Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)

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The miscellaneous section of the village pump is used to post messages that do not fit into any other category. Please post on the policy, technical, or proposals pages, or – for assistance – at the help desk, rather than here, if at all appropriate. For general knowledge questions, please use the reference desk.

« Older discussions, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42

Centralized discussion
Proposals	Discussions	Recurring proposals
Binding RfC on how to word the lead section of the Jerusalem article RfC on whether preemptive semi-protection of an editor's own user pages should be applied upon request RfC on the implementation of a new platform linking to libraries RfC on whether to implement pending changes protection level 2 RfC on images in "Today's Featured Article" on the main page Petition to the WMF on handling of interface changes RfC on the Main Page's design, content, and purpose RfC on the return of the orange talk page notification banner (removed as of April 30). Should plays list awards or only the most prestigious awards? Should English Wikipedia conduct a readership survey? RfC on adding expiry options to watchlisted pages. RfC on WP:MOS-AM, possible change to article content guideline. RfC on WP:DIPLOMAT, possible change to biography notability guideline. RfC on the use of the account creator flag for purposes other than account creation. RfC about the new speedy deletion criterion G13's scope. A proposal to merge WP:AFD, WP:PM, and WP:ATD-R into a single Articles for discussion process. RfC about whether the authors of copyrighted images should be credited in a footnote in the article where the image is used. Note: inactive discussions, closed or not, should be archived.
archive talk edit history watch

Do we have a place to ask for help with IPA?

Do we have a project or noticeboard where we can ask for help with adding IPA characters? I looked at Help:IPA and Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(pronunciation)#Entering_IPA_characters, and I don't see such a place mentioned. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:59, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia/Pronunciation task force perhaps? Or there's always the reference desk or Wiktionary. Though usually the best solution is to add a made-up pronunciation and wait for someone to come along and correct it for you. ;-) --MZMcBride (talk) 20:17, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

A formal IP help page would be a worthwhile consideration. There is a lot of controversy about how words, particularly non English, or non American English place names, for example, are transcribed into the IPA. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:12, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

In a pinch, WP:RDL may be able to help. --Jayron32 01:55, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

French prisoners of war in Engeland

In File:Journal de Bruxelles nr 167 1800 (614, 615).png (colom 1) I read that French prisoners where mistreated in Portchester. I suspect they where held in Portchester castle. Strangely there is talk of a French commissioner being responsible for the mistreatment. Was it usual that the responsibility of the treatment of prisoners was by the country of the prisoners? This seams strange to me.Smiley.toerist (talk) 10:20, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Translation issue? Could it mean commissioner for French prisoners? rather than the commissioner being french. In any case this is something that ahould be asked at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities.Geni (talk) 23:00, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Help Brazilian Wikipedia

Hey guys how are you doing? While getting involved with Brazilian Wikipedia community, I got access to some very interesting data. According to Wkimedia stats, whereas there are 22 English-speaker-editors per million, there are only 5 Portuguese-speaker-editors. That said, I was thinking of good strategies to improve editors' participation, to increase the number of editors and to convert more readers into editors (only 3% of Wikipedia Portuguese readers are also editors).

I know that Wikipedia in Enlish is a huge community and that you might face or have faced that very same problem. That said, I would very much appreciate if you could share some strategies/projects that have worked in English-speaking countries, in terms of tackling the aforementioned challenges.

I believe that cross-country collaboration among wikipedist has the potential of spreading good solutions! Phelps246 (talk) 06:10, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Editor Retention is the English language project best associated with this problem. Perhaps you could contact some people who are active there. --Jayron32 06:14, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Dear Jayron, I was reading about it yesterday and it indeed seemeed to be an incredibly initiative. I will most definitely be in touch with people who have been actively participating there to understand what has worked or not. Do you know any other interesting projects: for instance, initiatives that bring Wikipedia community closer to schools and universities, promote Wikipedia and attract new editors through social network (Facebook is the most accessed site in Brazil) and, in general, convert readers into editors (in Brazil only 3% of readers also edit). I do appreciate your help :) Phelps246 (talk) 12:11, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

One thing to note is that the en.wikipedia Editor Retention Project is mainly aimed at helping existing editors not to leave. It is not aimed at recruiting new editors, as such. The problem with the lack of Portugese-speaking editors is more how to recruit new editors, than how to retain existing ones. So it is a different problem.

I don't have proper figures, but I would guess that many of the Portugese speakers in the world are in places like Brazil, where internet access is generally less widespread than in the English-speaking world. Awareness of Wikipedia might be less widespread too!

So focusing on those issues may be more valuable than an editor retention initiative. I do know the UK Chapter has done some work on expanding awareness, but I'm sure other chapters will have too. It's worth having a look at all the different approaches, probably. (Perhaps someone could give links to places to look?)

There are also initiatives for giving out devices capable of accessing (maybe editing?) Wikipedia. Maybe you could request some of these be sent to Portugese-speaking areas that might need them? Or an entire separate grant to support a Wikipedia awareness drive in Portugese-speaking areas? (Perhaps someone could give links to places to look regarding the cheap device plan?) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:16, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello Phelps, it's a really hard problem. Converting readers into editors is tricky, you get a lot of trash contributions. Better concentrate on the newbies that are coming despite the markup etc. Try to improve editors' participation by making people aware of "easy tasks" on WP, for example a translation project with mentoring. Or ask for photos of monuments in articles Special:Nearby? Some interesting things to read:

• Wikipedia:Geo-targeted_Editors_Participation/report, Wikipedia:Geo-targeted Editors Participation (Philippines)
• meta:Editor Growth and Contribution Program (arabic etc.)

Phelps, I have a question about portuguese WP in return: You have activated both Article Feedback Tool 4 (Rate this page/Avaliar esta página - O que é isto?) and pt:Wikipédia:Informe um erro (Report an error feature/Wikibugs/Wikipedia:Kvetch) for readers. Do you think that this could "cannibalize" new editors? Clicking on the article-rating-stars or just leaving a note "to Wikipedia", instead of editing/contributing? This may be easier for readers - but it's not creating new editors? Do you make statistics on those features? Best of luck for your project! --Atlasowa (talk) 21:14, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello Atlasowa! I'm from pt.wiki and I'd like to answer your questions. First, thank you for the links you provided. It's a very interesting reading. I think both pages "Informe um erro" is not engaging people to be bold and fix for themselves. It's curious we ask readers to make an edit to inform us but about an error but don't to ask them to fix it. "Avalie esta página" is a feature that we don't use to anything. We have a discuss some time ago to remove it but it looks like a new feature is comming so we are waiting to change it. Brazilian Catalyst Program hired a data analyst to research some features of pt.wiki with community and I expect to help with this statistics in a near future. OTAVIO1981 (talk) 16:58, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

A new homepage on zh wikipedia

zh:Wikipedia:首页, it's a new homepage. --Qiyue2001 (talk) 09:19, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Pilkipedia

I just came across pilkipedia. I wonder if anyone on the Wiki thinks that there may be copyright implications here. Does Wikipedia have copyright on its presentation style. I think it does. Anyone looking at this site would surely agree that it is a blatant rip-off of the Wikipedia style. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jodosma (talk • contribs) 02:54, 18 May 2013

That wiki uses the same software as Wikipedia, Mediawiki, so it's no surprise that it looks similar. The software is released under a free licence so there is no copyright issue. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:40, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Yeah. Basically, that monkey at the top-left hand corner is what keeps them in the clear. If it were a globe there, then the WMF legal department would be giving them a good slapping! (Has happened before, and has resulted in sites being taken down.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:35, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Category RfC

I just came across a category that has different issues with many of the articles in it. It may be too much for the photography project to handle. Details are in my new post at Category talk:Photography by genre. We probably don't need to discuss it here but I thought I would add the link so others can provide input or put it on watch lists. I also posted similar at the photography project. If it needs to be linked elsewhere or moved then feel free to do so or discuss a move there.--Canoe1967 (talk) 16:20, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

A good story: Samblanay

In 2007 an editor created a page Samblanay based on material from the 1911 Britannica. The article he used was titled "Samblançay" but that editor, being from Singapore, thought probably that the French "cé cédille" (ç) was some sort of unimportant decoration. Check the first version of the page for more creative spellings, which you can compare with its source the article "Samblançay" in the 1911 Britannica. Ok, mistakes do happen. But for 6 years that page has been around without anyone noticing. I did because I followed today's DYK Gibbet of Montfaucon and one thing led to another. So the completely spurious "Samblanay" form has had time to spread through the Internet. A Google search today returned 1230 hits. I did not check all of them, but all of them that I did check go back to that original 2007 Wikipedia blunder, including stuff on Facebook and in Wikipedia material repackaged and resold by outfits of the kind you are probably familiar with. Another collateral damage of "Wikipedia the encyclopedia that anyone can edit". I wonder how many other good stories like this one are out there. If there are enough we may even write a Wikipedia article about them! Contact Basemetal here 20:23, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Sadly this is complete nonsense, as the form Samblanay appears in 19th century historical books in French for the same title [1]. I suggest Basemetal's touching faith in the consistency of French late medieval spelling is entirely misplaced. Meanwhile he persists in removing this spelling from the article. Johnbod (talk) 21:34, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I left on my talk page a remark about your examples from those "19th century historical books" (there's only two and for one of them Google got it wrong (the text is actually "Samblancay"). The other example might well be a typo in that "19th century historical book". Incidentally it's the only real example of "Samblanay" besides content repackaged from WP. You've got to admit that for a spelling variant that's not much. But let's ask the creator of the article where he got that spelling before making all sorts of speculations. Contact Basemetal here 21:42, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Check again - the scans of both books clearly show "Samblanay". They may both be wrong for all I know, but the mistake dates to the 1880s. This nonsense is how internet memes get started. Johnbod (talk) 21:46, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I checked again. You're right both have in fact "Samblanay". Based on those two books we could include the variant "Samblanay" in the article with the caveat that this spelling is found only in those two sources and might be a typo. But I maintain the originator of this spelling in WP did not introduce it because he checked those two books but because he mistyped something he found in the 1911 Britannica. Contact Basemetal here 21:55, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

In the book from 1733 (Histoire de la Maison Royale de France, 1733, 3e éd., tome 8) it is certainly a typo, since under D "Jacques de Beaune, chevalier, ſeigneur de Samblançay" (also mentioning his famous condemnation to death "Sa fin déplorable eſt écrite par tous les hiſtoriens du temps […] il fut condamné à mort"), there is "1. Guillaume de Beaune, ſeigneur de Samblanay, qui ſuit" (=following) and on the following page "Guillaume de Beaune, ſeigneur de Samblançay". And in the bulletin from 1887 (Bulletin archéologique, historique et artistique de la Société archéologique de Tarn-&-Garonne, vol. 15, 1887, p. 156), judging from the only part we can see "la condamnation de Samblanay", this is most probably about the same Jacques de Beaune, and could be the same typo. So this seems to be a very weak reason to consider Samblanay a valid variant spelling, also considering the fact that in French, Samblançay is approximately pronounced "san-blan-sey" and Samblanay "san-blah-ney", which is quite different.

Moreover the first version of the article is exactly the text from the 1911 Brittanica, except that Samblançay is variously rendered as Samblanay in the entry title, Samblancay, or even Samblanqay. Oliv0 (talk) 08:08, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

The right spelling is Samblançay with ç. This is a family of lords owning the land named fr:Semblançay coming from Semblancorum. The French Wikipedia has an article on its most famous member, fr:Jacques de Beaune. There is long notice about him in Michaud, Biographie universelle ancienne et moderne, Paris, volume 37, pp. 584 et 585. He is also mentionned, e.g. in two letters of Agrippa, cf Joseph Orsier, Henri Cornélis Agrippa : sa vie et son oeuvre d'après sa correspondance : 1486-1535, Paris, 1911, pp. 24, 93, et 97. --Rene1596 (talk) 12:09, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Nobody is arguing otherwise, but anyone used to French (or English) medieval sources knows that variant spellings abound, and are not always the expected ones. It is unlikely that Samblançay is "coming from Semblancorum" - that is merely the Latinized form of an Old French name, used for official records, though it would be very typical if the oldest mentions are in Latin not French. Anyway this is clearly not an invention of the internet, or Wikipedia, nor frankly "a good story". Johnbod (talk) 14:08, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Though the frequent mention of the variant Samblanay on the Internet seems to have no other source than the Wikipedia typo or scanning mistake, Semblancorum is indeed not mentioned among the oldest Latin forms in Nègre, Toponymie générale de la France, which concludes that Semblançay = Latin proper name Simplicius + suffix -acum + influence (attraction) of blanc "white". Oliv0 (talk) 15:26, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I suggested that Johnbod take a look at the history and the early versions of that article. Apparently he's too busy to do that and instead prefers to argue from nonsensical generalities. Anyone who would do that would see that

• the presence of Samblanay in WP has nothing to do with its presence the 1887 journal and the 1733 book. The creator of the article and of this spelling on WP did not introduce it because he found it in the 1887 journal and/or the 1733 book. It is an entirely independant creation of his when he incorrectly copied content from the 1911 EB.
• until yesterday, when I corrected it, the title of the article was Samblanay (with a redirect from Samblancay not Samblançay). In other words the correct spelling was not even present on WP. Even if one could argue (which one can't really) that Samblanay was a legitimate historical variant, it would be such an obscure one that one would have to wonder how reasonable it would be that it be chosen as the title of the article in preference to the well-attested forms Samblançay and Semblançay.
• if you Google Samblanay, most of the hits are from content recycled from the WP blunder and not based on the 1887 and the 1733 works.

Given all that I will let people decide how reasonable it is to say that WP has no responsibility in spreading Samblanay.

I will discuss whether Samblanay can really be reasonably called a historical variant arising from inconsistencies in French spelling some other time but Oliv0 has already given the most important facts regarding that question. One other fact, which he hasn't mentioned, is that the Samblanay form is not present in any other version of the Histoire de la Maison Royale de France... than the 1733 edition (at least as far as I could tell from those editions whose text is partially accessible on the net).

Contact Basemetal here 16:40, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Whatever, and by the way check "Samblançai" if you are interested - that has tons of book-hits. You can't prove Samblanay was revived as a Wiki-typo, since it might easily have been picked up from the old sources, & even if it was, so what! If a search on a typo gets authentic hits, the editor can't really be blamed. On my google books most of the hits are from old sources, though the top 2 hits are "books" made up of WP stuff. Over & out. Johnbod (talk) 17:20, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Musical group origin question

This is a general question best illustrated by an example; should music group The Dead Lay Waiting be in

1. Category:Swindon
2. Category:People from Swindon
3. Category:Organisations based in Swindon

It started in the first, I moved it to the second, and it has now been moved to the third. I'm sure musical groups do not count as organisations; but do they count as people...GrahamHardy (talk) 22:46, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

RfC on new library search tool for Wikipedia

We have a new tool, Forward to Libraries, which helps readers find books at their local library related to the articles they are reading. There is an RfC at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Linking subjects to books at your local library (Forward to Libraries) to determine how this tool should be used on Wikipedia. Users that are interested may wish to comment there. 64.40.54.57 (talk) 01:27, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Flow

Opinions polls

Hello. We have a discussion on surveys and opinion polls in this article. Any comment will be helpful. Thanks.Farhikht (talk) 11:14, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Infobox orchestra

Please comment on the ongoing replacement of {{Infobox musical artist}} with {{Infobox orchestra}} at Template talk:Infobox orchestra#Use of this infobox. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:27, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

nl:WP

The nl:WP will soon be the second-largest wikipedia. Why? The use bots to create articles about animals. What do you think when you hear that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.82.13.65 (talk) 13:36, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

We think that such provocative messages left by IP unsigned can only cause extra drama and do not serve any purpose.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:49, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I wonder if they got their idea from the bots that have created articles on the largest Wikipedia. History of Wikipedia#Hardware and software mentions the first Wikipedia bot, which created articles for US towns. GoingBatty (talk) 03:13, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Help required re a disambiguation page

I was editing an article on the Edinburgh International Festival and created a link to the Renaissance poet Sir David Lyndsay. I then noticed that the link was bringing up the David Lyndsay disambiguation page. I then moved the David Lyndsay page I was interested in targeting to David Lyndsay (poet) (to differentiate it) and amended existing redirects. I then discovered that entering 'David Lyndsay' in the Wikipedia general search box was skipping the disambiguation page entirely and leading directly to the David Lyndsay, the poet. This is hardly satisfactory for those seeking other David Lyndsays. I've tried some reverts but they're not working; so I conclude I am doing something wrong, hence clueless. Can anyone advise me on how to resolve this issue? Kim Traynor | Talk 14:35, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

@Kim Traynor: = You could change David Lyndsay to redirect to David Lindsay, but since there are no other David Lyndsays on the disambiguation page, is that necessary? GoingBatty (talk) 00:11, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that suggestion, but it seems from the Preview that if I do that I still end up on the David Lyndsay (poet) page. Kim Traynor | Talk 00:47, 24 May 2013 (UTC)