Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 March 18

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March 18

Cross-Purposes

What is the etymology of cross purposes?174.3.98.20 (talk) 03:57, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

It is just a case of the adjective "cross" being used in a sense that is now rare, except in this particular phrase. From the OED: "contrary, opposite, opposed (to each other, or to something specified). (Now rarely predicative.)"--Rallette (talk) 08:25, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Virtually the opposite meaning of "cross" in 'cross-reference', which connects 2 things rather than separates them. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 10:38, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

It's not that rare: compare "cross traffic", "cross talk". --Normansmithy (talk) 14:16, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

And don't forget crossing swords (what, no article ?). :-) StuRat (talk) 16:20, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Here's your article:-) I'd do it for fore play tho.174.3.98.20 (talk) 20:15, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

All forms derive from the Latin crux, and most all the ideas involve two lines crossing, as with the letter "X", which is often used as a symbol for the word "cross". Given that shape, it can imply opposites or interference, as with cross purposes, crossed swords, cross talk. It can also imply intersection, as with cross reference and a genetic cross. Cross traffic and a railroad crossing are a bit of both. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:21, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Along those lines, the ancient Sumerian cuneiform sign originally meaning either "stranger or enemy" originally had the shape of two diagonally crossed lines (a saltire). AnonMoos (talk) 02:06, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Now there's "cross post" (as in "Please do not cross post to different ref desks"). I see that one as a redundant use of "cross"; take it out of the sentence and you've lost none of the meaning. -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 02:24, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. To post to a different desk sounds like it means to move a post, which is fine. The term "cross post" means to post the same Q on 2 or more Desks at once. StuRat (talk) 03:02, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

hmmmm... where does that leave cross-dressers? should we take that to mean priests? --Ludwigs2 02:58, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Men who dress like women. An intersection. Although the Latin roughly-equivalent "transvestite" employs the Latin trans ("across" or "through"), as the Romans themselves evidently didn't use crux that way in general. That's more of an English idiom, and we also use "crux" to mean a key point or a "crossing" in a dilemma or other puzzling situation. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:07, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

That's a heritage of Usenet, and I'd argue that it's used here incorrectly. In original usage, "crossposting" refers to post to multiple groups/forums simultaneously, i.e. the same instance of the thread simultaneously appears in different groups (forums). That is in contrast to "multipost", meaning that you send distinct copies of the message in each group, and subsequent discussions are independent of each other. With those definitions in place, we're actually talking about "multiposting" here. One can actually crosspost a message to multiple Wikipedia reference desks only if he takes care to create a separate page for it, and transclude it into desk pages. No such user (talk) 08:32, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

acb

wp:acb redirects to wp:bp. What does "acb" mean?174.3.98.20 (talk) 14:42, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

"Account-creation block" would be my guess, considering the specific section of WP:BP that WP:ACB redirects to. Deor (talk) 14:52, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Charles The Fat

The 1st foot note mentions girth. Is this the thickness of his penis, the length of his penis, or his weight?174.3.98.20 (talk) 19:48, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

His weight. —Akrabbim^talk 19:55, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

"Girth" in general refers to the distance around a belly, so it is related to weight, but it is not the same thing as weight. It is more often used about animals than people, but when it is used for people, it usually means the person is bigger around than the norm for his/her height. I have never heard "girth" in reference to a skinny person or even one of average size. Bielle (talk) 01:27, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Is this kind of like Gresham's law where sexual usages drive out neutral usages? In the US, girth is probably used with reference to the male organ much more than for other purposes --达伟 (talk) 08:12, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

See Girth and Girth. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:58, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

I not convinced that "penis girth" comes up, as it were, much in conversation. It would seem to be an internet phenomenon and only in written form. The only group to whom "penis girth" could be of consuming conversational interest is likely to be teenaged boys, but I still doubt they use "girth" in the "mine is bigger than yours" taunting. However, being long past teenage years, and never having been a boy, my knowledge of their vocabulary may well be incomplete. (It strikes me a mildly amusing that a word that nomally tends one to think of things of circumference measured in meters/yards should be used in marketing for so small a matter as a penis. "The girth of my penis is X inches/centimeters" just sounds silly.) With respect to the question we are answering, however, belly circumference is the likely answer. Bielle (talk) 16:37, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

While the members of the various Girth and Mirth clubs are likely also be interested in comparative penis size, the "girth" of their title does refer rather to belly circumference. +Angr 17:01, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Etymology

What is the etymology of "water under the bridge"?174.3.98.20 (talk) 20:08, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

I used my Google-fu and googled "water under the bridge" definition and there are many explanations. The fourth link opines: "It means that something is in the past and no longer important. My sister and I fought when we were children, but that's water under the bridge. I think the analogy is that water under the bridge is constantly moving toward the sea. That's a little abstract, so you might also imagine dropping a leaf into the water from atop a bridge. By watching the leaf float down river you'd be witnessing the progress of the water." Comet Tuttle (talk) 22:43, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

I would think this term would come from a flood, which could knock down a bridge. On the other hand, the water that's already passed is "water under the bridge", meaning nothing to worry about anymore. StuRat (talk) 03:09, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Or nothing you can do anything about. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:12, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that's the meaning of it, Bugs. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 04:41, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Nothing to worry about anymore; nothing you can do anything about anymore. Pretty much the same idea. Or "It's in the past and can't be changed". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:52, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

The OED lumps the expression in with "various similative and figurative phrases, many of which are of biblical origin." It gives examples of these "various" phrases going back to the Blickling Homilies, but the first "water under the bridge/over the dam/under the mill/over the dyke" example cited is from Wireless World, 1913: "Much water has flowed under London Bridge since those days," this apparently drifting to Kipling, 1914: "Your articles..are a little too remote..but of course{em}much water, or shall we say much blood, has flowed under the bridges since they were written." Neither of these really implies the 'nothing to be done/worry about' meaning of the expression; the first citation that seems to carry that meaning in the OED is from a 1940 Nation article: "Last year's results are water under the mill." By C.S. Forester's Good Shepard," 1955, the 'nothing to be done' meaning is clearly there: "He should not have brought the men to battle stations at all... But that was water over the dam; no time for regrets at present." Some jerk on the Internet (talk) 13:09, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

"dirty laundry"

What is the etymology and meaning of "put up one's dirty laundry" or "put up (insert name here)'s dirty laundry"?174.3.98.20 (talk) 20:44, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Others can help with the origin of the phrase, but I know the meaning: It means to air one's private grievances or arguments in public. A husband and wife at the supermarket openly arguing about their marital problems would be "airing their dirty laundry". Related is the song Dirty Laundry. Comet Tuttle (talk) 22:47, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

I would expect that the source of this is all the personal things you can determine by looking at a family's dirty laundry: "Looks like Johnny's bed wetting is back, and Mom's on the rag again, and what's that ? Is someone doing some anal sex ?". StuRat (talk) 03:06, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

I remember back when I was a teenager and just starting to have sex I accidentally left a condom in my pants pocket, and my mother wandered (dare I say snuck) into my room while I was sleeping to collect laundry. she was actually fairly cool about it - she got my little brother to pretend as though he had found it. like I would really believe my little brother would be doing the laundry at 8:00 am; but I pretended and bribed him to keep quiet about it so that he could pretend that he wasn't going to tell my ma, so that she could pretend that...

and they say relationships are built on trust.

I suspect it's just that - certain stains you don't want to be seen cleaning down at the river bank; don't want to bring those out into the open air if you can help it, because everybody knows what caused them. --Ludwigs2 03:42, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

I do not think the phrase has an origin in literal dirty laundry. Dirty laundry is simply something one doesn't wear because it is presumably soiled beyond wearability. Airing one's dirty laundry is resurrecting what has been retired from one's wardrobe due to defect. I don't have familiarity with it being used as the OP is using it. I generally hear of "airing one's dirty laundry," or "airing one's dirty laundry in public." All that is being referred to, in my opinion, is the impropriety of that general thing which is to be kept from public sight, inappropriately on full view. But real dirty laundry is unsightly, and the reference works that way too, I guess. Bus stop (talk) 03:54, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Then why wouldn't it be "wearing dirty laundry" instead of "airing" ? StuRat (talk) 03:58, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

I can only guess. Because wearing brings up a visual reference. Airing, by contrast, relates to wind which in turn bears a relation to speech. Bus stop (talk) 04:03, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

the second definition of 'air' in my dictionary it 'to express a public opinion' - it probably relates to the way speech is carried by the air. thus 'airing dirty laundry' probably means 'talking about hidden dirty stuff in public'. --Ludwigs2 04:47, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

To "air" something is to bring it out "into the open air", be it laundry, a public opinion, or a radio or TV broadcast. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:50, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm guessing too, but I suggest it's because when you air a garment you leave it in one place for a period of time, fully exposed and unattended, so anyone could happen by and see it. In a sense it's more visible than if you were just wearing it. --Anonymous, 07:23 UTC, March 19, 2010.

Too old a reference for many of you young'uns! In ancient times, after doing the wash in your wash tub, you would hang the newly clean stuff on a clothes line outdoors (during warm weather at least) to let it air-dry. Airing clean laundry was standard procedure. Airing dirty laundry would not be; it would be putting "too much information" out in the open. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:47, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Still a commonplace practice in the UK and Europe. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:56, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

OED notes the expressions "to wash one's dirty linen at home," and "to wash one's dirty linen in public,' meaning either to or not to "discuss an essentially private matter, esp. a dispute or scandal, in public." The first example it gives is Trollope's Last Chronicle of Barset (1867): "There is nothing..so bad as washing one's dirty linen in public." Merriam Webster's Online dates "dirty laundry" in the sense above to 1967, but doesn't provide a source. Some jerk on the Internet (talk) 13:27, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

See Image of local women busy doing their laundry. This photo was taken on the border of Ghana and Togo (West Africa).

-- Wavelength (talk) 14:44, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

See Laundry in the river, in Abidjan, Ivory Coast. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:49, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

It seems that the usage has evolved from merely washing laundry in public, to hanging it on the line where everyone can see it. In addition to the time-honored "hush, the neighbors will hear", the modern equivalent is people talking on cellphones in a public place, about all manner of private things, seemingly unaware (or uncaring) that they can be heard. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:48, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

There are a lot of implications. Dirty laundry is produced by all of us. Thus the emphasis is not in producing something but in the fact of it being proper to keep some things from public view. Bus stop (talk) 17:53, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:53, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

2 queries

What is "ekhm" and "red spots":[1]?

Why does he need to get "some serifs!"? What is a "server-fu" and its etymology:[2]?174.3.98.20 (talk) 21:16, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

All of the comments you are referring to are "jocular", and not Serious, like most of the Reference Desk. Sorry about that. TomorrowTime's "ekhm" appears to be the same as "ahem", used to mean "The following word is what they call themselves, but I disbelieve their use of the term". The "red spots" reference means "they would become extremely angry" or "they would be incredulous at this". The "serifs" reference is obscure; I believe the poster was referring to the fact that Apple Computer generally called their computer the "Apple ][" rather than the "Apple II"; the "]" and "[" characters have serifs, whereas "II" does not have serifs. Adding "-fu" to anything is a Silicon Valley or geek term deriving from "kung-fu". I have most often seen it on these pages in the term "Google-fu", meaning "my ability to use Google"; "my Google-fu is weak today" means "I have been unable to find what I am seeking using the Google search engine. I humbly admit that my skills at using Google are poor today." The "-fu" suffix is supposed to give an aura of mysticism. Comet Tuttle (talk) 22:38, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

The 'serif' comment was in response to my (true but probably unhelpful) remark that I read the question as about 'lle' (with two lower-case letters 'l'), which I happen to know is the Welsh for 'place', and only realised when I saw other replies that the word had two upper-case letters 'i'. In a serif font these would be distinct, but in a sans-serif font they are easily distinguishedconfused.

As Tuttle says, I was using 'server-fu' to mean "obscure and clever knowledge of what you can do with a [web] server", because I had just realised that the redirects to cy.wiktionary.org don't happen in Wikipedia when you send them, but in the web server Wikipedia uses when it receives them. --ColinFine (talk) 23:02, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

I have stricken my claim about the Apple ][. I have out-nerded you, ColinFine. Comet Tuttle (talk) 00:18, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Colin, you mean that lower-case L (l) and upper-case i (I) are not easily distinguished in a sans-serif font. (Except for Verdana, the font I read Wikipedia in, which is generally sans-serif but makes an exception for upper-case i, giving it serifs exactly in order to avoid confusion like yours.) +Angr 17:23, 19 March 2010 (UTC) True. Corrected above ColinFine (talk) 18:54, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Some sans-serif fonts put a little curl at the bottom of the lower-case L; Trebuchet MS for example. Alansplodge (talk) 18:16, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

The "-fu" suffix ultimately comes from the newspaper columns of Joe Bob Briggs... AnonMoos (talk) 01:59, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

In JBB's usage X fu means use of X as a weapon, or otherwise wacky violence involving X. In the example questioned, X fu means skill with X, not the same thing. Both of course are extensions of kung fu, which can mean either a discipline or a violent application of that discipline. I suspect independent parallel developments. —Tamfang (talk) 22:03, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

JBB was kind of the first culturally prominent example of systematically "liberating" fu to become an independent suffix. I strongly suspect influence from his writings (though possibly somewhat indirect). AnonMoos (talk) 10:19, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

的， 地， and 得

Hello all. I'm leanring Chinese, and there's a test next week. I'm having trouble with the difference between 的， 地， and 得. The meanings 地=earth and 得=earn I have no problem, but when they're used to join parts of a sentence I do have a problem. Could someone explain how I know when to use each? I especially need help when the following phrase is a compound construction, not a single noun, verb, etc. Thanks! --Richard —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.229.192.107 (talk) 23:12, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

• 的 is used as a possessive or in a relative clause: 我的车，我的衣服， etc.
• 得 is used to add an adverb (description of the action), when that adverb is the main idea of the sentence: 我说中文说得很好 "I speak Chinese well!". It is used after the verb.
• 地 is used to add an adverb when that adverb is just an extra detail, i.e. when you could remove it and wouldn't change the meaning of the sentence: 他很快地跑到市场 "he quickly ran to the store" (compare to 他跑得快 "he runs quickly"). It is used before the verb.

rʨanaɢ (talk) 23:48, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Rjanag. To be simplistic, the constructions are:

Noun/adjective - 的 - Noun

Verb - 得 - adverb/(adjective)

Adverb/(adjective) - 地 - verb --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 01:18, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

I remember this from awhile ago: http://homepage.mac.com/moogoonghwa/tsongkit/notes/dik_dei_dak.html (unfortunately it's in traditional character and given in Cantonese pronunciation.) I'm surprise to see I'm one of the contributors there, I've almost forgotten about I helped out on this. :) --Kvasir (talk) 04:52, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Here's one with all 3 in it: 他洗的衣服很快地變得乾乾淨淨。

Of course there are idiomatic expressions like this: 他說的是。(what) he says (is) right. -> He is right. --Kvasir (talk) 05:17, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

(That, however, is still a relative clause: literally "[what he says] is".) rʨanaɢ (talk) 05:28, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

My favorite short-hand is that 的 is like 's . DOR (HK) (talk) 07:18, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

的 can also mean "of", for example 加拉碧海的皇帝 = Emperor of the Caribbean. Also, 他 (he) is not the same as 地 (earth[-]), as in "earthquake" (地震). ~AH1^(TCU) 02:35, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

"of" and "'s" mean more or less the same thing anyway. As for your second comment, I don't recall anyone saying 他 and 地 were the same? rʨanaɢ (talk) 03:40, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

This is the reason why Chinese speakers have trouble with the A of B construction when first learning to speaking English. They are tempted to say B's A as in "Caribbean's Emperor". --Kvasir (talk) 04:03, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Hmm... I don't know, the users above seem to have made something easy seem complicated. To put it simple:

• 地 is used after an adjective to make it an adverb
• 得 is used when you're constructing a sentence like 'It's so X, it's Y.'
• Use 的 otherwise.

To be honest, in primary school our teachers kept making us do exercises about these three and I found them a bit annoying :P　 Kayau Voting IS evil 14:30, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

That's because in Cantonese they are all pronunced differently. In spoken Cantonese, we even use different words for 地 and 的. So there's hardly any confusion there. In Mandarin it's all de. --Kvasir (talk) 22:16, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

That's true. But, I tell you what, in primary school our teachers taught us using PTH but I still find it super easy. FYI I typed this using the pinyin input method so I kept having to choose between the 3 :) Kayau Voting IS evil 02:32, 21 March 2010 (UTC)