Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Philippe Leclerc de Hauteclocque

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted MilHistBot (talk) 14:10, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Philippe Leclerc de Hauteclocque[edit]

Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (talk)


For a while now I've been collecting material for articles that never get written on the WWII campaign in the South of France. I found a book in Melbourne on Marshal Leclerc and bought it. His article was a mess, at least the English version was, so I fixed it up. And so here it is, an account of the famous Gaulliste de la Premier Jour. Visit his museum when in Paris. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:08, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Comments

  • Just a heads-up that I'm not pointing out things terms that might need translating.
    • It's hard to know what needs translating and what doesn't. As with German, there are some terms we military historians habitually render in the original language.
  • "the only adjoining Free French territory that controlled Axis Powers": I don't know what that means.
    • Corrected to: Chad, the only Free French territory that shared a border with territory controlled Axis Powers, along its Sahara Desert border with Italian-controlled Libya. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:09, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I copyedited the article per my copyediting disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 17:14, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Support: a departure from the normal, but still up to your usual standard! Interesting read. I have a few suggestions for you to consider and do with as you will:

  • should this be in italics: "sous lieutenant" in the Early life section?
    Yes. Corrected. Hawkeye7 (talk) 13:49, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
  • inconsistent presentation: "commissioned as a sous lieutenant" v. "He was promoted to Lieutenant" (caps and italics, as above);
    De-capitalised. Hawkeye7 (talk) 13:49, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
  • wording: " In one action, two horses were shot under him" --> " In one action, two horses were shot out from under him"? (not sure about this one, though, I could well be wrong, so feel free to ignore);
    Not sure either. Gone with your version. Hawkeye7 (talk) 13:49, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
  • wording: "given early admission to the course for promotion to capitaine" --> "given early admission to the capitain's promotion course"? (this might be a little tigher)
    I wanted to make it clear that the course was for promotion to captaine, not a promotion course 'for a captaine. Hawkeye7 (talk) 13:49, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
  • inconsistent presentation: "World War II" and "Second World War", and also "World War I"
    French follows English: First World War (Première Guerre mondiale) and Second World War (Seconde Guerre mondiale). So we'll go with that. Hawkeye7 (talk) 13:49, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I suggest starting a new paragraph at this sentence: "He broke his leg in two places in a fall from his horse in 1936..." (as it doesn't seem related to the information appearing in the paragraph before it);
    Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 13:49, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
  • capitalisation: "in the battle of the Falaise Pocket" --> "in the Battle of the Falaise Pocket" (for consistency with how you present the other battle names);
    Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 13:49, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
  • "Fortunately, the German commander..." (not sure that it is best to use "fortunately" here, as it implies a point of view, I think);
    Removed. Hawkeye7 (talk) 13:49, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
  • "This was taken as death sentence" --> "This was taken as a death sentence"?
    Well spotted. Hawkeye7 (talk) 13:49, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I wonder if a little more context should be added here: "As new CEFEO commander, Leclerc began in October 1945 in French Indochina, first breaking a Vietminh blockade around Saigon..." (for instance, clarification that they were attempting to regain their colonial possessions, which had been lost after the Japanese entered the war...(or something similar - I'm not an expert in this area, though, so my suggest might be overly simplistic). It probably wouldn't need much more than a short sentence)
    I didn't rewrite this section, as it was as long as I thought it needed to be, but it seems that the story is not well known. Hawkeye7 (talk) 13:49, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
    Okay, I have added some background. It's one of those things that gets more complicated the more that you know about it. Hawkeye7 (talk) 12:04, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I suggest attributing this quote in text: "like the Americans later, could conquer Vietnamese territory but could not hold it";
    Struck this. Hawkeye7 (talk) 12:04, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
  • "in the absence of d'Argenlieu" --> I don't think he has been mentioned before, perhaps a little more detail is needed (e.g. full name etc.) and why wasn't he there?
    D'Argenlieu appears in the Gabon section, conducting a mass. He then parades through Paris with Leclerc and de Gaulle. Hawkeye7 (talk) 13:49, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
    Added a bit more. Hawkeye7 (talk) 12:04, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
  • "he warned that "anti-communism will be a useless tool unless the problem of nationalism is resolved" (warned by whom?)
    Added a bit more explanation. Hawkeye7 (talk) 12:04, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
  • "Leclerc was appointed Inspector of Land Forces in North Africa" (when?) --> e.g. something like this might be smoother: "A month after his return, Leclerc was appointed Inspector of Land Forces in North Africa..." AustralianRupert (talk) 12:11, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
    Thanks for your review. Much appreciated. Hawkeye7 (talk) 12:04, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

CommentsSupport by Peacemaker67 (send... over) 12:49, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

  • I reviewed the nomination of this article for GA, so am quite familiar with it.
  • I looked fairly closely at the prose when I reviewed it for GA, and have looked at the edits since I reviewed it. I am happy with the prose.
  • Checklinks indicates a couple of the external links are unstable redirects or change domain.
  • no alt text on images (not an ACR requirement)
  • no indication of any copyvios.
  • Ordre de la Libération in the infobox is rendered as Order of Liberation in the text, consistency.
  • "He was unsuccessful in finding a solution" is probably unfair, it was Sainteny that was responsible for negotiations with the Vietminh. A more nuanced explanation is needed in the lead I think.
  • suggest refbegin and refend templates for the References section
  • He is listed as being involved in the French Conquest of Morocco in the infobox, but Morocco was essentially conquered before WWI, and Le Clerc had nothing to do with that.
  • Probably worth indicating his death occurred in Algeria in the lead.
  • Will take another look tomorrow.
  • I'm not sure about the French unit designations not being translated. We translate German units (with the notable exceptions of Panzer and Panzergrenadier, as they seem to be English terms now), and I rather think we should be doing the same with the French. ie 11th Chasseurs Regiment, 8th Moroccan Spahis Regiment etc.
    • We are doing the same with French. I don't know who decided that "panzer" and "panzergrenadier' don't get translated, but it was already the practice amongst English-speaking military historians in the 1940s. "Chasseur" and "Spahi" don't get translated either. So "11e Régiment de Chasseurs" in French could be rendered as "11th Chaussers Regiment" in English. The convention amongst English-speaking military historians is to not translate the abbreviations, so the 13th Demi-Brigade of the Foreign Legion is the 13e DBLE. (Similarly, the International Federation of Association Football is FIFA.) Now that I'm on top of the translation templates, I can render them this way, if there is support amongst the MilHist Project for this. I looked at existing articles like Régiment de marche du Tchad for guidance. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:55, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
      • Definitely need to get some consensus on it, I agree the terms like Chasseur should not get translated, but some explanation by way of a note might be useful. I'm familiar with the foreign initialisations, and I'm fine with that approach personally.
  • I'm done. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 07:39, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
  • CommentsSupport
    • No dab links [1] (no action req'd).
    • External links check out [2] (no action req'd).
    • Images have Alt Text [3] (no action req'd).
    • Images all seem to be PD / free and mostly seem to have the req'd information:
      • One issue: date on File:Leclerc-casque.jpg is listed as 2 November 2013 which doesn't seem right. Yes check.svg Done
    • Captions mostly look fine:
      • One issue: "Tokyo Bay, Japan. Surrender of Japanese aboard..." should this be "Surrender of the Japanese aboard..." Yes check.svg Done
    • No duplicate links (no action req'd)
    • The Citation Check Tool reveals no issues with reference consolidation (no action req'd)
    • The Earwig Tool reveal no issues with copyright violation or close paraphrasing [4] (no action req'd)
    • Use of abbrev "USA" - I think "US" is preferred but not sure. Yes check.svg Done
    • "Henri went on to serve with the RMT...", abbrev needs to be introduced.
      • Did this myself, pls revert if I got it wrong. Anotherclown (talk) 00:49, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
    • Looks fine otherwise. Anotherclown (talk) 10:40, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
      • Most of my points are minor but I think the image date might be an issue moving forward. Is anyone able to fix this? Anotherclown (talk) 00:49, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
        • Sorry I didn't check back sooner - all my points have now been addressed. Added my spt now. Anotherclown (talk) 00:20, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.