Wikipedia talk:Banning policy

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content contributed by banned users on another WMF project?

I know that banned users are not allowed to edit Wikipedia, but what about importing their contributions from other Wikimedia projects? For example, if a user is banned here but is active on Commons, are we allowed to add his or her images to a Wikipedia article, or should we wait until the ban expires? Similarly, if a banned user has written a good article on another wiki, would it be acceptable to transwiki it here?

Thanks. --Ixfd64 (talk) 19:17, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

This section of the policy should answer your question. The upshot is, if you can verify and vouch for the content being added, you can add it. Nathan T 22:50, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
That's oversimplifying. Even if you can verify and vouch for it, you need an independent reason to add it. If a banned user starts creating articles in another wiki and you agree to simply copy those over here for him, that would be proxying and would result in a block.—Kww(talk) 00:41, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
I think the crucial point is whether or not you're editing explicitely at the request of the banned user. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  00:46, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
That's a bone of contention. I've always argued that people that go around restoring banned editors' edits after reversions are proxying. It may not be at the banned editor's request, but the net effect is that the editor is making the edit simply because the banned editor did so.—Kww(talk) 00:49, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
But disallowing otherwise constructive edits on the sole basis that the person making them has been banned ultimately is a net negative for the encyclopedia. I think that if another editor judges the contributions to be a positive for the project, he should be allowed to re-implement it. The wording of this policy is meant to enable swift enforcement in cases of meatpuppetry by banned users, not to ultimately prevent improvements to the encyclopedia. Its wording could do a better job of representing its spirit. (IMO) ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  00:55, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
There are very few edits that only the banned user can or will make. I've got no objection to a regular editor of an article looking over a reverted edit and blessing it. What I do have a problem with is people that see that a mass reversion has happened and intentionally going through each and every reversion and restoring them if they found them constructive.—Kww(talk) 01:17, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

@Kww: The "independent reason" bit pretty vague. If someone writes something on Wikisource, or Simple English, or somewhere else whilst banned here... My "independent reason" for copying to the English Wikipedia need be no more than that I think it usefully adds to this project as well. I doubt that would result in a block, and I imagine any admin imposing a block for that reason would find themselves at arbitration. I think your argument about restoring banned editors edits is not commonly held, and you're perfectly aware that blocks on that basis are usually not supported by the community. Salvidrim is correct, and I'd go further - mass reversion of edits made by a banned editor is a silly, deprecated practice unless the purpose of the ban is content related (i.e. persistent copyright violations, hoaxes, etc.). Anyone performing mass deletions for no other reason than that the content was added by a now-banned editor should be blocked. Nathan T 17:42, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

@Nathan: For the first time in some time, I find myself agreeing with Kww. I agree that blocks for restoring banned editors' edits are not usually forthcoming, but they can be appropriate if the restoration really is for no other reason than that the real editor (C) feels that B's reversion of (banned) A's edits is inappropriate, not that A's edit was appropriate. Anyone blocking someone for "performing mass deletions for no other reason than that the content was added by a then-banned editor" should be blocked. (If the ban occurs after the edits, that would be different.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:24, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
@Arthur Rubin: I think the distinction between someone restoring content because they think the content is appropriate and restoring it because the deletion was inappropriate is... a little bit of sophistry that can't form the basis of practical advice to editors or administrators. The bottom line is that banning an editor does not require the deletion of content they have created. Any deletion or restoration of content should be done based on an evaluation of the content itself. If someone wholesale deletes the product of a thousand edits for no reason other than that the contributor was later banned, then reversing that obviously wrong action is in no way "proxying" for the original contributor. If the restorer was blocked I would happily take the blocking admin to arbitration. Nathan T 20:50, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Hold up, since when are bans retroactive? I don't recall bans affecting past contributions. Only ones after the ban. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  21:19, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
It has certainly happened before that someone has been banned, and someone else over-zealously goes back and deletes a large amount of content. Restoring the reverted edits of a sockpuppet is something that falls under the sockpuppet policy, really, so for the purposes of this policy we're dealing with deleting/restoring edits from before an editor was banned, importing content from another project of an editor banned here, or otherwise acting as a go-between for someone who is not editing directly on this project. The canonical case of post-ban content deleting/restoring is Peter_damian, but that's sort of a hard case / bad law situation imo. Nathan T 21:35, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
To be clear, I'm only discussing edits made in violation of a ban in force at the time of the edit, either through IP-based block evasion, sockpuppet accounts, or violation of a topic-ban by an editor that still has general editing privileges.—Kww(talk) 21:38, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Ah, the original question and reply you commented on were specifically referring to users who were banned from editing Wikipedia but still editing other projects, and whether it would be appropriate to import content from those other projects. To my mind that remained the predicate of the discussion. I still have a more nuanced view of reverting edits from users editing through a ban, though, I suppose. If some makes ten valuable edits in an area from which they are topic banned, I would support a block of the user and the retention of the content. That way we achieve the linked goals of enforcing behavioral norms and supporting quality content. That might be a little less mainstream of an opinion. Nathan T 21:46, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict)The only situation which I can think of where some may consider justified the blanket reversion of a long period of edits is when an account is newly discovered as a sock of a long-time banned user, where every edit since the ban has theoretically been made in violation of our banning policy; but even then, going back months or years to revert all their edits on the sole basis of our banning policy seems both harmful and like shitbureaucracy, so I don't think any reasonable user should go that far. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  21:48, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

can non-admins impose community bans?

{{RfC}}

A few things are clear from this discussion. A fair number of non-admins are able to assess the consensus, and sometimes can close it better. Admins !> editors by any means. That being said, I think Seraphimblade (talk · contribs) clearly outlines the issue that most of the opposes strike around


Furthermore, the community previously held this to administrators only because of the delicate nature of the grey zones, and still holds it through the result of this RfC. There are also some 'in theory supports' in this RfC, which I can't count as positive towards allowing non-admins as the reality, and the implications of this are widespread, and can affect individual editors in a very serious way. At this time, there is no consensus to allow non-admins to close ban discussions. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 00:41, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Recently, I closed this AN/I discussion per WP:NAC, with a clear consensus to impose a cban from moving pages. However, the edit was reverted by John, saying that the wording used in WP:CBAN (closing administrator) meant that a non-admin close was not allowed, however another user said that admins were only needed to enforce actions.

Therefore, I wanted to clarify the community's current viewpoint. Can:

  1. any editor in good standing close a discussion with clear consensus at the relevant venue, and impose a CBAN per WP:NAC.
  2. Only administrators can close discussions and impose CBAN's.

--Mdann52talk to me! 20:37, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Please identify where the words "(closing administrator)" appear.  Unscintillating (talk) 22:31, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
@Unscintillating: in the last sentence of the WP:CBAN section and "uninvolved administrator" appears in the second last paragraph in that section. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 06:15, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Support (non-admins can impose CBAN's)

  • The closer is not imposing anything, merely documenting the existing consensus. Furthermore, unless a tool needs to be used directly and immediately, it should not require an admin. If language exists in the documentation implying or stating that an admin is needed to do it, it shouldn't. Admins only have extra tools, and if an action doesn't directly and immediately require the use of those tools, then anyone in good standing should be able to do it. --Jayron32 05:13, 15 July 2014
  • Summarizing consensus is something an admin absolutely should be able to do, but an experienced editor may be just good at it. So long as the summary is accurate, I don't see a reason why a non-admin shouldn't close a RfC, AN/I thread, etc. other than the controversy it may cause.--I dream of horses (T) @ 03:46, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support - The closer is merely documenting consensus, any non-admin in good standing should be able to do that. Kosh Vorlon    12:33, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support for topic bans, interaction bans, etc., but not site bans (since they need an admin tool to implement). If no admin tools are required for an action, there's no reason we should limit it to admins. After all, they're just regular editors trusted with a few extra buttons. Jackmcbarn (talk) 20:49, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Qualified Support As Kudpung correctly states below "an outcome that requires an admin tool use should only be closed by an admin." However, many, topic and interaction bans (such as the impetus for this discussion) do not require the immediate use of the block button. As the sysop bit is a technical not a social privilege I reject the 'expediency of the moment' argument that Newyorkbrad puts forth; we should be encouraging NAC's that are well reasoned and reflect consensus. Additionally, the 'super-user' argument that Risker puts forth appears to be in direct conflict with the lead of WP:ADMIN: "...are Wikipedia editors who have been granted the technical ability to perform certain special actions...". Any editor in good standing has the right to close a discussion, provided they have the tools to implement the decision (as appears to be the case here, unless sysops can now 'move restrict' editors??). Regards, Crazynas t 02:44, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support any editor in good standing to close any debate that they have the tools to finish. Chillum 03:19, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support to a point. It does not require tools to enact a ban and closing obvious ban discussions and filing the other paperwork is fine. The problem is when the outcome isn't very obvious. In those cases an admin should close, not because we are smarter (we aren't) but because the community has selected us specifically to deal with contentious situations, and in those situations, the tools may be needed. To me, it is much like AFD in that respect, where we ask non-admin to stay outside the boundaries of contention. So yes, with reasonable limits based on good judgement. Farmer Brown (alt of Dennis Brown) 21:40, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support, along the same lines as an AFD. Non-admins are people too! My decision shouldn't hold any more weight (and sometimes should hold less weight) than a decision by a competent non-admin who's assessing consensus properly. We require admin closes for "delete" at AFD because non-admins can't enforce such a decision, but a ban closure doesn't require any permissions beyond edit as long as no block is part of the ban. In other words, require admin for a "siteban=yes" decision, but don't require admin for "siteban=no", "topicban=yes", "topicban=no", etc. A non-admin close most definitely should be reviewable, but on the same terms as a close that I perform. Nyttend (talk) 00:18, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support  Follow-up discussions with a non-admin may in some cases be less confrontational.  We also have former admins experienced in closes.  Unscintillating (talk) 01:56, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support. The task is simple: anyone can assess the discussion and determine whether a consensus has been reached. It does not take an admin to spy out consensus. Binksternet (talk) 02:18, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Qualified Support I am fundamentally opposed to the concept that admins are more capable of making sound judgement than other established and respected users. I was going to oppose this on the grounds that there should not be an attempt to ban a user when enforcement of that ban can't be made, but User:Crazynas won me over with the argument that there are cases where a block will not be necessary. It may not be common, but it does happen, and in the cases where it's fairly obvious the user is likely going to abide by the ban, then why not have a non-admin impose it? (In reality, THAT'S where the sound decision-making is going to be tough; not the part where obvious consensus is identified.) --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 05:48, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Strongest possible support. The implication that non-admins are inferior to admins really stinks. The only time only an admin may close is in the case that only an admin may implement the decision, but even in the case of full community sitebans, you don't need a block for that. Cheers and Thanks, L235-Talk Ping when replying 21:03, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
While I agree that admins are in no way superior to other users, I am not aware of any user, ever, being subject to a full siteban without a block. Once a person has reached the point of actually being banned, it isn't reasonable to assume they will simply accept the decision and not edit anymore, they are always blocked as a technical means of enforcing the consensus to ban. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:07, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Oppose (only admins can impose CBAN's)

  • I'll weakly support this position, and I agree with Johnuniq that this is a bit too close to the incipient event to draw any real conclusion for policy. I'm not against non-admins closing discussions in general but the community internal differentiation between a block (which can technically only be imposed by admins) and a ban (which is either enforced via a block or via social action) is not one which is widely understood. In practice, this means that even if we change the wording of the policy to explicitly allow non-admins we'll still see a repeat of what happened with Mdann52. An editor will see a discussion which has basically run its course--in this specific case I imposed the ban a few hours after Mdann52--at which point the "banned" editor will likely complain that the ban is illegitimate. Now instead of the discussion being closed it turns to bikeshedding over who can impose bans. I've seen this happen a dozen times or so and the outcome is rarely (if ever) beneficial. Protonk (talk) 15:04, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The non-admin doesn't have the technical ability to enforce this. It's a hollow threat by a non-administrator. They would then have to find an admin to do a block if it is violated at which point the administrator should have closed the discussion anyways or is making the decision about the ban. This isn't like an article deletion discussion where it can be reversed at DRV or something, this is an actual person being restricted from editing (or being threatened at least) and the consequences should not be taken lightly. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:20, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose in practice (but support in theory): I believe the community ought to be able to decide community bans without the input or agreement of admins, but the potential for drama is far too high in the case of a community ban which is imposed by the community but which can find no admin willing to enforce it through blocking the banned editor when they violate it. Requiring admin closing shows that there is at least one admin who believes that there is a clear consensus and that the ban is for sufficiently good reason. While I don't much care for that limitation on the authority of the community, the other possibility for disruption is worse. Any closing either in favor of or against the ban should be appealable to ARBCOM, but ARBCOM's authority should be limited to review of the closing admin's consensus evaluation, and should not allow ARBCOM to substitute its judgment for the community's (even if the matter could have been brought to ARBCOM rather than the community in the first place). Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 21:29, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Regretful oppose: I'm sorry, but I see this as analogous to allowing a non-admin to NAC an AfD and choose delete; assessing the consensus doesn't require the bit, but enforcing it does. And for better or worse, we've not allowed that. TransporterMan is right on the money: the drama risked outweighs the reward, even though that reward is not trivial. —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 12:33, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Whilst the decision to ban an editor is the community's I believe that the assessment of that decision should be left to an administrator who have both the power and authority to enforce the ban as well as having been selected with their ability to assess consensus in mind. A decision which prevents a user from editing in a certain way should always come from an administrator as is currently reflected in WP:CBAN. An analogy to AFD would be a consensus to redirect and full protect, whilst a non-admin would be able to redirect they would need to ask an admin to protect. That admin would need to review the deletion discussion before they used their protect button. As the decision required the use of admin tools the non-admin shouldn't have closed it. Likewise in this sense, while writing a close statement, putting it on the subject's talk page and completing WP:EDR doesn't require admin buttons any enforcement of the ban does. I would have no problem and would encourage non-admins to suggest a close statement if they wished to do so. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 06:29, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Blocks and bans are in the domain of administrators; it is one of the key issues on which the granting of administrator tools is assessed and granted or not granted, and it is the most restrictive action that administrators can perform. Administrators are expected to personally assess the consensus in any discussion that leads to the use of their tools, and they are held personally responsible for any actions they take as a result of their assessment. I do not support in any way non-administrators assessing consensus on matters of community bans; that's pretty much the definition of something that one requires demonstrated confirmation of community trust (i.e., a successful RFA) to carry out. Risker (talk) 21:40, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I agree with most of the comments above. In addition, non-administrator closures are generally best avoided when the outcome of a discussion is likely to be controversial. A sanctions discussion closing with the result of a community ban or topic-ban discussion is inherently controversial, in that at least the sanctioned party will typically be strongly opposed to the sanction. Having a non-administrator closing in such circumstances is often snatched upon by the sanctioned party as a basis for challenging the outcome, and it's best to avoid such a result. And, typically and hopefully, there will only be a small handful of such user-conduct/proposed-sanction discussions pending on AN/ANI at a time, so the virtues of NACs in other contexts, including backlog-prevention and skill-building for future admins, are less applicable than in venues such as XfD. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:02, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • While the community can impose a community ban, the onus is on the closing administrator to determine the consensus and enact the ban (if necessary). I don't feel comfortable with allowing a non-admin the ability to close a community ban discussion and then seek out an admin who would have to serve as a proxy. Also, non-admin closures have primarily been used to assist in the reduction of backlogs in clear-cut scenerios (e.g. closing as keep in AfD). Community bans occur on AN or ANI where there is rarely a shortage of admins to close the discussion. Mike VTalk 01:22, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose for the same reason that non-admins may not close an AfD as "delete"—in reality, they cannot enforce that decision, and so an admin's judgment is ultimately needed anyway. If the admin then says "No, I don't agree the ban was valid" after the "banned" editor commits a violation and a block is requested, a very messy situation will result. It will ultimately reduce drama to have an admin impose the restriction in the first place, and that will leave no doubt that there will be if the need arises someone willing and able to enforce the restriction with a block. Also, restricting an editor's editing privileges is a serious decision, and is one that's best left to someone who has been through community vetting. The notes above on low volume are applicable as well, and rarely will community bans end in as clean and easy to determine a consensus as a near-unanimous "Keep" AfD. Most editors who misbehave that badly are just indefinitely blocked and no one cares to argue; ban discussions are often much more acrimonious and hard to tease meaning out of. None of the above is to disparage the editor who did close the discussion in question though, as they were clearly acting in good faith. Normally non-admin closes by experienced editors are perfectly acceptable, but where admin tools are required to effect the result of the discussion, best that an admin close it. Seraphimblade Talk to me 03:51, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Only users who can block other users (currently admins) should be allowed to impose block-punishable restrictions on them. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 11:02, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Newyorkbrad. Non-controversial (or uncontested) community ban proposals are unlikely. Just like AFDs, non-admins should restrict themselves to closing obvious consensus cases where arguments don't really need to be weighed in detail. I also have concerns about allowing/encouraging non-admins to implement community decisions they can't enforce. Stlwart111 11:24, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose- Banning an editor is something that only admins should do, because they are the only ones who can enforce the ban with a block. I also think it would be a bad idea for just anyone to be allowed to topic ban people. Reyk YO! 11:46, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - "the community" could be one individual, six of his friends, and the non-admin closer friend of his. At least Admins have something important to lose if they engage in questionable cbans. Plus various arguments above. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 12:36, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
It stopped being no big deal a looooooong time ago. Even the content you linked to says as much. Beeblebrox (talk) 07:45, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
I agree, and that was a tongue-in-cheek response to "at least Admins have something important to lose". I'm not saying that the standards (for RFA) should be lowered to what they were in 2003, just that losing the bit shouldn't be that much of a loss. Put another way, I agree that the responsibility is greater now than it was, but that doesn't mean that the prestige should be. Crazynas t 21:51, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Despite not being an admin, I've never been particularly comfortable with non-admin closures in most contexts. Content RfC's are about the only area where I think that is easily appropriate. Part of the problem is the downstream effects - controversies like this one, for instance, or eventual conflicts over the validity of whatever outcome emits from the closure. Another part is the attitude of the folks who sometimes perform non-admin closures (not saying that is necessarily the case here). Perhaps my view is colored by the discussion and participants when the idea of non-admin closures was hatched, but even so... Count me as an oppose. Nathan T 17:33, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose the risk of misuse is too big, creating far more drama and trouble to solve. The Banner talk 19:48, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Mendaliv Zell Faze (talk) 00:08, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. We can't really trust people other than admins to make CBANs. It would be kinda, well, a disaster. EMachine03 (talk) 00:21, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
    • Actually, allowing admin to make cbans would be a disaster. We are talking about judging consensus, not making a unilateral call. The community is still who decides. Dennis Brown |  | WER 00:54, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose: I don't think that there is really so great a backlog of Banning discussions as for this to be justified. It Is Me Here t / c 21:15, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
    • The implication here is that a backlog would be the only reason to allow editors to 'help out'. Put it another way: generally the onus is on those that want to remove a right to justify why the larger group cannot exercise that right, not the other way around. Crazynas t 15:08, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Some "equality shouts" bring me here... obviously banning is part of Wiki technical administration which affects an editor's editing ability, and sometimes it needs to be backed up by a block. Therefore only very trusted users (i.e. admins) should have the right to enforce bans. Per others above, "consensus" can be built by less than 10 editors (and in a case, 11 editors decided to demote a guideline). If non-admin closure for banning decision is allowed, there would be more troubles like "canvassed" closers allegations, which only add more burden on admins and ANI drama (aren't we having enough to watch?).Forbidden User (talk) 17:30, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

comments

  • What on earth does "about admins can impose CBAN's" mean? Should "about" be "only" there, perhaps? Tarc (talk) 23:32, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
  • This should be withdrawn or closed. There was a recent issue, but apart from that I don't recall any discussion or controversy, and in general an RfC should follow after an initial discussion to determine whether there is any point to the RfC. The "wording" point refers to the fact that WP:CBAN says "When determining consensus, the closing administrator will..." which carries the strong suggestion that an admin will apply the ban. That makes a great deal of sense because if no admin feels like closing a discussion, any violations of a ban would be hard to address—after an admin close, the admin's talk can be used to ask whether some diff is a violation, and even if the admin is temporarily unavailable, there are often other admins who will notice such a request and who may act. Johnuniq (talk) 01:18, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia:Administrators, a policy, is pertinent. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:23, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Shut this down. No problem exists, no need for this RFC. This distracts from real issues. Carrite (talk) 16:26, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I don't believe this violates the RFC guidelines. Unlike most other dispute resolution processes, RFC only — at least in its current incarnation — recommends discussion before filing an RFC, but does not require it. When used for policy modification/formation WP:PROPOSAL says to use RFC and doesn't mention prior discussion at all. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 21:04, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Given that there has been recent confusion over this and considering that the increase in non-admins being allowed and encouraged to close various discussions has made "closing administrator" in WP:CBAN arcane I think we should take this opportunity to clarify whether bans discussions can be closed by non-admins. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 06:19, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
  • While uncontroversial and clear consensus can be closed in most discussions by non-admins in good standing, I have always (rightly or wrongly) understood that an outcome that requires an admin tool use should only be closed by an admin. Worse - as a totally uninvolved admin I have once closed a debate in which the consensus was clearly for a ban, and I came out heavily criticised by another admin for having done so. In that instance however, it turned out that that admin had a COI in the issue. Thus I contend that where even we admins can get caught in the cross-fire, it would seem appropriate to restrict NAC to only clear-cut consensus where no admin tool use is required. That said, the text of WP:CBAN appears to assume anyway that the close would be made by an admin, but let's not confuse ban with block - only the blocking part actually requires use of the block tool; therein lies the ambiguity. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:40, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I've changed "Support #2" to "Oppose" since a) the users adding content there are all calling it "Oppose" and b) in my opinion, it's less confusing. APerson (talk!) 20:13, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • This is a silly debate about a minor issue with an exceedingly obvious solution: Yes, non admins can close a discussion regarding a ban. No, they cannot impose said ban because they lackk the technical ability to issue a block in order to enact the ban.
So, non-admin closes a discussion. Then they have to ask an admin to do the technical end of it. No responsible admin is going to do that without going over the discssion themselves and making sure the consensus favors a a ban. So nothing is accomplished by the non-admin close, but nothing is really hurt by it either, assuming the closer doesn't mind wasting their own time. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:58, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Beeblebrox, that may be true regarding site bans, but the discussion here also pertains to topic-bans or similar sanctions (that disputed close that led to the RfC involved a "community ban from moving pages"). Plus, what about community ban discussions where the user is already indef-blocked, so no "technical" implementation is required? Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:14, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
I have found myself over the years moving into the camp that believes that banning people who are already blocked is pointless, so my solution in that specific scenario is best summarized as "who cares?" In the other cases you mention I think the normal guidelines for NACs apply: if the outcome is obvious, go right ahead, if there is any doubt at all let an admin do it. If the user chooses not to respect the result just because a non-admin did the close, they will probably find themselves on the wrong end of actual admin authority soon enough. This only becomes an area of concern if a particular closer has a habit of making bad calls. That can be dealt with on an individual basis as needed. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:30, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Policy contradiction between WP:Preserve and WP:BAN

I've started a discussion on this issue at Wikipedia talk:Editing policy#Policy contradiction between WP:Preserve and WP:BAN -- Kendrick7talk 17:46, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Topic ban clarifications

See WP:ANI#Obviously conflicted edits to A2 milk, side conversation, my disclosure where I added A2 milk as a QPQ. I was a little concerned with how quickly User:Stalwart111 (who works regularly with COI editors) seemed to escalate an issue with User:BlackCab (a connected editor to A2 milk), starting with requesting enforcement of typical WP:COI editing restrictions for a first-time admitted paid editor due to reversion and probable promotion, and moving rapidly within 24 hours to a topic ban request that was immediately joined by editors who have favored tighter general restrictions at COI talk. This seems calm now and I am talking mostly productively with Stalwart, but I wonder if this policy is allowing sudden escalation because of its vagueness.

What is "proven to be repeatedly disruptive" in this case? It seems like if someone with 9,000 edits starts paid editing and tries to announce that and roll with it, but has a blind spot about promotion, this is not repeated disruption. My experience is that disruption is a parliamentary term related to dilatoriness and means something that actively prevents others from continuing their ordinary planned business. A moderator does not call out disruption on the first or second case of mere interruption because it is presumed others can ignore minor issues; it would not be "repeated" until after a formal warning indicating a pattern that is hard to regard in good faith, and it is not "proven" until the repetition after warning is put through some formal process, and in this case that process is not ANI because that conversation is supposed to take place after the pattern is already "proven". It doesn't seem like that's what those words mean here. This statement may need to be clarified and expanded so as not to suggest that in general any two edits you disagree with, plus an incomplete conversation about them, count as grounds for proposing or supporting a topic ban.

And what does it mean that AN is "preferred" to ANI? Practice seems to indicate the opposite.

I think we could also have a link about the "template to distinguish comments" because I don't know what I would use to indicate within the conversation that the first four editors to !vote on the ban nomination (one !vote was not bolded) have a history of being involved with COI editors, and that doesn't neatly fall into involved or uninvolved. Does the subject editor get to !vote (perhaps in agreement with the ban), or only to "respond"? And 24 hours (or 36, the archive time) is enough to make such a decision? The "editing restrictions" page is plenty long and, as an inclusionist, I'm also inclusive about editors, so I wonder if this ANI poorly represents the usual course intended by this policy. Frieda Beamy (talk) 20:06, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I think you need to familiarise yourself with the case more comprehensively. You've misinterpreted some things and misunderstood others and (as a result) the summary of the case presented above is neither accurate, nor a "problem" that requires solving. Stlwart111 00:20, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I thought we agree that we don't agree on all the details. Please feel free to correct the case history. The problem I expressed is that this page seems to need clarifications (or maybe pointers to clarifications in the archive) and I am just mentioning the case we were involved in as a starting illustration. Frieda Beamy (talk) 01:22, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • It was at ANI (rather than AN) because the original thread related to editor behaviour and a series of incidents. A plain topic-ban proposal (without the precursor discussion) would have been at AN.
  • The topic ban related to POV editing and edit-warring, not paid editing.
  • "Proven to be repeatedly disruptive" was the disruption itself, a lack of remorse for it and a commitment to continue. Sanctions are designed to be preventative rather than punitive and in this case the proposal aimed at preventing disruption. When BC committed to curtail the disruption and work collaboratively, the proposal was moot and was withdrawn.
  • It didn't "move rapidly" to a topic ban proposal; my intention was never to go in that direction at all. I proposed that after BC's responses and after pointy edit-warring had started, again, related to the edit warring and nothing at all to do with the fact that BC was a, "first-time admitted paid editor". And again, once there was a commitment to stop, the T-BAN proposal served no purpose.
  • Anyone who proposes a topic ban after, "any two edits you disagree with, plus an incomplete conversation about them" would (at a guess) be subject to sanctions themselves. That would be completely inadequate. Stlwart111 07:37, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Thank you! Refactoring. The questions are still there, and we also have a disagreement under discussion about WP:NOPAY. Frieda Beamy (talk) 17:00, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Editing this page

I'd just like to remind everyone that this page is a policy, not an essay. Nobody should be adding or removing anything other than typos without getting consensus for it beforehand. Unilaterally altering policy is never the right thing to do. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:17, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Since that message was apparently not read and/or understood I have protected the page. I sincerely hope my fellow admins will respect that they should not edit through the protection and will instead discuss these issues here instead of continuing to unilaterally modify policy without discussion. Beeblebrox (talk) 06:17, 20 August 2014 (UTC)