Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)

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The miscellaneous section of the village pump is used to post messages that do not fit into any other category. Please post on the policy, technical, or proposals pages, or - for assistance - at the help desk, rather than here, if at all appropriate. For general knowledge questions, please use the reference desk.	Shortcut: WP:VPM
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Centralized discussion
Proposals	Discussions	Recurring proposals
Proposal to require new users to have autoconfirmed status to create an article Proposal to rename Articles for Deletion to Articles for Discussion, include the discussion of mergers. Proposal for targeted flagging. Petitions to turn on, and not to turn on, the Flagged revisions extension. Discussion on adding language about schools to the organization notability guidelines. Discussion regarding the spam blacklist and reliability of sources Discussion of "self-promotion and indiscriminate coverage" in the Notability guideline. Discussion on retaining the restriction against using the string "bot" in usernames. Discussion on CfD speedy renaming criteria 6 (disambiguation fixes from an unqualified name). Discussion on refining Community de-adminship (aka Admin Recall) to formalize a RfC. Proposal for achieving infobox-template coherence of properties in Wikipedia(s) Note: inactive discussions, closed or not, should be archived.
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Contents 1 Okay, hands up anyone who wants to discuss..... 2 Article in national post mentions Wikipedia 3 Public access to U.S. federally funded science 4 talk page archival 5 One More Question About Criticism Sections 6 Would anyone want SMS alerts on watch list or a mobile app? 7 Biblical disambiguators 8 Harej running for BAG 9 Redundancy 10 How do I cite a catalog reference on the web 11 Backlog at Special:NewPages completely cleared 12 (British) New year's honours list 13 "Fixing" English 14 I need an opinion on an idea as it related to policy

[edit] Okay, hands up anyone who wants to discuss.....

Moved from Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. --MZMcBride (talk) 07:29, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

[Link removed see below]. In October while I was told about this website as a place where concerned editors were discussing what to do about BLPs, and that the board was private and pseudonyms were being used, and that there were a number of people using it (24?). Rather than detail all the rumours I was told, I thought I'd throw it up here and see what folks thought. At the time, I told the arbitration committee and left it with them. However, upon thinking about it, I am not comfortable with the idea that there is another secret board which I have on idea about whether it is wound up or...what? How do folks feel? Discussing this may highlight to WMF how frustrated some folks are with the BLP issue. I was tempted to make an RfC but there was no dispute as such so....do other editors want the board made not-secret? or what? Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:15, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Who's in charge? Can we trust them? I've heard of certain external forums where the IP addresses of participants were used in less-than-admirable ways, so I'm loath to buy a pig in a poke as my people would put it. The BLP mess needs fixing but let's be sure what the nature of this forum really is. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 05:21, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Empty forum ... I registered, and still nothing there. Still no permission to view anything. Perhaps they're just looking for people who will stupidly give them their wikipedia account name and password. oops. :-) Proofreader77 (talk) 05:26, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Is it possible that some kind soul "in the know" could tell the rest of us what this is about? What website, who is private, what pseudomymns, what is the other "secret board", and what has any of this to do with WP:SOFIXIT transforming itself by some untraceable magic into goatse? Oh yes, and what does this have to do with the usually quite coherent Casliber?

Err, nearly all decent forum software will salt your password so that it's impossible for even those with database access to retrieve it. (Obviously it could be recorded on submit, but my God what a waste of time. Why would I want your password? Mine is far more useful!) --MZMcBride (talk) 05:53, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

If you ever read my password, you'd understand why it's the top selling password on Amazon. ;-) Proofreader77 (talk) 06:25, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Err. What. Why would arbcom or anyone on wikipedia need to know about a site like that? And what's wrong with the current "forum to talk about wikipedia's BLP problem". The EEML thing aside, we don't live in a vacuum. Like minded folks are going to coordinate outside the confines of the project. Frankly the less intertwined wikipedia and the "BADSITE" are, the healthier each is. Protonk (talk) 05:59, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps it is just me, but Casliber's link sends me to goatse. ÷seresin 06:05, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

WTF, me too. Something I never wantred to see. Heironymous Rowe (talk)

Me three. I have an odd suspicion the board admins have seen this discussion. Tony Fox (arf!) 06:14, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Haha. It now redirects to the goatse.cx pic. No I probably do not want 'them' to decide what to do with BLPs. Unomi (talk) 06:18, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Could one of the "in" crowd tell those of us who haven't a clue just what this thread is about, and how it all relates to secret boards whose board admins have now "seen this discussion", and all explained in plain (or even fancy) English? How did sofixit become goatse and what has all this to do with external forums, BLPs and Casliber's usually quite coherent proposals? It would be a very kind gesture to enlighten the rest of us. Bielle (talk) 07:23, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

why is this an incident requiring admin attention. Personally I've discussed BLPs and associated problems off-line (you know not using the internet) and there is no problem with this. If there is such a forum, how is that different from a phone conference, meeting over coffee, or any other way that Wikipedian's meet to discuss things? Unless there is some evildoing to point to, what is the problem ? - Peripitus (Talk) 08:13, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

• Do you have any proof that what you say is indeed happening on that site? If not then why are you bringing this up here? --Coffee // have a cup // ark // 08:36, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
• Ok, there seems to be a fundamental problem with this thread. Wikipedia does not have any control over other websites. They can close their doors and discuss Wikipedia all they want, and there's not a damn thing admins, ArbCom, or even Jimbo can do about it. Also, I am personally a strong believer that any off-wiki activity except outing someone is irrelevant as far as on-wiki activity is concerned. So, I don't see any need to continue this conversation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beeblebrox (talk • contribs)
  • Agreed. --Coffee // have a cup // ark // 08:53, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I have seen it again and again, when veteran editors don't support an initiative, they will use procedural grounds, such as "wrong forum" to close the topic.

Casliber, a former arbcom, has a link showing possible evidence of a new secret mailing list. I suspect there is probably more evidence too?

Beeblebrox, ARK, Peripitus are you members of secret mailing list?

Casliber, if you don't start a RFC, I will. Will supporters of the flagged revision attempt to procedurally close the RFC too? Ikip 12:21, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

The link is: [link removed] I suggest the community decide for themselves. Per talk page rules, please not delete this link again. Ikip 12:25, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Is this some kind of crude joke Casliber? The link goes to a really crude picture now. If the site existed, I hope you scrapped it, before you made this public. Ikip 12:30, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

The most likely explanation, as per above, is that the site admins redirected upon learning of this thread. Throwaway85 (talk) 12:34, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Ikip, did you read the thread before posting? For future ref don't click on any links where "goatse" is mentioned.   pablo_hablo. 12:37, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Which image did it link to? That may tell us something about the admin's level of creativity and knowledge of shock sites. Jehochman ^{Make my day} 22:17, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Or Wikipedia. It was linked directly to the Wikipedia file that is used on the Wikipedia article for Goatse. Please note that article and the file in its infobox are NOT SAFE FOR WORK. Risker (talk) 22:40, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I dug through the contribution lists to find the site Casliber linked to above, & used that nice utility known as whois to shed a little light on the matter. The domain in question is owned by another domain, "1and1.com", which is based in Chesterbrook, Pennsylvania; I don't know of any Wikipedians/Wikimedians associated with that town. There is a name attached to the 1and1.com domain, but the person is not familiar to me either. (I'm off to bed, & leave further conspiratorial speculations to the rest of you.) -- llywrch (talk) 06:54, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

This may be of interest. NW (Talk) 11:21, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Unresolving. The word on the street is that this was a forum that was dedicated to tightening up BLP practices and that its members were coordinating to affect the outcomes of AFD discussions. There was nothing visible there because threads were deleted as soon as a discussion was closed. I'm hearing things about who was a member there, but am not repeating any names without independent confirmation. It appears possible to test the veracity of this by writing a script to test for unusual clusters of recent participation at AFDs of BLP subjects. Would one of our coders look into that avenue, please? At the very least it would help to settle the concerns if this is untrue. And if it is true (or nearly so) I would for my own part suggest amnesty for anyone who steps forward and explains this to the community within the next 24 hours. Durova³⁸⁶ 04:06, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I registered an account there, as "Earl Gray". I also have not looked at the website since making the account, much less make any edits. I also don't even remember my password. I think monsters are being seen here. Keegan (talk) 05:35, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

While you may have a point about clustering of votes, I am afraid it is much, much more likely to show clusters of voters coming in to "save" articles from deletion. The philosophical divide between the so-called "inclusionists vs deletionists" has been present for longer than almost everybody editing today has been registered on this site, and any study will show that certain editors fairly consistently vote in certain ways. Therefore, any such exercise will serve only to demonise those who have a common philosophy; witch-hunts to point fingers at people as possibly being a member of such a forum, when the same philosophy or voting pattern may be shared by hundreds of others who are completely uninvolved, is precisely what Wikipedia is not. Shall we also equally suspect that inclusionists are using secret, yet undiscovered forums to force loosening of the GNG, or ganging up to keep articles of little worth? I am rather certain that my own votes weigh heavily on the deletionist side, not because I am a true deletionist, but because there's little motivation to comment in favour of keeping articles when the overwhelming majority are kept, and when the threshold for deletion is constantly being raised. I can quite assure everyone that I do not participate in any external Wikipedia-related forums for any purpose. Risker (talk) 04:30, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, analysis of clustered AFD participations was one of the things that exposed the Poetlister sockfarm. An arbitration case has just come to completion about offsite coordination. The only fair thing to do is to look into all such matters evenhandedly when they arise. Durova³⁸⁶ 04:39, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

In the EEML case, you voted for this principle, and described it as the heart of the case. If this sofixit.org is, in fact, a site where a long list of administrators coordinated activity on deletions and other BLP related work, and where multiple steps were taken to obscure the Wikipedia usernames of those involved... I find it hard to square your vote in the EEML case with your comment here, which seems to suggest we let it go. Nathan ^T 04:40, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Hundreds of editors comment on AfDs every week; it's not the same two dozen or so, as was the case in the EEML. AfD is a highly public forum, as opposed to individual articles; activity at AfD is regularly scrutinised on an ongoing basis by many editors and administrators. As to such patterns meaning anything, all one has to do is run the same scripts looking for onwiki statements to find the editors most likely to vote keep or delete of BLPs onwiki, in case nobody has already noticed the same names in discussions (on both sides of the spectrum) for a long time. Some editors spend a great deal of time notifying all sorts of onwiki projects about ongoing deletion discussions (and more credit to them, as their work draws the interest of our diverse editor base), which means that there is no reasonable manner in which to differentiate people who have come to a discussion because they're watching onwiki pages or offwiki pages. Risker (talk) 05:39, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

You're really not listening, Durova. This is a topic in which a few hundred Wikipedians are involved in on a near-daily basis, posting throughout the encyclopedia on public pages that anyone can see. Many people have openly declared their positions on this topic, in multiple onwiki pages. We have onwiki resources that specifically seek to draw interested editors to these public and widely read discussions. That the same names keep coming up is going to tell us that the same names keep coming up; there's no way to tell the source of their interest unless someone sends their archives in, as happened in the EEML case, and there is obvious collusion and canvassing as became apparent in the EEML case. Telling us that something exists doesn't mean that there is anything we can do about it. Risker (talk) 06:04, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I skimmed this thread and was left with two questions:

1. Did Durova get all of her information in a Skype conversation (off-wiki activity by Wikipedians, oh my!)?
2. Where in the hell did Durova get the idea that she has the power to grant people amnesty?

I'd suggest re-archiving this thread. I don't see any good coming of it. Though, as always, sense will be tossed aside in favor of wiki-sleuthing over a lazy holiday. *shrugs* --MZMcBride (talk) 07:20, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

This is way ahead of that discussion, Risker. People didn't think there was much to be done about Mantanmoreland either, and someone had even been using malware to try to figure out whether he was socking. That dragged on for two years until the community finally rolled up its sleeves and looked at edit histories. That was when we finally got consensus that he was gaming the system. Durova³⁸⁶ 18:42, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

MZMcBride, from what I can tell, you were involved in this forum in some capacity. Therefore, your requests to archive the discussion tend to inflame suspicions. I, for one, don't really understand what this group was up to. If you or someone else could explain it to us publicly (or even to arbcom-l), I think it would do a lot for promoting transparency. Among the reasonable questions one might have: (1) Does the group still operate? (2) Did vote-stacking occur? Cool Hand Luke 10:16, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

It looks like a forum to discuss biographies of living people. Forums have a number of benefits over using Wikipedia (far less visibility, no database dumps, greater anonymity, better software, etc.). I didn't vote-stack and I don't believe anyone else did, though all of the discussions seem to have been deleted by the person running the site, so I can't really say for sure (it had been months since I last logged in before I did so a few days ago). For all I know, there could have been a massive cabal, but I doubt it. --MZMcBride (talk) 06:42, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

this suggests that it set off a raw nerve with you, so I find this hard to believe. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:51, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, people are quick to look for an agenda behind my posts, so I don't think it's unreasonable to look for one behind yours. I realize it's the holidays, but an incredibly stupid deletion nomination followed by a wholly inappropriate post at a noticeboard for incidents needing administrator attention? I was taking the good faith approach and simply assuming you were burned out and needed a break. Though, if that isn't the case, I'm back left wondering why you're making the moves you're making (and doing it in such a haphazard, amateurish fashion). --MZMcBride (talk) 07:07, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Come off it MZM, you are doing your best to bury this thread, and moving it was one way. I had placed it there as it was a flag of user conduct for review - agreed there was nothing much to do while no-one admitted, but your behaviour ever since suggest you know very well what the site is and are intimately involved. And now the I-don't-know-what-the-site-is-oh-yes-I-do-but-not-much come over as lame. Hence the AN/I board seems entirely appropriate to me. So I made a delete call which sank? Who cares Happens all the time. I'd like you to quit hurling negative adjectives in my direction and admit you were/are annoyed by the thread's presence. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:25, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Err, I think it was rather obvious I was annoyed by the thread's presence, though I don't think it's the same type of annoyance you think it is. I wasn't really annoyed that you wanted to discuss the site. I realized long ago that anything involving Wikipedians will never stay secret or internal or private for long, and the nature of this particular endeavor made that ten times truer. My annoyance came from where you placed the thread, and it annoyed me enough that I decided to move the thread myself. Cas, you're not new here. You know that AN/I isn't the place you go to just "have a conversation" with the community about something. That's what the village pumps are for. AN/I is a filthy cesspool of drama—it's a place where you post if you're after some sort of administrator action or review, not somewhere you post if you're after a calm and rational discussion of the serious issues facing biographies of living people and what steps (if any) people are taking to address these issues, on-site or off. And even if you'd managed to spend the last three-and-a-half years here and still have not figured out where to post, there are giant boxes at the top of the pages explaining this. (And I say this as someone who has posted in the wrong place before with some regularity.)

I'm still curious (perhaps concerned is a better word) about your motivations, which didn't look particularly pure from the start and you've certainly done nothing over the past few days to make them look any purer (though undoubtedly you'd say the same of me). You say you're after some type of "user conduct" review, but you know that trying to regulate off-site behavior is a powder keg. When you're posting to AN/I about the erotic fiction that some users administer or the other off-site activities that Wikipedians are involved in, it'll make your quest for "review" here seem a bit more legitimate. But you know that it's patently none of your damn business what people choose to do (or discuss) elsewhere. You're truly in no position to judge what others do with their free time, you can only judge what people do on-site. If you find a pattern of impropriety on Wikipedia by specific users, by all means, feel free to post to AN/I and ask for review. But that's not what you did. You didn't do your homework and then ask for help when you got stuck, did you? (And, as Risker notes, the irony here is that if you did a large-scale analysis of voting behavior in deletion discussions, the odds heavily favor finding collusion among inclusionists, not deletionists.)

You've known about this site since October and only decided to discuss this now. Why? I don't know. Perhaps you've just been busy, but when I look at the broader pattern of your behavior lately, it looks like you're hitting some stage of burnout. This could be an isolated week for you, but I doubt it. Simply put, for all intents and purposes, it looks like you're trolling. Nobody goes to post at AN/I unless they're looking for drama. Nobody goes to file a deletion discussion for a page involved in a weeks-long nasty dispute unless they're looking for drama. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your actions, but they're pretty transparent trolling (to me, at least, "it takes one to know one," as they say). And trolling is usually one of the stages of burnout (Cremepuff222 just re-demonstrated this lesson pretty spectacularly). If we go back a bit further, I think there are some pretty clear indicators you're (slowly) burning out. The best example of this would probably be your quick drop out from the Arbitration Committee when presented with the opportunity. This is why I politely suggested you take a break, though you blew off the suggestion. Oh well. I've watched this burnout pattern happen a lot (to myself and a lot of others). I'm fairly confident you'll be able to recover, though. So it's not all bleak. :-)

You didn't ask for my analysis or opinion, but I provided it anyway, with the caveat that I could be completely wrong. Though, after a couple of years here, I'm fairly good at spotting these kinds of things. If you want to have a calm and rational discussion about biographies of living people, the benefits and detriments of off-site discussions about biographies, or something similar, here is a pretty good place to start (or on my talk page). I'm more than happy to have a conversation with you if you stop the bullshit and the antics. I hope you're enjoying the holidays. --MZMcBride (talk) 01:32, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

I must say I can't agree with the statement "Nobody goes to post at AN/I unless they're looking for drama." Were that true, we wouldn't need an AN/I board. We could close it down and reduce drama. I'm also confused by the "It looks like a forum to discuss biographies of living people." comment, which was apparently posted after the link changed. Firsfron of Ronchester 05:43, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

If you can't fathom why I wouldn't remain an arb unless dragged kicking and screaming after a few people I respect suggested it was time to leave then that says more about you than me. But I will leave this discussion now and you can explain to the community at large rather than continually deflecting.Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:54, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

MZMcBride, it has been suggested that you were the "person running the site." Do you know why people would say that? If it was not you, could you tell us who it was? Feel free to email arbcom-llists.wikimedia.org. I, for one, would appreciate candor. Cool Hand Luke 11:06, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, some straight answers would be nice. So far MZMcBride has responded by trying to close down the discussion, moving it from ANI, throwing in tl;dr distractions like turning on Casliber and complaining about inclusionists, and claiming that Wikipedia wants to control all off-site activities of its editors. This is all smoke and mirrors. MZMcBride appears to have been running a forum at which admins and others coordinated their activities in getting BLPs deleted (a la the Eastern European mailing list, which just ended in lengthy bans), and once this forum was revealed at ANI someone redirected it to goatse, which really makes me respect those involved </sarc>. Then MZMcBride joined the thread about it, like a criminal returning to the scene of the crime. So, who else has been playing silly buggers in the Biography Euthanasia Squadron? Fences&Windows 00:57, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Well from poking around on the site I can confirm it existed and that the forum was named Sisyphus. Not much else.©Geni 03:56, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I have reason to believe that it was Professor Plum ... in the library ... with the candlestick. Hurry now, there's not much time before these people take over the world, one free Encyclopedia that anyone can edit at a time. - Rjd0060 (talk) 19:51, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Article in national post mentions Wikipedia

See: national post.

--Kim Bruning (talk) 13:40, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

That's actually a blog posting by one of the columnists hosted by the newspaper; it doesn't appear in the newspaper as an article. Mindmatrix 14:25, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Any comments on the posting? --Kim Bruning (talk) 09:59, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Public access to U.S. federally funded science

If you're in the U.S., or are a U.S. citizen, please read and respond to this Request for Public Comment from the Office of Science and Technology Policy regarding enhancing public access to archived publications resulting from research funded by Federal science and technology agencies. All are urged to respond to this pivotal opportunity, as individuals and on behalf of institutions and organizations. Your input will be critical in helping the administration form a deep and balanced view of stakeholders' interest in ensuring public access to publicly funded research.

Please email publicaccess@ostp.gov or post comments to this blog no later than January 21, 2010 (the deadline was extended two weeks) answering these questions:

1. How do authors, primary and secondary publishers, libraries, universities, and the federal government contribute to the development and dissemination of peer reviewed papers arising from federal funds now, and how might this change under a public access policy?

2. What characteristics of a public access policy would best accommodate the needs and interests of authors, primary and secondary publishers, libraries, universities, the federal government, users of scientific literature, and the public?

3. Who are the users of peer-reviewed publications arising from federal research? How do they access and use these papers now, and how might they if these papers were more accessible? Would others use these papers if they were more accessible, and for what purpose?

4. How best could federal agencies enhance public access to the peer-reviewed papers that arise from their research funds? What measures could agencies use to gauge whether there is increased return on federal investment gained by expanded access?

5. What features does a public access policy need to have to ensure compliance?

6. What version of the paper should be made public under a public access policy (e.g., the author's peer reviewed manuscript or the final published version)? What are the relative advantages and disadvantages to different versions of a scientific paper?

7. At what point in time should peer-reviewed papers be made public via a public access policy relative to the date a publisher releases the final version? Are there empirical data to support an optimal length of time? Should the delay period be the same or vary for levels of access (e.g., final peer reviewed manuscript or final published article, access under fair use versus alternative license), for federal agencies and scientific disciplines?

8. How should peer-reviewed papers arising from federal investment be made publicly available? In what format should the data be submitted in order to make it easy to search, find, and retrieve and to make it easy for others to link to it? Are there existing digital standards for archiving and interoperability to maximize public benefit? How are these anticipated to change?

9. Access demands not only availability, but also meaningful usability. How can the federal government make its collections of peer-reviewed papers more useful to the American public? By what metrics (e.g., number of articles or visitors) should the Federal government measure success of its public access collections? What are the best examples of usability in the private sector (both domestic and international)? And, what makes them exceptional? Should those who access papers be given the opportunity to comment or provide feedback?

Please be sure to include your name, title and affiliation if applicable, city, and state. Thank you for making these important comments! 99.34.78.67 (talk) 03:53, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedi mention in one comment fwiw,

http://blog.ostp.gov/2009/12/21/policy-forum-on-public-access-to-federally-funded-research-features-and-technology/comment-page-1/#comment-10873

Nerdseeksblonde (talk) 12:07, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] talk page archival

I've been told to not archive a talk page Talk:Primeverse/Archive 1 because the editor said the actual talk page was an archive Talk:Primeverse but at the time I did it, it was active [1]. See User talk:Collectonian#Future predator. I don't see why a talk page to an page Primeverse should be turned into an archive, since the page is still live. Where would you discuss the redirect? I have seen discussions on the redirects themselves occur on redirect talkpages.

Are redirect talk pages live? Shouldn't they be live? 70.29.211.9 (talk) 05:02, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Collectonian&oldid=333919420 for the old discussion I had with user:Collectonian, since he deleted the conversation from his talk page. 70.29.211.9 (talk) 05:25, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

The article was redirected. It has properly been marked as a talk archive with the header noting the new talk page is the full article. This is done with every such redirect/merge talk page, versus deletion of the talk page. IP pointlessly "archived" the page to another page when it was beyond unnecessary. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 05:18, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

The redirect is a live page, and discussion on the redirect should occur on the redirect's talk page, which means it should be live. If it were an archive, talk concerning the redirect would be dumped into an archive while a live discussion is going on, and that shouldn't happen. 70.29.211.9 (talk) 05:24, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Redirects are not articles. There is nothing to discuss on them anymore. The talk page was for an article that was redirect. It is properly archived as is, without your silly moving of it to another page. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 05:27, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Redirects are not articles, but they are still pages, and still live, and I have seen discussions dealing with the redirects themselves on redirect talk pages, which would seem to be the appropriate page to place the discussion. 70.29.211.9 (talk) 05:49, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the IP here. Redirects may not be articles right now but they may have been articles in the past and they may well be articles again in the future. -- Derek Ross | Talk 17:49, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

At which point they can be unmarked as an archive, versus the IP's preferences which actually do a defacto hide that there was every any discussion, and may make it harder for anyone curious about the redirect to know if it was redirected/merged for a reason. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 18:04, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] One More Question About Criticism Sections

Why do so few of the pages have a criticism section anymore? This makes all the article seem like a one sided discussion. You will lose many readers and have fewer visitors to this web site because there are so few open minded articles in it anymore. I liked wiki how it was before.

BRING BACK THE CRITICISM SECTIONS!!!

from wiki user J Jensen seatle wa —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.2.216.137 (talk) 13:57, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Criticism sections. Their not forbidden, but their decidedly discouraged. From personal experience, integrating most of the content in criticism sections usually (not always) makes for a better, easier to read, article.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 02:31, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Based on my experience with them, I think Jimbo gets to the heart of it most pithily: "And I agree with the view expressed by others that often, they are a symptom of bad writing. That is, it isn't that we should not include the criticisms, but that the information should be properly incorporated throughout the article rather than having a troll magnet section of random criticisms." There are times when they're appropriate, but they should be used sparingly. Askari Mark (Talk) 20:22, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Would anyone want SMS alerts on watch list or a mobile app?

Sometimes it is helpful to take notes during dead time when all you have is a phone. You may not be able to post well formed prose, but you can post notes on a talk page or revert vandalism etc. Nerdseeksblonde (talk) 15:19, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Biblical disambiguators

If you have a moment, please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion#Biblical disambiguators. Thank you!
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 07:02, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Harej running for BAG

This is due notification that I have been nominated to become a member of the Bot Approvals Group. My nomination is here. @harej 05:46, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Redundancy

Here's something I don't recall running across before: an article (Titus Canyon) that repeats, word for word, the content of a section within another article (Places_of_interest_in_the_Death_Valley_area#Titus_Canyon. The content was added in both places by the same editor on the same date. It has issues—including how-to, travelogue, sourcing, and probably OR—but before cleaning or tagging I'd like to know what to do about the redundancy and don't know of a relevant policy or guideline. Rivertorch (talk) 06:53, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

• I don't quite follow. What do you need advice/opinion about, exactly?
  — V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 07:12, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
• Standard practice is for Places_of_interest_in_the_Death_Valley_area#Titus_Canyon to summarize the Titus Canyon article. This might be a simple matter of replicating the entire lead. Josh Parris 08:32, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Josh. That makes sense. Rivertorch (talk) 19:05, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] How do I cite a catalog reference on the web

I added a reference to Wen Tianxiang by David Burgess.I have the following link to the library source for the Maters Thesis. I would like to know what is the best way to add it to the reference. I have reviewed the template information and I have not been able to find anything.

http://catalog.wrlc.org/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?BBID=2449118

Thank You

Geminni —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geminni (talk • contribs) 17:40, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

See page source. Using {{cite}}:

Burgess, David J. (1985), Wen Tianxiang: a preliminary study of his life and poetry, http://catalog.wrlc.org/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?BBID=2449118 

OrangeDog (τ • ε) 18:09, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I had already gone to that page, but none of the categories seem to fit. url = is for references to copies of the book or parts of the book exist. doi = is for a digital object identifier. There are several other link references, but none seem to fit. The reference I have noted above will only give you information on were to find the source in the George Washington University. Do you have any other suggestions? Originally, I made a note after the entry, but it became surrounded by a dotted box. I was not sure what the dotted box indicated, so I took it out. Thank You--Geminni (talk) 21:28, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Dotted boxes happen

when you start lines with superflous whitespace

because MediaWiki thinks you are trying to use <code> tags.

URL links aren't necessary unless the source is only available online. See WP:Offline sources for details. As the paper doesn't appear to have any other internet presence, the GWU link seems as good as any. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 10:24, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Backlog at Special:NewPages completely cleared

[2], thanks to this perfectly sane editor. –MuZemike 04:24, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Here's the proof, by the way. –MuZemike 04:27, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

WOW! Though I don't know that I'd call him sane ;-) -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 04:35, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

So how many new pages did we have this month? OrangeDog (τ • ε) 13:02, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Nice work. - Rjd0060 (talk) 19:53, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] (British) New year's honours list

Just a reminder that honours are only officially conferred when they are conferred (now there's an oxymoron!). Until such time it is incorrect to refer to the subject of any honour by their post-honorific title. I see the obvious showbiz one (Mr Patrick Stewart) had already been knighted which I have corrected but everyone needs to be sharp about this. CrispMuncher (talk) 08:06, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Just to save some headscratching, our British friend CrispMuncher is talking about this edit to tthe Patrick Stewart article. I'm guessing that our friends across the pond have some tradition about using New Years in order to grant Knighthoods, which is what's bringing this up now...

Comment: I wanted to take the opportunity to comment about this in general. Please keep in mind that I'm not criticizing CrispMuncher specifically here. I personally find it terrible that, as a community, we've taken it upon ourselves to police things like this. Generally speaking it goes something like this: someone with authority to do so puts out a (essentially) press release regarding an upcoming event → news publications publish said press release → readers who are Wikipedia editors read press release → same readers edit related Wikipedia article(s) → other editors revert/edit war over inclusion of content based on "it hasn't happened yet!" (essentially relying on WP:CRYSTAL). As with the vast majority of Wikipedia policy and guidelines, applying the underlying principles of our practices requires a judicious dose of reasoning (often erroniously referred to as "common sense"). To use this as an example, I'm fairly confidant that both the British Aristocracy knows what their doing, and that there is enough attention to this issue that any "outlier" mistakes would be quickly corrected after the fact. If it's reasonably certain that Patrick Stewart is going to be knighted Real Soon Now™, then just leave the edits adding "Sir" to his article alone. Reverting those edits just makes us editors, as a group, look like dicks.

ps.: just to let you all know, I'm on vacation right now and I'm drunk, so if this post makes me look like a dick, please just ignore it!
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 08:32, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

No, what makes us look like dicks is to be so obsessed with being bang-up-to-date that we are willing to jump the gun, and sacrifice correctness in favour of currency. Stewart is only an example. Has Rick Parfitt got his OBE yet? Has anyone on the list been to see the Queen (or authorised official) and receive their honour? Today's announcements are official ones rather than mere speculation, but it does not change the fact they mere announcements rather than actual conferral. CrispMuncher (talk) 09:12, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Maybe there's something about the nature of titles that makes this level of "accuracy" worth it, I don't know (although, if you'll allow this upstart American to set aside "good faith" for a moment, I have to say that this looks like some sort of pride issue. I likely just don't have enough respect for the Aristocracy to see the Impending Doom inherent in stating that someone is a "knight" a couple of days before they're "knighted". C'est la vie). I just want to reiterate that my comment really isn't directed at you in particular, nor with the alien social customs of you Brits. This (updating articles at the first hint that something has changed) is hardly a new phenomenon, after all. I apologize for making you feel embattled at all, this was merely a convenient post for me to spout off about my unimportant personal views. Just trying to provide a little perspective, is all.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 09:29, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

No offence taken - I fully recognise the difference between robust discussion and personal slight. I do find it slightly objectionable on procedural grounds - would you describe a US President Elect as President simply because he will be President? You may not care for the British honours system or its quirks but that does not affect the validity of those quirks. The difference between announcement and conferment can amount to far more than a few days though - from memory Rudy Guiliani waited several years before receiving his (honourary) knighthood. In fact looking him up I notice another mistake in that honorary knights are not entitled "Sir" as the infobox states.

If Stewart got hit by a bus today, after the announcement but before the Queen's ceremony, would he be "Sir" in his obituary? Would it matter if the bus were powered by dilithium crystals? (The first question is serious ... the second shows that there's something about typing comments online that brings out the 13-year-old.) - DavidWBrooks (talk) 20:27, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

However, I'm smarter than that - that just shows how endemic it is. If the tide can't be turned I'll save my breath since it seems like a lost cause. CrispMuncher (talk) 10:07, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, I agree with CrispMucher in the main. Just commenting to point out the honorary knights by convention shouldn't be Sir in the infoboxes (don't know whether you were suggesting they should or shouldn't), IIRC. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 10:14, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

To be fair (and sensitive), I would say the same if we were talking about swearing someone in to political office (President vs. President Elect). Keeping in mind here several very important qualifiers: The election having been complete, and there being little if any notable controversy about the result, and that the ceremony is within days.

I personally am an ex-military person myself, so the specific honorifics concept that we're discussing here isn't completely foreign to me. Quite a bit of this has to do with context, after all. Taking the POTUS title, as an example: if I were in uniform or serving in some other official capacity at the time, using the term "President" vs. "President Elect" would be extremely important. As a "journalist"/editor, writing a relatively informal ("unofficial" may be more appropriate word choice here) article covering the subject... not so important, as long as the specific context of the writing is considered (ie, saying "The US President Barack Obama, on December 31, 2008, stated..." would absolutely be wrong).

In terms of factual accuracy however, it's important to go in the complete opposite direction! For example, assuming that what you're mentioning above about Rudi is correct (and you would know better then I), then you should absolutely make an edit to his article.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 10:30, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

(ec)Further clarification: It's not like they will become xBE's tomorrow, it could take upwards of a year for their honours to be awarded. Furthermore, if any of them receive criminal sentences or decline their honours then they're not going to receive them at all. Let's avoid rushing ahead to introduce inaccuracies and remember that this is a work in progress. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 10:37, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

They have already indicated they will accept the honours, or the announcement would not have been made. Johnbod (talk) 11:50, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

No doubt, but there's many a slip twixt cup and lip as the saying goes. It's all speculative until after they receive the award. -- Derek Ross | Talk 01:34, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

What about Tony Blair, who AFAIK has not collected his Congressional Medal (is it?) after what, 3 years now? Johnbod (talk) 10:46, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Being awarded a Congressional Medal does not involve a change of name or style, and AFAIK though he has not collected it Tony Blair has still been awarded it, whereas Patrick Stewart will not be a knight until the monarch dubs him with a sword, not when it is announced. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 11:32, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

well yea, I did (heavily) qualify my comment above with the fact that I know next to nothing about the specific subject (British honorary titles, or whatever they are). Maybe there's something about this particular subject that makes it especially important, and based on the above three comments that seems to be likely... I was just trying to generally comment about how we tend to be "bitey" when it comes to this area of behavior, is all. Part of the problem is the interface; since these sorts of issues are rather black and white, the info can either be in the article or not be there. I think that it's probably a good idea for "patrollers" to make a real effort to explain themselves in these cases, is all. Do the revert, but post on the talk page and on the users talk page, explaining the deal. Which, incidentally, kudos to CrispMuncher for starting this discussion!
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 11:43, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I may need to revise my opinion[3]. The BBC could always be wrong of course. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 13:56, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] "Fixing" English

I just read this article on Ars Technica that I figured many of you would appreciate: Purging the Queen's English of "tweet," "app," and "sexting". Enjoy, and Happy New (Decade)!
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 00:19, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

[edit] I need an opinion on an idea as it related to policy

I borrowed (and credited, before anyone asks) the userpage design I current have from Phaedriel. She has a system to cycle her today's wikipedian section so that every 24-hours it auto-rotates, and I was considering doing something like that for quotes and thoughts and observation that I like to make occasionally. Before I went forward with the idea I wanted to know if that was frowned on in any respects. TomStar81 (Talk) 06:58, 2 January 2010 (UTC)