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Articles for Creation people at Wikimania[edit]

Who will be at Wikimania, and do we want to have an informal meetup? I will be around Wednesday through Sunday. Arthur goes shopping (talk) 11:28, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

... I guess not. It was good to meet User:Soni and User:RHaworth and a couple of other people involved in Articles for Creation though. Arthur goes shopping (talk) 08:44, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
@Arthur goes shopping: - I would have loved to have attended one of the events, but I had to commit to family stuff over the weekend, and that comes first, no exceptions. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:49, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 August 2014[edit]

2600:1000:B111:BB4:B98F:5812:7D00:2214 (talk) 18:33, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

No request made. Nothing to do here. Fiddle Faddle 18:49, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Script idea[edit]

We get quite a number of submissions from COI editors whose accounts are also violations of Wikipedia's WP:Username policy, would it be of value to include a script that would allow for a one-pulldown choice to notify people of good-faith violations with a template and/or allow reporting of more serious violations? --j⚛e deckertalk 15:25, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Isn't that what TW is for or do you have something more specific in mind? — {{U|Technical 13}} (etc) 15:37, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Joe, are you talking about an option (i.e. checkbox) to be added to the helper script that would add a COI username notice to the talk page of the submitter? I think that would make a lot of sense. APerson (talk!) 15:46, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Aperson, yes. But Technical 13 also has a good point, short of that, Twinkle can (I think!) aid here until/unless such a feature is added. --j⚛e deckertalk 15:49, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
in particular, it appears to me that {{Uw-coi-username}} would be the first and most valuable addition for a one-button push. --j⚛e deckertalk 15:56, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Joe Decker Beware the Jabberwock my son, the editors that snipe, the shortsightedness that causes future problems. I recently proposed at VPI that we fork the coi-username template to split the non-corp names (which I got scolded for) from the CORP which is what coi-username is aparently only to be used for. Please feel free to apply some cluebat to those editors who think coi-username is only for CORP editors. Hasteur (talk) 17:25, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Oh dear. I'll go argue something safer, like .... (oh, I was going to snark here, but pretty much anything at WP:HOWMANYANGELS would work.) --j⚛e deckertalk 17:33, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Can we use the Talk page on a Draft article?[edit]

Can we use the Talk page on a Draft article for discussions with the editor? It would be a convenient page to record discussions of content. Will using the talk page interfere with the scripts when the article is accepted? StarryGrandma (talk) 19:09, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

I am using the AFC Rewrite script, and it will move the talk page along with the article page when the acceptance happens. This should cause no problems for regular reviewers, but admins who are answering requests to overwrite an existing article name will have to check to make sure that no important discussion is being overwritten. My take on this is that review comments which are to be deleted when the article is accepted should be added to the submission page, but anything that should be kept (for example, links to references that could be added, suggestions for expansion in the future, comments from people who want to help with the article, etc.) should go on the talk page. —Anne Delong (talk) 20:17, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. I agree that review comments should stay on the Draft page. I would like to keep the discussion of content for the article Draft:Janice (Jan) Richmond Lourie with the article. She is a very interesting artist and early computer science person. I don't want to accept the article until I've managed to rewrite some sections, but I need her help. StarryGrandma (talk) 21:06, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Feature request Comment Suggestion[edit]

Would it be possible to change the script so that the reviewing boxes are a bit smaller? I mostly use the cleaning tool for right now, and find that I have to use the "arrow" key to access that portion of the script. My thought was is that if the main reviewer options were a bit smaller then all the options could fit on one screen and "scrolling" would not be needed.   ArcAngel   (talk) ) 03:37, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

ArcAngel, I'm not sure about Theopolisme's reasoning, but I guess the reason we put the cleaning tool in a secondary location was that less people used it. Therefore, per Fitt's law, the three primary buttons are what we guessed were the three most common actions. If we get feedback that the cleaning tool is used about as frequently as the three primary buttons (or that it's used more frequently than the "Comment" tool, which is my personal experience), we can swap it out or add it to the "primary" view. APerson (talk!) 21:02, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Hrmm... I could see a change here. Some of us never use "comment"... What if it was [ Accept | Decline | User | < ] where User is whatever the user defines as the third option in the settings panel and < is still a way to access the other options? I think this could be fairly easily done, although, I don't really have the time to personally do it right now. If it was what the project members wanted, I'm sure something could be done. — {{U|Technical 13}} (etc) 19:36, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

David Milton McGowan[edit]

I see my name with a bio and it has been held for verification. Why not check with the subject ... that would be me. What information I can see looks to be accurate and some can be verified with others such as Katherine (Kate) McGowan and Glen McGowan (cousins) of the Thornbury, ON area, Robert McGowan (brother) of Ft. St. John, Tracy Wandling (step-daughter) of Comox, BC ... or ask. Dave McGowan — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:57, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Dear IP editor, the thing is, no-one has any idea who is editing form, so any checking is fruitless. Even then WIkipedia is unable to accept verification from the gentleman Dave McGowan (even in the flesh) because it requires verification in WP:RS, and, while we will believe and trust D McG, we cannot accept first party material. WHile this may seem bizarre, we are an encyclopaedia, and cannot work to press standards. Fiddle Faddle 17:01, 10 August 2014 (UTC)


This is a new user who has just reviewed and accepted more than one article, apparently using the helper script. I have left a message for Bulletrajabc on their talk page asking them to stop. I cannot see them in the list of participants or I would remove them. I will be notifiying them of the discussion here. Fiddle Faddle 18:33, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Given that information, the articles this editor created need to be moved to draftspace so the AfC team can review them.   ArcAngel   (talk) ) 18:37, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
The pages that this editor have "reviewed and accepted" have been moved back to draftspace.   ArcAngel   (talk) ) 18:46, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
This is a further indication of the need to protect the Participants page. Fiddle Faddle 19:22, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Or perhaps a "Request to join the AfC review team" process, whereby applicants are screened by establish editors to see if they meet the criteria for participation in this project.   ArcAngel   (talk) ) 19:26, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
  • That would only work if the participants page was protected and enforced by the script... — {{U|Technical 13}} (etc) 19:38, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
So why isn't the list protected and enforced? I thought the script had been restricted to the participants page months ago. Chris Troutman (talk) 20:09, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Apparently not. I am about to report him to ANI because he has once again moved Praneet sah back to mainspace acting as an AfC participant, so I believe it is an SPA attempting to get this non-notable person (perhaps himself) on Wikipedia.   ArcAngel   (talk) ) 01:24, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Preventing editors who don't meet the AfC criteria from "abusing" the project?[edit]

Bulletrajabc has proven just how "vulnerable" the project really is to editors "abusing" the project. Even though that editor has neither the service time (6 days), nor the required number of edits (30), he still reviewed, accepted, and moved an AfC submission into mainspace (even though it was declined by an AfC participant).

It was really frustrating to see a new editor just come in and "flaunt" his ability to do that, when in Wikireality he should not have been able to. Not only that, but he attempted to put a reviewer userbox on his userpage (which I removed when I noticed it as he doesn't have that privilege), as well as having the ACFH helper script.

I think it would be easy to code the helper script to "block" those that aren't in the participants list from using it, but how do we stop others who are not in the participants list from accepting submissions (especially if they are still sub-par)? Of course I feel that admins and above should be/are immune to that restriction.

I'd like to get some thoughts from the project members as to what they think about this, and what can be done to prevent it from occurring again?   ArcAngel   (talk) ) 05:46, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

  • Protect the list of participants and have new reviewers apply and be approved. Despite having been removed form the list Bulletrajabc was able earlier today to use the review helper script to re-approve an article. I imagine there is some caching issue that allows this, but it is perplexing that a removal from the list of participants is not active at once. Fiddle Faddle 06:27, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
Timtrent - see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive849#User Technmaticity approving articles apparently w/o reviewer rights. This was the previous incarnation of this sock, who did exactly the same thing (and even that was not the first time...). Understanding that "reviewer right" was a bit of a red herring initially in that discussion, it appeared to me that this user was using the script without ever being on the list (unless I was mistaken). I asked the question there, back then, how this was possible. If the whitelist does work properly, and the user was not in it, perhaps the "official" script was not used? Begoontalk 22:09, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
I was able to use the "gadget" script when my name was briefly removed (by mistake) earlier today, though I did get an error message, but the script was still functional.   ArcAngel   (talk) ) 22:15, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
Anyways... Maybe it will finally happen after months of me saying it should happen... — {{U|Technical 13}} (etc) 14:27, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm not entirely sure what all the fuss is about. Autoconfirmed editors are welcome to create articles directly in mainspace. If someone accepts their own article they do so at their own peril. If an editor works at AfC and their experience isn't up to parr, they can be given advice or ultimately prevented from working here. Is this such a common problem to warrant spending all this time creating additional barriers to working here? Sionk (talk) 22:17, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
The user in question did not just accept their own article - in this and at least one previous "incarnation" (Technmaticity) they accepted other articles too, presumably thinking this would mask their intentions (see:this SPI for more). At that point you potentially have other new editors informed their article has been accepted, and created. Subsequently the review and acceptance might need to be reverted, and the article removed from mainspace again - not a very good or professional experience for the good faith new editor innocently affected, when they have submitted their new article for review by experienced editors, as we encourage them to do. Begoontalk 22:28, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
It seems clear that the users in question acted in a manner that deliberately disrupted Wikiepdia. That's where the fuss comes from. I haven't checked, but I hope both (above and below) are now blocked for disruption. Along with any socks. If not, they should be. Bellerophon talk to me 22:12, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Now this is getting out of hand![edit]

Apparently the word is out that editors who don't meet the criteria for being on the participants list can freely use the helper script - think of it as "open season on Wikipedia". Gnuuu is currently "going crazy" with it, along with moving pages around and causing "general mayhem" on the project.   ArcAngel   (talk) ) 08:20, 14 August 2014 (UTC)


Per the recent stream of socks, I would like to propose a few solutions. The main 2 we have are either protecting the reviewer page furthur (ie. PC2 or full protection, as was implimented at first), or by creating an edit filter to detect users using the script without the experience needed. Any comments are welcome. --Mdann52talk to me! 10:07, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

How about PC2 with the edit filter?   ArcAngel   (talk) ) 15:02, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
These are not mutally exclusive, and could work well together. I am meerly proposing these to gauge consensus for the two ideas. --Mdann52talk to me! 15:10, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure there is a suitable protection level available to us. PC2 is unavailable on English Wikipedia due to a lack of consensus. The only other options are full protection, which would lock out far too many legitimate reviewers, template edit protection - likewise and semi-protection, which would probably not be enough. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:14, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) PC2 can't be used until there is a community wide acceptance to implement it, and I'm not convinced PC1 would be sufficient. Full protection is putting in a tack with a sledgehammer. Padlock-pink.svg Template editor (which I'm not part of) is the best available level. I also support an EF or revisions to the script itself to check minimum qualifications are met. If there was a reason for using the script without the minimum edit count or what not (ie sock account), then the checking for min edit count could be bypassed if the user had a specific user group (ie Reviewer). — {{U|Technical 13}} (etc) 15:22, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
  • My reading of the PC2 discussion is when there is a consensus to impliment it, per WP:IAR it can be used. There is a consensus to use it; Just no criteria as of yet. This (IMO) would be a good way to use it. However, an EF that checks a user has 500 edits when they use the script (maybe by picking up features in the es) would be a better solution IMO. --Mdann52talk to me! 15:26, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
    • To clarify. There was an RFC consensus to implement PC2 if a set of criteria existed first. There was then an RFC that determined a set of criteria but in the process of doing so overturned the consensus to use PC2 at all. Therefor, there is not consensus to use PC2 at all on the English Wikipedia at this time. — {{U|Technical 13}} (etc) 00:42, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) I'd support using PC2 but it's not yet been implemented. In lieu of that I'd say the list needs full protection. New reviewers can afford to wait and it prevent further misuse. Chris Troutman (talk) 15:27, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
Full protection would work if there was a "requests" page, that admins checked and updated appropriately. I think my concern is we need to attract more experienced reviewers, and avoid putting any obstacles in their way if we possibly can. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:33, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
That would work, but why should only admins approve the requests? I feel than anyone on the participants list (they could be a "moderator") should also be able to "approve" new requests as one can easily check and see if the requirements are met.   ArcAngel   (talk) ) 16:55, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
If a non-admin decides the requirements are met, how would they add the name to a fully protected page? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 17:06, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
Damn, you just outed me as having a brain fart! Face-smile.svg   ArcAngel   (talk) ) 17:13, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Just throwing it out there that if you wanted to use PC2 narrowly construed for this purpose, you could probably get approval to do so at WP:AN or a similar venue if you clearly explained the situation. I, for one, would definitely support :-) Go Phightins! 15:30, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
So who wants to get the ball rolling on that?   ArcAngel   (talk) ) 16:55, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
I'd recommend against PC2, not because I'm against PC2 on some philosophical grounds, but because I feel that Pending Changes is a poor mechanism for protection when the difference between what is and isn't a good change isn't going to be obvious to a reviewer without much context in the particular page being protected. I think you'll just get good faith "accepts" of additions of editors who don't belong here if we go PC2. *shrug* Maybe I'm just pessimistic, but, frustrating as it is, FP and a request board might be the thing. I don't feel strongly about it, and we definitely need to do SOMETHING, just ... humph. --j⚛e deckertalk 17:15, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
@Joe Decker: what do you feel about using an Edit filter to block any edits with AFCH if the user has under 500 edits (or whatever the rule is)? --Mdann52talk to me! 17:22, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
I haven't mucked with EFs, but if it's technically possible, it sounds like an awesome solution or partial solution. --j⚛e deckertalk 17:24, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
I have semied the page for now. This seemed like the best (if imperfect) solution until we work out what we want to do. If anyone disagrees with me, feel free to ask any admin to change it back to unprotected.
Yaris678 (talk) 17:52, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
Thumbs up on that. --j⚛e deckertalk 17:59, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
I agree that strictly from a technical perspective, leaving aside any issues of whether or not pending changes, level 2 is approved for use, I suspect most pending changes reviewers won't know what criteria to use to accept an edit to the AfC reviewer list. Thus as things currently stand, with the current set of editors with permission to review pending changes, I'm not sure that using PC2 would achieve the desired goals. isaacl (talk) 19:32, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Edit filter[edit]

Okay, I've looked through the edit filter documentation, and it's certainly technically feasible, and there seems to be some level of interest above. The correct predicates (e.g., user_editcount) are in the tools already, and relatively efficient (the test on the single matching URL should not significantly load the servers.) There's a clear sense already that some protection is necessary.

Shall we implement an edit filter that blocks changes to the AfC reviewer participant list page if the editor making the change has an edit count of less than 500?

This proposal is without prejudice to the use of other overlapping protection tools (semi-protect, pending changes, etc.).

If this proposal reaches consensus, I or another editor will follow up either with an implementation or a requested implementation at the edit filter request list. --j⚛e deckertalk 18:48, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Note: Apologies to Mdann52, who was the original proposer of this (IMHO, excellent) idea. --j⚛e deckertalk 16:34, 15 August 2014 (UTC)


  1. As proposer. --j⚛e deckertalk 18:48, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
  2. Strong support of this excellent proposal.   ArcAngel   (talk) ) 18:55, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
  3. 'Technically' this is a cleaner solution than PC2, and seems to solve the purported caching issue. It's worth a trial at the very least. Bellerophon talk to me 22:07, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
  4. As origional proposer above :P --Mdann52talk to me! 05:54, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
  5. Very needed. Chris Troutman (talk) 17:04, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
  6. This is a short and sweet technical enforcement of the participation requirements. Why not give it a shot? Mz7 (talk) 17:31, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
  7. Support; though it needs to be clarified, if the filter will support it, that the edit count is for mainspace only? BethNaught (talk) 18:37, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
    • Yes, 500 mainspace edits is the technical requirement.   ArcAngel   (talk) ) 18:43, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
  8. Support: This makes sense as a way to solve the issue at hand. Reventtalk 09:50, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


  1. Oppose simply on the grounds that there is no way to legitimately circumvent an EF for an editor that has more than sufficient experience and the qualifications met if they want to use a 'public' or alternate account. If you can find a way to allow that through the edit filter, I would change to support. — {{U|Technical 13}} (etc) 01:40, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
    I think you might have misread the proposal here, so I might have a solution for your (completely reasonable) concern. This proposal only uses the EF to protect the participant list itself. I could, for example, place my own public-terminal account on the list using my regular account. Or, if I got caught not having done that, I could almost certainly email/phone/facebook msg a trusted editor who knows me in real life to make the adjustment to the validated participant list, etc. --j⚛e deckertalk 02:30, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
    PS: I've clarified my text above. --j⚛e deckertalk 02:31, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Threaded discussion[edit]

Where do you actually request permission for access to the AFC helper script. I don't see it on this page.TucsonDavidU.S.A. 00:00, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

The participants tag, Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Participants People looking for exceptions could post here, I suppose, but we should probably make that clear. --j⚛e deckertalk 00:05, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Request for more eyes filed over at WT:EF#Filter request, however please make any further comments here to help keep discussion centralised. --Mdann52talk to me! 16:39, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Edit filter is a good solution to prevent new editors, but it doesn't solve the problem of editors new to AfC. PC2 (though controversial) would make the bar to reviewing higher. I support any protection available for the participants list, but I'd like to see this project tighten permissions even after edit filter is implemented. Chris Troutman (talk) 17:04, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
    Chris, my concern with PC2 here was the PC2 reviewers, in large part. I think PC in general works best when it is obvious to the casual PC reviewer, that is, the person who presses accept or reject, that there is a problem with a particular edit or not. We here at AfC are kind of a small part of the project, not everyone knows our concerns. On the other hand, reviewers who can accept PC2 pending changes are a pretty limited bunch, so it's entirely possible that I'm out to lunch. In either case, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this particular concern. Note: I wish there was a snippet of text associated with every pending changes protection that got displayed in front of the reviewer screen for every PC review. --j⚛e deckertalk 17:31, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
    @Joe Decker: I entirely agree with you. Personally I check every edit that I, as a reviewer, approve. I've run into other reviewers that have told me they approve any edit so long as it's not obvious vandalism. The latter case is the potential problem so I agree, it's not foolproof. I support the edit filter for that reason: that it prevents edits by users technically disallowed from being an AfC participant. 'Edit filter with PC2' would be better than one without the other.
    That non-AfC participant reviewers might approve edits to the participants list is a larger problem that I'm not sure how best to solve. I'm a proponent of WikiProjects husbanding issues within their span of control but I know other Wikipedians see that effort as fracturing the larger project. Interestingly, 'edit filter with PC2' doesn't solve the problem of Wikipedians like Zach Vega (already a reviewer) gaming the system. Implementation of PC2 will increase demand for reviewer userrights and some userrights don't seem to be too hard to get, depending on which admin you hassle for them.
    I also admit that I'm an advocate of PC2 and successful implementation on the participant list helps wider implementation across the project. Chris Troutman (talk) 17:58, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
    I'm actually a PC2 supporter as well, I've argued that there is a small but very useful window of utility for it for low-visibility BLPs which are badly vandalized, not frequently, over long periods of time by very dedicated detractors. The conductor whose wife keeps posting about his mistress, and the nightclub owner whose ex-employee has a grudge--both of these very real examples are people who are willing to go to the trouble, again and again, to create auto-confirmed accounts to push their agendas. Someday I'll convince people of this, but so far I've failed. I've got a multi-year year full protect on one of them right now, which is just stupid. --j⚛e deckertalk 18:06, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
    I still monitor the participants page, even though I'm no longer active at AfC (shame on me), so that's my justification for being here... That said, an edit filter is a very reasonable way of filtering unqualified participants, and provided the filter's warning template is appropriate, is probably less bitey than reverting as well. I still think PC2 is also suitable, despite being on the fence about it generally, and despite the problems above mentioned. BethNaught (talk) 18:37, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Protecting the page would not work unless the bug is fixed. --Glaisher (talk) 12:54, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
    I had presumed it would be. Was I mistaken? --j⚛e deckertalk 18:03, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Categorizing unreviewed articles[edit]

Back in May, User:Voceditenore proposed sorting AfC submissions by topic and by whether or not they had already been reviewed, in this discussion. Previously, User:Gigs made the same suggestion, and said that it could be accomplished with templates (here). These suggestions had support but were not implemented, as far as I can tell. User:InceptionBot already does topic sorting for drafts, but it would be great to have categories like:

We could do this manually, but then the categories would have be manually updated if you declined an unreviewed submission. Does anyone have any other ideas for how to implement this? --Cerebellum (talk) 19:32, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

  • Wouldn't a template create the entries in the specific categories automatically?   ArcAngel   (talk) ) 19:42, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
  • @ArcAngel: hmm... Not easily, no. We would have to inset an extra variable into the template to count how many other templates had been placed, which would mean rewriting a lot of the template and the scripts and bots that go thorough AfC. Additionally, some users submit articles multiple times, so counting the submission templates on the page are not the most reliable method of working this out. --Mdann52talk to me! 20:50, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Catch copyvio![edit]

In the last few days I've seen a couple of cases where easy-to-detect copyright violation had been overlooked by AFC revieweres, and editors were wasting time debating notability and/or searching for sources. Not all copyvio is easy to detect, but here's a case that is. If you're reviewing an article about some person or group, and if their web site is listed in the sources or external links, it should be automatic that you check it and if in doubt run it through Duplication Detector (setting the minimum number of words to 5, as the default of 2 will give too many false positives). This problem is so common that I'd honestly recommend making this check before doing any other reviewing -- you may save yourself and your colleagues a lot of work by sending such things to CSD with G12 (and G11 will often apply as well). --Stfg (talk) 19:54, 19 August 2014 (UTC)