Wikipedia talk:Featured article criteria

Context provided by other articles

An issue came up while reviewing German cruiser Admiral Hipper for GA status. Although a good article need not give good perspective as to how the topic under discussion relates to similar topics, the FA criteria require "(b) comprehensive: it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context". Sometimes the ideal way to do that would be to refer to another Wikipedia article. For example, all the warships in a given class are usually quite similar, so the most efficient way to give perspective about that group of warships is to refer to the class article. For example, the featured article USS New Jersey (BB-62) refers to the good article Iowa class battleship, which gives considerable information about the design constraints and objectives.

But what if the article that one would like to refer to for context has not been written yet, or is of poor quality. Does that mean the information must be incorporated into the article that is being offered as an FA candidate? Or should we evaluate the candidate as if the articles it refers to are of good quality themselves. Jc3s5h (talk) 16:42, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

We have a featured article today, Don Valley Parkway, about a geographic feature, which mentions several specific places, and yet includes no coordinates. The inclusion of coordinates, using {{Coord}} (currently over 708,000 instances and growing, so indubitably popular throughout most of Wikipedia), allows users to locate the feature, and or points mentioned on a map or similar service of their choosing. While the issue of coordinates for articles about roads is hotly debated, and optional, it's certainly allowable, and done, with an example in WP:RJL. It's my contention that we shouldn't be featuring such articles without any coordinates. Criterion 1(b) "it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context" seems to support this. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 12:14, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

I see a big contradiction between "the issue of coordinates for articles about roads is hotly debated, and optional" and " we shouldn't be featuring such articles without any coordinates." This is an issue that could be brought up in a review; it won't require a change to the criteria. Karanacs (talk) 14:01, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't see how that's a contradiction; there are lots of optional things to include in, or exclude from, articles; which would cause them to fail to meet FA criteria. And I wasn't suggesting a change to the criteria; I was pointing out how current criteria support my contention. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 14:21, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

If there's no consensus within a project that certain content needs to be included (and a reviewer points that out with documentation), then delegates aren't likely to put a lot of weight to the argument that it MUST be included. You'd have better luck changing the project consensus. Karanacs (talk) 14:26, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

It's not for projects to override wider consensus, per WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 14:58, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

I personally don't think this is an issue that should be decided by FA reviewers. The other delegates may have differing opinions. Karanacs (talk) 16:22, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

As a reviewer, I'm distinctly reminded of the great Alt-text issue .. this seems like something that should not be micromanaged in the FA criteria. And it definitely needs more discussion as a general rule somewhere prominent so it can be seen by a large number of people who can then comment. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:25, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more with Karanacs. –Fredddie™ 20:20, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

This topic is currently being debated at WT:RJL. In my mind, it would be a very bad idea to mandate something at FAC that is currently being contested. --Rschen7754 20:03, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

In issues like this, FAs should follow the Manual of Style. If there is consensus at MOS that these coordinates must be included, then FAs must have them; I don't think it's a good idea to have the FA criteria talk about this quite specific issue. Ucucha (talk) 20:11, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

MOS:COORDS: The MOS talks about how the coords must be displayed, not what coords must be displayed. --Rschen7754 20:14, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

There is no discussion relating to FA status at WT:RJL. MOS:COORDS and WP:RJL both clearly indicate that coordinates may be included. FA-1b says that "no major facts or details" should be neglected. Together, I think it's quite clear that FAs on physical features should include at least one set of coordinates; more if appropriate. Remember: no article is required to reach FA status, but FA is supposed to raise the bar of article quality.Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 21:41, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

I beg your pardon; I overlooked this solitary reference to FA, on 21 August 2011: "Yeah, I agree that coordinates aren't a priority - they should be among the "finishing touches" of an A-class or a FA" Who said that? Rschen7754 did. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 23:28, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, if you take that out of context, I did. --Rschen7754 08:11, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

• User:Pigsonthewing has canvassed his pointy issues at practically every venue on the encyclopedia, touting the same arguments everytime (WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT), and disrupting the normally productive activities of at least half a dozen editors in order to bulldoze what he believes (apparently he=consensus, because there is supposedly consensus to use coordinates) is the only way into articles. Please do not continue to feed the trolls, and point Andy back to WT:RJL, where the very real and very clear CURRENT CONSENSUS is not to arbitrarily place coordinates on articles. This is why Andy wasn't bold, adding coords to the Don Valley Parkway. Instead, Andy is forum shopping. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 20:42, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

The FAC instructions are not going to micromanage which content is and is not included (and if that ever changes I'm targeting infoboxen, not coordinates, first). You are welcome to put forth your argument in individual FAC nominations where you think coordinates ought to be applied, and the nominator can then respond. As a delegate, I am not going to fail any article that does not include it. And yes, this strikes me very much as forumshopping. Karanacs (talk) 21:51, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Non-English content; robust markup

Two related issues:

I've just opposed a FAC on the grounds that included non-English place- and company-names, that weren't marked up with {{Lang}}.

This touches on the wider issue on checking that FACs uses the proper mark-up in other cases, such as quotations, lists and headings, rather than kludges.

If there is general agreement that such things should be checked, I'd be willing to help draft guidelines (or a checklist), based on existing MoS criteria, and suggest that we add a new criterion 2(d), to the effect that "Markup: is consistent, accessible and semantically meaningful".

Thoughts? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 12:01, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

The criteria state that articles should follow the MOS. Why do we need to get more specific than that? Karanacs (talk) 23:04, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

For full disclosure, the article in question is A1 (Croatia), a road article. --Rschen7754 02:36, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

That's not the only one; and irrelevant to the general point discussed. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 10:15, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

It's clear that FAs are being passed, without such issues being addressed. I'm proposing something to help reviewers make sure they are. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 10:15, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

This appears to already be covered by the criteria. We've had a long-standing dearth of reviewers who specifically look at MOS issues, so some of the more obscure MOS points can be overlooked. I don't think the answer is to make the criteria longer - it's to have reviewers look at the MOS more in-depth. Karanacs (talk) 13:33, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

OK. how do you prose that we do that? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 15:38, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

(reply to Karan) Or ... crazy idea... quite piling every little hobby horse of a style issue into the MOS. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:34, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

So, accessibility and semantic markup are "little hobby horses of style issues"? Thanks, I'll try to remember that. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 15:22, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Coordinates are part of "accessibility"? The lang template, I can see, but the coordinates seem to me to be a totally personal choice... they don't really fit into the "comprehensiveness" category, because quite honestly most folks won't have the gear to interpret the longitude and latitude figures... a good map should be enough to pinpoint a location enough to satisfy the 'comprehensive' concerns. And frankly, yes, there are way too many details in the MOS - and a lot of them boil down to things that I personally think should be left out so that we can concentrate on the important things - like accessibility issues. Instead, the important bits get buried under the increasing bits of minutiae that make it impossible to know what we need to be concentrating on. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:31, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Where, in this section, do I mention coordinates? Which of the things I have referred to are minutiae? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 15:38, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

I was replying to Karan's general point about MOS issues. I didn't specifically mention you, did I? Calm, calm... Im sorry I didn't make that perfectly clear - I shall do that now... May I suggest, however, that adding a specific criteria to the FAC things about markup IS minutiae, especially when the elements you are specifically mentioning in this section are already covered in the MOS - and every FAC needs to meet the MOS. I get that you want this checked for... the best method to do that is to ... review FACs. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:45, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

... but it's much easier of course to try and force others to do the work. This discussion reminds me somewhat of the editors who tag articles as needing X, Y or Z and then swiftly move on, leaving their tags in place for years in many cases because frankly nobody else gives a damn. Malleus Fatuorum 16:31, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Which bit of "I'd be willing to help…" in my original post in this section did you miss? Wikipedia is a collaborative project, is it not? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 17:05, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

I interpreted your "I'd be willing to help" comment as implying that you'd be willing to help place an extra burden on reviewers, not that you'd be willing to help with reviewing. But if I'm wrong then of course I apologise. Malleus Fatuorum 17:22, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

So far as the MoS is concerned I am firmly of the opinion that it's already too big and sprawling, and seriously wrong in certain places, therefore I'm most definitely not in favour of expanding it. For better or for worse, as far as FAC is concerned I would never oppose an article because it failed to conform to a MoS guideline I fundamentally disagreed with, no matter what the criteria say. Malleus Fatuorum 16:34, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ The easiest answer, Andy, would be to review articles for compliance with the minutiae of the MOS that aren't normally reviewed, and enter declarations on those points in the reviews. Compliance with the MOS is already required by the FA Criteria, so an additional point isn't really needed. Imzadi 1979 → 02:14, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Criteria 1c - exhausting reliable sources vs desired article structure

I didn't bring it to FAC but someone did try to renominate My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic again for FA, but it was closed, quickly and quite appropriately.

But the comments from that and the first FAC attempt have highlighted a problem that I see us having with criteria 1c. As a (the?) primary author of most of the article, and continued vestiment in it, I wholeheartedly believe we have exhausted the available sourcing for the show from reliable sources, and yet we are running into comments in the FAC that more reliable sourcing is needed.

That is: this is a kids show on Saturday mornings on a second-tier cable channel. It is not going to be attracting a lot of media attention (barring future changes, but I can't CRYSTAL what might happen to do that). The only reason we have so much is because of the internet following which has highlighted this specific show from the Saturday morning block there. To flesh out parts of the article that would be normally required for a TV show (like origin and production) we are forced to turn to the presently most notable fanblog and specifically interviews with the show runners that the blog performed. (I do note there are other sources in the article presently there that probably can be removed or the like).

So basically, in terms of 1C, we have exhausted what sources are available to us, and thus I can confidently state that the article does reflect what the sources say. But if we're demanded to use more reliable sources, we're stuck there, and/or we have to cut out information that is generally part of FAs for TV that otherwise we can't back by more reliable sources than the leading fanblog.

The case that we're in should not prevent the article from becoming FA - as long as we have used every possible RS to us, and assuming all the other criteria is met, that can't be considered a barrier, otherwise there are likely numerous articles out there on topics that can never get to FA. So, the question in general here is: when considering a topic that has limited (but otherwise sufficient) coverage in reliable sources, do we weigh in favor of using the most reliable sources knowing that this will remove or curtail key sections of an article that are backed by weakly reliable sources, or do we favor having a more complete article and incorporate the weaker reliable sources (as long as we are assured they are reliable) to support all appropriate sections for an article? Or is it some place in between? --MASEM (t) 16:33, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

There are, in fact, numerous articles out there on topics that can never get to FA. Whether this particular article is one of those I don't know, but I don't think the general principle is a bad one. If the sources don't exist to write an FA-level article, then such an article cannot be written, and I don't feel we should respond by weakening the criteria to allow them to (again, speaking generally). Nikkimaria (talk) 16:53, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

If there are mainspace articles that can never get to FA, with the understanding that it a limit set by how much sourcing there is, then we shouldn't be having articles on them at all. All of our core content guidelines are discouragements to creating an article that can never get more than weak sourcing in time. --MASEM (t) 16:58, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

WP:N and WP:V in practice set a much lower barrier for inclusion than the sourcing/comprehensiveness aspects of WP:WIAFA. You're welcome to try deleting all articles that can never get more than weak sourcing, but I don't think you'd get very far. Unfortunately, it seems to be a fact of the wiki that articles will always exist with no possibility of ever achieving FA. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:03, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, I don't necessary say deletion, because almost always there's ways to merge upwards to a broad, better sourced topic where such topics can be included. And there have been short FAs too (I believe several tropical storm FAs fall under that); again, it's about covering a topic to the depth that sources will allow while being sufficiently complete coverage.

To this specific article and the case in general, it is still a question whether either reliable sourcing or article completeness - or both - are important to the FA. --MASEM (t) 17:32, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

I've opposed articles at FAC because while they do meet notability, they aren't really comprehensive. I think there's lots of leeway as far as "allowable" structure for articles, but if I can't get the bare essentials on gameplay, development, reception, etc. from a video game article, I don't see how it can stand as Wikipedia's best, merely a polished piece. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 17:38, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

External links in addition to references

Hello - I'm hoping for some guidance on a point of discussion over at South African Airways Flight 295. There are a number of external links that various editors wish to keep in the external links section on account of their "importance". These links are already used in the article as references, and my understanding is that this would preclude them from being listed in the external links section too. I think WP:LINKFARM might apply, as the discussion seems to be centered around the prominence given to these links in the article. What does the FAC criteria have to say about this, as point #1 of WP:ELNO defers to here. Thanks in advance. Socrates2008 (Talk) 08:22, 14 November 2011 (UTC)