Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)

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The policy section of the village pump is used to discuss proposed policies and guidelines and changes to existing policies and guidelines.
If you want to propose something new that is not a policy or guideline, use the proposals section.
If you have a question about how to apply an existing policy or guideline, try the one of the many Wikipedia:Noticeboards.

Please see this FAQ page for a list of frequent proposals and the responses to them.

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Centralized discussion
Proposals Discussions Recurring proposals
  • An RfC about whether or not the opt-in requirement should be removed from the enwiki edit counter.
  • A proposal to reimplement the Main Page with an alternative framework.
  • An RfC regarding changing the username policy to allow role accounts.
  • A discussion on ways to improve the "Today's featured article requests" system.

Note: inactive discussions, closed or not, should be archived.



Removing current consensus from guidelines[edit]

If you look at Category:Dog_breeds, all names are capitalized. Some editors think that this is incorrect and undesirable, and they keep removing mentions of dog breeds from Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization) [1][2].

Aren't guidelines supposed to reflect current consensus? What am I supposed to do? --Enric Naval (talk) 16:51, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Discuss the addition of the change to the guidelines after it has been boldly added and then reverted? -- JHunterJ (talk) 16:57, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Indeed. Especially after it's been pointed out to you already that this issue is complex and disputed, and is a MOS:LIFE/MOS:CAPS issue not a WP:AT/WP:NCCAPS/WP:NCFAUNA issue (the AT/NC pages defer to MOS on style, and this is a style question). Capitalization of animal breeds, which is not about dogs in particular somehow, but about all breeds, is itself subject to long-running disputes (which are actually factually and logically separate from species common name capitalization disputes, believe it or not &ndash one can support the one and oppose the other, and vice versa). The fact that some particular categories of breeds are presently capitalized is best addressed at WP:FAITACCOMPLI to the extent it isn't simply an entirely incidental result of WP:NCFAUNA formerly instructing wikiprojects to just make up their own rules, before WP:LOCALCONSENSUS policy was written and before MOS:LIFE firmly settled on lower case for common names of groups of animals. "What's going on right now in some that I agree with in some editing backwater, regardless why it's happening" is not synonymous with "current consensus" across Wikipedia on a best practice. I'm actually sympathetic to the idea of capitalizing formal breeds, as will be many others (e.g. there's a formal convention to capitalize the plant equivalent, cultivars, so botanists and horticulturalists are as likely to support the idea as dog or horse breeders). It's a long discussion that has not played out yet.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  20:13, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Looking at Talk:Welsh_Corgi#Requested_move, it looks like there is consensus to keep breed uppercased. And Category:Breeds is full of uppercase articles. Yet the guidelines mention nothing of this, due to the vocal opposition of a few editors..... --Enric Naval (talk) 17:59, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Q re quoting from a Youtube vid[edit]

Hello, and sorry if this Q has been covered already 100 times ... There is a Youtube vid that contains an interview with a notable person on a subject, and I would like to include said statments & opinions (from said person from the Youtube vid, and as an WP:RS) in an article on the subject (that exists). Is this allowable? (I'm not aware the statements in the vid are in print anywhere, I tend to think they are not. But the vid interview is clear, and if I quoted the statements/opinion, it would be my dictation to print directly from listening to the Youtube vid myself [of course].) Anyway I'm not sure the allowability of this, please guide me. (I think I've explained my Q okay -- let me know if I haven't.) p.s. Am I in the right venue for this Q? Thank u. Sincere, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 09:48, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

See WP:YOUTUBE. The key is that the video does not violate copyright and meets the reliable sources criteria. --  Gadget850 talk 12:26, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • I would take this to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard for a more definitive and practiced answer, but as a first pass, my concern would actually be whether the producers of the video constitute a reliable source. A bare video of a highly respected scientist would not constitute a reliable source by itself if the video was not created and edited by a reputable organization. Some whack job could edit even the most respected and highly informed scholars on any number of topics to imply something completely at odds with actual scholarship. Just recently, some nutjob catholic fundamentalist put out a production with clips from several respected scientists, and narrated by Kate Mulgrew that was edited to imply scientific support for geocentrism. VanIsaacWScont 12:33, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
    • There's plenty of YouTube channels run by reputable colleges, companies, organizations, etc. You might want to check for this notable person in some related channel. Supernerd11 :D Firemind ^_^ Pokedex 17:31, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
      • And if the college, company, organization, etc is a reliable source, then a video from their Youtube channel would probably be as well. The point is that who appears in a video is, frankly, irrelevant; rather it's the provenance of the video production itself that makes it RS or not. VanIsaacWScont 18:54, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

AL Class[edit]

I have seen a few WikiProjects add AL Class to their assessment lists yet I am having trouble finding what AL class is and what it involves. I am assuming it is going to be an in-between level between List and Featured List or am I wrong? Can someone please provide links to the relevant discussions and Wikipedia pages? Otherwise, what is AL Class? Thanks. Simply south ...... discombobulating confusing ideas for just 8 years 17:25, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

There was recently a discussion about Good List status, and if I recall correctly, consensus seemed pretty much for it. I'm not sure what happened after that, though, is this maybe what ended up happening with that? Supernerd11 :D Firemind ^_^ Pokedex 17:29, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
WP:MILHIST uses it per WP:MHA, and the Highways Wikiproject and its subprojects have just implemented it per WT:HWY/ACR for lists reviewed through WP:HWY/ACR. The first nomination has been opened there as a way to peer-review lists to polish them to a higher quality than the ordinary list article assessed by the projects. At least in the case of HWY/USRD/etc, the lists will be assessed against the FL criteria (just as A-Class articles are essentially reviewed against the FA criteria), so it's in no way related to Good Lists, which would be a lower standard. Imzadi 1979  06:42, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Critics of relativity... "viewpoints are not accepted by the scientific community."[edit]

Regarding the lead in the "Criticisms of the theory of relativity" article: "Even today there are some critics of relativity (sometimes called "anti-relativists"), however, their viewpoints are not accepted by the scientific community." Is this Wikipedia policy, i.e., in effect, "No criticism of relativity allowed?" If so it must be changed to allow a fair representation of published criticism of relativity. (See subsection on my talk page.) LCcritic (talk) 18:39, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

See WP:FRINGE. Jackmcbarn (talk) 18:44, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
@LCcritic: I am afraid you have failed to detect the sarcasm in the recommendation made on your talk page to attempt to change Wikipedia's policy on fringe theories. Note that it is possible to provide due coverage of fringe ideas, but sourcing needs to be presented that shows the theories you promote are themselves notable. Thus far, none of the sources you have provided are reliable. VQuakr (talk) 19:04, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Don't let them discourage you. It was to be expected that those steeped in the old ways would merely point at their misguided traditions. This is the place where policy is made, and "consensus is determined by the quality of arguments". The stage is set, the lights are on: present your argument. Paradoctor (talk) 19:43, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Please someone block this poor guy now, for his own good - WP:SOAP, WP:NOTHERE issues, thanks.--cyclopiaspeak! 20:11, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
LCcritic, there is simply no possibility that you will be permitted to use Wikipedia to promote your anti-relativist arguments. This has been made entirely clear to you on multiple occasions, and you have only two choices - accept it and work within Wikipedia guidelines and policies, or find somewhere else to advance your theories. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:53, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
The sources and your interpretations, as listed on your talk page, were dismissed on various previously shopped fora. For a partial overview of places where the dismissals have taken place, see here. - DVdm (talk) 21:09, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Will someone here please address the issue of policy which endorses the above quoted statement that no criticism of relativity is "accepted by the scientific community?" If those who agree are allowed to "dismiss" all such published criticism (as cited), then no criticism is accepted as legitimate. In that case, the "Criticisms of the theory of relativity" article should simply be reduced to one short statement: "There is no legitimate criticism of relativity theory." Btw, I am not promoting "my personal point of view," as constantly accused. Einstein said clearly that he was not a realist: “It appears to me that 'real' is an empty meaningless category (drawer) whose immense importance lies only in that I place certain things inside it and not certain others." Also, "'The physical world is real.'... The above statement seems intrinsically senseless..." Also, "I concede that the natural sciences concern the “real,” but I am still not a realist." (Letter from Albert Einstein to Eduard Study (Sept. 25, 1918.) Wikipedia; Realism: “Philosophical realism, belief that reality exists independently of observers." "Real" criticism of relativity comes from realists (as I have cited), but they are not allowed a voice even in the (sham) "Criticisms of the theory of relativity" article. I appeal to a consensus to change that policy (or that agreement to dismiss all criticism) to allow "real" fair coverage of "CriticismsLCcritic (talk) 18:59, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Ps; In case I did not make the relevance of realism clear: Length contraction theorists claim that physical objects and the distances between them (stars, for instance) contract as a result of being observed/measured from from different frames in motion relative whatever is observed. This frame-dependence of physical lengths and distances denies realism, as defined most simply above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LCcritic (talkcontribs) 19:10, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
There are well-documented, published, criticisms of relativity; what makes such criticisms worth mentioning is not their acceptance or denial by anyone, or even that they are or are not criticisms, but that they are well documented in reliable sources as such. After all, Wikipedia has many articles and sections on notable pieces of bullshit, such as the flat earth, homeopathy, astrology, etc. The difference is two-fold 1) Wikipedia only presents information on such pieces of known bullshit in proportion to how the reliable sources do. Any wingnut with a website can say anything they want, that doesn't mean Wikipedia needs to mention it, even to refute it. Some stuff is just not worth mentioning here. This has nothing to do with whether something is bullshit or not, but rather, how much attention the bullshit has gotten. 2) Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy doesn't demand we give equal credence to the possibility that every position is equally valid. Rather, we're allowed to call bullshit "bullshit", and not pretend like it's filet mignon. If there aren't any widely accepted criticisms of relativity within the science community, then we say that there aren't. We don't pretend as though, merely because such criticisms exist, and even if such criticisms are notable enough in their own right, that they are accepted. That doesn't mean we don't mention the notable criticisms, we do mention them. To show how they are widely refuted. --Jayron32 19:24, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
If you are proposing that Wikipedia makes a specific change to policy, please indicate what specific change you are proposing, and the grounds on which you are advocating such a change. - the village pump noticeboards are not an appropriate place to discuss specific problems with specific articles. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:16, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Allow criticism of relativity from published realists. Presently no "real" such criticism is allowed. (See quote from "Criticisms..." article lead.)LCcritic (talk) 20:07, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
So what specific changes to the wording of which specific policy are you proposing? AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:04, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
I don't know what specific policy resulted in the quoted lead statement that no criticism of relativity is "accepted by the scientific community?" Yet the list of critical publications on my talk page has all been swept aside as not legitimate, and that opinion seems to have a consensus here, as the distinction between "mainstream" and "fringe" science. The result is that the philosophy of shrinking physical objects and the distances between them, between stars for instance (length contraction) stands as "mainstream," allowing no criticism from realism, i.e., as succinctly quoted from Wikipedia on realism above. Ps: "Real criticism" is based on realism, as so defined. My list of authors are examples of realists, in this context. LCcritic (talk) 18:21, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
Define "real criticism." — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 14:29, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
TIMECUBE IS TRUTH. --108.38.196.65 (talk) 17:05, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

LCcritic, the relevant policy is "Reliable Sources", which has been summarized as saying that Wikipedia articles on science need to be based on "reputable publications in peer-reviewed journals, books published by a known academic publishing house or university press, or divisions of a general publisher which have a good reputation for scholarly publications". As you surely know, there's an abundance of reliable sources (according to this definition) stating that special relativity is logically self-consistent, thoroughly tested, and empirically successful (and, by the way, completely compatible with objective realism). There are no modern reputable sources (according to the stated definition) claiming otherwise. This is the basis for the statement you quoted from the article on "criticisms of relativity". In contrast, all the sources you've advocated for inclusion in the article fail to meet the stated criteria of "reliable sources". So, in order to get those sources into Wikipedia you would have to change the Wikipedia definition of "reliable sources" - or else persuade Wikipedia to allow unreliable sources. I don't think either of those is likely.EllisMcgraw (talk) 19:36, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

EllisMcgraw, I understand the policy labeled as "Reliable Resources." Of course the task remains to define "reliable" in a way which is fair to both critics of relativity and "mainstream" defenders. If a consensus of 'mainstream defenders' here, with 'policy' supporting them against so called "fringe" arguments (just name calling by 'main camp relativity') consent to delete all criticism from realism (as defined above before being re-defined by relativity), then the result is that Wikipedia has an article on "Criticisms of the theory of relativity" excluding all criticisms from realism as cited in my "Published criticisms of relativity" section on my talk page. "...that special relativity is logically self-consistent, thoroughly tested, and empirically successful (and, by the way, completely compatible with objective realism). There are no modern reputable sources (according to the stated definition) claiming otherwise." But "reputable sources" are defined by the criteria of hard core mainstream relativity "experts," denying any expertise among critics, like those I have frequently cited. "Objective realism" indeed. No real world independent of observation. Relativity re-defined realism to suit Einstein... who denied a 'real world' in favor of the opinion/philosophy that 'reality' depends on the frame of reference from which it is observed. All Is Relative to frame of reference. This was his philosophy as the 'father of relativity.' No criticism can therefore be reasonable, according to his followers. Reality is determined by frame of reference. Period. End of argument. LCcritic (talk) 22:54, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
LCcritic, you say the task remains to define "reliable", but that's not true, because the Wikipedia policy on Reliable Sources already includes the applicable definition of "reliable". Again, reliable sources are defined (for Wikipedia) as "reputable publications in peer-reviewed journals, books published by a known academic publishing house or university press, or divisions of a general publisher which have a good reputation for scholarly publications". As you can see, the criteria don't say anything about relativity or any other specific subject. Wikipedia simply defers to the major academic journals, universities, publishing houses, etc., to judge what is reliable and notable. So your quarrel is really with those institutions, not with Wikipedia. (An editor once claimed the moon is made of green cheese, but all his edits were reverted on the grounds that his sources were not "reliable". He responded that this was an insidious Catch-22: "The reason you people say there are no "reliable sources" for the moon being made of green cheese is because anyone who says the moon is made of green cheese is automatically considered unreliable!")EllisMcgraw (talk) 01:56, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
EllisMcgraw, I honestly challenge your reading comprehension. I said, "Of course the task remains to define "reliable" in a way which is fair to both critics of relativity and "mainstream" defenders. My appeal is to change Wikipedia policy on what "reliable" means as applied to criticisms of relativity, not to re-affirm your by-the-book reiteration that "Wikipedia policy on Reliable Sources already includes the applicable definition of 'reliable'." Of course it does, and that definition excludes all the sources I cited which criticize relativity on the grounds that it denies realism. Relativity has re-invented the definition of realism, which you call "objective realism," usually called "scientific realism" which translates to a frame-of-reference centered definition based on Einstein's philosophy (which I have often repeated) that "reality" varies with all possible frames of reference. So you totally miss the point of this appeal and simply parrot present standard procedure here. No different than our last conversation which I terminated in my talk page section, "Going nowhere... fast." LCcritic (talk) 02:59, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
LCcritic, thanks, that clarifies things quite a bit. Previously you had been asked what specific change to what specific policy you were proposing, and you answered "I don't know what specific policy resulted in the quoted lead statement that no criticism of relativity is accepted by the scientific community" So I explained what the policy was that resulted in that statement. Now you say that you are fully aware of the policy that resulted in that statement, and you simply disagree with the policy and want it to be changed. Okay, so we come back to the question you were asked initially: What specific change to this policy are you proposing? You can't simply say "Change the policy so it allows me to insert material that the present policy doesn't allow". You have to propose a specific policy change. For example, you might propose that Wikipedia articles should treat personal web pages and self-published works on an equal footing with peer-reviewed journals and academic publications, and not reflect the predominant views of the mainstream scientific community. But I don't think any such proposal will find acceptance, since the existing policy of reflecting the mainstream scientific view is one of the cornerstones of the whole Wikipedia project. Please see AndyTheGrump's comments below.EllisMcgraw (talk) 03:39, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia is under no obligation to be 'fair' to anyone. We reflect the scientific consensus, and will continue to do so. This is not open to negotiation, regardless of how many times you waffle on about 'realism', 'frames of reference' and whatever other bees you have in your bonnet. To put it bluntly, we don't care whether you consider the scientific consensus to be wrong, our policy to be unfair, or Einstein's philosophy to be inconsistent with whatever version of reality it is you consider to be real. The only 'frame of reference' that matters as far as Wikipedia content is concerned is that provided by our rules, guidelines, and practices - and we aren't going to start writing exceptions into policy just because you don't like it. I suggest that rather than wasting your time and everyone else's by engaging in this self-evidently futile attempt to adapt Wikipedia to your own personal whim, you accept that it isn't going to change, and take your campaign against whatever it is you are campaigning against elsewhere. If you carry on as you are, you can be assured that our patience will run out - possibly quite soon - and at that point, you will be obliged to do so, whether you like it or not. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:26, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Editors, I have heard from the usual defenders of the realm against criticism of relativity by realists such as those I have cited in the "Published criticisms of relativity" section on my talk page. These realists all agree (unlike Einstein) that 'the real world' exists with all its intrinsic properties, dimensions, etc. independent of whatever frame of reference from which it might be measured. Are there any editors here who have read the above cited references and do not dismiss them all as "fringe," making all criticism from realism* unacceptable to the "scientific community" as the lead dismissal does ? *Note: Not my "personal whim," or point of view as accused. Realism (see definitions) is presently not allowed to criticize relativity in Wikipedia. LCcritic (talk) 19:06, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

(Repeating from above) The sources and your interpretations, as listed on your talk page, were dismissed on various previously shopped fora. For a partial overview of places where the dismissals have taken place, see here. DVdm (talk) 19:10, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
As I said, "I have (already) heard from the usual defenders of the realm. This includes you, DVdm. Re-read my question, "Are there any editors here...?" LCcritic (talk) 19:24, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
Only 9 editors have rejected your offering here, that is not even one third of a percent of the Village Pump's watchers! Obviously just an insignificant cabal of hidebound reactionaries bent on bollixing your noble cause. They won't prevail, because "consensus is determined by the quality of arguments", and your quest is just. 'Tis but a scratch, you've had worse. Persevere, Percival! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paradoctor (talkcontribs) 20:08, 16 April 2014‎
LCcritic, you asked if any editors don't dismiss your references as "fringe", but that isn't a relevant question unless you first change Wikipedia policy. As you yourself have acknowledged, according to current Wikipedia policy the references can only be accepted if they are published by a peer-reviewed journal, academic publisher, university presses, etc. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks of the content of your references. All that matters is that they are not from peer-reviewed journals, academic publishers, university presses, etc. You already agreed to this previously, when you scolded me for my lack of reading comprehension, and assured me that you understand full well why current Wikipedia policies don't allow your references. You said your aim is to change Wikipedia policy. But whenever someone asks what specific change you are proposing, you decline to answer. It's difficult for anyone to help if you won't/can't explain what you are requesting.EllisMcgraw (talk) 00:25, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
LCcritic, this is a discussion board regarding Wikipedia policy, not a forum for discussing the reliability of individual sources. If you really feel that you haven't pushed this stone up the hill long enough (you have), the reliable sources noticeboard is thataway. My advice to you continues to be to drop the stick, though. VQuakr (talk) 01:27, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
@LCcritic: you should be aware that the Arbitration committee has set up rules regarding fringe theories and pseudoscience as per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience and allowed a speedy process to deal with those who disruptively push fringe theories. Continued tilting at Windmills and refusing to acknowledge that fringe sources are not going to be allowed to be acceptable as sources will soon provide ample evidence that your editing in the subject area is unacceptably disruptive and will lead to you being topic banned and / or blocked from editing at all. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:33, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
TRPoD, Please read my opening appeal above and reply. If no criticism of relativity is "accepted by the scientific community" (among relativity theorists), then the whole article, "Criticisms..." is a sham. Please also read the section in my talk page referencing a good sampling of such criticisms, "Published criticisms of relativity." A core of "mainstream defending" editors has blocked my every attempt to include such criticism, claiming that all sources cited belong in the excluded "fringe" category... the "policy," I must presume which makes all criticism of relativity illegitimate. I have been seeking an authority here, other than my usual critics (who btw consistently violate civility protocol) who can rule on this as Wikipedia policy. If you agree (rule) that none of the critics I have cited are "legitimate," I will give up on trying to bring fair representation of criticism of relativity to Wikipedia. Thanks. LCcritic (talk) 18:31, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
@LCcritic: What specific changes to the text of WP:RS are you proposing? The word "relativity" does not appear within the text of that policy. VQuakr (talk) 19:21, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Gaming the edit counter with edit wars and users own user pages.[edit]

It seems engaging in edit wars though likely to get a user blocked can give users an extra hundred posts every now and again or more over time. I propose these edits me struck from the edit count to prevent inflating the status of wikipedia users who frequently edit war; I'm also not sure if your own user page should count; otherwise someone can just ramble on their page 6000 times in a weekend and become part of the top 10,000 contributors. Technically that would be in accordance with the rules. Cassandra Truth (talk) 20:45, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Why bother? Nobody with any sense thinks that raw edit count data indicates much anyway. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:30, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Per Andy, who gives a shit? Edit counts are a meaningless thing, and no one who makes any decision that matters at Wikipedia ever looks at them. Like pretty signatures and well designed user pages, edit counters are a mild amusement, but ultimately serve no purpose for building the encyclopedia. --Jayron32 19:15, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Edit counts do matter for when you're applying for more user rights (Article Reviewer needs at least 500 mainspace edits, for example), but generally the sysop doing the approving checks through edits looking for edit wars and such. Supernerd11 :D Firemind ^_^ Pokedex 14:20, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Question about disambiguation pages[edit]

Hello,

Should disambiguation pages include "disambiguation" in the title?

I created Wolf of Wall Street (disambiguation) and reformatted it a little thus: [3]

However, this has been redirected to Wolf of Wall Street and lacks "disambiguation" in the title, with the comment that it was "Unprintworthy redirects". Why do most disambiguation pages have "disambiguation" in the title, and some do not? Why should a redirect be "printworthy"?

Also, one of the films has been put under "See also" when it was a remake of the 1929 version despite the slight change in title and should, in my opinion, be listed with the other films.

And the additional material seems to violate the rules of Wikipedia:Disambiguation:

Wolf of Wall Street may refer to:

==See also==

My version is Wolf of Wall Street (disambiguation)

Wolf of Wall Street may refer to:

==Arts==

==People==

  • David Lamar (1876–1934), con man known as "The Wolf of Wall Street"
  • Bernard Baruch (1870–1965), American financier, stock investor and philanthropist sometimes referred to as "The Lone Wolf of Wall Street"

I think my version conforms more to the point. Please tell me if I'm off base.


Thanks, Parabolooidal (talk) 19:05, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Disambiguation pages only use the qualifier (disambiguation) if the base name has a primary topic. WP:DABNAME. When you "created" the dab at Wolf of Wall Street (disambiguation), you did so by cut-n-pasting the content from Wolf of Wall Street (which is bad) and created a WP:MALPLACED disambiguation page (which is also bad). Partial title matches are typically placed in See also, or removed from the disambiguation page entirely. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:29, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

This whole @/tagging/mention thing[edit]

Hi, guys-

I've been away for a while, so this might be a rather obtuse question, but what is the generally accepted practice (I assume there's not a policy yet, but thought this would be a good place to ask anyway) on stuff like the hatted bit of text here? On the one hand, I can see the utility in bulk-listing names of users whose input would be valuable... but another part of me thinks it's really, really, obnoxious. Since I bothered to post this question, I'm sure I'll end up doing it myself in the next week or so, but I wonder if there's been any fruitful discussion on this in my absence. How much is too much, do canvassing restrictions apply, etc.? Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 21:21, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't believe we have fully adapted canvassing, etc. guidelines and policies to account for the ability to ping users in this fashion. But I think the general principle remains the same. Bencherlite's ping flood there was functionally identical to leaving a talk page message for numerous users and was made in good faith with the aim of fostering discussion of interested parties in TFAR. OTOH, I have also seen other editors use ping floods to both explicitly canvas like-minded editors and as a means of harassing enemies. I think the current policies been generally sufficient, though it may be worth codifying acceptable and unacceptable use of pings somewhere if it is not already. Resolute 14:52, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Deletion of picture[edit]

Deletions like this one really distress me:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:Statue_of_Peter_the_great_in_Moscow

This was just ordinary picture of a very interesting and notable statue on very public view in Moscow. After its deletion, the corresponding article is left bereft and fairly pointless.

I don't care about Wikimedia Commons, but can anything be done to restore this and other pictures similarly deleted to Wikipedia, and to prevent such disruptive deletions in future? I am totally in favour of recognising reasonable copyright restrictions, but the idea that pictures of such publicly accessible views can be subject to copyright (other than the photographer's own) is completely ridiculous. On a scale of anality, the people who perform these kind of deletions must out-anal virtually all other website administrators in existence. Why can't they find something useful to do instead? Really, who is bothered that we have a picture of this statue? No one. Who is harmed? No one. Who is ever going to complain or ask us to take it down? No one. 86.171.42.228 (talk) 01:13, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

It appears the images were deleted from Commons because under Russian law, images of the statue in question are considered derivative works, the use of which requires a license from the original creator until the expiration of the copyright. Such copyrighted images can be hosted on Wikipedia if they have a valid fair use justification, but Commons cannot host them. Novusuna talk 01:39, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
Excellent polemic from the IP. As for Novusana, Russia is full of laws no one gives a damn about or pays the slightest attention to. It can almost be said to be a social pact (origin Peter the Great as it happens). The first place to look for this image would be the Russian wikipedia. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 09:36, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
Is there a time limit on these derivative works laws or are statues from Roman times even protected this way? Dmcq (talk) 13:32, 16 (UTC) April 2014
I would point out that the relevant law in the US is similar. Images of copyrighted public artwork like Forever Marilyn can only be uploaded locally under fair use rules or with free licensing from the author as with America's Response Monument. Images of the Peter the Great statue are used on the Russian Wikipedia, but with seemingly contradictory license tags, saying the images are released under CC-BY, but under Russian law, can only be used in non-commercial applications. Mr.Z-man 15:07, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
I thought US Law allowed the 2-D depiction of 3-D objects because there is always the "creative element" of what angle the 2-D image will capture. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:14, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
In the US , a photo of a 3D work of art installed in a public location in a country where there is no freedom of panorama, where the 3d artwork is still under copyright, is a derivative work, with both the photographer's implicit copyright, and the copyright of the original statue. While the photographer can release the photo as CC-BY, that still makes the image non-free due to the artwork copyright. If we need to illustrate the copyrighted artwork (if itself is notable) we ask that a CC-BY photo be made so that we only have the artwork copyright to worry about. --MASEM (t) 02:19, 17 April 2014 (UTC)