Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 September 4

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September 4

Can I say "that diffilcult period involved fear and hunger"?

or should I say "that difficult period was accompanied by fear and hunger"? 77.125.140.155 (talk) 11:44, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Maybe, but it depends on what the actual cause of that unnamed difficult period was. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:28, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Presumably the fear and hunger were the reason the period was difficult. "...was accompanied by" doesn't indicate the causal connection, so I would say "involved" or "entailed". Duoduoduo (talk) 17:19, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Radio 4 piece referencing Washoe the Chimp's use of 'taboo' language

Help! I've searched in every way I can think of for a link to a Radio 4 piece that referenced Washoe's use of 'dirty' as a taboo word and cannot find it. The piece was broadcast 18-30 August as part of a programme so it's not easy to find on the Radio 4 website, though I have tried. I'd really like to find the article to send to a friend interested in language. 193.60.248.48 (talk) 12:43, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Have you searched using "Radio 4 programme language washoe"? I did, and I got links to 3 Radio 4 series, 2 of which have been broadcast during the time period you specify. I haven't a clue which programme it would be, so maybe you need to have a look yourself in more depth.--TammyMoet (talk) 19:18, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Than/then

I've seen somewhere that people often writes then instead of than. E.g... I am taller then Bono. Is that correct? Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 15:34, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

It's totally wrong. "Than" is used for comparisons such as "I am taller than Robert Wadlow". "Then" generally refers to a point in time in a sequence of events, such as "First I did this, then I did that, etc." Think que vs. luego or entonces. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:40, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) That's what I thought until I hit on the I am taller then Bono thing. So I was like OMG... I've always used then as después or luego. Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 15:44, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Here is a pretty good explanation of the distinction between "than" and "then". In general I think this site is interesting. (Also this page and this page.) Bus stop (talk) 15:48, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 January 28#Common misspellings (eg. than/then, you're/your)

and Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 November 19#Whatever happened to the distinctions between there/their/they're and than/then?

and Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 August 19#Then for than (with links to four prior discussions).

—Wavelength (talk) 15:49, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking that the only way I could twist this into a valid sentence would be to put a comma in the right place. "I am taller, then my brother." That would be describing the past in present tense, and saying that I reached 6 feet in 1970, and my brother reached and surpassed that height in 1975. Which would be a ridiculous way of conveying that info. And that's why "then" is not going to be correct in the original sentence. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:36, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

It has become a pretty common typo for me. Astronaut (talk) 17:55, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Typos happen. The problem is not understanding the difference. There/their/they're and all that sort of thing. Are vs. our. etc. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:04, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Both words are very common, and - depending on dialect - may be pronounced with a schwa, rendering them homophones. From that similarity on the tongue to a mis-spelling on the page is a simple slip. BrainyBabe (talk) 20:24, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Bugs is actually correct etymologically with his "then, my brother" comment. Both words have the same origin. The difference is that "than" can never be stressed or sentence-intial under normal circumstances. But unstressed both words sound the same, hence the typos. Even when emphasized as in a citation form, unless I want to sound like a radio announcer, I normally say than, any, an, catch, many, & and & various other words (like catsup /kɛtʃʌp/) to rhyme with pen or fetch. μηδείς (talk) 21:44, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

They sound the same for some speakers. In most British dialects, the vowel in 'then' is not reduced to schwa when unstressed, so the words do not get confused. --ColinFine (talk) 22:17, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Frankly speaking I've never understood those people (usually learners) who confuse then and than. First, they have completely different meaning and functions, even if they're pronounced with schwa or if /æ/ is merged with /e/. Second, I suppose that then is always stressed, so there cannot be schwa in it.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 06:40, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

"Then" is not always stressed. It would be stressed and unreduced in "What do you want to do, then?" but in my American accent "Then what do you want to do?" in response to saying "I don't like any of those options" would often be reduced, and would have a different meaning (after that) if not reduced. μηδείς (talk) 18:07, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Many Americans pronounce "than" the same as stressed "then", namely as /ðɛn/. That would explain some people's making the spelling mistake. Duoduoduo (talk) 17:24, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

It could explain it, up to a point. But really, these words are as similar in meaning as "realize" and "real eyes" are - namely, not similar at all. Nobody would ever confuse these in practice. It must come down to lack of proper instruction/education/training, call it what you like. The saddest thing about people who confuse then/than/that, or your/you're, or there/their/they're etc ad nauseam, is that they don't even know they're making a mistake, and that's a sad indictment on our education systems. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:58, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Clover?

I've heard both clover and shamrock for trébol. What's the difference between those two words? Sorry for asking so many questions :( Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 18:28, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Clover can be the entire genus of many many species, while shamrock usually refers to the three-leaved thingy when used as a symbol, not the entire genus or organism in a botanical sense (see also es:Shamrock on Spanish Wikipedia). There are other uses and there is lack of consensus, as explained in the English article on shamrock. (There's nothing wrong with asking a lot of questions). ---Sluzzelin talk 18:37, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you so much Sluzzelin. :) Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 18:40, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

If you look it up on this site, you can infer that trébol is cognate with trefoil, coming from Latin trifolium, and originally from the Greek τρίφυλλον, likewise used to mean "clover" but literally "three-leafed plant", although some clover species have more than three leaves. "Shamrock" comes from the Irish word for "clover".[1] So it stands to reason that both would translate to trébol. And as Sluzzelin indicates, "shamrock" as an English word refers specifically to Irish culture and Saint Patrick and so on. For further amusement, check out four-leaf clover. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:08, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh, and let's not forget the guy who invented sliced bread, and developed a four-loaf cleaver. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:20, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Baseball. :) Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 19:21, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Me gusta. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:24, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Qué es lo que te gusta? :D Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 19:27, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Me gusta responder a sus preguntas. Be aware that my Spanish is high school level, and it has been a long time since high school. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:37, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

No hay problema, puedo entender perfectamente tu Español, igual que el de Medeis :D. My English is also high school level, so don't worry for it ;) Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 19:44, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Excelente. Medeis, in fact, appears to be multilingual. That's a valuable skill. I can at least read enough Spanish to have a clue about something written when it pops up on TV or in a Hispanic neighborhood. And I would have to say your English is pretty good. Practice helps, of course. :) And answering language questions is always fun for me, when it's within my range of experience. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:08, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I can speak a little bit of a few languages, but not much, here's a couple of those. Thanks for believing that my English is pretty good ;) Sometime I hit on something weird and I start to rack my brains to figure out what that is that and those are written that way and... you know, English tends to be confusing. Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 20:17, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

English can be terribly confusing even (or sometimes especially) to a native speaker. I once know a native Spanish speaker who knew only basic English. He said that English grammar rules are pretty easy to understand. It's the usage and pronunciation that can drive you crazy trying to figure out. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:24, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Prepositions kill me almost literally O_o Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 20:45, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Speaking of prepositions, the phrase is "don't worry about it", not "for" it. You can worry for a friend or person, but that means you are concerned about a future event like the result of a medical operation. μηδείς (talk) 21:25, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

• The difference between clover and shamrock is the same as the difference between iris and flor de lis. μηδείς (talk) 21:31, 4 September 2013 (UTC)