but a tiny bit less RAM than your original chip. Nimur (talk) 02:09, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for those suggestions. The J11 looks interesting - although it's only available in QFP, I found a company which will sell me one soldered to a DIP daughterboard - so it's still an option. I do notice that all three chips are slightly slower than the original; I'll have to check with the developer whether he's maxing out CPU speed as well as everything else. Hopefully not.

Cheers,

-- Pete — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.184.230 (talk) 19:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Looking up very old websites

I'm trying to find out the URL of the government of the Netherlands in 1998 to 1999. I am trying to determine what information it had about the Netherlands Aviation Safety Board (Raad voor de Luchtvaart), a government agency that was abolished in 1999 Any help would be greatly appreciated WhisperToMe (talk) 06:04, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I'm on the right track, but try this. Cheers! G.R.O.S.S (talk) 12:10, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip! I have been familiar with the web.archive.org tool, but I'll see if the State Department archives have any links WhisperToMe (talk) 22:21, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

learning html

Hi. I'm teaching myself to use seamonkey and would like to download a sample html file that I can edit in small steps. Can anyone suggest a good, example of best practice to start with? Something more complicated than Hello World, but not too difficult would be good. Robinh (talk) 08:33, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I don't know of any collection of (properly coded) totally made layouts for you to look at, but I can just give you my usual list of links, which combined will get you the vast majority of what you might want:

The most important:

• http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/
• http://validator.w3.org/
• http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

Refs:

• http://w3.org/TR/html401/
• http://w3.org/TR/html401/index/elements.html
• http://w3.org/TR/html401/index/attributes.html
• http://w3.org/TR/html5/
• http://w3.org/TR/CSS21/propidx.html
• http://w3.org/QA/TheMatrix

Guts:

• http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssLayouts
• http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/
• http://css.maxdesign.com.au/floatutorial/

Support:

• http://www.webdevout.net/browser-support-html
• http://www.webdevout.net/browser-support-css
• http://www.webdevout.net/browser-support-dom
• http://www.webdevout.net/browser-support-ecmascript

Icing:

• http://www.mezzoblue.com/tests/revised-image-replacement/
• http://wellstyled.com/css-nopreload-rollovers.html

Live support:

• http://webchat.freenode.net/?nick=Robinh&channels=#websites

¦ Reisio (talk) 16:13, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

(OP) Thanks for this, Reisio. I've been looking at the links. All of them seem to be quite 'advanced' in terms of being very complicated (at least, the html code looks difficult). Is there a simpler one out there? Sorry to be unclear in my original request. Robinh (talk) 21:04, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

http://www.yourhtmlsource.com/ & http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/1-introduction-to-the-web-standards-cur/#toc & http://w3fools.com/#what-should-be-done aren't too bad. ¦ Reisio (talk) 23:46, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

This site has a nice guide with lots of examples AvrillirvA (talk) 22:38, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

That site is fairly awful. ¦ Reisio (talk) 23:46, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Why do you say that, Reisio? Robinh (talk) 00:15, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The first page with code skips over the doctype declaration, which is vital, the second details deprecated elements and suggests you use invalid syntax, and at that point I looked no further (though truthfully I consider any of those damning individually). ¦ Reisio (talk) 03:26, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I like w3schools.com. Once you exhaust the info on that site, then you can reference the specification at w3.org/TR/html401/.—Best Dog Ever (talk) 00:21, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I personally find w3schools to have a lot of junk, poor explanations, often quite horrible examples, and most are definitely not best practices. See this site for further elaboration. --Mr.98 (talk) 03:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

(OP) I'm still not 100% certain that my question was clear enough. All I need is a basic 'get you started' web page from where I can download the html content and play with it in seamonkey. I don't want anything clever, no active content or videos or widgets, just the basics (I need to design a website as part of some course I'm studying). I don't want to start from a blank piece of paper in seamonkey because I fear that I'll produce a very boring web page. Thanks, Robinh (talk) 03:28, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Which is why I recommended W3Schools. It's very beginner friendly. What you need, Robinh, is just to get started writing web pages. If you get bogged down in theory, best practices, and terminology, you will become bored and forget most of it. The sooner you can start creating web pages -- no matter how simple -- the better.

I am a web designer and developer. I do web design, every day, in an office, 50 hours a week. And I do not find the critiques on the site Mr. 98 cited to be justified at all. They're more snobbery than fair criticism. It recommends against the use of WYSIWYG editors: "Professional web developers do not recommend the use of WYSIWYG editors." But when you edit pages as large and as complex as I do, you have to use WYSIWYG editors. I just use them to navigate the code. I don't actually format the page in them, but you need them to find your way around the page. The fact that I do web design as a living makes me a professional and I have no qualms recommending a WYSIWYG editor so long as you keep an eye on the code.

Other critiques could only be considered inaccurate from a Deconstructionist point of view. It is technically true that <h1> doesn't add a blank line above and beneath it, but rather a margin. It is a simplification, but it doesn't matter. What really matters is that you note the space it adds above and beneath it. You can deduce it's not an empty line by highlighting the line. It's harmless simplification that aids understanding for beginners more than anything else.--Best Dog Ever (talk) 05:57, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

(OP) thanks guys. The w3schools site is just great for my purposes. Maybe one day I'll understand the issues raised above. Kia Ora, Robinh (talk) 07:25, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

blocking unsolicited junk mail

I'm tired of receiving unsolicited junk emails from online dating services. Is there any way to block them?24.90.204.234 (talk) 08:35, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

That depends. What a) mail service provider (Gmail, Hotmail, AOL - basically the bit after the @ in your address) and b) email client (Outlook, Thunderbird, Mail for Mac or simple webmail - how you view your emails) do you use? - Cucumber Mike (talk) 09:02, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Get yourself a new email address and don't tell anyone what it is except the people you can trust (ie. your very closest friends and family). Use a disposable/temporary account for everything else. Astronaut (talk) 13:52, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I use Hotmail.24.90.204.234 (talk) 14:22, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Ok. This page gives you the lowdown, and options for dealing with junk/spam emails. These are reactive methods - they only work to stop emails from people/companies who already have your address by blocking their emails or moving them to a junk folder. This page from the UK government has some good proactive suggestions for making sure these people don't get your details in the future. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 15:32, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Hotmail uses Bayesian spam filtering, so marking messages as "Junk" helps it determine whether future emails are junk, even if they come from a different source, simply based on message similarity. So it's sort of proactive. Paul (Stansifer) 22:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

If the messages have many of the same words in them, you can create a filter: [7]. It will take messages that match the filter and put them in a folder of your choice (or simply delete them -- your choice).--Best Dog Ever (talk) 06:09, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Missing email

Simply.... I can not find 2 e-mails I wrote and sent to my boss. After writing and sending 4 different e-mails to him, he said he only received 2. And he asked me to re-send one of the ones that has disappeared. NOW THIS IS WIERD....I had a heads up from a co-worker that he talked as though he hadn't heard from me on two of the important ones so earlier that day I went to check to make sure I had sent them. I went to google and typed mail.yahoo.com. Clicked on the topsite, which opened my email. I am not real savvy with e-mails. I went to my 'sent' emails and opened one up, read it, noted date sent and to close the email I go back to the heading sent, pulled up anpther, then another then another. Somehow, somewhere, the 2nd email sent on the 5th disappeared from my computer and so has the most important one from saturdays!!! My boss wants to see saturday's and it may be my job if i can't show him it or at least I sent one that day to him. I did. I saw it just before it was gone. Jeff said I used an incorrect email address. I I've seen both used I thought!?? anyway, I sent 2 feb 5, 2012, 1 sat. xx:xx, and 1 sent friday, 5:37 am. He got the first two but not the next 2. The last email I wrote had 2 cc. I know for fact 1 cc received it but who I sent it to, Jeff, didn't get it. Here's another weird...the 1st email sent, feb 5, 2012 remains in SENT. The 2nd email sent, feb 5, 2012, has vanished. The 3rd and most important email, saturday, has also disappeared and the 4th email I sent found it's way into my INBOX. Go figure?!! Please, pretty pretty please find that short no titled email. You could save my life, literally 'cause I would keep my job. Cost is not important. That is how important this is to me. I thank you so much for your time and I hope my explanation is what you needed. Sincerely, forever in your debt, one very tired and stressed, Stephanie Anne76.254.42.86 (talk) 09:48, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

(I've added a header to separate your question from the previous one). Have you checked in your "Drafts" folder? Sometimes if there's a problem while you're writing or sending an email - say, if your connection goes down briefly or you exit without clicking "send" - most email programs put the unsent email in a folder called "drafts" ready to be sent properly. It'll be in the list of folders, next to Inbox, Sent and Junk. Smurrayinchester 10:43, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Also, of course, worth looking in the Trash folder, if it hasn't been emptied. - David Biddulph (talk) 12:54, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Did you cc. ayone into either of the missing emails? If so, they may have copies. --Tagishsimon (talk) 15:45, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

For clarification, do you mean you saw emails 2-5 in your sent but later they disappeared or you never saw them in the sent? Nil Einne (talk) 16:15, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

If your Yahoo e-mail is having problems, I suggest you get another account, such as with Google's free Gmail. Also, until you get this resolved, you'd better print out copies of everything, just in case. Note that if somebody got you CC, you could have them forward that on, to prove that you're not lying about having sent them. (Presumably you won't get fired unless your boss thinks you are lying.) Another hint is to always CC yourself, and then check your inbox, as a way of verifying that it was really sent. StuRat (talk) 06:03, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Inkjet ink cartridges

How does the ink level detector work? --92.25.104.255 (talk) 14:43, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

At least in some cartridges, it doesn't. That is, the printer keeps track of (very roughly) how much ink it thinks it's used (and stores that in the little EEPROM in the cartridge) and the driver then just estimates how much ink the cartridge should have, given that amount of printing. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 14:47, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, though some makes are less bad at it than others. Plenty of research online. ¦ Reisio (talk) 16:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Reisio, can you recommend any brand which is not a rip-off, which do not tie me to its cartridges, which do not force me to buy all three colors when I only need black? XPPaul (talk) 22:38, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

For not buying colors when you only need black, you want a 2 cartridge system, with black in one cartridge and three colors in the other. This allows you to change the black cartridge independently. Even better is a 4 cartridge system where you can also change each color independently. The prices are still a rip-off, though. I've tried injecting ink into cartridges as they run dry, with some success (some manufacturers have found a way to prevent this, by having the chip on the cartridge die when it runs dry, for instance).

If you have a large enough print volume, laser printers are the way to go, as their toner cartridges last much longer, and this will make up for the higher initial purchase price. Unlike inkjet printers, you have to choose between less expensive black-and-white laser printers and expensive color ones. A good compromise might be black-and-white laser printer and a color inkjet, assuming most of your prints will be in black-and-white. StuRat (talk) 05:52, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

On my Brother multifunction inkjet, the cartridge has a narrow ridge on one side that fits into a slot in the printer. There seems to be a light and sensor on opposite sides of this slot, shining through the ink inside the ridge on the cartridge. When the cartridge is full the light is blocked by the ink, when it nears empty the light shines through into the sensor. I can simulate a full cartridge by putting a small piece of tape on the ridge to block the light. The yellow ink has a small float, presumably because the ink is not opaque enough to block the light. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.184.230 (talk) 19:18, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

'Cutting' Patterns

Hi, simple question, Is there a 'free' file format for storing industrial cutting patterns ?

There were two specific applications I was wanting to know about this in relation to:

• Sewing patterns

• Cutting layouts for jigsaw puzzles...

Any thoughts on what formats these use, other than DXF/DWG ?

Sfan00 IMG (talk) 15:22, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure about these specific applications, but it is likely that they will use some kind of vector path. It is feasible that a pattern stored as SVG for example, could be imported into the application that controls the device in question. This, of course, would depend on the capabilities of the software used. I personally have been able to import vector images in several different file formats for use on a vinyl cutter. -=# Amos E Wolfe ^talk #=- 22:31, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Another vector format that might work is HPGL. StuRat (talk) 05:44, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Alternative to Archive.org (The WayBackMachine)?

I hope there isn't one, but I have to ask anyway. Is there any other project that "collects historical websites" and make them available like they do? It's a major privacy issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 23:21, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Internet Archive#Similar_projects; in fairness, the truly major privacy issue is letting people who don't realize what is and isn't personal information online at all (because personal information being online long enough for almost anyone to view it is enough to cause real problems). ¦ Reisio (talk) 23:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I looked through them but couldn't find anything that seemed at all like Archive.org (thank god). It was just nonsense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 00:18, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

have you bothered to look at archive.org and how easy it is to remove stuff? if anything there should be a way of stopping new owners of old website removing stuff that was meant to be public. The deleting of old stuff is like being able to walk in to a newspaper and burn backcopies at random. Agree the main privacy worry on the internet is the countless clueless people who stick stupid photos and videos up onto things like facebook and utube. Dmcq (talk) 21:28, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

February 22

Does partitioning a disk erase data

I have a Western Digital external hard drive with some data on it. It is currently FAT formatted so it cannot hold files larger than 4 GB and it has data on it that I want to keep. I want to add an HFS+ partition but I want to keep the data I already have on it which I cannot back up to my computer because I don't have enough space. If I add a partition to the disk, will it erase/overwrite all the data I have on it? --Melab±1 ☎ 02:34, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

If your drive's current partition has used up all of the available space, you would have to resize the partition to free up unpartitioned space for the new partition. Resizing can be done safely but it is an activity that is fraught with danger so a backup is always recommended. You can use something like gparted (use a linux boot disk for this) which I've found to be the most reliable utility for partitioning. If you already have unpartitioned space then you should be able to add the new HFS partition safely... but if it were my data I would find a means to back it up, even if you have to borrow a USB stick for a day. Sandman30s (talk) 08:12, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

... or if you have lots of valuable data on the drive (maybe enough to fill a dozen USB flash memory devices?), borrow another external hard drive with plenty of empty space, or another computer or laptop with a large hard drive to backup your data, or use one of the internet backup facilities. If your data is valuable, it would be wise to have at least one separate backup somewhere else as a matter of policy because hard drives can fail unexpectedly. Dbfirs 09:09, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, backup your files. I know that first-hand: I lost all my files once when a repartitioning went wrong (the computer froze). I had to reformat the entire drive. -- Luk ^talk 09:37, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

There's no reason why resizing a partition should be a dangerous operation. It's not fundamentally different from any other file system operation. The only reason to be less trustful of resizing is that it's less common than other filesystem operations, so it's more likely that the code has undetected bugs. But gparted is pretty widely used and reliable as far as I know. Or you could use Windows Vista or later to shrink the partition. That functionality is built into the file system driver, and the file relocation part of it is used by millions of people daily, since their machines are configured to defragment in the background. -- BenRG (talk) 21:56, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I respectfully beg to differ. Partitioning operations are not operating system file operations, they are low-level storage operations. Like Luk, I had a mishap with Partition Magic (tragic!) where the software froze in the middle of a resize operation and it was hell trying to recover my data thereafter. gparted works like a charm but there is still no guarantee of success. It's also possible that it's a knowledge factor and you choose the wrong option in gparted, what with physical/logical/extensions/etc. Sandman30s (talk) 07:52, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

The OP wants to repartition smaller. I don't think a repartition moves data first, so wouldn't data that is on the disk past the size of the new partition be lost? I'd certainly make a backup first. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 22:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

You're right about what I want to do. Currently, the external drive consists of a single FAT32 partition. My computer has about 3 GB of space left so now I now want to free up some more by moving some files—that I don't access as often as I used to—over to the external drive, but they are larger than 4 GB (they are probably mostly virtual hard drives that I have set up for VMware and VirtualBox). I want to add an HFS+ partition to the external drive to handle these files. It would not surprise me if some defragmenting and data consolidation would be necessary to do that. --Melab±1 ☎ 22:40, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Exactly how did Wikipedia get so popular?

So obviously, Wikipedia is one of the most popular websites on the planet. But I'm wondering, exactly how did it become popular? What was the actual trigger for Wikipedia to go from obscurity to fame? Around 2004, I was already seeing stuff about Wikipedia, and it was only around 3 years old! So how did Wikipedia become popular anyway? Was it endorsed by someone famous, was it featured in a magazine or newspaper, or was it through word-of-mouth? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 02:43, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

All of the above. It wasn't an overnight sensation. See History_of_Wikipedia#2001 though if you want one definitive year that put it on the map — news stories, geek sites, and so on. But it still took another two years to reach massive penetration into the mainstream. Its growth followed a roughly exponential function in the first years — such functions take awhile to build, but quickly get gigantic. By 2005 or so even my grandmother had heard of it. --Mr.98 (talk) 03:03, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Also, Google likes wikipedia, which helped. Robinh (talk) 03:22, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, being at the top of almost every Google result certainly helped. Google probably likes us because we link article with similar concepts. SEO done right :P -- Luk ^talk 09:38, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I think that a big factor is that people would write cross-reference-style links to Wikipedia articles in their prose on other websites, as a way of providing background without breaking flow. This makes it look like everyone thinks that Wikipedia is relevant to what they're talking about (which, to be fair, is pretty much correct). So, with PageRank-like systems, being a canonical reference resource is just about perfect SEO. Paul (Stansifer) 19:51, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It was the first wiki of its kind, AFAIK. ¦ Reisio (talk) 03:28, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

this (switching HDMI cables)

Is it okay to switch an hdmi cable (plug-unplug)between two devices while the devices are still connected to the mains, i mean theyre turned off but the plugs are still in the sockets — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.35.11.229 (talk) 05:36, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I added to your title to make it useful. StuRat (talk) 05:41, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I think it's fine as those cables carry digital/optical signals and not mains power. It's even better that your devices are turned off, but it's not necessary. It's very much the same as, for example, plugging the RCI cables of your camera into your TV... you don't have to turn either device off. I've been swapping HDMI cables for years with no apparent ill effect. Sandman30s (talk) 07:57, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Annoying Windows behaviour

In my Windows XP, SP3, if I try to drag a window by it's title bar, and accidentally release and reclick on it while dragging, it maximizes the window. Can this feature be disabled ? StuRat (talk) 06:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

See [8].--Best Dog Ever (talk) 06:14, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Close, but no cigar. That's how to disable the Aero Snap feature in Windows 7. StuRat (talk) 06:20, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh. My mistake. I forgot you said Windows XP. Honestly I cannot recreate that behavior on my system, because you have to stop dragging in order to click. I know you can double-click on a title bar to maximize it, but I've never heard of a window maximizing by single-clicking (unless you click on the maximize button, of course).--Best Dog Ever (talk) 06:24, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Maybe I do double click. My mouse button can do that when I try to single click. How can I disable "maximize on double click" ? StuRat (talk) 06:54, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Probably not, although buying a new mouse is probably best before you double click on something harmful by mistake. Mouses are quite cheap, now... -- Luk ^talk 09:40, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It seems not to be natively possible in Windows, but I think you can do it with Window Blinds. It costs, but you get a free trial. There might be a free alternative that does it as well, but I can't think of one right now. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 11:05, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

You can adjusst the speed/sensitivity of double-click in the Control Panel / Mouse settings. Non-intuitively (to me), you would move the slider to "fast". --LarryMac | Talk 16:18, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Perl - getting the value of the ones place

Resolved

If a user is asked for a number, I want to be able to tell what the ones place contains in Perl. So if they gave a response of 15, I want to know that the ones place value is 5. How can I do that without regular expressions? I can get things like the tens place by dividing the number by 10 but how do I do that with the ones place? I thought it would have something to do with modulo but now I'm not sure. Dismas|^(talk) 09:32, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I can't remember the perl syntax for modulo, but it's usually something involving the percent sign: so 15 % 10 would return 5. Yes, here it is: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Perl_Programming/Operators Tinfoilcat (talk) 09:37, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Yep, got it. I was just coming back to say that I figured out the same thing. Thanks though!! Dismas|^(talk) 09:53, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Make sure that you're using the absolute value if the number could be negative. I don't know how Perl's mod operator works, but until you check, opposite it before remaindering. KyuubiSeal (talk) 01:59, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

computer

what is the importance of the formula bar in ms excel — Preceding unsigned comment added by 223.176.108.249 (talk) 15:58, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It displays the contents of the cell which has focus. It serves as an area where the contents of the cell - whether data or formula - can be edited. And it provides dialogue boxes which assist in putting together formulii when you press the fx characters to the left of the formula box (at least, in Excel 2003). --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:19, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Without it, Excel would be of little use except as the "dumb paperlike inventory/database sheet you have to update by hand" that most people use it as. 188.6.76.0 (talk) 18:11, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Not really, as the user interface allows users to enter data and formulii into cells; the formula bar is akin to a second window on the focused cell and as such redundant. --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:11, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Google and privacy

Googlebot crawls any given page many times. What happens with the old versions? They certainly don't seem to be made available in public, but are they stored on Google's servers? Is this known at all? What do they officially say? It's bad enough that WayBackmachine's bots archive pages unless you tell it actively not to, but the thought that Google might at some point reveal historical versions of webpages makes my skin crawl. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 18:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't know how long Google keeps old data. You can control what Google and other web bots scan by using a robots.txt file. RudolfRed (talk) 18:37, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Bots that adhere to that formality, anyways. ¦ Reisio (talk) 18:54, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Hardly. You can just turn it off/on, and that's just for data from the point of whenever you figure that out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 18:53, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

(EC with below) I suggest you read the article. Robots.txt allows you to control what parts of a site bots are allowed to visit. You can control by bot, or just ban them all. If you don't want to ban bots from crawling your site but do want to stop them making publicly available copies/archives, while this isn't supported by robots.txt, you can use robots meta tags as I mentioned here Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Computing/2011 November 25 and explained here [9]. This is respected by most of the major bots (including webcitation) although not apparently the archive.org bot [10]. Archive.org will remove historic archived content on a page if they find a new robots.txt disallowing it [11] although obviously it won't happen until they check your robots.txt again and perhaps allowing for some processing time. (Well it's not clear to me if they delete the content, or just make it unavailable.) It wouldn't surprise me if Google etc to likewise if they ever decide to make older copies of pages available. Of course, if you'r so paranoid about content being archived, your best bet is probably be to disallow all bots from your entire website and check your logs regularly to look for bots not respecting robots.txt although even that is far from a guarantee. However I somewhat agree with Reisio here, if you are sticking info you want to keep private onto the publicly accessible web, and expect trying to stop well documents bots will be enough to guarantee it stays private, you have another thing coming. In fact, since it's along time since 1994, if you weren't aware of bots and how to control them, you probably shouldn't have been administrating a website anyway. Nil Einne (talk) 20:15, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

1994? What?

robots.txt has existed since 1994. Yahoo and Lycos ditto and AltaVista was established in 1995. Internet Archive in 1996. Google and MSN Search in 1998. It was understandable in 1994 for someone to be unfamiliar with common bots and the well documented ways to control them, but it's now 2012 and anyone not aware probably shouldn't be adminstrating a website. From some of the OPs other questions, perhaps it's not surprising they're trying to hide stuff they've done. Nil Einne (talk) 22:48, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Providing a robots.txt file does not enforce any data protection. It's the technical equivalent of asking "please," and hoping that the robot plays nice. If you want to deny access, you should use a securely encrypted authentication mechanism, and deny delivery of content to any un-authenticated party. This is actually made clear in the robots.txt article. I would go so far as to say "robots.txt is worse than useless." It merely provides a web administrator a false sense of security, without actually protecting the data in any way. Nimur (talk) 23:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Controlling data expiration is difficult, because each subsequent processor of information has to adhere to the expiration policy. For example, what if some linguist is doing some sort of analysis on n-grams collected from crawling the web: are they obligated to expire their corpus some period of time? Or even the results of the analysis? Are people obligated to forget things they read on the Web after the content expires? What it means to crawl or not crawl is well-defined. Data expiration is not well-defined, unless you use a definition that is far too strict to follow. Publicization of information is practically irreversible. Paul (Stansifer) 20:01, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Considering googles massive resources it would be surprising if they weren't archiving old cache data. And even if you somehow stopped all crawlers, got all internet preservation sites to delete their archives, there's nothing stopping a normal user from saving a copy themselves and uploading it somewhere. If there is something you don't want archived, don't put it on the internet to begin with. 82.45.62.107 (talk) 23:04, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It's extremely tiresome to hear this constantly. OBVIOUSLY this wouldn't be a problem if nobody posted sensitive/badly thought through content, but they DO, and not seldom about or involving others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 01:11, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Google, of course, does not care about this last observation, and will only care about it if there's legislation somewhere allowing the authors or hosters of content to order search engines, archives, and, I suppose, all other users to delete a given piece of content, and mandating that these orders be followed. Comet Tuttle (talk) 04:38, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

February 23

Rigamarole

In Windows 7, to connect to my ISP, the procedure is: Control Panel/Network & Internet/ Network & Sharing Centre/"connect to a network"/"connect or disconnect"/click name of ISP/click "connect"/click in window to use the stored userid and password.

I can cope with this rigamarole but it is really a problem for some people who use the computer.

I made a desktop shortcut which goes straight to "Network & Sharing Centre" but that still requires remembering five clicks. Is there a way to bring this down to one or two clicks? Perhaps with a DOS command?

Thanks, Wanderer57 (talk) 03:00, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I take it this is a dial-up connection? Does this page help? -- BenRG (talk) 05:24, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

How to express"a textbox is blank" in VB 2005?

Like

If (textbox1 is blank or textbox2 is blank) then

...

Else

...

End If

How to express this?--202.117.145.240 (talk) 07:28, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

If textbox1.Text = "" then
    asdf
Else
    asdf
End If

→Στc. 07:35, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

February 19

Why doesn't the common cold infect nonhumans?

Why doesn't the common cold infect nonhuman mammals? Comet Tuttle (talk) 01:55, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

It does. Not exactly the same viruses as infect humans (they have evolved to use us as host and wouldn't be very effective in other hosts), but animals can certainly get colds. I just Googled "animals getting colds" and found loads of sites talking about it. --Tango (talk) 02:09, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Note that outside the world of farming, you're very unlikely to get large numbers of strange animals packed together as closely as humans get in shops, offices, cinemas, trains, etc, which limits the potential for a disease like the cold to spread, which is why you might not see dogs or cats catching colds as often as humans do, and why cage-bound animals like hamsters may appear to never catch infections. Smurrayinchester 09:24, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Mating the winner of a fight

Although it's intuitively clear that females prefer to mate with the winner, I want to know how common is that in general among mammals? In humans, it's certainly not always the case. 88.8.66.12 (talk) 02:32, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I think most animals that engage in mating contests fight until one contestant submits rather than having either contestant get significantly injured (although there are certainly exceptions). I those cases, I expect the contest would just restart if one of the contestants tried to mate with the female after submitting. --Tango (talk) 02:52, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Is there any animal in which it's "always" the case? --140.180.6.154 (talk) 07:29, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

It would be fairly safe to say in species whose main reproductive groups are usually one male and a group of females, where the male holds his place through fending off intruding solo males from time to time, this would always be the case ("always" being a very strong word, as there can be sneaky exceptions). Things like lions, gorillas, and even kangaroos tend to hold to the 'mate only with winning male' rule. In humans this may have been more common in more historic societies where a powerful chief or similar could maintain a large group of females, such as the stereotypical depiction of a harem. --jjron (talk) 07:54, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

It "may have been" - but it almost certainly wasn't. In any case, biologically speaking 'historical societies' are a blip: we are the result of 'prehistorical' ones. And what what little evidence we have from contemporary hunter-gatherer societies suggests that something approximating to 'serial monogamy' was more likely to have been the norm. And if you are going to compare us with other mammals, it seems logical to compare us first with our nearest relatives, the apes. Not that this helps much, given that one can find more or less anything from indifferent promiscuity Bonobos to (apparent) monogamy Gibbons. As for Gorillas, I well recall a lecture on primate sociobiology, which demonstrated all to well that neither the 'dominant male' silverback, nor the 'submissive' females would seem to got much excitement out of mating - hardly surprising, given the silverback's equipment (think of the cap on a ballpoint pen), or the duration of the encounter, which rarely exceeded ten seconds. If you want to understand human sexuality, study people... AndyTheGrump (talk) 08:21, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Gorrilas don't pair up - generally one male that can dominate other males will collect a harem. I recall an article in Scientific American a few years ago where the author had established that if a species pairs up to raise young to independence (eg humans, many species of birds), sex is highly pleasurable for both sexes, and sex is frequent, playing a bonding role, and rape is unusual - and where species do not pair up (domestic cats being an excellent example) to raise young, sex is only marginally pleasurable for the male, and probably not at all for the female. For such species, sex is only for reproduction and probably constitutes rape. The frequency and pleasurability of sex does not map at all to the closeness of one species to another, but extremely well to how the young are raised. Generally, species that pair up, the pairs are less likely to influenced by how dominant the males is with other males, and almost all males get partners. In species that do not pair up, weaker males may never get any sex. All this seems to hold, more or less, for reptiles, birds, and mammals. So, yes, you can learn something of human sexuallity by studying completely different species. Ratbone121.215.64.242 (talk) 10:12, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Elephant seals, horses (actually all extant equids), springbuck (and many other antelope), and many other herding species have dominant teritorial males who fight to maintain control of a territory and the sole right to mate with females in the territory. Roger (talk) 09:29, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

But, can females "move abroad" to another male? Is some kind of unpredictability in the process? 188.76.228.174 (talk) 14:39, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Having watched Red Deer in London's royal parks often enough during the rutting season, I'd say that the hinds are well-motivated to 'move abroad', often taking advantage of confrontations between stags to break away from the herd - whether they'd behave in the same manner in a more natural environment, where there was a risk of predation involved with being alone, I'm not sure. It is also questionable as to whether the herds have 'territories' at all - instead they wander around as a group within an area shared with other herds. It would be interesting to learn just how cohesive a 'herd' is over time anyway, during the rut. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:43, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Occurance of multiple cancer types

This is NOT a request for medical advice - I am just currious. A friend has been told she has 3 different types of breast cancer (in one breast!) - i.e. each tumour is of a different type. How often does this occur? Ratbone120.145.28.184 (talk) 03:32, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The best data is for the US state of Connecticut, in which slightly under 2% of cancer patients were diagnosed with at least two primary tumors simultaneously [12]. I'm not sure what the probability is for three simultaneous cancers in the same breast, but presumably it's even smaller. Although if a person is genetically predisposed to developing breast cancer, then perhaps the chance is actually not small at all. Someguy1221 (talk) 10:34, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. If all of the cancers were independent events, this would be extremely rare. However, whichever factors caused one of the cancers are likely to have also contributed to the others. A genetic predisposition is one factor, but there could also be exposure to radiation, carcinogenic chemicals (perhaps due to smoking), poor nutrition, age, obesity, a sedentary lifestyle, and a depressed immune system (due to stress, disease, etc.). StuRat (talk) 21:28, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Many thanks, especially to Someguy. The papers hows that it is unusual to get 2 simulataneous tomours. Since this would include simultaneous tumours of the same type, tumours of diferent type must be a sub-set, so three diferent types must be quite rare. Ratbone121.221.28.225 (talk) 14:49, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

How does intake of food acids affect the human body?

How does intake of food acids affect the human body? Thanks. 112.118.205.3 (talk) 09:18, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Humans cannot survive without proper intake of essential amino acids --SupernovaExplosion ^Talk 12:03, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Certain essential vitamins are also acids. Without Ascorbic acid, for example, you can get scurvy. The name "ascorbic acid" even means, broadly, "prevents scurvy". --Jayron32 14:02, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Carnitine

Do carnitine have any real effect in reducing body fat? This says "studies do show that oral carnitine reduces fat mass". Then why do it says there is no scientific evidence for this fact? If a person start taking carnitine supplement, will he become dependent on supplement i.e. face problems with normal fat metabolism after supplement withdrawal? --SupernovaExplosion ^Talk 15:35, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

That link says "Although L-carnitine has been marketed as a weight loss supplement, there is no scientific evidence to show that it works. Some studies do show that oral carnitine reduces fat mass, increases muscle mass, and reduces fatigue, which may contribute to weight loss in some people." So, the increase in muscle mass may be more than the decrease in fat mass, so won't necessarily lead to weight loss. And "some studies" hardly sounds definitive. StuRat (talk) 21:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Acetyl-L-carnitine and lipoic acid are recommended supplements for older people, the older you are the less your body produces of them, see e.g. here:

Finally, I take 400 mg of lipoic acid and 1,000 mg of acetyl-L-carnitine (ALCAR) daily. This is based on the research by LPI's Tory Hagen on the role of these "age-essential" micronutrients in improving mitochondrial function and energy metabolism with age, and the research in my own laboratory indicating that lipoic acid has anti-inflammatory properties and lowers body weight and serum triglycerides in experimental animals. In addition, lipoic acid is well known to stimulate the insulin receptor and improve glucose metabolism, and is used in Europe to treat diabetic complications.

Count Iblis (talk) 00:43, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

In that case, it's quite possible that the supplement will have no effect on those who already have enough. StuRat (talk) 05:47, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but people over the age of 35 are biogically "old", so they may already need it at that age. Someone at age 20 doesn't biologically age much over the course of a year, but someone at age 40 will biologically age much more significantly in a period of one year. If you could keep the rate of aging the same as it is for 20 years old regardless of age, then you would live for many thousands of years. It has been suggested that taking cheap over the counter supplements like vitamin D, acetyl-L-carnitine, fish oils etc. could significantly slow the aging process. In a recent article some persons were were interviewed who have taken such supplements for many years, one of them is 85 years old, but he is way above average fitness for someone of even age 60 let alone 85. He still competes in athletics, he participates in the 110 metres hurdles. Count Iblis (talk) 15:02, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Orbits of stars within globular clusters

Number 26 is what i'm trying to solve. I have calculated Cluster II has diameter twice as long as Cluster I. The answer for number 26 is square root of 2 or approximately 1.4142 times smaller. I was trying to solve it by approaching the period orbit formula ways. I know that it has to do something with how fast the star rotate around the clusters. It doesn't seem to me that the formula for period orbit can be applied to this. Can anyone show me how to get the answer and what formula to use? Thanks!Pendragon5 (talk) 20:06, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Watch your "rotations" and "revolutions"! While a galaxy rotates, its individual stars revolve about the galactic center. Globular clusters can't even be said to rotate as their star motion is pretty random (which is why they are not discs), though an individual star may revolve (or orbit) about the cluster. I've also changed your section title to reflect the nature of your question; hope you don't mind. -- ToE 00:52, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

This strikes me as a poorly worded question as its setup discusses the angular diameter (as observed from earth) of the globular clusters, leading to the conclusion that Cluster II has twice the diameter of Cluster I, though we are told they are of the same mass. It then asks about the ratio of the angular velocities of stars at the outer edge of the two clusters -- presumably with respect to the center of their respective cluster. Perhaps that should go without saying, but having just discussed the observed angular diameter, I would prefer if they explicitly indicated that they were not asking about the observed angular velocity.

Motion of stars within globular clusters is described at Globular cluster#N-body simulations, but that is certainly not what they are expecting to be solved here. I assume, as does the OP, that they are discussing stars which remain on the edge of the clusters in fairly circular orbits. (In highly elliptical orbits, their orbital angular velocities would be greatly reduced in the vicinity of apoapsis.) If Orbital period#Small body orbiting a central body applies (should it?), then the period is given by $2\pi\sqrt{a^3/GM}$ and the ratio of their periods would be 2^3/2, not the 2^1/2 suggested by the answer key.

But wait! Perhaps they have been asking about the observed angular velocity of stars moving across the face of the clusters all along -- would that throw in the factor of two we need? Alas, the faster star is in the closer, denser cluster. Its orbital angular velocity is 2^3/2 times that of the star in the more distant, less dense cluster, so with an orbit half the size, its orbital velocity is 2^1/2 times greater, and being half the distance from sol, its proper motion would be 2^3/2 times greater. (The coincidence coming from the setup of the problem.)

Were I the OP, I'd be rather perturbed that the two apparent errors encountered in the answer key (see #Formula doesn't work why?) both involve calculations of orbital periods. -- ToE 00:23, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Do you mean "orbital period" when you said OP? I'm kind of lost on the wording you used, sorry if i'm slow at understanding, when you said "Perhaps that should go without saying,". What should go without saying what? And you said "I would prefer if they explicitly indicated that they were not asking about the observed angular velocity." then at the bottom you said "Perhaps they have been asking about the observed angular velocity of stars moving across the face of the clusters all along". So are they asking about the observed angular velocity or not? And what do you mean by moving across the face of the cluster? You mean it's moving in the straight line across the diameter of the cluster? And some more info i forgot to add, perhaps it would help you explain to me better. Since the angle of Cluster II is half of the angle of Cluster I and they both have the same angular diameter so that's mean Cluster II and twice as further away as Cluster I. Therefore Cluster II has twice diameter as Cluster I. And i'm also confused on this statement "the faster star is in the closer, denser cluster". We don't know which one Cluster is denser than which. And sorry that i don't understand the second to the last of the paragraph of yours. Alright based from our calculation we know that Cluster I is rotating 2^3/2 faster than Cluster II then the next few lines... I have been trying to understand this but eventually i still don't get it. It's ok if you don't satisfied my confusing, i know you have tried you best to explain to me. If there is something you can explain further, please do.Pendragon5 (talk) 01:42, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

"OP" means "original poster", ie. the person that asked the question (so that's you!). --Tango (talk) 01:49, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Angular velocity is always with respect to some point, and I assume that the question is asking about the orbital angular velocity of the star and not the observed angular velocity from earth, and "perhaps that should go without saying" because if they were interested in the latter, they would probably have referred to it as proper motion. It is a bit confusing because I think they must be making a lot of unspoken assumptions. From my understanding of globular cluster, their stars typically do not follow elliptical orbits, but instead move about in complicated (chaotic?) patterns as they interact with the other bodies in the cluster until they are eventually ejected, and that this ejection process leads to a very slow evaporation of the cluster. For any calculation to be possible, I figure that they must be speaking of stars that don't just happen to be at the outer edge of the clusters at this moment, but which maintain a fairly circular orbit about the cluster at its outer edge. I don't know if this is the common behavior of stars at the periphery of globular clusters, but what else could they expect you to calculate?

Next, I'm assuming that if the two stars doesn't pass too close their neighbors, a "raisin embedded" shell theorem should allow us to calculate the orbital period via the Orbital period#Small body orbiting a central body formula, and this yields the 2^3/2 ratio. I understand that this is the value you got as well. (This is the point where I'm hoping that an astronomer will butt in and point out what we are doing wrong.)

Since the answer key says 2^1/2, I then tried to figure out how to make that work, possible by using the fact that one cluster was twice as far away as the other, and hoping that this 2 might cancel out a 2 in the 2^3/2 yielding 2^1/2. This could only come into play if we were supposed to be comparing the observed angular velocities -- the proper motion -- all along, and since no other configuration was specified, I considered that in which the stars' motions were entirely transverse (at right angles to the line of sight). This happens as the stars are moving across the face of the clusters as they are presented to earth. There is no real reason to assume any of this; I am grasping at straws, trying to make the answer key's 2^1/2 work.

So we know that the star at the outer edge of Cluster I (the smaller, denser cluster -- denser simply because it is of the same mass but half the diameter) is moving at an orbital angular velocity of 2^3/2 times that of the star at the outer edge of Cluster II, right? But the orbit size around the outer edge of Cluster I is half the size of that for Cluster II, so to maintain that 2^3/2 orbital angular velocity advantage, it only needs to be moving 2^1/2 times as fast as the other star in terms of actual orbital velocity (in km/s or furlongs per fortnight or whatever) . But any motion in the closer cluster is twice as apparent as the same motion in the one twice as far away, so the faster star has 2^3/2 times the proper motion as the slower star, not the 2^1/2 I was grasping at. (So no, I don't think they were asking about observed angular velocity; it was a wild goose chase for me, but a red herring for you.) This arriving at the same 2^3/2 value is just a coincidence setup by the problem in which the two clusters have the same observed angular diameter, and thus the one which is twice as far away has twice the physical diameter as well.

Thus I fail to find any reasonable (or only moderately unreasonable) interpretation of the question yielding the answer in the key and must assume that either it is wrong or we are both making some mistake. -- ToE 20:10, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I see how my "moving across the face of the cluster" would be confusing as their "at the outer edge" probable meant the observed circular (2D) edge of the cluster, not the spherical (3D) edge. In that case, my proper motion wild goose chase would apply only to those stars whose orbital plane was perpendicular to the line of observation. -- ToE 22:24, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Securing data physically

An alternative to encryption (one immune to quantum computing) would be a storage device that can be freely written to but is physically impossible to read without a password. Furthermore it would be good that at the time of writing it could be verified that (1) the device is set to use the (unknown to the verifier) password of the intended recipient and (2) the device will function as intended, i.e. the manufacturer has not rigged the device. Does a device of this kind exist, at least in theory? --145.94.77.43 (talk) 20:27, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't count a password as physically securing data. A physical switch you must toggle to put the device into read mode and another switch for write mode would be better. And they have to be real hardwired switches, not just ones that set some flag the software is supposed to use, because software can't be trusted. Being able to write to a device without reading from it does pose some challenges, though, like knowing if there's room for the data, verifying that it was written correctly, etc. The device would need to have the intelligence to check for such things itself. StuRat (talk) 21:19, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

"Being able to write to a device without reading from it does pose some challenges..." Well, if you can find a way to force users to write in Perl. . .--Atemperman (talk) 13:16, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

You seem to be describing something else. From their mention of encryption, it seems clear the OP wants some method to stop unwanted parties reading the data (e.g. after finding, stealing or confisicating the device) but doesn't want to use encryption out of fears quantum computing will break it. I don't see how what they're describing is going to work they're probably worrying too much about the encryption being broken rather then simply accidentally or being forced to reveal the password, but that's more of an aside. As for what your describing there seems little point. A hardwired write switch may have some use (although I don't think it's as foolproof as you believe). However there's not going to be much reason to use a switch to allow the device to be written too but not read. There may be some limited use in strange scenarios like where your copying data to the device but it also has info you don't want read. But in most cases it would make far more sense to have 2 or more devices and don't attach the device with sensitive data to something you don't trust. It's definitely not going to help in the OPs case unless your purported adversary is incredibly stupid (and if they are, they're not going to be able to break encryption even with quantum computers). Nil Einne (talk) 21:33, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, they used the word "physical", but what they were asking really had nothing to do with physical security. StuRat (talk) 00:36, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Honestly, it looks fairly similar to public key encryption: the author of the file can't actually decrypt what he's writing; only the recipient can. I don't know of a device that bakes that sort of thing in, but there's no reason in practice that you couldn't rig up a software solution to apply that sort of thing. Note, though, that "quantum computing" won't enter into this at all. All encryption is, at some level, password-based, and so replacing one password (symmetric encryption) with another (public key encryption) isn't fundamentally altering that idea. — Lomn 01:32, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

What I was after was making something that is impossible to crack (even when the pass-phrase is much shorter than the data), as opposed to overwhelmingly improbable. --145.94.77.43 (talk) 04:05, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand how you expect this to work at all. Imagine if you can only read it with the password, it doesn't make it impossible to bruteforce. Just keep trying with a different password. (That's bruteforcing!) In fact, if you really in some way can't 'read it' without a password, that makes it even easier since you know it's a failure so can quickly move on to the next candidate. (Depending on how you use encryption, you may only know if you failed to decrypt by the data not making sense.) Any sort of imposed limitation on number of tries, whether in software or hardware is of limited purpose since it can be overiden by using hardware or software which doesn't impose such a limitation. Perhaps if it physically takes a while to read, bruteforcing would be made more difficult but still not impossible. If reading is physically destructive and too many tries you kills the device it may seem this would work. However we get back to the first flaw in the concept. How do you design a device which can only be read with a password? However you store the data (magnetic, holographic whatever), ultimately there must be some way to read the data which the device contains and store it without bothering with any 'password'. Then you can just in software simulate whatever happens when the 'password' is used to read the device. Nil Einne (talk) 05:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

A good point about having a chance to guess the password anyway, but you are forgetting that the device is hardware in itself and cannot be overridden. Simulation is not a weakness either since the state of the device is unknown and by definition the device must somehow fend off any unwanted attempt to probe or tamper it. --145.94.77.43 (talk) 06:05, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

That doesn't make sense. "Hardware" vs "software" is irrelevant for this (it's just implementation detail). If you have a password, that password can be guessed. No information is more secure than the password. "Hardware" vs "software" is functionally meaningless here; cryptographically, all that's relevant is that you have password-protected data, and any means you have to legitimately enter a password constitutes a means for an attacker to enter a password. As for "the state of the device is unknown", obscurity is not a substitute for security. The world is rife with systems that were "secure" by virtue of a supposedly hidden secret (see: most industry DRM over the last decade). They're typically cracked within a year -- and those are industries with billions of dollars at stake! Now, tamper-resistant is its own thing, and it's very real, but you trade that against accessibility. You could make a box that self-destructs if someone tries to open it, or enters the wrong password, but you have to be willing to accept that you might destroy your own data if you type the password wrong. Of course, if they can bypass the self-destruct, or if you store the data in a second place for "backup", it's as if you didn't have any of that security at all. — Lomn 14:43, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Indeed a key point 145 seems to be missing is there's arguably no way you can make your device tamper-resistance perfect. Sure you may make things more difficult for your adversary, but ultimately there's always the possibility they will break whatever safeguards you put inplace and can therefore overide any restrictions you attempt to enforce. Nil Einne (talk) 15:06, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Physically impossible--no not in any known way. Difficult in practice--sure, see security token. 67.117.145.9 (talk) 22:59, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I have the impression that most people worrying about the security of encryption are just being paranoid. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ib30 (talk • contribs) 00:16, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Nonsense. There are many examples in practice of nonsecure encryption and the negative consequences thereof. Modern secure algorithms are such only because people are constantly and professionally paranoid about them. — Lomn 01:32, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. The pure mathemetical underpinnings of most modern widely-used cryptographic schemes have been pretty thoroughly scrutinized, and if implemented correctly are secure against any current brute-force computational attack. However, it's actually quite difficult to translate that mathematics into a useful software implementation without inadvertently introducing serious weaknesses. Bruce Schneier's blog is a great way to get daily bite-sized snippets of news about security and risk management in the modern era, including fairly frequent stories related to (sometimes good, but usually poor) uses of crytographic algorithms and technology. Three days ago, he covered this story, which involved a discovery by cryptography researchers that something like 1 in 250 public keys in the wild share a common factor, making them inherently insecure. (This was probably due to the use of flaky, not-quite-random random number generators in the creation of the keys.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 05:24, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

"Most people" don't have almost any information of value, that deserves any effort to be protected against "quantum computing" or that deserves any effort to be cracked. And most people cannot protect their most valuable information like credit cards and bank accounts themselves, since their respective banks are at charge. So, in this sense it's nonsense to worry about common algorithms or about common programs. Just use them correctly and you are save. On the other hand, if you are into an industry which heavily depends on security (to protect your digital TV transmission, credit cards processing information, etc) then you'll have to be up-to-date to know what others are doing to crack your data. 88.8.66.12 (talk) 14:24, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Again, nonsense. "Most people" (and why the scare quotes?) rely on secure encryption for sensitive data on a daily basis, whether they realize it or not. — Lomn 14:44, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

What? If they do not realize the use, why being paranoid? Most people do not have any need or possibility to manage the encryption they use. I doubt you understood the previous comments. Take a look at: that's Lomn. 88.8.66.12 (talk) 16:10, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Save data to flash drive. Physically remove flash drive when done. Store in vault. How's that sound? (Yeah, I know, flash memory degrades eventually. But it does survive a trip through the wash). Guettarda (talk) 21:00, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

February 20

in an unstirred bulk polymerization that proceeds to 100 percent conversion how can the effects of shrinkage and heat of polymerization be handled?

Just wondering what your take on this would be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.238.137.168 (talk) 01:23, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

With safety gloves. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:04, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

If you know how much shrinkage to expect, you can make it larger than needed, to compensate for the shrinkage. As for excess heat, fans could be used, or other cooling methods. StuRat (talk) 05:42, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Rechargeable battery

Why does keeping a laptop plugged in constantly ruin the battery life? --108.225.117.174 (talk) 03:02, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Who says it does? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:03, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

"if you keep your laptop plugged in, you force your battery to remain at 4.2V continuously and these side reactions continue to happen and slowly kill the battery" "Laptop batteries may last a little longer if you let them fully discharge occasionally". Clarityfiend (talk) 03:15, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

See Memory effect. If you never discharge a battery all the way, it sort-of "forgets" what "all discharged" means, and you lose battery life. --Jayron32 03:44, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The memory effect is a feature of NiCd batteries. Most laptops have a lithium-ion battery which has battery-management circuitry to prevent both overcharge and over-discharge. Both are harmful to battery life, with deep discharge making the battery unusable. The general advice seems to be to avoid leaving the power supply permanently connected, but many users leave laptops permanently plugged in with little noticeable effect on battery life. Ideally, the battery management circuitry should have a software link so that it can be adjusted to a "permanently plugged-in" setting where it stops charging just below the maximum power to extend battery life, and with a maximum charge setting for those who need many hours of use from battery alone. None of the laptops that I've used have this facility. I wonder why they don't. Dbfirs 13:46, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I've read that lithium-ion batteries deteriorate faster when full, and also deteriorate faster the warmer they are. Operating a device while plugged in is the worst possible case: the battery is at full charge, and the device is warm.--Srleffler (talk) 18:30, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that sounds accurate, but very few of us bother to disconnect our laptop batteries and store them in the fridge when the laptop is connected to the mains. I wonder if any research has been done to compare the shortening of life from "warm and fully charged" with the shortening of life from regularly charging and discharging. I suspect that the "warm and full" deterioration is measurable, but not a major factor in battery life, so most of us don't bother to allow the battery to discharge slightly, then move it to the fridge when we don't need it for a while. Dbfirs 09:48, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Infectious non-contagious diseases

From Marburg virus disease:

Marburgviruses are highly infectious, but not very contagious.

After looking through Infectious disease and Contagious disease, I can't figure out what this means — especially since the infectious disease article says "Infectious diseases that are especially infective are sometimes called contagious." How can a highly infectious disease not be very contagious? Or how can a less-contagious disease be characterised as highly infectious? Does it keep reinfecting hosts that already have it? Nyttend (talk) 04:44, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Contagious is a measure of how easily it spreads in a human population. Ebola is another virus which is infectious but not very contagious, owing to the fact that victims quickly become incapacitated and die after infection before really having a chance to infect other people. On the other hand, HIV is given as an example highly contagious disease since victims can walk around for years without even knowing they're infected passing it on to people far away from where they initially caught the infection. Vespine (talk) 05:19, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

For completeness, diseases like Lyme disease are infectious but not contagious at all, since you can't catch them from other people. Vespine (talk) 05:20, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

So highly infectious basically means "if you get even a few pathogens, they have a high chance of infecting a substantial portion of the body and causing observable effects"? Nyttend (talk) 05:25, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, I'm not a doctor but that's the way I understand it. I think it's more of a "threshold", as opposed to infecting "portions" of the body, but yeah... Also the Contagious disease article does say The boundary between contagious and non-contagious infectious diseases is not perfectly drawn. It contradicts me and says HIV is a non-contagious disease since it is not easily transmitted by physical contact, but then goes straight on to say In the present day, most sexually transmitted diseases are considered contagious. So I think the term has a slightly "loose" meaning. Vespine (talk) 05:28, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure "contagious" means "can be transmitted between individuals in a population". Malaria is infectious but not contagious -- you get malaria from mosquitos, not from other humans.--Atemperman (talk) 13:13, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

which insect is this ?

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/cddd07abfa9b042f748ea3294428b71476d5fba1075598ef99d7079528e1c3a26g.jpg which insect is this ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.178.249.145 (talk) 15:24, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

This will be tough without more info. Things that will help, if you know them (e.g. if you took the photo): Where was the photo taken? In what season? What kind of tree is that? How large is the specimen? Nevertheless, I'll start with some guesses:

• Could be a mealybug. Looks a lot like one. But we generally expect to see them aggregated on green plant tissue, not all alone on bark.
• Could also be some type of woodlice, which are actually crustaceans. They are more likely to be found alone on bark. The adults aren't generally white, but young ones are usually pale. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:50, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Woodlouse would get my vote. Guettarda (talk) 20:55, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
    • The woodlouse for me, too. I see those all the time in Minnesota, only I call them "pillbugs." Stripey the crab (talk) 03:46, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Spectrum of stars

you mean this angle?

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Pendragon5 (talk • contribs) 23:16, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Can anyone helps me on number 16? Some drawing goes with the explanation will be highly appreciated! The answer for number 16 should be from 50-70 degrees (all they want is a rough calculation) so what matters is how to do it. Thanks!Pendragon5 (talk) 19:50, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The redshift will give you the radial velocity (the component of velocity directly away from or towards you). You calculated the total velocity in the previous question. A bit of trigonometry will then give you the angle. --Tango (talk) 20:57, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Can you this problem as an example for me please? I don't even know what angle are they looking for? If possible can you draw a picture to help me visualize and post it on here? It would help me a lot to solve a problem if i can visualize it.Pendragon5 (talk) 22:10, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Draw a line between the observer and the star, then draw an arrow from the star pointing in the direction the star is moving. They want the angle between that line and that arrow. --Tango (talk) 23:09, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

No, not that angle. The star isn't going to move a significant distance in your lifetime, so considering it at two points isn't helpful. You're just interested in the instantaneous velocity. --Tango (talk) 23:35, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand this at all. I can't even visualize what angle am i working on. I don't get what they mean by measured wavelength and laboratory wavelength. I have no knowledge of connecting the information they give to find the angle. Can you just do it as an example problem for me? So i can do the similar problem if i was given one. I'm totally blacked out in this problem sorry.Pendragon5 (talk) 23:55, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I linked to an article, have you read it? --Tango (talk) 00:26, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Yea i have been working on it and trying to understand it for the last few hours. Alright let just say that i'm being stupid on this ok.Pendragon5 (talk) 00:42, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

You know the projection of the radial velocity onto the direct line between you and the star. (You measured the red-shift, right? That's the velocity relative to you. And you calculated the orbital velocity, which is the total velocity of the star, right?) You're looking for the angle between the line that connects you to the star, and the line that the star is moving along. In physics parlance, the redshift tells you the projection of the total velocity on to your radial line. I'd use a dot product formula any time I have to calculate a projected vector; you can rearrange this formula. Have you studied much trigonometry yet? We can walk you through the details in a very step-by-step fashion, but even if we do, it might not be very helpful until you've got a really solid background in algebraic trigonometry. Nimur (talk) 01:52, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

i don't know how much is needed to be considered as having solid background in algebraic trigonometry. The highest math class i have done is precalculus, that's all. I remembered learn about dot product before but well we didn't apply it into complicated ideas, we basically do easy stuffs and obviously problems. And again i still can't picture what angle are we trying to find? Can someone just draw it on a piece of paper and upload it here please, that would be extremely helpful to me.

And no i still don't even know how to calculate the redshift. When i look at the formula, i don't know which one is which. Where should the 656.5386 nm measured value be in the formula? Where should the 656.3 nm laboratory value be in the formula? I still don't understand this statement "the line that connects you to the star, and the line that the star is moving along". The line that the star is moving along should be changing continuously since the star is always moving or what do you mean by moving along? What exactly angle is this? Pendragon5 (talk) 02:19, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Calculation of redshift, z

Based on wavelength	Based on frequency
$z = \frac{\lambda_{\mathrm{obsv}} - \lambda_{\mathrm{emit}}}{\lambda_{\mathrm{emit}}}$	$z = \frac{f_{\mathrm{emit}} - f_{\mathrm{obsv}}}{f_{\mathrm{obsv}}}$
$1+z = \frac{\lambda_{\mathrm{obsv}}}{\lambda_{\mathrm{emit}}}$	$1+z = \frac{f_{\mathrm{emit}}}{f_{\mathrm{obsv}}}$

And i'm strongly doubt that they expect students to know advance math. All they required is basic math like algebra. Is there a faster way that can give a really rough answer? That's why the answer in the answer key is any answer from 50 degree to 70 degree is correct. So the rough calculation should be fine.Pendragon5 (talk) 02:26, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

You can either use math or memorization. The major tools that higher maths like calculus gives you is the ability to manipulate equations in complex ways to get new equations that tell you new things about the world. You can either start from one equation and do calculus to get all the equations you need, or you can memorize a whole bunch of equations. For example, you can essentially derive all of your Newtonian mechanics equations from a few basic starting points and a 1-semester calculus class. Or you can memorize like 50 equations and their applications. That's why people learn higher order math: it simplifies your life to know one equation and ways to manipulated into 50 new equations than to have to memorize all 50 without any idea how they relate to each other. --Jayron32 04:54, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

As with several of the other astronomy questions Pendragon5 has been asking about, this one implies a couple of unstated assumptions. First is that the binary system has no significant overall radial motion with respect to us, so that the entire redshift is a function only of the radial (with respect to our line of sight) component of the star's orbital velocity. If we want to come up with the actual orbital inclination and not just an upper limit on the inclination, then we must assume that the Hα wavelength given represents the maximum redshift observed during the star's 10 day orbit. Calculating the redshift yields a radial velocity of almost exactly half of the orbital velocity, so we know that at least the answer key is correct this time (though I don't know why they bracket the answer with a range of 50°-70°. If the second assumption doesn't hold, and this is just a single random spectral measurement of Star C, then all we can say is that 60° is the maximum inclination. If the first assumption doesn't hold, then all bets are off and nothing can be calculated. While I'm griping at the statement of the problem, I'll point out how strange it is to specify the observed Hα wavelength to 7 significant figures, but to round off the reference value to 4 significant figures. Hmph. -- ToE 13:40, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Flying a tethered quadrocopter

Would it be possible to fly this RC quadrocopter indefinitely (or until mechanical failure) while having it connected to AC power via the use of a long extension cable? That is, can I remove the battery from the quadrocopter, make a long extension of the thinner wire before the power supply and fly the drone without a battery while tethered to its power supply? It says the payload is 700g, what are the implications as far as drawing out more wire? I mean, does this put more load on it and if so what is the relationship or rate?

As a side note, I do realize that it should include a small backup battery to stop it from crashing in case of disconnect and that I am not clear on how the drone will be autonomously hovering in the same spot indefinitely, but that doesn't matter yet. Also, I have seen a few videos of the Parrot AR.Drone being flown while tethered to its standard short-cabled AC adapter. I can see that the stability is affected even while flying indoors and that this is a potential problem. Even so, I would like to know the feasibility of hovering much further away whilst tethered, regardless of this potentially causing significant load on the copter.

In summary, I'd like to know:

1. Can the quadrocopter be flown without a battery while directly connected to the power supply?
2. Is it possible to extend the less weighty wire before the power brick?
3. What is the rate that (I assume) load increases as distance from the power supply increases?
4. I also found this pay load/power consumption chart. Lhcii (talk) 20:19, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

1) Your RC chopper is unlikely to work directly off A/C, without the battery, unless modified.

A few other thoughts:

A) 700 grams isn't much length for an electrical cord, but would be more if you eliminated the insulation (you would need minimal insulation to keep the positive from shorting to the negative, unless they were somehow kept physically apart). However, uninsulated wire would be unsafe, and would also be less effective as a tether, having only the strength of the copper to keep the chopper in place. So, overall, leaving the full insulation in place would make sense, which would only allow for a very short tether.

B) You might find that the time between mechanical failures is less than you might think, since it's designed for only short flights. It might overheat or loose lubrication rapidly.

C) I also share your concern over the stability of tethered flight, but attaching the tether directly to the CG point is the least likely to disrupt that stability.

D) Introducing a spring into the system (preferably at the bottom of the tether) would help prevent it from breaking it's tether on updrafts.

E) Constructing a tower to support most of the weight of the wire would allow the chopper to fly higher. StuRat (talk) 20:49, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, StuRat, I appreciate the suggestions. I think that building a tower will be a perfect solution to the problem for many situations, attaching it with a spring is a great idea as well! I was thinking of using a gimbal, but that is much simpler and thus lighter. I am disappointed that 700g is so little wire, but I'm sure I could also increase my range by upgrading the chopper or adding additional choppers to ferry the power cables and possibly a camera as well(also increasing weight, I know).Lhcii (talk) 23:13, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Something else to consider is ground effects. That is, your chopper will get more lift when closer to the ground. Thus, you could have a fairly stable spot where, if it drops lower the ground effects will lift it back up, or, of it rises up the lack of ground effects will bring it back down. To use this form of stability, it would need to be quite close to the ground though, no more than a few feet up. And, of course, the up/down stability is only one of many types to worry about (with pitching, rolling, moving forward/back or right/left, and twisting the cord being a few others). To address all of those, you might want 4 cables, one attached below each rotor, at maybe a 45 degree angle. Two of those cables could be the positive and negative wires. You'd want the cable weights to match, and the + and - wires to be on opposite sides, in case they don't match. This would mean 4 towers, and maybe a stepladder in the center to launch and retrieve the chopper (or maybe scaffolding with the cables tied off at each corner).

BTW, why do you want to do this ? (Your answer might affect our suggestions.) StuRat (talk) 23:20, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm a bit confused by your proposal. Are you saying you're planning to make the extension on the AC/line voltage side? If so this seems to carry obvious safety implications you need to consider. As StuRat has said, you want properly insulated wire. Also have you considered this means you will have to be carrying the AC adapter which will add more weight, probably significantly. Even with a switching mode PSU, it's likely to be heavy given the amount of power the device appears to need (the fact that a 2S2000mAh battery only lasts about 12 minutes tells you it's a lot) and will be another safety concern (since you're potentially going to drop it if things go wrong). All in all, while lithium polymer batteries when used in RC devices aren't exactly the safest thing, the plan to carry around an line voltage extension cord and an adapter on a copter seems a worse idea.

If you're thinking of making the extension on the DC side, are you aware what kind of current you're going to need to support? [13] suggests it needs a minimum of 50W (and I'm guessing that's the average meaning it will likely need more for peaks) up to 170W with a full load. That does of course demonstrate another problem with your proposal, the more weight the more power you need. But more importantly, if you look at the graph it seems like you'll need to supply at least 18A (at about 11V). But it has peaks of up to 30A, so really you'll should support that. (Perhaps you don't need to go quite that high, but you probably want to support more then 18A.) [14] [15] gives you an idea of what sort of wire gauge you'll be needing depending on the length of the wire, it seems to me you'll want at least 8 AWG probably 6 or even 4. Raising the voltage, should help, the pages suggest it supports 2S and 3S batteries, suggest it does support somewhat of a voltage range. If it support 4S or even higher without being very inefficient this would be good.

P.S. I somewhat doubt the AC adapter supplied with the device has the capacity to power it live. Also while the RD is great, you may want to consider a specialised forum. While I don't know that much about RC, I have come across some forums on searches for other things and the people there usually seem to be somewhat informed. For example [16] appears to have over 708 pages apparently on the copter you linked above and I noticed some discussion of 4S. [17] is another one I've come across before and also [18].

Nil Einne (talk) 20:07, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Some other thoughts:

a) If you use the 4 tower system I proposed above, I suggest a net between them to catch the chopper if it falls.

b) Make sure the wire lengths are sufficient to reach the net without them being pulled taught.

These steps may make it possible to reuse the setup. However, the wires may still get chopped by the blades, so have backup wires. The net may also be damaged, so have extra netting. StuRat (talk) 21:36, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you StuRat and Nil Einne for your input. I have a lot to think about from your ideas. Nil Einne, the forums that you linked to me are full of information, I am sure I will find some nice tips on the Gaui and its different batteries. StuRat, I do like the four tower system. Perhaps it is more viable for testing purposes than it would be in actual application, but helpful regardless. The reason I asked the question in the first place is because I thought it would be a good way to take time-lapse or at least long duration video from a bird's eye view. I thought this would be effective particularly for youth sports games as it would be much more portable than a camera on a pole or ladder and would give a better perspective on the game to the viewers (more like a broadcast TV association football match). It seems like it won't be possible to spool out enough wire to let the chopper gain significant height, especially if it is going to be carrying a camera as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lhcii (talk • contribs) 17:44, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

In that case I think a camera on the end of a telescoping pole would be the way to go, perhaps with a spike for the ground and 3 guy-wires to secure it. Here's a 25 foot tall telescoping flagpole for around the same price as your chopper: [19]. The helicopter would introduce unwanted vibrations which would blur the images, and the flagpole should be able to support a better camera. StuRat (talk) 18:54, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Ah, you are very right, that would be much more suitable and less costly to maintain to boot. I guess my idea doesn't work out for my original intention, then. In any case, I thank you all for your input and assure you that it wasn't a waste. I'm sure that I'll be able to apply some of your ideas for testing purpose or otherwise, especially if I find a use for a tethered camera drone.Lhcii (talk) 01:07, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, I'll mark this question resolved. Incidentally, when I was trying to figure out why you wanted a tethered chopper, my best guess was to demonstrate the chopper itself, say at a science fair or hobby store that sells them. StuRat (talk) 02:14, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Resolved

Dissolution of Biphenyl

Hello. I would like to synthesize triphenylmethanol via a Grignard reaction. A common side-product is biphenyl, which prefers to dissolve in hexanes over ether. How can adding hexanes purify a mix of triphenylmethanol, biphenyl, and ether? The boiling point of biphenyl is higher than of triphenylmethanol. Rotary evaporation will not separate biphenyl from my desired product, eh? Thanks in advance. --Mayfare (talk) 22:19, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Have you tried chromatography methods to seperate your products? If thin layer chromatography indicates a reasonable difference in Rf values (i.e. if the spots seperate enough), then you stand a good chance of Column chromatography working to seperate the products from each other. Collect all of your factions, identify which fractions contain your desired product using a combination of the TLC results (the compounds come off of the column in the same order they moved up the TLC plate) and analytical techniques (NMR and/or Mass spectrometry should work) and then collect those fractions and isolate your desired products, perhaps by distillation or crystalization or something like that. --Jayron32 23:02, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

This isn't something I know well, but a simple Google search turns up many hits - apparently it's a common classroom exercise.^[20] For example [21],[22],[23], and [24]. To quote this last (with a little imperfection of grammar), "The petroleum ether will dissolve the non-polar biphenyl, while the product triphenylmethanol does not." (The point is, the product is an alcohol) Using chromatography... someone's thinking like a biochemist. ;) Wnt (talk) 04:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I did, in my mispent youth, spend about 18 months working in an organic synthesis lab. It was the most mispent part of my youth, in hindsight. But hey, it prepared me to answer this question. --Jayron32 04:48, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Aluminum pot

I have an aluminum pot which, when filled with water and allowed to sit, gets white nodules forming on the bottom of the interior. Are these some type of salt ? I use this pot to replace water in my "humidifier" (a larger pot I leave on the stove all day). I don't think I want to eat anything out of this pot. Interestingly, I have another aluminum pot which doesn't seem to do this. What might be different in their constructions ? StuRat (talk) 22:20, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Pure aluminium quickly develops an impervious, transparent oxide layer which prevents further oxidization. It seems likely that your pot was formed form aluminium which contained impurities. These (probably iron) prevent this protective film of oxides from forming. Never-the-less the aluminium -which is very reactive- still insists on oxidizing but in a different form. --Aspro (talk) 23:37, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

If one looks on page 33 one will see Fig 7 showing such an iron inclusion.[25]--Aspro (talk) 00:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like calcification deposits. I expect the one pot has tiny roughnesses that serve as nucleation centers to allow the dissolved solids in the water (which is probably pretty hard) to come out of solution. Looie496 (talk) 00:11, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I second this explanation (calcification). Aluminum, as noted above, is highly reactive. This means that it forms its protective oxide layer instantly, pretty much regardless of inclusions or impurities. This makes aluminum, in practice, almost inert. David Spector (user/talk) 02:27, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

We have city water, which isn't particularly hard. Also, why does it form nodules, instead of a continuous film ? StuRat (talk) 03:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Q:why does it form nodules. Ans: OK, lets construct a rough pons asinorum. As I said, “Pure aluminium quickly develops an impervious, transparent oxide layer which prevents further oxidization”. Yet in the real would things are different AND we are not just talking about gaseous oxygen in this 'case study' regarding your pot. Some aluminium pots are made from high grade aluminium sheet (often thin and flexible) . These tend to get a good protective coat of oxides (two) which are self repairing every time they get scratched. Some pots are cast. These might use lower grade and recycled aluminium alloys with impurities. The latter are more prone to getting what you appear to describe but both can suffer from it. Now, what I need to know from you is -when the nodules have been removed are there little pits in the surface under them? If so you have quite ordinary and common pit- nodules of aluminium hydroxide. See here:[26]. Now. If what you have is pit-nodules, then the reason why they form as they do: As the last reference implies -there is natural stuff in your tap water that makes the original passive oxide layer permeable. Just being permeable though is not going to do much unless there is something to force the cations of aluminium out. So, back to my first reference of Fig 7 pg.33 An iron impurity can cause that area to become cathodic. In turn, it will make any near by weakness in the oxide skin anodic. So out flow the Al cations. Now. They are not flowing out (by way of perhaps mainly Cl electrolyte in your case) not into gaseous oxygen but water. As I said in my first post on this “aluminium -which is very reactive- still insists on oxidizing but in a different form” and so it uses the first thing it comes across -in this case water. Aluminium hydroxide has a volume many times the size of the pit it leaves behind and so it grows out and above the surface. This can happen in just a few days. Other cations in the taps water may be attracted to the cathodic spots (depending on their relative nobility to the Al) and after a few days equalise the charge so weakening the galvanic force and slowing the corrosive effect but there are too many variable here for me to guess at. --Aspro (talk) 19:00, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

A beautiful answer. Forget "calcification". David Spector (user/talk) 23:33, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I like to charge £70 per hour for consultations, so if anyone has any other questions please let me know how many pounds worth of my time they would like and where to send them my pro-former invoice (actually I'm a little embarrassed, as that wasn't a very good explanation since I wanted it to be in plain and simple English. Yet, my mind is getting a little fuddled. My quack say's it old age but I think its too much beer) (no, second thoughts -how can one drink too much beer?).--Aspro (talk) 23:57, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Yup. Even to a hopeless failure at chemistry/physics like me, Aspro's answer makes sense. There has been a rather pointless debate about 'Aluminium' vs 'Aluminum' as the proper name for this substance, whereas it should most probably have been named 'LookingForAnExcuseToReactWithOxygenAtTheFirstOpportunityium'. Alumin(i)um as a metal isn't something you'd expect to find in nature for a very good reason - there is far too much oxygen about, and it will steal it from any source available - often with spectacular results. An aluminium pot is nothing more than a localised hiccup in entropy, and liable to find a way to restore disorder at every opportunity. From the perspective of the universe, it isn't the behaviour caused by 'inclusions of iron' that have to be explained, but instead the much less plausible 'inclusions of metallic aluminium'. (and in answer to Aspro's final question, I'd say not at the time, no, but come the morning after, probably ;-) ). AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:47, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

UPDATE: I scraped a few of the nodules off, and no pits are visible. However, they might be microscopic. I also got brave enough to taste the nodules, and they seemed slightly salty (but definitely not all salt). StuRat (talk) 06:15, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Interesting observation (and like a true scientist did you grab a bottle distilled vinegar out the kitchen to see if it both dissolved the nodule and my argument?) . As I said towards the end “there are too many variable here for me to guess at” yet I too have wondered about this 'saltiness', (In cleaning out a badly corroded heat exchangers, some of it inevitably ends up on one's lips) . The following is just idle speculation so don't take it as gospel: It reminds me a little of Salty liquorice. So, Perhaps a Al cation gets the chance to gab a couple of passing Chlorates (present in the tap water). Strip off their oxygen, leaving the Cl's to in turn grab a passing nitrogen molecule. This 'might' result in creating Ammonium chloride which will taste something like salt but not table salt. Again, this is just speculation that I can not give any real reasoning to as why this reaction should happen and it might very well be the result of another chemical compound that I can not guess at (ie. I' am clutching at straws). Never-the-less, it is obviously not what pure aluminium hydroxide tastes like. It would really need a proper experiment to discover and explain the sensation of saltiness of this crud. So in other words, I don't think your having Gustational hallucinations.

--Aspro (talk) 18:26, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I tried some balsamic vinegar, and it didn't seem to have any effect. I'll buy some distilled vinegar when I go to the store. StuRat (talk) 18:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Vinegar is vinegar - apart from the price. The balsamic may have made the nodules taste better but if there was no reaction -that’s it. I just said distilled because that's what I mostly use for cleaning windows, de-calcifying kettles and other domestic chores that I can't get either of the wives to do. Buy it by the gallon and its really cheap - and we get eight pints to the gallon where I live!.. --Aspro (talk) 19:17, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Wives ? I take it you're a Mormon, then ? :-) StuRat (talk) 19:21, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

No ! Just very gullible, and unable to change the locks faster than they can get new keys cut - so just given up and accepted it... --Aspro (talk) 19:53, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I recall not being able to dissolve the exudate with vinegar, too. Can't be a hydroxide, probably not calcium carbonate. My intuition says an aluminum salt. Aluminum chloride? Also, many salts taste salty without being a chloride. Would be a nice 'unknown substance' problem for a school chemistry lab class. David Spector (user/talk) 01:08, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Pregnant cats

Hi. Our tabby female cat recently gave birth to three kittens who have since been purchased and rehomed. A short time after our other cat became pregnant and this evening gave birth to five kittens. The other cat seems to be taking a motherly interest in this new batch of kittens. The new mother doesn't seem to mind but we're concerned that this will have an adverse effect on the connection between the mother and her litter? If so how do we prevent the other cat from exhibiting this maternal behaviour? --Hadseys (talk) 22:31, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I imagine some type of hormone therapy could remove the "maternal" hormones from the first momcat, but, of course, no vet would do that. Keeping them separated would work, but really, I don't see the danger. It's far better to have two mothers than have one trying to kill them, after all. The only physical risk I see is if the first momcat has stopped producing milk, but prevents the kittens from getting milk from their mother. If this is the case, then yes, keep them locked in different rooms until the kittens are weaned. If you do have to separate them, I suggest some surrogate kitten for the kittenless one. Rolled up socks seem to work. StuRat (talk) 23:44, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Don't worry about the other female kitten taking a maternal interest, from my experience with cats and kittens it's perfectly normal. In feral groups, female cats will raise the kittens between them. The time to worry is if an entire male cat takes interest in kittens as he will regard them as a threat and potential source of food. Oh and I'd get all your cats neutered as soon as they are old enough. The last thing the world needs is more cats (and I'm a cat lover). --TammyMoet (talk) 11:10, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I think you mean "intact" male. Not entire. Dismas|^(talk) 11:13, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I've seen both used. --TammyMoet (talk) 22:09, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I've seen male cats take a keen interest in others' kittens. It's often perfectly harmless. Kittens like to play, and will naturally try to interest other cats in playing with them. Some cats (including adult males) are perfectly happy to oblige. Unless you sense aggression from the adult male, I wouldn't worry. And as to your situation, I highly doubt it will have any "adverse effect on the connection between the mother and her litter" in a detrimental way. Be thrilled that they're all on good terms. 58.111.178.170 (talk) 15:58, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

• Dont worry we will spay her, the other one's already been done. They just both escaped out of the house one time and got knocked up =/.The kittens though, if anyone's interested, are beautiful. Four with white fur with random black tortoiseshell markings scattered about it and a pure black one

Have you got pictures? Whoop whoop pull up ^{Bitching Betty | Averted crashes} 15:24, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Heliocentrism

is this an observable fact? 203.112.82.128 (talk) 23:15, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes. You can observe the sun, moon and planets moving in the sky and they move in exactly the way the heliocentric model of the solar system predicts. --Tango (talk) 23:38, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

You can distinguish the modern heliocentric model from the Ptolemaic model by the phases of Venus, from the Tychonic model by the stellar parallax, and from Newtonian orbits by careful observation of the perihelion of Mercury, among many other careful observations that align with the modern understanding (I have picked out only a few historically significant ones). Observations do not prove theories, but they do disprove them, leaving only those theories which fit the data and remain falsifiable. --Mr.98 (talk) 23:47, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

And, of course, we've sent ships to all the planets and the Sun. I don't think they would hit their targets if our heliocentric model of the solar system was wrong. StuRat (talk) 23:49, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the above conclusions, but I think the above answers are not quite accurate. The pre-Copernican Ptolemaic system was amply verified by observations and made pretty much the same predictions. The main problem with the ptolemic system was that it assumed circular orbits, which the copernican model also assumed to begin with. From the geocentric model article: The geocentric system was still held for many years afterwards, as at the time the Copernican system did not offer better predictions than the geocentric system, and it posed problems for both natural philosophy and scripture. The Copernican system was no more accurate than Ptolemy's system, because it still used circular orbits. This was not altered until Johannes Kepler postulated that they were elliptical (Kepler's first law of planetary motion). If Kepler's laws were applied to the ptolemic system, there is no reason it couldn't have been used to send space craft to the sun and planets. Fundamentally it's a question of relativity and perspective. Also, strictly speaking, Heliocentrism is the theory that the sun is at the center of the UNIVERSE, which we obviously no longer believe to be the case, but locally to our solar system, it holds true. (EDIT: I posted this before I saw Mr.98's reply which I don't have any issues with)Vespine (talk) 00:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Would going with elliptical orbits improve the geocentric model beyond what epicycles did ? For example, could they explain the apparent retrograde motion of Mars ? Or do you mean a geocentric model with both elliptical orbits and epicycles ? Also, I don't think they would be accurate enough for space shots, unless you are assuming local corrections to navigation. StuRat (talk) 00:09, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I'll admit I have no idea:) I could be wrong, but you COULD make an accurate working model from geocentrism, even if you had to add "planetary constants" for each orbit or whatever, it might make it exceedingly complex, but the point is that it doesn't necessarily make it false and conversely doesn't necessarily make heliocentrism a fact. I'm probably reading WAY too much into probably just a casual question. If the OP is interested I think this is a question about Philosophy of science, Scientific realism and even Model dependent realism is an interesting article. Vespine (talk) 00:15, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

OP here, i think we could still send ships to the sun if we have a good geocentric model, what im interested in is do we establish heliocentrism as fact analogous to the fact that birds can fly or a basketball is sphere. 203.112.82.128 (talk) 00:45, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

In which case, as I suspected, this is a philosophical question the answer of which depends on which stand point you accept. The articles I linked above are a good starting point. I'm only a novice philosopher but for example if you subscribe to Scientific realism I think you would argue that heliocentrism can be a fact, if however you subscribe to Model dependent realism then, if I understand correctly, you don't really believe in facts, just the usefulness of the models we adopt. Vespine (talk) 01:18, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Maybe what im really interested in is if we have a probe that can actually see the planets move around the sun or something like that.203.112.82.128 (talk) 01:33, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

We can see the planets move around the Sun from Earth! For example, almost every year I watch Mars undergo apparent retrograde motion. This is something I can see as plainly as snow in winter. This particular motion makes more sense if you realize that Mars is exterior to Earth and orbits the Sun, consistent with an orbit dominated by Newtonian gravity. I watch Jupiter and Venus orbit the Sun, and I watch Moon orbit the Earth. You don't have to look very hard to see these things: they're big, bright, and move slowly. Nimur (talk) 01:43, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

So that means nothing can disprove heliocentrism? 203.112.82.129 (talk) 01:58, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

It's not that nothing can disprove it, but that it's consistent with all observations, which the previous models were not. And with all the observational data we now have, it would take a truly elaborate and complicated geocentric model to also match those observations. The modern heliocentric model also benefits from the fact that it can be constructed directly from universal laws of physics, which have themselves been extensively demonstrated to agree with observations unrelated to planetary motion. You reach a point where asking if something is a fact just becomes meaningless. See brain in a vat, for example. It's trivial to construct a theory centered on that concept that is consistent with all human observations. If you're asking it's safe to consider heliocentrism to be a fact, the answer is yes. If you're asking what it means to be a fact, you have wandered into the realm of philosophy. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:20, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Philosophically, we could still have a geocentric system - just take all of our standard equations, convert to a coordinate system centered on the Earth's surface (or to be precise, some specific part of it), and in that coordinate system they still revolve around the Earth. Either way you just work the numbers; what they mean is merely "an interpretation", like the many-worlds interpretation or the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. That does seem kind of absurd though, doesn't it? Wnt (talk) 02:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Of course, to accept a geocentric system, we would need some mechanism by which the far more massive Sun would orbit the Earth. Does the Earth have hidden mass, like a black hole inside a hollow sphere ? If so, why isn't the force of gravity more for us ? Does the Sun have much less mass than we think ? If so, how can it support nuclear fission ? We would have to toss out much of physics to come up with a universe where geocentrism is still possible. StuRat (talk) 03:20, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

There are plenty of observations that could have disproven it, but in fact, they disproved other alternatives. --Mr.98 (talk) 13:15, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Also note that heliocentrism isn't 100% right. The Sun does wobble a bit as it is also affected by the gravitational attraction of the planets. In a two-body system it's more correct to say that both objects orbit about the barycenter of the system. With three or more bodies, it gets even more complex. StuRat (talk) 03:23, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Is Heliocentrism an observable fact? No! The center of the universe is not a well defined place. To Aristotle the center of the world was the point towards heavy objects are attracted, which is the center of the Earth. To Aristarchos of Samos and Copernicus the center was the Sun. To Kepler the Sun is not in the center of the elliptical planetary orbit, but rather at a focal point. To Newton any point may serve as the center, and there is not even an absolute zero velocity - any constant velocity displaced coordinate system will do - but there is an absolute zero point for acceleration, which is the acceleration of a particle that is subject to no force. To Einstein even the absolute zero acceleration is undefined, as nonzero acceleration may be identified with a gravitation. The Cosmic microwave background radiation#CMBR dipole anisotropy seems to indicate a zero point of velocity, but no geometrical center of the universe can be identified. Bo Jacoby (talk) 12:51, 21 February 2012 (UTC).

It all depends what one really means by "heliocentrism." --Mr.98 (talk) 13:15, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

One thing here: the OP is referring to "facts" like "birds can fly" or "a basketball is a sphere" as the gold standard of truth. But this is misleading. There's a preference for visual epistemology here which is very problematic: "seeing" something is not necessarily better or more iron-clad evidence than many other forms of observation. Secondarily, as with those examples, life gets complicated. Basketballs are not perfect spheres; not all birds can fly; and the definition of "bird" and "flight" can vary quite a bit once one starts hashing out very precise definitions (is gliding flying? if we put an ostrich on an airplane, can it fly?). Establishing even basic "facts" from apparently raw and unadulterated sense data is more tricky than it seems — aside from the fact that your sense data may be flawed or unreliable (you could be crazy, or dreaming, or inhibited in some way), you also have to make the initial selection of what sense data to retrieve in the first place, which shapes your entire outlook (relying solely on a visual spectrum of light will cause you to miss quite a lot of observable phenomena). If you want to start parsing out interesting and complicated epistemological questions about how we know anything and what is a fact, there is a rich history of these issues in the philosophy of science that one might explore. --Mr.98 (talk) 13:15, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

... and remember that, in the words of the Galaxy Song, "The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see, Are moving at a million miles a day" around the centre of our galaxy. Actually, according to orders of magnitude (speed), it is more like 10 million miles a day. But the point is that is several times greater than the Earth's orbital speed relative to the Sun. Gandalf61 (talk) 15:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

And the Milky Way is moving away from wherever the Big Bang started, right? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually Big Bang did not happen at any single point, it happened everywhere. Space is expanding which results in growing distance among galaxies. - manya (talk) 03:55, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It is histories and philosophies of science all the way down. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

February 21

blocking unsolicited junk email

I'm tired of receiving unsolicited junk email from online dating services. Is there any way to block them?24.90.204.234 (talk) 04:56, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The Computer Ref Desk would be a better choice for this post. If they always use the same email address, it's simple to blacklist that address in most email systems. If not, then it gets trickier, and some type of spam filter must be used instead (which might also block other emails). StuRat (talk) 06:46, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

SIngle-Atom transistors—The end of "Moore's Law?"

Greetings!

For a few years, now, I've noticed that transistors in electronic devices keep getting smaller, and, inversely, said devices keep becoming cheaper, robuster, and more powerful. I've also noticed the current brouhaha over Intel's miniaturizing (desperately, it seems) its end-user transistors to 22 nanometers this year, 14 nanometers by 2014, and perhaps 8 nanometers by 2016.

Just two days ago, however, this Purdue University Report came out stating that some researchers over there have produced a functioning transistor consisting of a single phosphorus atom. I'm curious, what (if anything) may this mean for "Moore's Law," and the near future of end-user electronics?

At 100 picometers in diameter, a phoshorus atom is about 1/220 of what one now considers cutting-edge. May Intel—or one of its competitors—now drop its current roadmap, and instead pursue further research on this? Also, what does this mean for the possible advent of quantum computing?

And lastly, is this (as one of the sources in the article proclaims) really the lower limit? There are eight elements that are both smaller than phosphorus and solid at room temperature. Carbon, for instance, is less than half as massive as phosporus—12 grams per mole and 31 grams per mole, respectively. Why not, one day, a carbon-atom transistor, or the like? Pine (talk) 06:59, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

This was reported in Australian media, in somewhat better prose - see for example http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-02-20/team-designs-world27s-smallest-transistor/3839524. This articles state that if ready for commerical exploitation by 2020, then Moore's Law will be matched. Researchers have been working on this for sometime, and don't hold your breath expecting to see something in the shops. High-tech & a real achievement though it may be, with respect to large scale commercial applications, it is not even equivalent to Bell Labs researchers figuring out the physics for point contact transistors during World War 2, from which (just stretching a little bit) you can trace Intel's latest products back to. Just because the active (ie switching) element is based on a single atom does not mean that a usuable transistor is that small, any more than the size of current transistors is just the size of the gate or PN-junction. You have to surround it with essentiallly clear field space many times larger. And don't forget it is so small that quantum effects are significant (read: a single transistor is unreliable), and it only works at temperatures requiring liquid helium as a coolant. In this context, your second question about a carbon-atom transistor is not actaully a useful question. In any case, phosporus is a donor atom for silicon or germanium. Carbon, analogous to Si or Ge, would be the substrate. Keit124.182.138.90 (talk) 07:57, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

"drop its current roadmap, and instead pursue further research on this" is presenting a false dichotomy. It's not an either/or kind of thing. Intel has many researchers. At any given time, Intel is simultaneously looking at multiple ways of making advancements in the near term, the medium term and the long term. Intel isn't shortsighted enough to only focus on near-term advancements, nor foolhardy enough to risk everything by focusing entirely on one particular research result which may evolve into something commercially valuable some year down the road, but might not pan out, such as is very often the case with this type of thing. Red Act (talk) 18:54, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Accuracy of the speed of light in relation to FTL Neutrinos

So, we've all heard the headlines of the faster-than-light neutrinos. Everyone's crazy about checking the timing and distance to super-accurate atomic clocks, GPS coordinates, etc., all for a difference of 60 nanoseconds, yet has never mentioned the possibility of c being off.

Why has noone discussed the possibility that c is just 60 ns faster than previously thought? Perhaps neutrinos travel at the TRUE, faster c and light in a vacuum (or quantum foam of said vacuum) slightly slows light down by a very a small amount?

I'm merely wondering why this hasn't been discussed at all. Humans measuring c as 60 ns off seems a lot more plausible than faster than light travel with all the paradoxes that it introduces like breaking causality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ehryk (talk • contribs) 09:06, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I'll just say that any science relating to tachyons, right now, is embryonic at best; namely, we haven't even established their existence with any reliable certainty. It may be that c was miscalcuated by 60 ns (highly unlikely), or that somebody at CERN's calculations were off (somewhat likelier, although the results were the same every time).

This is just an anecdote, but it may (partly) answer your question:

As far as I know, Albert Einstein himself never said—one way or the other—that FTL travel was impossible; rather, that as an object aproached c, its mass would increase to the point that it could never achieve said speed, but only travel at a speed arbitrarily close to it. Also, Neils Bohr (to whom—along with Ernest Rutherford—we owe the current, subatomic model) even went so far as to suggest that c may not be so much an "upper limit," as much as an "assymptote." Viz., an object can travel either faster or more slowly than c, just not at c.

At any rate, FTL neutrinos, right now, remain highly speculative, so please take all this with a grain of salt. Pine (talk) 09:31, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

If c was only important for the speed of light, this may be an option. However, the quantity is interrelated with other physical constants and formulas. For example, E=mc², which is used in radioactive decay, c² = 1/(ε₀μ₀), which influences electromagnetism. It's not that simple to redefine c, even our standard unit of length (meter) is defined relative to the speed of light. I would think 'fixing' the neutrino problem in this way, 'breaks' a whole lot of other scientific models. -- Lindert (talk) 09:36, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

This possibility was actually discussed here in November. See item #1. 98.248.42.252 (talk) 09:52, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

• According to Faster-than-light neutrino anomaly, "The particles were measured arriving at the detector faster than light by approximately one part per 40,000". According to Speed of light, "in 1975 the speed of light was known to be 299,792,458 m/s with a measurement uncertainty of 4 parts per billion". 86.176.209.243 (talk) 14:54, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The speed of light, like any dimensionful constant, isn't really a true physical constant. You can set all such constants equal to 1 by choosing appropriate units. So, these constants are nothing more than an artifact of the freedom to use inconsistent units for the same physical quantity. So, if you want to add up two distances, you are free to to use different units for the two distances, but then you need to correct for that by multiplying one by some conversion factor. You are also free to declare on obscure philosophical grounds that the two distances are somehow fundamentally different, hence you need to assign different dimenensions to them, which then leads to that conversion factor having to cancel out whatever dimensions you assign to the distances.

This is exactly how the speed of light has to be understood. There exists a four dimensional space-time with the time and space linked into the same structure. However, due to historical reasons we have ended up measuring time in different units than spatial distances, but when in special relativity the two are brought back together and we insist on using the old historic units, conversion factor of powers of c will appear in the equations. Count Iblis (talk) 16:12, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Is that right? I know very little about this, but for some reason I thought that the time dimension was of a fundamentally different nature from the space dimensions (in which case different units would seem to be justified). Is that wrong? Are all four dimensions made "of the same stuff"? 86.176.209.243 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:41, 21 February 2012 (UTC).

I'm very inclined to say "no, this isn't right;" but that would be unfair. Count Iblis is explaining a very commonly-held interpretation of modern physics, which is predicated on the idea that space and time are treated in a similar fashion. This isn't right or wrong: it's a way to interpret certain physical facts. You can interpret physics any way you like; the more you understand the physics, the more freedom you have in your mind to play with different interpretations, and select the ones that help you do what you want to do - whether you want to harness physical laws to improve an application in engineering, or if all you want is to pursue pure philosophical understanding of physics.

Count Iblis is hinting to a stylistic approach to physics: the interchangeability of time and space in certain equations. Personally, I don't find this approach very useful, at least not in my day-job, even when I need to deal with the intricacies of light physics.

But, when somebody says that the time axis is "identical" to the spatial axis, only measured using different units - this is just wrong. I've heard this explanation many times from many physicists. Nonetheless, it is incorrect: some physical and empirical laws are different with respect to the time and space variables. For example, consider the heat equation or the diffusion equation; these equations have an opposite sign on the differential operator with respect to time, and identical signs on each spatial differential operator. Consider the Schrödinger equation (and the Dirac equation), where there is an explicit derivative with respect to time, (not space), equated to a complex differential operator that defines the system's total energy. Consider Maxwell's equations; there is no time-and-space symmetry in the equation for the corrected Ampere's law. The differential operator with respect to time evolution is equal to a geometric operator on three spatial axes. (You can't swap time and space variables and "switch units" and get a correct answer!) Space and time are not interchangeable; they are not equivalent-but-measured-in-different-units; the speed of light c is not a scalar constant that magically turns time into space. While that makes for neat philosophical rumination, it is exactly wrong. It defies empirical measurements; and physics is not mathematics because we use empirical measurements to keep ourselves and our equations grounded in reality.

When somebody says "time and space are the same," they're glossing over a lot of empirical facts in order to make a hand-wavey metaphor that isn't even very helpful. It doesn't help you in applied situations; and it surely doesn't help you understand the complex interplays of energy and matter as they evolve in time and space - because the equations don't work that way. How can you apply relativity - the study of the relationships of relative motion - when you can't even define motion rigorously? How can you speak quantitatively about the speed of light, and entirely fail to consider the physics behind the defining equations for the speed of light?

With respect to the original question, the simplest way to explain the discrepancy is that the neutrino speed was measured "relative" to the speed of light; as has been explained above, the precision of the measurements, relative to measured speed for light, is very high. It is plausible that the accuracy of the measured neutrino speed is not very good. Nimur (talk) 22:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Just this afternoon it was announced that the whole FTL neutrino episode may have been caused by a loose fiber-optic connection between one of the GPS receivers and a computer. [27] Dragons flight (talk) 23:03, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Announced by whom? I can not find this announcement, or a publication, or a press-release, on either the OPERA Gran Sasso web page nor on the CERN main news page. Have you found this announcement in a reliable source yet? Perhaps we should wait for a real review before jumping to conclusions. Nimur (talk) 23:15, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I did find this report, Error Undoes Faster-Than-Light Neutrino Results, on the "blog" for Science, which tends to be a reputable publication; but it still sounds like an unofficial break. I can't say I'm surprised; I've suspected instrumentation error since the earliest reports. I'll still wait for a full write-up. I'm mostly baffled how so many reputable physicists could have failed to account for such a glaring instrumental accuracy anomaly while reporting such precise numerical results to peer-reviewed publications. Nimur (talk) 23:21, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It's on the website of Science (in a news / blog section) [28]. A blog on Nature's website [29] also reports the story and quotes from an "official OPERA statement". Dragons flight (talk) 23:25, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Falling balls

Since gravity is always the same, would a ball dropped from a certain height hit the ground at the same time as a ball rolling down an inclined plane from that height? Whoop whoop pull up ^{Bitching Betty | Averted crashes} 13:44, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

No. The rolling ball has to deal with rolling resistance and with more wind resistance than the vetically plummeting ball. --Tagishsimon (talk) 13:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

What about a frictionless inclined plane? Whoop whoop pull up ^{Bitching Betty | Averted crashes} 13:50, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, no: consider a plane "inclined" so that it was a kilometer long and dropped by a meter (ignoring Earth's curvature). How would your puck (as it's not rolling, no reason to use a ball) cover that distance in the 0.45 s it takes to fall a meter? (The mathematical answer is that your speed at any given height is the same between sliding and falling, but since you obviously slide sideways, you're not moving down as fast.) --Tardis (talk) 13:59, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) No. For a ball dropping free the potential energy is converted into kinetic energy, so you can calculate the vertical velocity from the height dropped (if you neglect the air resistance). Rolling down the inclined plane you need to provide rotational energy, and also to get to the ground at the same time the speed down the plane would need to be faster than the vertical component, hence you'd need more energy to get there at the same time. - David Biddulph (talk) 13:55, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Or in force terms the inclined plane is still always pushing upwards ob the ball (has an upward component to its reaction) which slows the acceleration downwards. --BozMo talk 14:36, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

That only matters in the real world. In a frictionless world, it's irrelevant. StuRat (talk) 20:05, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I see whoop whoop is back after a few days absence asking weird questions he probably already knows the answer to, or does he just have a giant book full of daft questions to ask at a geek party, and just trots out a couple each time to see if there is anyone out there to talk to? Stop it Sir. Wickwack60.230.221.101 (talk) 15:24, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Do you mind?! Whoop whoop pull up ^{Bitching Betty | Averted crashes} 16:57, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I like to think of the Wikipedia Refdesk as building up a huge database of (sometimes) answered questions, which someday your phone will be able to rummage through whenever you or your child decides to ask it something. So asking a lot of questions, if they're interesting and haven't been addressed before, is still useful. That said, I think frequent questioners should think about starting a project to better index the archive, in the process documenting more clearly that they've consulted it. For example Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Science/2008_May_3#Rolling discusses whether a ball would roll on an inclined plane, so we'd have been a bit better off if it had been linked right from the top of the question. Wnt (talk) 19:54, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

It's not for me to mind, whoop whoop, but I am dissapointed. I agree with Wnt that RefDesk is a potential resource of answered questions, but doubt that it will ever serve a reference role anywhere near as good as Wikipedia itself, expecially if it mostly comprises Dorothy Dix questions from a minimal number of OP's like whooop whoop. There are a number of internet alternatives to RefDesk, but they all seem to be aimed at high school students seeking help with assignments. There is a need for something aimed at people with good minds pursuing science as an advanced hobby. There is a need for something for people who have genuine questions on anything at any intelectual level. RefDesk is the best available for this purpose, as it is for people just seeking answers to anything that is not to do with high school syllabi. Unfortunately RefDesk is somewhat clogged with contrived weird questions, and a percentage of answers provided by persons who express opinions, as distinct from referenced facts. Both discourage people from submitting good questions that adress a real need, and discourage subject experts from having a browse and maybe submitting an answer on something they know about. If people think that OP's have a real need, then respondents are likley to spend time helping. If potential respondents think the questions are submitted merely to provoke discussion, or just to bulk up the material, they won't want to waste their time on it. I think it more important to adress this than worry about smart indexing. If whoop whoop or anybody else thinks some aspect of knowledge is missing, write an article and put it in Wikipedia. WP is fabulous, and where we look first. This is not to say RefDesk isn'y valuable - it is. But it's nowhere good as it could be. High school students should be directed to sites that cater for them. Wickwack58.170.151.127 (talk) 01:10, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

If the plane is frictionless, the ball wouldn't roll. DMacks (talk) 16:22, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Correct, it would then slide. In this case the block would still slide to the bottom last, since it would need to accelerate to a faster speed, which takes more time. However, it wouldn't be as slow as if it also had to spin up to speed, too. StuRat (talk) 20:09, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Draw one vector pointing straight down from the inclined plane - that's gravity. Now draw another vector perpendicular to the inclined plane until you get back to it - that's the force the inclined plane has to deliver to keep the object from moving straight through it. The remaining line, equivalent in magnitude to the gravity times the cosine of the angle the plane makes from the vertical, is the effective force on the object. And the distance the object has to travel is increased by the inverse of this amount. So, unless I'm wrong, the effective time to reach the end should be increased by the inverse square of the cosine of the angle from vertical. Wnt (talk) 20:18, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

To further complicate the question, what if a massless particle with an electric charge is either pulled directly to a location of opposite charge, or slides down a frictionless plane towards it, in a vacuum either way (and assuming the plane doesn't conduct the charge any better or worse than the vacuum, so that the attraction is the same at each step) ? I'm guessing that it would indeed arrive at the same time both ways, if such a set-up were actually possible. And, to take this thought experiment to the extreme, what would happen if the particle sliding down the incline had to go over the speed of light to arrive at the same time ? StuRat (talk) 20:13, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

If there are no non-conservative forces (like friction & air resistance, etc.) then energy would be conserved. If both start from the same height then they have the same gravitational potential energy. Therefore, they will have the same kinetic energy when they reach the ground, and therefore the same speed. So no, they will not arrive at the same time, but they will have the same speed when they reach the ground. The one on the inclined plane will arrive later. PhySusie (talk) 21:27, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

In the original post, yes, but not in the massless version I suggested, where there is no kinetic energy. StuRat (talk) 07:17, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes - I was referring to the OP not your version StuRat (which is why I didn't indent) - thanks for the clarification. PhySusie (talk) 15:50, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Discharge tubes

Source of Questions A and B

Source of Questions C and D

About discharge tubes:

A) Why is it that, for helium, neon, and argon, the central portion of the tube is brighter than the ends, but for krypton and xenon the ends are brighter than the central portion?

B) What does a discharge tube containing radon look like?

C) Why do hydrogen and deuterium have different spectra when their electron configuration is exactly the same?

D) Would the discharge tube for tritium look as different from the ones for hydrogen and deuterium as the deuterium tube is from the hydrogen tube? And what about the tubes for quadium and quintium?

Whoop whoop pull up ^{Bitching Betty | Averted crashes} 14:12, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Answering (c): probably because those are two different pictures (H₂, D₂), and the camera settings are not the same. The hydrogen exposure time is shorter than the deuterium exposure time; thus, it appears dimmer. — Lomn 14:29, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

...Though for the sake of completeness I'll note that the atomic emission spectra of hydrogen-1 and deuterium really are slightly different (but you wouldn't expect to see it without sensitive instruments). The derivation of the Rydberg constant assumes a stationary nucleus—that is, that the center of the nucleus sits at the center of mass (barycenter) of the nucleus-electron system. In practice the nucleus is not infinitely massive with respect to the electron, and so there are (very small) adjustments to the apparent Rydberg constant made when using the Rydberg formula for each isotope of hydrogen. The lowest-energy Balmer line is centered at 656.3 nm for hydrogen, and 656.1 nm for deuterium, for instance. There are also appreciable differences in the ultraviolet spectra of the molecular H₂ versus D₂, though this contribution to the photographs should be small for discharges imaged through UV-opaque glass. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:40, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Radon emission spectrum. I don't have a ref handy for the actual intensities of each. DMacks (talk) 16:18, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I imagine that the answer to C) is that the central portion of the tube is narrower, making the discharge more intense. I am not sure that you are correct that Kr and Xe are brighter in the end sections than the centres, although the contrast between them is much less. They do have a bright area at the very ends of the tubes around the electrodes, but then so do all the other tubes. SpinningSpark 15:37, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

That's A). And I meant that for He, Ne, and Ar, the middle third of the tube is the brightest, but for Kr and Xe, the outer two thirds are the brightest. Whoop whoop pull up ^{Bitching Betty | Averted crashes} 16:45, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

event horizon

How far away would I have to be from the event horizon of a black hole with an event horizon of 100,000,000 light years so as not to get sucked into it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.212.189.187 (talk) 15:47, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

That depends on how fast you're traveling and what direction you're going relative to the black hole. Whoop whoop pull up ^{Bitching Betty | Averted crashes} 16:46, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

...and on how much thrust your propulsion system can produce. (If you have a hyperdrive, leave this question blank). Gandalf61 (talk) 16:48, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)See here. Whoop whoop pull up ^{Bitching Betty | Averted crashes} 16:50, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

If we make lots of simplifying assumptions (non-rotating black hole, ignore relativistic corrections etc.), the formula for the Schwarzschild radius tells us that the acceleration due to gravity at an event horizon of radius r is c²/2r where c is the speed of light. A quick back-of-an-envelope calculation shows that the acceleration due to gravity at an event horizon of radius 1 light year is 1/2 a light year per year, which is about 4.8 m/s² or roughly half g. As this falls off with 1/r, the equivalent figure for r = 100,000,000 light years will be very small indeed. Gandalf61 (talk) 17:06, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think you can ignore relativistic corrections in this case. :-) If your distance from the event horizon (as measured with a ruler) is d, and that distance is small compared to the Schwarzschild radius, then the acceleration needed to stay put is about c²/d. Note that this goes to infinity at the event horizon. -- BenRG (talk) 00:05, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Wouldn't r=50,000,000 ly? So given the assumptions... how far away? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.212.189.187 (talk) 18:04, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

As noted, it depends on how fast you can accelerate and how far away from the black hole you are. Assuming two objects at rest with respect to each other (and handwaving everything else away), gravitational acceleration will always bring them together. Thus, there is no distance at which you can absolutely say "I will never fall into a black hole". — Lomn 19:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Except infinity. Whoop whoop pull up ^{Bitching Betty | Averted crashes} 20:28, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

A diversion utterly irrelevant to answering the question. I will, however, note dark flow, a gravitational effect on objects we can see by still-more-distant objects which are forever beyond our light cone. You can't escape gravity by distance alone; the gravitational effects of any mass extend infinitely with no known or theorized means of artificially attenuating them. — Lomn 21:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Dark flow is just an observed anomalous motion of galaxies. It may be systematic error or a fluke. The authors of the original paper speculated (probably incorrectly) that it's due to gravitational influence from matter beyond the source of the CMBR. That matter would be outside the visible universe by some definitions of that term, but it's still in our past light cone. Gravitation obeys causality just like everything else.

In a ΛCDM universe (where the expansion goes exponential and stays that way forever) it is possible to get so far away from a black hole that you can never fall in, even if you want to. The critical distance, given measured cosmological parameters, is (from memory) about 18 billion light years. -- BenRG (talk) 00:05, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

But you will fall towards the black hole very very slowly. If you start 1m away from the event horizon and not moving compared to it, it will take you over an hour to fall past the event horizon. Gandalf61 (talk) 19:15, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

No, it will take about 1/299792458 of a second. (Proper time. Of course, anyone who stays outside the event horizon will never see you cross it.) -- BenRG (talk) 00:05, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

What? If you start at rest, you aren't going to instantly accelerate to the speed of light... I haven't done the maths, but Gandalf's result looks plausible. --Tango (talk) 12:16, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It's easy to see that Gandalf's answer isn't plausible with even a basic, qualitative understanding of black holes. If the event horizon was only very slowly accelerating or moving relative to the reference frame of an infalling object in freefall, then it would be very easy for a beam of light to travel from a point inside the event horizon to a point outside the event horizon, which of course isn't actually possible.

Ben's answer looks about right to me, at least in the right ballbark. In the reference frame of an infalling particle in freefall, the location of the event horizon is moving at the speed of light by the time the event horizon reaches the infalling particle. So yes, in this case it's 0 to c in 1m. You can't accelerate an object that fast, but if the infalling particle is in freefall, then nothing is actually accelerating. The infalling particle is moving at a constant velocity, which can be taken to be zero. It's actually the event horizon that's accelerating, and the event horizon is just a coordinate location with no physical object attached to it, so it doesn't take any energy for the event horizon to accelerate to c. Red Act (talk) 19:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The event horizon is moving at the speed of light? Where do you get that from? In Schwarzschild coordinates, the event horizon is stationary unless mass is added to the black hole. If an object starts off at rest in Schwarzschild coordinates, just outside the event horizon, then it is at rest relative to the event horizon, it is not moving at the speed of light. --Tango (talk) 00:41, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

It's awkward at best to say that "in Schwarzschild coordinates, the event horizon is stationary", and just wrong to say "if an object starts off at rest in Schwarzschild coordinates, just outside the event horizon, then it is at rest relative to the event horizon". The problem is that near an event horizon, Schwarzschild coordinates are about as far as you can get from forming an inertial frame of reference. Schwarzschild coordinates have a coordinate singularity at the event horizon. Inside the event horizon, the roles of the Schwarzschild r and t parameters are reversed. Within a region of spacetime inside the event horizon that's small enough that it's approximately Minkowskian, two events that differ only in their Schwarzschild r coordinate are time-like separated, and two events that differ only in their Schwarzschild t coordinate are space-like separated. So it doesn't always work to just look at a curve such that dr/dt = 0 and say that it's describing the path of something that's stationary, because dr/dt isn't even a speed when r <= r_s. If you'd like a reference, see section 31.3 of MTW.

Although quantities as measured in Schwarzschild coordinates become undefined at an event horizon, spacetime itself is actually perfectly well-behaved near an event horizon. I.e., spacetime in a small enough region around an event on an event horizon is approximately Minkowskian, and it's possible to define a local frame of reference that's approximately inertial there. Such a region could actually be fairly large in the case of a black hole with r_s=100M light-years, because there'd be very little tidal force in such a case. But the event horizon isn't stationary in any such local inertial frame of reference, even momentarily, so you need to choose something else as defining the origin of the inertial frame of reference spatially. When dealing with an infalling object, the natural choice is to choose an inertial frame of reference in which the object is at rest, which is what I did.

If the speed of the event horizon remained subluminal as measured in any such local inertial frame of reference, then it would be possible for light to escape from inside the event horizon to outside of the event horizon. The local inertial frame of reference could be the proper frame of a small spacecraft whose forward end contains a laser that gets turned on very shortly after the front end of the spacecraft crosses the event horizon. If the event horizon just consisted of a set of points that's moving subluminally in that local inertial frame of reference, there'd be no reason why the light from that laser couldn't reach the back of the spacecraft before the back reached the event horizon, which would violate the whole idea of what an event horizon is. Red Act (talk) 05:57, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

The nearest an unpowered object can orbit a nonrotating black hole indefinitely is 1.5 times the event horizon radius. Closer than that, you need active propulsion to avoid falling in. -- BenRG (talk) 00:05, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Wow! to every body else, Thanks to Ben.165.212.189.187 (talk) 15:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Earth/Moon tidal locking - timescale

When did Earth's moon become tidally locked wrt the Earth? The tidal locking article gives a formula for calculating the time the locking will take, but without knowing the initial rotation speed of the Moon, that's not directly helpful. Given the different physical characteristics of the two hemispheres of the Moon, one might surmise that the locking is pretty ancient. Every source I've found simply describes the process whereby bodies come into lock, and doesn't give even the handwaviest guestimate at when this happened. Given the somewhat uncertain origins of the Moon, does this simply mean that nobody really knows when they came into lock? I can't really think of a sensible experiment to resolve this, either. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 16:55, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm always up for a bit of hand-wavy guessing. The article on tidal locking shows a few estimates assumptions we can make to reduce the formula to

$t_{\textrm{lock}}\quad \approx\quad 6\ \frac{a^6R\mu}{m_sm_p^2}\quad \times 10^{10}\ \textrm{ years},$

thus eliminating the need for the initial rotation speed. Plugging in the values, I get a figure of somewhere in the region of 3.5 million years. This seems quite short to me, so please check my working, but it doesn't conflict with the claim here that "[The Moon] seems to have been tidally locked in its current position for more than 3.5 billion years" (if the Moon is assumed to be 3.5 to 4 bn years old), so it might be correct-ish. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 17:32, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Good link! Just for future reference I'll snag the literature reference from that forum [30] which says that "We show that there is less than a 2% probability that the oldest lunar impact basins are randomly distributed across the lunar surface. Furthermore, these basins are preferentially located near the Moon's antapex of motion, and this configuration has less than a 0.3% probability of occurring by chance. We postulate that the current “near side” of the Moon was in fact its “far side” when the oldest basins formed. One basin with the required size and temporal characteristics to account for a 180° reorientation is the Smythii basin." Ai, redlinks! 4 million articles and still not enough! Wnt (talk) 20:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps the time since the last rotation of the Moon relative to Earth can be discerned from the amount of wobble remaining (presuming that the wobble attenuates over time) ? Of course, having been struck by meteors since then might have introduced new wobbles, complicating matters. StuRat (talk) 19:59, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Libration#Lunar libration gives the causes of the "wobble" and they aren't things that I would expect to attenuate. Remember, there isn't friction and air resistance and things in space, so your usual intuition about damped oscillations doesn't apply. --Tango (talk) 22:39, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Won't the same force that causes tidal locking (the heaviest part of the Moon wanting to always face the Earth) continue to attenuate the wobble over time ? StuRat (talk) 04:59, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

That's not what causes tidal locking. I suggest you read the articles. --Tango (talk) 12:11, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Since both the Earth and Moon have a tidal bulge, meaning more gravitational attraction is experienced towards the bulge, any attempt by either body to rotate, even slightly, from the position where the two bulges point towards each other should be resisted. This should continue, although to a smaller degree, no matter how little the wobble is. Thus any wobble should be reduced until this force is countered by equal "pro-wobble" forces. Have we reached that equilibrium point yet ? StuRat (talk) 18:38, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Living planet

Would a living planet be possible? Whoop whoop pull up ^{Bitching Betty | Averted crashes} 22:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Isn't that what the Gaia hypothesis is all about? Viriditas (talk) 22:51, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I can imagine a situation where one very successful organism (say a plant we accidentally introduce to a planet we visit) covers the entire surface of a planet, except the poles, perhaps. Not quite the same as the planet being alive, but close. StuRat (talk) 04:57, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Microbial life already does that. Viriditas (talk) 05:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I mean a single organism, like a giant plant, not trillions of separate organisms. StuRat (talk) 05:04, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

What about a colonial plant, like the quaking aspen? Plasmic Physics (talk) 09:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I can see an extremely successful fungus-like organism spreading over an entire planet's surface. Seems unlikely that any organism could spread through a planet's core, though I suppose not impossible. Goodbye Galaxy (talk) 14:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The Earth may well be described as a living planet per the Gaia hypothesis; but if we put that aside and consider something more akin to The Immunity Syndrome (Star Trek: The Original Series), the problems are more conceptual than physical. After all, ordinary comets, if low in rock content, are made of the right ingredients to compose familiar living organisms; if one possessed a method for maintaining a sturdy "membrane" around itself (perhaps aided by being particularly massive) it could retain its gasses and expel its waste ingredients. Solar energy could maintain a slow metabolism. It might even (very very slowly) propel itself by releasing gas, and have the intelligence to spot other comets which, every once in a very long while when it was very lucky, it might try to devour.

The problem, of course, is how does this come to exist? In something the size of a planet, if there are multiple genomes scattered around which can independently change, then they take up arms against one another and define themselves as independent organisms, i.e. cancer. But if there is only one central genome that controls everything, competing only against itself, how can it evolve? In any case behaviors like rocket jetting and solar collecting need to be established somehow, and trial and error is unlikely to be an option. So in the absence of evolution we have to turn to creationist explanations - somebody made the thing as a spaceship, habitat, etc. Such a thing is plausible as an advanced biotechnology, though not necessarily sensible. Wnt (talk) 15:52, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Considering such an organism, probably a big fungus-like colony organism that's developed on an earth-like planet - it's going to have to get its energy from the system's star (just like earth's ecology is ultimately almost 100% solar powered), so it would make sense to cover the surface of a planet. However I'd doubt there'd be much point the organism extending deep into the planet, there probably wouldn't enough exploitable energy there to be worth the energy cost of penetrating the rock. LukeSurl ^{t c} 18:38, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Another scenario that's even more sci-fi - an advanced civilisation engineers a living entity they place in a stellar orbit in a dusty region. It's designed to get energy from the star, and gain its nutrition from the accretion of the dust. Let's say our aliens did a really good job in the engineering/got super lucky/expertly tended to the lifeform for eons and such at no point in the lifeform doesn't die. Theoretically you could have a living entity that's slowly growing and eventually becomes planet sized - though I'd imagine the inner parts would die for the reasons discussed above, and you'd have a living shell surrounding a non-living core. Crazy speculation I know, but hey, it's fun. LukeSurl ^{t c} 18:51, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

(ec) In the computer game Alpha Centauri, also known as Civ in Space, the colonists find large patches of pink fungus all over the planet. As the game progresses, the player eventually finds that (spoiler!) the fungus is a single sentient organism, so every time the player has been tearing up fungus, it's as though the player had been tearing out neurons from a living brain. This has been making the organism angry. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:57, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

(ec)Note that the simpler colonial organisms described closely follow Armillaria solidipes and Pando (tree) - however, our colonial organisms inevitably reach a size and lifespan where they can no longer effectively evolve. I think that inevitably they must give way to, or at least hybridize with, their smaller cousins in order to maintain the genetic capability to survive, much less compete.

As for an entity feeding on dust, the main issue there is that anything it hits will be going very, very fast. Either it has to be made out of adamantium, or it has to be able to consciously match courses with its "prey" using a good knowledge of orbital mechanics. Wnt (talk) 19:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Regarding the lack of evolution making it unable to compete, that's why I proposed a scenario where an already evolved life form is introduced to a new planet, with ideal conditions, but no competition. Just as rabbits overran Australia, you might find that one plant is able to take over the new planet. A changing climate might still be a problem, especially if the plant manages to change the climate itself. Perhaps it could spread more towards the poles or the tropics, as conditions change.

As for feeding on space dust, in an early solar system with an accretion disk, most of the dust will hopefully be going about the same speed and direction as the life form. StuRat (talk) 21:30, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Mars analogue mission and food study

Why is this study being done?[31] I thought we already had most of this data. Mary Roach spends half her book talking about it in Packing for Mars: The Curious Science of Life in the Void (2010). Viriditas (talk) 22:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

It looks to be a sort of special internship program at the University of Hawaii NASA Astrobiology Institute. They've got a little bit of a sensationalized press release, and they're pitching it as a "Mars Mission" simulation, but if you look closely, their applicant prerequisites almost exclusively single out hard-sciences Ph.D. students who are about half-way through their degree program. The study's scientific objectives were made pretty clear in the link you sent. The same research group also runs a summer workshop in Iceland, "Water, Ice and the Origin of Life in the Universe". Nimur (talk) 02:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

They know the answers to most of these questions already, so it seems like they are repeating past experiments. In Roach's book, the previous experiments took place in hospital beds and labs, so this is more of an in situ experiment. However, one would also expect to see them test inflatable habs or modules like MARS-500 with aeroponic devices. After all, the long term solution to the problem described in the study is fresh food. And if they are going to send the habs in advance to areas of Mars that have subsurface water, why not send aeroponic habs staffed by agricultural robots, first? Viriditas (talk) 04:48, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

February 22

Waterworld planet?

according to this]. The temperature of this planet is really high then how come there are a bunch of water? Isn't water just going to boiling up and disappeared all?Pendragon5 (talk) 01:30, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Jean's escape equation defines the time-constant for atmospheric evaporation. The more massive the planet, and the smaller its radius, and the colder its atmospheric temperature, the longer it takes for the gas molecules to escape into space. If astronomers discover an atmosphere that appears to be out of place or "unstable" - in other words, the equation predicts that the gas should have evaporated by now - then something neat is happening! Perhaps water is being produced on the surface by geochemical processes. Perhaps life-forms are producing the water! The results of this new exoplanet, GJ 1214 b, have only just been made public, so it's probably going to be some time for planetary scientists to figure out what's really going on. The thing that boggles my mind is that a solar system can exist whose planets have a 2-day orbital period! What a strange star. Around our sun, that orbital period to place the planet awfully close to the solar chromosphere... You can read all about this star and its solar system in our article, GJ 1214. Nimur (talk) 02:21, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Holy cow, that's mean something else is going on that we can't quite explain yet with our knowledge. Yea you're right, i believe there are infinite combinations of anything in the universe. So there may be some kind of chemical reactions that is going on in the planet that keep the water from boiling even with high temperature. Scientists have already made standard what for kind of environment is fit for life form but our standard may not be the same as somewhere else in the universe. Just because we haven't encounter the life form lives in extremely condition (a condition where most scientists would think that life organism is not possible). I even have weirder thought. We deem to think if there is life form then there must be water. No water = no life form. But well due to the infinite amount of combination perhaps somewhere in the universe that some organisms live of from fire, plasma, electricity...? And even developed into advanced civilization like us. And our earth condition would not be tolerable to them as their environment won't tolerable to us. Pendragon5 (talk) 04:46, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The atmosphere is probably mostly steam. Lower down, where pressure is higher, liquid water may exist above the normal boiling point. Even weirder, as that article says, there could be "hot ice". Many of the gas giants in our solar system have a similar situation, but with methane in gas, liquid, and/or solid forms (even though it's almost all gas here on Earth). StuRat (talk) 04:53, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Is there any evidence apart from the density that this is made from water? Perhaps it is largely oxygen, with solid oxygen core, or alternately it could be a nitrogen planet, or even neon, which should be a common element, or may be a carbon dioxide ball, like Venus almost is. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:11, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Of course, any ordinary exoplanet specialist reads the pop-sci press release and mutters to themselves, "the press is going nuts over indirect observation! Why can't they contain that enthusiasm and just wait (five or six years) for the direct atmospheric spectroscopy results!" This exoplanet and its solar system have unique and fortunate geometry. The plane of orbit of the planet is approximately aligned with the direct radial line-of-sight to Earth. The proximity of the planet to its sun means that the planet's orbital period is very short, something like 40 hours. So, the planet occults its sun, as viewed from Earth, almost every other day! (Actually, it's more complicated, compounded by geometry and of course always limited by funding for shared space-telescope time; in the original paper, A super-Earth transiting a nearby low-mass star, the authors report four transit observations, spaced over about two months, spaced approximately 16, 3, and 16 days apart). Amazingly, those observations were conducted using eight 400mm telescopes - only slightly larger than my amateur-hobbyist equipment! These transit observations will continue to be observable from Earth. This will allow direct spectroscopic measurement of the planet's atmosphere, but that sort of work will almost certainly require space-telescope time. There are huge engineering hurdles to overcome, essentially because the signal is so weak. Nonetheless, astronomers and exoplanetary experts have an immense toolkit for pulling very periodic, very weak signals out of the noise. Indubitably, this specific solar-system was sought out because it satisfies the requirements for rapid and repeatable planet/sun occlusion observations. No doubt, direct spectral measurements of the atmosphere are the goal of the ongoing research. In fact, in the original discovery announcement, even the abstract states this goal quite clearly: "The atmosphere is probably escaping hydrodynamically, indicating that it has undergone sig- nificant evolution during its history. The star is small and only 13 parsecs away, so the planetary atmosphere is amenable to study with current observatories." Nimur (talk) 19:48, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

In our own system, Venus lost its water through a combination of high temperature and relatively weak gravity. But a much more massive planet has a higher escape velocity. See Atmospheric escape - there is a relatively simple mathematical relation between the escape velocity and the mass of the individual gas molecule which can reach it and fly out into space. Water is below that threshold on super-Earths; even hydrogen is below that threshold on gas giants. Wnt (talk) 15:57, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Oxidation of Cyclohexanol to Cyclohexanone

Hello. I would like to synthesize cyclohexanone from cyclohexanol by oxidation with sodium hypochlorite serving as an oxidizing agent and acetic acid acting as a catalyst. Prior to workup, why must I neutralize the reaction mix? Thanks in advance. --Mayfare (talk) 05:31, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

"Because the procedures tell you to"? As you learned from answers to your question a few days ago, your lab procedures are all about separating the product from...everything else. No seriously, somehow you have to separate the product from the whole reaction-mixture mess (solvents, reactants, byproducts, decomposition products). Sometimes it's easy because the product has some noticeably different property (solubility, boiling point, etc.) than all that other stuff. Sometimes some certain components of the "other stuff" are too similar to the product to be easily separable from it. And sometimes there are chemicals in there that would create a certain hazard if they were subjected to the separation process. So the solution (ha!) is to convert the "too similar" or "could be hazardous" material into something more easily separable or safer to manipulate. DMacks (talk) 07:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The answer here depends on your "workup". But I notice that acetic acid is miscible not only with water, but with chloroform and hexane, according to the article. Salts, on the other hand, don't tend to get along too well with those two. Wnt (talk) 18:48, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Kalate or potassate

1. If KO⁻ was a legitimate ion, what would it be called; likewise, what would NaO⁻ be called - natrate, or sodate?
2. Why is HgO⁻ called mercurate and not hydrargyrate?

Plasmic Physics (talk) 09:16, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

1. IUPAC says potassate[32]
2. hydrargyrate seems to be only used in dictionaries and not by people who want to write about the topic. IUPAC says mercurate. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:40, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

KO⁻ would really be an a pair of ions, K⁺ and O²⁻. It's potassium oxide, K₂O, with one K⁺ missing. Same for NaO⁻. Calling these ions potassate or natrate is misleading because it's implying covalent metal-oxygen bonding, and that MOH (i.e. KOH or NaOH) are acids.

Alkalide might be of interest. It seems both types of name (sodide/natride and potasside/kalide) in use. --Ben (talk) 10:50, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. Of course, I was speaking hypothetically. The reason for me asking is that I'm working on a personal categorisation project that requires a universal nomenclature system. I devised one that is heavily IUPAC based, but applied to a more general sense - I am applying substitutiveorganic nomenclature to all compounds, while excluding special names like alkanoic acids. The categorisation tree is based on molecular structure, have a look if you want, but please don't make edits - User:Plasmic Physics/Aldehydes. A result of this, is parent hydrides of inorganic substances require new names, sodium hydride becomes sodane, hence, sodium hydroxide becomes oxidanylsodane. Earlier, I mentioned excluding special names like alkanoic acids, this means that names like propanoic acid becomes 1-oxidanyl-1-oxidanylidenepropane. For the time being, I'm avoiding cyclic compounds, I have not yet composed a funtional prioritisation system for them. Plasmic Physics (talk) 11:40, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

OK. Why invent a new system of nomenclature when several already exist? Is it because none so far are universal? --Ben (talk) 14:23, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, this new universal system is simply to make categorisation easier, by being able to more closely compare structurally similiar compounds.

do lobsters use their claws

do lobsters use their claws- --80.99.254.208 (talk) 09:18, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Is this a serious question? Plasmic Physics (talk) 09:34, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes. I don't know how I can make my question clearer :/ --80.99.254.208 (talk) 10:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Except for lobsters that don't have claws, such as the sculptured slipper lobster (Parribacus antarcticus, Lund, 1793). The article for that beastie needs a reliable reference that it is fished commercially, even if as by-catch, and the biography for the zoologist is woefully lacking in text and supporting references. Just thought I'd mention this.--Shirt58 (talk) 11:17, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I think it is a corrolary to natural selection / survival of the fittest, that if they didn't need to use their claws, they would have lost them, instead of wasting metabolic load growing them. In any case, I can tell you that if you grab one from behind, they try to reach back and grab you, same as a crab will. And if they can't reach, they'll reach out and try to nip the person in front. Wickwack124.182.22.17 (talk) 12:28, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps the intended question was "What do lobsters use their claws for?" (I went to lobster and searched for claw but didn't see anything specific about their uses.) RJFJR (talk) 14:28, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Lobsters use their claws for crushing and breaking open prey [33]. They are purely weaponry, lobsters are apparently unable to use their claws to pass food to their mouths due to their great size. The OPs question was not in the least bit foolish; there seems to be an element of sexual selection in the great size of the male crusher claw [34] and it is perfectly possible that the answer could have been that the claws were entirely for display. SpinningSpark 15:12, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Another possibility is non-functional "claws" that are just to scare off would-be predators. Or, they could be vestigial claws which no longer serve a function, but have not yet evolved away. So, while lobsters do use their claws, the question was entirely reasonable. StuRat (talk) 18:23, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

question

what is the meaning of t in eriochrome black t indicator115.184.178.226 (talk) 16:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

We have an article Eriochrome Black T but it does not answer the question. One could also ask why an indicator that changes from red to blue is named "black". Many other titration indicators seem to have equally puzzling names Fast Sulphon Black F, Naphthol Green B etc. SpinningSpark 18:05, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Peripheral nerve injury specialist

What is the specialist for peripheral nerve injury called? Is it a neurologist or maybe a traumatologist? --Broadside Perceptor (talk) 16:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

If the nerve injury was caused by trauma then a traumatologist may well be involved in the first instance but likely to refer the condition to a neurologist once the diagnosis has been made and a secondary treatment plan established. Richard Avery (talk) 19:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks.--Broadside Perceptor (talk) 22:23, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

'Timing' a Year

Could someone check the validity of this statement for me: Since a year is really 365 days + 6 hours long, if you started a stopwatch at noon on January first and stopped it when the Earth had finished one complete orbit, you would stop at 6PM on January 1st, correct? --CGPGrey (talk) 18:02, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

That would be true if a year was really 365 days + 6 hours long, but it's actually a bit less than that. Specifically, I believe you want the tropical year, which is around 365.24219647 days long. That's 365 days and 5.81271528 hours or 365 days, 5 hours and 48.7629168 minutes or approximately 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes and 45.775 seconds. StuRat (talk) 18:04, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

As StuRat notes, it really depends on your precise definition of a "complete orbit"/your frame of reference. For the time taken for the earth to complete an orbit of the sun, with respect to the fixed stars (i.e. an "outside" perspective) you use the sidereal year. It's only about 20 minutes longer than the tropical year, clocking in at 365 days, 6.153 hours. Regardless, 365.25 days is a good approximation for most purposes. See year for more definitions and more info. LukeSurl ^{t c} 18:24, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

And those are just averages, it varies very slightly from year to year because of gravitational perturbations from other bodies like Jupiter. So if you tried it just one year it should be different. And of course if you tried it this year it wouldn't work because there is a leap day.. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Do you want to think about that last statement a bit, SMW :-) ? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.188 (talk) 21:11, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

He correctly pointed out that the calendar year is 366 days long in 2012. The sidereal year, and the solar year, are both still approximately "365.25-ish" days long for the period starting on January 1, 2012, ending the following year after one (solar or sidereal year period) has elapsed. Nimur (talk) 23:03, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Meaning that if you start at noon on January 1st 2012, you would end at ~6PM on December 31 2012, not at ~6PM on January 1st 2013. 98.248.42.252 (talk) 04:29, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

No hair theorem?

So an object appears to slow down so much that it can never appear to cross an event horizon, unless you have infinite time to wait or are yourself crossing the event horizon, right? How to reconcile this with the fact that black holes have no hair? If you have a one solar mass black hole formed 10 billion years ago and you just threw another solar mass in, shouldn't the newer mass be higher? When it's far away you can detect two masses, one of whom is very much not a black-hole. At infinite time (and not even because of Hawking radiation, but if that didn't exist) the same masses you were previously detecting is now only detectable as a single 2-solar mass object - which is most definately a black hole - with only the properties allowed by the theorem. How long are you allowed to detect non-allowable quantities of what you're throwing in before the no-hair theorem kicks in? Infinity minus a Planck time? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:25, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Although you can't see an infalling object cross a black hole's event horizon (unless you're falling in, too), you don't just see it sitting there forever, either. Instead, it very quickly redshifts down to not being visible. Gravitational differences from a no-hair black hole also rapidly dissipate away at the speed of light, in the form of gravitational waves. Red Act (talk) 19:32, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Hydrogenated Corn Syrup?

I bought some imported chewing gum from a local Japanese market. Like most imported food, it had an English language USDA style nutrition label glued on top of the Japanese nutrition label. The gum had the word "sugarfree" in English on the original packaging. But the English translated nutrition label noted the first ingredient was "hydrogenated corn syrup". I've never heard of hydrogenating corn syrup, or even why you'd want to do that. Or even if it's scientifically possible. So does it even exist? And what would be the advantage of using it? --76.79.70.18 (talk) 18:30, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Corn syrup is not simply an extract of corn, but is produced by acid hydrolysis or amylase treatment of cornstarch. My first guess would be that the label means that, but of course catalytic hydrogenation is a different process used to produce partially hydrogenated vegetable oil and thus trans fats. I assume it's an error because cornstarch shouldn't have double bonds to saturate in this way. Wnt (talk) 18:40, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It's almost certainly referring to Sugar alcohol. It's the carbonyl group that has been hydrogenated, rather than the olefin groups in a hydrogenated fat (For some reason, it's more common in chemistry to talk about reducing a carbonyl group, but hydrogenating a carbon-carbon double bond, despite them being chemically quite similar.) Buddy431 (talk) 18:59, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Doh, I totally forgot about the acyclic aldehyde/ketone groups. Thanks for pointing that out! Checking for sources to be sure (what I should have done if I weren't being so ass-sure about the lack of double bonds), I get [35] "The product is produced by hydrogenation of corn syrup over a nickel catalyst.", [36] "The maltitol-containing mixture of sugar alcohols is suitably derived from a hydrogenated starch hydrolysate which is another name for hydrogenated corn syrup.", "Hydrogenated Corn Syrup, Technical Grade, is an aqueous solution containing about 70% total solids consisting of D-Sorbitol and other polyhydric alcohols. " etc. Wnt (talk) 19:10, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Cooling speed

I was wondering: If I have a cup of hot coffee to which I intend to add cold milk from the refrigerator, and I'm going to leave the coffee alone for 10 minutes before I drink it, will the coffee be hotter in 10 minutes if I add the cold milk now, or if I add the cold milk in 10 minutes? Our article cooling is, disappointingly, a disambig page. I would have thought it would be great to discuss the subject of "cooling" at the cooling article. Our article section Thermal conduction#Fourier's law makes it pretty clear that, with respect to conduction, the answer is to add the cold milk now if I want the coffee to be hotter in ten minutes; but I can't tell whether the same guideline applies for the aspects of cooling by convection and radiation. Or how important each of the three methods of cooling is, in this case, relative to each other. (Hence my desire for a treatment of overall cooling at the cooling article.) Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:36, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

• I'll answer in terms of radiation: hotter if you added the cold milk now, as the rate of cooling is faster for when an object is at a hotter temperature. This is described in see Stefan–Boltzmann law (I'm assuming adding the milk won't change the radiative properties of the drink significantly). I'd imagine convection would be the same, though I don't know the process that governs this. LukeSurl ^{t c} 19:25, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, all modes of heat transfer are more efficient when a larger temperature difference exists. So, to make the coffee cool down the most, let in cool black, then add milk straight from the fridge. However, if you have to take the milk out of the fridge at the start, then the cold milk will also be warming up while we wait to add it, which complicates things. StuRat (talk) 21:22, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

We've answered this question many times before! We saw it in 2009 and 2008. It's been answered so often, I even wrote the Official Science Reference Desk Coffee-And-Milk Simulator, and provided source-code for it! (Unfortunately my web-server is no longer operating the web-based coffee-and-milk temperature graphing website, but if there's a strong desire, I can probably track that disk-image down and boot the computer up). Anyway, I wouldn't use the Stefan-Boltzmann law - while it is true that hot coffee does radiate heat, it's also transferring heat convectively. This is orders of magnitude more efficient at heat-transfer for normal coffee and ambient room temperatures; so we can basically neglect radiant heat loss during reasonable time-scales. This means you should probably use Newton's law of cooling as your starting-point physical model. Finally, the way the decaying exponentials math works out, you will always end up with a colder coffee if you add the milk sooner (contrary to some of the earlier answers posted); but there may be pathological confounding experimental factors; it's remotely plausible that convective turbulence or chemical changes could significantly affect the thermal properties, but this is pretty unlikely. Verify for yourself! Run the calculations! Try plugging my equations into the web-based Octave (or download GNU Octave for free to run on your own system)! Perform the experiments! Kitchen science is cheap and easy! Nimur (talk) 22:54, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm still confused... I even remember seeing an episode of an Australian popular science show about this question when I was a kid and they came to the conclusion that adding milk later would result in colder coffee.. I think I'll need to run the experiment.. Vespine (talk) 23:42, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

After a quick look at this discussion, the 2009 dicussion, and the 2008 discussion, it is apparent that nobody has remembered evaporative cooling, nor followed two good principles: a) separate out the phases in the process, and b) put some numbers on it.

There are 2 phases: add the milk, and cool down.

Lets look at adding milk first: Typically, you would bring water to boil (373 K), then give it a short cool down to avoid "burning" the coffee. Water is now at (say) 370 K, and is (say) 90 ml. You'd keep the milk in the bottom row of the fridge, so it will be about 280 K. Add 10 Ml of milk to the water - equilibrium temperature is now (10*280 + 90*373) / 100 = 363.7 K. We now begin 10 mins cooling. Significant cooling is by TWO processes: convection of the sides of the cup (exponential decay toward ambient - say 298 K) and evaporative cooling of the top surface (also exponential decay toward 298 K) You can neglect radiation. Calculating this is a litle complex, we don't know cup surface roughness etc etc, so lets say temperature drops to x% (say 0.7) each 10 minutes. So the temperature ends up as 298 + (363.7 - 298)*0.7 = 348.4 K.

Now look at adding milk last. First, the cooling phase: after 10 minutes, temperature is 298 + (370 - 298)*0.7 = 348.4 K. Now add the milk: equilibrium is (10x280 + 90*348.4) / 100 = 341.6 K.

Conclusion: Adding milk first gives a higher end temperature (348.4 K vs 341.6 K) as the lower temperature during cooldown gives lower loss of energy. Ratbone60.230.199.35 (talk) 01:27, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Evaporative cooling should also be more efficient with hotter coffee, just like every other cooling process, which means the milk should be added last, to cool it down the most, just as you, and most of us, have said. StuRat (talk) 02:02, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

It appears I have misspoke in my most recent comment. I can be wrong sometimes! I should have said, "you will always end up with a warmer coffee if you add the milk sooner." I apologize for the error. Nonetheless, the analysis was valid; this result is always true, regardless of the quantity of milk or the rate of cooling. StuRat is correct, though; you can roll evaporative cooling into the Newton's function, to first order. Nimur (talk) 02:14, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

It apears that Ratbone has assumed that when milk is added, it is stired in, as is done in England and Australia. If cream is added and left to float on the top, as some countries do, then heat lost via evaporation cooling will be prevented until the cream warms up. So, adding cream at the start will likely give you hotter coffee after the 10 min cooldown period, as only convection will be in full effect, whereas adding it last will allow convection AND evaporative cooling the whole time. It will depend a lot of the cup, but typically evap cooling will be more effective - styrofoam cups for instance will have enough thermal resistance to effectively prevent convection. You can use Pressman's empirical formula ( R = 7400 A^-0.7) where R is thermal resistance cup to ambient, A is area of cup outside exposed surface area), Rconvec in series with cup wall thermal resiatnce) to roughly estimate convection heat loss. I can't remember of hand how to calculate evap heat loss, but without cream, Ratbone is right, it will be significant. Wickwack121.221.99.50 (talk) 07:31, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

RIIIGHT! Ok, "warmer", now it makes perfect sense! :) Vespine (talk) 02:32, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you all for the thorough answers — but is there an article somewhere that discusses why radiation should be neglected in the analysis, and why convection affects the cooling much faster? Comet Tuttle (talk) 04:35, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Not sure about an article, but radiation becomes more of a factor when you have thousands of degrees of temperature difference, especially if the other types of heat transfer are blocked, say by a vacuum. StuRat (talk) 05:59, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Concrete Resistant Materials

Hi all. I'm working on a project to design an apparatus to measure the setting time of concrete according to ASTM C 403. One of the components that's needed is a rigid container to hold the concrete during the testing and I'm trying to find some information on materials that are resistant to drying concrete to make clean up easier. I've tried Google, but I haven't found anything really applicable so any help you could give me would be appreciated. --Aces57 (talk) 19:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Do a web search for concrete forms. I think most of these are made of wood and they are meant to be removed, so you can probably make your container out of wood. RudolfRed (talk) 20:22, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Concrete forms are made of wood, metal or fiberglass and sprayed with a releasing agent, a light oil, to allow forms to be removed with a certain amount of hammering. Polyethylene/polythene doesn't stick well to concrete either and might be obtainable in an appropriate size fairly cheaply, depending on how rigid you need it to be, or can be placed in a rigid frame. Acroterion (talk) 20:27, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

February 23

Mpemba effect

Ok, guys, I need a favour. I have just lost a pub quiz and been made to perform a humiliating forfeit involving a Manchester United shirt. The question that swung it was "Which freezes first, water at 20C or water at 80C?". I answered 80C, due to the Mpemba effect. The quizmasters said the answer was 20C and that it was a common misconception that hotter water freezes faster. What I need from you is a long list of reliable sources (ideally academic papers) that say the Mpemba effect is real. There are a few references in our article, but they are mostly scientists trying to explain the effect rather than saying they have actually tried it. If you have sources or arguments saying that I'm wrong, then I don't want to hear them - this isn't about the truth, this is about proving me right! Thanks in advance for your help! --Tango (talk) 00:47, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

There's this one from the American Journal of Physics. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:01, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm looking for more, and the general conclusion (including the one taken in the above article) is that the effect is not always present, which is also reflected in our own article. I also just noticed that that article is also linked in mpemba effect. Anyway, the question is bad. There are variables (known and unknown) that can change the answer, which means you deserve at least half a point. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:05, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, half points weren't an option - it was the final round and the rule was that you get 2 points very every correct answer, but get nothing at all for the round if you get an answer wrong (you could leave questions blank with no penalty)... --Tango (talk) 01:43, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

As stated, the question is ambiguous. Water doesn't freeze at 20C or 80C! The question needs to be more explicit.

• Are they going to start the stopwatch, submerge both samples in a sub-zero cryostat ethanol bath, and clock which sample freeze first? If so, unfortunately for Tango, the initially-20C sample will freeze first.
• Are they going to carefully cool the 80C sample to 20C; start the stop-watch, and then submerge both samples in a sub-zero cryostat ethanol bath? If so, Tango may be correct; the initially-80C sample may freeze first, [depending on the temperature of the bath. In fact, the initially-20C sample may not freeze at all, even if brought to -10 C!

The Mpemba effect isn't something I'd want to get into a debate about in a bar. It's a purely empirical result. We have very handwavey ways to explain it theoretically, but it's not exactly a simple effect. It doesn't have a clean answer. The linked paper is really the nail in the coffin: they have a hard time even defining what it means to freeze! (Sometimes, only the water in contact with the walls froze!) The effect is real, repeatable, and measurable, but it's complicated. I'd say it's too complicated to give a binary "yes/no" binary answer to this sort of trivia question. As evidence, the linked paper provides a matrix of starting temperatures, times, experimental conditions, and qualitative results. It's not even monotonic! In different cold-bath temperatures, the susceptibility to freezing for the initially-warm water is either greater or less than the initially-cold sample! All we can say is, when you're poking around in the noise-floor of experimental science, (like trying to determine exactly when water will freeze), the facts aren't very pretty. Nimur (talk) 02:02, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Sheep Shearing? Surely!

I've looked around and can't seem to find the answer to this burning question, I need a source to settle an argument--

When is a sheep's first shearing? That is, is a lamb sheared? Is there a substantive difference between sheep wool and lamb wool so the shearers wait until the lamb pubesces into a sheep?199.94.94.20 (talk) 01:53, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

The implication in Sheep shearing is that it's first done whenever it's practical. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:43, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Fasting blood glucose

Directions for preparing for this test generally say not to eat or drink anything other than water for 8 to 12 hours before the test. I know why the 8-hour minimum, but why is there a maximum? What happens after 12 hours that affects the reading? Bielle (talk) 04:14, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Your blood sugar drops dangerously low, I imagine. This certainly should be avoided by diabetics, but possibly also hypoglycemics. StuRat (talk) 06:03, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

February 14

Number naming system

Why is the system for naming large numbers built around 1000 rather than some other power of 10 (e.g. 10000)? --108.225.117.174 (talk) 01:04, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Completely abritrary choice, I think. Ancient Egyptians had dedicated names for powers of 10 up to 1,000,000. Greeks had a system based on 10,000. East Asians use 10,000 as well: see Myriad#History and usage.--Itinerant1 (talk) 01:24, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

I suspect it's related to why we put commas (or decimals) every three digits. That is, you can remember only so many digits at a time, maybe around 3-4. So, dividing numbers up in groups of 3 or 4 makes sense. I occasionally need to copy a number without divisions every few digits (like with some web sites that want a credit card number but don't allow spaces) and find it quite irritating. StuRat (talk) 02:09, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

See Digit grouping. Note that "groups of three" is not a cultural universal, even today. Lakh describes how in India the least three significant digits of an integer are grouped, and subsequent digits are grouped in pairs. As StuRat suggests, their naming is reflected by this grouping. Powers of ten in Thai all have their own names, and are not grouped. Where you would call 2,345,678 "two million, three hundred forty-five thousand, six hundred seventy-eight", in Thai ๒๓๔๕๖๗๘ would be spoken as "song lan, sam saen, si muen, ha phan, hok roi, chet sip paet" -- literally "two million, three hundred-thousand, four ten-thousand, five thousand, six hundred, seventy-eight". -- 110.49.235.82 (talk) 06:38, 14 February 2012 (UTC) (I've used our article's Thai transliterations here. What little Thai I know I learned phonetically, and have come up with my own transliteration which often fails to precisely match what I see written.)

Apparently they do group the last two digits. Otherwise it would end "...seven tens and eight ones". StuRat (talk) 21:57, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Only in the same sense as with English where, "Spelled-out two-word numbers from 21 to 99 are hyphenated (e.g. fifty-six)" (from WP:Numbers#Typography -- do we have a real article which gives a name to this practice?) and certain two digit numbers have their own special names ("eleven, twelve, ... nineteen" in English and "sip et, song sip et, ... kao sip et" (eleven, twenty-one, ... ninety-one, where "et" is used for one instead of the regular "nueng") in Thai). While we write and speak it this way, we don't usually think of this as a "group of two" in English, do we? Also note that the commas I put in the transliteration wouldn't be present in the actual Thai as they don't even put spaces between words. -- 203.82.91.156 (talk) 02:59, 15 February 2012 (UTC) (Previously posted as 110.49.235.82 -- Thailand yesterday, Malaysia today.)

Is there an accepted name for systems of naming numbers where powers of 1000 play an important role, say, rather than 10000? Also, the metric system seems awfully unfair on East Asians. 96.46.204.126 (talk) 00:18, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

RANSAC number of iterations

In the article on RANSAC it is said that the k (number of iterations required) in this formula

$k = \frac{\log(1 - p)}{\log(1 - w^n)}$

is for the case where the n points are selected independently and that "the derived value for k should be taken as an upper limit in the case that the points are selected without replacement". Is that saying that k, as calculated by this formula is slightly bigger than it needs to be or smaller than it needs to be? In my algorithm I need to select without replacement and I want to play it safe, so is k large enough? 41.164.7.242 (talk) 11:21, 14 February 2012 (UTC) Eon

Slightly larger than it needs to be. If you sample without replacement, then the likelihood that a later iteration selects a set of points which are all inliers is higher than for earlier iterations. If you sample with replacement, it's constant over all iterations. 131.111.255.9 (talk) 17:07, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the article talks about replacement after each datum selection within a single iteration. After each iteration the state (other than a random seed) resets. Hence neither the "with replacement" nor the "without replacement" scenarios they are referring to has the current iteration affecting future iterations. What puzzles me is that it instinctively feels like k should be larger if one (like I have to do) doesn't do replacement. 196.215.142.253 (talk) 20:16, 14 February 2012 (UTC) Eon

Diophantine equations

I'm in the throws of doing Project Euler problem 66 which involves solving x^2 - D*y^2 = 1.

I have ascertained that continued fractions of D^0.5 are involved and it often works. You evaluate the continued fraction till just before the repeat

EG 7

7^0.5 = [2;1,1,1,4]

2+ 1/ (1+ 1/ (1+ 1/ 1))) = (I've put cont fract coeffs in bold)
2+ 1/ (1+ 1/ (1+ 1))) =
2+ 1/ (1+ 1/ 2)) =
2+ 1/ (3/ 2)) =
2+ 2/3 =
8/3

And we have 8^2 - 7*3^2 = 64 - 7*9 = 64-63 = 1. OK

EG 19

19^0.5 = [4;2,1,3,1,2,8]

4+ 1/ (2+ 1/ (1+ 1/ (3+ 1/ (1+ 1/2 )))) =
4+ 1/ (2+ 1/ (1+ 1/ (3+ 1/ (3/2 )))) =
4+ 1/ (2+ 1/ (1+ 1/ (3+ 2/3 ))) =
4+ 1/ (2+ 1/ (1+ 1/ (11/3 ))) =
4+ 1/ (2+ 1/ (1+ 3/11 )) =
4+ 1/ (2+ 1/ (14/11 )) =
4+ 1/ (2+ 11/14 ) =
4+ 1/ (39/14 ) =
4+ 14/39 =
170/39

And we have 170^2 - 19*39^2 = 28900 - 19*1521 = 28900-28899 = 1. OK

But it doesn't seem to work for 13

IE 13

13^0.5 = [3;1,1,1,1,6]

3+ 1/ (1+ 1/ (1+ 1/ (1+ 1/ 1))) =
3+ 1/ (1+ 1/ (1+ 1/ (1+ 1))) =
3+ 1/ (1+ 1/ (1+ 1/2)) =
3+ 1/ (1+ 1/ ( 3/2)) =
3+ 1/ (1+ 2/3) =
3+ 1/ ( 5/3) =
3+ 3/5 =
18/5 =

And we have 18^2 - 13*5^2 = 324 - 13*25 = 324-325 = -1. WHY -1?

What am I doing wrong? -- SGBailey (talk) 11:26, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

You might find the article on Pell's equation useful with this. Basically the problem you're running up against is that the period for the continued fraction for √13 is odd length and the technique you're truing only works for even period lengths. There is a simple work-around though: just use two periods instead of one to force the length to be even.--RDBury (talk) 12:24, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks - worked a treat. -- SGBailey (talk) 16:06, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Planar graphs and coloring

I was trying to read the following proof I found on the internet and could not understand the first line. The graph in question is planar (and that's all we know about it):

" Without loss of generality, we may assume that all the faces of our graph are triangular, because adding edges just makes a graph harder to color. (We are coloring vertices.) Let V, E and F be the number of vertices, edges and faces. Every edge is in two faces, and every face has three edges, so F=(2/3)E. We have V−E+F=2 by Euler's relation, so V=E/3+2. Since the sum of all vertex degrees is 2E, the average degree of a vertex is 2E/V=(2E)/(E/3+2)<6. "

My question is how can one assume without loss of generality that the faces of our graph are triangular? Thanks-Shahab (talk) 14:55, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Suppose you had a face that wasn't triangular; maybe a square. Add an edge going across it, dividing the face into two triangles. Since adding edges makes coloring harder, if you can color the new graph, you can color the old graph, and you've gotten rid of one non-triangle face. Repeat for all faces.--121.74.118.113 (talk) 15:08, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) What they are claiming is that assuming triangular faces does not affect their claim about coloring planar graphs. The rationale is that adding edges makes a graph harder to color, because more edges means more conditions for each vertex's color to satisfy. Look at it this way: if given a graph with non-triangular faces, add in edges until it has all triangular faces. Then, apply the coloring algorithm (if it's a constructive proof), or convince your self that the valid coloring exists (if the proof is existential). When you are done with the coloring, you can remove the edges that you added, and still have a valid coloring for the original graph. Does that help? SemanticMantis (talk) 15:10, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

It does. Thank you both-Shahab (talk) 15:16, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

February 15

A Quick Proof

Just a quick question here to all, my algebraic topology is a bit rusty. I know that a 2-torus is not homeomorphic to a 3-torus. And my argument is that because their fundamental groups are not isomorphic there is no way to continuously deform one onto another. Is this right? And I am pretty sure there is a theorem like this (which I am using) but I can't remember its name. Oh and just for curiosity, what are their fundamental groups? And yes, the context stems from Valentine's day, having an argument whether human male and females bodies are topologically equivalent or not. I say they aren't.  :-) - Looking for Wisdom and Insight! (talk) 03:48, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

The fundamental group is a homeomorphism invariant; that means that if two spaces are homeomorphic, they have the same fundamental group. Topologists would never have bothered studying the fundamental group if it weren't homeomorphism invariant, just as algebraists are only interested in properties of groups which are isomorphism invariant. So yes, your reasoning is correct. I don't think this fact has a name; it's a straightforward check.

The fundamental group of a product is the product of the fundamental groups. Since the 2-torus is the product of two circles, while the 3-torus is the product of 3, that makes their fundamental groups $\mathbb{Z}^2$ and $\mathbb{Z}^3$, respectively.--121.74.100.56 (talk) 05:05, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Wait, now I am confused by something in your response. I thought that 1-torus is the ordinary torus (a doughnut with one hole). A 2-torus is a double torus and it has two holes, from attaching two 1-tori together. And a 3-torus (triple torus) has three holes. So I thought that the fundamental group of an ordinary 1-torus is just $\mathbb{Z}^2$. So wouldn't the fundamental group of 2-torus be $\mathbb{Z}^4$ and the fundamental group of 3-torus be $\mathbb{Z}^6$? - Looking for Wisdom and Insight! (talk) 08:14, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I interpreted 2-torus and 3-torus to refer to the number of dimensions, not the number of holes. In retrospect, that doesn't make much sense when discussing humans.

The fundamental groups of the double and triple torus aren't that simple; you need to use the Seifert–van Kampen theorem to compute them (the computation is on that page). In particular, they're not abelian. For the n-torus, the fundamental group is $\langle A_1,B_1,\ldots,A_n,B_n|A_1B_1A_1^{-1}B_1^{-1}\ldots A_nB_nA_n^{-1}B_n^{-1}\rangle.$--121.74.100.56 (talk) 08:35, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Maybe I am missing something here, but rather than calculating fundamental groups, wouldn't it be simpler to argue that the 2-torus cannot be homeomorphic to the 3-torus because they have different Euler characteristics ? Gandalf61 (talk) 09:04, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Well for me the simplest argument for me would be the intuitive one. If two tori have a different number of holes, then one must have more holes than the other which means that the one with the fewer holes must be torn/cut to create more holes which is not a continuous deformation. But for a "formal" proof, I just thought of fundamental groups because I don't know much about algebraic topology and fundamental groups is all I remember from the introductory class I took. - Looking for Wisdom and Insight! (talk) 09:42, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Looking for Wisdom: that's the same problem as you have with distinguishing a sphere from a torus. It might seem intuitively clear that the torus has a hole and a sphere does not, but it's not easy to give a precise proof that they're not homeomorphic, because it's not easy to define precisely what a "hole" of this kind means. That's why we need fundamental groups or some other algebraic invariant. – b_jonas 10:04, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

The dimension is homeomorphism invariant. 74.98.35.216 (talk) 11:35, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

(An aside on motivation): Why do you think that human males and females have different topological genera? I'd say they both have genus 1, due to the connection between the mouth and anus. Other bits of plumbing (male or female) don't really connect in the same direct manner. There are all sorts of finer scale connections, but if you start counting that way, you'd have to include tear ducts and sweat glands, etc., etc. and end up with a very large genus. I don't want to debate finer points of human physiology here; just curious how you're thinking of the problem. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:10, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm ... "My dog has genus 1" ... "How does he smell ?" ...Gandalf61 (talk) 16:25, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Ha--Ok, so the genus of a mammal is rather ill-defined. There's all kinds of flaps and switches inside that change the communicativity, I was thinking of the body in the position where the flaps lead air to the lungs, and not the stomach. If we consider that nostrils can be connected to the stomach, then I guess a the dog is topologically equivalent to a block with a Y-shaped hole in it. Doesn't that have genus 2? I guess my point was that, if you can agree on a genus for a representation of a human male, it should be the same as that of a human female. It's not as though there's two different ways to get to open air from inside a uterus. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:22, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Central tendency and usefulness of measurements

if measures of central tendency and dispersion are given,then how these measurements can be useful? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.211.216.154 (talk) 14:13, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

I created a section header for you. This will happen automatically if you hit the "ask a new question" button at the top of the page. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:01, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand your question. If you are asking why measures of central tendency are used, they are used to indicate the "middle" value of a set of data. If you are asking when one type or another should be used, here's some ideas:

1) An arithmetic mean (arithmetic average) is perhaps the most common. It's useful when data is symmetrically distributed, like in a bell curve. For example, you might find the arithmetic mean of class grades, to determine how well the students are getting the material. If the mean is 95%, then they are getting it. If it's 50%, then they aren't.

2) A weighted arithmetic mean is useful when some data points need to be weighted more than others. For example, in the US Presidential election, each state gets a different number of electoral college votes. If you were doing polling to try to determine who would win the election, you might want to weight the state results by the number of electoral votes in that state.

3) For data which is not symmetrically distributed, like incomes and wealth, an arithmetic mean is meaningless. Imagine Bill Gates in a room with 1000 minimum wage workers. The average wealth of each person in the room would be millions of dollars, which would make you think the room is full of rich people. Dealing with percentiles is more useful here. You could say 99.9% of the people earn minimum wage, and 0.1% earn billions.

4) The mode is just the most common number in a set. Let's say you run a restaurant and want to add one item to your menu. If you keep track of the things people request, the most often requested item, which you don't already have, might be a good choice to add.

5) Geometric means, logarithmic means, etc., are useful when data varies in those specific ways. See central tendency for others. StuRat (talk) 19:45, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Re #3, the arithmetic mean is definitely not meaningless for asymmetric distributions. It's just not always what we want to look at. It's also useful to explicitly mention the median which is the 50% percentile, and useful as a central tendency measure in some situations. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 05:45, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Do you have an example of when the arithmetic mean for an asymmetrical distribution is meaningful ? StuRat (talk) 16:55, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

To be honest your suggestion that the arithmetic mean (or its counterpart for probability distributions, expectation) can be in some situations meaningless is so alien to me that I'm not sure what kind of example you're looking for. Unlike median, mode, geometric mean and many other measures, the mean is additive, and as addition is such a basic concept, so is arithmetic mean. Similarly, variance is additive for independent variables. This is why expectation and variance are the key attributes of distributions that are at the heart of all probabilistic and statistical analysis. When you want to learn about a distribution, first learn its expectation and variance. Anything else is a bonus which only in specific cases is of much use (one such case is your income example, where the median better captures our intuitive notion of what a "typical" person earns).

All that said, here's an example from a domain I'm involved in. For Bitcoin mining, the expected time to find a block (for the whole network or for any individual miner) follows the exponential distribution, which is pretty much asymmetrical (skewness 2). But the mean of this distribution translates directly to the average rate of finding blocks, and hence, the profitability of mining. As anyone who has invested thousands of dollars into mining hardware will tell you, this is pretty important.

Another important example is Von Neumann–Morgenstern utility. A rational agent will maximize his expected utility. In general there is no utility function for which maximizing the median (or any other measure) isn't irrational.

And a simpler example - A restaurant receives 100 orders pay day, with amounts distributed in some asymmetric way. Given that, what you need to know to deduce the total revenue of the restaurant is the order amount mean, not some other quantity. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 19:41, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't follow. Surely to get the mean, the total revenue was divided by the number of orders in the first place. Or did you have in mind that the historic mean would be multiplied by the number of orders one night to come up with an estimate of that night's receipts ? I'm not sure how useful that would be, say if the asymmetrical distribution is due to different demographics, like drunken businessmen paying on their company account (spending $$$), versus families trying to save money (spending $). In that case, you would really need to at least weight the averages by the number of each type of order, to get a reasonable estimate. StuRat (talk) 23:47, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you could for example base future mean estimates on history. But that doesn't really matter, the point is that the mean is a meaningful thing to say about the order amounts, other measures don't carry any useful information. Of course each amount should be weighted by its probability/frequency. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 06:49, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Limit conditions

Under what conditions on the functions f and g does the following statement hold:

$\lim_{x \to \ell} \left(f(x) * g(x)\right) = \left(\lim_{x \to \ell} \, f(x)\right)*\left(\lim_{x \to \ell} \, g(x)\right) ,$

Where * denotes either addition, subtraction, multiplication or division. I understand that there may be different conditions depending upon the operation. Let's assume that the left and right limits of f are the same, and likewise for g. Is the statement always true? I'm really looking for the least possible. — Fly by Night (talk) 15:30, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

For addition, subtraction and multiplication you just need that the limits in the RHS exist; this is for any * that is continuous. For division you need the denominator to be non-zero to get continuity so add that the limit of g is not 0, which you would need for the RHS to be defined anyway. So the short answer is if the RHS is defined then the LHS is defined and they are equal.--RDBury (talk) 15:54, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

... but of course the LHS may be defined when the RHS is not. This seems to relate directly to a subset of the classic indeterminate forms. — Quondum^☏✎ 16:15, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

When you say "are defined", what are the explicit conditions? Do we simply need f and g to be continuous, and for each function's own left and right limit to be equal? If so then what is the proof for this? Which articles contain this information? — Fly by Night (talk) 16:09, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Continuity at the limit is not required, only the two-sided limit (one-sided for limit at ∞), and that the limits on the right are finite (for them to be defined). — Quondum^☏✎ 16:24, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply, but I don't find your reply particularly illumination. Please supply more details and, as we are at a reference desk, links to the appropriate articles. — Fly by Night (talk) 17:15, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

When RDBury says "defined", the limit is being referred to, not the functions f and g. Implied is that the limits are finite. Continuity of a function is not a prerequisite at any point of its domain for the limit to exist; I can provide a simple example of an everywhere-discontinuous function that nevertheless has a limit. The domain can even be discrete. So the problem statement is a little sparse on detail, and the natural thing is to assume that we are dealing with real numbers, that the limit meant is the ε–δ definition, and that the limiting value ℓ is either −∞, finite or +∞. Anyhow, perhaps Limit of a function#Properties will answer much of your question. — Quondum^☏✎ 18:44, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but having read your reply and followed your link, I can't really say that it helped. Thank you very much for your efforts, but I would be very grateful if someone with a friendly nature were to answer my question. I am very sorry to have to say this, but I find your replies somewhat condescending. If people are to learn then they should feel welcome and comfortable. Your replies to this post, and the post below, do neither of these. Let me thank you once again, but request that you do not involve yourself any further. — Fly by Night (talk) 22:32, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

I think RDBury's last sentence nails it. I'm not sure, but I think Spivak's textbook "Calculus" (really an elementary real analysis text) covers this if you want to get into the gritty details. SemanticMantis (talk) 22:54, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Just to clarify, f and g don't have to be continuous, what I'm saying is the equality follows from operation * being a continuous function R×R→R. Also I wasn't considering infinite limits but the statement would still be true excluding the well-known indeterminate forms ∞−∞, ∞/∞, etc. Again it's nothing really to do with f and g but whether the operation * can be extended continuously to include infinite values. For example × is a continuous function of R×R→R which can be extended continuously to R∪{∞}×R∪{∞}→R∪{∞} if you exclude the points (0,∞) and (∞,0).--RDBury (talk) 01:21, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Non-Standard Proof

Does anyone know a proof of the statement:

$\lim_{n \to \infty} \left( 1 + \frac{r}{n} \right)^n = e^r \,$

which does not use the binomial expansion and the fact that

$\lim_{n \to \infty} \left( \frac{n!}{n^k \, (n-k)!} \right) = 1 \, ?$ — Fly by Night (talk) 16:06, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Substitute n=mr. — Quondum^☏✎ 16:19, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply, but I fail to see how this answers my question. Your suggestion leads to much the same proof. I was hoping or a qualitatively different approach. As we find ourselves on a reference desk, links to articles would be greatly appreciated. (Forgive me for not making this explicit; I had assumed it to be a tacit assumption.) — Fly by Night (talk) 17:17, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Forgive my brevity – perhaps I was making unwarranted assumptions based on your user page, and it is not clear what level of rigour you need. A proof will depend heavily on how you define the exponential function or exponentiation. The statement can simply be a definition of e^r (def #1 of link), rather than a proof. But first, I think you should give the required starting point: the definition of exponentiation and/or of the exponential function you choose to start with, else it is guesswork what you want. — Quondum^☏✎ 18:18, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

The only unwarrented assumptions you made were those about my mathematical understanding. Because I didn't like your reply, and because I asked you to answer a reference desk question in the spirit of the reference desk (please read the preamble at the very top of this page) does not mean I am some mathematical dimwit that does not understand the exponential function. Please re-read my post, and especially its title. I wanted a non-standard, i.e. non-trivial proof. — Fly by Night (talk) 22:24, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

$\lim_{n\to\infty}\left(1+\frac rn\right)^n=\lim_{mr\to\infty} \left(1+\frac r{mr}\right)^{mr}=\left(\lim_{m\to\infty}\left(1+\frac 1 m \right)^m\right)^r=e^r$ Q.E.D. Bo Jacoby (talk) 19:34, 15 February 2012 (UTC).

Bo Jacoby's "proof" is exactly what I had in mind, but one should note two steps that one should not consider rigorous (which is why I made reference to rigour before): the premises that z^(mr) = (z^m)^r and that lim _m→∞ w^r = (lim _m→∞ w)^r, so it is more a consistency check or plausibility demonstration than a proof. — Quondum^☏✎ 20:11, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks chaps. But this proof is no different in method to the proof I gave and then asked for another proof. I wanted a proof using other methods from different areas of mathematics. Thank you both for your effort, but it isn't quite what I'm looking for. I'm sure you'll agree that making a single substitution of a variable does not give a qualitatively different proof. Maybe the answer is that none exists. Thanks again folks. — Fly by Night (talk) 22:17, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

In all good faith, I think to get the answers you want, you'll need to specify exactly how/where you want to start. As you are probably aware, there are several different schemes for what is a definition and what is a result in this area. It's nothing personal, just an admission that, even in textbooks, you will find different perspectives on what which parts are definitions and which parts are logical implications of those definitions. SemanticMantis (talk) 22:49, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

You got what you asked for: "a proof which does not use the binomial expansion and the fact that $\lim_{n \to \infty} \left( \frac{n!}{n^k \, (n-k)!} \right) = 1$". If that isn't quite what you are looking for, you should ask for what you are looking for. Bo Jacoby (talk) 23:03, 15 February 2012 (UTC).

Alternative approach

Let $f_n(r) = \left(1+r/n\right)^n$. Show that for n large $f_n\le f_{n+1}$ and $f_n'\le f_{n+1}'$ and the sequence f_n and f_n' is uniformly bounded on compact sets. Conclude that $f=\lim_{n\to\infty} f_n$ exists, is differentiable, and f' = f and f(0) = 1. Sławomir Biały (talk) 00:19, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

(The above is for $r\ge 0$. For r < 0, replace $\le$ by $\ge$. Sławomir Biały (talk) 10:42, 16 February 2012 (UTC))

Sławomir ment to say $f_n(r) = \left(1+r/n\right)^n$. Bo Jacoby (talk) 07:29, 16 February 2012 (UTC).

Corrected.Sławomir Biały (talk) 10:42, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

$\frac{d}{dr} \lim_n (1+r/n)^n = \lim_n \frac{d}{dr} (1+r/n)^n$ (!) = lim _n(1 + r / n)^{n − 1} = lim _n(1 + r / n)ⁿ. Thus the function we started with satisfied the DE f'(r) = f(r) and f(0)=1. It must therefore be the exponential function. There is some work to be done to justify swapping the limit and the derivative. Tinfoilcat (talk) 10:00, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, this is the idea. It follows if the function and its derivative converge uniformly on compact sets, which the above argument shows. Sławomir Biały (talk) 10:43, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I hadn't read your post properly, now I see that my idea was the same as yours. Tinfoilcat (talk) 11:14, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Spectral radius of a derivative

I ask for help in understanding the following condition for the use of iterative method in numerical solving of a non-linear equation, given in the relevant article:

...a sufficient condition for convergence is that the spectral radius of the derivative is strictly bounded by one in a neighborhood of the fixed point.

What does "spectral radius" mean and how to calculate it? I've found lots of information both on the Wikipedia and on the web related to matrices and the systems of linear equations, but I am not knowledgeable enough to bind these topics together in my mind. --Esmu Igors (talk) 16:23, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

If you type spectral radius into Wikipedia's search bar then you will find the spectral radius article. If you take the modulus of all of the eigenvalues then the S.R. is defined to be the greatest of these. — Fly by Night (talk) 17:24, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, Fly by Night, for your help, but I have already found this article previously and understand almost nothing in it. Furthermore, while I know how to use matrices for solving simple linear equations, I have absolutely no idea about their usage for non-linear equations (not systems). I know I don't actually know math, but I really hope somebody would point my attention to where actually information about matrices for non-linear equations can be found...--Esmu Igors (talk) 19:45, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

(I could be wrong here, I'm rather rusty on this topic) I think the article must be talking about the spectral radius of the Jacobian matrix for f, which is a matrix of partial derivatives that captures how a point x_n in phase space will move in a small neighborhood of a point x (where the partial derivatives are evaluated), when subjected to the dynamics described by the function f. In effect, the Jacobian serves to linearize the system at a point. This is similar to finding a tangent line to a curve. The same concept applies: in a small enough neighborhood, everything is well approximated by linear relationships. The radius being bounded by 1 has the effect that there is some small neighborhood around x, in which nearby points will converge to x. This is because the spectral radius is the dominant eigenvalue. Thus, if it is less that 1, then the displacement between x_n+1 and x will be smaller than the displacement between x_n and x, and the sequence x_n will approach x. Conceptually, this is roughly analogous to Newton's method. Does that help at all? If not, you might get better answers by explaining in more detail what you are trying to do, and what types of math you are comfortable with. SemanticMantis (talk) 21:03, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

February 16

drawbacks to riemann & riemann stieltjes integral

why we need to introduce a genralisation of riemann integral ? also what are the drawbacks to RS integration ? and what we introduce to overcome that drawbacks? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.139.120.178 (talk) 09:09, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

The main drawback of both the Riemann and Riemann-Stieltjes integrals is the lack of easy theorems that allow the interchange of limits with integration. The Lebesgue integral has better properties from this perspective, in part because it is able to integrate more functions (possible limit functions of sequences). The Riemann-Stieltjes integral is still useful in many situations. In probability theory, for instance, sometimes it is necessary to take a Stieltjes integral with respect to a CDF (a PDF may not exist). Sławomir Biały (talk) 10:53, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Differential equations describing Euler's three-body problem

In Grapher on Mac OS X, explicit two-dimensional differential equations take the form of ${d \over dt}\begin{bmatrix} x \\ y \end{bmatrix}=\begin{bmatrix} \mbox{expression1} \\ \mbox{expression2} \end{bmatrix}, \begin{bmatrix} x \\ y \end{bmatrix}=\begin{bmatrix} \mbox{value1} \\ \mbox{value2} \end{bmatrix}, t=\mbox{from value}...\mbox{to value}$. What would be the general form describing a restricted three-body system containing m₁, m₂, m₃, x_m1, y_m1, x_m2, y_m2, x_m3, y_m3, v_x, and v_y, where

• m₁ and m₂ are the masses of two objects fixed in space,
• m₃ is the mass of the movable object,
• x_m1, y_m1, x_m2, and y_m2 are the x and y coordinates of their respective fixed objects,
• x_m3 and y_m3 are the initial x and y coordinates of the movable object,
• and v_x and v_y are the component vectors of the movable object's initial velocity?

--Melab±1 ☎ 20:24, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

The equations of motion are second order differential equations (i.e. they involve the second derivatives of x and y with respect to time), so if Grapher can only plot first order ODEs (as your description suggests) then you have hit a fundamental obstacle. Gandalf61 (talk) 09:27, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

They are second order as well. --Melab±1 ☎ 21:33, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean by "They are second order as well", but here is an outline of how you find the equations of motion. First you write down expressions for the forces on the movable object due to the gravitational attraction between it and the other two objects - let's call these forces F¹ and F². Note that these are vectors, and the magnitude of each one will be a function of the square of the distance between the movable object and each of the other objects i.e.

$r_{13}^2=(x-x_{m1})^2 + (y-y_{m1})^2$

$r_{23}^2=(x-x_{m2})^2 + (y-y_{m2})^2$

Then you resolve these forces into x and y components, so you have F¹_x, F¹_y, F²_x and F²_y. Then your equation of motion in the x direction is

$\frac{d^2x}{dt^2} = \frac{F^1_x(x,y)+F^2_x(x,y)}{m_3}$

and you have a similar equation of motion in the y direction, involving the y components of the force instead of the x components. I am not going to write out all these expressions for you because that is very tedious, but it is conceptually straightforward once you understand the underlying physics.

As you see, this is not in the format that you requested because it is a pair of second order ODEs, and your format was a pair of first order ODEs, as I pointed out above. Gandalf61 (talk) 10:33, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

February 18

Topological relationship between a sphere and a cone?

slice of sphere and imaginary paraboloid. Dmcq (talk) 14:56, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Specifically, for a story I'm writing, I'm curious if there's any special mathematical relationship between the surface of the sphere of Earth and the hollow stepped cone of Dante's Hell. Is there some clever topological way one can be folded to produce the other? Please to remember, I'm a lay questioner - keep it simple...

Adambrowne666 (talk) 07:58, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, for the simplest topological relationship, homeomorphism, sharp edges and spikes don't matter, so you can smooth them out (our article has a picture of a coffee cup being folded and stretched to make a doughnut). You could easily stretch a closed stepped cone to make a sphere (you could even flip it, so the inside of the cone becomes the outside of the sphere, as long as you're talking about mathematical abstractions rather than solid rock). The problem is that the pit is, if I recall correctly, open at the top - certainly it is in pictures like this: File:Stradano Inferno Map Lower.jpg. You could flatten out the steps of the pit, and stretch it around into a kind of ball shape, but you'd still have a hole that you couldn't close. I don't think there's a way to fold that hole away (or to be more rigorous, I don't think there's a way to map every point on a solid sphere onto a punctured ball continuously), since you fundamentally change the properties of the shape (a ball with a hole in it doesn't have a clearly defined interior - a sphere does). Smurrayinchester 11:52, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Smurray - that's interesting - so you'd end up with a sphere with a hole; makes me think of the 19th Century speculation on the idea of there being an entry to the hollow Earth somewhere around the Arctic. I must admit, I'm being sort of plagiaristic here, referring to the great old Christopher Priest novel The Inverted World, where the protagonists' altered perceptions causes them to see the Earth and Sun etc as pseudospheres. Thanks again Adambrowne666 (talk) 13:14, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

If you allow an imaginary radius as you go up past the north pole you get a paraboloid going off to infinity there from $r=\sqrt{R^2-z^2}$. Dmcq (talk) 15:37, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Dmcq, that's a sort of magnificent answer, but I can't see it - I see from your profile you're interested in the visualisation of mathematics - maybe you could take pity on me and try and depict it to someone mathematically shortsighted? (BTW, I'm fascinated by your link to EPI - gonna look into that further.) Adambrowne666 (talk) 05:07, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

How about this then? If Chariots of the Gods can make money there must be something in trying to sell Dante's hell at the poles with this. ;-) Dmcq (talk) 14:56, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Ultracool! Thanks heaps. I can certainly use that.

Strange voting system

I'm not sure if I read about this somewhere or made it up. Does the following system have a name? Every eligible voter is also a potential candidate. All votes cast for a particular person X get "paid forward" to whoever X votes for. Anyone wishing to be elected votes for themself and receives all votes cast directly for them as well as any that were paid forward from other voters. Votes are paid forward until they arrive at a self-voter, and otherwise (if there's a loop of votes) they never get counted. Sound familiar to anyone? Staecker (talk) 21:37, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Delegated voting, also known as liquid democracy, is close, although it doesn't quite involve the same pooling of votes that goes on here (people nominate themselves as candidates, rather than voting for themselves, though apart from preventing loops that is just a semantic quibble really). Smurrayinchester 21:58, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! That's close enough to probably be what I was thinking of. Staecker (talk) 22:34, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

3y-2x=5+9y-2x

How to graph this equation? I just curious. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.151.169 (talk) 23:59, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

First solve for X or Y (in this case, only Y is possible, and even that will make for a rather dull graph). StuRat (talk) 00:04, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Add 2x to both sides to get 3y=5+9y. Subtract 3y from each side and subtract 5 from each side to get -5=6y. Divide both sides by 6 and switch the sides to get y=-5/6. The graph will be a straight horizontal line at -5/6.--Mattmatt1987 (talk) 17:34, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I was hoping they would do their own homework, after I told them what they needed to do. StuRat (talk) 22:26, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

February 19

Geometric algebra question: degrees of freedom to a k-blade

I am well-aware that for a geometric algebra over the reals, the number of (real) degrees of freedom to a k-vector is given by the appropriate binomial coefficient, i.e. $\tbinom n2$ is the number of real numbers required to specify a 2-blade for a geometric algebra over an n-dimensional real space. However, clearly the number of real numbers required to specify a 2-blade is often less than this; given that every pair of vectors can be specified by 2n, and any 2-blade can be expressed as the exterior product of 2 vectors, a 2-blade cannot represent more degrees of freedom than this, yet the space of 2-vectors is larger for n > 5. So, how many degrees of freedom are required to specify a general k-blade?--Leon (talk) 14:55, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

For a general k-vector, it's n choose k (see exterior algebra). The subvariety of k-blades is (projectively) the Grassmannian of k-dimensional subspaces of the n-dimensional space and has dimension k(n-k) (projectively) or k(n-k)+1 (nonprojectively). Sławomir Biały (talk) 17:11, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The number of degrees of freedom for picking 2 vectors would be n², not 2n, so it's not less than the binomial coeff. This corresponds (sort of) to the dimension of the tensor space being n²; the space of 2-vectors is a quotient of this.--RDBury (talk) 21:22, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

But the question isn't how many degrees of freedom are involved in picking two vectors. A two blade is the wedge product of two vectors (not the tensor product.) The question is equivalent to asking how many degrees of freedom there are in picking two dimensional subspaces (projectively, add one for a scale). In R³ for instance, this is equal to 2+1: a two-dimensional subspace is determined by its unit normal, plus one for scaling. Similarly a k-blades is the wedge product of k vectors. These are in one-to-one correspondence with a trivial line bundle over a Grassmannian. See exterior algebra for a discussion. Sławomir Biały (talk) 02:06, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Sławomir, I think this is a pretty useful result in general, since blades serve a significant role in GA. Do you know of a suitable reference, so that it could be added perhaps to Geometric_algebra#Representation_of_subspaces or some similar section? — Quondum^☏✎ 06:17, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't know about any references that focus on geometric algebra, but for Grassmannians (including the result about dimension) a good book is: Griffiths, Phillip; Harris, Joseph (1994), Principles of algebraic geometry, Wiley Classics Library, New York: John Wiley & Sons, ISBN 978-0-471-05059-9, MR1288523 . The proof of the dimensionality is actually straightforward. Take k vectors and wedge them together $v_1\wedge\cdots\wedge v_k$ and perform elementary column operations on these (factoring the pivots out) until the top $k\times k$ block are elementary basis vectors of $\mathbb{F}^k$. The wedge product is then parametrized by the product of the pivots and the lower k(n − k) block. Sławomir Biały (talk) 11:29, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the detail; I've taken the liberty of copying the reference and your explanation into Blade (geometry) in the interim. Later, we could copy it to the Geometric algebra article. — Quondum^☏✎ 13:59, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

It looked to me like there were two questions, first how many degrees of freedom are there in a picking a blade; and second, how can this number be greater than 2n if that's the degrees of freedom in picking the vectors individually. I was answering the second question.--RDBury (talk) 09:17, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

There was one question, and I (think I) knew that the dimension of a k-blade could not have dimension greater than kn, for an underlying basis consisting of n basis vectors. Anyway, thank you, Slawomir, you have answered my question completely! As for adding the result to the geometric algebra article, I have several textbooks on the matter that don't answer the question (otherwise I wouldn't have had to ask), and given that these are fairly "standard" textbooks on GA I must conclude that it may be difficult to find a reference on GA specifically that is suitable. Is there a name for this result? If so, I can have a glance through Google Scholar to find a citation.--Leon (talk) 12:04, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I didn't really understand the last part of the question, and it looked like you were replying to me instead of the original poster. (The reply did seem strange to me.) Sorry for my confusion. Sławomir Biały (talk) 11:29, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

No problem, confusion often abounds with text based dialog and I was a bit confused myself.--RDBury (talk) 13:41, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

describe conditions that would allow you to martingale

here is an example of a system that allows you to martingale: let's simplify roulette to be a game of red, black, or green, with red and black having a nearly 50%, and equal, chance each of occurring (e.g. 48%), and green being the house's edge (e.g. 4%). The green pays off only slightly better than red or black (e.g. 4x, 10x, whatever), and red or black pay off at an "even" rate (ten dollars gets you twenty plus change - whatever makes it an even bet at 48% chance of winning - if you win, zero if you lose).

a casino feels that roulette players are put off by excessive strings of reds or blacks, so it tweaks the random number generator to work thusly: rather than pick each red/black/green in succession based on a probability, instead it allots 12 red, 12 black, and 1 green token into randomly into a block of 25, doles out the 25 results in succession, then repeats this random allotment. This has the advantage, that, for example, nobody could bet green 50 times in succession without a payoff, nor would it be common for anyone to observe, joining the table, that out of 20 bets on red, only three or four pay off. This would otherwise be a common occurrence.

naturally, although this "seems" more random to the observers or players, it is in fact less random. this is so because rather than being a random walk, the system in some sense has memory.

it is hard to game, as it is difficult to know where the block boundaries are. To really have some confidence in a bet on red, you would have to join after observing 24 blacks: 12 at the end of the first block, and 12 at the beginning of the next. Then you could be sure the halfway point was the 25-block boundary, and now you know the rest of the block will be reds or greens. You can wait for a green if you want to have 100% payoff on a red.

All right, then, it's a bit difficult to game, but nevertheless imminently possible. The reason it is possible is obvious: given sufficient observation and the nature of the system, there are locations wherein a bet has positive expectation.

Now suppose that some stock on the stock market were literally cyclic (like a sine wave) and you had some guarantee of this. Naturally, if you have a guarantee that it will reach 0 again, any bet below zero will have a positive expectation (you can just hold the stock until it reaches 0). Of course, the time value may be such that this is not a worthwhile investment. So, we must consider stocks guarantee4d to follow sine waves and guaranteed to do so with high frequency. For best results, with high amplitude as well, though of course you can repeat smaller bets by buying low and selling high.

Thus, were any stock to be a sine wave of high frequency, we would be guaranteed to make money by placing bets with positive expectation.

returning to games. I would like a generalization of the sufficient and necessary conditions a system must meet, in as general terms as possible, to allow an observer to join and make bets with positive expectation. I gave two systems above: a stock roughyl following a sine wave in price, and a casino that doles out roulette results by allotting them in chunks instead of randomly one after the other. I would like a generalization that extends to every system that can be gamed, and how one can prove or disprove that in such a system, an observer can place bets with probability 1 of a positive payoff, and probability 0 of a negative payoff: and we are talking a single bet. (So that someone with this in proof who is infinitely risk-averse will still place the bet, provided he or she is a good mathematician and believes the premises or conditions are really a correct model of the system in question). --80.99.254.208 (talk) 15:14, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

What you're describing is basically the martingale characterization of algorithmic randomness. In this case, the system must not be computably random.--121.74.109.179 (talk) 20:15, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the link, feel free to make my ramblings leading to it smaller. Could you tell me what it means to be "computably random" and general strategies for deciding this. Could you give me a formalism that I could apply to arbitrary systems to determine whether they are "computably random"... --80.99.254.208 (talk) 20:32, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

What I mean here, is I would like to be able to describe the properties of a system, and apply whatever you tell me to, to decide whether I can ever game it as described. Of course, my assumptions are very important, but so are the tools I'm asking from you in order to be able to follow through on deciding the consequences of those assumptions. Thanks for anything you might have along these lines. --80.99.254.208 (talk) 20:35, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, no. The definition of computable randomness is basically "can't be gamed". So I'd have a hard time giving you an alternate way to recognize it. A good rule of thumb, though, is to consider the law of large numbers; is every sequence of outputs possible? In the roulette case, 49 blacks isn't possible, so you know right away that the system can be beaten.--121.74.109.179 (talk) 21:16, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

To get back to the hypothetical roulette game, actually it would be relatively easy to game. The probably that a green follows another green would drop from 1 in 50 to 1 in 2500 and it's certain that someone would notice. Knowing this, even without knowing there the boundaries are, you'd just have to wait for a green to appear and bet on a color other than green on the next roll to beat the house advantage. This is actually a variation of what card counters do in blackjack, in fact it would be much simpler than card counting.--RDBury (talk) 21:42, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

followup question

in this hypothetical roulette game, after joining randomly how many turns would you have to wait on average before you were 100% sure of the boundary? 84.2.147.177 (talk) 15:06, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

A number n is a possible boundary if the preceeding 25 outcomes contains exactly 12 reds, 12 blacks, and 1 green. The probability for this to happen by chance can be computed, see multinomial distribution. It is $\frac{25!}{12!12!1!}\left(\frac{12}{25}\right)^{12}\left(\frac{12}{25}\right)^{12}\left(\frac{1}{25}\right)^{1}=0.0605092.$ So the first 50 outcomes contains one true boundary and, with 6% probability, one additional false boundary. The true boundary is reproduced after the next 25 outcomes, while the false one is eliminated with 94% probability. Bo Jacoby (talk) 06:53, 21 February 2012 (UTC).

Sorry if I misunderstand you, but I am not interested in confidence levels, but with 100% confidence. Let me give you an example. If you join and the first two results are greens, you have just gained 100% certitude, in two turns, of where the boundary is. (It's in between the two, the first is at the end of the previous group of 25, and the second is the first or the next group of 25 results). So, this is ONE case where you reach 100% certitude. This case has length 2.

And so when you join, there is always a length at which you reach 100% certitude of the boundaries.

What is the average of all of these lengths? (In other words, if I have just joined, I have an average wait time of x turns before I can become 100% sure of where the boundaries are. In practice, it could turn out that I reach certitude after 2 turns, but before I have seen a single result, what is my expected wait for 100% certitude?) --80.99.254.208 (talk) 10:59, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I do understand your question, but I did not provide the complete answer. I merely provided a step. After two results you know the answer (2) with probability 1/25^2=0.0016. So the product 2*0.0016=0.0032 contributes to the average length. After three results you know the answer (3) with probability 24/25^3=0.001536 and the product 3*0.001536=0.004608 contributes to the average length. The calculations becomes increasingly complicated, so it is tempting to make some approximations. The probability that you know the answer when n=25 is very low, and the probability that you know the answer when n=50 is very high, so the average is somewhere in between. Bo Jacoby (talk) 15:19, 21 February 2012 (UTC).

f(1/x)

If I have the graph for a function f(x), what happens to the graph when I turn the function into f(1/x)?190.24.187.123 (talk) 15:39, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

First off, I'd think of the fixed points of the transformation. That is, where x = 1/x. Those would occur at x = 1 and x = -1. The graph at exactly those points will be the same. As the transformation on the x coordinate is continuous and differentiable in those regions, the area around the fixed points before will also be around the fixed points after. However, as x -> 1/x flips the ordering ( 0.99 < 1 before, but 1.0101... > 1 after), the graph will likewise be flipped around the points at x = 1 and x = -1. So if the graph before is increasing through x = 1, afterwards it will be decreasing, and vice versa. The other place to look is at discontinuities. The behavior around x=0 will be interesting. Points just near the right hand side of zero will be thrown right, toward positive infinity, and points just to the left of zero will be thrown further left, towards negative infinity (the zero point itself will drop off the graph). As the transformation is self-inverse, we can also conclude the reverse will happen - points near positive and negative infinity will be brought in toward zero. As the transformation on the x coordinate is continuous and differentiable on each side from very near zero to both positive and negative infinity, you can envision the transformation as a flipping and stretching. - In summary, take each of the positive and negative sides of the graph, flip them around ±1, as appropriate, and then stretch or squash them to fit in their new ranges (non-uniformly, so the most stretching/squashing happens near zero/infinity). Given the non-uniformity in the scaling and the fact that the infinities don't stay out at infinity, it's difficult to exactly visualize what the after graph will look like, but that's the general idea. -- 67.40.215.173 (talk) 18:57, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

February 20

Trig functions

Hey I am in precalculus and need help (not answers) on solving two problems.

My job is to find the solutions of the equation that are in the interval [0, 2π) [couldn't find pi in the special characters.

1. sin 2t + sin t = 0 -- I know this can simplify to "2 sin t cos t + sin t = 0" but if I was trying to find solutions within 2π, where would I go from here? Am I allowed to factor sin t out?
2. cos u + cos 2u = 0 -- same problem. I know it simplifies to "cos u + cos^2 u = 0" or "cos u + 1 - 2 sin^2 u = 0", but same with the first problem, can I simplify cos u out?

How would I solve these problems? Thanks for your help!--Prowress (talk) 16:35, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

You can factor something, but not simply remove a common factor. So:

2 sin t cos t + sin t = 0 ⇒ sin t (2 cos t + 1) = 0 ⇒ sin t = 0 or 2 cos t + 1 = 0

The first equation of the last pair tells you t = nπ are solutions, n ∈ ℤ. The second equation of the pair gives futher solutions. Simply discarding a factor would hide half the solutions. — Quondum^☏✎ 16:53, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Double-check your first step in the second problem. --COVIZAPIBETEFOKY (talk) 17:13, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

So for #1, I got sin t = 0 and cos t = -1/2 but I cannot think of any configuration for both of them. --Prowress (talk) 23:08, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant by "configuration" that I cannot find any radians of pi that would fit both the answers.--Prowress (talk) 23:10, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

But you don't need a solution to both of them. You have two things which you're multiplying together, and they're supposed to make 0. So it's enough that one of them be 0.--130.195.2.100 (talk) 23:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Meaning that for #1 you get sin t = 0 or cos t = -1/2 rather than sin t = 0 and cos t = -1/2 . Bo Jacoby (talk) 05:59, 21 February 2012 (UTC).

February 21

phi(n) question

On page 224 of Handbook of Number Theory II, by Sandor and Crstici, it says that C. A Nicol proved that there exist infinitely many numbers n such that phi(n) <= phi(n-k) for all 1 <= k <= n-1. (It references problem E2590 in AMM, vol 83, p 656, with the solution in vol 85, p. 654, but I don't have access to those.) But the statement doesn't make sense to me - when k=n-1, you have phi(n) <= phi(1) = 1, and only phi(1) and phi(2)=1. Is there an error? Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 03:46, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't know whether this link is stable but it displays problem E2590 which asks to show that there are infinitely many numbers n such that phi(n) <= phi(k) + phi(n-k) for 1 <= k <= n-1. It sounds like Sandor and Crstici forgot phi(k). PrimeHunter (talk) 04:17, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Resolved

Thanks, that makes sense because the next line says that there are infinitely many n such that phi(n) >= phi(k) + phi(n-k) for that range of k. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 04:41, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Statistics and entailment

On page 173 of Cognitive Strategy Research by McCormick, Miller and Pressley, there is an F-statistic table that evaluates causal inferences, but I've never come across this use of the F-statistic. Part of the table is given here:

Entailment	BETA	F
Importance -> learning	0.13	F(2, 503) = ...
Importance -> attention -> learning	0.12	F(3, 502) = ...

In the experiment (a study of attention-focusing strategies), students had to read a technical passage, then sit a brief test. Those parts of the text that were examined on the test were deemed important by the experimenters (the "importance" part of the table). Students were measured on their ability to focus their attention on these important parts of the text (the "attention" part of the table), as well as their actual performance (the "learning" part). So intuitively, I hope that is clear: the causal chain involving attention (line 2) describes the link between "importance of the text" and "learning of the text", when it is mediated by conscious attention on the part of the reader. The chain without attention (line 1) is blind to this intermediate step.

So I can get the idea but not how the table works. The F-statistic is being used for some kind of test where the numerator steals a degree of freedom from the denominator, whenever an extra link is added to the causal chain. Can anyone explain? IBE (talk) 19:43, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

• F-test is the article you want. Thats got some typical examples of its use.--Salix (talk): 21:22, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

That doesn't mention anything about entailment, nor does it tell me what Beta might represent. I know how to use an F-test for ANOVA and regression, but I've never seen anything about entailment before. Is it meaningful statistically, or is it just based on assuming causation from correlation? IBE (talk) 15:39, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I realised that its not of much help. I realised you probably knew about F-test as soon as I posted my comment. Wondering if its anything to do with Regression analysis. I've looked at a few papers on Causal inference [37] which seem to involve a lot of regression. The beta could come from the linear regression equation Y = βX + ε. But this is a shot in the dark.--Salix (talk): 17:04, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I think it's probably better than a shot in the dark - you are probably correct. I just thought Beta might be specific to the application. IBE (talk) 18:51, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

• Could be some form of mediation analysis, but hard to be sure without looking at the source (which I don't have). As explained in that article, in recent years considerable doubt has been cast on simple ways of testing for mediation. Qwfp (talk) 18:09, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I think this might be it, but I'll go over it more carefully when I have a moment. More info welcome from anyone, but thanks to you both for the help. IBE (talk) 18:51, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

February 22

Radians and calculus

Is there an intuitive/easy way to see why measuring angles in radians leads to nicer formulas in calculus? 74.15.139.132 (talk) 01:30, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

If you plot a curve of sine as a function of degrees with equal scaling on the x & y axes, then it is a long, long, stretched-out graph, with the maximum slope going up the curve of only π/180 ≈ 0.0175, while if you plot it as a function of radians, then it is a more "natural" looking graph, with a maximum slope going up the curve of 1. In fact, the slope of sin(x) at each point is exactly cos(x). Thus the first derivative of the sine is the cosine, or in formula d/dx sin(x) = cos(x). If we were to define a function sin_d(x) which was the sine as a function of degrees, then the derivative would be d/dx sin_d(x) = π/180 * cos_d(x). That is messy enough, but in radians we know that the fourth derivative of the sine function is the sine function itself, where in degrees, the fourth derivative of sin_d(x) is (π/180)^4 * sin_d(x). What a mess!. Radians give these functions the right horizontal scale, somewhat in the same sense that the e, the natural log base, is just the right choice for the exponential function so that it's derivative is itself. -- 203.82.91.152 (talk) 04:25, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I know that, I'm wondering if there's an intuitive way of seeing why this is true for radians, defined as 1/(2*pi) of a circle, w/o explicit computation. 74.15.139.132 (talk) 18:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

OK. Our trig functions are easily represented on a unit circle because that sets the hypotenuse to 1 which make the ratios which define the trig functions trivial. And an angle is not just the central wedge shape that you measure with a protractor, but it can also be thought of as the length of the arc of the unit circle that is cut out by the wedge, and that is the definition of radians. A 1 radian angle cuts out an arc of the unit circle with length 1. Why is this important to calculus? The coordinates of a point on the unit circle, θ up (CCW) from the x-axis, are (x, y) = (cos θ, sin θ), for whatever measure of angle you are using (assuming that your sine and cosine function are intended to take that measure of angle). When you choose radians you get the advantage that for the initial, very small movement up from θ = 0, you find ∆θ ≈ ∆y, so that lim ∆θ -> 0 of ∆y/∆θ = 1. Since y = sin θ, we just showed that d/dθ sin θ = 1 for θ = 0, and in general we find that d/dθ sin θ = cos θ without some arbitrary and annoying scaling factor, such as π/180. So the intuitive feature of radians you are seeking is linked to their property of representing distance around the unit circle. -- ToE 02:36, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

One nice thing is looking at the area element rdrdθ when integrating in polar coordinates. This its quite easy to see working in radians as the length of an arc is the radius times the angle.--Salix (talk): 21:45, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

As alluded to above, if we only used degrees, the derivative of sin at 0 would be π/180. In radians, it's exactly 1 instead, which is nice. For this to happen, we need the limit as θ tends to 0 of (sin θ)/θ to be 1. (This is because if you look at the derivative of sin at 0 through its definition as a limit, this is precisely the limit you obtain.) So what it boils down to is we want to know why sin θ and θ are roughly equal when θ is very small and measured in radians. Now have a look at this illustration. sin θ is the length of the dotted vertical segment. θ is the length of the circular sector to the right of the vertical dotted segment (but only if θ is measured in radians). Now imagine that θ becomes very small, so that the point on the circle slides towards (1,0). You can see, at least intuitively, that these two lengths are going to be very close in relation to one another (that is, their ratio is going to become close to 1). All of this only works if the angle is measured in radians. 96.46.204.126 (talk) 22:11, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

In addition, the series expansion for sin and cos are in radians. In all of these cases, using radians (the natural unit of angles) eliminates constants (which are akin to unit conversions). And because of the series, sin(x) is approximately x when x is small, and x is in radians. And the inverse trig functions naturally give their result in radians. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 03:03, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Matrix Eigenvalues

I need to find the eigenvalues and eigenvectors of the matrix

$\mathbf A = \begin{bmatrix} \mathbf O & \mathbf I & \mathbf O & \mathbf O\\ - \mathbf B & \mathbf O & \mathbf S & \mathbf O\\ \mathbf O & \mathbf O & \mathbf O & \mathbf I\\ {\mathbf {DB}} & \mathbf O & -{\mathbf {D(C-S)}} & \mathbf O\\ \end{bmatrix}$

where O is the zero matrix, I is identity matrix, B is a circulant tridiagonal matrix with elements (-1,2,-1) and C and D are diagonal matrices with constant diagonal terms (in other words, a scalar times the identity matrix.) S is a circulant matrix (or a diagonal matrix, if that helps.) I am hoping that the presence of large number of O's , I's and simple matrices would lead to a closed form solution for the eigenvalues and the eigenvectors. Any help will be sincerely appreciated. deeptrivia (talk) 03:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

you can at least evaluate the determinant more easily: Swap rows and columns around in groups. You can easily make the two I's appear on the top left and lower right by swapping rows 1 and 2, and rows 3 and 4. Then you have $\pm\left|B\right|\times\left|D(C-S)\right|\pm\left|S\right|\left|DB\right|$. The signs are given by the parity of the size of the two I's. HTH, Robinh (talk) 20:38, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

New method for long division

Please excuse my math ignorance, but I have no way of asking this question without seeming like a complete dunce when it comes to math (true): My son is starting long division in grade school. I tried helping him with his homework, but I can't make heads or tails of what is going on here. When I was in school (back in the 80's) we did long division by dividing into the first set of numbers, subtracting out, dropping down the next set of numbers, and continuing the process until completed with a remainder. It still works, but it definitely not the way they are teaching it now. And I am stumped. I know you can't help "do my son's homework for him," so I won't include the actual problem, but is there someone out there who is privy to this "new way" of teaching long division to elementary aged kids that can point me to some helpful resources? The problems are basic long division, no variables or square roots or anything like that yet. Quinn ^{░ RAIN} 05:34, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

PS:It has something to do with doubling the divisor, if that helps. Quinn ^{░ RAIN} 05:39, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with a different way to do division, but the doubling you mention sounds like it might be a square-root algorithm. Could it be this: http://www.homeschoolmath.net/teaching/square-root-algorithm.php (scroll down a bit)?--121.74.109.179 (talk) 05:51, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Could it be related to Long Division Teaching Aid, "Double Division"? -- ToE 05:59, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes it seems that Long Division Teaching Aid, "Double Division" is basically what is going on here. Can anyone "dumbdown" the method for me so I can grasp what they're wanting? We have to show-the-work and I'm an English major, so I "need" to understand the concept before I can wrap my brain around it to try to explain to my son. 06:32, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Or maybe an example with explanation? I don't have to understand how A=B, I just need to know how A-gets-to-B (if that' makes sense) so I have a broad understanding of what I'm trying to do here. After that, I can trial and error the problems, and hopefully come up with a way to assist my son with his homework. Quinn ^{░ RAIN} 06:37, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It's not really all that different from long division. They explicitly fill in the zeros to the right, where long division leave potentially confusing blanks. They also precompute multiples of the divisor, but only the 1x, 2x, 4x, and 8x multiples. Doing this involves the three doublings you mentioned. Doubling is cheap, but the price they pay is that where you would get a 7 in the answer via long division, they get a 4, a 2, and a 1 in three different steps, and have to sum them for a final answer. If this is used commonly enough, and we can find references in educational literature, it would certainly deserve mention in long division, if not its own article. -- ToE 06:41, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I just noticed that the link I gave above has a nice applet on the right which will step you through example problems of your choice, with explanation for each step taken. Why don't you give that a try and ask here if something doesn't make sense? I was about to write up an example along the lines of those in Long division#Method, but that applet will probably do a better job of explaining things. Cheers! -- ToE 06:50, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think they should change methods like this unless the new method is much better than the old one. After all, people need to be able to check each other's work, which we can't do if we all use different systems. I've sometimes experienced this when getting change back, when instead of counting up the change, they count down from the amount tendered until they get to the amount of the bill. I find that very confusing, and insist on recounting it myself. So, this sure doesn't save any time. StuRat (talk) 07:11, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The method sounds related to Ancient Egyptian multiplication or Egyptian multiplication and division. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 17:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Well I've got the hang of it now (the applet, which I didn't notice at first, was the key, so thanks for that), but I have to say in the long run it is not a time saver vs. the "old" version, but oh well. Concur with StuRat above. Thanks all! Quinn ^{░ RAIN} 01:16, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Matrix Eigenvalues

I have solve the following quadratic eigenvalue problem:

$det(s^2 \mathbf{I} + s \mathbf{B} + \mathbf{C}) = 0$

where B and C are circulant matrices. Since the eigenvalues of circulant matrices are known in closed form, I'm hoping there would be a closed form solution in terms of eigenvalues of B and C. deeptrivia (talk) 11:17, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Finding quadratic formula

long ago I found a wikipedia article about how to "get" the quadratic formula from ax² + bx + c = 0?? But I cannot find it now? someone may help? Thanks! 190.158.184.192 (talk) 17:53, 22 February 2012 (UTC) (PS: The process of getting the formula itself.)

• Try Quadratic equation#Derivations of the quadratic formula. Qwfp (talk) 18:12, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Curl

In maxwell's equations the curl of electric and magnetic fields are used, but curl only operates on functions of 3 variables and E and B generally are 4 variables because they depend on time as well. Can someone explain? Money is tight (talk) 18:20, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The curl acts only on the spatial variables. Sławomir Biały (talk) 22:59, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The E and B fields are generally functions of four variables (coordinates x, y, z and t), but the curl only involves partial derivatives with respect to three of these variables. Each partial derivative treats the other three variables as constant. The partial derivative with respect to the fourth variable t generally occurs in the same equations alongside the curl (or div). This 3+1 separation is an artifact of the choice of opertors. In a treatment such as in geometric algebra that puts all four the these coordinates on an equal footing replaces the curl, div and time derivative with one that combines all four partial derivatives into one operator, and in the process simplifies the statement of Maxwell's equations. — Quondum^☏✎ 04:52, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

February 23

Math Problem

5≤ -s/12 -3 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.80.157.180 (talk) 02:17, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Did you have a question? RudolfRed (talk) 02:48, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I added a title. I think we can assume you want us to help solve the inequality for s. It works pretty much like solving an equality, with one big exception: "When you multiply or divide both sides of an inequality by a negative number, you also flip the sign of the inequality". Thus, you will flip ≤ to ≥. (There are other differences in solving inequalities, such as dealing with square roots, but those don't come into play here.) If you show us your work, we would be glad to check it for you. StuRat (talk) 03:09, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Trig function help

Hello, how would I accomplish this trig problem?

cos (arcsin (5/13) - arctan (3/4))

thanks.--Prowress (talk) 03:43, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

• Hint: determine the missing lengths of the triangles involved, then use the identity cos (A − B) = cos Acos B + sin Asin B. --Kinu ^t/_c 04:19, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

February 18

Defraud Innkeeper?

I saw an ex-girlfriend in the local arrest section of the newspaper, and she was apparently arrested at Denny's for "defraud innkeeper". What does that mean? Doesn't that mean she defrauded a hotel in some way? 198.228.232.49 (talk) 01:47, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

According to this [38], "defrauding an inkeeper" also applies to restaurants. That particular law is for Georgia, but other states and countries probably have similar laws. RudolfRed (talk) 02:34, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

The dine and dash seems the most likely offense. (If I were to do that, I'd pick a much nicer restaurant.) :-) StuRat (talk) 02:45, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

How do you know which Denny's is meant? There could be thousands restaurants called like that in the US. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.8.66.12 (talk) 12:11, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Denny's a chain, so yes, there are thousands of restaurants called that (well, our article says "over 1,500" worldwide, so not quite thousands), but they are very similar. --Tango (talk) 13:40, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Secretariat General of Commonwealth

When it comes to selecting Secretariat General of Commonwealth of Nations, is there an election or the Queen appoints the person to the position? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.150.254 (talk) 03:06, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Commonwealth Secretary-General#Election. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:16, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Fetish name

Is there any name for the fetish for bloodless torture? Such a person might enjoy watching someone get tortured on the rack, but doesn't want to see someone get disemboweled with a chainsaw. Is there any film genre specifically relating to this fetish? --140.180.6.154 (talk) 06:18, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Sadism is enjoying inflicting pain (or watching it), but not necessarily death. While this isn't exactly the same as "bloodless", it's probably as close as you will find. StuRat (talk) 16:34, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

However, the works of the marquis himself are not bloodless! 140.180.6.154 -- I could coin a word from Latin or Greek roots, but it wouldn't be a standard accepted term. Why not just say "bloodless torture sadism"? -- AnonMoos (talk) 18:18, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

university of kent

anyone here know anything about this university? I'm currently studying the second year of my course and was hoping to transfer there to take the last year (for a variety of reasons, initially I hoped to transfer last year but left it too late). However, I have heard that some universities don't accept new entrants just for the final year. I emailed them to ask about their policies here, but a week later I still have no reply. Anyone know more about this? or is this rule the same across the country? 148.197.81.179 (talk) 13:35, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

You really do need to speak to the university. Even if they do accept transfers, it's going to depend on the details of the course you are currently taking and the course you want to transfer to (you would need to show that you have met all the prerequisites for the new course). We're not going to be much help there. If you don't receive a reply soon, make sure you emailed the right person - it's probably better to email someone in the department you want to join rather than a central admissions person since it will probably be a departmental policy. The university website should help you find the right person in the department. --Tango (talk) 13:44, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

You should pick up the telephone and call a human if you are at all serious about this. Comet Tuttle (talk) 15:22, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I took a look at their website and found this FAQ. It says you can enter the 2nd year of a course by applying through UCAS, but doesn't mention entering after the 2nd year. --Tango (talk) 15:56, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I know UK universities don't have half terms, but the children of their staff do, and where I live half term was last week. So it's possible that the member of staff who deals with such matters was on holiday last week. If you haven't heard by Monday afternoon by email, I'd telephone as suggested above. --TammyMoet (talk) 18:04, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

From my (admittedly limited and outdated) experience of Universities, it's possible that they don't have an existing policy on this because no-one has asked to do it before now: I can think of three administrational innovations that had to be made at my own University for first cases, two of them involving myself. In case this is so, you might be better off preparing the ground by persuasively making the case to someone in the department you want to join, as Tango suggests, and having them advocate your transfer, rather than presenting it to a general administrator who might find it easier to say "no" to a novel proposal from an outsider. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.63 (talk) 11:33, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd be very surprised if they don't have a policy on this. Working at a university, I know we get queries about third year entry fairly often. Many universities have a policy that they won't accept the transfer of more than one year's worth of credits, but this isn't universal, so it's well worth asking. Warofdreams talk 12:38, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

English maternal DNA

I'm curious about the maternal DNA of English people. Did the Anglos and Saxons bring their own women with them or did they marry with the English women already inhabiting England when they settled there? What exact ethnic group did these indigenous women come from? I do know they were pre-Roman and pre-Celtic. I need this info as I'm currently involved in a debate with a friend regarding this. Thank you.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:01, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I think you'll find it's a much-debated, contentious and unresolved question. Does Genetic history of the British Isles help? Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:08, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Bryan Sykes has studied this. As our article states: "There is a difference between the genetic histories of men and women in Britain and Ireland. The matrilineages show a mixture of original Mesolithic inhabitants and later Neolithic arrivals from Iberia, whereas the patrilineages are much more strongly correlated with Iberia. This suggests (though Sykes does not emphasize this point) replacement of much of the original male population by new arrivals with a more powerful social organization.". In other words, the invading men brought some women with them, but also took the time to knock up native women. StuRat (talk) 16:23, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

It's actually the difference between the genetic history of mitochondrial DNA (transmitted from mother to child) and the genetic history of Y-chromosome DNA (transmitted from father to son). Such differences can sometimes provide interesting details relevant to the history of population migrations, but they don't really provide broad comprehensive information on the "genetic histories of men vs. women"... AnonMoos (talk) 20:04, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

What's the difference ? StuRat (talk) 20:09, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

For any one individual, mitochondrial DNA only provides evidence about his or her mother, mother's mother, mother's mother's mother, etc.; while Y-chromosome DNA only provides information about a man's father, his father's father, his father's father's father, etc. So if a man traces his ancestry back eight-generations, then he can have up to 256 distinct great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents, but mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome DNA can only provide information about two of the 256, or less than 1%. As you go further back, the pure matrilineal line and pure patrilineal line become an ever smaller fraction of the ancestor slots in each generation, but there's more and more likelihood that some of the same individuals show up multiple times as ancestors (due to intermarriage). It can be complicated, but the result is that while the results of mitochondrial and Y-chromosome analysis provide interesting information, this information is fragmentary in some ways... AnonMoos (talk) 20:49, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I see your point, although mutations in the Y-chromosome and mitochondria provide some additional info. StuRat (talk) 20:57, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Even if it's true that there was a major influx of males from Iberia, this is still a pre-Roman Conquest event isn't it? The Angles and Saxons came from northern Europe, not Spain. I found these two articles by Stephen Oppenheimer (Britishy geneticist and "a researcher and popular-science writer on human prehistory"): Myths of British ancestry and Myths of British ancestry revisited. Alansplodge (talk) 23:32, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Also take a look at Human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup, especially Haplogroup R (Y-DNA), which is the majority haplogroup type in the Isles. It also has prominence in Iberia as Alansplodge says. Most of these historic migrations are on the order of 10s of thousands of years, so modern history like the Roman Conquest doesn't seem to be as big of an influence as you might think. But I could be wrong about that. Shadowjams (talk) 06:04, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I take it you mean most of the major migrations to the British Isles, as there were major migrations since then, such as in the last few hundred years to the Americas. StuRat (talk) 06:34, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Right, migrations to. North America largely resembles what you'd expect within ethnic groups. I'm reciting what our article, and a lot of other mainstream sources say about it. I might guess that they ask people about their ethnic ancestry, and base it on that. But even still, the British Isles are predominately white and so it seems reasonable to assume the distribution of haplotypes hasn't changed that much. (haplogroup has nothing to do with race either, as there are some Africans with haplotype R as well... but it does suggest that most of the early migration patterns have remained surprisingly consistent). Shadowjams (talk) 07:32, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The Y chromosome and mitochondrial haplogroup DNA evidence has more to do with prehistoric human migration patterns than with any phenotype expression. Indeed there are people that share haplogroups with wildly different ethnicities (and correspondingly wildly different appearances, genetic disease rates, and other phenotypical expressions). In fact these haplogroup analysis work largely because these DNA sections aren't thought to code for any meaningful differences. So it's just random mutations that are passed on without bias. Shadowjams (talk) 06:09, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

See also Cheddar Man. Alansplodge (talk) 12:37, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Economic impact of leap year

This year, 2012, is a leap year. As many people are paid a fixed amount monthly it would seem that a large number of extra man-hours are going to be worked "for free" this month. Could this have a detectable economic impact (i.e. a marginal increase in economic productivity)? LukeSurl ^{t c} 16:45, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

A similar situation happens in other years - if the year starts on a Friday or Saturday, there will be one few working day (assuming a Monday-Friday working week) than if it starts on any other day (due to there being 1 day more than 52 weeks in the year). I don't think that's going to make much difference to anything, though. Productivity is generally equal to consumption (with a few, usually short-term, exceptions) and consumption isn't going to be changed much by this kind of thing (I guess things like food and utilities will get used for one extra day in a leap year, but for most goods and services there won't be any noticeable change). --Tango (talk) 17:04, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

The "noise" of economic data is likely far larger than the 1/366th difference added to the year by a leap year. I can't think of any economic data that pretends to be as precise as one part in 366, so any changes that occur due to a leap year would be washed out in the data set by random fluctuation. --Jayron32 18:22, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

That doesn't stop people from talking about the economic impact of an extra bank holiday for a royal wedding, or of lots of people not being able to get to work for one day because of snow. It's rather silly, but it fills column inches. --Tango (talk) 18:30, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

The OP asks if it would lead to "a marginal increase in economic productivity"? Obviously not, but those who are incompetent at Mathematics may think they see one. HiLo48 (talk) 20:08, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

A worker who's paid by the hour should benefit from the extra day. A worker who's paid a fixed salary is effectively being paid "by the year", so they don't get anything extra for that extra day. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:06, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm paid by the month; it's the same amount regardless of whether the month has 28, 29, 30, or 31 days. Since February is a day longer this year, I get slightly less money per day this February than I did a year ago, but it's still more than I get per day every other month of the year, so I'm not complaining. Pais (talk) 22:16, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Er, just to clarify, workers don't actually benefit from the extra day in the sense that they still have the same lifetime income, it just gets divided into different sections. (Okay, so there's an effect that there's another 24 hours in their working life, and 24 hours less in their retired life, so their income would be slightly different. But you catch my drift.) - Jarry1250 ^{[Deliberation needed]} 22:24, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Bugs, that is a false analysis. This "extra day" furphy needs to be put to rest straight away. The sequence of the days of the week will not be disturbed by this so-called "extra day". There is no "extra day". The 24-hour period that we're going to call "29 February 2012" was always going to be there, regardless of what name we choose to call it. Compared to a standard year, there's an extra date, that's all.

For those whose pay is expressed as an annual salary, what they earn per working day will be a minute fraction smaller this year compared with a standard year, but that applies to every working day this year, not just to 29 February. The number of working days per year varies every year anyway.

And for those who are paid on a monthly basis, what they earn per working day this February might be slightly smaller this month compared to other Februaries - but again, that applies to every working day this month, not just to 29 February (if it's a working day). -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 22:51, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

52 weeks and 1 day vs. 52 weeks and 2 days. That's an extra day. And even someone who's paid monthly is still being paid "by the year" if they're on salary. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:28, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Don't confuse how a person's emolument is formally expressed in their employment contract (e.g. $25 per hour cf. $50,000 per annum), with how often they receive payment (e.g. weekly cf. fortnightly cf. monthly). -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 01:34, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

A salaried employee who's "exempt" from overtime gets a fixed amount per year, unless he happens to get a raise at some point. An hourly employee gets paid for how many hours he works during the year, possibly including some overtime, etc. The number of man-hours in a year is typically given as 2080 (40 X 52) for convenience, but it's really 2088 in a normal year and 2096 in a leap year. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:42, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The man should join a union, and demand some paid holidays... AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The paid holidays are included in the 2080/2088/2096 hours. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:04, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

February 19

Passbook and money market accounts

According to [39], banks can change the interest rate on passbook savings accounts in the United States any time they want, within a 5% reason. Is the same true for money market accounts? Albacore (talk) 03:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

See the terms and conditions of a particular bank's account. (Yes, that long-winded small print nobody actually reads). Truth in Savings Act gives some guidance regarding disclosure rules. I'd say banks can pay pretty much whatever rate they like, as long as they're honest about what they pay. If you don't like the rate you're being paid, I'd say you should simply switch banks. Bankrate is a useful comparison site, for example. 58.111.178.170 (talk) 20:38, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Where does the US House of Representatives get the funding for BLAG?

The House of Representatives, through the Bipartisan Legal Advisory Group, hires outside counsel to represent them in legal battles. Where does the funding come from? Donations from individual representatives? 50/50 from each party's battle chest? Or (and I seriously hope this is not the case) siphoning off their general expense account? 99.245.35.136 (talk) 04:35, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The BLAG works primarily with the U.S. House Office of General Counsel, see OGC Home Page. According to the rules of the House [40] Rule 2, section 8, the Speaker sets the pay of the employees of the OGC. Being U.S. Government employees, OGC is likely paid out of the same bucket of cash that the rest of the Government is paid from. The existance of the OGC is authorized here in the U.S. Code, Title 2, Section 130f. I have no idea how this applies if the BLAG decides to go outside of the OGC and hire outside counsel; where that cash comes from. Primarily, it seems, the BLAG deals with issues related to legal interests of the House, rather than legal interests of its members, which is a bit of a distinction. It seems that the hiring of outside counsel is very rare, most of what I am seeing indicates the normal course of events is to use the OGC. --Jayron32 04:50, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I was just reading our article on DOMA and it said that the house is spending $1.5 million to hire an outside counsel to defend DOMA. Did the House not use the OGC for these cases because they know it's unrelated to the functions of the House? Or is it some other reason? In any case it sounded like it was not the Speaker who was setting the price tag but the contracted law firm itself. 99.245.35.136 (talk) 05:09, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and to correct myself, this outside counsel is technically representing BLAG instead of the House itself. In contrast, the OGC, while controlled by the BLAG, represents the House.99.245.35.136 (talk) 05:14, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) (comments prior to EC) Its a bit messy, and not that simple, because the House claims that it is about the functions of the House, specifically over the conflict between executive privilege and legislative privilege, AFAIK, the House's main claim is that President Obama is not authorized to ignore laws passed by Congress, and the outside counsel's main purpose is argue that. This is neither here-nor-there over whether or not the DOMA is a just piece of legislation, just on the issue of what legal rights and obligations the executive branch has with regards to laws that are already on the books, but which it disagrees with philosophically. I'm not exactly sure what the justification is for using outside counsel in stead of the OGC; nor can I find any information on who is footing the bill in this case. (response to second set of comments) Is it representing the BLAG as a body (which is just the House Leadership), or is it representing the persons who make up the BLAG? --Jayron32 05:17, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Our article on BLAG says "...attorneys representing the BLAG filed a brief...", but the source link is dead unfortunately. This HuffingtonPost article [41] also use a similar language: "...attorneys representing the House's Bipartisan Legal Advisory Group...". I couldn't find the actual brief so far but I'll keep on trying. If they are not representing the House then I really don't think the House (or more accurately the taxpayers) ought to foot the bill. 99.245.35.136 (talk) 05:28, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Discussion of "think ought to" aren't really what the reference desk is about. Again, I have looked and can't find anything one way or another about who is footing the bill. If you are concerned about ought to, then perhaps you should contact your congressperson directly, and ask their office about the matter. Your complaint is likely to go farther there than here. --Jayron32 05:33, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

My apologies for the sidetracking. I just thought retaining outside counsel was a common thing for the House and thus the answer would be common knowledge. In any case I found the brief [big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/DOMAfiling.pdf] and it's indeed the BLAG being represented, not the House.99.245.35.136 (talk) 05:42, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

One possibility would be to contact the Huffington Post and ask them; it looks like they have journalists working on the issue, and they may have additional information, or your question may probe them to investigate the issue themselves, if they don't already know. --Jayron32 05:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Call whatever office in the House of Representatives deals with the public and ask them. If you know what law firm, send them a civil email (i.e., don't start with "What right do you have to ...".)--Wehwalt (talk) 15:01, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I wonder if the House of Representatives is familiar with the UK slang usage of the word blag - to talk one's way out of something, or to obtain by deception/dishonest persuasion. As in "I got caught, but I blagged my way out of it", or "I blagged a free drink by telling them I'm a friend of the owner". Seems rather apposite. Equisetum (talk | contributions) 19:18, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

RP pronunciation of stairs

The OED has an /s/ at the end of backstairs. Is this correct, is it a rhyme for scarce in RP? If so, is stairs also a rhyme, or does it have /z/ as in GA? — kwami (talk) 13:43, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

My accent is broadly RP, and I don't voice the final consonant in any of those words. I do voice it in 'scares', though (which would be a homophone of 'scarce' if not for the different voicing). This question would probably get a better response on the Language, by the way. --Tango (talk) 13:49, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Your word is good enough, considering the OED already says so! — kwami (talk) 14:21, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

There is an issue with RP being quite varied. I would say that I speak RP, but I don't speak anything like the Queen, who also definitely speaks RP (the difference being that she learnt to speak RP in elocution lessons in 20's and 30's, while I learnt to speak it organically in the 80's and 90's). I can't say for sure how the Queen pronounces 'stairs'. The same is true of General American, of course. --Tango (talk) 14:26, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

It rhymes with pears fairs and tears (as in tears paper). Kittybrewster ☎ 14:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Tango: do you mean “scares” as a noun or a verb? – b_jonas 16:09, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I pronounce them the same. --Tango (talk) 00:47, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

how do I address a Church Elder?

Elder Robert Smith of New Hope Apostolic Church Missouri (Pentecostal Assemblies of the world) ? Kittybrewster ☎ 14:32, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Unless you have been introduced to him with a specific form of address, I would just call him "Mr. Smith". There are some forms of address that are sufficiently well known that it could be considered an insult not to use them, but how on Earth are you supposed to know how the New Hope Apostolic Church chooses to address its elders? (Unless you are a member of that church, in which case you will have better people to ask than us.) --Tango (talk) 14:55, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

On the rare occasions I have met well-known people, and conversed with them, I generally toss in a "sir" now and then and leave it at that.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:58, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

How frustrating. Is there a free lookup for tel nos in missouri? Gloristeen Arbuthnot please. Kittybrewster ☎ 17:06, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

It probably differs depending on whether or not you are a member of the same denomination as him. If you are not, you can't go wrong with "Mr. Smith.", in the U.S. it is universally acceptable in situations where the correct form of address has not already been established. If he prefers a different form, he won't be offended, but will offer a polite alternative. --Jayron32 01:09, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. When I received your advices I telephoned the number I had for him (I am not a theist) and found it no longer works. Nor can I get a number for his church. So I am stuck. Kittybrewster ☎ 08:29, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I would say that any lay elder of a church without a working phone would have to be awfully pretentious to expect to be called anything but "Mister" if male.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:53, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

He may be retired from the New Hope Apostolic Church Missouri (Pentecostal Assemblies of the world). But I would love to hear from anyone who knows how to get a St Louis tel no. Kittybrewster ☎ 09:00, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

See 4-1-1 the US directory enquiries number. There is a different version 1-areacode-555 1212 which may be of more use if calling from outside the US, but you would need to know the area code for St. Louis, Missouri (314 or 636 according to the article). Astronaut (talk) 13:02, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I got it from zabasearch.com. it is a 314 number. but the telecom machine thinks I am dialling 8 zeros which unsurprisingly is an invalid number. Kittybrewster ☎ 14:20, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

A full list of countries with death penalty for apostasy

I'm looking for a full list of countries with death penalty for apostasy. I've already read Apostasy#Countries, but I'm not sure if it's the full list. Thanks, Oh, well (talk) 14:39, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

One complication is going to be that many nations which lack an official death penalty for apostasy will have a tribal justice system that does. These tribes may keep it secret when they execute someone for it. StuRat (talk) 18:48, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, so what about a list of states in which execution for apostasy is statutory? Thanks, Oh, well (talk) 14:11, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Just my opinion here, but I think that the Iraqi and Afghanistan civilian death toll would be considerably lower if these were Christian countries. So, in my personal ethos I would count each of those deaths (only the difference in civilian death toll, mind you) as an execution for apostasy. 84.2.147.177 (talk) 15:01, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

That depends on the time period. Due to the relative weakness of the Church today, it is unable to execute people for apostasy, but, back when it was at it's peak power, it could, and did. See Spanish Inquisition. StuRat (talk) 21:59, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

is it usual or possible to get a ba in music from a conservatory

or does a ba only come from universities?

In the UK only a university can award a bachelor's degree. However, some conservatoires in the UK are departments of a University so can award degrees, usually through that university. I'm thinking of, for example, Birmingham City University which took over Birmingham School of Music (Conservatoire) in the 1980s. --TammyMoet (talk) 15:52, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The Royal Conservatoire of Scotland awards its own bachelor's degrees (from 1993; before then the degrees were awarded by the University of Glasgow, but it was never a department of the university). Graduate degrees are issued by the University of St Andrews (I don't know why not Glasgow or Strathclyde - I suspect politics). -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 16:15, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for this respponse. I'm also interested in other countries! (esp. european ones). I know this is hrder to track down... --80.99.254.208 (talk) 20:38, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Entrance Hall

Another dumb blonde question: How is "entrance hall" related to Colleges?--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 15:35, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Do you have some context for us ? Perhaps it means a hall (large room) where entrance exams are given ? StuRat (talk) 18:44, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

An obvious answer perhaps but many building have what is termed an entrance hall; I assume that most colleges will also have one. Gurumaister (talk) 19:06, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I heard it in conversation, however don't remember the exact words. A hall (large room) where entrance exams are given sounds like what I remember in the conversation. From what you gentlemen are saying, it also then fits foyer.--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 22:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The only circumstances in which I can possibly imagine interpreting "entrance hall" as something to do with an entrance exam would be if I had already had it explained that in the particular institution under discussion had such a naming convention (but I have never heard of such an institution). I would say that you safe in assuming that an entrance hall is a hall (I think Americans would say "lobby") by which one might enter a building. --ColinFine (talk) 00:25, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

And if I was asked what an "entrance hall" was, in general, that's what I would say. However, I was trying to find an answer that specifically related to colleges. StuRat (talk) 00:29, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, since commencement speeches are given after students have finished their studies, maybe an entrance hall is the place from which they exit the college and go out into the world. I only mean that half-jokingly. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 08:27, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Sinn Féin's nationalism

Is Sinn Féin's nationalism civic, ethnic or somewhere in between? --Broadside Perceptor (talk) 18:26, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I would think it would be primarily religion based (Catholic), and also somewhat ethnic (but this is complicated by some of the Protestants being English and some Irish). StuRat (talk) 18:40, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Traditionally, the Social Democratic and Labour Party were more civic nationalist and Sinn Féin were very heavily religious/ethnic nationalist. With the weakening of the SDLP as a major force in Northern Irish politics however, Sinn Féin has been picking up more moderate and liberal nationalists. Smurrayinchester 19:52, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd suggest the ideological division between the SDLP and Sinn Féin was primarily about the correct approach to achieving a united Ireland, respectively by peaceful means or by "armed struggle". (Indeed, the link to the article on Civic (or Liberal) Nationalism quoted by the OP specifically comments that Sinn Féin are liberal nationalists). A brief view of Sinn Féin's policies on Equality displays none of the Blut und Boden style thinking typical of ethnic nationalism. The only Sinn Féin policy which has an element of ethnic nationalism is support for the Irish language, but this is not to the denigration of English [42]. Moreover comments that Sinn Féin are "religion-based" are very wide of the mark. For historical reasons, Irish Catholics have mainly been nationalists and (in the last century or so at least) nationalists have mainly been Catholics, but Sinn Féin's policies are not especially in keeping with the teachings of the Catholic Church on social issues; for example they support same-sex marriage [43]. With regard to StuRat's comments, none of the Protestants in Ireland (North or South) are "English" (with the obvious exception of people born in England who have gone to live there). Some are descended from English settlers who settled there several hundred years ago, and at least as many are descended from Scots settlers. However, none are English or Scots now, although those Protestants who are Unionists maintain that they are British (which is no more an ethnicity than American is). Others who are more versed in the subtleties of Irish politics may wish to add more, but I felt a corrective was needed to responses thus far. Valiantis (talk) 05:00, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

honorary doctorate

Notable author Jane Schmoe receives an honorary doctorate from XYZ University (I'm not sure of the occasion for the doctorate but I think commencement speakers traditionally receive them, so that's one possibility).

To what extent is it expected and/or acceptable to refer to her as "Dr. Schmoe" in her later doings, if she doesn't have any other doctoral degrees besides the honorary one?

Thanks.

67.117.145.9 (talk) 19:58, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

It is not generally expected at all. Some honorary awardees who don't have their own earned degrees insist on being called "Doctor", but most don't. I'd go for the default case unless the person indicates otherwise. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:57, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

From Debrett's: "In practice, when a well-known figure outside the academic world receives an honorary doctorate, the recipient does not generally adopt the title of 'Doctor', especially when he or she already has other styles or titles, for example a peer, an officer in the Armed Forces, a judge, etc. This, however, is a matter of the recipient's choice." (http://www.debretts.com/forms-of-address/professions/academics/doctor.aspx) - Cucumber Mike (talk) 21:12, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, the person I have in mind is in the academic world. Does that change things? I don't think she refers to herself as Dr. Schmoe though. At least her personal website doesn't mention it as far as I notice. (And that Debretts page says surgeons aren't supposed to be called Dr. That's the first I ever heard of that. 67.117.145.9 (talk) 22:14, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

That practice varies from country to country. Some surgeons insist on "Mr", as if being tarred with a common-or-garden "Dr" is somehow beneath them. Reverse snobbery of the worst kind, imo. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 22:33, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

It's rare, but not unknown; in general, it's only done if the person uses it themselves, cf/ Ian Paisley, in which case it's a matter of personal preference as to whether or not you do. If they don't use it themselves and you still refer to them as Dr. Schmoe in the knowledge that they only have an honorary degree, it's going to seem implicitly sarcastic or mocking - which, of course, may be intended... Shimgray | talk | 22:19, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I still see see Paisley being referred to as "Dr Ian Paisley" in the press, even though he's been Lord Bannside for nigh on 2 years now. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 22:33, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• Most academics, for whom a Masters, Doctorate (PhD) or Habilitation is a "no-ticket-no-start" work qualification, as well as an example of research output, are aware of what a DLitt (Hon.) means, and how it differs from a DLitt. People usually end up judging each other based on quality and quantity of research output. Fifelfoo (talk) 22:45, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, this person has an MA (and an honorary doctorate) and is a professor of journalism, and a Wikipedia article mentions her as Dr. So-and-so. I'm wondering whether to ask for it to be changed. Thanks for any advice. 67.117.145.9 (talk) 22:48, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Honorary_degree#Practical_use has the answer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ib30 (talk • contribs) 22:56, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

It might help if you told us which Wikipedia page you're referring to. You could also raise this question on the talk page for that article. RudolfRed (talk) 23:04, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The page is John Forbes Nash, Jr. The external links section mentions a video by his biographer "Dr. Sylvia Nasar". Prof. Nasar's academic background is in her faculty profile here and the only doctoral degree mentioned is an honorary one from De Paul University. I thought about putting an edit request on the article's talkpage, but decided to ask here first what the usual way to deal with this was. Thanks. 67.117.145.9 (talk) 23:42, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

What about Dr. J.? --Jayron32 23:46, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

In this case, it would be correct to refer to her as Sylvia Nasar (or as Professor Nasar). She doesn't use the doctorate herself; I'm guessing this is someone trying to be correct and going a little too far... Shimgray | talk | 13:40, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Vijay Mallya has an honorary doctorate and uses Dr before his name. --SupernovaExplosion ^Talk 07:10, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Irrelevant point of information. Dr (David) Carey had an honorary ecclesiastical doctorate and used it. Kittybrewster ☎ 08:25, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

When you say Dr. Carey, do you mean the Archbishop? He had a variety of honorary degrees, but he also had a "real" PhD. (Our article claims it was from Durham, but Who's Who gives London.) Shimgray | talk | 13:40, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Kitty did specify Dr David Carey, not Archbishop George Carey. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 19:23, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I've known a few different D.D. holders in the USA who were typically addressed as "Dr. ___", although they didn't refer to themselves that way. Nyttend (talk) 19:49, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Mormons abroad and learning native languages

Since Mormons never mission in their own country (apparently), does that mean that there are Mormons in some country who actually sit down and learn Swedish just to go to Sweden and knock doors and speak with people in their native language? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 22:50, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I've never heard that Mormons don't mission in their own country. I got the impression that most, if not all, are American, but why wouldn't they mission within America? Ib30 (talk) 23:04, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

LDS church members do have missions in the US. Some go door to door here, as elsewhere, and some serve their missions at various museums and historical sites throughout the US. Kafka Liz (talk) 23:11, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

We do have an article on the subject if it helps: Mormon missionary. -- œ^™ 23:34, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I never heard the word "mission" used as a verb before. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 23:50, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

And what about it in the gerund form missioning? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ib30 (talk • contribs) 23:56, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

This is Swenglish. The Swedish word for 'evangelise' is 'missionera', literally 'to mission'. One of those false friends. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 12:43, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

It was discovered recently that they don't operate in Ireland. They're working on correcting this glaring O'Mission. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:55, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Very funny. I have a friend who is from a Mormon family (he is not observant, himself), from Utah, and his brother is missioning in Peru.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:05, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The ones in France speak French, to varying degrees of fluency, but they always have a native speaker with them. (Actually, I am more amazed that there are native French-speaking Mormons than I am that American Mormons would learn French.) Adam Bishop (talk) 09:36, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Some come here to Australia and cope with our version of English. Given the trouble I had ordering a Coke in the US, that's no mean feat. HiLo48 (talk) 09:58, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I remember the day I had a knock on my door. There were two young men in white shirts and name tags. The first name tag said "Elder Smith". I asked if his friend's name was Goldsbrough Mort, but he just looked blankly at me. True story. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 10:57, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm glad you linked Goldsbrough Mort. I understood the story without the link but otherwise I doubt if anyone but Australians aged over 50 with rural connections would have a clue what you're talking about! HiLo48 (talk) 11:06, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The story was mainly for your benefit, HiLo. The link was for others.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 11:52, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Mormons certainly do proselytize in the United States. But they may concentrate on cultural environments that are particularly alien to Mormonism. I saw them particularly often when I lived in San Francisco, which they might consider especially in need of salvation. This page suggests that Mormons really do learn Swedish to proselytize in Sweden. Marco polo (talk) 14:38, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Agreed that they proselytize in US, but concentrate in certain areas. College towns, for instance, have a much higher incidence in my experience. As to the confusion on where they will go on mission: I believe there is a strong tradition at least that the mission takes place somewhere else, i.e. not in one's hometown. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:00, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

That sounds right; I've seen missionaries several times in Bloomington, Indiana, and one of the very few times I've seen them otherwise (and the only time I've talked with them outside of Bloomington) was in West Lafayette, Indiana. Nyttend (talk) 17:52, 20 February 2012 (UTC) Please don't complain about my willingness to visit Purdue while an IU student :-)

Here's a little bit about how LDS missions work. Each missionary applies to, serve a mission. When you apply you'll indicate things like health problems, languages spoken, time spent in foreign countries, etc. All the applications are then sent to a central office which then responds back with a mission call. The mission call specifies what mission you'll go to and what language you'll speak. So you may be called to go to, for example, San Fransisco, Laotian speaking or to Laos, Laotian speaking or to Sweden, Swedish speaking. You can be called to anywhere in the world, either in your home country or elsewhere, but not to where you currently live. After you accept your mission call (which nearly, but not all, people do) you then report to a Missionary Training Center on a specified date. If you will be speaking your native language, you spend a couple of weeks there before you head out to your assigned mission. If you're learning another language, you'll spend about two months learning the language at the Training Center before you're sent out. The new missionary is then assigned to another missionary and a city or area. Sometimes one or both of them will be native speakers, but often that's not the case. So both of those white shirted missionaries may have never even heard of your language a year ago... Tobyc75 (talk) 02:26, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The American LDS missionaries I met in Taiwan some 30+ years ago were well-known among the foreign student population for being excellent linguists. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:31, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

February 20

How much capabilites does Israel need to attack Iran?

Is the army of Israel ready for that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by XPPaul (talk • contribs) 16:30, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The Israel Defense Forces are quite large and, while it's never admitted it, Israel is generally believed to have nuclear weapons (although if it tried to use them against Iran as anything but a retaliation for a nuclear strike by Iran, it would get in rather a lot of trouble with the rest of the world). So, it could give Iran a good fight. What would actually happen depends a lot on how the rest of the world views the conflict - there is a good chance that other countries would get involved (particularly the US), which would make a very big difference. There, we're into the realms of trying to predict the future course of international relations in the Middle East, and I doubt even a crystal ball would help us there! --Tango (talk) 17:56, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Let's see, first off, it probably wouldn't involve the army at all, but rather the Israeli Air Force. Here are some things they would likely need to attack Iran successfully:

1) The right to overfly some Arab nations. Different flight paths are possible, which would travel over different nations. While many of those nations don't want to see Iran get nuclear weapons, and would love to see Israel disrupt their program, they can't politically allow such overflights. So, more likely, Israel would fly over without public support from those nations. They might either get private guarantees of safe conduct or might just take their chances and bet that any half-hearted response from those nations will be ineffective.

2) Mid-air refueling capability. It's a long way to Iran and back to Israel, so they would need to refuel. Again, landing in an Arab nation to refuel is probably not politically possible. Of course, both the need for overflight and refueling would be eliminated by the use of US aircraft carriers, but that's also politically impossible in the current climate, and any situation where it would be possible, such as if Iran engages in full-scale attacks on ships in Persian Gulf, would result in US planes flown from US aircraft carriers.

3) Bunker-buster bombs, made to penetrate to underground labs.

4) Commando teams would be even more effective, but delivering them and extracting them without use of a land base adjacent to Iran is likely impossible.

5) Unmanned aircraft or long-range missiles might eliminate many of the problems, as they could be used one-way to attack, which removes the requirement to refuel, and having their pilots shot down, captured and put on trial would no longer be a concern. StuRat (talk) 18:30, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

There is a long article on this very topic in this morning's New York Times. I will just point out that what they are "ready for" depends on what one thinks their goals are. --Mr.98 (talk) 18:34, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Another possibility is that Israel could use something like their Delilah UAV and cruise missile system to deliver bombs on target with minimal risk. Those 30 kg warheads wouldn't do much damage, but could evoke a response from Iran that brings in the US. As such, that might be the way for Israel to ultimately take out Iranian nuclear capability with minimal risk to themselves. And, if Iran prudently refused to escalate, Israel could still try a more conventional air strike. StuRat (talk) 18:57, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

XPPaul -- Israel can do a 5- or 10-plane raid against one narrowly-specific non-hardened target extending over a relatively small area (such as Osirak or Deir ez-Zor) with relatively little problem -- and in fact the Israelis spend a lot of time and effort planning and training to keep up their capability to commit such raids. However, the problem is that an attack on Iran would have to target fairly widely dispersed (and in many cases partially hardened) infrastructure in order to have a good chance of delaying Iran's ability to assemble nuclear weapons by at least five years. (Any attack which set Iran back by less than five years probably wouldn't be worth it for Israel.) This means that it would have to go well beyond a stealth squadron raid, and be more of a full-scale attack, committing a significant fraction of Israel's air forces, leading to some of the logistical/political complications mentioned by others above. AnonMoos (talk) 21:37, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

It is a fantasy. Israel lacks the airstrike assets to eliminate Iran's nuclear program, since the program is likely widely dispersed, hidden in the basements of hospitals, schools and orphanages, and in hardened sites under mountains. "Bunker busters" were notably unsuccessful in getting rid of Saddam when the US used them in Iraq. A raid by a few planes with a few conventional bombs? Be real. Edison (talk) 02:35, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

A nuclear weapons program doesn't fit in a spider-hole. According to the New York Times article linked to previously by Mr. 98, Iran has 4 main facilities, and their locations are known: "Iran’s four major nuclear sites — the uranium enrichment facilities at Natanz and Fordo, the heavy-water reactor at Arak and the yellowcake-conversion plant at Isfahan". There's no evidence they are using civilian shields. The smaller Israeli bunker busters might not be up to the task, but the huge US bombs are. StuRat (talk) 03:45, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Here is an article that discusses the NYT piece. According to German security expert Hans Rühle, Israel's most powerful bunker buster bomb GBU-28 has the capability to destroy the roof of the hardened nuclear facilities. If the first GBU-28 strike does not eliminate the entire facility, it will be completed by a second GBU-28. --SupernovaExplosion ^Talk 04:23, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

This may be old, but interesting. --SupernovaExplosion ^Talk 14:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Sturat:

Obviously, in war, there is no "zbang and we're finished", as Israelis used to say. An enemy can always rebuild what has been destroyed over the long term, if given the opportunity. (Another way one Israeli commander put it is "there can be no Knockout, only a victory on points"). The question, as others have said, is about causing a significant setback to the Iranian nuclear program.

1) As to overflying rights, I doubt the countries in the way (Jordan, Syria, and Iraq) have a practical anti-air capacity of the sort which Israel cannot overcome with some clever routing and stealth technology. I'd assume a very limited use for any ground-to-air systems in denying airspace for overflights. You simply fly round them, if you can figure out where they are. And as to engaging air-to-air... the Syrian air force, for one, probably wouldn't even bother trying. Nor would the Iraqi air force, to the degree which it even exists. Jordan may be a more difficult problem, as Israel wouldn't want to damage its' relationship with them if it can help it. Plausible deniability may be enough for the Jordanians to turn a blind eye, though.

2) Israel already has mid-air refueling capability. I doubt Israel has planes designed to land on Aircraft Carriers. Besides, if they use U.S. aircraft carriers, the U.S. might as well do the attacking themselves, as you imply.

3) Does Israel have "Tactical" Nuclear weapons, of the sort which would be useful for localized Bunker-busting, rather than city-razing? Any expert guesses on this question?

4) Israel has likely used commandos, and we may likely yet see more such operations. Extraction is always risky, and your cover can be blown. That's just the nature of such operations. But Israel got pretty much its' entire team out of Dubai intact after killing Mahmoud al-Mabhouh. Such operations make excellent Psychological warfare, as they force Iran to ramp up internal security and counter-infiltration resources. Militarily, though, they likely do rather limited damage. So commandos are presumably an option being used. The target set they can hit is quite limited, though. Each strike is very resource intensive, so they are pretty much drip-drip "spot" operations, not wide-scale ones.

The target set depends on intelligence gathering and overcoming hardened targets. Israel seems to have a surprisingly well-developed human-intelligence network in Iran, as evidenced by the successful killings of Nuclear Scientists. But big challenges likely remain in this area. 58.111.178.170 (talk) 15:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

2) Yes, they have refueling capability, but it's rather limited, and may not be sufficient for this task, as the articles linked to previously explain. StuRat (talk) 19:26, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Question 3 is impossible to answer because Israel will never publicly disclose facts about its nuclear arsenal, if it has any. --SupernovaExplosion ^Talk 15:07, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

It's not impossible to make reasonable speculations based on what is known about the Israeli program (which includes, you might remember, rather specific photographs of Israel nuclear cores that Mordechai Vanunu leaked out). Anyway, "tactical" describes less the technical aspects than it does the usage of them. Both this bomb and this bomb are about the same explosive yield; the first is "strategic" because it couldn't be aimed well and was dropped in the middle of a city, the second is "tactical" because you can aim it a little better and ideally you'd just be shooting it at soldiers. If the question is, "does Israel have the ability to manufacture nukes that can penetrate deeply into the ground before detonation?," the answer is probably "no" — given that they had to buy conventional bunker-busters from the United States, they probably can't natively manufacture that technology on their own. Applying bunker-busting technology to nukes is probably not that easy without doing more nuclear testing than Israel has likely done. Anyway, I think they'd be pretty dumb to use nuclear weapons of any sort. Israel may be many things, but stupid is not one of them. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:32, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I would assume that the less collateral damage you cause, and the less civilians you kill, the less political backlash you're likely to suffer on the international scene? Tactical nukes, even if Israel has them, would be a last resort - but so would an attack on Iran in the first place. If you can avoid razing cities and killing thousands, you can reduce the shock and outcry somewhat, I'd assume. 58.111.178.170 (talk) 16:55, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

It's not just about collateral damage. If Israel used any nuclear weapon in Iran, no matter how small, there would be a huge backlash, even if it didn't hit anything. StuRat (talk) 19:21, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree. It would highly alienate the relationship between Israel and the US, Asia, and Europe. It's not the best relationship as it is. Forget about peace in the Middle East, ever. I don't see them doing it. --Mr.98 (talk) 20:42, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Why Israel?

couldn't the jews have chosen another place to create a jewish state? Something like a part of Germany? — Preceding unsigned comment added by XPPaul (talk • contribs) 16:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Vaguely speaking, Israel is the birthplace of Judaism. Most of the significant events described in the Jewish scriptures happened in the region which now makes up the nation of Israel. See Origins of Judaism. Staecker (talk) 17:19, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

they/we have a bunch of very holy stuff (jewish religious law/its interpretation says jews were 'given' this land) you can't move easily or would lose its holy significance. otherwise i have heard some very good ideas that would be win/win/win/win/win/WIN all around, with israel the biggest winner of all. but you cant rewrite this religious stuff (well you can't, its just outside my personal level of persuation as (not) a religious scholar). 84.2.147.177 (talk) 17:21, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

do note that it should be possible (to reinterpret in the win/win/win/win/win/WIN way): just read the torah and compare it with what is followed literally if you want to know how much leeway is possible. 84.2.147.177 (talk) 17:21, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

See British Uganda Programme, Jewish Autonomous Oblast, and other things mentioned in Proposals for a Jewish state. Nyttend (talk) 17:39, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Also see Slattery Report, and the alternate historical fiction, The Yiddish Policemen's Union. --Mr.98 (talk) 18:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

84.2.147.177 -- See Kamal Salibi for someone who "rewrote this religious stuff" (but it didn't resolve anything). -- AnonMoos (talk) 21:16, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

And we should also ask "Why Palestine ?". That is, Palestine being such a tiny portion of the Muslim world, the Palestinians could easily be absorbed into neighboring nations, if those nations would allow it. Instead, they prefer to keep the Palestinians on their soil confined to refugee camps permanently. The only thing they seem willing to give the Palestinians is weapons. StuRat (talk) 18:39, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The alternative to Palestine for Palestinians who want to remain there is ethnic cleansing, which is considered a crime against humanity. Marco polo (talk) 18:48, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Marco Polo -- there have been a lot of population exchanges during the 20th century (between Turkey and Greece, between Pakistan and India, etc. etc.). Some Israelis consider the decade roughly 1947-1958 to be a de facto population exchange, since slightly more than a million Arabs left territories which became Israel, while slightly less than a million Jews left Arab countries and arrived in Israel... AnonMoos (talk) 21:13, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

That's a rather vague term, meaning everything from genocide down to forced relocation and "no right of return", in this case. And, of course, forced relocation (at the very least) is exactly what the Palestinian goal is for Israeli Jews. Also consider that Jerusalem was Jewish first, and is the holiest city for Jews, while, at best, it's third for Muslims, after Mecca and Medina (perhaps lower for Shia Muslims, who also have holy cities for their own sect, such as Najaf). StuRat (talk) 19:07, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Can we please end the soapboxing right here? -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 19:20, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

To respond directly to the original question, Zionists chose Palestine as a place to encourage Jewish settlement because, as others have said, Jewish sacred texts said that their god had granted much of that region to Jews. I would point out, though, that archaeology and texts from Egypt and Mesopotamia (as well as the Hebrew Bible itself) demonstrate that Canaan had a long history of occupation by a variety of cultural and religious groups before any group identifiably Israelite (i.e., culturally and perhaps genetically ancestral to Jews) appeared in the region. Even Jerusalem existed as a city long before Israelites or Jews lived there. So it isn't right that Jews were in the region first. Jews were one of a series of cultural groups that lived in the region. They were probably the predominant group in the region from about 1000 BCE until about 300 CE, when Greek and/or Aramaic-speaking Christians (many probably descended from Jews and their pre-Jewish ancestors) began to predominate in the region, though a small group of (Greek and/or Aramaic-speaking) Jews remained in the region. From about 900 CE, until about 1950, several decades after the emergence of Zionism, the region was overwhelmingly Arabic speaking, with a Muslim majority (very likely largely likewise descended from Jews), a large Christian minority and (until the late 1800s) a much smaller, also Arabic-speaking Jewish minority. So it is not as simple as "Jews were there first". Jews and their descendants (among whom are many Palestinians) were not first, but have been there since the emergence of Judaism some way into the region's history. The relatively recent development of a Hebrew-speaking Jewish majority is a consequence of Zionism. Marco polo (talk) 20:11, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

By "first" I meant "before Muslims", as the presence of ethnic groups there prior to that, which no longer exist, is irrelevant. StuRat (talk) 20:27, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

But as Marco has said, before the Muslims were there the whole area was Christian. Adam Bishop (talk) 20:41, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

To be exact, in 600 AD the majority of the population would have been somewhat-Hellenized Aramaic-speaking Monophysite "Syrians"... AnonMoos (talk) 21:22, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Right, but how is that relevant ? StuRat (talk) 21:54, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, if you think that Israel should belong to the people who had it "before the Muslims", then that's the Greek/Syrian Christians. Oh but they don't count, so the people before them...but that's the pagan Greeks/Romans. But before them! Well then you get the Jews, but why stop there? Why not give it back to the descendents of the Phoenicians? If we're not allowed to go back past the Jews, why are we allowed to skip past the groups that lived there immediately before the Muslims? And are modern Jews really the same ethnic group as the Jews who used to live there? (I'm not saying Israel doesn't deserve to exist as a "Jewish state", I'm just saying "they were there before the Muslims" is not a particularly useful argument.) Adam Bishop (talk) 00:22, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The current conflict is between Muslims and Jews, so only the relative weights of their claims matter. StuRat (talk) 03:58, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Arab Christians in the area would object to that formulation... AnonMoos (talk) 04:33, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

And are they trying to create their own nation there ? StuRat (talk) 06:22, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

That's a good question actually. Where do Palestinian Christians fit into all this? It's always portrayed as a Jewish-Muslim struggle, when it's obviously much more complicated than that. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:42, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

StuRat -- through most of the period from the 1960s to the 1990s, the quasi-"official" Palestinian leadership avoided identifying Palestinian nationalism with Islamism, and Christians like George Habash were some of the biggest terrorists; and after the establishment of the Palestinian authority, Arafat made a point of showing up in in Bethlehem every Christmas, etc. etc. Some of that separation between nationalism and Islamism has now faded somewhat with the rise of Hamas etc., the way that Muslim gunmen used a Christian neighborhood to fire on Gilo, so that it would be the Christians who suffered the brunt of Israeli retaliation, etc. AnonMoos (talk) 09:29, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Marco Polo -- What you've said isn't wrong exactly, but you left out the fact that the reason why Jews lost population predominance in Judea-Galilee was due to the First Jewish Revolt and Second Jewish Revolt, and discriminatory or oppressive Roman and Byzantine policies in the aftermath... AnonMoos (talk) 21:22, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

In summary:

• Judaism, as an originally tribal religion, is to a great extent associated with the "Holy Land," and it had been a dream of the Jews to reclaim it ever since they lost it to the Romans.
• There was already a Jewish population there (the Yishuv).
• The territory is a neutral ground of sorts between the Ashkenazi Jews of Europe and the Mizrahi Jews of the Middle East and North Africa.
• The territory was thought in some sense to be "up for grabs" as it was part of the crumbling Ottoman Empire not generally inhabited by Turks. There was a sense during World War I that there would be all this terra nullius in the formerly Ottoman Middle East for the Allies to carve up how they wished after the war was over. This led the British to issue the Balfour Declaration of 1917 in the hope of getting Jewish support for the war. In fact, the Allies were promising a lot of things to a lot of people while secretly planning to keep everything themselves. Nonetheless, it's easy to see how a Jewish state in the former Ottoman Empire was a lot more practical than putting one in defeated Germany, for instance.
• Ottoman Palestine was thought, rightly or wrongly, to be A land without a people for a people without a land. It was considered (not without reason) underpopulated, and, at the time, there was no real "Palestinian" Arab identity that was separate from Arab identity as a whole. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:51, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Mwalcoff -- The "land without a people for a people without a land" slogan was loosely thrown around by 19th-century theoretical Zionists in Europe, but was not very prominently used by Jews actually living in British Mandate Palestine during the 1920s and 1930s. It stemmed more from the fact that many Europeans who visited Ottoman Palestine in the mid 19th century (and were not blinded by Biblical goggles) perceived it to be a pathetic crumbling misgoverned semi-wasteland (see The Innocents Abroad) rather than from any militantly dispossessionist characteristics of Zionist ideology. P.S. The standard accepted word for "pan-Arab nationalism" in the modern Arabic language -- قومية qawmiyya -- most literally means "tribalism"! AnonMoos (talk) 03:32, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Suppose that the Bretons — some of whose ancestors were displaced from Somerset, others of whose ancestors merged with Anglo-Saxon invaders to form the present population of Somerset — faced persecution in France. Suppose further that, according to Breton sacred texts, their god granted them the land of Somerset. Now, the English-speaking people of Somerset do not have an identity distinct from that of other English people. Would that justify forcing the people of Somerset off their land to make way for the Bretons? I don't deny that the Bretons would deserve justice or that they would deserve a place where they could practice their culture without facing persecution. Still, why should the people of Somerset have to suffer to end the suffering of the Bretons, particularly when the people of Somerset were themselves not at fault for the suffering that prompted the migration of the Bretons? Marco polo (talk) 19:09, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, can we please stop the arguing? If someone has something else to help answer the question, please add it, but if people are just going to argue about this, I think we should mark this question closed. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:32, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

How did Rastafaris come to believe in Haile Selassie I?

There's a germ of an explanation in Rastafari movement#Emergence, but it still boggles my mind. How did so many people in Jamaica come to think of a seemingly unassuming Ethiopian emperor as a Messiah? The article points out that he was at one point a famous black man in a European-dominated world, received by kings and queens as an equal, the inheritor of the one country in Africa which defied colonization. That I can understand. Still, he was merely succeeding Zewditu I of Ethiopia; so far as I see here he had no written testament that people follow, and he took a decidedly hands-off approach to the religion, which doesn't seem to have penetrated Ethiopia itself, and followed Christianity himself. He was criticized by Marcus Garvey for leaving Ethiopia during Axis occupation, and seems like he should have gotten criticized a lot more for allowing the List of massacres committed during the Eritrean War of Independence. Though I understand his power was waning in favor of Marxist elements in the government, wouldn't a Messiah have done something about that? I mean, by comparison, Emperor Norton I reportedly stopped an anti-Chinese pogrom with the power of a prayer. I just can't see how a few street preachers managed to talk so many people into holding and maintaining a belief in Selassie's divinity. Wnt (talk) 20:48, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

There was some kind of quasi-Garveyite prophecy that a king would be crowned in Aftrica, and Haile Selassie received extremely prominent international news coverage for the incident in 1936, when addressed the League of Nations and warned the democracies that if they didn't effectively act against the Italian invasion of Ethiopia, then sooner or later their own time would come. That was the one moment between the legends of Prester John and "We are the World" when a large number of people in far distant places really concerned themselves with Ethiopia... AnonMoos (talk) 20:56, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

An article by Garvey about the coronation in 1930 is here. Garvey wrote that: "The Psalmist prophesied that "Princes would come out of Egypt and Ethiopia would stretch forth her hands unto God" (Psalm 68:31). We have no doubt that the time is now come. Ethiopia is now really stretching forth her hands. This great kingdom of the East has been hidden for many centuries, but gradually she is rising to take a leading place in the world and it is for us of the Negro race to assist in every way to hold up the hand of Emperor Ras Tafari." Another key initiator of Rastafarianism was Leonard Howell (Gong Guru Maragh), whose pamphlet The Promise Key - here - says: "Upon His Majesty Ras Tafari’s head are many diadems and on His garments a name written “King of Kings and Lord of Lords", Oh come let us adore him for he is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, The Conquering Lion of Judah, The Elect of God and the Light of the World. His Majesty Ras Tafari is the head over all man for he is the Supreme God. His body is the fullness of him that filleth all in all. Now my dear people let this be our goal, forward to the King of Kings must be the cry of our social hope...." See also Grounation Day. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm, that article on The Promise Key makes a brief reference to "repatriation" to Ethiopia. I suppose that today, it is hard to picture how utterly appalling and oppressive the race prejudice against black people was back then, and so perhaps the notion of repatriation under a native Ethiopian king, with some degree of scriptural prophecy invoked surrounding it, fell on fertile ground? Yet it still seems hard to understand how it retained its pull as the world changed. Wnt (talk) 01:32, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

On consideration, I wonder whether a better comparison is to Joan of Arc and Charles VII of France? Perhaps when a nation, or a continent, is invaded and brought to ruin and humiliation, there comes a time when the people will perceive divinity in its remaining authority. Wnt (talk) 02:12, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

If you want a historical example of a king elevated into the god of a new religion established outside of the territories of his kingdom, then the so-called "mad caliph" Hakim more or less qualifies. In any case, the basic patterns of Rastafarianism seem to have been established long before the Eritrean War of Independence etc... -- AnonMoos (talk) 04:43, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

"Though I understand his power was waning in favor of Marxist elements in the government" is not correct. There were not Marxists within his gov't, but in the opposition. Haile Selassie was deposed in 1974 by a group of militaries, that gradually would come to embrace Marxism. --Soman (talk) 11:46, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Map confusion

Red and blue lines (on the bottom, Galicia of Austria-Hungary

Okay, this map is really confusing me. It's of the Eastern Front of World War I. I'm focusing on the blue and red lines with arrows that I assume are troop movements (I could be wrong, the map doesn't verify), and I'm confused as to which lines belong to which sides (allies or central powers). On the Galician theater, it seems as if they're both Russian offences, but as I said I'm not sure. Any help? 64.229.204.143 (talk) 21:35, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Russian troops are marked in blue. Austro-German troops are marked in red. Austro-German start lines are marked in thick dashed red (1 September). Austro-German offensives are marked with small red arrows, following a dashed-small red path, to their stop lines in thick red (20 September). In the South, Austrian forces attacked, and were repulsed in a strong Russian counter-offensive. Russian forces largely deployed without being in contact, ie, without clear "start lines". We can also see the "lightning" movement indicator for the deployment in Eastern Germany / Western Poland of German troops. Fifelfoo (talk) 21:41, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Agree. There are a few confusing things about this map:

1) Russia being represented by blue. Of course, this was before they were communist, but still isn't what you'd expect.

2) Like any map showing differences over several dates, this results in one area sometimes being in German hands, and sometimes in Russian. I find a series of maps, one for each date, to be far clearer. Traditionally, they did it all on one map to save space in a book, but, with modern technology, we can have forward and back buttons to allow you to step through frames, or let it run as a movie, without taking up much more space on the page.

3) A clear key/legend would help. StuRat (talk) 21:49, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

@3 - a lot of these military maps conform, to some extent, to the NATO Military Symbols for Land Based Systems (or to the US MIL STD that preceded it). That's not much help for this image, other than showing unit sizes. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 14:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

It's best not to go by surnames, since Paul von Rennenkampf was a Russian! -- AnonMoos (talk) 21:53, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

US Restraurant Reviews

Which website do I go to to find reviews of restraurants in the United States? I'm not a US citizen and I'm visiting the US soon. 202.177.218.59 (talk) 23:08, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

There's a huge number of review sites out there but one of the biggest is TripAdvisor. It has a section on restaurants (http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurants). ny156uk (talk) 23:39, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Yelp.com, Google Reviews, take your pick. PCHS-NJROTC ^(Messages) 00:58, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Zagat's Guide is always reliable if you will be in a particular city or region. Shadowjams (talk) 03:47, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

And there's the Michelin Guide, which, despite the sound, doesn't rate food by how much it resembles car tires in flavor and texture. Here's their guide online, for New York City: [44]. StuRat (talk) 04:02, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Urban Spoon (no article?! redirected...) also has ratings and reviews. Many of these have smart phone apps as well if you're wondering. Dismas|^(talk) 04:07, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Another possible source is Wikitravel, which discusses restaurants in its coverage of some places. Nyttend (talk) 05:40, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

If you're visiting the US you will need a good general guidebook. Don't just rely on websites. The best is the Rough Guide, which includes short but useful reviews of restaurants in every major city. --Viennese Waltz 06:05, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree that a general guide is useful, but its selection of restaurants is limited by the amount of space available on the page and the time available to its reviewer to visit restaurants in that city. (Having edited a travel guide, I know that reviewers face a very hectic schedule, sometimes with only a couple of days per city.) Living in the United States, I tend to rely most on Yelp.com and Tripadvisor.com. Zagat's is also very good but requires a subscription. Google Reviews are new and often rather insubstantial, so I wouldn't rely on them too much. Marco polo (talk) 21:26, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

A bit of advice I will give you based on OR. Whenever you go to a town or a city, eat where the local people eat. Avoid chain restaurants or places that cater to tourists. Search for an out-of-the-way place that is packed with local residents and you can't go wrong.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 22:46, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It rather depends on your tastes. If you have kids with you who are picky eaters, you might want to find a place that caters to tourists, rather than risking food that would be at home in an Indiana Jones movie or in the Klingon galley [45]. StuRat (talk) 23:18, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

February 21

Specialty hospitals and emergency situations

If EMS responds to an emergency situation like a heart attack where someone has one foot at the Pearly Gates and one foot slipping on a banana peel, or if there's a huge mass casualty, will EMS take the patient(s) to a specialty hospital like a children's hospital (even if the patient is an adult), a VA hospital (even if the patient isn't a veteran), or a cancer hospital to get the patient stabilized assuming that the said facility is the nearest facility and has an emergency room? I do know I've heard of civilians being taken to U.S. Naval hospitals on base in such situations. PCHS-NJROTC ^(Messages) 01:06, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

See Mass casualty events; the U.S. military and its regional hospitals, and, to a lesser extent, civilian hospitals, conduct mass casualty training for various scenarios; the response would depend greatly upon the type, scale, and location. Dru of Id (talk) 02:02, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm reminded of the scent in The Natural where Robert Redford's character is taken to a maternity hospital because it's the closest one. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:36, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Sounds fishy to me.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 05:27, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

In that hospital, Roy Hobbs conceived an alternate ending to the story. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:39, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Why "to a lesser extent"? I'm sure civilian hospitals hold lots of training on major incidents - they're the ones most likely to have to deal with them. --Tango (talk) 00:58, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Civilian hospitals do this for certification, funding, etc. Military hospitals schedule this in conjunction with each civilian hospital in its region, with hospitals outside their own region to avoid complacency, and periodically without notice, i.e. 'emergency conditions'. These exercises can form a large portion of one's enlisted /officer evaluation (which are no less frequent than annual without very specific exception), and 'needs improvement' or 'unable to handle an emergercy' do not further awards or promotions compared to one's peers. Dru of Id (talk) 07:19, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Why would a cancer hospital have an emergency room? I've also never heard of a children's hospital with one, and I doubt VA hospitals have them. --Tango (talk) 00:58, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Some Children's Hospitals certainly do have them - and you forced to watch endless hours of cartoons while you wait in them (true story). Both of Michigan's major children's hospitals have them. Some VA hospitals have them too.[46] Rmhermen (talk) 16:01, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

See Trauma center. Cases are triaged so that the worst cases go to the highest level certified emergency department that still has capacity. Trauma center may be rated at different levels for adults and children. Rmhermen (talk) 16:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad − academic career

According to his official biography, president Ahmadinejad holds a Ph.D. from Iran University of Science and Technology, "wrote many scientific papers" and "supervised theses of tens of students at MS and Ph.D. levels". Do we have details on his papers and his Ph.D. thesis (titles, contents, journals, publication dates)? --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 10:48, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Check coverage from the time of his election, there were many bio articles in the paper. Most were somewhat favorable, which I doubt you'd see much of in a Western paper these days.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Hamid Behbahani was his PHD supervisor, according to media reports, of course. However you don't need to be very excited about the fact that Ahmadinejad has a PHD from an Iranian university because many PHD students in Iran write thesis denying Holocaust. --SupernovaExplosion ^Talk 14:55, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

So, wait, because Iran has a bizarre take on the Holocaust and its university student's interests reflect that, even civil engineering must be somehow tainted by that? Come on, get off it. I've no idea whether his work in civil engineering or traffic engineering is any good, but unless it actually has something to do with denying the Holocaust, dragging that into it is just ad hominem. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:24, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I think the point is that Iran may grant PhDs to people not strictly for competence, but because they support the position of the ruling elite. So, it's possible Ahmadinejad may not be worthy of a PhD, but just might have known the right people and told them what they wanted to hear. But, of course, even the Nazis were capable of doing good science, as long as it wasn't in the fields where the party line had to be followed. It would be interesting to have somebody outside Iran review his work and determine if it's really PhD-worthy. StuRat (talk) 21:48, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

" just might have known the right people and told them what they wanted to hear. ": isn't it often like that, everywhere? Anyway, there are enough crackpots getting PhD in the West too: see Gillian_McKeith#Debate_about_qualifications or mediocre guys getting a PhD for a dissertation copied from the Internet (including Wikipedia): Karl-Theodor_zu_Guttenberg. There is no need to discrediting whole countries however.XPPaul (talk) 22:02, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Gary Null is another crackpot with a questionable degree from the US. However, if a particular university gives out bogus degrees, that would call into question any degree they give, even if the bogus ones are in a different field. StuRat (talk) 22:12, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I think there's there's a significant difference when it comes to questionable universities in developed countries with well respected universities. In those cases, the quality of the lecturers, researchers etc may be questionable because few people competent may want to work for such a university. Similarly few students genuine wanting to learn or to perform quality research are going to want to be students there. In cases of developing countries like Iran, if all the universities have problems, then quality lecturers and reseachers have limited choice. Either they can emigrate, and often many do or they do something else or they learn to live in the university system. Similar students can try to study in foreign universities but scholarships to do so, particularly at the bachelor level is usually fairly limited and only available to the ultra top students. And self or parent funding tends to be difficult. (There are greater options for postgraduate research particularly PhDs but not all may wish to do so and there may be some factors stopping them doing so.) So while there universities, even the best ones, may often not be as good as respected universities in developed countries and have a variety of problems, it may not mean their degrees are always useless. Nil Einne (talk) 23:13, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Not always, no, but suspect enough to require independent verification of the skills of the graduate. StuRat (talk) 06:34, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

"Iran may grant PhDs to people not strictly for competence, but because they support the position of the ruling elite." He's a civil engineer. What's the pro-Khomeni angle on that, I wonder? I think it's just foolish to assume that because he's from a country where they believe different things than this one that somehow he is less of a civil engineer than you'd find around here. There are, of course, differences in the quality of technical training on a country by country basis, but to assume just based on the fact that Holocaust denial is common in Iran, that suddenly all education is meaningless, is foolish. They have real scientists and engineers over there. They wouldn't be able to support a nuclear program if they didn't (even with help from outsiders). --Mr.98 (talk) 12:48, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

They might have more lax requirements for those in the ruling party, similar to how some athletes are given a pass on their grades in the US. A prof might not find it good for his health to flunk too many of the ruling elite. (I have no idea if the crazy dwarf in question was part of the "ruling elite" at the time, however. Indeed, his autobiography say he ranked 132 out of 400,000 when he took his college entrance exams in 1976, which was before the revolution. If true, then he apparently is quite bright.) StuRat (talk) 03:50, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

What you have to remember is that Iran is for the most part a rather modern country, which, when it is permitted, exports a large quantity of oil very well. It does not do that by having civil engineering degrees awarded to people who don't know which end of a T-square to grasp. Nil Einne's view is the fairly standard view of learning in countries upon which we look down a little bit, which adequately describes most in Asia.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It's probably worth bearing in mind that similar comments were made regarding the technological competence of Japan prior to WWII. Not a particularly helpful assessment.. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:02, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Huh? Are you saying Japan was NOT technologically competent prior to WWII? I think the Chinese, Americans, and Koreans who fought them would beg to differ. --140.180.9.36 (talk) 06:36, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

American education system vs Indian system

My friend who stays in USA visited last week and when he saw my textbooks he said that they are really difficult and education in USA is more easy and there is less burden on students. Is this really true . you can have a idea by last years 12th standard maths Question paper Rahul^{Text me} 11:05, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I think few 12th graders would be able to pass that in the US.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:11, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

There's no simple answer here. First, can you tell us what 12th standard maths test should correspond to in USA? Is it the last test before university (Last year of high school in US)? Otherwise we don't know what to compare it to. You might be interested in the Advanced Placement exams in the USA. In short, many American students could pass the test you post, but by no means all. We don't even generally require calculus in the USA :-/ An anecdote: I used to work in a graduate math admissions office in a large state university. We had many applicants from around the world, and around the USA. It was commonly believed that Asian (including India) applicants tended to have stronger qualifications than Americans on average. We did not compile statistics by nationality. Even if we did, it would be hard to ascribe cause. It may be that the Indian system is generally better at teaching math. It could be that Indians are genetically better at math. It could be that Indian culture puts more value on math. It could be that only the "best of the best" are willing to go to the other side of the world to pursue education, while it's pretty easy to move within one's home country. You can easily find many authors lamenting that USA education standards are too low, but that's more a matter of opinion than reference :)SemanticMantis (talk) 15:18, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm dreadful at maths and found most of those questions to be an utter nightmare. Then I came to Q.28, which is worth a lot of marks (equal to six early questions, according to the rubric). It seems so childishly simple, it's either very out of place or I have even less idea about maths than I thought. Surely once you've found that the first coin is gold, there's only two types of box it could be (gold/gold or gold/silver) so the answer is 50%? --Dweller (talk) 15:50, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I can only give an anecdotal answer, but I live in a largely immigrant community (in Canada, where we aren't as different from the US as we would like to think), populated mostly by Indian and Chinese folks. They all claim that the OP's statement is true based on what they learned compared to what their kids are learning now. So, anecdotally, yes. Mingmingla (talk) 16:20, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

SemanticMantis is right. Actually Indian culture and tradition put more value on math than on other subjects. The average Indian thinks math is smarter than social sciences. This is why average Indian students have pathetic deficiency of critical thinking. --SupernovaExplosion ^Talk 16:20, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Hehe, the answer to that is clearly 2/3. The question must be meant to catch people in a fallacy. ;) Wnt (to clarify, there are three gold coins you might have pulled, all with equal probability. Two are in a box with a gold coin) (talk) 18:27, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and I don't get that snub about critical thinking. Mathematics requires people to think things through for themselves. Wnt (talk) 18:38, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

In cases where there is only one right answer, very different skills are needed than in areas where shades of grey must be considered. A master mathematician doesn't always make for a good debater. StuRat (talk) 06:44, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

@Semantic This is a board Final exam paper which means it is compulsory for students to pass the paper to graduate from school while the percentage students score in the board exam are the basis for entry in BA(bachelor of art) or bsc. but if a student wants to get in a engineering , medical etc college he have to pass a entrance test IIT,AIEE,PMT(which from my personal opinion is way to difficult then board paper) Rahul^{Text me} 16:33, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

And my ques is not specifically on maths but on whole education system including

• bio
• Chemistry
• Physics Rahul^{Text me} 16:33, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

In that biology paper, what the heck is Q.10 driving at? Qs 5 and 7 are also very poorly worded. --Dweller (talk) 17:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

How many subjects do they have to pass in India and in America to graduate? The smaller the number, the more in-depth I'd expect the level of knowledge to be. --Dweller (talk) 17:00, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

hmm i dont know about USA but in india we have to pass in all subject and if someone is failed in any subject then there is a supplementary exam usually after 1-2 months Rahul^{Text me} 17:11, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

actually till 10th standard students have to learn all subjects but after 10th standard we have to choose subjects for eg if I pick PCM then i have to study only english/Hindi , physics ,Chem,,maths (no social science , commerce,bio) in 11th and 12th standard Rahul^{Text me} 17:20, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

So you have to pass in 4 subjects. --Dweller (talk) 17:22, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

yepp but some school also have an optional subject like (Computer science ,IP , physical education etc )Rahul^{Text me} 17:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Many of the questions are workable even to my badly rusted memories. Some of the terminology seems altogether unfamiliar - the gof and fog thing, for example. I should say, I can't answer this question without knowing what marks the students need to make, what fraction of students actually take this test, and how much cheating is going on. (Alas, at least in the U.S., when you see a teacher giving an unusually difficult test it very likely means that the answers are being distributed to the students ahead of time) Also, modern education - even in the U.S. - has been teaching more and more to the test. Those integrals are either nightmares from hell, or child's play, depending entirely on whether you've seen that particular formula before. The working of the differential equations might be the same way. Still, not to make any mistake about it, I think that twelfth grade students working any differential equation is pretty impressive compared to the U.S. norm! At least in the past, even calculus was pretty uncommon for them. Wnt (talk) 18:38, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The gof and fog thing is just badly typeset - it should say $g\circ f$ and $f\circ g$ (it's composition of functions). --Tango (talk) 01:17, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh, on the biology test, it asks for "the two species of filiarial worms causing filariasis". But our article Filariasis names six. :) Wnt (talk) 18:52, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The maths paper is roughly A Level standard in the UK. Most 18 year olds choose not to take maths at A Level. They would have only the GCSE they took at 16, and the grade C that is regarded as the standard pass at GCSE is a lot easier than that paper. In France, on the other hand, all young people continuing their education to 18 (which is the vast majority), take maths, and most of them have to do at least a bit of calculus. Even so, I think many French students wouldn't do well in a maths paper like this one. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:54, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

That's more advanced that A-level Mathematics (the basis calculus stuff is all in A-level Mathematics, and maybe some of the trig, but I don't think matrices are even mentioned). You could answer a reasonable amount of it with A-level Further Mathematics, though (so that's restricting it to just people that have chosen to really concentrate on maths - students studying Further Maths typically do 4 A-levels, so you are choosing to spend half your time from age 16 to 18 on maths). There are some things in there that I didn't really cover until first year at university (although that's more just a matter of choosing what to put on the syllabus rather than difficulty). As mentioned above, it's a little difficult to judge the difficulty without knowing what kind of percentage you should be getting and without knowing what else was on the syllabus that happened not to come up in that exam. If the exam pretty much covered everything, so you could prepare on those topics and practice those types of questions, I would expect an A-grade A-level Further Maths student to be able to get 70-80% on that paper. If it was a much broader syllabus, then that could significantly lower the mark. The vast majority of UK students wouldn't even think about taking Further Maths, though. --Tango (talk) 01:17, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but on the other hand this paper has no mechanics, and only one very basic question about statistics, which made up a large part of my maths classes from 16-18. So although a British student wouldn't be able to answer the matrix questions on the Indian exam, an Indian student would be similarly stumped by questions about, say, normal distributions on the A-level paper. 59.108.42.46 (talk) 03:22, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm a high school senior in America, and most of those problems look doable. --108.227.29.65 (talk) 23:12, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Are these same high standards held to for students in the poorest parts of India ? If so, I'd say the expectations for math and science are higher in India, whereas a "well-rounded student" is the goal in the US. (And with childhood obesity, our students are getting more well-rounded every day. :-) ). StuRat (talk) 06:48, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

These things are extremely difficult to compare given that different education systems focus on different areas of maths. I have heard anecdotally that British maths/science/engineering departments have a little difficulty with some students educated in China, who arrive with very high-level knowledge of classical geometry (though why their schools would consider that a good area to concentrate on, I'm not sure) but only a very shaky understanding of basic calculus. There have been some attempts to objectively compare educational attainment in different countries, like PISA, which doesn't cover India but ranked the US as about average for maths attainment of 15-year-olds in 2009. Of course, in many countries it is fashionable to believe that educational standards have been slipping behind those in other countries, and this is helped along by silly cherry-picked comparisons in the media like this one. 130.88.99.231 (talk) 12:15, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

@stu hmm yeah its a standard paper for the whole country as the paper is supplied by CBSE one day before the exam to schools so every school which is affiliated to CBSE(60-70%) have the same paper.117.224.183.128 (talk) 13:43, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

And what about the other 30-40% ? And do all kids in poor areas attend school right until they graduate ? StuRat (talk) 03:44, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Australian poet John Millet

My article should've been title simply "John Millett" instead of the "Australian poet John Millett". I've been having a difficult time making this simple change. I tried a redirect but the article went to John D Millett. I need to make this simple change because wiki searchers would be able to find the poet "John Millett" I'm sorry for being a klutz for not being able to do this simple task. Pjt48 (talk) 16:04, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I believe if a wikipedia article name were ever changed, it would break the whole Internet, or at least the part served by Google and Bing. This is like changing the TCP/IP protocol - you just can't do it. I propose that you explain the situation to John Millet, and kindly ask that he start calling himself "Australian poet John Millett". just kidding: bing wouldnt find the article either way. but for google, all the above applies, for sure. --188.6.76.0 (talk) 18:31, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Now for a helpful answer: To change the title of an article, just use the "Move page" button under the Page tab. I've moved it to John Millett (poet) for you. I've also made some changes to the text to make it more encyclopedic, add some categories, remove some unnecessary words etc. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 19:45, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I've also added a hatnote to John D. Millett, the redirect target of John Millet. The other alternatives are to move the above article to John Millet and put a hatnote for the D guy or turn John Millet into a disambig (discouraged for 2 pages but sometimes used when we can't decide which one should be the primary topic, e.g. Bill O'Reilly). BTW it's better to ask for help using wikipedia at WP:Help desk Nil Einne (talk) 23:22, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

It helps - a lot - in these sorts of issues to be clear on exactly how the subject's surname is spelt: in this case, whether it's Millet (one t) or Millett (two t's). This person seems to have 2 t's. The OP gave him only one t in the header, but the full compliment of t's in the question itself. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 00:09, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't see why it's such a big deal whether I copied and pasted the wrong variant from someone else's question (which was in the wrong place), concerning some Australian poet I've never heard of and don't particularly care about (poetry is not my thing). Particularly when the important action, adding the hatnote to the redirect target (of the correctly spelled name) so people looking for the poet have a fair chance of finding him if they aren't using an external search engine, was copied and pasted with the correct spelling and therefore had the desired effect. Would it be better in future, if I do not add such hatnotes, so people are unable to find an article they may be interested in, on someone I personally don't care about and am unlikely to ever care about? In case when noting I have done so, I happen to copy and paste the wrong variant used in the original question (or perhaps miss one character at the end) and therefore cause some alleged confusion over a redlinked non redirect (at the time), even if simple logic would have suggested that I actually meant the correctly spelled name which is and was a redirect to the other person with the same (including spelling) first and last name but who apparently normally includes a middle initial, rather then the redlinked non redirect. In any event, John Millet is now also a redirect to John D. Millett, as of writing this reply (i.e. it was still a redlink until a few minutes ago). I suggest John Millet follows whatever happens to John Millett unless and until we get an article on someone actually called John Millet. Incidentally, after fixing some archiving issues at Talk:Bill O'Reilly (political commentator), I came back here and happened to noticed the red link and had planned to correct it (but obviously did not do so after finding the reply). But even so, I guess the 1-2 hours of possible confusion over this redlinked non redirect when noting what I had, wasn't worth people actually being able to find what they're looking for. P.S. Of course if it did happen the poet was John Millet and the university guy John (D.) Millett, then the correct cause of action would almost definitely have been to move John Millett (Australian poet) to John Millet. Then perhaps add a hat note with some variant of Template:Distinguish to each article. Nil Einne (talk) 00:50, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Wow, that seems somewhat of an over-reaction. My comment was aimed mainly at the OP, if anyone. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 01:28, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Rule of the shorter term

• Does the rule of the shorter term recognize copyrights falling out of protection if it was only for failure to perform copyright formalities in the host country?
• Does the rule of the shorter term recognize copyrights falling out of protection due to other non-duration factors like works created by the US government?
• What is the minimum protection usually afforded under rule of the shorter term in most countries?

Magog the Ogre (talk) 16:57, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Maybe you should ask in an area specifically devoted to copyright discussions, such as commons:Commons:Village pump/Copyright... AnonMoos (talk) 14:47, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Calories and kcal

People talk about "250 calories" and whatnot, but when I look at food products, they tend to say "kcal". Does this mean "kilo calories"? If so, they really mean "250,000 calories" when they say "250 calories", no? Or am I confused? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 17:35, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Not exactly a humanities question, but the explanation is found in the calorie article. Favonian (talk) 17:44, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

the short of it is almost anytime anyone talks about calories, they should say Calories instead (capital c). kcal avoids this confusion — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.6.76.0 (talk) 18:07, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I didn't get an answer... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 18:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

THe answer is simple. When people talking about calories, they don't - you either mishear "This burger is 300 calories" when they really said "This burger is 300 Calories" (note capiltalizaiton) or they make the mistake of saying the former when they mean the latter. when people say calories, they MEAN TO SAY Calories. and a Calorie is a kcalorie. Nobody ever MEANS to say calories. THey always MEAN to say Calories. --188.6.76.0 (talk) 18:33, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The real solution is to use the metric units of joules and kilojoules, where nobody would dream of leaving off the "kilo-" prefix. HiLo48 (talk) 19:58, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Do dieters in fully-metric countries actually talk about joules instead of calories? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:11, 22 February 2012 (UTC

Never heard any dieter anywhere speaking in terms of joules. Just google joules diet and see that scientists speak in terms of joules. XPPaul (talk) 00:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Australians generally talk about kilojoules rather than calories these days. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 01:25, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Just to add another data point, I have in front of me here a pack of Chinese (a metric country) instant noodles and the unit is kilojoules. Everything else here in Canada (another metric country) seems to be in Calories. 99.245.35.136 (talk) 02:44, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

How many Kilojoules in a Calorie, or vice versa? And not to be ironically confused with Jewel (supermarket). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:12, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

According to our food energy article it's "One food calorie is equal to 4.184 kilojoules." I'm actually thankful it's just 3 units for measuring food energy; it could've been much worst[47].99.245.35.136 (talk) 03:20, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Does that mean that one Calorie is equivalent to 4.184 megajoules?. I see that it doesn't, I have just read the a "food calorie" is a "Calorie". -- Q Chris (talk) 13:52, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

There are two units of energy with the same name, the "calorie" (lowercase c, used in science, although not used very often any more since everything is metric now) and the "Calorie" (uppercase c, used in food, sometimes called a "food Calorie"). There are 1,000 calories in a Calorie, so a Calorie is the same as a kilocalorie, which is abbreviated kcal. It is ridiculously confusing! --Tango (talk) 22:43, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

What is "calorie"? and what is "Calorie"? answered before i posted. 203.112.82.2 (talk) 01:37, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It's very very simple really. There are two types of "calories".

• Big calorie which is known as Calorie
• Small calorie which is known as calorie

To avoid confusion always use kilocalorie which is known as kcal. 1 kcal is 1000 calories is 1 Calorie. Simple!!! 202.177.218.59 (talk) 02:12, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

February 22

How good are we to spot intentions of others?

Is there any reasonable study about that? Across evolution it was certainly a huge advantage to be more precise, so you wouldn't end up killing friends or letting enemies come to close to you. XPPaul (talk) 00:17, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

That's a very vague question. How would you measure it? Really, you need to compare against someone else, but you seem to be asking about the human race as a whole. There have been all sorts of studies into how well people can spot a lie (usually comparing different groups of people, eg. law enforcement versus the general public). I expect you could find them with a quick Google search. --Tango (talk) 01:23, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I was exactly thinking in a similar study to your suggestion, but comparing honest smiles to fake smiles. Apparently people in the autism spectrum disorder are not able to discern very well between the two types. Anyway, I don't know exactly how would I measure it, but some sort of multimedia followed by questions could be an option. Stranger studies have been performed in the field of psychology. XPPaul (talk) 01:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Please define spot. Refer to Epistemology for more details. 202.177.218.59 (talk) 02:18, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Best Native American Tribe to Live in

I am no expert on Native Americans (in North America) but if you were to pick one Native American tribe to live in before the European colonization (1500s-1600s) of North America which tribe would you want to have lived in and why? i.e. which tribe had the highest quality of life for all members, was the most peaceful etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Foljiny (talk • contribs) 05:13, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

You'd want all the neighboring tribes to be peaceful, too, or perhaps the tribe could just be isolated by geography, such as on an island. Yes, invasions are still possible by sea, but "good fences make good neighbors" and islands have well-established borders, eliminating many border disputes. A technologically advanced tribe that could presumably repel any attacks would also not be targeted.StuRat (talk)

Being isolated on an island basically means that your technological level is fixed and can lead to resource issues. Personally I don't think isolation is really the way towards happy living. I'd be more worried about famine and malnutrition than violence from neighbors. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:38, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not talking about total isolation, they could still trade with neighbors. Something like a Caribbean island. StuRat (talk) 03:42, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

In South America, the Inca Empire was a pretty nice place to be by some metrics: lots of food (the potato meant that your average Inca was much better fed than your average European or Asian at the time), lots of security (once you were a member), nothing to onerous from a religious point of view (compared to Aztec). In North America, we don't know quite enough about the Mound builders, but the fact that they had resources and security means they must have figured out something right (see also Mississippian culture; intensive maize is not as good as the potato, but I'll take it). This reflects my own biases, but I'm a fan of civilization and safety in numbers more than I am tiny groups wondering how many kids will starve in the next bad winter. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:44, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The Inca Empire was based off of domination of other tribes. It was a pretty sweet deal if you happened to be an Inca (a small minority), but if you were an average resident of the empire, your entire existence was to serve the Inca (who had somewhat of a God status). Don't like that? Fine, they'll take your entire local community, split them up, and send them to other parts of the Empire to integrate with those who are more loyal. That's one of the more pleasant things that I remember from my studies. I would certainly not want to have lived in the Inca Empire. Falconus^{p t c} 15:10, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Hey, if you've got the option to choose, choose the guys who are in charge. Again, they ate better and had better security than probably anybody else around there. I know we're always supposed to pick the societies that correspond with some kind of peaceful, individual existence, but I'll take civilization over the state of nature any day. Anyway I've spent a long time living off the benefits of being in a conquering empire so I can hardly start throwing stones there. --Mr.98 (talk) 17:56, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It's really difficult to answer this question because we lack much conclusive evidence for most of these societies before contact with Europeans. At the time of contact, I would think that the highest median standard of living may have existed in the most egalitarian societies, which often were not agricultural, such as the Inuit or some of the indigenous peoples of California. The state societies for which we have much evidence, in the Andean region and in Mesoamerica, were rather violent and hierarchical. Marco polo (talk) 16:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Inuit life seems pretty hard to me. A bit cold up there. Hanging out in California isn't so bad, though. Hierarchy doesn't bug me so much. The question about violence is who suffers from it. Again, I'm not trying to hold too different a standard than the one most of us on this here website currently work by and profit under. I'm not much of a hunter-gatherer, personally. --Mr.98 (talk) 17:58, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Being Haida seems ok...except for the people who always got attacked by them. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:31, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps best to be part of a comparatively later people. According to one author (whose book I have at my house), archaeological excavations of burial sites of the Glacial Kame Culture reveal that almost everyone died in their 30s or 40s, and I dimly remember reading that the lives of many other Archaic peoples (and probably the same is true of the yet earlier Paleo-Indian period) were similarly poor, nasty, brutish, and short. Nyttend (talk) 07:06, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

official language(s) BiH

I'll ask this here rather than at the language desk because it's a matter of law rather than linguistics.

What is/are the official language(s) of Bosnia and Herzegovina? (At the federal level, not for the FBiH or RS.) The BiH constitution does not specify an official language. The Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistcs (2006) cites a language law of 1993 which says there is one, which goes by three names; the CIA factbook says there are two, Croatian and Bosnian, which can't possibly be correct; a couple sources say three (Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian), but go into so little detail that they could simply be parroting someone else or repeating the three names in the language law without determining whether they are official as separate languages or as the same language.

This is a matter of what we enter in the 'official language' cell of the country info box. We've been having an argument on the talk page, but no-one has really compelling evidence. — kwami (talk) 08:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I took the liberty of looking at the website for their embassy to the US, as these websites generally have information like that, and it does not list 'official' languages, as such, just 'languages', which are Bosnian, Croation, and Serbian, possibly because the constitution does not specify an official language, as you say. Remember, Serbo-Croatian was originally considered one language, until the wars in the former Yugoslavia. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 11:21, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The right thing to do is to make sure that the info box shows "Languages" and not "Official languages", then list Bosnian, Croatian, and Serbian in alphabetical order. (Even though the differences among these three "languages" as spoken by natives of any given place in that country are smaller than the differences among the versions of English spoken by natives of any big city in the United States or UK.) Marco polo (talk) 16:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The country info box is specifically set up for official languages; in cases where there is not (at at USA) we say 'none'. Problem is, I don't know if that's the case for BiH either. — kwami (talk) 03:11, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

How does the Hong Kong government deal with asylum seekers such like Falun Gong practitioners and and others?

--Inspector (talk) 13:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC) !

Check Falun Gong in Hong Kong, (it rhymes!)and there are further links in the article. XPPaul (talk) 14:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Employer sponsored health care and age

If an employer in the US pays for the health care of all of his employees, and intends to do so for all new employees, does he has to pay more for older employees? Or is there any sort of deal for companies, where they get all covered for a fixed amount? The first case could lead to discrimination against older employees, the second could be a disadvantage for insurance companies when a company has many old employees. XPPaul (talk) 14:05, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

US employers that offer insurance have group insurance plans, so premiums do not vary based on an employee's age or other characteristics. Insurers have structured these plans to more or less guarantee them a profit. What I don't know is whether insurers require companies to submit demographic information about their employees that would be a basis for charging different premiums to companies based on their demographic profiles. Marco polo (talk) 16:44, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

How would the company get these demographic profiles?99.245.35.136 (talk) 17:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Again, I don't know whether this is done, but considering the scale of bureaucracy involved in US healthcare, I wouldn't be surprised if it were. The insurer could conceivably require a company applying for a group insurance policy to provide information on the ages, genders, rates of absenteeism, and perhaps other variables of its staff. The insurer might also offer different base premiums for companies in different sectors, based on occupational safety by sector or actuarial calculations about correlations between things like median level of education in a given sector and rates of cardiovascular disease, and so on. Marco polo (talk) 17:47, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I saw a video once about the history of Atari in which one of the head guys said they got ridiculously low health insurance rates because their staff was so young. The insurer paid for its judgement when many of the employees got braces! -- Mwalcoff (talk) 18:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I never knew how to end an e-mail conversation.

If I don't send a final "thanks" or something, I feel rude. But if I do, I feel annoying. I never know if people expect a final letter to me, and if they get hurt/sad if I don't respond to their last message. But if it goes on forever, it never stops... obviously. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 16:15, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

If they ask for information, you should answer something, if they offered you something, a short thank you should be enough. XPPaul (talk) 16:31, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The 'thanks' isn't so much of a sign of appreciation than it is just an indication of the end of the message. It's meaningless. I use 'thanks' as a closer, and I'm pretty sure all my correspondents recognize it as such. Mingmingla (talk) 18:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I almost always send a quiet thanks as a closer if it's a formal thing, and I'm pretty sure they note it and delete quickly. On rare occasions you get a "good luck with your etc." as a closer, but if they feel compelled to do that, it's definitely not asking for "thanks for your good luck wishes," it's a real closer. Between friends, you figure it out, but conversational exchanges, rather than requests, end in the middle of nowhere when someone gets bored. There's no rudeness there, just like it can't really be rude not to rsvp to an invitation you didn't want that is just cc'd to a million people. I still usually rsvp, but I don't expect others to. IBE (talk) 19:05, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I close my emails with "Thanks," followed by my name, only if there is something (however trivial) about which I can express thanks. If someone sends an email asking "Have you completed Task A?", I respond to the question but don't feel compelled to end my response with "Thanks" since the other person has not done anything requiring thanks. In those cases, I just close the email by typing my name. Marco polo (talk) 20:05, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, you can always think of it as thanking them for taking the time to read your email, if nothing else. StuRat (talk) 03:35, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Date of this 17th century map of Siam?

Shortcuts created in the Chao Phraya

Background: Ko Kret is an island on the Chao Phraya River in Thailand. According to most sources, it was created when a shortcut canal was dug to bypass a meander in the river in 1721–1722 (the topmost loop in the image to the right). A quick search for English-language sources reveals this page at ayutthaya-history.com which gives the year as 1722 and cites Van Beeck, Steve (1995). The Chao Phya, River in Transition. Oxford University Press. pp. 40–41.  I don't have access to the book, but most online mentions in Thai give 2264 in the Buddhist Era which is 1721 CE; close enough for me.

The problem: This map from the English edition of Simon de la Loubère's Du Royaume de Siam, published as A new historical relation of the kingdom of Siam, shows Ko Kret with its bypass canal. It is the loop by the settlements labelled Ban tret noi and Ban pac tret noi. (Tret is an older term for kret, which means bypass canal.) The English edition of the book was published in London in 1693, which predates the aforementioned date of the canal's excavation. I couldn't find the map from the original French edition (which was published in 1691); none of the versions I found in Google Books had the page scanned properly.

Question: This means that either the widely-circulated historical fact regarding the date of the canal's construction is incorrect, or that the map in question is actually from a later date than the book. Would anyone like to investigate, or suggest how to approach this? --Paul_012 (talk) 16:43, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The older map is clearly not very accurately drawn, and I don't think that you can be sure that the artificial island you see on the map is in fact Ko Kret. There appear to be many canals and distributaries of the Chao Phraya in this region, and I think that the waterways around the island on the old map could be any of several of those. Incidentally, I don't find "Ban tret noi" or "Ban pac tret noi" on modern maps of the area, so it isn't clear where those locations really stood. I don't think that this map counts as conclusive evidence contrary to the other documentary evidence. Marco polo (talk) 20:01, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Screen 18/615 is the original map in "Du royaume de Siam", Tom. 1, 1691, before page 4. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 20:22, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Er, what's the other river on the map? It quite clearly shows two rivers (or at least that's what it looks like it shows), but there's only one on the SVG. - Jarry1250 ^{[Deliberation needed]} 23:39, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

what's up with the highs in 'queen of the night' aria?

they're way outside the range being sung, no? Is it like falsetto, or what? Do any male roles (baritone, tenor, bass, whatever) have a similar aria sung way outside of the actual range of the part? What is this strange thing. 188.6.76.0 (talk) 18:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The aria in question is Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen. Some sopranos have a very high range! --TammyMoet (talk) 19:08, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it is amazing to me when a really good soprano just seems to casually toss it off. By the way, that link redirects to This One.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:11, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I've fixed Tammy's link.

It's high, but not so high that it's impossible. It goes up to top F, but only momentarily. Most sopranos see it as a challenge to be overcome, although relatively few can do it superbly well. Massenet's Esclarmonde has the highest note in standard opera - top G, and sticks around those stratospheric heights for long, taxing stretches, which really is beyond most sopranos, except for the likes of Joan Sutherland and a few others, which goes a long way to explaining why it's rarely performed.

Now, if you want to hear really high notes done jaw-droppingly brilliantly, listen to Mado Robin or Yma Sumac. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

February 23

Meaning of word or name

Searching the word Arwyn on wikipedia redirects to a disambiguation page for Sojourn with no mention of Arwyn anywhere. Likewise there's no explanation of "Sojourn". Ghits show it's Welsh, a rare personal or family name sometimes spelled Arwen for girls and is Welsh for "muse". Am I missing something here? or is there a case for making a separate listing for Arwyn? Thanks in advance, Manytexts (talk) 02:44, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

There's enough Arwyns, so I'll make up a dab page I've made a given name page. (Near as I can figure, the editor responsible actually intended to redirect to Sojourn (comic book series).) Clarityfiend (talk) 04:08, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Humanities Freemasonry

It is important to be accurate and precisely clearly separate Regular Mainstream Freemasonry from Illuminati Freemasonry . Satanic. Occult. If it was not for Democracy quality a lot of Muslims would not be in Canada, we highly question the abuses deaths incarcerations imposed upon Lord Lovat Scouts Canadians 1st family and Canadian Moroccans. Investigations are occurring across Canada.

Please include thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.151.227.128 (talk) 03:15, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

What? AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:06, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Andy. Please ask a question if you want us to answer you. Nyttend (talk) 05:15, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Low vehicles per capita for Colorado and Nevada?

I was just glancing through our List of U.S. states by vehicles per capita and as expected, the more "rural" states have a higher count of vehicles per capita. I expected New York to be that the bottom of the list but surprisingly Colorado and Nevada were the lowest two. These two states gave me the impression that they were quite sparsely populated. So what gives? 99.245.35.136 (talk) 07:23, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't know the answer, but a vehicle per capita measurement would be independent of population density (all else being equal). If there's one person in a state, and she has a car, that's a 100% vehicle per capita rate. . . DOR (HK) (talk) 07:58, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Pete Hoesktra's attack ad

I don't understand this ad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrbdXUWryXk

If you wanted to make someone the target of your hatred, why would you choose a young, attractive woman who was a contestant for Miss California? She even has a soothing voice and is obviously fluent at English, despite her artificial attempts to seem otherwise. --140.180.9.36 (talk) 07:41, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Ignorance, racism and bigotry come immediately to mind, followed by isolationism, protectionism and other closely related failings of the far, far right. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:02, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

February 17

Need help with Chinese or Japanese reference

In the article Soybean the 7th reference is in Japanese or Chinese: [48]/. I am trying to fix the references in this article and was wondering if someone could help set up this reference properly. Are foreign language okay? Do they need to be in the Roman alphabet? What parts of the website do we need to use? Since I can't read it, I don't know. 512bits (talk) 03:01, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Fixed. The linked page in ja is a dictionary search results page. I replaced it with an actual ja-to-en dic. page. As the ref #8 is a dead link, I replaced it with an en page. Oda Mari (talk) 06:44, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, Very kind of you.512bits (talk) 11:03, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

French capitalisation

I'm looking at a book with a title in all caps: MASQUES DE L'OUEST IVOIRIEN. How would this book title generally be capitalised in French? I searched Google and got multiple results for this book — Masques de l'Ouest ivoirien and Masques De L'Ouest Ivoirien, plus Masques de L'ouest Ivoirien (a postcard) and masques de l'ouest ivoirien (a different book). Nyttend (talk) 16:34, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

The usual French way of capitalizing titles is to capitalize just the first letter of the first word in the title and otherwise not to capitalize anything except proper nouns. So the title should be Masques de l'ouest ivoirien. Marco polo (talk) 16:37, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I think "Masques de l'ouest ivoirien" would be more usual, with "Masques de l'Ouest ivoirien" an alternative possibility... AnonMoos (talk) 16:40, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

So it's "iviorien" and not "Ivoirien", even though it's referring to Côte d'Ivoire? Nyttend (talk) 17:23, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, French demonyms are not normally capitalized as they are in English. Words like "anglais" and "français" and "ivorien" do not take special initial capitals. In general, French uses capitals much less commonly than English does. Proper nouns like personal names and country names (but not their adjectival forms) and the first words of sentences and titles are normally the only capitalized words. This google search has some good sources on French capitalization rules; several of the better ones are on blacklisted sites like about dot com, but they are fairly useful nonetheless. --Jayron32 17:38, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

My understanding (which may well be faulty) is that if the first word of a title is the definite article, then the word that follows it is also capitalized; otherwise, French titles follow sentence case. Thus Masques de l'ouest ivoirien is correct, but if the masques de were dropped, then the title would be L'Ouest ivoirien. Angr (talk) 18:01, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

But then we have titles like La bohème, not La Bohème. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 19:06, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

And then again we have Les Troyens, so I'm confused now. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 08:39, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

French Wikipedia, however, calls it La Bohème. And Troyens is a proper noun that is capitalized in French no matter what, anyway. Angr (talk) 13:14, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm still confused. Why would Troyens be capitalised, but americains, anglaises, australiens etc not be? They're all identifying people from certain places. Are cities treated differently from countries? -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:21, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Nouns are capitalized, adjectives aren't. So you write un groupe d'Américains but un touriste américain. It can be tricky sometimes, because in Il est Français, for example, the word Français is a noun even though it doesn't have an article, which is unintuitive to an English-speaker. As for La bohème, the b is lower case because the word doesn't refer literally to the region of Bohemia, but refers instead to the collection of all bohemians, that is, certain people leading an unconventional lifestyle. The word bohemian may or may not be capitalized in English in this sense. 96.46.204.126 (talk) 21:03, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

To answer the question about La bohème, it might be necessary to know something about late-19th century Italian conventions. 96.46.204.126 (talk) 21:25, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

• In the French Wikipedia there is the link to the site with comprehensive rules.--Luboslov Yezykin (talk) 18:58, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

See also this page for the rules on when to use a capital letter in the names of cardinal points. In the present case, l'Ouest would be preferred. 96.46.204.126 (talk) 22:38, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Nigdar ni bilo da nije nekak bilo - niti nigdar nebu da nekak nebu

Is the above quotation in Hungarian? Can someone translate it it into English for me? Thanks. Bielle (talk) 22:59, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I think it says "my hovercraft is full of eels". --Jayron32 23:06, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

It's not Hungarian. It's Slavic. Probably Serbocroatian. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 23:11, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I think I have an answer, but I don't speak any of the Slavic languages, so I may be wildly wrong. However, purely from my Google-ninja-skills, here is what I have. I'll lay out my sources so you can check up.

First I googled the phrase. Nothing leapt out. Then I tried Google Translate, which suggested it might be Slovenian, but I couldn't make head nor tail of the translation. Then I tried googling words one-by-one, and hit on Nigdar, which took me to our article Kajkavian dialect. It appears that Miroslav Krleža wrote a poem called Khevenhiller in this northern-Croatian dialect, although he used the spelling "Nigdar ni tak bilo da ni nekak bilo, pak ni vezda ne bu da nam nekak ne bu." It's clearly the same, though.

Googling on Khevenhiller got nothing, but eventually I found this page where someone is asking about a translation for the quote from Russian. My very limited knowledge of Cyrillic shows the pronunciation to be approximately the same, and someone gives a standard Croatian version (which still does not match your version). All this brings me on to the point, which is that the translation would appear to be:

However it used to be, it used to be somehow

It never happened yet that it was no-how

I believe it is a cross between a proverb and a tongue-twister. As to which language it is, some dialect of Serbo-Croat seems to fit. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 23:56, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

You are right, this is from a poem by Miroslav Krleža, part of the work called Balade Petrice Kerempuha. Full text is here, p. 34. The work was turned into a theatrical play and it is apparently so well known in Croatia that there is a square named after Petrica Kerempuh in Zagreb, there's a statue to him, and there is an article about him in Croatian Wikipedia.

The Russian quotation in your first link is very similar, but it is actually a completely different saying, from The Good Soldier Švejk by Jaroslav Hašek (book 2, chapter 3). Švejk predates Kerempuha by about 13 years. It is possible that Krleža borrowed it from Hašek.

I'm not an expert on Croatian either. The interpretation given by Theurgist looks like it could be correct.--Itinerant1 (talk) 11:37, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm a fellow Slavic speaker, but not really an expert on Serbo-Croatian dialects. I think "Nigdar ni bilo da nije nekak bilo - niti nigdar nebu da nekak nebu" (your quotation, which doesn't exactly coincide with the one cited at Kajkavian dialect#Examples) means: "Never has it been that it wasn't anyhow; nor will it ever be that it won't be anyhow". You may want another opinion though. I'm not even sure how to best express this in English. --Theurgist (talk) 00:20, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I found the quotation on the Facebook page of someone whose first name is Verrica. Does this help? Everything on the page was in Roman, not Cyrillic, letters. Bielle (talk) 02:15, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Ask the person whose page you found it on. RudolfRed (talk) 02:35, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Tried that; no response. Bielle (talk) 18:22, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

You're all wrong. It's actually extraterrestrialese and, loosely translated, means "Gort, disintegrate those clowns running for the Republican presidential nomination so we can have a palatable choice." Clarityfiend (talk) 21:45, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

February 18

paradigmatic

What does paradigmatic mean in the following sentence (found in a book): "Self-psychology, which adheres to a hermeneutic point of view, in particular, Kohut’s concept of empathy as vicarious introspection, is paradigmatic of this perspective." In this sentence, this perspective refers to the intrapersonal or intrapsychic perspective. Lova Falk talk 14:24, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I would interpret it as "Self-psychology ... is a typical example of this perspective", perhaps incorrectly, since I'm not a native speaker. Iblardi (talk) 14:32, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Neither am I, a native speaker, that is. I guess you are right but I would like to see it confirmed. I get crazy when the dictionary says: paradigmatic = "of or pertaining to a paradigm". Self-psychology ... is of or pertaining to a paradigm of this perspective - ??? Lova Falk talk 16:43, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

There are some uses (such as in the paper "The Prostitute: Paradigmatic Woman", which is semi-famous in certain scholarly circles) where the word "paradigmatic" has a very specific meaning, but in some other uses it seems to be mostly a pretentious jargon equivalent to "typical" or "characteristic"... AnonMoos (talk) 20:37, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Are you sure that "this perspective" doesn't refer to the "hermeneutic point of view" just mentioned? Also, "typical" and "characteristic" work for "paradigmatic" in this case, in my opinion, but I think maybe better would be "illustrative". --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 23:13, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

A particular style of roman numerals

Our articles on Gloriette and Roman numerals#Large_numbers both describe a particular style of roman numerals where 500 is denoted by I) instead of the current D; and 1000 is denoted by CI) instead of the current M – in both of these cases ) represents a mirrored letter C. On the images of inscriptions shown there (File:Glo 029bsm.jpg and File:Westerkerk MDCXXX.jpg), you can see that the C part of the numeral CI) looks the same as the numeral C that represents 100. But wouldn't this cause an ambiguity where the number 400 and 1000, currently written as CD and M respectively, would be written the same way in that notation: as CI) ? You could guess that subtractive notation was not at that time applied except possibly at the one's position, but File:Roman numerals Bungus 1584-1585.png, a manuscript form the 16th century, gives evidence of the contrary, showing how 9000 is written as CI) CCI)) . Are there examples that show how 400 was represented in this style? – b_jonas 21:56, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Could it be that subtraction was used for 9 (ix, xc, cm) but not for 4 (iiii, xxxx, cccc)? It occurs to me that I've often seen iiii and xxxx in matter quoted from medieval sources, but rarely if ever viiii or lxxxx. —Tamfang (talk) 08:47, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

February 19

Phonological change and information theory

According to the usual models of historical linguistics, an 'ideal' perfectly regular sound change must lose or conserve information (in the information theoretical sense), with all mergers strictly losing information. Yet, the reconstructions of ancient languages have a similarly-sized phonetic inventory to modern languages. How can this be explained? Is every (or just a significant chunk of) historical sound law irregular? If that's so, how can there be any confidence in the conclusions of historical linguistics (e.g., distinguishing between an irregular phonemic split in a daughter language and a parent language with a corresponding phonemic distinction that other descendents merged)? 94.195.23.7 (talk) 00:02, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Purely phonological changes tend to erode information, while analogical changes and morphological changes tend to restore information. As for phoneme inventories, allophonic alternations can get promoted to phonemic distinctions over time, balancing mergers or losses of sounds. However, some languages do decrease or increase the size of their sound inventories over time... AnonMoos (talk) 01:02, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm under the impression that change by analogy is somewhat rare, and happens on a lexeme-by-lexeme basis anyway (and so relying on it as an explanation too much can be indistinguishable from fudging). If lexical entropy is mainly increased by morpho-syntactic changes, I can see that being significant for more synthetic language families, but what about isolating languages? How can, say, Chinese dialects deal with this loss of entropy when they're so isolating? One way I can see is for the average size of lexical elements to increase and hence to carry more information with a smaller (& less entropic) phonemic space, but that would probably lead to a more synthetic morphology, which isn't observed in the case of Chinese. (As for allophony, that's either going to be a regular sound law with different allophones in complementary distributions and hence non-information-gaining, or have an element of irregularity and hence tricky to analyse historically.) 94.195.23.7 (talk) 01:39, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Analogical changes sometimes affect a whole verb conjugation pattern or noun declension pattern. The long-term evolution of Chinese has been that the ancient Chinese of 2,000 or more years ago had a large number of distinct syllables, many involving complex consonant clusters etc., and each syllable tended to be a unit of syntax. Over time, due to sound changes (especially in Mandarin), the number of distinct syllables has decreased, and the types of syllables allowed in the language have grown simpler -- and the corresponding compensation is that many syllables are now only a part of a multi-syllable word, and have no real separate meaning (i.e. such syllables are not syntactic units). Currently Vietnamese is probably more truly monosyllabically "isolating" than Chinese... AnonMoos (talk) 03:17, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

IPA

Why do the voiced uvular fricative and the uvular approximant have the same IPA symbol? --108.225.117.174 (talk) 03:08, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Because the further back you go, the less likely it is that any language will contrast an approximant vs. a voiced fricative with the same place of articulation. AnonMoos (talk) 03:27, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The further back you go? I'd say it's the more peripheral you go: contrasts between [β] and [β̞] are very rare too, and just like [ʁ̞], [β̞] has no dedicated symbol of its own. Contrasts are also rare between [v] and [ʋ] and between [ɣ] and [ɰ], the last of which had no symbol other than [ɣ̞] until relatively recently. Angr (talk) 15:40, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

However, some varieties of Dutch are claimed to have a [v] vs. [ʋ] contrast, [w] is commonly considered to fill the role of a bilabial approximant, and [ɰ] is back. By the way, when [ɣ] palatalizes, the end result is almost always [j] (as seen in Old English, modern Greek, etc.); any intermediate stage between [ɣʲ] and [j] seems to be rather unstable... AnonMoos (talk) 19:56, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

See Voiced uvular fricative. rʨanaɢ (talk) 03:32, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Does French use the fricative or the approximant? --108.225.117.174 (talk) 15:51, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

It depends on the speaker - either would be acceptable in all contexts, and indeed there are much wider variations (for example in Marseille /r/ is realized as [χ], and amongst older speakers in the south, Avignon region, even [r] is heard. The Parisien working class /r/ is stereotypically [ʀ], probably the most famous variation). You have to realize that language is not so absolute and occurs in shades. 24.92.85.35 (talk) 00:41, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I've even met people from the Gruyère District region in Switzerland who pronounce it as [ɹ]. --Terfili (talk) 07:00, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I know someone from Angers, who jokes that people from that area speak the purest and most beautiful French. But he uses [r]! I don't think he even realized it until I pointed it out. (His family is ultimately North African though, maybe that's where the [r] comes from.) Adam Bishop (talk) 23:50, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Szeemann, Harald

May someone know please how his surname is pronounced? --Omidinist (talk) 09:10, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

According to youtube, as "zimann" or "zeemann".--Itinerant1 (talk) 09:48, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you.--Omidinist (talk) 11:25, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Though he himself pronounced it with a voiceless alveolar sibilant /s/ (typically Swiss German, but at the same time reflecting the Hungarian "sz"). The surname might be a magyarization of the German word "Seemann" (seaman), a word which most Germans pronounce with a voiced alveolar sibilant /z/, but most Swiss and Austrian German speakers would pronounce as /s/. Swiss people trying hard to sound German often give themselves away by pronouncing an initial "s" (e.g. "sieben") voicelessly. ---Sluzzelin talk 12:15, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

So do Bavarians trying hard to sound German... Angr (talk) 15:43, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks.--Omidinist (talk) 15:42, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Salzburg

A related followup: how do Salzburgers pronounce the name of their city? What pronunciation would be used e.g. in radio or TV? The  Salzburg file used in the article uses /z/, but I'm not sure if the speaker was a resident. Neighboring Slavic languages overtook it with «S»: see cs:Salcbursko or sr:Салцбург. No such user (talk) 12:37, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

In standard German, radio and TV it is pronounced that way. The locals pronounce it bar:Såizburg (note that the whole article is written in Salzburg city dialect). --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 22:59, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

French pronunciation

Are there any general rules for determining whether 'eu' is /œ/ or /ø/ in a particular word? --108.225.117.174 (talk) 17:35, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Here how it was in 1890. --Luboslov Yezykin (talk) 19:08, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Here's an incomplete set of rules that is sufficient in most cases. You may find it easier to digest than the book.

• In forms of the verb avoir, the vowel is /y/. (Eu, eurent, ...) We'll exclude this case from now on.
• Be careful about words like gageure /gaʒyʀ/, where the ending is really -ure and the e is only there to make the g soft. These words are spelled gageüre, etc., in the new 1990 spelling.
• If the eu vowel is the last sound in a word, it's /ø/. (peu, lieu, lieue, ceux, monsieur...)
• If eu appears in the final syllable of the word, and this syllable is closed (i.e., ends in a semi-consonant, a consonant or a consonant cluster), then the vowel is usually /œ/. (peur, meurtre, seul, veulent, meuble, feuille, jeune...) This is always the case for -eur (/œʀ/) words. The exceptions are all -euse words, which are always /øz/, and about 30 sporadic exceptions (neutre, feutre, meute, émeute, jeûne, veule,...). See [49] for a categorization of these exceptions. The page seems to have left out Pentateuque, so perhaps it's incomplete. Words ending in-eute are automatically /øt/. An increasing number of French people are daring to use /œ/ in all these words (except the /øz/ ones - everybody agrees about those, in northern France at least) so if you're going for a French French accent, you can get away with using /œ/ for these and you won't shock anybody.
• If the syllable is unstressed (i.e., non-final) and closed, then the vowel is /œ/. (meurtrier, seulement, ...).
• If the syllable is unstressed and open, then it's hard to say. But the good news is, it doesn't really matter too much, because if you're talking at a normal speed people usually won't notice the difference. It's more often /ø/, but it can be /œ/ as well, especially when the word is derived from a root word with /œ/. For example, beurrer has /œ/ like beurre, while deuxième has /ø/ like deux. Heureux can be /øʀø/ or, in careful speech, /œʀø/, which is harder to say but more like the -heur in bonheur. 96.46.204.126 (talk) 21:40, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The book Dr. Pataki Pál, Francia nyelvtan a középiskolák számára, Tankönyvkiadó, Budapest, 1992 gives an (incomplete) set of rules in section 4.4. These seem to agree with the rules given by 96.46.204.126 above, but are somewhat less detailed. – b_jonas 09:56, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

labor sine deliciae vana

Could someone translate this from Latin: Labor Sine Deliciae Vana

It's supposed to be a spin-off of Leges Sine Moribus Vanae (Laws Without Morals are Useless), I think...

Thanks! 128.239.41.190 (talk) 23:27, 19 February 2012 (UTC)quake

Pseudo-Latin for "Work without pleasure is in vain." `Collect (talk)

February 20

Japanese name of Swiss agency

http://www.uus.admin.ch//pdf/10072300_SB.pdf has the Japanese name of a Swiss accident investigation agency, the UUS. What is the Japanese text? WhisperToMe (talk) 00:19, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

スイス連邦政府鉄道船舶事故調査委員会 Oda Mari (talk) 06:59, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Mari! WhisperToMe (talk) 08:20, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

This is the most common Japanese translation for the UUS:

連邦政府の鉄道船舶事故調査委員会

スイス Swiss (su-i-su)

連邦 federation

政府 government

の "政府の" means "the government's"

鉄道 railroad

船舶 ship

事故 accident

調査 investigation

委員会 commission

-- Toytoy (talk) 09:27, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the info and explanation! It's interesting that the official Swiss page does not have the "no" but the more common translation does WhisperToMe (talk) 18:10, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

That's becuase the former is formulated as a formal name, putting the "Federal government" into the title, as if it was named "The Swiss Federal Government Investigation Bureau...", whereas the altter occurs as part of a longer sentence, where the "Federal government" part is a descriptor and not treated as part of the name, roughly equivalent to saying "the UUS of the Swiss Federal Government". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:39, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Arabic name of Egyptian agency

What is the Arabic text that is the Arabic name of the "ECAA" - See the logo on the first page inside http://web.archive.org/web/20060214062337/http://www.ntsb.gov/events/ea990/docket/ecaa_report.pdf

Thank you WhisperToMe (talk) 01:16, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

It says " الهيئة المصرية العامة للطيران المدنى". Adam Bishop (talk) 09:32, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, Adam! WhisperToMe (talk) 18:06, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Chinese help

In 暗坑仔 - The first two are Ànkēng but is the third "zai" or "zi"? It's an old name for Xindian District. Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 06:14, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Generally, in Taiwan, "仔" usually pronounce "zai3". However, it is supposed to be pronounced "zi3" if you consult a dictionary. The number is for Chinese intonation.

"暗坑仔" (an4 keng1 zai3/zi3, dark + pit + little) is the traditional name for today's "安坑" (an1 keng1) -- a neighborhood in Xindian, New Taipei City, Taiwan.

The word "仔" usually means a kid or a little thing.

"牛仔" (cowboy, niu2 zai3/zi3). Literally: 牛 bovine + 仔 kid.

"仔牛" (calf, zai3/zi3 niu2). Literally: 仔 little + 牛 bovine.

"豬仔" (pig, zhu1 zai3/zi3). Usually a colloquial from of the pig, regardless of age and size.

"豬仔議員" (corrupted legislator, zhu1 zai3/zi3 yi4 yuan2). A legislator who sold his/her vote to the powers that be.

"狗仔隊" (paparazzi, go3 zai3/zi3 dui4). Literally: 狗 dog + 仔 little + 隊 team

"星仔" (Cantonese: sing zai) A nickname for Stephen Chow of Kung Fu Hustle while he was a young and inexperienced movie star. Now they all call him "星爺" (Grandmaster Sing).

"仔仔" (kiddie), a young adult actor in Taiwan is known by this stupid nickname.

In fact, this word is much more frequently used in Cantonese than in Mandarin Chinese.

Cantonese: 公仔 (a doll), 衰仔樂園 (sucker's land, Hong Kong's title for South Park) -- Toytoy (talk) 12:00, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the info! I think what I'll do is have both the "written" and "spoken" forms indicated in the Pinyin. WhisperToMe (talk) 18:12, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

That's not quite correct - Toytoy, it is not responsible to say "if you consult a dictionary..." when clearly you have not. The distinction is not that "仔" is pronounced zi when spoken and zai when written - that makes no sense since modern Chinese is "read as spoken". "仔" has three readings, each of which has a different meaning.

The most common pronunciation is "zǎi", which is a word which generally means "a young person or animal", and can in compound mean things like "cowboy" (when placed after "cow"), "piglet" (when placed after "pig"), "girl" (when placed after "female"), etc, usually used in a compound noun.

A second, less common pronunciation is "zǐ", which means "small" or "fine", as an adjective.

Finally, a third, archaic pronunciation is "zī", which means "to shoulder responsibility".

When used as part of a geographic name, the character is almost certainly pronounced using the first pronunciation, and unless there is some evidence that it is locally read with either of the two less common readings, I would go with zǎi. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:41, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I think he could use a "fishing area"

• http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2103311/Thierry-Henry-fish-tank-Arsenal-striker-plans-rebuild-6m-home.html
• http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/02/18/article-0-11CD744C000005DC-317_634x487.jpg

"Honey, what do we have for dinner?"

"Fish! Freshly caught fish!"

"If you don't like baked Nemo, I can get you Dory, sweetheart ..."

Seriously, what are the differences between a study and the "reading area"? -- Toytoy (talk) 08:52, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The differences will depend on your level of pretentiousness. Richard Avery (talk) 09:02, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

It's possible the "study" in this case is a computer room and the "reading area" is more of a library. Alternatively, judging from how the reading area joins onto the terrace, it could be a more casual area than the study - a few sofas and a couple of bookshelfs just to fill in a bit of space. Searching for "reading area" finds a few mentions of this kind of casual arrangement, although mostly in schools. Smurrayinchester 09:30, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

"Historically, the study of a house was reserved for use as the private office and reading room of a family father as the formal head of a household" (Study (room)). In addition, the study would have an office desk and filing cabinets, and the reading area wouldn't.--Itinerant1 (talk) 18:08, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

is ⟨c⟩ ever /ts/ in English?

Can anyone think of an English word or name (one that's not too obscure), where ⟨c⟩ is stably pronounced /ts/? I'm not counting things like dance, because for many people that's just /s/. — kwami (talk) 10:49, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Well if you don't count those you might exhaust all the possibilities (dance, dunce, fence, once, since etc etc...every one-syllable word that ends in -nce has a /ts/ for me). Adam Bishop (talk) 11:03, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I want an example that works for English speakers in general, not just those who happen to conflate prince and prints. — kwami (talk) 12:04, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Except for the cases you've ruled out, I don't think that c is ever pronounced /ts/ in a native English word or name. I remember when I studied Czech, that pronunciation seemed completely alien to and difficult to master for (American English) learners who hadn't been exposed to a Central European language before. Marco polo (talk) 14:16, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

That's exactly what I want it for: s.t. for people to latch on to. I don't expect a native word. Maybe a foreign name that's well-enough assimilated that people don't mispronounce it. Like for the "y" sound of J: We've got hallelujah and Jägermeister. Something like that. — kwami (talk) 14:50, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) In English, -nse, -nce, and -nts are homophonous. Prints and prince, mints and mince, quints and quince, dents and dense. For native speakers of English, these pairs are all pronounced the same. I believe that's because of the way that the voiced nasal "n" transitions to the unvoiced sibilant "s"; the tongue has to transition through the "t" position, and in the process is devoiced, which gives a "t"-like sound when pronouncing the words, and likewise, in words with the "t", the "t" sound tends to be slightly "destopped", as one transitions ones tongue. The result is that the two sounds end up the same. In other words, the actual sound is somewhere halfway between a pure "ns" and a pure "nts". See [50] for this concept used to hilarious ends. --Jayron32 14:53, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

You're right on all but one count: dents has a much stronger t than dense does. (Until that example, I couldn't even imagine what pronunciation the other guy was giving to prince that was different from prints. oh okay, prince like dense). 84.2.147.177 (talk) 15:05, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

We just had an amazingly heated debate about this exact same question less than a month ago. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:46, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right. I thought ns and nts were homonyms for me too, but dense and dents aren't. — kwami (talk) 16:16, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

When I first heard Oscar Wilde's story The Selfish Giant (on radio when I was a young boy), and it got to the part about "the prints of two nails", I was left wondering who this "Prince of Two Nails" was. It seemed odd to introduce a character but not explain who he was. The penny finally dropped. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 19:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Or the pence. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:06, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The only even halfway example I can think of is if one were to pronounce "czar" with a more Russianly-correct pronunciation than is usual... AnonMoos (talk) 16:03, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Toyed with that, but at the very least it's not stable, and most people won't accept /ts/ at the beginning of a word. There are various /ts/ words spelled -tcy, but that's really just /s/ for the ⟨c⟩. — kwami (talk) 16:16, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Found a few, but they're almost hopelessly obscure. The least rare were letovicite (though /s/ is given as a 2ary pron.) and privat-docent, but they're pretty much useless for illustration. So I think it's gonna have to be proper names. The only familiar Czech city with a c is Olomouc, but how many have even heard of it? Katowice is a little better. — kwami (talk) 16:44, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I doubt you'll find anything more common. Polish is probably the most obvious source language, but, at least in America, Polish words and names are usually heavily anglicized (e.g., the name Wysocki here is pronounced /waɪˈsɒki/ more often than /vɨˈsotski/). And I suspect that people who are familiar enough with makowiec or Adam Mickiewicz to pronounce them properly are probably not included in your target audience. Lesgles (talk) 17:01, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, maybe Podgorica is best; it is a capital after all (although unfortunately I think many English speakers wouldn't know that the country exists). Lesgles (talk) 17:03, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I was hoping there might be someone famous in the US or UK who has a name like that that had survived anglicization. — kwami (talk) 17:59, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Kwami, as I said before, I'm afraid this doesn't exist. The name Kosciuszko is somewhat well known in the United States, but it is typically pronounced kɑsɪ'juːskoʊ or something similar. City names such as Podgorica and Olomouc are not at all well known in the United States or I think anywhere in the Anglosphere. We are lucky if news announcers get them right on the rare occasion when such a name comes up in the news. (I don't think I've ever heard a news report that mentioned Olomouc, however.) Basically, only very learned English speakers (or immigrants from Slavic countries or perhaps Germany) will know how to pronounce these names. If you showed people on the street in the United States a piece of paper with the name Podgorica or Olomouc written on it, I'd be surprised if 1 out of 100 pronounced the name correctly. Marco polo (talk) 18:41, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Václav Havel was very well known in the West. I've often heard the "vaklav" pronunciation, but "vatslav" was slowly seeping through to the consciousness of the tin-eared. Anyone who'd ever heard of the dancer Vaslav Nijinsky would have twigged that these names are related (although the misleading "Vaslav" spelling in Nijinsky's case seems to have been made up. I've been querying this very issue recently on his talk page, and anyone who can help settle the issue for me would be most welcome). -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 19:43, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Jack that Havel is probably your best case. Certainly most news announcers eventually got his name right. Still, I think if you wrote his name on a piece of paper and showed it to people on the street (in the US anyway), an overwhelming majority would get it wrong. The /ts/ pronunciation for c is simply foreign to English. Marco polo (talk) 19:50, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

In the UK we do get exposed to some exotic names through the medium of football. For instance Petr Cech and Tomas Rosicky. The second is interesting - there seems to be quite a split of pronunciation between 'Rozhitski' and 'Rozikky'. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 19:53, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Many Jewish people in Western countries have names that are German/Yiddish transliterated into Polish. These often have a c representing a ts sound (z in German), even as they're typically pronounced by English speakers. Typical examples are Rozencwajg or Berenholc. 96.46.204.126 (talk) 20:03, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

And Jeannot Szwarc. Speaking of footballers, we have an AFL player named Justin Koschitzke, whom the announcers insist on pronouncing "ka-ZITS-kee", presumably to avoid saying "ka-SHITS-kee". I'm glad we don't have an Indian-heritage player named Dikshit or an Eastern European player named Lifshitz or Lipschitz. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:13, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I was going to suggest Rosický, since even BBC commentators who are usually appalling at getting foreign names right manage to pronounce the c (but not the s) in Rosický correctly. My experience is that when c is followed by another consonant (e.g. in Rosický or Václav) they're more likely to pronounce it correctly than when it isn't (e.g. in Kadlec or Katowice), I always hear the BBC guys say "Kadleč" and friends from England talk about Katowicie (both with a "ch" sound rather than "ts"). - filelakeshoe 01:16, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

For place names, how about Oświęcim? Everyone knows that one, although they may not recognize it right away as Auschwitz. Adam Bishop (talk) 20:36, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The "c" is not pronounce "ts" in "Oświęcim". More like a "ch" as in "cheese". That's the closest you can get with English sounds. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 20:42, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh yeah, that's Polish, not Czech. Oops. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I think Havel is probably the most well-known, and should do nicely. The footballers are probably more nationally known, I'd think. — kwami (talk) 21:18, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

A lot of people in England know who Rosický is because he plays for Arsenal. But, if you're trying this in the States then Hável is probably as close as you can get. - filelakeshoe 01:21, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

If you are considering languages other than English, the Pin Yin orthography for Mandarin Chinese uses the Roman letter "c" to represent the sound "ts". David Spector (user/talk) 02:35, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I think the OP was asking specifically about English. English speakers who are unfamiliar with Chinese generally have no idea about this pronunciation. rʨanaɢ (talk) 14:18, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

What does OP mean? It is not one of the listed WP abbrevs. David Spector (user/talk) 01:15, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Original poster. It's a Web-wide abbreviation, not unique to Wikipedia. Angr (talk) 01:23, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm surprised the letter "c" to represent the sound "ts" isn't better known, since ISO 9 is widely used and that's the way it is there. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 03:20, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Even in German, where the letter is named /tse:/, it isn't. Austrian train announcers still have trouble calling Jesenice, Lesce... - filelakeshoe 14:11, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Still, German keeps the /ts/ written as "c" in Latinate names: Cäsar, Cäcilie. --Theurgist (talk) 18:47, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

If "-nce" and "-nse" in word-final positions are [nts], what about words like, for example, pencil? --Theurgist (talk) 21:30, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

That has [nts] for me. Adam Bishop (talk) 23:43, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Really? You really hear a "t" sound in "pencil"? It's impossible to say "pent-sil" without almost making it 2 words. Maybe what you hear is just a glottal stop? -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 23:50, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Of course. Before the other thread about this subject, I would have thought it was impossible not to put a t in there. Without the "t" I would make the "s" a "z" I guess. Or, that is where I would add a glottal stop, between the "n" and the "s". Another example is "tinsel". (An example the other way is "damsel" which does have a "z", and if it didn't, I would pronounce it like "dampsel".) Adam Bishop (talk) 23:59, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

See, I'm half deaf but I can hear clear differences between the pronunciations "dam-zel", "dam-sel" and "dam-psel". -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 07:36, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, I can hear the difference, and I can pronounce "pencil" without a "t" and "damsel" with an "s"...but I don't, normally. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:40, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

French -ai/-ais/-ait

Are they pronounced like é (/e/) or è (/ɛ/)? I've tried looking online, but various places have given completely different answers (both are è; both are é; -ai is é and -ais/-ait are è). Which one is correct? --108.225.117.174 (talk) 22:46, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I was always taught the latter (that -ai is é and -ais/-ait are è), to be honest though, I would bet anything that all three are correct across different dialects. Phonological distinction between verb endings is hardly necessary in a language where subject pronouns are mandatory. - filelakeshoe 01:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

There's a lot of variation. If you're talking about the verb endings (future, simple past, conditional, imperfect), certain dialects retain the distinction described by Filelakeshoe, but in France I think it is more common nowadays to pronounce all of them as è (which does create some ambiguity with the verb tenses). See fr:Prononciation du français#Voyelles. Some dialects, on the other hand (southern France?), have é in all open syllables. Lesgles (talk) 02:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

In Quebec, conditional and imperfect endings are /ɛ/; 1st person singular future is /e/. Conservative Metropolitan French speakers and dialects also retain the difference. But you can't tell just on the basis of whether the word ends -ai versus -ai(s/t): the month of May, "mai", for example, is /mɛ/ (I think this is the case for pretty much all French dialects). --Atemperman (talk) 03:54, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

For words ending in -et, -aie, -ais, -ait and -aix, things are very clear: they're /ɛ/. Words ending in -ai are divided. As Atemperman said, j'ai and the future tense ending -rai are /e/. In Quebec, for example, mai, geai, quai have /e/, while vrai, balai, délai and essai have /ɛ/. I believe the pronunciation /mɛ/ for mai is perceived as characteristically European. The best advice is to look -ai words up in a dictionary. As for the /ɛ/-/e/ pair word-internally (which you didn't ask about), always use /ɛ/ in closed syllables. (In Quebec exceptions occur only in English loanwords like steak or in highly stigmatized varieties of the language.) In open internal syllables, the most difficult case, ai is more likely to be /ɛ/ in careful speech, allowing a distinction between maison and méson. But this is harder to perceive and it's not likely to be noticed by most people. Quebecers would generally be more sensitive to this than French people, however. 96.46.204.126 (talk) 05:58, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I used a reverse dictionary to find all words ending in -ai and checked their pronunciations in a Quebec dictionary. We have /e/ in: bai, geai, mésangeai, gai, mai, rai, quai. We have /ɛ/ in chai, lai, balai, déblai, remblai, délai, virelai, brai, minerai, frai, vrai, essai, étai. According to the TLFI, the only words for which /e/ is still possible in France are apparently gai and quai though at one time some others were pronounced this way as well. (Some sources also place geai in this category.) The change occurred under the influence of the spelling. Now it's possible to use /ɛ/ in all these words in France. 96.46.204.126 (talk) 07:18, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Correction: sais, sait and vais are exceptions in that they have /e/. 96.46.204.126 (talk) 07:56, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

February 21

French help

"Canonnade des Taiping contre les jonques de guerre des Tsing qui assiégeaient la capital du Royaume céleste" Would that be "Taiping cannon fire against the Qing war junks that are assaulting the royal celestial capital"? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 01:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The last part would be "the capital of the Celestial Kingdom". The rest looks fine to me. rʨanaɢ (talk) 01:46, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! Just added a description to File:Naval battle between Taiping-Qing on Yangtze.jpg WhisperToMe (talk) 03:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

That "were" assaulting. "Assiégeaient" is in the past tense. Actually, "that were laying siege" may be even more accurate. And it should be "capitale" (with a final e) in the original French. --Xuxl (talk) 10:07, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

"Hand" and "five"

Aside from Toki Pona and perhaps other minimalist constructed languages, is there any language where the words for "hand" and "five" are the same, or morphologically related? - filelakeshoe 01:27, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The word for "fist" is related to "five" in English, German, Polish, Russian and probably a whole bunch of other IE languages. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 01:31, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

You are right about Polish, but in Russian (and a few other Slavic languages) the word for "fist" is no longer related to "five". The PIE root of "five" is retained in a rarely-used word that means "metacarpus", and there is a rarely-used derivative of the word "five" that means "hand".--Itinerant1 (talk) 04:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

And of course English has the slang "five", as in high five or "give me five". Smurrayinchester 11:17, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The Hawaiian word lima means both "hand, arm" and "five, fifth" (source: The Pocket Hawaiian Dictionary with a Concise Hawaiian Grammar by Mary Kawena Pukui, Samuel H. Elbert, and Esther T. Mookini (1975), p 89. ISBN 0-8248-0307-8). -- AnonMoos (talk) 03:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Gee, lima is "five" in Malay too! — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 18:17, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, not an enormous surprise. Malay and Hawaiian are genetically related; ultimately descending from the same proto-language, they both belong to the Austronesian language family :) --Theurgist (talk) 21:20, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

In the Berber languages. e.g. in the dialect of Nafusa mountains (in Libya), it is: ufes, and in the dialect of Djerba (in Tunisia), it is: afus. 77.124.2.244 (talk) 08:46, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Yep, I knew there must be at least one case of it being the same word. Thanks! - filelakeshoe 13:00, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I remember a long time ago, in an English language school in Japan, the American owner used to say 'Gimme five!' and hold his hand up, expecting me to clap it with him, despite the fact that hands (in English) only have four fingers (plus one thumb). I always had to use two hands. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 13:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Where did you get the idea we only have 4 fingers on each hand? In general terms, all 5 of the digits are fingers. The thumb has its own name in certain contexts, that's all. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:06, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Maybe KageTora is from The Simpsons - filelakeshoe 21:53, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

As English teachers, it was a common 'joke' we had to teach the names of the fingers. The main four have '[something] finger' as names (we don't use 'pinkie' in Br.Eng), but only the thumb has an entirely unrelated name. In Japanese, all five have '[something] finger' as names, so this is why it was appropriate. I suppose you had to be there.... KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 11:10, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

A little finger is sometimes called a pinky or a pinkie, from a word meaning "five".

—Wavelength (talk) 21:44, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

.

Additionally, the Arabic dialect of Djerba (not to be confused with the Berber dialect of Djerba I've already mentioned above), uses the slang phrase: "(please) count my hand" (being: 'ad-yeddi) - for "five", as well as for "Thursday" (as the fifth day of the week), although it also uses the more standard Arabic word for "five" (being: xamsa). 77.125.106.165 (talk) 01:31, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

This is just an anecdote, but I recall reading—some years ago—that a few primitive tribes in the Amazon rainforest had a numerical system based on 2 (instead of 10, as in modern English).

The thing was, at least one of said tribes, at the time of first contact, was apparently starting to "evolve" to a base-5 system. To wit, they called 3 "one over two—cf. "eleven" from "one over ten"—and they called 4 "two over two"—cf. "twelve" from "two over ten." But, curiously, they (the youngest generation among them, anyway) were increasingly referring to 5 as "my whole hand, all together."

May this be to what the OP is alluding? Pine (talk) 07:17, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

You mean the Pirahã language? 21:25, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The Khmer language works in base five, with '6' being 'five-and-one', and so on. I actually use the segments on each finger to count, giving me 12 on each hand, using the thumb to keep count. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 11:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Exactly - curiosity which stemmed from a discussion about the origin of number glyphs, and how the glyphs for 1 and 5 often resemble a finger and a part of the hand (such as Roman numerals I and V). So it didn't seem inconceivable that the words hand and five would be the same in one spoken language - filelakeshoe 17:02, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

səgg-JEST

Who pronounces the word suggest this way? A dictionary of mine says this is the American pronunciation of the word, while the British is sə-JEST. Is this true? I'd never known it could be anything else than sə-JEST. --Theurgist (talk) 10:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

It's the standard American pronunciation. I've never noticed it pronounced otherwise by any English speaker from anywhere, though that's probably because I, like most people, hear what I expect to hear. Compare with "success". By the way, I'm from Pennysylvania, studied in California, worked in the Midwest, and have been living for 13 years in Europe, where most native English speakers I come in contact with are not American. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 10:42, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm American, and I agree the standard pronunciation includes the [g] sound, though in rapid speech it can be dropped. Angr (talk) 11:09, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm an American, and I don't think I'd ordinarily pronounce a velar in either "suggest" or "flaccid" (though obviously there's a velar in "success"). Does anybody pronounce a velar in "exaggerate"? -- AnonMoos (talk) 15:33, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I have a /k/ in flaccid but no /g/ in exaggerate. Does anyone omit the /k/ in accident? 15:53, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Angr and Dominus that [g] is standard in American English at the end of the first syllable in suggest, though no doubt some speakers omit it. It never occurs in exaggerate. I think the pronunciation of flaccid will vary from speaker to speaker, probably because the word isn't spoken very frequently and people who recognize it may recognize it mainly from having read it. (In everyday speech, most people will say "soft" instead.) Marco polo (talk) 18:24, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I've never pronounced the /k/ in flaccid, and I've never heard anyone doing so. It would sound too close to "flaxen". -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:03, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm Canadian and pronounce suggest with a g sound. Linguist Larry Trask wrote the following in his Why do Languages Change?:

• The usual educated British pronunciations of suggest, figure, recognise, manufacture and liqueur – ‘sa-JEST’, ‘figga’, ‘rekanise’, ‘mannafacture’ and ‘li-CURE’ – all sound extremely uneducated to Americans, while the American pronunciation of moths – ending like scythes – sounds hilarious to Britons.

• I wouldn't be including "recognise" in that list. Anyone, anywhere, who says "rekanise" marks themselves as uneducated and illiterate. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 23:47, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Even the OED1 agrees with you on this, so the pronunciation of recognize with g appears to have been standard for a long time in Britain. It can't always have been this way, because the g was lost in the etymology, which went through the French reconnoistre (now reconnaître). Through Google I've found countless present-day denunciations of the g-less pronunciation, however, so it can't be that uncommon. 96.46.204.126 (talk) 17:52, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Phonetician Windsor Lewis suggests in his blog that our pronunciation of suggest may have been influenced by the spelling:

• Certain words show GA diversions from presumable former usages that have possibly been influenced at least in part by the inclination to prefer a more satisfactory relationship between sound and spelling in some cases also observable in GB subvariant forms. These include albeit /æl`biɪt/ as well as /ɔl`biɪt/ as in GB, ate /eɪt/ rather than GB /et/˃, Berkeley as /`bɜrkli/ GB /`bɑkli/, brooch /bruːʧ/˂ as well as GB /broʊʧ/, clerk as /klɜrk/ GB /klɑk/, gooseberry GB /gʊzbri/, lieutenant as /lu`tenənt/ GB /lef`tenant/, plait as /pleɪt/˃ (GB /plӕt/), schedule as /`skeʤul/ (GB /`∫edjul/˃), subtile as /`sʌbtəl/˂, suggest with /g/, shone with /oʊ/, nephew as /`nefju/ rather than /`nevju/ (a revision that occurred in GB only in the later 20th century). Revisionary subvariants of these kinds occur in various words eg fortune which beside the common-to-both-varieties type /`fɔʧən/ has GB subvariants /`fɔʧun/ and /`fɔtjun/.

In case anybody's wondering, suggérer has a [gʒ] in it in French. This may not mean much, though, because the earliest sources I've found are from the late 19th century. Spelling pronunciations became a major feature of the language in France after 1789 when the bourgeoisie took over from the aristocracy, who were less inclined to such things. 96.46.204.126 (talk) 20:57, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm Canadian and I don't pronounce it with a /g/, but it doesn't sound too bizarre if I say it that way. I'm sure I've heard it, I just never really thought about it before. Adam Bishop (talk) 23:42, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Americans don't have a monopoly on spelling pronunciations, though. The British pronunciation of herb with a /h/ is a spelling-based innovation. Angr (talk) 10:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I've sometimes wondered about that very word. It looks like perhaps people in England started saying it that way to avoid being accused of being h-droppers. Do you have a published reference for it? 96.46.204.126 (talk) 17:40, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

This is just the darndest thing. Are we saying that Americans pronounce "suggest" with a hard "g" like "egg" then followed by a "j" sound like "jam"? Although I am British, I must surely have heard Americans say "suggest" numerous times, yet I have never noticed this and cannot even remotely visualise it. Shows how, as someone mentioned, we hear what we want to hear. 86.176.209.243 (talk) 01:32, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Unleaded?

In Australia we dropped lead from petrol ("gas" to Americans) long ago, well before many current purchasers of the product were born. What intrigues me is that the most commonly sold version of the fuel is still described as "Unleaded". It's an accurate but a silly name. Does a similar situation exist elsewhere? HiLo48 (talk) 11:08, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

In the UK we still call it "unleaded" and you can still get "4 star" but that is rare. --TammyMoet (talk) 11:12, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

(ec) Lead was "dropped" "long ago" only in the sense that unleaded petrol became first available, and then increasing in usage and popularity, so much so that leaded petrol became more and more difficult to purchase. Many older cars running on leaded petrol were still out and about well into the 1990s. It was only in 2002 that leaded petrol was finally phased out, and even then it was recognised that many older cars would not be able to run on unleaded petrol, so the alternative given to them was lead replacement petrol. So until about 2000 it was still necessary to distinguish between "leaded" and "unleaded" petrol, and even today it still makes sense to distinguish between, for example, "unleaded" and "lead replacement" petrol. This page from the federal environment department may give you some information. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Sometimes it is still called "unleaded" in Canada, but everyone normally calls it "regular" (as you can see in this picture. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:17, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

For the sake of completeness, it's still called "unleaded" in the US as well. Dismas|^(talk) 11:17, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Not in my part of the US. In Detroit, it's often just labelled by octane, so 85, 87, 89, 91, 93, etc. If they use words, it's likely something like "economy", "regular", "mid-grade", "premium", and "ultra", etc., with no mention of lead. StuRat (talk) 22:04, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, so for at least ten years it's been impossible to buy "leaded" in advanced western nations. When will we move on from calling the current major product according to what it isn't? HiLo48 (talk) 11:22, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Maybe about the time we stop using terms like "glove box" and "dialup". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:17, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

What's wrong with "glove box" ? My car has a compartment which opens on the dashboard, where I regularly store my gloves. Seems like a reasonable name for it to me. StuRat (talk) 22:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

With the road maps and the ice scraper? And the jade monkey? Adam Bishop (talk) 23:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I keep my maps (a road atlas, actually) in the trunk, since it's too big for the glove compartment. (When headed into unfamiliar territory I would relocate it to the dashboard.) I also keep ice removal tools in the trunk, since they are rarely needed (I have a garage) and tend to be dripping wet when put away. You lost me on the jade monkey reference, I'm afraid. StuRat (talk) 19:16, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Googling "jade monkey", the most frequent reference seems to be to some sort of scavenger hunt in a Simpsons episode. But given that the show is typically satirizing things, it might refer to something even more obscure. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:40, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

See also Retronym. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 13:44, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

In Australia's case, because 1) it has not been that long since there was "unleaded" and "leaded", and actually the majority of drivers (say aged 25 and up) will have learnt the distinction at a time when it still had day-to-day relevance; and 2) as I said above, it still makes sense to distinguish between unleaded and lead replacement petrol. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 14:02, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Retronym is hardly helpful as this is the exact opposite of a retronym. A retronym is a new word that's been coined because technology (or sociological development) has created a new distinction where formerly there was none, but this is a case where a distinction that was formerly made (leaded vs. unleaded gasoline/petrol) has ceased to be made (not completely, but largely). But how widespread is the term "unleaded" really? I think in common speech people still say gasoline/petrol (who would say "I'm almost out of unleaded" rather than "I'm almost out of gas/petrol"?). "Unleaded" probably still appears on signs at gas stations, but there it may well be legally regulated. And even so, I think "unleaded" is often deemphasized: I'm sure I've seen gas stations where the pumps are labeled "Regular unleaded" and "Premium unleaded" for the high-octane variety. Angr (talk) 20:11, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Reminds me of old records that say "In full stereophonic sound !". Nobody much bothers mentioning that new music is in stereo, anymore. StuRat (talk) 22:06, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Leaded is still currently available in the U.S. - in the form of avgas for small airplanes. Rmhermen (talk) 01:22, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Traffic sign for gas station selling unleaded fuel

All gas stations sell only unleaded fuel in Hungary now, and this has been going on for so long that none of them actually write “unleaded” anywhere. However, the traffic sign that directs people to gas stations is still the one that historically used to stand for gas stations selling unleaded fuel (as well as leaded ones). This sign shows two gas pumps, one black and one green, the green standing for unleaded fuel, similar to the figure shown. This is unusual because traffic signs rarely have figures drawn in green (green background does occur).

While the fuel isn't labeled unleaded anymore, similar redundant labels are used for marketing many other products. One example is that most advertisments for cars list ABS among the “extras” of a car, despite that all new cars are now sold with ABS. – b_jonas 10:21, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't believe that ABS is required in all new cars sold in the world. At least our article seems to say it isn't required in the U.S., for instance. Article may be out-of-date, though. Rmhermen (talk) 15:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Even worse is companies like HBF Health Fund, which call their optional non-hospital cover "Essentials". And just in case you thought that "essential" was an absolute term, they also offer "standard", "extra" and "premium Essentials"! Mitch Ames (talk) 12:57, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

What is the word to describe...

What is the word to describe the redundant repetition of a word after an acronym. Eg "LCD display" -> "Liquid Crystal Display Display"? -- SGBailey (talk) 14:42, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

RAS syndrome --Tagishsimon (talk) 14:50, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Something similar sometimes happens in names including words from more than one language "The La Brea Tar Pits" etc... AnonMoos (talk) 15:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

See List of tautological place names.

—Wavelength (talk) 17:18, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think the fact that part of it is in intials (which are not an acronym unles they spell a word), stops it from simply being tautology. Gurumaister (talk) 16:43, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

This reminds me of how Los Angeles is usually called "L.A.", even though the "L." is just short for "los", meaning "the". I seem to remember that it is sometimes (at least in Finnish) just called "Los", which would mean a city named "The", but apparently people who use this name are unaware of this (at least Finns would be, as Finnish lacks explicitly written articles). JIP | Talk 20:17, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Speaking of which, the field used by that ball club that plays down near Disneyland, fully translated, could read "The The Angels Angels of Ana Home home." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:20, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't get why so many people are against such repetitions. Many acronyms have several meanings, and very often such a repetition is the best way to disambiguate. – b_jonas 10:23, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The best way to disambiguate is to simply not use the acronym. Eg refer to a "liquid crystal display" instead of "LCD" or "LCD display". (An "LCD display" could be several LCDs on display at a trade show display or in a display window.) Mitch Ames (talk) 12:37, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

These would once have been tautologous, but (at least for some people) are no longer. It is an example of the etymological fallacy to argue that because the "D" of "LCD" was originally the initial of "display" therefore the phrase "LCD display" is tautologous. "LCD" is now a word that can qualify "display". The fact that it may also be used without "display" is irrelevant: "television" and "television set" (or "television receiver") both exist.

"Would you like to enter your PIN number!!! And for me what is almost as bad, or possibly worse, is the use of acronyms, often on radio or TV, followed by an explanation of the acronym. Common in the UK at present is 'NEETs', young people who are Not in Employment, Education or Training. Either use the acronym and shut up, or better, don't use the acronym. (climbs down from soapbox) Richard Avery (talk) 19:26, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

They could be legitimately trying to educate the audience, but, more often, I think they are trying to sound hip by showing off their latest buzz-word. I find it particularly annoying when managers at work try to convince everyone they are experts at management by using such stupid terms. The pointy-haired boss would be proud (or should I say the PHB ?). StuRat (talk) 22:48, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if this is still true (or even if it ever was), but I used to hear that Rachel Ray would use the term "EVOO" and then always remind the audience that it means "Extra-Virgin Olive Oil". Regarding "PIN", the problem might be that "pin" is a real word, and if you say "enter your PIN", some Lena or Ole might try to insert an actual pin into the machine (or, if they're in the south, an "ink pin" [i.e. "pen"]). So that one's easy to explain away. But it doesn't explain "ATM machine" and such as that. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I think the problem is that people don't want everything to be acronyms, as this causes problems with those who are unfamiliar with the terms. If you have no idea what an ATM is, then "I'm going to the ATM machine" makes far more sense than "I'm going to the ATM". This also applies if you vaguely know what the acronym is, but need a bit of a reminder, or, as mentioned previously, if the acronym has multiple meanings. StuRat (talk) 22:43, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

February 22

Middle English

What are the various versions of spelling in Middle English of our word today of "fifth" (between "forth" and "sixth")?--Doug Coldwell ^talk 00:13, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

See here. (Note that trivial variations of the listed spellings can be seen in the illustrative quotations.) Deor (talk) 00:19, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

OED has "Forms: OE fífta, (fem. & neut. fífte), ME–16 fift(e, (ME fiȝft, ME fyfft), ME south. vifte, ME–15 fyfte, fyfthe, (ME fivet, ME fyvet), ME fyve(þe, -th(e, (ME fifþe, -the), ME–16 fith(e, 15– fifth." [51] "ȝ" is Yogh; perhaps it may not display properly. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 05:17, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 12:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

'Buried in' or 'buried at' a cemetery?

Per this recent change on our Whitney Houston article [52], to my British-English eyes, 'buried in' a cemetery seems to read better than 'buried at' - but is this true in American English? Not an appropriate place for an edit war, but just out of intellectual curiosity, what is the convention? AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Both look right to me, but I personally prefer "buried in". I come from the US Southeast. Falconus^{p t c} 08:14, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I would use 'buried in' to refer to a grave specifically, but (usually) 'buried at' when referring to the cemetary. I think the former could be used in either scenario though and doubt there would be a strict rule. AJCham 13:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Either one works, but anecdotal evidence from various conversations with fellow genealogists indicates that buried "in" such-and-such cemetery is used more often than buried "at". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

How does one spell suffixed words derived from English verbs ending in "-fer" ?

Hello, again!

Some time ago, I noted that there are 6 common verbs in the English language that one stresses on the last syllable, but that do not inflect with a double-consonant. For instance, one would say "She kayaked down the river," and not "She kayakked down the river."

Methinks, however, that when it comes to verbs ending in -fer, the rules of stress do not apply; rather, it is a question of a suffix's etymology. Namely, if a suffix—beginning with a vowel sound—is of Anglo-Saxon or Norse origin, the verb double-inflects. But if said agglutination came to us as an Old French or Latin back-formation, the verb does not.

Viz.

to confer

Nordic suffixes	-s	-ed	-ing
	confers	conferred	conferring
Latinate suffixes	-ence	-ment	-able
	conference	conferment	conferable

to defer

Nordic suffixes	-s	-ed	-ing	-al
	defers	deferred	deferring	deferral
Latinate suffixes	-ment	-able
	deferment	deferable

to prefer

Nordic suffixes	-s	-ed	-ing
	prefers	preferred	preferring
Latinate suffixes	-ence	-able
	preference	preferable

to refer

Nordic suffixes	-s	-ed	-ing	-al	-er
	refers	referred	referring	referral	referrer
Latinate suffixes	-ence	-ment	-able	-ee
	reference	referment	referable	referee

to transfer

Nordic suffixes	-s	-ed	-ing	-al	-er
	transfers	transferred	transferring	transferral	transferrer
Latinate suffixes	-ence	-able	-or	-ee
	transference	transferable	transferor	transferee

Of all the possible explantions, this one seems to make the most sense to me. Am I right, or am I missing something here? Pine (talk) 08:15, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't know about you, but I pronounce kayak with stress on the first syllable: [ˈkaɪ(j)æk]. And -al is a Latinate suffix, not a Germanic one. Merriam-Webster gives the spellings conferrable and deferrable, while both transferal and transferral are acceptable spellings (though transferal is more common). Referable and preferable are stressed on the first syllable. And I'm not sure the word referment even exists. Angr (talk) 10:17, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

But preferment does. It's not mentioned. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 10:37, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

So, perhaps it is an issue of stress, after all. I'll double-check with Webster soon, and write down their spellings to see whether they properly align with the—somewhat more prescriptive—OED. At any rate, thank you very much for the answer, Angr, it definitely pointed me in the right direction. (For what it's worth, the very same Webster's dictionary pronounces the verb to kayak as \ˈkī-ˌak\ with a secondary stress on the last syllable; nevertheless, it inflects it as "kayak/kayaks/kayaked/kayaking.")

This is just my speculating, but something very similar may have led me astray; to wit, how one would agglutinate certain verbs ending in a /k/ sound, relative to the etymology of suffixes. Scilicet, how do verbs ending either in "-<vowel> and c", or in "-voke" inflect?

eg.

to traffic

Nordic suffixes	-s	-ed	-ing	-er
	traffics	trafficked	trafficking	trafficker
Latinate suffix	-able
	trafficable

to revoke

Nordic suffixes	-s	-ed	-ing	-er
	revokes	revoked	revoking	revoker
Latinate suffixes	-able	-tion	-ive
	revocable	revocation	revocative

Does suffix etymology play a role in any of this, or am I still in the dark here? Pine (talk) 04:16, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Are you spelling British or American? E.g. do you spell cancelled or canceled? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 04:48, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Possessive of 'Mice'

I was reading Animals in Translation by somebody by the quaint American name Temple Grandin, and one sentence struck me as odd. The author was talking about "mice's perception". Would this be correct? Technically, the spelling of 'mice' does not end in '-s', so it would probably work along the lines of a similar phrase such as 'children's perception' (both 'mice' and 'children' being plural), but the /s/ at the end of /mais/ threw me and made it sound odd. Is it correct? KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 10:59, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Mice's is correct. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 11:02, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

and why is the plural of (computer) mouse not computer mice?--Radh (talk) 18:48, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Who says it isn't? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:23, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The Microsoft style guide for technical writers does; it says to avoid both "mice" and "mouses" and just call them "mouse pointing devices". The rest of us who aren't technical writers for Microsoft can use either "mice" or "mouses" as we please. Angr (talk) 22:40, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Or "meeces". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:43, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

No, no, no. Meeces is the plural of moose. You know, as in "I made three chocolate meeces yesterday." Angr (talk) 00:59, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

See Collective noun#Terms of venery (words for groups of animals). (I wonder where I came across the term venery and how did I know it applied here?) ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 18:56, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, how is that link relevant? Angr (talk) 22:40, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

When you feel that you have pronounced something wrong (but haven't)

After sharing some pistachios I commented to a friend that whenever I say the word "pistachio" it feels like I've mispronounced it, but I think about it and realise that I was right. My friend said that strangely enough he had the same feeling. I have three questions. Firstly is there something about the letter groups in this word that makes it feel wrong, or is it just coincidence that we both had the same feeling? Secondly, is there a name for this phenomenon of feeling that you have mispronounced something? Thirdly does anyone else have particular words that make them think they have said it wrong? -- Q Chris (talk) 11:21, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

"chio" is a reasonably common sequence in Italian words, where it is pronounced with a /k/: that may be part of why you feel uncomfortable. (Spellings with and without 'h' occurred for "pistachio" in English, French and even in Italian, according to the OED). I have observed that people differ over the consonant they use in "mocha" and "macho": historically, "mocha" is from a place-name in the Middle-East, so it was originally /x/ (like "loch"), but today usually /tʃ/ (like "chocolate"); whereas "macho" is from Spanish, where the consonant is pronounced /tʃ/. My theory is that people are aware that the words are "foreign", but may not be aware of their specific origin, or of the spelling rules appropriate to that origin.

I don'[t know about a name for the phenomenon. I don't have this, but there are words which I always think I've mis-spelt. --ColinFine (talk) 14:08, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I've never heard mocha pronounced with anything but /k/ for the ch. Angr (talk) 15:10, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Same. Have only ever heard it as "mokka". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 17:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Wait, with the first syllable like "mock"? I only know it with the first syllable rhyming with "poke". Angr (talk) 22:36, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps it's because "pist" sounds like "pissed" ? I have a similar problem with Uranus, which either sounds like "urine us" or "your anus", neither of which seems socially acceptable. StuRat (talk) 19:08, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

As in "philanthropist", for example. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It would once have been like "OO-ran-us". The "yew" is an anglicisation. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:42, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, although one could also say "you-RAIN-us" and maybe pre-empt that antique joke. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Zulu translation

I want to say 'people are people through people' in Zulu. I think it is either 'umuntu umuntu ngabantu', or 'umuntu ngumuntu ngabantu'. My internet searching so far offers both versions. Can anyone give me a clear answer as to which is more correct, and also it would be helpful to know how each of those two phrases translates exactly back to english if you start with the Zulu. Thanks if you can help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.84.219.135 (talk) 16:23, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Take a look at Talk:Ubuntu (philosophy)#umuntu ngumuntu ngabantu. Roger (talk) 19:18, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Never mind the Zulu - what does it mean in English? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:22, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The English speaking equivalent phrase seems to be no man is an island - Cucumber Mike (talk) 22:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

February 23

"Put that in your pipe and smoke it"

This was used in an episode of Downton Abbey, set around 1920. Is this expression that old ? StuRat (talk) 03:58, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

"since early C19. Peake, 1824; Dickens in 'Pickwick Papers'; 'Ingoldsby' Barham: Miss Mary Braddon (1837-1915), the now forgotten bestseller of late C19...It's a fact worth noting: that, despite its continuous currency and continual - indeed,

constant - use, very little attention has been paid to this phrase, which is, I'd say, rather more of a c.p. (catchphrase) than of a proverbial saying. And, by the way, it derives from the very widely held, not entirely erroneous, belief that pipe-smoking and meditation go together..." From "Dictionary of Catch Phrases: American and British from the Sixteenth Century to the Present Day" by Eric Partridge, updated and edited by Paul Beal, Scarborough House, Lanham, Md., 1992)." Henry^Flower 04:49, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, so it predates that period by about a century ? StuRat (talk) 05:01, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Indeed; giving the decline in pipe-smoking during the last century, I would have been surprised had it not been coined by the 1920s! Henry^Flower 05:23, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

And here I thought pipe-smokers were more visible now than ever before. StuRat (talk) 05:54, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I will mark this resolved.

Resolved

February 16

gran turismo 5 ver

Anyone know what version of the game is officially sold in Australia, the european some else? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.35.6.26 (talk) 12:33, 16 February 2012 (UTC)is everyone fucking dead or what?!!

No we're not dead, we just don't know the answer to your question. Swearing at us volunteers is hardly likely to produce a response except this one, you know. --TammyMoet (talk) 14:30, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Maybe re-arranging the phrase "the european some else" into English would help. Britmax (talk) 17:45, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

According to our article on Gran Turismo 5, there will be at least 10 different versions of the game, not all of which are out yet. So far it seems the standard and signature editions are sold in Australia. It also seems that the U.S. and Europe each have multiple special versions, one European version is sold also in Australia, another maybe not. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 18:21, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

To answer your second question, no, we're not all necrophiliacs. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:02, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Unless Tom Lehrer's friend "Hen3ry" is a contributor here. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:09, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

February 18

Cap (Sport) (Association football)

List of footballers with 100 or more caps said no men have obtained more than 200 caps.The most caps is 179 obtained by Ahmed Hassan Egyptian footballer.But i found Soh Chin Aun obtaining 252 caps?!?! i think it is a wrong information.It's true or false,if false what is his real caps? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.24.174.195 (talk) 10:42, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I think the clue is in the linked article: "Although not recognised internationally, he was claimed to have had 252 international appearance for his country, making him the most capped international player in the world." So this claim is not recognised by the relevant authorities, it would seem. --TammyMoet (talk) 11:05, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

The FIFA records are here, and state that "FIFA recognises only matches played within the FIFA World Cup™ (including preliminary competitions), continental competitions (including qualifiers), friendly matches between senior national teams and Olympic final and qualifying matches played up to and including 1948 (with certain exceptions) as "A" international matches...." But, I haven't tracked down anything that sets out FIFA's records in relation to Soh Chin Aun. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:16, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Malaysia played it's first international A game in 1953 (as Malaya) but didn't become a FIFA member until 1956, since then they have played a total of 588 FIFA recognised internationals over the intervening 59 years. During a 15 year spell, Aun is supposed to have played 252 A level games for his country - which would average out as 17 a year and be just under half the games ever played by Malaysia. Even taking into account yearly tournaments this is a bit of a stretch logically. Nanonic (talk) 14:01, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

A list of all FIFA-recognised A-level international fixtures involving Malaysia is found here (the search can be customised). --Theurgist (talk) 15:40, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Customising the search to include only the years 1970-85 yields 204 recognised Malaysia matches in total during that time. Even if Aun played every game he still falls short of the claimed number. AJCham 04:35, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I've checked the page history and it's somewhat revealing. Initially the number of international caps was missing from the infobox, with question marks left in place. Then:

1. 25 September 2007: A figure of 200 is entered, unsourced.
2. 21 January 2009: The figure is changed to 250, again without a ref.
3. 13 June 2009: Changed to 252.
4. 15 July 2009: The 252 claim is now also added to the article text.
5. 8 May 2011: A reference for the claim is added - a YouTube clip which postdates the addition of the article text by almost a year.

Unless someone knows of a source making the 252 claim prior to June '09, this may be a piece of misinformation which originated here and spread. AJCham 05:12, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

What's My Line? Game Show - Contestants

Does any one know where can I find a list or something for the contestants of the British version of What's My Line? Because I belive that a relative of mine was a contestant on the show and even won. Scotius (talk) 14:42, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

That could be difficult (without more information from your relative). I think your best bet would be to first determine and then contact the appropriate production company (several different companies produced it over the years), assuming they still exist.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 11:51, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

February 19

Washington National's (MLB) retired numbers

The numbers retired indicates the number "10" twice. That would seem to be an error. If it was retired for the first one listed, then it wouldn't be available to be reassigned and retired a second time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.223.81.187 (talk) 19:54, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

This seems to be the source of that list [53]. It also lists the number 10 as retired twice, so the error (if any) is coming from the Washington Nationals, and was not introduced by Wikipedia. RudolfRed (talk) 20:39, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Both Dawson and Staub were players with the Montreal Expos before the Expos became the Nationals—see Montreal Expos#Retired numbers. The likely explanation is that both players wore the number 10 before the Expos decided to honor either by retiring his number; thus, the team honored both by retiring the number in the name of each player. Deor (talk) 21:03, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

And indeed, if you look at Rusty Staub#Retirement and Honors and Andre Dawson#Accomplishments, you'll see that the number was retired for Staub in 1993 and for Dawson in 1997, after both players' careers were over. There's no reason why Dawson (an Expo from 1976 to 1986) couldn't have worn the same number as Staub, since it hadn't been retired yet. Deor (talk) 21:18, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

It is quite possible to retire a number for multiple players, and the Expos/Nationals would not be the first team to do so. The Boston Celtics retired #18 for both Dave Cowens and Jim Loscutoff, Loscutoff has a seperate banner at the TD Banknorth Garden which reads "Loscy" among the retired numbers. The New York Yankees retired #8 for both Bill Dickey and Yogi Berra. The Chicago Cubs retired #31 for both Fergie Jenkins and Greg Maddux. There's many more, but I won't list them all here. --Jayron32 00:01, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Idiocracy and South Carolina

In one scene of the movie "Idiocracy", a person shouts "SOUTH CAROLINA! WHAT'S UP!" out of the blue. What is this a reference to? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 22:49, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Is this pronunciation of "there" Southern?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=489pO9q8guA#t=53s — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 22:51, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

It sounds stereotypically "hillbilly" to pronounce "there" as "they-yer." (Like the Cleatus character on The Simpsons.) Which is kind of odd because it's a song about teenagers from Los Angeles. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:01, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Frank Zappa was from Baltimore, where they speak a variety of English that lies somewhere between Mid-Atlantic English and typical Southern English. It could be just his native accent. Or it could be a deliberate prounciation to fit the meter of the song (making it two syllables instead of one). It's hard to say a single word out of context is directly of one dialect. There's also a LOT of very different dialects that come from the Southern U.S. Some shiboleths of many Southern accents are to make a monophthong out of a diphthong, this "fire" becomes pronounced very much like "far"; and certain diphthongs become two monophthongs, thus "Soy" can rhyme more with "Buoy" than with "boy" (check Alton Brown's pronounciation). So, perhaps that's what's going on here. But it is hard to say one way or the other. --Jayron32 00:22, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Sounds to me emphasized to rhyme with 'hair'. Pfly (talk) 05:44, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

February 20

Two questions related to movies

I have two questions:

1) What was the most popular movie on or around the date of May 3, 1933? The must-see movie. Like, what was the movie everyone was talking about during that period?

2) Back in 1933, Syd Field's book, Screenplay, was not available to screenwriters or filmmakers back then. What book(s) did they use instead, back then? 98.234.170.206 (talk) 01:52, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

According to our article, 1933 in film, I think it'd be safe to say that King Kong was all the rage, having opened in March of that year. --McDoobAU93 01:56, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

As far as question 2), William Wallace Cook's book "Plotto" was apparently quite influential for aspiring writers of both print and film. Erle Stanley Gardner supposedly spoke its praises, and Alfred Hitchcock himself had a copy special ordered in Britain (it was only published in America), and used it frequently in his early work. Wikipedia has an article neither on the author or the book, which is a bit of a glaring hole, but this recent story from NPR does a good job explaining the influence: [54]. Listen to the audio piece as well. It's pretty good. If I get inspired, I might take a crack at those redlinks as well... --Jayron32 03:53, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Awards show venue

It's understood the Golden Globe Awards ceremony takes place at the Beverly Hilton Hotel. Since Whitney Houston was found dead at that hotel, will the Golden Globe Awards ceremonies have to be relocated to another venue?24.90.204.234 (talk) 06:03, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Why would it ? I'm pretty sure they don't plan to use her hotel room for the ceremony. Her death appears to be accidental, but any police investigation would be largely confined to that room, in any case. StuRat (talk) 06:05, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Furthermore, the 2012 edition of the Golden Globes already happened a month before Whitney Houston died, and the next ceremony is scheduled to happen in January, 2013. I don't think that anything related to her death will be ongoing by that time, and certainly nothing in the Beverly Hilton... --Jayron32 06:17, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

But I have a feeling Whitney Houston might be mentioned in the "In Memoriam" segment of next year's Golden Globe Awards ceremony. Could that be possible?24.90.204.234 (talk) 07:56, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Possible? Sure, it's possible. Probable? I'd say so but then I'm nobody when it comes to the Golden Globes. And at this point, that's likely all you'll get is "Probably". Dismas|^(talk) 08:14, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd bet money on it. Even knowing that they don't always have an "In Memoriam" segment (they didn't in 2010, apparently), and even knowing such segments sometimes receive as much attention for the names they mysteriously overlook as the names they include. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 11:58, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Emmy Nominations

How Do Emmy nominations work? T.R. Knight was nominated for both episodes when all other emmy nominees are nominated for one? [55]Curb Chain (talk) 22:59, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, any entry to one of the acting categories involves submitting only one episode that represents his or here best work (although they are still only credited with just their TV series; the particular episodes they submitted are not officially listed[56]). Luckily the rules for the 57th Primetime Emmy Awards can still be downloaded here. On page 8, it says:

The length of the episode submitted for individual achievement may exceed, by as much as double, the standard running time of the series episodes. If the episode is in two parts, both parts may be selected as long as they do not cumulatively exceed twice the standard running time of the series episodes. (emphasis added)::

Thus Knight was able to submit both parts of the two-part episode "Six Days". Zzyzx11 (talk) 02:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

February 21

Scrabble / Words With Friends

I've been roped into playing Words With Friends with a few people and have some questions. I don't normally play Scrabble, so I'm unfamiliar with exactly what constitutes a legal word. A few times I've tried to play 'jew' and 'nazi' only to find that it won't accept them. Too bad too since the J and Z are worth so much. Now I've just found that I can't play 'dijon' either. Why are these words not allowed? (I'm going on the assumption that WWF uses the same basic set of rules as Scrabble.) Dismas|^(talk) 03:15, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

In Scrabble, you can't use proper names, which require capital letters, so that's why Jew and Nazi are dissallowed. Same for Dijon, which is either the name of a city or a brand name. RudolfRed (talk) 03:23, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think Dijon mustard is a brand name, but it is a type of mustard named after a place, which makes it capitalized (although other things named after a place aren't capitalized, like champagne, bologna, and cologne). The Scrabble rule can be simplified as "you can't play any capitalized words unless there is also a non-capitalized version". So "god" is OK, meaning any of them, even though "God" is not, meaning the old man with the beard trying to zap Adam's fingertip after rubbing his feet on the carpet. :-)

I'm surprised "nazi" isn't allowed, in the "soup nazi" sense. There's also a non-capitalized version of "jew", meaning to haggle somebody down on a price, but that probably isn't allowed because it's offensive slang. StuRat (talk) 03:36, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Indeed -- see Official Scrabble Players Dictionary. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:41, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I also have to wonder if WWF has a PC filter that blocks potentially objectionable words. However, a friend recently played "twat" without a problem (he even apologized for fear of offending me by playing it). --McDoobAU93 03:42, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. I've used words like 'whore' before. Dismas|^(talk) 04:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The greatest game of Words ever featured my wife playing the word "jism" over my previous word, "shit", for 69 points. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:50, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Different games use different dictionaries. You need to find out which dictionary WWF uses. Also, I would expect there to be a list of rules somewhere. RudolfRed (talk) 03:53, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Apparently it uses the Enhanced North American Benchmark Lexicon. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:50, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

See the very bottom section of the rulebook here. Basically they took a freely available medium-sized wordlist and tweaked it a little. LukeSurl ^{t c} 23:58, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

P.S. I've updated Words With Friends with this, and other, info. LukeSurl ^{t c} 00:51, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

FIFA and separating football and politics

From what I've read, FIFA rules require that national football associations be independent of the country's government. I can see this being a possibility in countries where there is such a concept as "independence from government" for a private enterprise. But how is this enforced (or even attempted!) in countries where state-control is all-pervasive? I can't imagine that the DPR Korea Football Association, to use an extreme example, enjoys the slightest genuine independence in its' decision-making. Woe to the DPR Korea FA president who defies the will of the "Dear Leader" in making appointments or team selections! The same would apply to many other countries, including Iran (the Iranian FA is allegedly connected to the pro-ahmedinajad faction), China, Myanmar, etc, etc. How does FIFA attempt to police the "independence from government" rule in these countries? Or is the rule just a smokescreen, selectively applied only to non-totalitarian countries? (I'll be cautious in making presumptions, given that FIFA is considered more powerful than the UN by some). 58.111.178.170 (talk) 16:27, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The rule is obviously harder to apply in a totalitarian society, but the idea is that the structure of the national football association should be independent from the government. For example, it cannot report to the Minister of Sports or another similar official. Of course even if it is independent on paper, there can still be interference from the governement in the association's affairs. In cases where such interference becomes public, FIFA has on a number of occasions decreed sanctions against the national team. Here are a couple of articles on recent cases of such sanctions: [57] and [58]. --Xuxl (talk) 09:08, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Sydney Deveraux's tattoo

Sydney Deveraux has a tattoo just below her left breast, a cursive script writing that says something like "You are the [...]". What does the rest of the tattoo say? JIP | Talk 18:08, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Shall we start with 'Just who is Sydney Deveraux'? I'm probably showing that I'm more out-of-touch than a High Court judge, but I've never heard of her. Google doesn't seem to, either. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 19:38, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I appear to have misspelled her first name, it's apparently spelled "Sydni". You can find a brief description about her here. JIP | Talk 19:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Ah, that helps! I found a large picture here, and I reckon it says 'I am the bitter, I am the sweet' (or possibly 'You are the bitter, I am the sweet'). See Bittersweet - pleasure and pain. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 19:59, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Great, thanks! I had a picture of her that also showed the tattoo, but the last part was in the shadow, so it was too hard to read. I can now confirm it says "You are the bitter, I am the sweet". It appears Wikipedia is a good way to find answers to even the strangest questions quite fast. =) JIP | Talk 20:07, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

No problem. It's not often I get a legitimate excuse for looking at enlarged pictures of ladies' funbags on the internet... - Cucumber Mike (talk) 20:58, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Mike: you count a refdesk question as a legitimate excuse? Would you like us to invent questions that you can only answer by browsing through lots of such pictures? – b_jonas 10:59, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

You need an excuse to get your rocks off on the internet, Mike? I pity you. Speaking of such matters, what's that cucumber all about? Is it so that people can ask "Is that a cucumber you've got in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?"  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like a deal to me, b_j! Whilst I'm vaguely aware of the range of opportunities for viewing lady parts online, it's nice to be able to tell myself "I'm only looking at this for research". And Jack, it would have been entirely childish, puerile and immature of me to select a username merely in order to set up the punchline to a knob gag, wouldn't it? So yes, that was the reason. Thanks for indulging me. I'll set 'em up, you nod 'em in. Fnar fnar. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 22:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Presumably all this research helps to keep your username in firm condition. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:18, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Ah, so that's why you use your cucumber as your handle. I was thinking you were a Veggie Tales fan: [59], but it turns out you're more into veggie tails.StuRat (talk) 22:28, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

February 22

control versus closure

There have been a lot of criticism toward Nick Rodwell. This is in regards to The Adventures of Tintin. Many Tintin fans say Nick Rodwell doesn't know a thing about controlling the estate of Hergé. Someone expressed that an authorized Tintin expert should finish up Tintin and Alph-Art, to give fans some closure. I totally agree with that fan. By any chance would Nick Rodwell read anything Tintin fans have to say?24.90.204.234 (talk) 08:03, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid you've mistaken this Reference desk for a chat forum. Do you have a factual question we can help you find references for? --Jayron32 22:41, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I went to Google and searched Nick Rodwell. He had a blog, but it was shuttered by many Tintin fans. There have also been many sources saying that those people expressed outcry over Nick Rodwell handling the Tintin brand and Hergé's estate.24.90.204.234 (talk) 02:58, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Salaries of two particular actors, if it is publicly known

It seems like sometimes how much someone gets paid to be in some show is known, and sometimes not. I'm wondering about the two young actors in the television show "How I Met Your Mother" who portray the future children of the narrator and pretty much just sit in front of the camera for a few minutes at the beginning of an episode staring blankly while the narrator "talks" to them. How much do those two get paid to sit there not memorizing any lines (or a sentence or two at most, I don't know, I've only seen the show a few times) and just have the faces they have? 20.137.18.53 (talk) 14:21, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Since you have only seen How I Met Your Mother a few times, it might be helpful to repeat the basic premise of the show, since it might clear up why these actors "stare blankly": It involves the main character, Ted, in the year 2030 recounting to his teenage son and daughter the events that led to his meeting their mother. Now when the show first aired in 2005, these future children had several lines in each of the early episodes of the series, and fully interacted with the narrator. The problem is that the show is now in its 7th year, and those teenage actors, in real life, have aged into adults since then. Since the narrator is supposedly telling this story all in the same year, 2030, the show's producers were forced to create a bunch of stock footage of these teenage actors. So any shots you see of the future kids in the more recent episodes are actually from the show's stock library of generic reactions shots taken back in 2005 or 2006. And they had to be generic shots because the writers and producers really did not know what kind of future episodes they were going to write back in 2006, or even 100 percent sure that the show would still be airing in 2012. Now as to whether these actors get paid each time this stock footage is used in these recent episodes, I cannot really answer that question. Zzyzx11 (talk) 05:08, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Description of an ad

Could somebody describe what's going on in this ad to me, since I can't see the video? Re: the music, though I like a lot of Joan Armatrading's songs, I didn't like this one in 1995 and it still doesn't really grab me. I think it was a bizarre choice of opening track for the Show Some Emotion album. But I'm curious to find out how the song relates to the visuals. Graham87 15:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The video shows animals in small cages. Someone removes a small beagle from one cage and begins walking down a corridor with it. In a few moments, the viewer sees the person is wearing a lab coat, suggesting that the animal is about to become the subject of some sort of lab test. The spot is a PSA in support of an organization called "Choose Cruelty Free," which apparently advocates for products that aren't tested on animals. --McDoobAU93 15:43, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks very much! Graham87 03:33, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Roadrunner and Wile E. Coyote cartoons

Which cartoon in this series had the Roadrunner driving a front engine dragster ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.31.4.21 (talk) 23:54, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The non–Chuck Jones effort Out and Out Rout had that. See Wile E. Coyote and Road Runner#List of cartoons. Deor (talk) 01:20, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

February 23

Is being Jewish that notable?

For instance this article talks a lot about Jon Stewart being Jewish. It’s impossible to watch The Daily Show without quickly divining that Stewart is Jewish. I've seen a lot of Daily Shows and it never occurred to me he was (and I couldn't care less about the fact itself btw). What's so special about Jews that "the American Public" (I guess) can't watch a show "without divining someone is Jewish"? He doesn't wear a Kippah and most of his lines must have been written by others. Joepnl (talk) 02:22, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't say notable so much as distinct. It's not quite as distinct as it used to be (especially due to gentile comedians adopting mannerisms and techniques introduced by Jewish comedians), but he's clearly not a Scottish Baptist or Irish Catholic. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:28, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

It may be even more notable when a comedian is not Jewish. StuRat (talk) 02:32, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Most comedians in The Netherlands are not Jewish (but maybe I should start checking that). What's a typical Jewish mannerism or technique? I really haven't got a clue, it sounds as if Jews obviously ride bikes completely different than non-Jews. Joepnl (talk) 02:38, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, there's putting everything into the form of a question, using Yiddish-derived words like klutz, and acting neurotic (like Woody Allen) or abused (like Rodney Dangerfield). StuRat (talk) 02:56, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that a Jew is Jewish with or without wearing a Kippah. But I agree with you that nothing about him seems Jewish. I never would have guessed he was Jewish. I must be an exception to the American public. That fact doesn't surprise me. Bus stop (talk) 02:43, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

The quote is about Jon Stewart and not Jews in general. He often mentions he is Jewish or makes it fairly clear by talking about Jewish family, his observance or non-observance of Jewish traditions, using Yiddish words, and so on. I'm surprised you haven't noticed this if you have seen a lot of shows. PrimeHunter (talk) 02:56, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I've only looked at it intermittently. I must have missed the more obvious references. You make a good point that the quote was only about Jon Stewart. The point is well-taken. I'm sorry if I was being strident. Bus stop (talk) 03:06, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I was replying to the OP who said "I've seen a lot of Daily Shows". PrimeHunter (talk) 03:38, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)For most of the 20th century, the American comedy scene was dominated by Jewish comedians. Here's an article by a Jewish comedy writer who discusses the sociological reasons for it. Basically, being a white minority gives them a different view of the world and causes some tension. Not always a bad tension in comparison to other parts of the world, but still a discomfort from being somewhat accepted but not fully integrated into Western society. Jewish theology places a special emphasis on retaining Jewish culture, but encourages trying to make the world a better place, so comedy is preferable to extremism.

In addition to that, Jewish culture historically encouraged study where Western culture encouraged brawn (be it warfare in the dark ages, or athletics in the modern era).

But again, it can be harder to spot these days since a number of non-Jewish comedians have been influenced by Jewish comedians, whether they want to or not. Even though I have never seen a Woody Allen movie, a teacher I had for a theatre class concluded my neurotic and nervous performance was based on Woody Allen.

Ah, and I see we have an article on Jewish humour. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:59, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

February 18

I and A R Standards

What does this stand for? I cannot find it anywhere. Should relate to elder care I believe. Thanks!75.85.146.70 (talk) 21:23, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Where? What's the context? HiLo48 (talk) 21:32, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

My best guess would be "Information and Assistance/Referral".--Itinerant1 (talk) 21:34, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Ignore 'n All Rules? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:15, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

LPS.

can you give imformation ON LPS matrixe numbers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.29.244.36 (talk) 22:48, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Our article on the matrix numbers used on LPs and other phonograph records is Matrix numbers. Red Act (talk) 00:29, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

February 19

Google satellite photo mystery

What is this large and somewhat luxurious-looking complex of buildings outside Nave Pargaon, India? Note the long, fancy driveway with two gates and the swimming pool in the courtyard of the north building. (Although it looks like the tennis courts haven't been used in some time.) -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:18, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I may be totally off the mark, but after a bit of googling around I'm fairly certain it's the Tatyasaheb Kore Institute of Engineering and Technology - the dome-shaped structure over the entrance and the statue in front of it seem to match, as does the curved line of trees along the park. They have a map on their website that matches the location of your mystery building almost exactly - 10km West of Wathat, just before the road goes North to Kodoli. -- Ferkelparade π 02:01, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Good guess, but if you zoom out a bid on the Google map, you can see the TKIET is actually marked on the map a couple kms west of the complex in question. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:17, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

As far as I can figure out, Tatyasaheb Kore and friends founded several schools, and this one I'm guessing is the Tatyasaheb Kore Military Academy (TKMA), as it has a tank and a couple of artillery pieces on the front lawn. Scroll halfway down for a picture. Precious little about it on the net. Captain Hindsight (talk) 08:07, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

This [60] claims it was founded by the government of Maharashtra. It seems this institute [61] also wasn't founded by Tatyasaheb Kore although he's listed as the leader. BTW, he's listed as a founder is of the Mahatma Gandhi Hospital. That article describes a bit of what he did and Vinay Kore also briefly mentions him but it sounds like there's no article about him on en. It sounds like he's particularly notable for founding and developing Warananagar/Warana in Maharashtra hence why many things in the area are named after him. Nil Einne (talk) 15:16, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

That looks spot on. --Mr.98 (talk) 15:17, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Wow, great job. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 16:03, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Arabic calendar to Gregorian calendar

What is 12 Rabi' al-awwal, 822 Hijriah, in the Gregorian calendar? Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:11, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

April 16th, 1419, a friday. --Omidinist (talk) 05:20, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• Cool, thanks. Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:06, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Though note that the Julian calendar was still universally used for another century and a half, as Gregorian was first implemented in 1582; April 16th Gregorian will have been April 7th Julian. Shimgray | talk | 20:41, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Is it really? You need to convert when both Julian and Gregorian are in use, but in 1419 there is only one April 16. Adam Bishop (talk) 10:46, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

• Huh? Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

As it's for an article, wouldn't it be preferable just to have Gregorian? Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:36, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Friday April 16th, 1419 is a Gregorian date, as confirmed in places like this. The question did ask for a date in the Gregorian calendar, so we seem to have satisfied our brief.

But that's not the whole story. This is a date not in the Gregorian calendar as such, but in the proleptic Gregorian calendar, the Gregorian calendar that would have applied back then if it had been invented 163 years earlier than it was, which it wasn't. People in the West at that time would have said the date was April 7th, 1419, according to the only calendar they had any knowledge of - the Julian. It makes almost no sense to convert the date to proleptic Gregorian April 16th; I can't imagine why anyone would want or need to know such an anachronistic piece of information. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 11:38, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah that's what I mean (er, that is, I should have said "April 7" above, but either way there was only one of each date). Unless you are setting the controls for your time machine, a proleptic calendar isn't very useful in this case. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:59, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

• This is for establishing a death date which the average reader will understand at an article in progress. Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:40, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The Manual of Style recommends using Julian dates when converting alternate stystems for pre-1582 events - see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Calendars:

Dates before the adoption of the Gregorian calendar on 15 October 1582 are normally given in the Julian calendar. The Julian day and month should not be converted to the Gregorian calendar, but the start of the Julian year should be assumed to be 1 January (see below for more details).

This is the usual practice in historical writing, and it's the one our readers are used to, even if they may not realise it - it's very rare for modern writers to retroactively "update" the dates to Gregorian, or to give a conversion outside of the period where both calendars were in use (usually 1582 to 1752 or 1918) Shimgray | talk | 13:48, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

It's very rare, because it would be very stupid and meaningless. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 00:10, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

• So it should be marked as being 7 April 1419? Any specific markup for indicating that it would be under the Julian calender? Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:49, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

There's no special notation - if you want to mention it, the best way would be to say "12 Rabi' al-awwal, 822 AH (7 April 1419 in the Julian calendar), and give just the date with no note for any subsequent conversion. Alternatively, it would be quite reasonable just to say "12 Rabi' al-awwal, 822 AH (7 April 1419)" without any additional commentary; Julian is implicit given the date. Shimgray | talk | 19:53, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

• I'd probably stick to the first suggestion, as the average Joe may not understand that Julian is implied. Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:23, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

• I fear you're overthinking this, Crisco. When we talk about Columbus setting out on his first voyage to the New World on 3 August 1492 (is that your year of birth, btw?), or any other major pre-1582 event, we don't feel any need to specify that the date is from the Julian calendar, mainly because there was no other option in Europe at the time. Anyone reading your article who's educated enough to know the Gregorian hasn't always been there, and to be wondering about which calendar the date came from, would immediately remind themselves the Gregorian calendar only commenced in the 16th century and so a date in 1419 must be Julian. Anyone who had little or no knowledge of the history of the calendar wouldn't be bothered in the slightest about the issue (probably wouldn't be reading the article in the first place, actually). -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 10:36, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Crisco, maybe this question will help clarify things: what information do you intend to convey by including a Western date? If you want the reader to understand where the Earth was relative to the Sun on that day in 1419, then you would use the (proleptic) Gregorian calendar. This is only meaningful in comparison with our current calendar, for astronomical measurements, for example if you wanted to know the positions of the stars and constellations on that date in 1419 you would have to correct it. Or, as I was joking before, if you want to calibrate the instruments in your time machine, to travel back to visit Ibrahim on his birthday. If you want the reader to understand what day people in Europe thought it was when Sunan Maulana Malik Ibrahim was born, then you just use the Julian calendar, no note or correction necessary. (Also, if you want to be really confused, remember that Easter in 1419 also started on April 16, which would have been the first day of the new year in some parts of Europe. The previous day would have been the last day of 1418. But we always ignore that too and retroactively make all years start on January 1.) Adam Bishop (talk) 12:53, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

• Nah, nothing so fancy. Just the subject's date of death. The inscription near his tomb gives the Arabic date, which is... useless for most English Wikipedia readers. As for the year of birth... that would explain any ear hair I find, methinks. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:27, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Making a video file from console play

I've seen many youtube videos showing the user of a games console playing the game and providing a running commentary on their play. How is this done, i.e. what hardware and connections are needed to create the video? Obviously I'm looking at a direct feed from the console here, not the lo-tech "point a video camera at the screen" option. Thanks. --Viennese Waltz 08:31, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Typically by plugging the console into a video capture card or (for older consoles) playing the games on an emulator and recording the emulator with screen capture software. Smurrayinchester 10:05, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Euphemism for menstruation

I've heard a girl's periods often being referred to as "chums" but I haven't gotten any online/dictionary verification. Is it a valid usage? 117.226.203.41 (talk) 15:10, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

According to the Urban Dictionary [62], it refers to a women menstruating in the sea (meaning 5), related presumably to chum as referring to sharkbait (meaning 1) - aren't people nice. Mikenorton (talk) 15:32, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

(e/c)English is non-prescriptive (unlike, say, Parisian French, which is regulated by the Académie française), so validity is in the ear of the hearer. I'm guessing it comes from the practice of "chumming", meaning to throw chunks of fish and fish entrails in the water to draw sportfish and sharks closer. Crude, but that's likely the point. Matt Deres (talk) 15:36, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

In female slang, I've heard periods referred to as all sorts of things but never as "chums". However, I have heard the phrase "my friend's visiting" to tip the wink to another woman as to what's going on. In English slang "chum" means friend (ISTR it's of Hindi origin), so that's possibly the derivation. --TammyMoet (talk) 15:45, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

It's amazing what you can learn from EO.[63] Be sure to read the entire thing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:14, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

That's interesting but no mention of the etymological similarity between cunt and Kent... --TammyMoet (talk) 18:55, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

How do cigarettes figure into the discussion? Unless this is the subliminal connection. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:16, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

"My friend's visiting" reminds me of an old Dilbert strip. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 19:55, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The South and their acceptance of a certain group of people

What is the likely outcome from having a single male Swede coming to the Deep South in the USA with no relatives or other excuse for being there except to "see the place"? A: "Git out, ye stinkin' foreigner! *shotgun blast* B: "Cool! We have lots of questions..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 22:53, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

"Ya'll ain't from 'round heer, are ya?" But in fairness, I get that just going from state to state within the southern US. You can expect pretty much the same reaction a single male Swede would expect traveling abroad elsewhere. — Lomn 23:10, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The thing is... I don't know how they would treat me elsewhere either. But I'm mostly interested in this particular place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 23:22, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• Depending on the social class, you would be treated with courtesy and manners. The only time Southerners tend to show their true feelings is when they say "bless (his/her/your) little heart". This means basically they think your an idiot but manners dictate that nothing will be said... Williamb (talk) 23:33, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Southerners are actually famed for their hospitality. I'm sure they'll be happy to have you. Just don't drive across Alabama with the words "NASCAR SUCKS" and "HILLARY FOR PRESIDENT" on your car like those guys on Top Gear. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:42, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The US is considerably more homogeneous than it used to be, and much more so than movies might suggest. Metropolitan and suburban places are disappointingly similar to one another the country over. Southerners, and Americans in general, pride themselves on being polite and hospitable to strangers (but really what country prides itself on being rude and inhospitable?). The same reasonable consideration you'd always make as a guest in someone else's country will suffice here too. Unless you do something obviously stupid, you're no more likely to be blasted by a shotgun wielding madman than an American tourist would be likely to be chased down Hamngatan by a guy with a battleaxe and a horned helmet. Just tell everyone their country is beautiful and marvel at their ability to withstand the humidity (neither of which will be a lie) and you'll do fine. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 23:48, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

"what country prides itself on being rude and inhospitable?" Germany? Ib30 (talk) 00:37, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Surely France, n'est-ce pas? Clarityfiend (talk) 03:04, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Gotta disagree with ya, CF. When you get away from Paris, the smaller towns love visitors, especially <airquote> ugly Americans </airquote>. There was a critic/writer who said something to the effect of "France is a lovely country to visit, if you exclude Paris. Paris is a wonderful city, if you exclude the Parisians". From my own visit there many MANY years ago, I can concur with that. --McDoobAU93 03:11, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I find that the problems with Paris are because it's a giant city, not because of the French people who live there...it's not really much different than Toronto, or London, or I suppose New York (although I've never been there). There are rude people, of course, but that's just because there are so many more people there in general compared to the rest of the country, so on average there are also more jerks. One stereotypical thing I've always heard, but which turns out to be true (in my experience), is that everyone in Paris is much nicer if you attempt to speak French to them first. If you just walk up to people and speak English, they might seem to react rudely because you were rude to them first, if that makes sense. But they're used to the tourists, so if you speak French to them and they recognize an accent, they'll probably switch to English right away if they can, and if they can't, they'll still appreciate that you tried. They're extremely proud about their language, and why shouldn't they be? It's no different than the US (or Canada, or the UK). Anyway, you're right about the rest of France, everyone is really curious about visitors. Outside of Paris hardly anyone speaks English, but they like to practise they few words they know! Adam Bishop (talk) 10:37, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

It used to be the Southerners would pretend to be nice to your face, then lynch you that night. Fortunately, I think that's mostly a thing of the past, although there still seems to be an "act friendly to everyone no matter how you really feel" attitude, that you won't find much, say, in New York City. StuRat (talk) 00:17, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

No, assuming you're talking about white Southerners, they'd not bother being nice to your face if they were the sort who would lynch you at night. Ex-slaves and their descendants were barely considered human beings, and certainly not worthy of respect or courtesy in common circumstances. A person of color could get killed simply for being inappropriately polite to the wrong person. The Dred Scott decision wasn't a fluke. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 00:51, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Blacks weren't the only ones lynched. Any "outsiders" were at risk, too, especially Jews from the North, who the Ku Klux Klan also despised. StuRat (talk) 00:57, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Depends a lot on the time period and the location. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 01:15, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Having lived in the South for the past 10 years, and having grown up in the North, you'll find that the South is actually a lot less stereotypically "Southern" than it is portrayed in movies and TV and such. Yes, there are NASCAR fans here, but mostly people aren't that different, and they are certainly as accepting (or not) of foreigners and outsiders as anywhere else in the U.S. When I grew up in New England, I pictured everyone from south of Pennsylvania slept with their cousins and wore white sheets and burned crosses for fun. I have been pleasently surprised that that isn't the case at all. A foreign national visiting the South is unlikely to run into any major issues. Just a side note, what is said above about "Bless your heart" is 100% true. If someone says that to you, you've just been cussed out. It isn't a compliment, it's the polite southern equivalent of the middle finger. --Jayron32 01:15, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Apparently, most people only have Mississippi Burning as their source of information about the South.

@StuRat: there was only one Jew lynched in the US ever: Leo Frank. Is that a reasonable risk? Ib30 (talk) 02:13, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Wrong. The murder of two more Jews were portrayed in Mississippi Burning, those being Michael Schwerner and Andrew Goodman. Lynching doesn't just mean hanging, you know. StuRat (talk) 02:28, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Wrong II: But murdering does not mean lynching. Those two guys were not lynched (even if, at the end the result is the same). Tell any Jew that the risk of being lynched in the South is almost non-existent.

Apparently, most people only have Mississippi Burning as their source of information about the South II.

Ib30 (talk) 02:34, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Well our Mississippi civil rights workers murders article says they were lynched. At least 2 sources [64] [65] [66] (same website) says likewise. At least 2 other sources mention lynchings [67] [68] however it isn't clear if they intend to imply these murders were lynchings. Subscription requirements means I didn't check all sources and it's possible I missed extra pages. (I also didn't check out any of the further reading etc.)

In any case, I'm not sure why you say their murders weren't lynchings. From what I can tell, their murders meets a common definition. E.g. our article mentions:

defined by some codes of law as "Any act of violence inflicted by a mob upon the body of another person which results in the death of the person," with a 'mob' being defined as "the assemblage of two or more persons, without color or authority of law, for the premeditated purpose and with the premeditated intent of committing an act of violence upon the person of another."

it seems clear that the murders here were committed by a mob upon the body of the people murdered with the premediated purpose and intent of violence upon the people murder. Are you confused by the lack of hanging? If so, our article suggests it isn't required. Or the fact that these people weren't targetted because of their ethinicty or race? If so, while this is relevent to the risk of a random Jewish person being lynched, it doesn't mean that these specific people weren't lynched. It seems clear they were targetted 'in order to punish an alleged transgressor, or to intimidate, control, or otherwise manipulate a population of people'.

Of course if you continue to dispute any of this, I suggest you take it up in the appropriate article/s. Although given the sourcing, it seems unlikely you'll have much success.

Nil Einne (talk) 12:39, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Just, wow. As someone who has spent the last 20 years working for extended periods(months at a time) all over the US and happen to live in the South when not on the road, the people of the south are no more offensive or unwelcoming than anyone else in tghe US, and actually quite a bit more polite and friendly than most. In fact, this whole question is kind of offensive. Imagine if asked if this Hostel (2005 film) film series accurately represented Europeans? Where I live is a big oil industry area, so we have Scots, Brits, Aussies, Irish, Canadians, various African nationalities, and many other foreign nationals in town all of the time. They are usually popular guys, fun to hang out with, and I've never seen anyone give them a hard time for being from somewhere else(except for some drunken good natured ribbing). Visit the South, its a great and fun place full of generally nice people. Heiro 02:41, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Totally agree ... I've lived in the American South all my life (lived no further north than Atlanta, my current home, and no further west than Birmingham) and have visited most of the other major regions of the country. While there are differences overall, there are also tons of similarities, both good and bad. If I might be so bold as to ask the OP (and hoping this doesn't turn any more into a forum than it already has), what is it that most interests you about this region? --McDoobAU93 02:54, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Well... just about everything about the place interests me. Everything from the way they speak to the culture/settings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 13:37, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Good old boys reacting to a group of Scandinavians: "They whiter than us! Uff-da!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:12, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Then again... I actually was in grandstand and watched this Danish guy run in the heats of the 800 metres at the 2000 Summer Olympics.--Shirt58 (talk) 07:34, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Agree with Heironymous Rowe. I don't think the South has any kind of market on idiotic xenophobia — there are plenty of places in New York, Massachusetts, and California where you could find considerable numbers of idiots (and I've lived in a few of said pockets! Even then, that sort of thing seems ridiculously rare). But on the whole my experience is that Southerners pride themselves on being genteel with outsiders. I might speculate that their main social problems lie not with being cruel to outsiders, but with regards to the people they are more familiar with. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:52, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm shocked by the tone in this question (and some of the other comments). I didn't think this kind of gross generalizing was openly acceptable. It's one thing to ask serious questions about safety in certain areas--of course there are parts of any place that could be dangerous: that's a fair question--but this unabashed play on offensive stereotypes is kind of shocking. Imagine if this was some other country, would the recitation of similar stereotypes be acceptable? Shadowjams (talk) 03:57, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

However: [69]. The Mark of the Beast (talk) 05:09, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Seriously? You're using a Huffington post blog post to justify some disgustingly inaccurate stereotypes? Would you vote as Alabama's legislature did? Probably not, but does that mean everyone in the south approaches you with a shotgun?!? Shadowjams (talk) 07:58, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm just reporting an event that occurred, as is the Post. The Mark of the Beast (talk) 21:47, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

February 20

Why aren't electrical panels waterproofed where flooding is a possibility?

I find it inexcusable that in the Fukushima nuclear disaster, there was not more protection for the electrical equipment in event of a tsunami. Likewise in the Costa Concordia disaster the cruise ship apparently lost all engine power a minute after being opened to the sea, preventing it from maneuvering. True, in that case maybe it saved a thousand lives by preventing the idiots in charge of the ship from sailing it far out to sea and instead leaving the wind to blow it to land It seems to me that electrical cables are generally well insulated, and while the equipment at the end of it might well be leaky, they should only short out circuit by circuit, leaving some better protected or better located circuits unaffected - if the central cabinet were simply waterproofed. Even an imperfect seal should prevent an outage for some minutes during a disaster. So why isn't this done?

Waterproofing stops water leaking into something, but it doesn't help deal with the immense force involved in a tsunami. Also, both the backup generators in Fukushima and the engines in the Costa Concordia worked by burning fuel - that requires oxygen. If they are underwater, they aren't going to work however watertight they are (and if you make them completely watertight, they would also be air tight and wouldn't work when they're not underwater either). --Tango (talk) 12:43, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

You wouldn't really expect a tsunami to occur really to be fair. Mrlittleirish 13:14, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

But Fukushima was designed with a high wall against tsunamis -- just not high enough. They could afford a few extra precautions. The force was probably only a few feet of water - not a full atm of pressure, I would presume, and I think of electrical cabinets being built rather sturdily. And while the engines and generators required air intakes, I'm skeptical that they sucked it in straight from the middle of the engine room or basement - I bet there was a shaft going somewhere, which could also be waterproofed. Even if that wasn't done, any battery backup at all would prevent a shutdown for some time. Wnt (talk) 15:56, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

It's not just the weight of the water, it's the speed it is moving with. You would need an incredibly large battery to run a nuclear cooling system for a useful length of time (the cooling system needs to run for several days after a SCRAM, at least, although I guess a few hours would give you time to get something else ready - even a few hours would take a ridiculously large battery, though). You might use batteries to power the pumps while you are waiting for the generators to get up to full power, but that's it. --Tango (talk) 18:01, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Wasn't the force of the tsunami was mostly taken by the concrete, with water only draining into the basement, rather than smashing through the walls ? Waterproofing is problematic though, because of the difficulty in testing it. Short of submerging the system in water periodically, how would you detect if leaks exist ? Placing all vital system above the possible waterline seems far more sensible. StuRat (talk) 19:31, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

That would be inefficient, though, since it would mean you had to pump the water you are using as a coolant up a significant height. --Tango (talk) 21:05, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

True, and you also lose any possibility of gravity-fed emergency seawater cooling (which, unfortunately, the reactor wasn't designed to take advantage of, in any case). Keeping all possible electrical system above the waterline would be a good compromise, with only the portions required near the reactor being below the waterline, and waterproofed as best as they can be. The diesel generators, for example, should all have been above the waterline. StuRat (talk) 21:25, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Monticello has a reactor of the same style. They have their generators buried and watertight. (no idea on how they get the oxygen to them.) The Dry Cask storage containers are stored above the 1000-year flood plain. Basically, plants of this style in the US have been repeatedly upgraded over the years...and Fukushima should have been. --Onorem♠Dil 22:00, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

http://pueblopolitics.com/2011/03/would-a-nuclear-power-plant-be-safe-in-pueblo-county/ - No idea on the accuracy of the page, but ties in nicely to the question. --Onorem♠Dil 22:14, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

(ec) The tsunami did damage the buildings (water reached 15 meters high[70]), knocked out the salt water cooling pumps, and caused two fatalities at the plant. Rmhermen (talk) 21:09, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

That just said the buildings were flooded, not smashed open by the force of the tsunami. For example, the phrase "completely submerging the facilities' doors" implies that the doors remained intact and attached. StuRat (talk) 21:20, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

As for waterproofing ship electrical systems, the lights on the Titanic stayed on for some 2.5 hours, almost until the final plunge (probably until the boilers failed). I wonder how they managed this feat ? Apparently, whoever designed the electrical system was far better prepared for a disaster than those who placed the inadequate number of lifeboats. Of course, the risk of electrocution must be balanced against the need to provide lighting needed for passengers to evacuate, and the need for intra-ship communications and to send distress signals. StuRat (talk) 21:30, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The electrical equipment was in basements at the Fukushima plant, which is problematic when it it that near the ocean, at low elevation above sea level. It was quite foreseeable that the basement might become flooded, and that the cooling pumps would be disabled as a result. Countermeasures could have included gasketed doors and backup power to large sump pumps, to prevent flooding of the basement electrical controls until the water level outside had dropped. Certainly the emergency diesels could have been placed on elevated concrete structures, or could have been placed on nearby higher ground. Alternatively, emergency control circuits for backup pumps could have been elevated or placed on higher ground. Within the electrical space, it would be feasible to have gaskets sealing the circuit breaker and relay panels, but relays and circuitbreakers generate heat in normal operation, and some provision for cooling the sealed panels might be needed when there is zero air circulation. If all wire chases or conduits were sealed, maintenance would be more expensive, when conductors had to be added. It would be an expensive proposition to adapt a control room so that it still worked when it was full to the ceiling with seawater. The better plan would be to avoid filling the control room with seawater. Edison (talk) 14:28, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

And the best way to ensure that is to put the control room above the waterline. StuRat (talk) 01:18, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

South American pesticide

Anyone can explain to me details regarding South American pesticide and the information on its current pesticide market? also any information regarding agricultural pesticides in South America would be great. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Warrenzy (talk • contribs) 09:46, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Welcome to the Wikipedia Reference Desk. Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misinterpretation, but it is our policy here not to do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn nearly as much as doing it yourself. Please attempt to solve the problem or answer the question yourself first. If you need help with a specific part of your homework, feel free to tell us where you are stuck and ask for help. If you need help grasping the concept of a problem, by all means let us know. Roger (talk) 10:53, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Special name for this?

Is there a special name for when a song changes drastically mid-way, like the tempo, pace mood and often the lyrics too? Examples;

[71] [72]

95.91.36.113 (talk) 11:38, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Are you referring to a bridge (music)?--Wehwalt (talk) 11:42, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

It depends on the exact type and the genre it happens in - it's a bridge if it happens in the middle, a coda if it happens at the end, a drop if it happens in techno or dubstep music, and so on. It's probably too varied to give it a general name. Smurrayinchester 14:12, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Buildings with many floors

To the best of my knowledge, the highest numbers of above/below-ground floors in a envisioned structure are 800 and 65, respectively. My questions:

1. Which envisioned structures have this numbers of above/below-ground floors?
2. Are there any envisioned structures with more above/below-ground floors?

--84.61.139.62 (talk) 15:03, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, the highest numbers of above/below-ground floors in a existing structure are 163 (or 209) and 10, respectively. My questions:

1. Which existing structures have this numbers of above/below-ground floors?
2. Are there any existing structures with more above/below-ground floors?

--84.61.139.62 (talk) 15:16, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The X-Seed 4000 would have 800 above-ground floors if ever built, and it took just a minute to find out. I'm kind of working so I'll let others continue. --Ouro (blah blah) 15:41, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

For existing tall buildings, see this article: List of tallest buildings in the world RudolfRed (talk) 18:45, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The remaining structures are in Mexico City, Dubai, and Istanbul, respectively. --84.61.139.62 (talk) 19:18, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

See Proposed tall buildings and structures. StuRat (talk) 19:21, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Earthscraper, Burj Khalifa, and Istanbul Sapphire, respectively. --84.61.139.62 (talk) 19:50, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

What did Johnny Rebel do between 1970 and 2001?

So apparently, he made all those catchy country songs in the 1960s, then did absolutely nothing for over 30 years, then made ONE song (about 9/11)... Isn't that pretty odd? What did he do for those 30 years? Was he in prison or something? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 15:36, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

That's not all that rare of a pattern. Musicians frequently get burnt out and do something else for many years, then, late in their life, possibly low on cash, they try for a come-back. StuRat (talk) 19:23, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I can't tell if this is trolling or not, but the "catchy country songs" of Johnny Rebel (singer) were apparently pro-KKK songs. --Mr.98 (talk) 00:23, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, obviously it must be "trolling" since "catchy country songs" cannot possibly be catchy and country songs if they are pro-KKK. And we all know that "trolling" means "anything that isn't exactly like my stupid, worthless mind wants it to be". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 01:42, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Maybe Mr.98 didn't assume good faith, but that reaction was uncalled for. Vespine (talk) 04:54, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I will go on the record that I think referring to blatantly, disturbing racist songs as "catchy country songs" without any qualification looks like trolling to me, if it wasn't meant to be ironic, which is apparently the case. I don't have any problem with people asking about racists, of course, but I thought it might be worth pointing out that this was an unusual case. --Mr.98 (talk) 13:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Considering the history of Mr. Rebel himself on Wikipedia, one might want to question the initial question. The Mark of the Beast (talk) 05:10, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Huh? That's all I can reply to this. What on Earth do you mean? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 16:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I think TMotB is suggesting Johnny Rebel has a history of editing wikipedia. I'm not sure if there is clear cut evidence for this. Someone has been persistently spamming sites to buy Johnny Rebel CDs and also official sites associated with Johnny Rebel but I don't know for sure if it's JR. Of course if Johnny Rebel had persistently tried to use wikipedia to promote himself in the past, people wouldn't be surprised if it happens again. Nil Einne (talk) 22:42, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

People's classification of the US

Why is everytime somebody talks about America, whether to bash, praise or whatever, they're always referring to the US? Like, for example, a guy from Virginia or Florida goes to Canada, Mexico, or somewhere overseas like the UK or Australia, He is automatically address as an American instead of a US citizen or something more specific. This doesn't make any sense to me as is was my understanding that America was a continent and the US, Canada, Mexico, and everything below were nations.

Even when talks about illegal immigration, you'll hear things from US residents like "this is America, we speak English" or "Mexicans aren't Americans". So why is the generalization, that America only consists of the United States? Sarujo (talk) 15:44, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but that's the way it is. It is not intended as some kind of marginalisation of other nations. People from Canada are Canadians, people from Mexico are Mexicans, people from South America are Brazilians, Argentinians, Peruvians, etc. or maybe South Americans, and people from the United States of America are Americans. See the articles: Demonym and Exonym and endonym for the linguistic details. Astronaut (talk) 16:00, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

It's just easier to say Americans than it is to say United Statesians, I suppose?--WaltCip (talk) 16:02, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The demonym article directly discusses this problem in Demonym#Cultural problems ... the two paragraphs starting with "The demonym for citizens of the United States of America suffers a similar problem..." Astronaut (talk) 16:05, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Calling people from the United States Americans in English is just a convention, or a commonly accepted thing. It probably came to be because, at least since about 1900, the United States has had far more influence and cultural presence in other English-speaking countries than any other country in the Americas. Thus, American became an easy shorthand for from the United States, since English speakers (except Canadians) had reason to refer to the United States far more often than any other country in the Americas. The other countries were the exception, to be referred to by their individual names, and they weren't seen as having much in common with "America" other than location. Canada is an interesting exception. Canadians do not generally object to calling things from the United States American even though they have just as much reason to feel slighted by the usage as Latin Americans. Perhaps the reason that Canadians have almost never called themselves American is because of that term's association with the neighbor to the south; Canadians wanted a distinct identity. Latin Americans probably object because the term America in Spanish refers to the entire Western Hemisphere. However, the same word can mean different things in two different languages, and that is the case here. It doesn't do much good to take offense. Marco polo (talk) 17:07, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Simple summary. We're using English. It's often not logical. HiLo48 (talk) 19:57, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Because we consider the name of our country to be America and United States to be the form of government. We do not refer to Federal Republicans (Germans) or United Statesians (Mexicans) Rmhermen (talk) 20:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

...or the Ukish. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:41, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The basic problem is that the US has no name of it's own, which is distinct from it's form of government (United States, which other nations also share) and continent (America, which many nations share). To make it unique, you need to say United States of America, and United States of American or USAian just don't flow. The US is sometimes referred to poetically as "Columbia", but calling people Columbians would cause massive confusion with Colombia. StuRat (talk) 21:14, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The issue goes deeper than just "Why are only this one country's people called Americans when that term could validly apply to anyone in North, Central and South America?". The question really should be "Why did they name this country United States of America in the first place, when the word America was already in use to refer to a much larger land mass?". But they did give it that name, and given that fact, what would be a better name for its people than "Americans"?

If Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Thailand and Burma were to unite into a single nation called the "United States of Asia", there might be case for calling its people "Asians". In that case, though, there'd be ample scope for confusion since "Asian" normally refers to the entire continent of Asia. But "American" does NOT normally refer to the entire New World, unless the context dictates. If someone said "I'm an American", nobody would wonder if they were from Argentina, Guatemala, Canada, the USA or wherever else in the Americas. No, everybody would assume they meant the United States of America. Hence, there is no confusion - not in the English language. There may be confusion in Spanish or other languages, and they have to sort out that issue in their own way. But to apply that solution to English would be a case of fixing something that ain't broke. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 23:49, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

And "Asian" has other problems, too. Are Israelis "Asians" ? StuRat (talk) 00:00, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The "Holy Land" was once called "The Orient," as in the Oriental Institute. So perhaps Israelis could be called "orientals." Edison (talk) 14:13, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Citizens of the United States of America are Americans. Citizens of the United States of Mexico are Mexicans. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

There are unofficial names used internationally to refer to people from the USA. Some Yanks may find these offensive, but usually they are not intended as such.-gadfium 00:21, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Weirdly enough I find the fuller version of the rhyming slang to be less offensive than the Australian contraction thereof. I consider them both to be slurs though. Fifelfoo (talk) 00:23, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Please explain. I can take it. I'm just a dumb Yank. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:06, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Yank => Septic Tank => Septic / Seppo / Sep. Septic isn't diminished, whereas seppo is. To my mind seppo just has more hate in it. Sep (singular) or Seps (collective) also makes sense. Tends, at least to my understanding, to only be applied to participants in the dominant culture in the USA, or that culture collectively. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:02, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Funny. You probably don't want to know what we call Brits. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

"Reliable allies"? --Dweller (talk) 18:44, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

What's annoying about foreigners' use of "Yank" or "yanqui" is that in America, a "Yankee" is a Northeasterner. Calling someone from Alabama a "Yankee" is like calling someone from Cornwall a Scot. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:53, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Or from Yankee Stadium. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:06, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Not particularly in the case of the rhyming slang, as it relates less to internal US geography, and more to the perceived qualities of States Uniteders in 1942. Fifelfoo (talk) 07:07, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

This isn't exactly unusual though - non-British people often use 'British' and 'English' as synonyms, and non-Dutch people often use 'the Netherlands' and 'Holland' as synonyms. If a region of a country is particularly prominent, it is unsurprising that foreigners will confuse one for the other. Often, the inhabitants of the country end up doing so too (think how many modern countries derive their name from that of a much smaller region, or even from an entirely different part of the world). 130.88.73.65 (talk) 16:09, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think anyone has yet linked in this discussion to the article about the subject: American (word).-gadfium 00:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

And even more appropriate: Names for United States citizens.-gadfium 00:29, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Also because we were Americans before the United States existed. Shadowjams (talk) 03:50, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

In Names on the Land George R. Stewart suggests that the US might have ended up with a better name during the Constitutional Convention, but: "There seems to be some kind of unimaginative quality in statesmen which makes them think that a name should describe, even at the expense of being awkward. Of the two chief men who might have argued for a better name, Franklin...was no longer vigorous, and Jefferson was in France." He goes on to say that there was some agitation for the adoption of "Columbia" around 1800, along with a few others—Washington Irving proposed "Appalachia" or "Alleghania". The Columbia effort resulted in that name being used for a number of counties, towns, cities, and a major river (via a ship's name), but "after 1819 Columbus was associated with a region in South America, and was no longer available as a national name". Stewart sums all this up by saying: "The makeshift establishment of the national name was the worst misfortune in our whole naming-history. Its too great length has consumed paper, ink, time, and energy. Its vagueness and inaccuracy have caused incalcuable misunderstanding, and bad feeling. Yet the trouble has never been acute enough to occasion an amendment to the Constitution..." Pfly (talk) 07:16, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't know, but I suspect it must go back to pre-independence, when there was no U.S. but there were the American colonies and British American colonists. I thought "americano" in Spanish was properly general, but Wiktionary doesn't agree with my recollection. Wnt (talk) 10:15, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

:::We could always take up GWB's practice, and refer to US citizens as 'Merkins' ;-) AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:29, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

That's sort of the opposite of calling them Yanks. If you call them Merkins, you are intending to insult them, but they won't be offended and will probably compliment you on your good grasp of English.-gadfium 20:52, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

If anyone ever says "A penny for your thoughts", you can respond with "A merkin for your quim". They'll probably thank you.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 23:54, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Please amend Dr. Michael Aris's birthday.

Dear Sir/Madame,

How are you? I wish you are well and happy. Permit me to introduce myself. My name is Myint Kywe. My pen name is Myoma Myint Kywe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myoma_Myint_Kywe

I saw Dr. Michael Aris's biography in en.wikipedia.org who was husband of Burmese famous politician Daw Aung San Suu Kyi. I saw his birthday was 1 January 1937. But in following websites, I saw that Dr. Michael Aris's birthday is on 27.March.1946.

http://www.topyaps.com/top-10-people-who-died-on-their-birthday/

http://cdburma.tripod.com/Files/memorial.html

http://marriage.about.com/od/politics/p/Michael-Aris-And-Aung-San-Suu-Kyi-Marriage-Profile.htm

http://www.burmafund.org/Pathfinders/news/michael_aris.htm

http://www.ibiblio.org/obl/reg.burma/archives/199903/msg00531.html

I respect Dr. Michael Aris very much and I am very appreciate Daw Aung San Suu Kyi's family.

Please can you amend true date of birth of Dr. Michael Aris?

Thanking you in anticipation. Thank you very much, Wikipedia!

Sincerely yours,

Myoma Myint Kywe

Burmese Writer and historian

61.90.93.237 (talk) 17:36, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Looking at Michael Aris, it arose from this apparent vandalism by an IP which I have reverted. However I have not used any of your sources as they don't seem reliable. The good thing is the external links (formerly) used in the article support the claim he died on his 53rd birthday which gives the date you suggested so I have used them as sources. In future, I suggest you ask these sort of question at WP:Help desk or use the article talk page Nil Einne (talk) 18:08, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Country versus Rock 'n roll?

In one episode of South Park, country (the music genre) and rock 'n roll are put against each other to represent "the conservatives" and "the liberals". But I thought that "the South" liked rock 'n roll even back in the days when it was a new genre, and it was played alongside of country and never was an "either you're with us or you're against us" kind of thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 23:02, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The history of the two genres is hopelessly complicated and isn't a black-and-white as a satire like South Park makes it out to be. Early rock-and-roll borrowed heavily from country music, and there was, has been, is, and probably always will be significant cross-over between the two genres. Take Ray Charles, who released the landmark album Modern Sounds in Country and Western Music which is considered one of the best albums ever made. Consider such genres as country-rock and southern rock with bands like The Eagles and Poco and Lynyrd Skynyrd and the Allman Brothers Band which blur the lines. Darius Rucker has a solo career as a country artist after leading the pop-rock band Hootie and the Blowfish. John Doe has a solo career as a country artist after leading the seminal LA punk band X. Garth Brooks began in rock music before transitioning to country (lets ignore the disaterous Chris Gaines fiasco). Eric Clapton loved country ("Bell Bottom Blues", "Lay Down Sally", etc.), as did Bob Dylan (Nashville Skyline). Both Elvis Presley and Johnny Cash are considered pioneers of both forms of music.

The political angle played up by South Park comes from the fact that Country music has an image of having a greater following in the Southern and Midwestern U.S., while Rock music is more associated with "the coasts"; roughly the same division that exists between "Red states" and "Blue States". Still, you get rock bands from the South, and not just southern rock (i.e. Pantera from Texas and Louisiana, 3 Doors Down from Mississippi), you get Country artists from the North and California, and even outside of the U.S. (Eddie Rabbit was from Brooklyn, Lee Greenwood is from California, Shania Twain is Canadian, Keith Urban is Australian). Lionel Richie had a productive song-writing partnership with Kenny Rogers. I could go on and on. Divisions between musical genres are much stronger among fans than among musicians, and you will find a lot more musicians which "cross over" between genres than fans that do, and politics knows no musical boundaries. Rock act Ted Nugent is a professed "conservative" (by the American definition) and country act The Dixie Chicks have been noted for taking "liberal" (by the American definition) political views. --Jayron32 23:21, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

South Park is often not a reliable source. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:32, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Trudat. --Jayron32 04:40, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The OP should listen to Brenda Lee's oft-played "Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree" and tell us whether it's more "rock and roll" or more "country". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:10, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I would disagree that the "country:rock :: conservatives:liberals" analogy is about territory. I would think that the association of country with conservatism and of rock with liberalism (or non-conservatism) is not region-dependent. The Allman Brothers were big backers of Jimmy Carter, for instance. Lynyrd Skynyrd -- the original Lynyrd Skynyrd -- wrote a song promoting gun control. It's just that country music is more popular with rural people and Southerners, who also happen to tend to be conservative. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:12, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Note that genres like rockabilly combine the two. StuRat (talk) 00:16, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

See also Jerry Lee Lewis. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:06, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

It's also about race: country music is almost exclusively white, while founders of rock and roll were either black like Fats Domino, Little Richard, Ike Turner, or sounded black like Elvis Presley, and rock derived largely from black music like blues and jazz (although it also derived from country/bluegrass/folk/etc, rock obviously sounds less like country than country sounds like country, and even country now sounds "whiter" than in the 1940s and 1950s when jazz-inluenced genres like Western swing were big). --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:51, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Let's not forget Charley Pride and Pat Boone. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:23, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

best Pat Boone album ever. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:21, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

February 21

famous painters

who is Connie weiss? I got a painting of hers and I can't find any info about her. thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.102.194.136 (talk) 01:07, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Is this the Connie Weiss you mean? Bielle (talk) 02:54, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Illegal Money Laundering.

Why don´t governments refresh their currencies more frequently to frustrate money launderers. I recall when the Euro was being introduced that the amount of Mafioso Lira that were exchanged in advance in return for foreign hotels and other property at knock-down prices was simply amazing, some stories I heard were hotels in Spain were changing hands at a Lira exchange rate of 40% or less? 83.49.81.35 (talk) 01:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Calling in a currency is a tremendous bother and decreases confidence in it. Keep in mind what you are saying is the money not turned in becomes valueless. It is not worth doing for the sake of annoying a few Mafiosos. By the way, all legacy currency banknotes valid on 1 January 2002 remained valid for at least ten years. I turned in around 20,000 lire in Milan a few years ago.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:21, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Not least because lots of money laundering isn't done with cash at all. It's often not guys with briefcases full of money, but offshore bank accounts, cash businesses with difficult-to-verify cashflows (which turn illegitimate cash into untraceable legal turnover), wire transfers through holding companies in uncooperative jurisdictions, and dodgy business deals and property purchases. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 01:22, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Generally, withdrawal of currency takes place when there is a change of currency, i.e., when France went from the old franc to the new franc and subsequently to the euro. US currency is valid back into the 19th century and all Bank of England notes from whenever are redeemable (I've redeemed ten shilling notes there, in poor enough condition that there is no premium); though the ones that were counterfeited may need to be authenticated. Historically, they withdrew Military Payment Certificates on short notice to prevent them from being used as currency offbase, there's an episode of MASH on the subject.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:28, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I think the questioner is asking more about replacing series of banknotes rather than the wholesale withdrawal of a currency, to which I would say that the answer is that it's simply too much trouble to replace a series of notes more frequently than every 10-20 years on average. For example, the Bank of England has just started replacing the £50 notes which were introduced in 1994 (which replaced the previous notes which were current between 1981 and 1996); there's usually a period of a few years when both the old and new notes circulate - though the Bank of England is fairly unusual in that it will redeem all notes ever issued, back to 1695, at face value. Even as respected a currency as the Swiss franc regularly makes its banknotes valueless, though after a long gap; I first visited the country in 1984, and the sixth series notes from 1975 which I used then were replaced between 1995-1998 and lose all their value in 2020 - though our article says there are still around 130 million francs worth of 500-franc notes of this series which haven't been turned in yet. When the fifth-series notes (from 1956) were demonetised in 2000, there were still over 244 million francs of notes out in the wild. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 00:12, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Most money is not on paper, just electronic. And there was no need to hurry for exchanging old European currencies for the Euro, since the old currencies can, even today, be exchanged for Euros. XPPaul (talk) 16:39, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

This is NOT the case - some pre-Euro currencies' notes will remain exchangeable for Euros forever (e.g. Irish pound, Deutschemark, Austrian Schilling); Dutch guilder notes will be exchangeable until 2032; Portuguese escudo notes will be exchangeable until February 2022; Italian lire notes ceased to have any value in December 2011; French franc banknotes ceased to have value last week - 17 February 2012. Most countries' coins are already non-exchangeable. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 18:15, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I ask myself what would happen with the exchange of those still valid currencies if the euro falls apart. Would you be able to exchange your old currency into euro or only into the new currency of a expelled state? 88.14.192.178 (talk) 01:26, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

kitchen

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?q=japanese+open+kitchen&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1352&bih=551&tbm=isch&tbnid=saTrpMhVRk_VGM:&imgrefurl=http://www.foodpoi.com/2009/12/la-yosh-japanese-food-with-a-french-touch/&docid=xMT2nV7vBAlpvM&imgurl=http://www.foodpoi.com/wp-content/gallery/la-yosh/open-kitchen.jpg&w=500&h=333&ei=PSdDT637AZGTiQetlrzpCQ&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=70&sig=111311402077669407932&page=1&tbnh=106&tbnw=141&start=0&ndsp=21&ved=0CEcQrQMwAQ&tx=117&ty=34

hi that world be classed as a open kitchen right thanks for the help if someone replys — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.165.233.148 (talk) 05:16, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that kitchen looks open to me. In my book any kitchen that is open to view by the customers is an open kitchen. Richard Avery (talk) 08:29, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Creative Commons 3.0 vs 2.0

Flickr does not have an option to license a photo under Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License. The License section at the right-hand side of a photo only allows a photo to be licensed under Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 Generic (CC BY-SA 2.0). But in some examples, such as in this photo, the photographer has licensed their photo under both versions of CC license. I want to know how is it possible to copyright a single photo under both CC 2.0 and CC 3.0 licenses? --SupernovaExplosion ^Talk 05:18, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

If you own the copyright, you can licence the work however you want, including licencing it under multiple licences (not legal advice, of course). RudolfRed (talk) 06:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Jesus Christ life

DID JESUS CHRIST HAD A WIFE? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.134.102.105 (talk) 09:32, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Mary Magdalene? --SupernovaExplosion ^Talk 13:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

General consensus (leaving aside the Christ-as-a-Myth component) is "no". Among dissenters, Mary Magdalene is probably the most common proposed wife. — Lomn 14:05, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Unless you consider nuns to be brides of Christ. -- Q Chris (talk) 14:52, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, we're well into the metaphorical at that point (and it would probably be more direct to note that the church collectively is referenced as the Bride of Christ). — Lomn 15:09, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

There is nothing in the Bible stating that He had a wife. The dangerous nature of His mission might have precluded getting married. Just like with Pony Express riders. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:43, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm still grappling with the conflict between the header and the question. Is it about his life or his wife? He had a life but is said to have given it up for the salvation of mankind, so that they might all have eternal life. So, it's not "get a life" so much as "get an eternal life". -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 07:51, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

"Just like with Pony Express riders" that is so funny, I think one of your best Bugs. Richard Avery (talk) 08:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

... the conflict between the header and the question ... You're not married are you. :-) Mitch Ames (talk) 13:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Poem makes no sense to me

Is this poem supposed to make any sense? It sure doesn't to me. =_=" Can anyone explain why it sounds to queer and is written with such queer punctuation and arrangment? http://www.poetry-archive.com/c/in_just.html 117.227.35.93 (talk) 18:23, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Our article, E._E._Cummings has some information in various places about his odd style of writing. You may wish to expand your range of adjectives, if you're studying poetry. You've used "queer" twice, and we can't tell if you mean "homosexual" or "odd". If the latter, it's a queer choice of words. If the former, the section on Cummings' marriages will tell you that you're incorrect. --Dweller (talk) 18:34, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

"Queer" is in the poem. I think older people always seem queer to younger people. Bus stop (talk) 00:59, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) See E.e._cummings#Poetry. --Mr.98 (talk) 18:35, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Metre (poetry) may help: In poetry, metre (meter in American English) is the basic rhythmic structure of a verse or lines in verse. Though I can't discern any pattern of rhyme in the linked poem "in Just- by: e.e. cummings (1894-1962)". See also Jabberwocky. - 220 of ^Borg 18:42, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I am really out of my depth here, as I have no expertise in poetry, but poetry does not always operate on a logical, rational plane. Modern poetry in particular does not always "make sense" in a strictly logical way. It is often meant to evoke a feeling or a state of mind. I think that is the case here. I think Cummings is trying to evoke children's experience of springtime. Marco polo (talk) 19:22, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

As for his use of punctuation, spacing, etc., I think it's mostly just "weird for weirdness sake". Perhaps running together the names of "Eddie and Bill" is to show they are close friends who like to play marbles and pirates together, and "Betty and Isabel" are close friends who like to play hop-scotch and jump-rope. The description of the "baloonman" is a bit trickier. The way they change the description each time makes me think that different kids perceive him differently. I assume he sells balloons to children, as ice cream men do these days. StuRat (talk) 19:38, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

For an example of highly-intelligent sounding but nonsense poetry, you might find A Classic Ode intriguing. See WP:BOLLOCKS. 58.111.178.170 (talk) 20:26, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

This reminds me of the Beatles song I am the Walrus, when John Lennon, having heard how much effort people put into analysing Beatles lyrics and finding hidden messages in them, decided to purposefully write as weird and nonsensical lyrics as possible. JIP | Talk 20:30, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's his point, though in all of cummings' work, playing with what the idea of poetry ought to be seems fairly implicit. Most modern poets, in my meager experience, are more concerned with how the words sound than what their strict meaning is. But I'm very much not a poetry buff or fan, so I could be very well quite wrong on this. But I think writing a poem (at least in its modern idiom) is generally speaking not an attempt to get across a whole lot of semantic meaning or information, and is usually an attempt to evoke emotions in the reader, which is a pretty different sort of endeavor. --Mr.98 (talk) 21:28, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

It makes sense. It evokes springtime. It includes characters both old and young. Emphasis is placed on companionship. Frivolousness is evoked. In form it breaks convention, not being written properly, but the elements are there of a moment in time where lives intersect and where lives do not intersect but have the potential to intersect. There is no description of any interior (indoor) space—this is the outdoors, which is experienced most strongly when emerging from the indoors in the spring. Mud and puddles are present. The older "balloon-man" is "lame" and "goat-footed". But by occupation he is related to the games of the two pairs of opposite-gendered younger people. It is just an evocation of a situation that can occur annually. Bus stop (talk) 22:11, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Not only did we have to read that poem in junior high, they even played us a tape of cummings reciting it, and even he sounded like he thought it was kind of weird. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:40, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Here it is. Bus stop (talk) 00:56, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

See Free verse. --TammyMoet (talk) 22:08, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

To just add some detail, "wee" is a play on words, I think. Following on from "far and," you can't but hear "...wide" coming. One letter is enough, but a vowel sound left trailing sounds like an evocation of the word "wide" just left unfinished. Then it is interrupted and it clearly represents we ( inclusive?), that is, we and those other dudes mentioned next. Then at the end, the reader having already been tripped twice, and alerted to the awkward parsing of the words, the simpler meaning, unfinished "wide," runs off into thin air. I think the contrast (punning use and free use), and the unexpectedness at the end, is meant to strengthen the effect of "wee" and make it linger. Just a theory. IBE (talk) 19:20, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Help!

I just deleted my google account 5 minutes back and then remembered I had some really important mails in there that I forgot to forward to my other mail inbox. Is there anyway I revert the change or get my data back??!! 117.227.35.93 (talk) 18:32, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

You might be able to follow these instructions, if you're quick. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 18:36, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks a bunch! That worked. :) I'm so glad. 117.226.178.231 (talk) 19:00, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Movie clip?

Apparently, this: http://media.photobucket.com/image/harry%20potter/Dim94/harry_potter.jpg?o= is a screenshot of the movie. But I get the feeling it's photoshopped. Can anyone verify? The sites where this crops up says nothing in particular. And I can't locate which scene this was taken from in the original movie... 117.226.178.231 (talk) 19:38, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

It's from Goblet of Fire and is photoshopped of course. Here is the original image (large file).--Cam (talk) 03:56, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Yep, Harry Potter's arm would have to be broken to look like that. StuRat (talk) 04:31, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Or perhaps somebody just removed them. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:04, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

How many people are watching this particular page a day?

I have no idea at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 23:22, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, 1,840 registered editors have this page on their watchlist. That doesn't include the perhaps many others who (like me) just wander by occasionally. Deor (talk) 23:59, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Enough to remove your stupid questions some of the time, but not enough to remove them all of the time? Adam Bishop (talk) 00:01, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

If you're interested in the actual daily page views, see http://stats.grok.se/en/latest/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous. Reach Out to the Truth 00:39, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Note that page views are very different than unique visitors, especially on a participatory page like this (where I necessarily view it twice every time I write something in). My guess is less than 100 unique visitors account for those stats, but I don't really know. It is not hard to imagine that the hardcore Ref Deskers view this page at least 10 times a day. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:36, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

February 22

Why are casinos and slot machines and all that illegal in so many places?

Of all the things to make illegal, why is gambling one? Especially since alcohol is usually allowed everywhere, which must be far worse. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xcvxvbxcdxcvbd (talk • contribs) 02:10, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

See the article Blue law. Doesn't exactly answer your question, but may be informative. Quinn ^{░ RAIN} 02:30, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

See Effects of Casino Gambling on Crime and Quality of Life in New Casino Jurisdictions(pdf), Casinos, Crime, and Community costs(pdf). A quick google search on "effect of casino on community" will give you many similar results. Royor (talk) 02:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

"Situations defined as real are real in their consequences." The fact that citizens believe crime has risen and that the rise is in some way due to the casino presence is important. (first pdf, p92). The second pdf concluded that the effect on crime is low shortly after a casino opens, and grows over time,(p1) (and in the long run) casinos increased all crimes except murder (p17). So to answer your question: gambling is illegal in some places because of the negative perception (whether real or not) and the very real long term social cost. As to alcohol, look at the US Prohibition - they tried it, didn't work. Royor (talk) 04:14, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Casinos have also historically offered almost unlimited possibilities for money laundering (almost all cash transactions, lots of room for "skim", hard to follow for tax purposes), which is why they have been so appealing to organized crime in the past. --Mr.98 (talk) 03:05, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Gambling can be every bit as addictive (and bankrupting) as drugs and alcohol. They tried banning alcohol. That didn't work. But it's regulated, as are drugs and alcohol. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:24, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

There are classed aspects to the selective banning of gambling. Totalisers have been state monopolies at times, illegal Starting Price bookmaking has been both a proletarian, and criminal, tradition. Lotteries are regularly run as state monopolies, occasionally even with the money generated ear marked for "public goods," such as the use of part of the UK lotteries to partly fund films. In other places such lotteries are used for consolidated revenue. Poker-machines used to be limited in NSW to clubs, as clubs were a system of semi-communal places. These days they're legal in pubs and clubs, and clubs and club alcohol licencing are as closely related to their social ancestor as the RSL is to a returned soldiers association. Fifelfoo (talk) 03:34, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Originally they were illegal because of the harm they caused to society. After all, unlike farming or manufacturing, they don't create any wealth, they just take it from some (mainly the poor gamblers) and give it to others (mainly the rich casino owners). However, in recent years, governments ceased to care about the harm to society, and now are mainly concerned with getting their "piece of the action". Thus, they legalize forms of gambling where they will profit the most, and keep other forms illegal. I like to call lottery tickets "paying your stupidity tax". StuRat (talk) 04:22, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Even though I agree with the sentiment I have to put up a ^{[citation needed]} Royor (talk) 04:36, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

There is definitely a common perception...or a stereotype...associated with customers/operators of casinos as being "undesirables." The mafia/money laundering aspect was mentioned in an above post, but there is also a popular belief by some that casinos/gambling/lotteries are, at the core, akin to a tax on the poor and/or uneducated (basically, highly-susceptible) people looking to get rich quick. Also of interest is that, in many cases lawmakers tend to "find reasons" or loopholes to legitimize gambling, because some of the positive aspects of casinos include job creation and increased tax revenue. In Mississippi for example, for a long time casinos were only allowed on Native American reservations, being that they were "outside of" the State's purview. Then riverboat gambling on navigable water ways was permitted, which eventually turned into casinos being built adjacent to waterways with a ditch (commonly called a moat) dug around them, to fulfill the "over water" requirement. Now, after Hurricane Katrina, Casinos are permitted to be built on land, but within a certain proximity of waterways, due to safety concerns (many water-based casinos were swept away during Katrina, most notably one- I thing the Beau Rivage- that "rolled over" on top of Hwy 90 in the storm surge). Quinn ^{░ RAIN} 04:41, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like God doesn't want them to gamble. :-) Which reminds me, I believe there are also religious objections to gambling. Having people hoping to get rich by gambling instead of working is definitely counter to the Puritan work ethic, for example.

Economists would also argue that "gambling" on the stock market is better for the nation, in that it provides positive rate of return (versus casinos) and also provides capital for corporations. But governments prefer gambling on the lottery, because the tax rate is higher. StuRat (talk) 05:11, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I question your premise. Is gambling completely (or almost completely) banned in significantly more countries than alcohol is completely (or almost completely) banned? Most countries regulate and license gambling in the same way as they regulate and license the sale of alcohol. --Tango (talk) 12:39, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Texas

I have heard that Texas has a provision in its State Constitution (or some such governing document) that allows for it to be divided into multiple, smaller states. Tue or myth? If true, what are the details? Has it ever been considered? Is this unique to Texas? (I read the article on Texas and didn't see anything about this, but its a rather large article, and I may have missed it.) Thanks! Quinn ^{░ RAIN} 02:26, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It is true. I think it is unique to Texas. See here [73] and here [74] RudolfRed (talk) 02:40, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Not to get off subject here, but the first link (Snopes) mentions that the "right to secede from the Union" is a myth. I had always took that to be fact, and much more "common knowledge" than the provision to divide into five states. Didn't Rick Perry mention something about Texas being able to secede in one of the debates (of course, that was Rick Perry...his grasp of governmental workings is not exactly one of his strong suits.):) Quinn ^{░ RAIN} 04:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Just because there is no mechanism set up to allow for secession doesn't mean it's prohibited. I imagine if all parties agreed (or at least the majority), we'd find a way to get it done. StuRat (talk) 04:26, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I guess it does seem kind of silly to include a "secession provision" into a statehood-agreement simply because if, for example, Texas decided on, and was firmly committed to, secession, they probably wouldn't give a shit whether the Federal Government thought it was legal or not (assuming that they were so firmly committed that they were willing to back it up, as the worst case scenario, with armed conflict You'd think that would be considered beforehand). But maybe I'm missing something. Quinn ^{░ RAIN} 04:55, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The page section Texas Annexation#Options for the formation of new states mentions a possible constitutional issue, if the splitting of Texas were ever actually attempted. Pfly (talk) 05:13, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The joke in Alaska is that if Texans can't get over it that when Alaska became a state Texas became the second-largest instead of the largest, we'll split Alaska in half and Texas can be the third largest. Course we also have our very own secessionists as well. Beeblebrox (talk) 05:45, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Wasn't this resolved in 1865? The Mark of the Beast (talk) 05:59, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Not really. Just because one attempt at secession resulted in war doesn't mean that all must. Heck, there are large parts of the nation I'd like to encourage to leave the Union. :-) StuRat (talk) 06:11, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

So, let's say California decided to secede from the U.S. b/c their environmental and civil liberty policies were at odds. And assuming that, if that were the case, California would not acknowledge any sort of U.S. supreme court ruling as having baring on the secession after the fact...do you not think the U.S. Fed would invoke military action to "bring them back in line?" What other alternatives would there be? Quinn ^{░ RAIN} 06:45, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I see many peaceful alternatives:

1) Allow them to become fully independent.

2) Form an EU style confederation, where CA is no longer under the US Constitution, but still maintains other key economic links.

3) Revise the laws in question to give CA more leeway. For example, trying to arrest Californians for the production, distribution, and sale of medical marijuana is one of the worst Federal policies. StuRat (talk) 07:01, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It would be a very similar situation as is currently happening with regards to Scottish independence. The legal position is very clear that Scotland can't unilaterally break away from the UK and all the major UK political parties are very clear that they don't think it would be in Scotland's interests or the interests of the rest of the UK for Scotland to break away, but everyone is agreed that if the Scottish people really want to then they will be allowed to. I would expect the rest of the US to view Calafornian independence in much the same way (although there are a few differences - Scotland was independant until 300 years ago, while Calafornia has never been a sovereign state, and the British tend to be a little more pragmatic than the Americans when it comes to patriotism). --Tango (talk) 12:45, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

California historians might disagree with part of that. See Republic of California (1846). Rmhermen (talk) 14:58, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

What an em-bear-assing mistake. :-) StuRat (talk) 19:45, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

That article doesn't remotely contradict what I said. It says "the "republic" never exercised any real authority, and it was never recognized by any nation". A 26-day revolt does not a sovereign state make. --Tango (talk) 01:02, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

As a practical matter, the federal government could deal with that fairly readily if it ever got to that very silly point by not allowing planes to enter California airspace, or trains. Refuse to clear people at the ports of entry. Have the Federal Reserve Bank in San Francisco refuse to issue any money (not just currency) to California banks. Really, it would never get to force.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:04, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

This is not 1861 any more. The United States has a long-standing tradition of supporting various independence movements in every corner of the planet. It consistently operates under the banner of self-determination of peoples to such a degree that it routinely uses the term "freedom fighters" to describe movements which should properly be labelled as "terrorists". (Some recent examples include Chechnya, Kosovo, and Kurdistan.) It's hard to imagine that the federal government would be willing (or even that it would have popular support) to conduct any hostile actions towards any state that tried to secede, assuming that secession is approved by a statewide referendum. --Itinerant1 (talk) 21:28, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm rather skeptical that anyone in the US called Chechnya a case of "freedom fighters". Do you have a source for this ? StuRat (talk) 22:17, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

As for the Texas matter, the treaty provision did not place Texas under any different status than any other state for splitting. The provision allows Texas to be split with the consent of Congress and its legislature. But that's true of any state.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Admittedly, I didn't read the whole thing, but I did skim through the Texas Constitution at http://www.constitution.legis.state.tx.us/ and I don't see any such provisions. The Mark of the Beast (talk) 07:13, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

It's not in the state constitution (as far as I know), rather the Annexation of Texas Joint Resolution of Congress and Ordinance of the Convention of Texas. Pfly (talk) 07:26, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Medical license

Is a U.S. medical license recognised by other countries (except Canada), permitting the holder to practice medicine there without going through further exams? Thanks. --Gidip (talk) 03:51, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd expect it to vary by nation, with those which are able to perform their own certification being pickier than third world nations, in general. StuRat (talk) 04:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

For what it's worth, my old college roommate went, as a cosmetic surgeon in later life, down to Fiji as a volunteer to perform reconstructive surgery (cleft palates, thing like that), and had to be officially "invited" by the corresponding agency in Fiji (so he had to have papers). But it was really just a formality, and, from what I recall, was facilitated entirely by the Red Cross. Quinn ^{░ RAIN} 05:03, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

In Japan, the Medical Practitioners Act prohibits non-holder of a Japanese medical license to practice medicine. --Kusunose 10:08, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Most countries would require you to get a license to practice in that country, but they will usually recognise your existing training and qualifications as long as they aren't considered significantly easier or less complete than the local ones. --Tango (talk) 12:48, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

My brother graduated from an American medical school, but he says he would have to take exams to practice back in Canada. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:56, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Chinese astronomer with a Japanese name

I was in the imperial chinese history portal. There is a picture of a Chiinese astronomer 1600s but he has a Japanese name. Very confusing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.157.87 (talk) 09:14, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

And what is your question for the Reference Desk? -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 09:43, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I browsed Portal:History of Imperial China and Portal:History of Imperial China/Selected biography but none of them seems to have a Japanese name. Please be more specific. --Kusunose 10:05, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Portal:History_of_Imperial_China currently has a picture of "A 1675 painting of Kuniyoshi Utagawa, a Chinese priest-astronomer". This is incorrectly labelled; Kuniyoshi Utagawa is the Japanese painter and Chicasei Goyô (Wu Yong) the subject: see [75]. --Colapeninsula (talk) 11:10, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

OP is refering to File:Utagawa Kuniyoshi, Portrait of Chicasei Goyô (Wu Yong) (1827–1830).jpg. This picture is shown on Portal:History of Imperial China. The image caption on the portal is misleading: it says “A 1675 painting of Kuniyoshi Utagawa, a Chinese priest-astronomer”. The image page suggests that the picture was painted by Utagawa Kuniyoshi, a 19th century Japanese painter; whereas the image depicts Chicasei Goyô who is also known as Wu Yong, a fictional Chinese astronomer who is described as having lived in the 12th century in the 15th century classical Chinese novel Water Margin. Thus there seem to be two errors in the description of the painting on the portal: firstly the date 1675 is probably wrong, secondly it confuses the painter with the person depicted; unless the errors are in the image description or the articles. – b_jonas 11:20, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I fixed it (be bold!) 59.108.42.46 (talk) 11:27, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

But hold on, "ca" is not a valid syllable in Japanese. IF "Chicasei" comes from his nickname as written in the label in the upper right hand corner of the painting, that is 智多星 ("a very clever star"), which should be chitasei, and the actual name should be "Go Yō", given that the first character is his surname and the second is his given name. The whole thing should, I think, be "Chitasei, Go Yō", and the corresponding Mandarin Chinese is "Zhiduoxing, Wu Yong". But I don't speak Japanese so I'll wait for a native Japanese speaker to confirm whether I'm reading it right. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 18:16, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Ah, not in the biography section but in the selected picture section. I missed it. As for his name in Japanese, yes, his nickname is Chitasei and it should be "Chitasei Go Yō" in Hepburn romanization. Using a circumflex to indicate a long vowel is a feature of Kunrei-shiki romanization and Nihon-shiki romanization. --Kusunose 00:58, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Research Project

Hello Wikipedians, My name is Raffaele and I'm a Master student in Social Anthropology at Goldsmiths College (University of London); I'm writing to ask for your help with my dissertation project: I'm currently looking at knowledge sharing practices and it would be extremely helpful to have a small contribution from you, as the biggest knowledge sharing community. I will only need a small amount of your precious time for a short interview. If you think it is something you would like to take part in, please let me know; I haven’t decide how to conduct the interviews yet, but probably I will send you a list of questions which you can decide to answer, or if you are based in London, or maybe in Europe, you could share your answer with me in front of a coffee! Thank you very much for taking the time Best RaffaeleRafTer (talk) 15:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Whilst there may be people on the ref-desk who'll happily take part in an interview on their knowledge sharing practices, they wouldn't be able to speak for Wikipedia. Wikipedia itself does have a contact us page Wikipedia:Contact_us where it suggests you can contact the founder Jimmy Wales. ny156uk (talk) 19:30, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

But then, again, does Jimmy Wales talk for Wikipedia any more than it's editors ? The nature of such a collaborative process is that "nobody is in charge". StuRat (talk) 19:40, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

As you'd know from your ethics committee application, soliciting for interviews in this way, particularly when the object of research has a formal interface for researchers and approved projects, is not a good thing. Fifelfoo (talk) 22:30, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Huh ? StuRat (talk) 01:08, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

CERN

How on earth is the abbreviation for "The European Organization for Nuclear Research" become CERN? 117.227.51.48 (talk) 15:59, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Because it used to be the 'Conseil Européen pour la Recherche Nucléaire' and when they changed the name, they kept the old acronym, because that's what everyone remembers. 148.197.81.179 (talk) 16:13, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

You have to admit, CERN is easier to say (and less silly-sounding) than EONR. Sern vs. Ee-Oh-Ner. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:28, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Is it really a matter of "used to be", or is it just that the real name is the French one because that's the language they speak where it is, and the second name above is an English translation? HiLo48 (talk) 19:26, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

From CERN:"The acronym CERN originally stood, in French, for Conseil Européen pour la Recherche Nucléaire (European Council for Nuclear Research), which was a provisional council for setting up the laboratory, established by 12 European governments in 1952. The acronym was retained for the new laboratory after the provisional council was dissolved, even though the name changed to the current Organisation Européenne pour la Recherche Nucléaire (European Organization for Nuclear Research) in 1954.[2]"99.245.35.136 (talk) 20:34, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Sern? I've always said "kern". There you go. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:45, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

But either way, still easier than EONR. --Mr.98 (talk) 21:46, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Genisys Credit Union

I recently wrote an article on Genisys Credit Union, and I put down 1936 as the foundation date, because the majority of the sources and the organization itself use that year as the foundation date. Genisys Credit Union was actually created in 2008 as the result of a merger of two credit unions, T&C Federal Credit Union (which was founded in 1936) and USA Credit Union (which was founded in 1954). So 1936 is used because it is the date the oldest merged organization was founded. I am not sure if this the right place to ask, but what is common practice on Wikipedia? Is the date of the merger used as the foundation date, or is the original foundation date of the oldest organization used? Thank you for your time. Best, Alpha_Quadrant (talk) 21:43, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The general principle on Wikipedia is to go with the sources. This is just one of many examples of why infoboxes are a "bad thing". The true situation is easily explained in full in the article prose, but the infobox forces one to state a definite and single answer which will be misleading whichever date one chooses. SpinningSpark 21:57, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

By the way, you are right, this was not the right place. WP:EAR or WP:HD would have been better. SpinningSpark 22:01, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Ah, thanks. So the best solution is to explain the conflict using prose? Alpha_Quadrant (talk) 22:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Mae West Road, Fayette County, Pennsylvania

Why is there a Mae West Road in Fayette County, Pennsylvania? Wasn't Mae West from New York City? Or is the street named after another Mae West? -- Mwalcoff (talk) 21:57, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

People don't have to come from the place where the road is to be honoured in this way. See Stalin Road, Colchester, UK - Cucumber Mike (talk) 22:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Just like they honor Martin Luther King, Jr. by naming roads after him in the worst part of every big city. :-) StuRat (talk) 22:11, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, but it's not common in America to name rural roads after controversial film stars from other states. (Not common to name streets after Stalin, either.) -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:13, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Just to one up Mae West Road, there's the town of Jim Thorpe, Pennsylvania. I'm not sure Jim Thorpe ever visited the town while alive. Though he did while dead. --Jayron32 22:50, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It's also possible it was named indirectly after Mae West, as that name was adopted to describe WW2-era life jackets, which inflated in front of the chest on either side. Perhaps such life jackets were manufactured there, or saved the life of whoever named the road, etc. Or maybe the people who live there just want you to come up and see them sometime. StuRat (talk) 22:54, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

There's also one in Wisconsin. No indication as to why, though. She was from "Greenpernt", as she used to say. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:02, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

February 23

Removing laugh tracks

There are some programs I would like to watch, but I simply cannot abide laugh tracks. I know some people say that they don't even notice them after a while. Me, and all my life, it's like nails on a chalkboard. I don't know how people can stand it (it is not the sound—I like the sound of people laughing—it is the obstruction, the fakeness of it that immediately twangs my nerves and makes me turn off the program). I've never watched many sitcoms everyone else knows because of it. Is there any computer program out there or something that would allow me to remove just the soundtrack but not the other sounds? Also, am I unique in this regard?--108.46.103.88 (talk) 00:59, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I can't picture a way to reliable tell laughter in the laugh track from laughter of the characters, for example. So, I think a human would be needed to turn the volume down when the laugh track comes on. Another option might be to read the transcripts, instead, as long as it's not visual humor. StuRat (talk) 01:03, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I have an instant urge to hear the worst-offending sitcom laugh-tracks. I agree they are horrible but I crave them. Can you link to any good examples on YouTube? I doubt that any program can remove laugh-tracks if they are part of a mixed sound including something you want to hear. The sounds would be mingled. But perhaps I am mistaken, as I have zero expertise in this area. Thanks for the question. Bus stop (talk) 01:11, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Any really bad sitcom will have noticeably annoying laugh track. One I found rather unfunny was Kate and Allie, but, by all means, search for your most hated show. StuRat (talk) 04:08, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps this question should be moved to the Computing reference desk. Bus stop (talk) 01:29, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I bet some really smart programmer could figure out a way to distinguish the sound profile of multiple laughs that make up a soundtrack from a single laugh and could invent software to do this, but like many things, innovation and mass publication follows demand. I don't think I'm typical and so, even if this technology exists, it probably has not been put out there for me to even find. I wonder if the program packaged as "laughtrack-less" versions would have commercial viability. Maybe CBS should put out a separate DVD set for laughtrack-less, The Big Bang Theory (which I watched 30 seconds of once after hearing it was a very good show before turning the dial in disgust). Oh well. At least today there are some comedy shows without the laugh track (it used to be that almost every sitcom had one).--108.46.103.88 (talk) 02:37, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

You could also have multiple cast members laughing, or they could be watching a sit-com with a laugh track on TV within the scene. I think you might do best to reduce the volume on all laughs, since that wouldn't require the same degree of programming. StuRat (talk) 04:12, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Most of those sitcoms are taped/filmed before a live audience, although (as pointed out here a week or two ago also) the laughter might be "sweetened" a bit. And keep in mind that with weird shows like Big Bang Theory, the laugh track might be necessary in order to be clued in on when something is supposed to be funny. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:48, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to the laugh track, per se. It has it's uses, like when a sit-com normally filmed in front of a studio audience goes on location for an episode, where the sudden silence would seem odd (they could also show it to an audience later and loop the live laughter, I suppose). However, when they put excessive laughs after bad jokes, or even after every break in the conversation, that's when it gets annoying. StuRat (talk) 04:05, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

There is something funny about a laugh-track. Laughter is supposed to be spontaneous and irrepressible, not predictable and controllable. Real laughter is contagious, like yawning is. But a loop of the same uninspired laughing grates on one's ears. That alone could be funny if the jokes are unfunny and the laughter is obviously recorded and the same in each instance. But I think the Computer ref desk is where this question really should be asked. Bus stop (talk) 04:28, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Since I think automated solutions are likely to fail, here is a followup question: Does anyone know of a TV show with a laugh track, and when the TV show was issued on DVD, the laugh track was removed? Second followup: Does anyone know of a TV show on DVD where there's a menu option to turn the laugh track on or off? It's technically easy. I sort of doubt a lot of producers would want this because of the admission it is making. Comet Tuttle (talk) 04:41, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

This should be technically quite easy for them to do, as long as they still have the original recordings on separate tracks. This could be done just like alternate spoken languages, or descriptive video. A bit trickier would be the option to turn the laugh track up or down, independently of the main volume. StuRat (talk) 04:50, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

The Flintstones was originally aired with a laugh track. According to the article, Turner Broadcasting stripped the laugh track from the episodes when it reran them in the 90s. They then changed their mind and not only added the laugh track back but gave some episodes a new laugh track. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 04:59, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

definition of folder management

i couldn't find the specific definition of folder management in the wikipedia. Please assist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.241.201.255 (talk) 07:34, 23 February 2012 (UTC)