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September 14[edit]

Meaning of a song title[edit]

French speakers please! What does "Si Tu N'Etais Pas La" translate to? It is the title of this song. I put it in Google Translate, and it didn't make any sense. Thanks everyone!! 59.167.253.199 (talk) 01:26, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

My french is a little rusty, but I think it means "If you are not there". Si, when starting a sentence means "If", "tu" is the informal form of "you", and "n'etre pas" in its various forms means "to not be" while "là" means "there". So, "If you aren't there" seems like a good swipe at it. --Jayron32 01:36, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps this website might help. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 02:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Thank you your holiness, that is a great site! 59.167.253.199 (talk) 13:57, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Yes, it's a counterfactual conditional where French uses the imperfect tense for the protasis (if-clause). Hence it's "if you weren't there", while "if you are not there" would be "si tu n'es pas là". ---Sluzzelin talk 03:56, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Agreed. The correct spelling is "Si tu n'étais pas là". Part of the reason Google Translate got confused was the missing accent on "là". --65.94.51.64 (talk) 04:00, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

How do you pronounce "azure"?[edit]

I know of four ways of pronunciation: [ə'ʒu:r], ['æʒju:r], [æʒ'jər], ['eɪʒər]. Of course, the [r] will disappear in non-rhotic accents - the [u:r] becoming [ʊə], but let's put aside the rhotic issue.

So, as a non-native, I would like to know:

  1. Do you know of another way of pronouncing "azure"?
  2. How is "azure" pronounced, in what part of the world (or where you live)?
  3. Do you use this word in your everyday speech, or in written language only?

77.125.92.83 (talk) 01:29, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

:I would say it as your second one (I think - not that great with IPA) first syllable same as the word "as", second same as "yer", and I would never pronounce the r. I should say it's most often used in singing "When Britain first, at Heaven's command / Arose from out the azure main.." Native British speaker. DuncanHill (talk) 01:38, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

You probably mean my third option. 77.125.92.83 (talk) 01:53, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
No, I meant the second one as the question was when I answered it, but you have changed the options since I answered! DuncanHill (talk) 02:06, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
And the stress would be on the second syllable, not the first - stress on the first sounds distinctly foreign. DuncanHill (talk) 02:07, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
I use the middle one. I live in the southeastern U.S. currently, but grew up speaking New England English. I now speak mostly General American English, with a few hints of New England thrown in. --Jayron32 01:39, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
You mean the second one. Btw, do you use the word "azure" in your everyday speech? 77.125.92.83 (talk) 01:53, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
I mean, it's not like I wake up every day and plan to use it. But I've been known to say it from time to time when appropriate. --Jayron32 02:04, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
I azure you it's used rather infrequently, but when it is, most people (I hope) know what it means. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:58, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I have struck my answers because it is impossible to answer a question like this meaningfully when the question gets changed after people have already answered it. DuncanHill (talk) 02:09, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
I would say [ə'ʒu:r], or other ways you haven't listed, [ə'ʒʊ:r], [ə'ʒjʊ:r], [ə'zu:r], or [ə'zʊ:r]. It's hard to say because I wouldn't really ever use that word in speech, but if I did, it would definitely start with a schwa, be stressed on the second syllable, and most likely have a z instead of a ʒ, and a ʊ instead of a u. I would say it rhymes with "sure". I speak some variant or other of West–Central Canadian English (so, fully rhotic). Adam Bishop (talk) 02:19, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Australian here. It was always (non-rhotic) option 4 (AY-zhə) here, an exact homophone for Asia, but of recent times I've heard a few people say option 1 (ə-ZHU-ə). It's only ever trotted out in faux-poetic contexts now, and most people have had no aural guidance so they make up how they think it should be pronounced. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 02:25, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm sure there was a "popular" (among teachers, anyway) national pride style Australian song/poem that used the word. My brain cells keep dredging up fragments of it from half a century ago. Do you recall it? HiLo48 (talk) 04:08, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
That would be the Song of Australia. "There is a land where summer skies / Are gleaming with a thousand dyes, / Blending in witching harmonies; / And grassy knoll and forest height, / Are flushing in the rosy light, / And all above is azure bright — Australia!" DuncanHill (talk) 04:25, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Yes! With a grassy knoll as well. Thanks Duncan. HiLo48 (talk) 06:15, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
And here we can hear the inimitable, not to mention utubular, Peter Dawson singing it, with the pron of "azure" exactly as I described above. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 07:03, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Ah yes, he had it right. HiLo48 (talk) 07:07, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Are you quite, quite sure? It was Britain that arose from out of the azure main. Rule Britannia![1] Thincat (talk) 08:53, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Britain arose form out the azure main, in Australia all above is azure bright. DuncanHill (talk) 14:38, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Britain may have arisen from an azure main, but Australia is girt by sea. HiLo48 (talk) 18:13, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Australia may be girt by sea (Girt-by-Sea sounds like a decayed seaside resort in Sussex), but it's not a precious stone set in the silver sea, nor is it scepter'd. DuncanHill (talk) 18:29, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Southern England (half West-Midlands accent, half South-London). I pronounce it to rhyme with "as your" (with the second syllable rhyming with "or"), and with a slight stress on the second syllable. I'm not fluent in IPA, but I think that would make it [æʒ'ju:r] Bluap (talk) 02:32, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
There's a lot of variation here in the UK. I pronounce it ['aʒju:r] (as you're) here in the north. I'm surprised to see so many of you putting stress on the second syllable (though both stresses are used, of course).)Dbfirs 08:46, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Agree with that (Londoner). Alansplodge (talk) 12:33, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Central California English (although with heavy influence from Oklahoma/Arkansas) here. I say ['æʒjʊr] and that's all I hear around here. Accent on the second syllable sounds like a non-native speaker or maybe somebody trying to be pretentious. I will say, however, that I rarely say or hear the word in everyday speech. I would just say "blue" or if I need to be more specific, "sky blue".--William Thweatt TalkContribs 09:11, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

OP's comment: Thank you all. As I understand, the variation in pronunciation is probably a result of the rareness of the word in everyday speech. As a native Hebrew speaker - I find this socio-linguistic fact - quite interesting, because when Hebrew speakers - who are taught English at school - get to the "color" topic, and are told about the pair "black / gray" (i.e. a mixture of black and white), and about the pair "red / pink" (i.e. a mixture of red and white), they are never told about the pair "blue / azure" (i.e. a mixture of blue and white), i.e. they are told about "blue" only, although Hebrew has a very common word for "azure" (Numbers, 15, 38), being used rather frequently in everyday speech, or rather: not less frequently than "pink" or "gray" (The option "sky blue" is usually not mentioned in the English lessons for Hebrew speakers, maybe because it's composed of two words, just as "light yellow/green/orange/purple/brown" is not mentioned). 87.68.215.84 (talk) 11:57, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Our article, Distinction of blue and green in various languages, may be of interest to you. We also have an article called Blue in Judaism and a general article, Blue, in which you may find some pertinent information.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 14:36, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! 87.68.215.84 (talk) 18:17, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Since I don't see my variant above, it's ['æʒr] with a syllabic final r and no palatalization. Rhymes with badger except for badger's -j- vs azure's -zh-. μηδείς (talk) 17:40, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
You forgot to indicate where it's pronounced [æʒr]. 87.68.215.84 (talk) 18:17, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
D'uh, took me a second, I'm thinking, "well, here, of course." Here is Delaware Valley accent. μηδείς (talk) 19:12, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Another vote for [ˈæʒr] (or as I might transcribe it, [ˈæʒɚ]), which I was surprised not to see; it's the first or only pronunciation given in all the dictionaries I've checked, British and American. I'm from Illinois. I do remember not knowing how to pronounce it when I was growing up, and I agree that it's common in literature but rare in everyday speech, in which I would use "sky blue" or "light blue". Lesgles (talk) 22:44, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Northen UK-er here, who speaks very close to RP. I would say it as /az'ju:ə/, or sometimes I would add the glottal /R/ at the end, just for artistic effect, because, to be honest, it's a word we rarely use. KägeTorä - () (Chin Wag) 11:20, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
To the person who posed the question, I'd say it's quite understandable why you did not learn about the word azure in English class. The word is seldom used. It is hardly ever used in everyday conversation and is almost confined to poetic or self-consciously literary texts. The word is not like gray or pink, which are everyday, widely recognized colors. Though I am quite educated and work with words professionally, I will confess that I did not know until reading this thread that azure referred to a specific shade of blue, and I doubt that most native English speakers know exactly which shade of blue the word indicates. I thought that it was just a poetic synonym for blue. I wouldn't recommend translating the Hebrew word for "sky blue" as azure unless you are aiming for a poetic tone. Marco polo (talk) 13:31, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Likewise, in fact I would say the only time I regularly encounter the word "azure" is when Italian sports teams are referred to as "Azzurri", and I suppose the way this is pronounced in English makes me pronounce it the way I do. When I think of the colour azure, I think of the blue Italy soccer uniforms. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:19, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Shades of light blue.png
[Incidentally, the article "Sky blue" has a link to this image, shades of light blue.
(Anyone is welcome to edit my post, but only to make the image smaller.)
Wavelength (talk) 17:41, 15 September 2014 (UTC)]
I added this markup to make it smaller and to appear on the right:[[File:Shades_of_light_blue.png|thumb|right|300px]] μηδείς (talk) 18:05, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
In addition to sparse 'everyday' use of the word, "Azure" was and is the standard term in (British) Heraldry for the tincture corresponding to 'blue'. Like all tinctures it isn't precisely defined – because in practice it depends on the pigments available to the user and to how much exposure to the elements may alter it – except that it should be distinct from the lighter Bleu celeste ('sky blue'). In my experience, heraldry enthusiasts don't obsess about the correct pronunciation of an Anglo-Norman French word originating in the Middle Ages, perhaps because most first encounter it in text rather than speech and because it is scarcely confusable with anything else. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 212.95.237.92 (talk) 19:02, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I pronounce it [ˈæʒɚ]. Pais (talk) 14:15, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

September 15[edit]

Czech:English translator/content editor[edit]

Resolved

Stumbled across the article Jankovský of Vlašim, which appears to be a poor translation from Czech. How would one find an active content editor who speaks Czech that might tidy this up? --Dweller (talk) 13:58, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

See Category:User cs.—Wavelength (talk) 14:39, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
See Category:Wikipedians who participate in Pages needing translation into English.
Wavelength (talk) 14:51, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Excellent, thanks. --Dweller (talk) 14:53, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Word-ending aversions[edit]

I might be imagining, but it seems that in English you won't find words that end with an "ah" vowel sound (like the 'o' in 'hot'), even words ending in 'a' are pronounced "uh" (like NASA, pizza). In modern Hebrew many, many words end with the "ah" sound.
[Curiously, in Hebrew there are two vowels patach that makes an "ah" sound, and kumatz that makes an "uh" sound, although in modern Hebrew they have merged into the "ah" sound. Most examples of Hebrew words that end in "ah" are really spelled with a "kumatz" meaning that their original pronunciation was not "ah" and words that truly end in "ah" are pretty scarce.]
I've noticed this because my children are bi-lingual English and Hebrew (I speak to them in English) and when they say a word in Hebrew to me in modern Hebrew that ends with an "ah" they change the pronunciation to "uh" - seemingly because they never hear an "ah" ending from me (even the Hebrew I say to them is more liturgal/biblical, pronouncing the "kumatz" as an "uh").

Am I missing some words, or is this a common feature of some languages? אפונה (talk) 17:40, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

אפונה -- Traditionally in modern English, the "short" or "checked" vowels [ɛ], [æ], [ʊ], [ʌ], and [ɒ] were only found in syllables pronounced with some degree of stress, and were not found at the end of a word or directly before another vowel (with very limited exceptions for certain interjections or onomatopoeia, such as imitating the sound made by sheep). Originally [ɪ] was an exception to this (and still is in many British dialects), but in some dialects [ɪ] before a vowel or at the end of a word has been changed to [i]/[iː], while unstressed [ɪ] in other positions has become [ɨ] and/or [ə], so that [ɪ] is no longer an exception in such dialects. Of course, [ɑː] and [ɔː] were always allowed to occur at the end of a word, and in some dialects [ɔː] and [ɒ] have now merged... AnonMoos (talk) 17:56, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Also, the Hebrew קמץ diacritic (a little "T" looking symbol under a Hebrew letter) represents two historical sounds in early/Biblical Hebrew, a long [ā] sound and a short [o] sound, which are still pronounced differently in some "Sephardi" traditions of recitation of Biblical Hebrew, and most of the time also in modern Israeli Hebrew (which was influenced by Ashkenazi traditions in the pronunciation of the consonants and Sephardi traditions in pronunciation of the vowels). A קמץ diacritic indicating a word-final vowel was always [ā], not [o]... AnonMoos (talk) 18:07, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply! "a long [ā] sound"... like 'a' in 'day'? I've never, ever, heard anyone pronounce it that way. That would be closest to a צירה. In Ashkenazi pronunciation the קמץ is pronounced like the 'u' in 'cut', and in modern Hebrew & Sephardi like the 'o' in 'cop'. אפונה (talk) 19:39, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
No. AnonMoos means something like what you're writing "ah". (This is why serious discussion of phonetics is nearly impossible without using IPA or something similar. You nearly lost me at the beginning, because in no British dialect is the vowel in "hot" the least bit like "ah": it's much more like kamatz katon. Ditto "cop" at the end of what you wrote). --ColinFine (talk) 21:44, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

אפונה -- Go to International Phonetic Alphabet and Help:IPA for English for a quick summary on phonetic symbols (though "ā" in my comment above was a historical linguistics convention for what would be [ɑː] and/or [aː] in stricter IPA). AnonMoos (talk) 01:38, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I actually looked up the ā sound, but Wikipedia gives it as "eɪ" like the 'a' in base (see Wikipedia:United States dictionary transcription. I saw one other page like this but can't bother to find it.) אפונה (talk) 05:52, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, but "United States dictionary transcriptions" is the wrong place -- those symbols are intended for English-speakers who are not linguists, while the International Phonetic alphabet (and related symbols, such as vowels with macrons in historical linguistics) are intended to be used by speakers of a number of languages with relevant expertise... AnonMoos (talk) 06:50, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
but you said that [ā] is not IPA (and I can't find it there either) rather an outdated system - which system uses [ā] for [ɑː]? And how do you pronounce [aː] - I still can't find it. Thanks if you can help me. אפונה (talk) 17:01, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, dude, but if you're going to advance beyond the most basic introductory level in this area, then you're going to have to get used to the idea that sometimes the same symbol can have different meanings in different context. The a-with-macron symbol "ā" is not used to indicate IPA [eɪ] when linguists write for other linguists, nor by non-English speakers. Another thing is that when historical linguists do reconstructions of sound systems and sound changes, they don't necessarily always work in terms of strict IPA. In this context, "ā" is a convenient symbol to use to write a sound which could be equivalent to [ɑː] and/or [aː], when the difference between the two doesn't matter much for the historical reconstruction in question... AnonMoos (talk) 00:52, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
It would be helpful if you would answer the question... how would I learn anything if you can't tell me the name of the system that uses [ā] as such so I could learn more about it (and how to pronounce [aː]) אפונה (talk) 04:35, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Use of "ā" to indicate [ɑː] and/or [aː] is not necessarily part of any formally-defined "system"; however, it is an extremely prevalent practice among historical linguists when they are not using strict IPA. However, you can look at Americanist phonetic notation for partial documentation of similar practices (note: Americanist phonetic notation is vastly different from "United States dictionary transcriptions" -- historical linguists never use United States dictionary transcriptions). You may consider linguistic symbols to be pretentious and hoity-toity, but they're vastly superior to fumbling around with things like "uh", "ah", and "o as in cop"... AnonMoos (talk) 05:01, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Early or Biblical Hebrew had a standard "5×2" vowel system like Classical Latin, with both short and long phonemes for each of the basic [a], [e], [i], [o], and [u] vowels (ignoring reduced vowels). In traditions leading to Sephardi (and modern Israeli Hebrew) pronunciations, the long-short vowel contrast collapsed (ceased to be distinctive) so there were now 5 vowel phonemes instead of 10, while in traditions leading to Ashkenazi pronunciations, there was a more complex pattern of mergers, so that 10 vowel phonemes became 7:

Early or Biblical Hebrew Tiberian spelling Ashkenazi or pre-Yiddish "Sephardi"
ī חירק י i i
i חירק i i
ē צרי e e
e סגול ɛ e
ū שורק u u
u קבוץ u u
ō חולם o o
o קמץ ɔ o
ā קמץ ɔ a
a פתח a a

In actual Yiddish the vowels [e],[o] shown in the "Ashkenazi" column of the table above have become diphthongs whose pronunciation varies by dialect...

When you say that קמץ in modern Israeli is pronounced like the "o" in English "cop" I don't really know what you're trying to say, because Tiberian קמץ has two different pronunciations in modern Israeli, while the vowel of "cop" has quite a range of variant pronunciations across different dialects of English (due to Cot-caught merger). AnonMoos (talk) 01:38, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I have heard [ɑː] for a קמץ, but in my experience, [ʌ] like the "u" in "cup" is more common. I can't figure out what [aː] is. It's interesting to see the difference between the חיריק מלא and חסר given as ī and i - careful Ashkenazi pronunciation uses i when it is מלא (with a יוד) and ɪ when חסר (lacking the יוד), but in practice many don't know the difference and always use "i" like you wrote.
I really do need to memorize the IPA symbols. I was just too lazy to find the right symbols, :-(. The complaint about "cop" was to be expected. I actually ran a few words through my head to avoid the "caught" merger and British pronunciation, but couldn't think of any right away. אפונה (talk) 05:52, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
I still don't know what you mean when you refer to קמץ in the context of modern Israeli Hebrew (since קמץ has two pronunciations there), and modern Israeli Hebrew does not have distinctive vowel length contrasts (i.e. separate short and long vowel phonemes). Uriel Weinreich's Yiddish dictionary doesn't indicate any [i]/[I] contrast for Yiddish, and in any case the third column of the table above is not about Yiddish as such, but about early Ashkenazi Biblical recitation traditions which underly the pronunciation of Hebrew words in Yiddish... AnonMoos (talk) 06:50, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Sorry for not being clear. I was consistently referring to a regular קצץ not the קמץ קטן - and I've always heard it (and been taught it) as [ʌ], even what I wrote about hearing it as [ɑː] was a mistake - I had only seen it in a footnote of a book.
The [ɪ]/[i] contrast is in careful Ashkenazi pronunciation, like I wrote before. I had never meant to imply Yiddish pronunciation - where did you see that in my comment? אפונה (talk) 17:01, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
The original questioner may be interested in WP's article on Stress and vowel reduction in English. --Nicknack009 (talk) 07:23, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
אפונה, see Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 February 13 and my comment made at 19:32, 19 February 2009 (UTC).
Wavelength (talk) 17:08, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
English has plenty of monosyllables ending with this sound: ma, pa, spa. In non-rhotic accents, there are more: bar, car, far. There aren't many polysyllabic words with this, though. It seems to me I've heard some Americans pronouncing place names (particularly Africa) with an unreduced vowel, but I may be mistaken. --ColinFine (talk) 09:31, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Guys[edit]

Why are men sometimes referred to as "guys". Where does the word Guy originate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wsccj8 (talkcontribs) 22:08, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Originally referred to a person of unsavory character, from Guy Fawkes. See [2]. --Jayron32 22:11, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Guy Fawkes, on the other hand, got the given name Guy because his mother thought he was a son of a bitch. μηδείς (talk) 00:00, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
If you're going to be disruptive then at least have the courtesy to mark your jokes with <small>. Otherwise they're hard to tell apart from your bad answers. WinterWall (talk) 02:01, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
You seem to have had no such trouble, WinterWall. Etymology on line gives a full two century hiatus between Guy Fawkes acts and the use of the name first to mean poorly dressed person. Guy Fawkes was not known for being a poorly dressed person. μηδείς (talk) 20:21, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Is there a pun or something? —Tamfang (talk) 21:12, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
The answer Jayron references is circular, like saying, "Why are they called pigs? ...Because they are such filthy animals." If "Guy" meant disreputable person, rather than being the Anglo-Norman equivalent of Tom, Dick and Harry, then the question arises, why did Mrs. Fawkes name her son a name that means an unsavory character? μηδείς (talk) 21:38, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
I read the question less literally, as "Where does this usage originate?". —Tamfang (talk) 07:22, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
Another source here (last paragraph). Deor (talk) 22:17, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Guillaume, actuellement. μηδείς (talk) 00:00, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Medeis, the name Guy has no connection to Guillaume. It is a separate name, cognate with Guido. Not sure what you are getting at with "son of a bitch". Marco polo (talk) 00:30, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Medeis has poorly developed understanding of Poe's law. --Jayron32 01:29, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, Jayron32, for refraining from obscenity. Can you suggest what the nickname for Guillaume is? μηδείς (talk) 20:21, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Guillaume is cognate with William, so the question is how (or if) the French would equate to "Will". Googling the subject yields many pages that claim to know,[3] and possible nicknames include Gilen, Guilherme, Guilen, Guillem, Guillerme and... Guy. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:37, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Surely it's worth mentioning that these days "guys" often refers to females as well. It seems to have happened because polite English doesn't have a word for multiple second persons. (The southern US "y'all" might be an exception.) HiLo48 (talk) 00:21, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
That's covered in Deor's link above. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 00:45, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Also in Wiktionary (usage notes under "Etymology 2"), which specifically mentions the functional similarity of "you guys" and "y'all". Deor (talk) 00:54, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
I don't think the gender-neutral meaning of "you guys" is particularly recent: I remember noticing it in American TV programmes such as The Dick van Dyke Show around 50 years ago. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 16:35, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
"You guys" is of long-standing and still of recent usage, but it may be dialectical, not found in the Southern US. See How Y’all, Youse and You Guys Talk. μηδείς (talk) 01:37, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
The usage is not dated, but Miriam-Webster recognizes the gender neutral plural form of "guys" as standard. Miriam-Webster is an American dictionary; perhaps the unabridged OED has some information on the earliest such usage. --Jayron32 16:53, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
The OED has (under "Draft additions October 2011"), the definition "colloq. As a form of address to a man... Also in pl. as a form of address to a group of people, in later use sometimes a mixed or all-female group." It has a citation from 1930 for "yous guys", but the only example where "guys" is unambiguously addressed to both men and women is from (a spoof article in) Private Eye in 2009. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 18:39, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
It's rather older than that. On the Mary Tyler Moore Show, in the 1970s, Ted Baxter used to walk into the newsroom and great the mixed crew with "Hi, guys." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:41, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
I read an anecdote in a popular linguistics book or column (probably in the 90's) about a linguistics professor who insisted to his class that while guy was often used gender neutrally, it was underlyingly marked as masculine. He said the argument ended when a girl in the class, who had been arguing the term as unmarked, said she had even heard a bunch of girls on the train using it. At that point she admitted the term must be marked or she would have said female guys. I have no idea what the source for this is, unfortunately, and search terms are unhelpful. μηδείς (talk) 01:29, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
I remember reading, in the book Le Ton beau de Marot: In Praise of the Music of Language by Douglas Hofstadter, a discussion of the gender-neutral use of guy. Someone else mentioned the book at http://rexwordpuzzle.blogspot.ca/2008/09/monday-sep-15-2008-sharon-e-petersen.html.
Wavelength (talk) 01:47, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
The term "Guys and Gals" seems to have fairly wide currency. I remember being quite surprised when I first heard an American calling some girls "guys" (in the 1980s perhaps?) but it has crossed the pond now. Alansplodge (talk) 18:10, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Though not now widely used (in a non-ironic way) in the UK, for obvious reasons. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:04, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Guy is the French form of a Germanic name, whose modern German form is Veidt; see also Guido. —Tamfang (talk) 07:22, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

September 16[edit]

The trouble with tribunes[edit]

Why are some newspapers named The Tribune? The Times, okay. The Post, sure. The Sun, maybe (illumination?). But why Tribune? Clarityfiend (talk) 07:16, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you asking the meaning of Tribune? Something else the Romans did for us.--Shantavira|feed me 07:28, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
No. I'm not so lazy I can't look that up in a dictionary. No definition has any real connection to the news, so what's the link? Clarityfiend (talk) 08:12, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
News is only one purpose of a newspaper. A (peoples) tribune is a person (or office) that looks out for the interest of the people - just like a newspaper (should, or might like to claim). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:17, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Clarityfiend -- In ancient Rome, the office of tribune was established as a concession from the ruling "patricians" to the "plebeians" (the majority of the population) in order to have someone in the government to look after the interests of the plebeians. The office of tribune was originally the only governing office open to plebeians. The connection with newspapers is a little metaphorical, but makes sense -- it's quite similar to "Guardian" as a newspaper name... AnonMoos (talk) 09:58, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

In Massachusetts, a number of local newspapers have been called The [Town Name] Advocate. Same idea. Marco polo (talk) 13:18, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Are such newspapers actually named after the office of tribune? I always assumed they were named after the (related) sense of the architectural structure of a tribune (architecture), i.e. in the sense of "speaker's podium" / "a place for free speech" etc. In many other languages there seem to be newspapers called after the structure, as in Spanish "Tribuna libre", Greek "To Vima, etc. Fut.Perf. 13:44, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

No refs seem likely for such a question, but I personally agree with Stephan Schulz' description above. Is not the architectural term itself a metaphor for the office? Similar to how 'the throne' or 'the crown' can be used metonymously to refer to a ruler. So I guess I'm saying your point is apt and interesting, but perhaps it highlights a distinction without a difference. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:00, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
No, the two senses of "tribune" in English are from two distinct (though related) Latin words, which just happen to have fallen together phonologically in English: Lat. tribunus for the person, and tribunal for the podium. In most other languages these two senses are clearly distinct words. My point was that cross-linguistically there seems to be a common (probably 19th-century) tradition of naming newspapers after the podium, but I can't think of any example of a newspaper unambiguously named after the office. Fut.Perf. 14:07, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Ah, thanks for the clarification. I suppose it could also be that the office took its name from the podium! If you're right, then it's a bit odd that there aren't any English publications named lectern/podium/dais, etc, using any of the other near-synonyms for the speaking place. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:35, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
The office did not take its name from the podium. See here. Marco polo (talk) 17:08, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
For whatever it's worth, in French, the name for newspapers is "La tribune" (the podium) and not "Le tribun" (the Roman office). --Xuxl (talk) 17:12, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Side comment. In Australia there's a government body known as the Coal Industry Tribunal. Despite its name, it's headed by a single judge. For mysterious reasons the name "Coal Industry Unibunal" seems never to have been seriously considered. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:03, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Can't quite tell whether you are joking – you are aware that the "tri-" in either "tribunal" or "tribune" has nothing to do with "three" though, right? Fut.Perf. 21:09, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
I seem to remember reading that tribune comes from tribe which in turn comes from a tripartite division of some Italic people. —Tamfang (talk) 21:23, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Yes. The word "tribe" is from the Latin tribus: "One of the three original tribes of Rome: Ramnes, Tities, Luceres". That lent itself to tribunal (L), which was borrowed by the Old French, and re-borrowed by the Middle-aged English. Somewhere along the line the connection to "three" was lost, but some of us have longer memories than that. "Tribune" and "tribute" also had the same origin. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 21:41, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Ave answerers. I who am about to edit some more salute you. Ixnay on the yingday. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:52, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Using the ampersand rather than the word "and"[edit]

Although our article states that an ampersand "&" represents the conjunction word "and", it has historically been used to show a closer relationship between two people, such as two screenwriters sharing equal credit, citing the work of two co-authors, or in the legal name of a company. In the last few years, I have noticed the ampersand being used much more frequently in place of the word "and" in many situations where there is no close pairing of people, e.g. "There will be a dinner & concert next Tuesday". I believe this type of usage would be frowned upon by most Manuals of Style and is simply another example of increasingly informal writing or laziness, similar to using the at-sign "@" in place of the word "at" in situations where there is no quantity and cost relationship or invoice in sight. I would appreciate your thoughts. --Thomprod (talk) 16:00, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Such usages were historically always common wherever people were prone to using abbreviated forms, for example in private letter-writing throughout the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries. Just as Old and Middle English routinely used the Tironian et sign. So if the ampersand is coming back now in informal writing, that's pretty much a return to the way it used to be for centuries. Fut.Perf. 16:07, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
According to the corpus of google ngram, & usage has been increasing since 1950, and by 2000 had reached the same incidence as 1800 [4]. (Unfortunately I can get it to search for solo ampersands, but it won't look for e.g. 'beans & cornbread') SemanticMantis (talk) 16:22, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
"Beans & cornbread" sits a little easier with me, because that combination is often referred to as a single dish. --Thomprod (talk) 17:48, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
For use in Wikipedia articles, see WP:&.—Wavelength (talk) 16:58, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
There have certainly been some instances where "&" is used to indicate a closer relationship than "and". In screen credits under the WGA screenwriting credit system, "&" indicates writers working together rather than successively. On this web site (search on the page for "Ampersand") "&" is used consistently for "and" when it is part of a name, allowing "and" to be used unambiguously in lists of names—for example, "the Hammersmith & City and East London Lines". And of course "&" is often used within an abbreviation. But I don't think it's possible to infer from this that "&" necessarily implies anything different than "and" does; it's just that some people choose to use it that way. --65.94.51.64 (talk) 23:31, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
When I see one of those older large brick stores with the sign painted on the side, it must have both an ampersand and a "Corp./Co." or it just doesn't seem historic. "Wilbur & Sons Kettle Corp." or "Davis & Wright Typewriter Co.", something like that. Outside of branding and computer coding, though, I find the thing hideous. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:42, September 18, 2014 (UTC)
Contemporary references to Gilbert and Sullivan seem to be fairly flexible with it. "Gilbert and Sullivan" and "Gilbert & Sullivan" were both used frequently. I guess you could call that "corporate branding" of a sort. One twist on the ampersand used to be used a lot in hand-written letters and notes, and may well still be: It's kind of a cursive version of an ampersand, looking like a plus sign with a loop in it, drawn without lifting the pen from the page. Easier than writing "and", especially if you're suffering the onset of writer's cramp. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:24, 18 September 2014 (UTC)


I follow the Wikipedia style (mentioned above). I use "&" to mean "and" only in the places I would abbreviate words, e.g. "There will be a dinner & concert next Tue.". Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 23:48, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Pendo and pendeo[edit]

What is the relationship between these two verbs? It seems that pendo refers to weighing something, pendeo refers to the thing so weighed (or hung). They are identical in the infinitive and perfect, though not otherwise and pendeo seems to lack a particle. The words we get from them in English is not instructive. Additionally, etymonline says pensare is a frequentative of pendere, which surprises me. What's the nature of the verbs? ÷seresin 22:20, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

You don't say what language; I'm assuming Latin. You can take a look at wikt:pendo#Latin and wikt:pendeo#Latin. I'm not sure they exactly clear things up, but see what you can make of it. --Trovatore (talk) 22:27, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Oh, by the way, I don't think they're "identical in the infinitive". If I've understood correctly, the infinitive of pendo is pendere (third conjugation) whereas the infinitive of pendeo is pendēre (second conjugation). --Trovatore (talk) 22:30, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
[See also wikt:pesi#Esperanto ("to weigh", transitive) and wikt:pezi#Esperanto ("to weigh", intransitive).
Wavelength (talk) 22:52, 16 September 2014 (UTC)]
Cassell's New Latin Dictionary (5th edition, 1968) defines them this way:
  • pendeo
  • (1) to hang suspended; transferred: (a) to hang upon, (b) to originate from, (c) to hang upon the lips of anyone, listen attentively
  • (2) to hang loose or free, hover, hang poised; transferred: (a) to be suspended, discontinued, (of persons) to hang about, (b) to be in suspense, be uncertain, undecided
  • pendo
  • (1) transitive: to cause to hang down, hence to weigh, especially to pay; transferred: (a) to weigh, consider, judge, (b) to value, esteem, (c) [with poenas, supplicia] to pay a penalty, suffer punishment
  • (2) intransitive: to weigh
So it appears that pendeo is always intransitive while pendo is mostly transitive. (Some of the definitions of pendeo, like "hang upon", look transitive, but the Latin examples shown use prepositions.)
--65.94.51.64 (talk) 23:44, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
So pendeo is pendo's pendant! ---Sluzzelin talk 00:41, 17 September 2014 (UTC)


September 17[edit]

Legislative, vs. Statutory[edit]

I have just been asked to proofread a document and came across the following sentence:-

We need to check whether all relevant legislative, statutory and regulatory controls are in place.

To me, the first two terms (“legislative” and “statutory”) are tautological. Is this true? CoeurDeHamster (talk) 09:14, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Statutory means "of or relating to a statute", whereas legislative means "of or relating to legislation". If we take the strict meaning of the word statute, it means only primary legislation that has been enacted by the legislature, and does not include secondary legislation (also known as delegated or subsidiary legislation) that is issued by authorized cabinet ministers or government agencies. However, all primary and secondary legislation can be rightly called legislation. Understood thus, legislative has a slightly wider ambit than statutory. But since legislative is the wider term, mentioning both legislative and statutory seems redundant. — Cheers, JackLee talk 09:46, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
In the UK, secondary legislation is implemented by means of a Statutory Instrument. Not sure if I'm helping though! Alansplodge (talk) 20:10, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
In the US, most governments are split into legislative, executive, and judicial branches. Statutes come out of the legislative branch (for the most part) and regulations come out of the executive branch (under authority given by statutes). I have not seen "legislative" encompass anything the executive or judicial branch does. So I would say "legislative" and "statutory" are synonymous in that context, with "statutory" being clearer. Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 23:34, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Handwritten Italian lines[edit]

Can anyone make out the handwritten lines below the drawing at the bottom left of the sheet? They seem to be in Italian but I could be wrong. I'm afraid there doesn't appear to be a higher resolution version of this file. — Cheers, JackLee talk 09:46, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

The caption is definitely in Italian. It reads "Il famoso [illegible superscript] pittore Francesco Clein/ miracolo (?) dell secolo [illegible character] molto estimato dell R. Carlo della grande Britagna. 1646" I could have misread the word I've transcribed as "miracolo," as the script is a bit hard for me to read. This translates to "The famous [...] painter Francis Clein, miracle (?) of the [...] century, greatly esteemed by King Charles of Great Britain. 1646". Marco polo (talk) 12:45, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, that fits with information we know about Francis Cleyn. I'll add it to the file description page. Perhaps Cleyn was described as a "miracle" because his artistic abilities were highly sought after – see our article. Also, since the date is indicated as "1646", might the illegible numeral be "17th [century]"? — Cheers, JackLee talk 12:47, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
I think the illegible superscript is a superlative suffix -mo, converting "famoso" into "famosissimo" (or whatever the correct spelling is), i.e. "most famous". And I think the illegible single character is an ampersand, so it's "miracle of the century and greatly esteemed...". (You're supposed to know which century you're in.) --65.94.51.64 (talk) 13:06, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Yes to both. Fut.Perf. 13:15, 17 September 2014 (UTC)y
(e/c) I don't think it's "Il famoso [illegible superscript]..." but rather "Il famoss. [illegible superscript]" - that is to say, it looks like an abbreviated word beginning "famoss" and of which the superscript forms part. DuncanHill (talk) 13:11, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
That makes perfect sense. Thanks, all! (P.S. I e-mailed the Lewis Walpole Library at Yale University, the source of the file, in case they wish to update their records.) — Cheers, JackLee talk 13:44, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Here is the response I received from the Curator of Prints, Drawings, and Paintings of the Lewis Walpole Library: "Many thanks for your email. I appreciate both the transcription/translation of the quote and pointing out the date error. You are absolutely correct George Vertue did not execute this drawing in 1646. / I will be sure to make corrections as soon as possible. We are currently unable to do updates to the database while awaiting a technology update." — Cheers, JackLee talk 20:10, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

British English term?[edit]

What would the British English term be for this item? A jumper? Dismas|(talk) 10:12, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

A fleece? (Wiktionary, sense 4.) — Cheers, JackLee talk 10:26, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Or a pullover. "Sweater#Nomenclature" makes interesting reading. — Cheers, JackLee talk 12:55, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
I wouldn't call it a fleece - it says it's made out of terry cotton, which isn't fleece-like. Nor would I call it a jumper, not wooly enough. Pullover would probably cover it, or just top (as in, "That's a nice top, is it new?") DuncanHill (talk) 13:00, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
On that website, it's under "sweaters", which is ok, but "sweatshirt" might be better, or, as DuncanHill says, "top". It's not a fleece, nor a jumper. Bazza (talk) 13:40, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Sweatshirt doesn't seem to be a very British term. — Cheers, JackLee talk 13:47, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
English adopts words from all sorts of exotic countries. When we get a new item of clothing from abroad, we generally just borrow the foreign name for it - pyjamas and t-shirt spring to mind. We Britons have however, drawn the line at sweatpants, since pants are underwear in the UK and it conjures up a most unpleasant mental image - we've gone with "jogging bottoms" which is only marginally better in my opinion. Alansplodge (talk) 17:20, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Though it does perhaps conjure nicer images, depending of course on how optimistic the individual imagination. --Trovatore (talk) 17:46, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Indeed. Alansplodge (talk) 18:12, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks to these Brits, "bottoms" equals "mud flaps" to me, and "jogging" consequently becomes "jostling". I also can't take "trousers" seriously, because of the snake. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:27, September 17, 2014 (UTC)
Point of order, none of them were born in Britain, and only one of them has even dual citizenship. --Jayron32 00:50, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
But I heard the fictional band play it. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:02, September 18, 2014 (UTC)
What, an American actor can't play a British character? —Tamfang (talk) 07:24, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
Jayron was merely correcting IH's statement that Spinal Tap were British. --Viennese Waltz 10:18, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
The members of Spinal Tap are fictional characters (notwithstanding marketing developments after the film), and they are presumably British. --Trovatore (talk) 18:20, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
When you put "these Brits" it sounded like you were referring to the actors in the film. --Viennese Waltz 18:42, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
When you say "you", are you referring to me? If so, the correct word is "you". Anyway, yeah, it was ambiguous. Glad we've figured it out. Wouldn't want to look stupid. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:02, September 21, 2014 (UTC)

It's a fleece. It would be a hoodie if it had a hood; and both of these terms describe something to wear over a tshirt, usually outside on a windy/cold dry day. 'Sweatshirt' implies a long sleeved garment without a tshirt below. 'Pullover' is acceptable but more generic and out-dated term. Admittedly $70 isn't the first price to be triggered by the word 'fleece.'--2.100.80.135 (talk) 17:52, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Do they ever teach etymology in schools?[edit]

--66.190.99.112 (talk) 11:59, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm sure some school somewhere teaches it. Likely even two. --Jayron32 12:22, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
I took it in high school circa 1990. Dismas|(talk) 13:03, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I was certainly taught about the idea of etymologies and how they work in junior high school Latin class, when we had to find English descendants of Latin vocabulary words, but I've never heard of a school (or even a university Linguistics Department) teaching a course called Etymology. Pais (talk) 14:18, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
I had a class called "Greek and Latin roots of English", which was all about etymology (I took it because it would be easy and I got 102% overall, haha). Our linguistics department also had a historical linguistics class, which is kind of related to etymology. Lots of schools have a History of the English Language class, which would discuss etymology too. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:55, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
How did you get 102%? Did your school not have anyone on the staff who could count? DuncanHill (talk) 17:55, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
The entire class was likely offered some extra credit work where doing more work than was was in the course assignments would give them extra points. It's often used to help kids not fail or to keep having a "bad day" affect your grade a lot. "Oh, you lost the assignment? You can do extra credit to make up for it." If Adam had received 100s on all his regular assignments and then did some or all of the extra credit, it would be possible to get 102%. See Extra credit. WHAAOE!! Dismas|(talk) 18:20, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Yup, exactly, plus bonus questions on tests that were supposed to be impossibly hard. Adam Bishop (talk) 20:11, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
In both Eng Lang and Eng Litt at school we were encouraged to look up historical usages and etymologies to deepen our understanding of texts. I should just note that by "school" I mean "school" - a building occupied by children and their keepers, not "university" - a place where people who are too old to be kept at school go to have all the nonsense that was put into them at school taken out again. DuncanHill (talk) 17:55, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
  • As opposed to the focus on literature in all my other grades, and spelling in elementary school, in tenth grade English we had almost no literature, and focused on grammar, vocabulary, irregular verbs, and greek and latin roots. This was preparatory for taking the SAT. We never had explicit etymology as such, but taking French was a class in etymology (and even English spelling) by proxy. μηδείς (talk) 18:46, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Question about Chinese name[edit]

Is the Chinese name in File:TauBayHouston.JPG 飛機? Or are they not the right characters?

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 12:40, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Those are the right characters. They seemed weird to me at first, because they mean "airplane", but then I discovered that the Vietnamese name of the restaurant means something like "flying boat" (a type of airplane). Perhaps the name memorializes the Vietnam War in some way. Marco polo (talk) 12:59, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 14:58, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

It is a reference to the noodle dish phở tàu bay (airplane pho), an supersized variation of traditional pho.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 23:11, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Strangely, if wikt:飛機#Vietnamese is correct, 飛機 isn't even pronounced tầu bay, it's pronounced phi cơ, which certainly seems a better match with Mandarin fēijī, Cantonese fei1 gei1, and Min Nan hui-ki. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:58, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Friday the start of the weekend ?[edit]

is Friday evening the beginning of the weekend I know Saturday & Sunday are the weekend days.But is Friday evening the beginning/start of the weekend. thank you♥ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hayjude777 (talkcontribs) 18:15, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Ha! I once got grounded for the weekend but went out Friday night, it not technically being the weekend. The final decision was the punishment had been ambiguous, so I ended up haveing the grounding postponed until the next Friday night through Sunday bedtime. That meant I had to stay in my room, read my books, listen to my stereo, and watch my TV. μηδείς (talk) 18:52, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Workweek and weekend is ambiguous on this, which makes sense as it is really a matter of opinion and varies across and within cultures. I would hazard a guess that most North Americans would say the weekend starts Friday night - if I make plans to go away "for the weekend", I usually depart after work on Friday, not first thing Saturday. But if you asked me which days of the week are the weekend, I wouldn't say that Friday was one of them. - EronTalk 19:00, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
WP:OR warning. I agree with Eron that most North Americans consider when they get off work on Friday evening to be the beginning of their weekend. This is also used in a similar fashion by those who work a non-traditional work schedule such as myself. Wednesday morning is the end of my work rotations. I and many people who I work with will answer "It's Friday!" to the question of "How's it going?" on a Wednesday morning. Furthermore, they'll refer to the days we have off (Wednesday through either Saturday or Sunday depending on our schedule that week) as "our weekend". I've also heard this from other non-traditional work schedule people such as those who work as paramedics, nurses, police officers, etc. So, while there's a technical definition of weekend days, there is also a cultural/popular definition. And a Google search for the specific term "It's my weekend" tends to verify this. That said, for everyone, It's Five O'Clock Somewhere. Dismas|(talk) 19:12, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Well everyone of a certain age in the UK knows that at 5pm on Friday, "The Weekend Starts Here"! --TammyMoet (talk) 19:53, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Those of us of a younger certain age know that "It's Friday, it's five to five... it's Crackerjack! CRACKERJACK!!!!!!!!!DuncanHill (talk) 21:24, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
In my Ontario high school, most of the teachers didn't like (or didn't want to seem like they liked) working us hard on Fridays. Usually no new homework, but something to prepare for by Monday. So the weekend for the drinkers started on Thursday night and Saturday became the rest day. Sunday was sort of the day where school mattered out of school, like Friday was where regular life mattered in school. Buffer days, I guess.
The only job I had since with a regular shift was Monday-Thursday, so I guess I have to go with Thursday. Never had a Casual Friday, but I guess that's a bit of the same deal. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:38, September 17, 2014 (UTC)
I grew to hate and dread casual Fridays. My second-last job was policy analysis/advice at a private health insurance fund, and that required lots of writing and thinking and discussion of minute detail and consideration of all manner of weird possibilities and scenarios. A quiet environment was essential for this activity. Mostly I got that, but on Fridays everyone was in their jeans or weekend clobber, and psychologically the weekend began at 8:30 am on Friday. Everyone was in what I call "party mode", in which the amount, speed and volume of conversation were all magnified. Most people seemed to be able to function normally in this environment, but not me, I would just get stressed out. This had a lot to do with why I left that job and went, after a self-imposed hiatus, to what became my final job prior to retirement (but the less said about that job, the better). -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 23:05, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
I always preferred causal Fridays... where everyone just made stuff happen all day... --Jayron32 02:11, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Ya, a crud fails. A scary flu aid? A racy AIDS flu? A daily fur sac? Dry us a facial! InedibleHulk (talk) 08:08, September 18, 2014 (UTC)
When I was posted from Cambridge (the real one) to our St Louis office for a few months in 1990, I accepted that I needed to start wearing a shirt and tie. But when they told me about dress-down Friday, I honestly thought they were winding me up, as it was a self-evidently daft idea. Having a dress code means that the management valued our appearance above our comfort, so on what possible grounds might they reverse that on an occasional day? --ColinFine (talk) 22:12, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
It was a tacit admission by management that their imposed requirement of formal dress was arbitrary and capricious nonsense. --Orange Mike | Talk 00:34, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
Casual Friday is probably of enormous cultural significance. Bus stop (talk) 00:57, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

September 18[edit]

Arabic or Persian transcription request[edit]

What is the Arabic or Persian of File:JordanImportedBakery.JPG and File:IRICIranianinHouston.JPG? Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 02:07, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Both are Persian. The first one is (سوپر و قنادی جردن) and the second one (بنیاد اسلامی و فرهنگی ایرانیان). Omidinist (talk) 03:46, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Thank you WhisperToMe (talk) 09:42, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Referring to a Polish husband-wife pair by a single surname[edit]

This article has had a few title changes, but I'm not sure we've got it just right yet. Originally it was Death and state funeral of Lech Kaczyński, then Death and state funeral of Lech Kaczyński and Maria Kaczyńska, and now Death and state funeral of Lech and Maria Kaczyńska.

The only mention of the surname is now the female version Kaczyńska, and that's only because Maria was mentioned last, being the spouse of the notable person. It seems odd for a male Pole to seem to be sharing his wife's surname, rather than the other way around. I don't know how the Poles would deal with this, but the real question is, how should English speakers deal with it? My hunch is to use the male version, if one has to be chosen. I think we'd be talking about "Vladimir and Lyudmila Putin", not "Vladimir and Lyudmila Putina", although Lyudmila Putina by herself of course takes the female version. I can't readily think of any similar cases for guidance. Any ideas? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 02:55, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

This doesn't help for English, but the Polish version uses the genitive plural, which is the same for both masculine and feminine. Once again, noun declensions solve everything. Adam Bishop (talk) 09:26, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Jack's position, bolstered by the Putin example. There are two principles that support using the masculine version in this case: 1) When people from Slavic countries migrate to English-speaking ones, their children almost always simply use the masculine form of the surname. It is the unmarked version. 2) In this case, the more notable of the two is Lech Kaczyński, and the article title should facilitate web searches. People are more likely to be looking for information on the funeral of Lech Kaczyński than of his wife. Therefore, the article title should use Lech's form of the surname. To avoid antagonizing people who think that agreement should be with the last item in a series, maybe the article title should be "Death and state funeral of Maria and Lech Kaczyński". Marco polo (talk) 13:25, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the support about using Kaczyński rather than Kaczyńska, Marco. I'm not wedded to your last idea, however. We generally have a "ladies and gentlemen" order thing in our culture, but when it comes to specific couples being mentioned, it's always the notable person/VIP first and then their spouse who are referred to. For example it would be "Barack and Michelle/Mrs Obama" but (before ennoblement) "Margaret and Denis/Mr Thatcher". It would seem odd to see "Death and state funeral of Michelle and Barack Obama", so I don't favour that order merely to satisfy a problem of incompatibility between Polish and English orthography. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 19:38, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

There are also the plural forms of the surnames: Lech and Maria Kaczyńscy, Vladimir and Lyudmila Putiny (Путины). I'm a native speaker of a Slavic language, and for what it's worth (it's probably not worth much), "Lech and Maria Kaczyńska" sounds awful to me even in English. --Theurgist (talk) 19:02, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

The plural form, "Lech and Maria Kaczyńscy", sounds best to me as well, but I'm a native Polish speaker. The only alternative reference that would be acceptable to my ears is a complete split: "Lech Kaczyński and Maria Kaczyńska". — Kpalion(talk) 19:33, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Tibetan text transcription request[edit]

Is anyone interested in transcribing File:Restaurant for People, Shigatse. 1993.JPG? It has Tibetan text

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 09:40, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

I think the Tibetan reads "མད་ཚོགས་ཟ་ཁད་།", though the third character might possibly be ཚཽ instead of ཚོ (i.e. have a long instead of a normal o-vowel sign). - Lindert (talk) 14:31, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 14:43, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Looks to me more like "མང་ཚོགས་ཟ་ཁང་།". The word "མང་ཚོགས་" means public, and "ཟ་ཁང་" means restaurant. --Amble (talk) 18:20, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
You're right, I stand corrected. - Lindert (talk) 18:40, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Formating Russian image files so that they appear in English Wikis[edit]

Hi, I've found lots of great images on the russian pages but I can't figure out how to format the image files so that they appear on English language pages. Here's an example Файл:Madamin-bek.jpg, I thought it should just be File:Madamin-bek.jpg but when I type this I just get this:

Monopoly31121993 (talk) 18:34, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

You're doing the formatting correctly. The problem isn't in wikimarkup but in where the images are stored (and in licensing). Most images used in Wikipedia articles are stored in Wikimedia Commons so that they can be used in English Wikipedia, Russian Wikipedia, and all the others. Some images are instead stored directly in one of the wikis. The one you linked to, Madamin-bek.jpg, exists on the Russian Wikipedia at ru:Файл:Madamin-bek.jpg, but it doesn't exist in English-language Wikipedia or on Commons. That means there's no way to link to it from English Wikipedia. The file page on ru.wikipedia says that the source is unknown, the author is unknown, and additional information is needed for the public domain claim. This is probably why the image hasn't been moved to Commons; Commons has very strict requirements for licensing and doesn't accept any files that are fair use or uncertain. If you're able to find more information and sort out the licensing questions, you might be able to get it moved to commons. I'm not an expert on those issues but you might be able to get help at Commons:Village_pump. You could also just upload the file directly to English Wikipedia, although it could still get challenged for the same reasons. --Amble (talk) 18:52, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
If you can make a list of all the files you're interested and post on the Commons Village Pump, you should be able to get some advice on whether the files can be transferred there. --Amble (talk) 18:55, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Ok, thank you this is very helpful. I will post them there and hope for the best. Cheers!Monopoly31121993 (talk) 19:03, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

September 19[edit]

Latin caption of a 1669 engraving of Edward Coke[edit]

1669 engraving of Sir Edward Coke

The Latin caption of the engraving states: "Vera Effigies Viri Clariss EDOARDI COKE Equitis aurati nuper Capitalis Iusticiarij ad Placita coram Rege tenenda assignati". I translated it into English as: "True portrait from life of the illustrious EDWARD COKE, knight, recently Chief Justice assigned to hold pleas before the King". Did I get it right? Sir Edward Coke was Chief Justice of the Common Pleas between 1606 and 1613, and then Chief Justice of the King's Bench from 1613 to 1616. — SMUconlaw (talk) 16:48, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Nearly. "Tenenda" is gerundive, not gerund, and agrees with "placita". "Recently appointed Chief Justice for Pleas to be held before the King". --ColinFine (talk) 22:59, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
On a legal point, the coram rege is the Court of King's Bench rather than the Court of Common Pleas (de banco). Coke held both offices, and the caption refers specifically to his appointment to the King's Bench. I would recommend making this explicit in the translation - "recently appointed Chief Justice of the King's Bench". Tevildo (talk) 08:35, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks very much! — SMUconlaw (talk) 14:02, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

September 20[edit]

se le[edit]

What’s the difference between ‘se le dio’ and ‘se lo dio?’ --66.190.99.112 (talk) 06:34, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

The difference between an indirect object and a direct object, I believe; possible meanings include, respectively, "he gave himself to her" and "she gave him to herself" (if we can trust my very limited Spanish). —Tamfang (talk) 08:37, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Clutching genitals at night[edit]

Is there an English term, either technical or non-, for the phenomenon of a man clutching his genitals in bed as he's drifting off to sleep? Khemehekis (talk) 06:55, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Bobbitt-phobia? Clarityfiend (talk) 07:38, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Masturbation? —Tamfang (talk) 08:41, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Comfort?--Shantavira|feed me 08:43, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Protecting the family jewels. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:09, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

"Clutching"? Is that what you really mean? That implies a grasp of almost painful strength. μηδείς (talk) 16:54, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

That would be a clutch cargo. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:06, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Old schoolboy joke - Q: "Why do women rub their eyes in the morning? A: "Because they don't have testicles!" Alansplodge (talk) 22:19, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
I'd go with either camel clutch or cobra clutch. They're sometimes used as euphemisms for masturbation, since at least Beavis and Butthead's day, but I think they'd apply more firmly to this. No movement here, like a piledriver or Frankensteiner. More a submission than an attack, probably based on a time when humans were wise to guard the jewels at night, like Bugs says. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:33, September 20, 2014 (UTC)

Help with some slightly vulgar German please.[edit]

I am trying to find the common German verb for 'to cum'. I have found spritzen and also ejakulieren, but they both seem to be specifically about ejaculation - and a female does not ejaculate. Is there a verb that refers, generally to orgasm without being specifically about ejaculation so that it could apply to a female? I am not looking for a term that belongs in a medical textbook but rather one that a male lover might use to his female lover. It is, therefore, likely to be a vulgar term as 'cum' is in English. Can someone help me please? Gurumaister (talk) 11:13, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

The most colloquial one I can come up with is "kommen" (I mean meaning #5. The verb does also simply mean "to come"). It's certainly not medical or scientific, but there's nothing graphic or "dirty" about it either. It's what most people would use to describe that moment, particularly when it's about how soon or late it happens. --Sluzzelin talk 12:11, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Sluzzelin. So the Germans use the same verb (to come) as we do when they are speaking colloquially? So, "Ich komme" would be a normal way for a woman to tell her lover that she is in the middle of an orgasm? If so then that is really helpful. Thank you. Gurumaister (talk) 12:20, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it's comparable to English use, and yes it would be a normal way to tell one's lover. ---Sluzzelin talk 12:24, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

You are a star! - and we might ask you to the wedding if we get that far  :-) Gurumaister (talk) 12:32, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

There is such a thing as female ejaculation, by the way. Adam Bishop (talk) 17:08, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Men at least can also use it impersonally with the dative: "Mir kommt's". I don't know if a woman can say it that way too, though. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:53, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Big country/big city[edit]

When we say "a country is big", we usually mean the area. However, when we say "a city is big", we usually mean the population. Why is it like that? --2.246.24.240 (talk) 14:09, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Big is an ambiguous word. In any context (country, state, province, city, neighborhood, family, whatever) it can mean both area or population. That's why one must be more specific in writing or speaking. --Jayron32 17:52, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
But the most common meaning is what I mentioned. Do people just don't care about the area of a city? --2.246.24.240 (talk) 18:30, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Higher population centers do tend to take up more space, though. And whether either a city or a country is "big" depends on what you're comparing it to. Folks from the Minneapolis-St. Paul metro area tend to think of Chicagoland as a big city. Folks from St. Cloud tend to think of Minneapolis-St. Paul as a big city (or cities). Folks from rural towns tend to think of St. Cloud as a big city. And so on. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:05, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
City/municipal/political/local government boundaries create confusion about the number of people in population centres. There is no uniform global definition of a city. Most of the world thinks of a city as a place with a lot of people, but the US, at least, doesn't. See Soldier, Kansas. My city, Melbourne, Australia has 4.5 million people in it, but is made up of many local government areas. An arbitrary boundary is accepted for coming up with the 4.5 million people. In Australia, Brisbane is the biggest city geographically, but it only has half the population of Melbourne. HiLo48 (talk) 19:20, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I suggest that the answer is simply that the area of a city has no importance except to people within the scope of its local government, whereas its population is important in other contexts. So we use "big" to refer to that virtual measurement. With countries, on the other hand, area and population are both important, so we use "big" with its natural meaning of physical size (i.e. area) and use other terms to refer to population. --65.94.51.64 (talk) 22:05, 20 September 2014 (UTC)


I think it's because the very function of a city is as a population center. A city forms essentially at a point, where some people live, and then more people move to it. The boundaries extend as necessary to fit the growing population. People go to the city because of the concentration of people in it, so its very character is defined by those people. Hence, the more people there are, the more city there is. Countries form for other purposes. The territories of countries are set up to exhaust the land available and everything else about the country follows from those territorial boundaries. In the same way, "big" when referring to a school usually refers to the number of students rather than the size of its campus, and with reference to a bank, it's most likely to refer to the amount of its assets. Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 23:19, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Big Country? Loved 'em. And not just because I live in one. Mostly remembered for the "In a Big Country" single, but Steeltown was their strongest album, IMHO. --Shirt58 (talk) 01:22, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

“None will level on the line” meaning[edit]

In the song All along the watchtower by Jimi Hendrix, there's a verse:

"Businessmen, they, they drink my wine, Plowmen dig my earth, None will level on the line, Nobody of it is worth"

Can some tell me what does "None will level on the line" mean? Thanks 2.179.237.208 (talk) 14:33, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Also please tell me what does "All along" mean in the title. Does it mean "in the way of watchtower"? -- 2.179.237.208 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 14:35, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Bob Dylan wrote the song, and according to his official site, the lyrics are "None of them along the line know what any of it is worth". "Along the line" seems to be a bit of a filler phrase, but the meaning seems to be that the narrator is looking at the businessmen and ploughmen from one to another and judging them to be ignorant and complacent.
"Along" is an unusual preposition to go with "the watchtower", but the next line is "princes kept the view", so it seems Dylan is thinking of the watchtower as a castle, and the princes are lined up along the rampart of the castle. That's my impression, anyway. --Nicknack009 (talk) 14:52, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
See prosody (music). Words are often chosen to fit the music of the song, and not necessarily because they make "sense" It's one of the distinctions between lyrical writing versus prose writing: consideration in lyrical writing (poetry and song lyrics) to the sounds of the word and how they fit into rhythm, meter, and "feel" of the song. Actually making sense is can be of secondary concern. Also worth noting here is a few things. 1) Hendrix recorded his version after only a few listens to Dylan's original. It's quite likely he misremembered a lyric or two. Indeed, Dylan liked Hendrix's changes (both lyrically and sonically) that he started playing it Hendrix's way. 2) Tower doesn't just mean a tall skinny building. As an older meaning, tower meant merely a fortress or castle. That's the sense used in the Tower of London. But all of this doesn't matter. It's still music, and not documentary. It isn't always trying to make sense. It's just trying to sound interesting and entertaining. --Jayron32 17:50, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
I would interpret (within lyrical context) "None will level on the line" as meaning something like "none of them will speak the truth" or "...explain what's going one", combined with the next line, something like "nothing that they say is worthwhile". I haven't read it but a rather lengthy 2-part analysis of the lyrics can be found here:[5]   —71.20.250.51 (talk) 00:23, 21 September 2014 (UTC)