Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

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Welcome to the reliable sources noticeboard. This page is for posting questions regarding whether particular sources are reliable in context.
Before posting, please be sure to include the following information, if available: Source. The book or web page being used as the source. For a book, include the author, title, publisher, page number, etc. For an online source, please include links. For example: [http://www.website.com/webpage.html]. Article. The Wikipedia article(s) in which the source is being used. For example: [[Article name]]. Content. The exact statement(s) in the article that the source supports. Please supply a diff, or put the content inside block quotes. For example: <blockquote>text</blockquote>. Many sources are reliable for statement "X," but unreliable for statement "Y".
While we attempt to offer a second opinion, and the consensus of several editors can generally be relied upon, answers are not official policy.
Please focus your attention on the reliability of a source. This is not the place to discuss other issues, such as editor conduct. Please see dispute resolution for issues other than reliability.
If you are looking for a copy of a specific source, please ask at the resource exchange board.
The guideline that most directly relates to whether a given source is reliable is Identifying reliable sources. The policy that most directly relates is: Verifiability. If your question is about whether material constitutes original research, please use the No original research notice board. If your question is about undue weight, or other neutral point of view issues please use the NPOV noticeboard.	Sections older than 5 days archived by MiszaBot II. (For help, see Wikipedia:Purge)

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Questions on sources for the Persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union.

I would like to start a discussion on adding more content and sources to the Persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union article. I have listed some of these new sources on the article talkpage.

I would like to start with this source

• [1]

I would like to include it on the end of the sentence in the article

During the purges of 1937 and 1938, church documents record that 168,300 Russian Orthodox clergy were arrested. Of these, over 100,000 were shot.

I would like to reword the article to instead say

During the purges of 1937 and 1938, church documents record that 168,300 Russian Orthodox clergy were arrested. Of these, over 100,000 were shot. Time magazine reporter Richard N. Ostling puts the amount of executed clergy from the Soviet at an estimate of 50,000.

This leads me to my next question is the source right now in the article for the primary sentence also valid?

During the purges of 1937 and 1938, church documents record that 168,300 Russian Orthodox clergy were arrested. Of these, over 100,000 were shot.

Is Alexander Nikolaevich Yakovlev and his book "A century of violence in Soviet Russia" which is published by Yale press.[2] There currently is an anonymous IP edit warring on the article attacking Yakovlev in some very ugly ways. It appears that the IP is not able to be banned and there may not be allot that can be done from what User talk:Rschen7754 has said here Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Jacob_Peters. So is there a way that I could also get verification and Yakovlev as a source? Thanks LoveMonkey (talk) 14:13, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

• I think these are very good RS. However, your information about someone "attacking" something, SPI investigations and specific numbers with long explanations are not needed. You should only state who was the author of the publication, the publisher, date of publication, and any additional information about the source. Your goal here is to only ask 3rd opinion about sources, rather than to prove that you are right, but someone else is wrong.My very best wishes (talk) 23:10, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• Books by insiders with no academic qualifications are usually not good sources. It is ironic that anyone would consider a book written by the Communist Party's head of the Department of Ideology and Propaganda to be reliable. TFD (talk) 11:40, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

And yet Yale Published the book in question. Also I thought he had a degree from Columbia [3] as he is referred to as a Russian historian and also was the head of the government investigation into Soviet repression.[4] That would make his perspective at least an informed one. Or at least Darrell Hammer [5] says Yakovlev has a degree in history [6] as it appears that Yakovlev is used as a valid source by a few academic articles and books that can be found on google with a simple search. [7], [8], [9], here on page 70 it says he has a PHD from the academy of Social Sciences [10] LoveMonkey (talk) 22:10, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

It is historically significant because it was written by an insider. Scholars who cite this work will be able to weigh the claims made in the book based on their expertise and fact-checking. As clearly explained in the preface, it is a personal statement not an academic work. If you think that the author's credential make everything he writes reliable, then logically we should use his pro-Communist propaganda writing as reliable sources too. TFD (talk) 15:31, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Agreed Yakovlev was anti-communist at the end of his life, though. LoveMonkey 21:48, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

TV by the numbers

Is the web page TV by the numbers a reliable source for information about TV shows including info on renewals, ratings etc? There have been prior discussions at RSN [11] [12], [13] but they have had poor participation and are inconclusive. The web site is run by two friends with no editorial oversight or assurance of accuracy or accountability. It is neither recognized or award winning in any way. This makes it clear to me that it does not meet WP:RS standards. On the other hand, supporters say its used by NY Times and other newspapers. That to me does not make any difference, but what do others think? -- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:29, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

• Since those prior discussions, TV by the Numbers has become an affiliate of Zap2it, which is part of Tribune Media Services, which is part of Tribune Company, the publisher of the Chicago Tribune, the Los Angeles Times, and other major newspapers. So there's a major media company standing behind the site now. Regardless of whether it was considered a RS in the past, it should now be recognized as a reliable source. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 15:09, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
  • That's good to know but do we have a source for that info? thanks, -- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:23, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

AllMusic review and This War Is Ours

I have been trying to explain to an editor at This War Is Ours that the genre tags/genre cloud on the left side of AllMusic reviews are not reliable sources. I have asked him to look at the archives here. Editor doesn't seem to want to. Editor offered the album's entry at Amazon.com and http://www.hellhoundmusic.com/album-review-escape-the-fate-ungrateful/ as alternative sources. I explained that Amazon.com isn't a RS not is hellhoundmusic.com. Editor has been restoring the genres in the edit cloud because the reviewer at AllMusic isn't a RS and so the editor's prose cannot be anymore reliable than the tags. I cannot explain it any better so I'll let the esteemed editors here try to explain. There is a lengthy discussion on the article's talk page, or respond here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:01, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

User:Realist2/Genre Warrior explains what I feel on this issue well. Excepting for very broad categorizations which are nearly universally agreeable to all (Rock Music, Classical Music, Jazz, etc.) most of the really fine gradations of music genres are pointlessly too specific, and often inaccurate as a result. --Jayron32 04:26, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Any other comments on whether the source is reliable or not? Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:10, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

K. P. Yohannan and Believers Church

The two articles, K. P. Yohannan and Believers Church both contain similar statements from one source. Specifically, the Believers Church statement says,

This move stunned the christian community because according to its tradition, only a priest can become a Bishop, and Mr. Yohannan was a pastor.

The source cited is here: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/an-archbishop-s-spiritual-factory/323561/2

Regardless of the truth of the statement, I think that the source fails verification because

• It looks more like a blog post or an opinion piece
• Contains mostly sensationalist claims about K. P., with a bias against him
• Does not appear to have been subjected to a fact-checking process

As such, I’m questioning whether this can be used as a source of fact. Could somebody else look this over and help decide what to do with this? Thanks.

LivingIsSimple (talk) 17:13, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

The Indian Express is a reputed newspaper in India. Benedictdilton (talk) 18:43, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

That should probably read "reputable" rather than "reputed". I have no comment on the source since the site is not responding. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:17, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

The United States Census records

Many users use the U.S. Census as the basis for the early life of an individual and even look upon it as a undoubtable source for a birthyear debate. However, there have been some mistakes (both explainable and unexplainable) to which must direct your attention;

• Don Wilson has been credited in 1930 u.S. census as living in California, Donald H. Wilson, aged 30 with his wife Lucy J. Wilson. Originally from Lincoln, Nebraska with his mother being born in Illinois. So far so good? not quite? he was born on September 1, 1900, therefore how could he have been 30 in April, 1930 (the date in which the census officially concluded). Insignificant example? Moving on...
• Janet Waldo, whose birthdate has been declared February 4, 1924, has been listed in 1920 census (January, 1920), as being 8 month old, the 1930 census (April, 1930) as being 10 years old, and in the 1940 (April, 1940) as being 16 years old. All this with her sister Elisabeth Waldo being born in 1919.
• Lauren Bacall, is the most staggering example. According to census records, the actress who has been present at multiple ceremonies and interviews since 2005, has died in 2005.

Therefore pose the question. Are these United States records considered truly a reliable source? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Radiohist (talk • contribs) 00:26, 19 May 2013

See WP:BLPPRIMARY: "Exercise caution in using primary sources. Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses". We shouldn't be using the U.S. Census as a source for birth dates at all, at least for living persons. See also note 3 on Wikipedia:No original research, which expressly identifies censuses as primary sources. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:45, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Also note that until quite recently, people were frequently regarded as one year older at the start of each calendar year. Census records are most reliable for "place of residence" and not for "precise date of birth". Collect (talk) 01:18, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Incidentally, per WP:BLPPRIVACY we have to give serious consideration to not giving exact dates of birth at all for living persons unless they have "been widely published by reliable sources, or by sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object". AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:21, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

The problem with census records is that it requires a level of interpretation (read WP:OR) which we really can't rely on. It is not impossible or even uncommon for two people with the same or similar names to have been born in or lived in the same basic geographic area at the same time and been about the same age. For example, I graduated high school with two guys who had the exact same first and last name (no idea on the middle name). Census records will have established that they lived in the same small town at the same time, but using those records to distinguish between the two is easy to screw up for Wikipedia editors. Now, if a secondary source has vetted census records, and established the birth date or birth place or any other information, we can generally trust reliable secondary sources, because reliability means that we know those sources do their homework and generally check their information. However, we don't take information from primary sources which require us to analyze ourselves, because it is too easy to get wrong. --Jayron32 03:01, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Is Intelius considered a secondary source? Radiohist (talk) 12:08, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

In what sense could they be considered a publisher? AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:45, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

The Lauren Bacall example was probably caused by incorrect categorisation of newspaper articles as obituaries (or maybe obituaries mistakenly published or added to databases), or from documents contributed by members of the site, not from census records which haven't been published for such recent dates. Peter James (talk) 23:30, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

We should not use census records as they are not reliable sources for individual records, since they are based on statements by a household member and are primary. There is also the possibility of confusing individuals with the same name. Secondary sources of course may use them, but the authors are expected to have made judgment on each record used. TFD (talk) 03:17, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Finally to close this discussion with final question. in the case of Lee grant census records have been made available that confrim her year of birth, yet she has shown to not be comfortable with it being posted on the internet. As evidenced by her interview at the Archive for American Television. Have removed her birthdate from her page, but it was put back on with the excuse that she is vane and there is no real reason to take off her BY. However if the person herself doesn't want her birth year posted on the internet, shouldn't we respect her privacy?Radiohist (talk) 20:58, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Southmonitor.com and other website using news wire services WP:RS.

I have a genuine doubt here. I came across a lot of websites which publishes news provided by reputed News agency. One such website is southmonitor.com. Since the News agency which provide the news is considered as a reliable source in wikipedia Can we use such websites as reference which gives credit to the News agency which provides the news. For example.

http://southmonitor.com/shots-fired-at-cannes-film-festival-actors-flee-for-cover/

In this news the website gives credit to Reuters as its the News agency which provides the news. So if we use this website as a reference can we mention the above mentioned news in a suitable article as follows.

1. Shots Fired at Cannes when a french tv channel was interviewing Oscar-winning Waltz and French actor Auteuil live.

or

1. Shots Fired at Cannes when a french tv channel was interviewing Oscar-winning Waltz and French actor Auteuil live.

Since the above mentioned news is provided by a News agency the same news can be seen on almost all news portals with almost same wording.

Kindly guide me as it will be a great help. Benedictdilton (talk) 02:01, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

The site calls itself a "news portal" which is not a "news agency" by a mile, and thus the actual sources should be cited, unless the only online source is this portal (which is unlikely). Collect (talk) 09:31, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

lylefrancispadilla.com

My question is is this website a RS:

• http://www.lylefrancispadilla.com/

An editor as added the website to multiple articles about Medal of Honor recipients, and the website appears to be a self published source, even if 100% accurate and the creator well meaning. Due to the multiple usages of the website I cannot give a single article or a single piece of text, as most of the time the editor only added an external link to the appropriate section.

All this being said, I believe that the editor was entirely well meaning in adding the external link and this is not an attempt to "bite the newcomer".--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 05:48, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Then it should be OK, per WP:ELMAYBE #4: "Links to be considered ... 4. Sites that fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources." --GRuban (talk) 16:45, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the second opinion! I will alert MILHIST.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:22, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Global Vision Publishing

This publisher which has been used extensively as a source appears to be a rip off merchant. This book Foucault's Analysis of Mental Illness: A Psycho-pathological Study published December 2007 is a direct copy & paste from Hizbul Mujahideen article which had the content written before 8 March 2007. How does one go about checking if any other of their published books are Wiki rip offs? Darkness Shines (talk) 09:19, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

The book is actually Terrorism, National Security and Economic Development, Google books shows the wrong title.[14] The author is an expert in his field. It appears that the 2-page description of Hizbul Mujahideen (not the entire book) is taken from the Wikipedia article without credit. That in itself does not discredit the book or the publisher. TFD (talk) 18:08, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it does discredit the book: the author was plagiarising by taking that material without acknowledgement. Since he did that, we are entitled to wonder how much other stuff he took from other sources without acknowledgement. Reviews/other reactions to the book and knowledge of his general expertise might, however, sway us in the author's favour.

It doesn't affect our view of the publisher, who, on this book, is merely acting as an agent for self-publishing (see reverse of title page, where the publisher disclaims all responsibility for the contents). On books containing such a disclaimer the publisher confers no reliability at all: everything depends on the scholarly status of the author. Andrew Dalby 11:59, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

PS -- Looking again at that disclaimer, the special mention of plagiarism is curious. It looks as though the publisher was well aware of some problem. A publisher -- even a self-publisher -- can't be indifferent to copyright, and would have to refuse to publish a text that was known to infringe copyright in any serious way, because the publisher would be legally liable. But plagiarism -- e.g. of a public domain source -- e.g. Wikipedia -- is different: it's not per se illegal. So, I think, the publisher knew that some site such as Wikipedia was being plagiarised. Andrew Dalby 12:23, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

The disclaimer is standard. Academic publishers do not endorse the views of all or even most people they publish. Incidentally Wikipedia articles are not subject to copyright protection. Even the New York Times has published plagiarized material. This is all anyway original research. Find a source that says the publisher is not reliable. TFD (talk) 19:54, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I've done that for this book: the disclaimer (second page) says it.

If the disclaimer is, as you say, "standard" to this publisher, then you've answered your own demand: this publisher (a) acts as an agent for self-publishing and/or (b) reprints PD material. See also the list of other publications at the end of the same Google Books selection. We can't regard its publications as per se reliable: all depends on the reliability of each author.

I'm just trying to answer Darkness Shines's question as well as I can. Others, by all means, have a look at this and see if your conclusion is the same. Andrew Dalby 08:53, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

This has been discussed before, Wikipedia:Mirrors_and_forks/Ghi#Global_Vision_Publishing_House_.28publisher.29 and Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_89#Potentially_a_big_problem_with_circular_references.2C_mirroring_.26c. Short answer - yes, they have been known to publish many books that extensively copy and paste from Wikipedia. --GRuban (talk) 09:07, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you very much for checking that. I notice at your first link (mirrors and forks) the handy advice "Do not presume that any book from this publishing house is a reliable source". Andrew Dalby 12:42, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

RfC on new library search tool for Wikipedia

We have a new tool, Forward to Libraries, which helps readers find books at their local library related to the articles they are reading. The tool can also be used by editors to find reliable sources. There is an RfC at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Linking subjects to books at your local library (Forward to Libraries) to determine how this tool should be used on Wikipedia. Interested users may wish to comment there. 64.40.54.57 (talk) 01:16, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Geohive

• Source: http://www.geohive.com/contact.aspx
• Articles: mainly here
• Content: population figures

On one hand, the site link says exactly what we don't want to hear.

On the other hand, its figures may be better than the ones it's replacing, particularly at List of cities in China by population (talk discussion where Wikimedes makes a pretty good point about that)

So, I don't know. This IP has put in a lot of, what may turn out to be, great work. I don't want to lose him. But, that website comment: "This site is my hobby" compels me to post here. Thoughts? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 02:11, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I just wanted to precise things about the world cities population by built-up areas, a huge project I worked on for years and where I compiled fiable sources on thousands of charts for each Local Government Area composing any built-up area in the world. This work greatly inspired by research organization (e-Geopolis, http://e-geopolis.eu/spip.php?rubrique42&lang=en), french statistical bureau (INSEE), as well as statistical offices In Great Britain or India. All these datas for each census are compile by "unofficial" sites like citypopulation.de or geohive.com using cesnus results as soon as they area available (I checked them when the statistical office datas are available in english and not chinese, indian or russian for instance that I can't read). That's the reason why I use them as sources.

The definition of built-up areas encompasses areas covered by continuous building less than 200 m away (excluding rivers, motorways or Airport area) as its listed here (http://www.citypopulation.de/France.html, communes in major agglomerations, figures issued from INSEE french statistical bureau). Each country has it's own administrative areas divided sometimes in Local Government Areas for cities (ex : Paris as a municipality / commune and divided in 20 arrondissements), -

China distinguish : Administrative area (very large in China with thousands of km²), urban population in these administrative areas (citypopulation.de or geohive.com) which more or less is a subadministrative definition for cities. Sometimes it matches with built-up areas which can be observed via satellite view in google maps or google earth available also in citypopulation.de for each country. Sometimes, they are underadjusted when you've got conurbations as it is in Guangzhou-Shenzhen built-up area or also Shanghai-Suzhou etc as it's explained in the article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China_by_population), sometimes theurban area which correspond to the urban districts of each city is overadjusted compared to the built-up area (sometimes also in India).

The work I've been doing for years is trying to compare built-up areas adjusted to statisticals available on Local Governement Areas (the french INSEE or e-Geopolis definition) which is possible in China with datas issued by geohive.com or for many countries on citypopulation.de. Then all these LGAs are systematically checked with latest googlemaps aerial views to see the reality of agglomeration whatever the administrative areas are. Then, the built-up areas figures by cities are issued of this precise observation. This matches with the e-geopolis agglomeration definition as described here (http://e-geopolis.eu/spip.php?rubrique42&lang=en). So, this personal work of adjusting datas to aerial observation doesn't exist for all countries and cities, and of course can be sourced efficiently.

Moreover, statistical does exist for comparing agglomerations and one of the best is citypopulation (http://www.citypopulation.de/world/Agglomerations.html) even though the methodology is unclear, it takes into account generally agglomerations and not administrative areas. Nevertheless, it proves unefficient for most of chinese built-up areas (using urban areas) and most of conurbations (several LGAs built-up for a unique built-up area) as cited previously. Anyway, this work for China has never been done previuously and proved necessary according to urban growth.

So I'd really like this huge and exclusive amount of work be available for all wikiusers and to be able to create a new page List of cities by built-up areas allowing discussion and being updated by users with the same methodology. In the end, I hope you'll be convinced by these few words and let me help the community updating the figures (ie in China where the wikipedia articles cities still doesn't put the 2010 census results!!!). Thank you in advance.

Franck MICHEL

Just to let you know again, I fixed the links at the top. They used to look like this. The link was to Project China in err. I changed it to the proper List of cities in China. Sorry about that. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 13:50, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

• My initial take is that the website does not qualify as a reliable source. It's essentially a personal website, and personal websites are not considered reliable for the kind of facts and figures we are talking about. While the author makes impressive claims about his rigorous methodology, we are essentially in a position of having to "take his word for it"... there's no external fact checking (peer/editorial review, etc) that would allow us to call it reliable. No other sources cite the webpage to give it credibility or reputation. On the other hand, we do have the "expert exemption"... does the author qualify? Blueboar (talk) 14:24, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

WP:SPS or not?

Hi! User:Csurla used this source: http://www.lesnouvellesderoumanie.eu/ but I hink it is unreliable Folbal1 (talk) 08:28, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

What is the problem with this source? Pls explain it, because the "I think" it is not enough. - Csurla (talk) 08:57, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

It is just an obscure site, it looks like a self-published source for me Folbal1 (talk) 09:05, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Not self-published, a serious magazine. What is it being used for? Itsmejudith (talk) 09:13, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

In Ștefan Kovács article. - Csurla (talk) 09:19, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

This isn't controversial is it? Everyone can try to Google for further sources and for more details about these notable footballers. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:32, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Why needed for further sources? - Csurla (talk) 09:36, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

The main question is a reliable source? Folbal opinion for SPS is failed, therefore we can use in the article. Are you agree? - Csurla (talk) 09:42, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it may be used in the article... but that does not mean it must be used in the article. If there is a better source (ie a source that is considered even more reliable), use that instead. Blueboar (talk) 13:11, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Are these better sources?

• Ştii cine a fost Ştefan Covaci? Intră aici! (Romanian)
• Un fotbalist bănăţean participant la trei “mondiale” (Romanian)

Please confirm it. Thanks! - Csurla (talk) 16:02, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I think all three sources (the French and the two Romanian) are basically reliable. The French one sets out its stand on this page: it is a serious magazine of Romanian news in French and has been running for ten years. The article you link to in sporttim.ro (the third of these sources) looks like good solid biography, though it is acknowledged as largely quoted from an earlier article in a different magazine. I'd say it's most helpful for our readers to cite the French source, because more people can read French; some readers would also find the sporttim.ro citation helpful. Andrew Dalby 09:15, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Chinese pyramids

An IP wants to use Weekly World News and this as a cite for aliens building ancient Chinese pyramids, see Talk:Chinese pyramids#Denying ancient stories related with these Chinese Pyramids . And I'm almost sure they are not trolling, but actually believe this nonsense. Anyone else want to weigh in? Heiro 21:11, 20 May 2013 (UTC).

Why is that nonsense? or is every Weekly World News suppose to be nonsense information? what about the acknowledgement of CCN world news is that also nonsense? http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/06/20/china.aliens/ - (User:92.236.36.173 (talk) 10:20 PM 20 may 2013

Given the amount of fictional and satirical information Weekly World News publishes, it is not a reliable source in this context. On the other hand, using CNN as a reliable source for the allegation is acceptable. Location (talk) 21:35, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Which in other words gives me the right to edit Alien data in the Chinese pyramid Wikipeddi doesn't it? you just admitted yourself CNN as a reliable source that means that is okay I can edit Alien data on Chinese pyramids.(User:92.236.36.173 (talk) 10:41 PM 20 may 2013

Not necessarily. Whether you can insert that into the article depends on context, which may include WP:UNDUE and WP:REDFLAG. Best to obtain consensus on the talk page first. Location (talk) 21:49, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Don't be ridiculous. Why do you even have to ask? Mangoe (talk) 01:04, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Oh, it wasn't for me. I wanted them(the IP editor) to know it wasn't just me, I wanted other editors to chime in and let them know that their sources were inadequate. Providing links to relevant policies didn't seem to be cutting it. Heiro 14:08, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

OilPrice.org

We have someone wanting to use an article from OilPrice.com to support claims at Energy Catalyzer. My sense is that it does not have the editorial control or reputation to allow defense of it as a reliable source, but other opinions are requested. Mangoe (talk) 01:09, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

That's me. There are at least 30 articles in wiki with REFS to OilPrice.com. google search site:en.wikipedia.org "oilprice.com"(and remove talk pages). They have covered both hot and cold fusion in articles by a number of different authors.

http://oilprice.com/about-us "OilPrice.com is the fastest growing energy news site online. Our analysis focuses on Oil and Gas, Alternative Energy and Geopolitics. We have 3 in house writers and publish research from over 150 contributors. OilPrice works with over 250 syndication partners who re-publish our analysis. Some of our partners are: Zerohedge, Business Insider, Forbes, 24/7 Wall St, Arab News, The Street, Rigzone, Mining.com, Mineweb, Minyanville, Stockhouse + many others... Alanf777 (talk) 02:22, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I'm sure they are well qualified to write advertising copy about themselves. How does that make them WP:RS for articles on nuclear physics/cold fusion/whatever Rossi is calling it now? AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:37, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

They don't have a wiki article .. but if they DID I'd point you to WP:ELOFFICIAL, which specifically allows a link to their own statements. And note that they follow alternative energy. Alanf777 (talk) 03:09, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Don't be ridiculous. WP:ELOFFICIAL has nothing whatsoever to do with determining whether a source is reliable for something. And as for 'alternative energy', it has yet to be shown that Rossi's device produces any energy at all. If you want the E-Cat article to report on what is claimed to be a scientific paper, find a recognised scientific journal that reports on it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:48, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

For context, the original discussion is at Talk:Energy Catalyzer#Heads-up : 3rd party report preprint -- pending a RS. The inventors of a purported cold fusion device – the Energy Catalyzer (E-Cat) – posted a report on ArXiv.org announcing a successful trial of their invention. This is one of many such self-published reports of success issued in various venues over the last few years. There have been a number of claims of working prototype devices, business ventures, and commercially viable products, none of which have ever seemed to hold water over the long term.

The question at hand is whether this post at OilPrice.com constitutes sufficiently reliable, independent, and WP:WEIGHTy coverage to justify inclusion of yet another claimed success for the E-Cat, or if this is an unreliable or WP:FRINGE report or claim. My own position is that adding it to the article would (further) inappropriately bias our coverage in favor of poorly-supported claims; a long-standing problem with the article is that it is used as a thinly-veiled blog for the inventor's announcements. Alanf777 has demonstrated that OilPrice.com certainly wants to give the impression that it is a reliable, important source, but I'm not seeing independent confirmation of that point. (The fact that there are a few other Wikipedia articles citing OilPrice pages is neither here nor there; it's entirely possible that those citations wouldn't stand up to scrutiny, or perhaps some of the site's contributors or content sources are better than others.)

The web site claims three in-house writers, which doesn't exactly amount to a large staff. Pieces by Charles Kennedy, the author of the OilPrice post in question, look like they are doing well if they get as many as a thousand page views, and are lucky to clear two thousand. In other words, the effective 'circulation' of his journalistic output is worse than that of many small-town newspapers. Kennedy's OilPrice contributions as an in-house writer appear to be limited to banging out an eight- or ten-sentence post once a day, without doing anything more involved than reading a press release or company website. No matter that OilPrice invokes the names of Forbes; the plain fact is that this author isn't an important or widely-read commentator by any measure.

Also worrying regarding the reliability of this source is that it appears to be much more a blog post than any sort of well-researched news article. As I note on the Energy Catalyzer talk page, Kennedy makes serious errors regarding the scientific content of the report, and the extensive grammatical, spelling, and formatting errors suggest a very limited editorial review. This is a nine-sentence piece that doesn't get into any critical commentary (or really any commentary at all), simply repeating the claims made in the ArXiv report. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:58, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Haven't you noticed that Copy Editors are extinct in the news business? It's now each man for himself, maybe with a half-asserted review by a colleague -- if you're lucky. Alanf777 (talk) 05:55, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

The original question is now somewhat moot, as we have a REF from Forbes, by a reporter who was previously good reliable enough to be quoted in the lead. Alanf777 (talk) 05:58, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

reliable source or not: an editor wasn't sure

Hi Live chat and an editor who reviewed the article for creation (prior to the latest draft), had some yes/no response discrepancy on a source for citation.

First, the HackMatack homepage. It's a literary arts award for kids books in Canada. http://www.hackmatack.ca/ They list a two person bio in PDF form (an award nominee). The bio info (books published, awards, education, birthplace) does not indicate it's a publisher bio. Doesn't indicate it's an interview. Not a primary source from the authors listed. Between Live Chat and the reviewer, one said perfectly fine and the other said, not sure. http://www.hackmatack.ca/pdfs/2006English/RickJacobsonAndLauraFernandez.pdf

with an example of a fact cited being 16 published books. Thoughts?

892c (talk) 05:38, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

It's a weak source, as I doubt the minor award has a skilled staff of fact checkers that will ferret out every discrepancy between the details given them by the subject and the truth, but it's non-controversial information, so should suffice. However, I would actually go with the more recent author bio, even though it is primary, simply because it looks like he's written 3 more books since the award page.[15] Again, not controversial information. --GRuban (talk) 19:48, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Opinion polls

Please join us on the discussion about the sources used in this article. Thanks.Farhikht (talk) 10:37, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Usage of Sanksrit Documents available from online sources

Can Sanskrit documents from online sources be cited in references on articles on Buddhism or Hinduism.I am really hamstrung by not including them,as the translations into english are themselves copyrighted,or in some cases,translation do not exist at all. The sources I am referring to are:

• Library(Indira Gandhi National Centre for Arts)
• Digital Sanskrit Buddhist Cannon Project
• Sanskrit Documents

And many articles,like this one,,suffer from lack of proper citations.So,if the original text could be included to clarify this...?

I would like an opinion on this issue.Guru-45 18:45, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm guessing that these would be religious texts. If so they are primary sources requiring interpretation. If they are being used for quotation then I personally would prefer that the translation be copied from a citable, academically acceptable text. Mangoe (talk) 18:52, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

The only problem is,that without such sources,people tend to put such irrelevant spiel(check out the article on Kali-Saṇṭāraṇa Upaniṣad and the edit history of Hari-namamrta-vyakarana).They just write like sentimental fanatics.And without that original source (for the Hari-Namamrta-Vyakarana article),it would not have been possible to show the contents of that book...all the print editions of the book I know of are fully in Sanskrit as well,and the biggest problem is the dearth of academic research on these topics.The basic problem is that "secondary" and "tertiary" sources,in most cases,are simply not there.Guru-45 19:05, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

As Mangoe notes, primary sources must be used with care, and the reliability of sanskritdocuments.org is in doubt since there's no clear indication of who runs it. But it is perfectly acceptable (though not preferred) to cite documents in a foreign language, and translations are generally not considered original research. So Sanskrit documents on government and university web sites are reliable sources for what those documents say. - Cal Engime (talk) 20:16, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree that it doesn't seem possible to confirm the reliability of sanskritdocuments.org, though it is potentially a useful site.

It is legitimate to quote briefly from copyright works, including translations, if the translation is properly cited in a footnote. This counts as "fair use". Such a quote shouldn't be longer than, let's say, 100 words. Andrew Dalby 09:00, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Oelemari Airport and other Surinamese articles

Hello. After a brief discussion at User talk:Nardisoero, Salvidrim (talk · contribs) suggested to re-route our discussion here. It does not reduce to the example below, but we can start with it. Thank you.

1. diff
2. Oelemari Airport

3. On 15 August 1960 a Northrop YC-125B Raider, registered PZ-TAD (Formerly N2570B, 48-632) stalled during landing at Oelemari and was reported written-off with no fatalities. The pilot was D.L. Walker. The airplane was leased by the Surinamese Government/SLM from Ambrose Aviation for equipment transport for landing-strip construction, under "Operation Grasshopper".

--Jetstreamer ^Talk 23:37, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Looks like we have an article on Joe Baugher, and that he might qualify as an expert in the field of military aviation. But that seems a bit of a stretch here, since I don't see where that page writes the information it is being cited for here. --GRuban (talk) 14:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Code of Canon Law as reliable source for Catholic canon law

On the grounds that the Code of Canon Law is a primary source, an editor has objected to citing it for information on Catholic canon law. See here and here. Surely, when merely stating the law, without making the statement part of a synthesis of any kind, the actual text of the law is the most reliable source to cite. Esoglou (talk) 09:08, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Original research plan and simple is the problem, not necessarily reliability. Esoglou is know for claiming that primary source are always OK then ripping out any secondary sources thus turning articles into original research. Everyone here are not legal experts much less cannon law experts. Spshu (talk) 14:44, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I would second that. I find reliable sources which are clear as to the conclusion of the disputed point. We are not canon lawyers and should not be drawing conclusions from it. Mangoe (talk) 15:25, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

For more on how to appropriately use primary sources, see WP:PSTS. You can cite the code of Cannon Law for a blunt descriptive statement as to the contents of the code (essentially a quote), but as soon as you start to analyze or interpret what the law means, or apply it to a given situation you need a secondary source. Blueboar (talk) 16:27, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Blueboar. What Spshu and Mangoe have written here actually supports what Blueboar said: we are not canon lawyers and should simply quote the law as stated in the Code, without adding original-research interpretations of our own. Esoglou (talk) 16:30, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Laws often mean something different from what an ordinary person would think from reading them, and therefore secondary sources are needed to interpret them. Simply quoting a law without a secondary source can be misleading. For example, the Statue of Frauds says that specialty contracts not made under seal are unenforceable, yet equity allows people to sue anyway, taxation means to assess costs, pretend means to make a claim, etc. TFD (talk) 05:54, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

There is no ambiguity about the statement in modern (post-1983) English (without using terms like "taxation" and "pretend" in what has become an archaic sense) in Code of Canon Law, canon 452 §2, "The president of the Conference or, when he is lawfully impeded, the vice-president, presides not only over the general meetings of the Conference but also over the permanent committee", which was cited in support of the statement in the article: "Some of the leadership functions once exercised by primates, specifically presiding at meetings of the bishops of a nation or region, are now exercised by the president of the conference of bishops: 'The president of the Conference or, when he is lawfully impeded, the vice-president, presides not only over the general meetings of the Conference but also over the permanent committee.'" This is what an editor objected to on the grounds that the Code is a primary source. Esoglou (talk) 09:52, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

GCatholic.org

Is GCatholic.org a reliable source for information on Catholic ecclesiastics who hold the title of primate? Or should it be classified as more or less a blog run by Gabriel Chow of Toronto? See the inconclusive discussion here. Esoglou (talk) 09:08, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Is .net christian advocacy website a reliable source for ethnicity statistics?

1) "Joshua Project is a research initiative seeking to highlight the ethnic people groups of the world with the fewest followers of Christ." [16]

2) Arabs in Turkey

3) Alternate population number (1,600,000) in the infobox in the article. The source is this: [17] Cavann (talk) 19:24, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

No, there is nothing to establish this site's credibility. The parent organisation owns a university, but it is unaccredited. - Cal Engime (talk) 21:04, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Cavann (talk) 03:01, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Video Game Journalism

Publications of Note

Are the publications listed here are really credible and worthy to be mentioned here? Plus didn't GamePro, PSMagazine and XboxMagazine shut down already? I mean they are no longer publishing issues. Just like 1UP and GameSpy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robert Latik (talk • contribs) 11:51, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Robert Latik (talk) 12:11, 22 May 2013 112.209.176.230 (talk) 05:25, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

528records.com as used in Solfeggio frequencies

In this section of the article on solfeggio frequencies, the claim that Lennon used this mystical tuning to record "Imagine" is was backed up by citing 528records.com. Diff The site seems sketchy, using language which I consider to be hand-waving, such as "We think either he, or his musical director, figured it all out eventually..."

Your input will be appreciated. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 13:25, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

This may now be a low priority, since the list item in question has been removed. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 00:21, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

www.jfk-online.com

Source: http://www.jfk-online.com, specifically http://www.jfk-online.com/dbarcback.html and http://www.jfk-online.com/jpsasfrd.html which appear to be links to newsgroup postings.

Article: Sergio Arcacha Smith.

Content: The two links are used to cite over half of the material in Sergio Arcacha Smith. Are they sufficiently reliable for various details regarding this person's life (e.g. "Arcacha Smith was expelled from the Cuban Democratic Revolutionary Front in January 1962 for misappropriating funds. Later that year he made a secret trip to Mexico."). Thanks. Location (talk) 20:50, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Sources used in Iranian presidential election, 2013

I would like to ask a question about reliability of the sources used in the opinion polls section of the article on Iranian elections. The sources are all in Persian so I present them for non-Persian speakers.

• This source is Rasanehiran.com and the opinion polls cited here is conducted by IRIB, State TV -which is not independent. About section of the website is empty.
• [18] cites a polls conducted by Tebyan.net. Tebyan is one of the website of the Islamic Ideology Dissemination Organization which is officially under the control of the Supreme Leader of Iran.
• ie92.ir an unknown website. Here the website claims that it supports "the interests of the Islamic Republic".
• this one: Nothing about the website. Who is behind this website?
• iranelect.ir is not an official website and again nothing in the about section. Online survey.
• Tebyan see above.
• a forum.
• alef.ir is the website of Ahmad Tavakoli, a deputy of the Parliament. The polls here is conducted by "a reliable organisation" as is presented in the news article. The name of this organisation is not mentioned.
• Fars News Agency is another source.

No editorial oversight has been presented in the "about" section of these websites. Noted that all of these polls were conducted online and their methods is unknown.

Here is the disputed section:

Poll source	Date updated	Ghalibaf	Jalili	Rezaei	Rouhani	Velayati	Aref	Haddad-Adel	Gharazi	Others	Undecided
Rasanehiran	11 May 2013	21%	10%	9%	7%	7%	5%	2%	1%	37%	1%
Akharinnews	12 May 2013	39.54%	7.21%	–	1.75%	24.74%	2.75%	7.68%	17.39%	–
Alborznews	13 May 2013	15.08%	1.00%	5.07%	0.05%	8.07%	1.03%	7.06%	18.06%	17.08%	9.03%
ie92	14 May 2013	18%	7%	12%	8%	7%	1%	1%	4%	40%	2%
Arnanews	15 May 2013	8.8%	9.3%	3.9%	0.2%	3.3%	0.4%	0.3%	0.3%	70.5%	3.1%
Iranelect	15–16 May 2013	47%	21%	14%	10%	–	–	7%	–	–
Kashanjc	16 May 2013	43.25%	1.25%	5.81%	1.97%	24.04%	2.21%	6.46%	4.17%	9.43%	–
ie92	17 May 2013	16%	7%	11%	7%	6%	1%	1%	5%	44%	2%
Iranamerica	18 May 2013	33.33%	11.11%	22.22%	11.11%	–	–	–	11.11%	–
ie92	19 May 2013	15%	7%	10%	7%	6%	1%	1%	5%	47%	1%
AleF	20 May 2013	19.8%	11.6%	4.6%	12.5%	13.2%	12.5	4.7%	1%	19.1%	1%
Farsnews	21 May 2013	20.1%	13.5%	10.9%	6.6%	7.4%	3.3%	3.1%	0.2%	31.9%	3%
ie92	22 May 2013	31%	17%	22%	13%	12%	1%	1%	0.1%	–	4%
Fararu	23 May 2013	18.84%	9.56%	7.49%	24.36%	3.86%	30.96%	0.93%	4.01%	–	–
Ghatreh	23 May 2013	17.57%	16.83%	6.38%	17.32%	6.9%	30.87%	1.16%	2.92%	–	–
Seratnews	23 May 2013	22.96%	40.47%	4.84%	10.14%	6.93%	9.97%	0.84%	3.84%	–	–
Ofoghnews	23 May 2013	20.00%	19.00%	6.00%	20.00%	8.00%	23.00%	0.1 %	4.00%	–	–

Steven Krivit as critique for another Energy Catalyzer Test

The source to be discussed: Rossi Manipulates Academics to Create Illusion of Independent Test, Steven B. Krivit, via New Energy Times. The article: Energy Catalyzer, section "Test" about the test results, posted to Arxiv: 1305.3913. The arxiv paper itself not-reliable (self-published, not reviewed), but it was mentioned by several reliable sources, eg Forbes or Popular Science, and created some additional public interest.

Krivit outlined some weak points of the paper in the source, so I tried to add this text to the article diff:

According to New Energy Times, authors of paper did all measurements at Rossi’s facilities and under his constraints. There was no any calorimetry done, heat power was extrapolated from temperature measurements. New Energy Times concludes that this was not an independent test, but manipulation from Rossi to create appearance of such test.

Why I think that S B Krivit is Relaible? Because NBC says: [19] "Steven Krivit, a journalist who covers cold fusion claims and editor-in-chief of the Nuclear Energy Encyclopedia (Wiley, 2011)". IRWolfie recommends me to go here to discuss reliability of Krivit: Talk:Energy_Catalyzer - "Test" section `14:34, 24 May 2013 (UTC)