Wikipedia talk:Image use policy

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Galleries[edit]

Skeezix1000 removed this a couple of months ago, saying that it might benefit from some discussion:

Occasionally, gallery formatting is used to force multiple images to display in the correct section. This is most common if the article begins with an unusually long infobox that pushes all right-aligned images out of the section they are intended to illustrate. In this circumstance, a gallery may be considered if left-alignment is not sufficient to keep images in or near the relevant section.

I don't see any discussion, so let's talk about this.

The main point behind our gallery-related advice is this: "Don't cram a whole bunch of images into an article." The main point is not "Feel free to cram as many images in as you would like, so long as you can do that without using the <gallery> tag."

Let us assume that we are talking about an article that truly benefits from a relatively large number of images. An article that contains technical or scientific diagrams might be one such type; for example, most anatomy-related articles will have several. (We aren't talking about Baby or Bride, where more images probably means more spammy images.) The question is how to arrange those desirable images.

(NB that I reject the rather silly minority view that, even if everyone agrees that a good article on that subject would contain six images, you're not allowed to put all six of those images in unless and until you've written three screenfuls of text first.)

An article that (on a desktop system with a moderately large screen) has one screenful of text and infobox, followed by two screenfuls of a mostly-blank screen with images stringing vertically down the right margin suffers from bad layout. It does a disservice to readers by making less of the content immediately visible.

The same article, with the same text and the same infobox and the same images, is much better presented as text, infobox, and some images set horizontally across the screen, which, as a practical matter, means using a gallery tag.

This is especially important if, as this tag says, the images stringing down the page are likely to end up separated from their actual content. If you have an early ==section== in the article that compares and contrasts various artwork, then you really want those images to display directly in that section, which means not leaving their location to float around and to depend on how long the infobox turns out to be on someone's screen. If you need one image to appear in a section, then you might be able to set it |left (depending on whether the previous section also has a left-aligned image), but if you have multiple images that really ought to appear in a section, then you should use a gallery to make sure that this material is presented in the correct place. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:04, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

You were kind enough to ping me in your comments above, and then somehow I lost track of this discussion. So apologies for my delay in responding. I don't necessarily disagree, but using a gallery in the circumstances described above isn't necessarily open season to shoehorn images into the article that were being shoehorned in previously without a gallery. The section in question seems more like a helpful formatting tip that belongs more at Help:Gallery tag than here. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 21:56, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Location included in captions of animal articles is unnecessary[edit]

I would like to raise the issue of including the location of animals in image captions when this is unnecessary. I disagree with simply adding the location for several reasons.

1) Understanding. The location does not add anything to a reader's understanding of the animal. The fact the animal is in that location is usually covered by a section of text on "Distribution" or similar.

2) Notability. The inclusion of the location implies there is something notable about the animals at that location. If this is the case, it should be stated in the caption, e.g. "...showing the darker pelage than normal"

3) Interest Some editor's have claimed the location adds interest, but reading "Animal x in back yard, California, USA" is not interesting in itself, unless why this location is interesting is stated in the caption. I have some extremely good photos of my domestic cats, but I doubt many editors would accept captions suach as "Domestic cat in bedroom, Bristol, UK", "Domestic cat in bathroom, Bristol, UK".

4) Necessary. Why is the location deemed to be necessary in a caption? There is much more information that could be included such as sex of the animal, age, season of year, etc. I know some of these details will be difficult to determine, expecially for wild animals, but why then is the location necessary? If it is necessary, then there shoould be a policy stating this. We then get into the arguement of which image should be included, based only on location.

5) Advertising. Stating the location might be considered as intentional or unintentional advertising, e.g. Zoos, Museums, Wildlife Parks. Again, there might be a good reason for including the location (perhaps it is a very rare species) but this should be justified in the caption.

All comments welcome.__DrChrissy (talk) 17:56, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

To leave out the location like you did here [1] is just weird. There are two pictures of Antelopes in their native country, but nothing stating where. It was a couple of words, just a small caption. Obviously there was no problem with the length. I don't understand your hangup about this. Bhny (talk) 00:00, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
You have just answered your own question. It is the fact that the animals are in their native country which makes the location suitable for the caption - but this is not stated in the caption leaving the reader uneducated about this. I suggest you edit the caption to reflect this__DrChrissy (talk) 14:42, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
So you are now saying that we should put more information in the caption? Obviously we put the location if the location is relevant (as it is in Antelope). If the location is irrelevant then sure, we leave it out. Also, obviously a caption should be small, so it is not going explain everything (that's why we have hyperlinks). Bhny (talk) 14:43, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
I agree with DrChrissy. In general, unless there is some significant motivating factor, the location should be left off of the caption. The closest exception example I can think of where the location might be reasonable is when showing an animal in a different clime; but then again, the caption should include the clime, not necessarily the specific location. (One reason for this is that some animals express a differeing morphology in one clime but not in others. All of the rest of the data that doesn't "fit" the caption, should be on the image's own page. - UtherSRG (talk) 16:23, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
This is pretty much the same discussion as at the article talk page. There are lots of images on wiki that have unnecessary detail in captions (not just animals, look at the celebrity articles...some seem to have a zillion "My selfie with famous person foo on specific m/d/y at location X" photos...sheesh...!). I suggest that first, we look at WP:NOTSCRAPBOOK to trim out images that aren't needed for the actual article, then ask "why is THIS image still in - i.e. "Photo of foo demonstrating anatomical feature X" doesn't need a location. "Photo of foo in its native habitat in place X" is suitable for a location tag. It's all just common sense. Montanabw(talk) 18:38, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Why is this absurdly specific question being debated here? Discuss it on the talk pages of the articles in question. This is not something for the high-level image-use policy. EEng (talk) 16:13, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
@ Bhny: I am not suggesting that captions automatically include more information to justify having the location in the caption. I am suggesting that editors think "Is the location relevant?", and if it is, indicate why it is relevant in the caption. Careful editing will result in succinct captions that may only be one or two words longer, but much more informative.
  • @EEng: I'm not sure what is a "high-level" policy page? Perhaps you would like to explain what other "lower-level" page this discussion should be on? There are dozens, probably hundreds of animal related pages which this policy would affect. It would be impossible to discuss this on seperate Talk pages. I have deliberately made the objections above, general, so that an overall policy can be agreed upon.__DrChrissy (talk) 16:24, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
The captions appearing in particular articles should be discussed on the talk pages of those articles. In some cases locations will be appropriate, in some not. I don't see any need to have a Wikipedia-wide policy on captions for animal images, or for people-in-bathing-suit images, or for bridge images, or aircraft images, or any other specific kind of image. These kinds of issues are best discussed in the context in which they arise, by editors with a genuine interest in the article involved. EEng (talk) 08:30, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Supervillain Hubal[edit]

Hubal according to user:indusdreams

A user has been attempting to add this image to the article on Hubal (an ancient Arabian god of which there are no surviving representations). I have twice removed it mainly on the grounds of Unspeakable Godawfulness, though this is not, to my knowledge a policy or guideline in existence. Sporadically, similar user-created portraits or impressions of mythical figures have been added to such articles. Do we have a relevant policy on this? The user says that this is a modern impression based on sources. The sources seem to me to be comic books rather than archaology, and that's not to mention the, er, artistic qualities on display (but again, there seems to be no clear rule about artistic quality, for the obvious reason that it's very difficult to legislate on). I guess that psychedelic thing sticking out of his body on the left is supposed to be a cloak. The arrows presumably refer to the tradition of casting arrows in front of the statue as a means of divination. But this happened to a statue in the Kaaba, not a sword-wielding horned super-villain striding around in an LSD trip. Paul B (talk) 16:02, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Actually, I think it's a bull or something back there -- look close and you'll see eyes. I agree that an editor's fantasy representation isn't appropriate, but as you say I don't know if that's stated anywhere. We certainly allow user-created diagrams and stuff, and I'm not sure how to express the dividing line. EEng (talk) 17:10, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
It's a sailboat! Seriously though, I'm going to give vandalism warnings if he tries to re-add that.
If we wanted to be nice, we could say that his image is unsourced original research into unverifiable subject matter, and that its abstract form gives undue weight to particular aspects. Possibly throw WP:COI at there since he might've drawn it and could be using it to promote himself as an "artist".
Plus, I'm pretty sure WP:IAR allows us to remove an image on the grounds that it's so repelling it's being used to explain the expansion of the universe by Steady State theorists, and so tasteless that you have to rub it in wasabi and cayenne to get infants to eat it. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:02, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I reject the accusation. "at there since he might've drawn it and [[WP:NOTPROMO|could be using it to promote himself as an "artist" " as the artist's name is not mentioned so how is the artist getting promoted?

"Actually, I think it's a bull or something back there -- look close and you'll see eyes" Yes, the wikipedia page describes him as 'human-like', also other contemporary gods as portrayed with horns. see: https://www.google.co.in/search?q=baal+god&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=-GHkVN2RJ8WSuASEr4GYDg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1708&bih=821&dpr=0.8 . So I hope that explains the horns

'"I guess that psychedelic thing sticking out of his body on the left is supposed to be a cloak"' well, in deserts cloaks are pretty common, useful for shielding yourself from dust. you only need common sense on this, not sources. is there a policy where editors without common sense are not allowed to make such decisions?

"The sources seem to me to be comic books rather than archaology," Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubal : According to Ibn Al-Kalbi, the image was made of red agate, whereas Al-Azraqi, an early Islamic commentator, described it as of "cornelian pearl . <For skin colour> from same article "Hisham Ibn Al-Kalbi's Book of Idols describes the image as shaped like a human, with the right hand broken off and replaced with a golden hand." note: 'like a human' clearly indicates it was not anatomically as accurate as Greek sculpture. Hence, the techniques I have used are similar to the techniques used in contemporary sculpture or images. also, the 'LSD' effect can also be seen in the way beards/hair of contemporary images are created.

"and that's not to mention the, er, artistic qualities on display" you want to get personal? really? I think because your a nerd who sits editing wikipedia all day, you dont get laid for ages and you are taking out your sexual frustration on me.

"Plus, I'm pretty sure WP:IAR allows us to remove an image on the grounds that it's so repelling it's being used to explain the expansion of the universe by Steady State theorists, and so tasteless that you have to rub it in wasabi and cayenne to get infants to eat it. " wow, you are a very professional editor. you certainly stick to the subject and rules. Again, I don't expect some nerd desperate for a moment of power to understand quality. is this how you make up for the weak man you are in real life? I accuse both individuals here to be acting under the influence of sexual frustration and displaced aggression. I recommend wikipedia to allow only people who are subjective, stick to facts, reasoning and not use Wikipedia as a medium to vent their sexual frustration, loneliness and other insecurities.

"not a sword-wielding horned super-villain striding around in an LSD trip" sure, he should look like you, unfit, fat with a sorry 'please love me' expression on his face, thats how warrior gods are. YOU MY FRIEND are living in fantasy and comic books where they make losers like Peter Parker superheroes so you can relate to them and give them some money. seriously, get a life. learn some manners.

note: there are several users who have accused ian thomson of christian bias, so am I. now question is, are all of us wrong or is this man wrong? its clear a biased christian would not like a pagan diety to be represented. nor the psychedelic colouring, you clearly have been way too 'close' to your priest and your judgement after several standing allegations of christian bias is as valuable as my fart. infact my fart > you. seriously how much does the church pay you to insult non christian traditions? I bellieve this user is taking money from religious organizations to insult/delete non christian traditions, i strongly recommend banning him as his contribution brings down the quality & credibility of wikipedia. i never thought you guys are hired to do this also.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by indusdreams (talkcontribs)

  • I think editors should have skipped the hurtful evaluations of artistic merit, and stuck to the simple fact that editors' artwork (good or bad) isn't appropriate for articles. EEng (talk) 13:00, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

{{}} Naw, its okay, I understand its not their fault, if they had better genetics, they would have led a better life and had some taste, not their mistake they are born to who they are born. and that Ian Thompson was often found in ummm... compromising positions with his church priest since the age of 8 and you know how defense mechanisms work yea? he would be telling himself 'that was a sign I had to be the church's bitch' to make sense of it. its cool. Besides, I am very happy losers don't like my artwork, I know it appeals to people of substance now.

Out of curiosity and with due respect to you, dear EEng, why is the image not appropriate for the article? I understand this is the only image of Hubal, if there is a better one then by all means this image is not right, I feel several characteristics attributed to Hubal are portrayed. the horns which you saw (contemporary to other gods of time/place), Arrows of divination, moon symbols for the moon god description, sword for warrior god description, body made of red agate/carnelian pearl as mentioned in article, use of turquoise and blue is because the gemstones Lapis Lazuli and turquoise were extensively used in the middle east at the time, the same techniques in terms of anatomy/perception as used in existing representations of other contemporary gods, facial features sharp as common to middle east. I leave it to you, after consideration to the mentioned aspects and this being the only existing image of Hubal at the moment, should it be put on the page until a new image is made by someone?

— Preceding unsigned comment added by indusdreams (talkcontribs)

No it shouldn't, in my opinion. An unacceptable something isn't better than nothing. If you keep up this kind of talk you won't be allowed to stay on Wikipedia. EEng (talk) 16:09, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

ok, i respect ur opinion, i really like to bring back lost gods and goddess, its my passion & my reason for doing this. as for talk, yknow they started it, yes? will they also be removed for inappropriate language?— Preceding unsigned comment added by indusdreams (talkcontribs)

Paul only criticized the artwork, not you. I insulted the artwork, but still not you. You threw a personal-attack laced temper tantrum that I've seen users get blocked for.
WP:Assume good faith - One's religious beliefs do not matter here, one's behavior is what matters. If a historical statue of Hubal was discovered, I'd be quite happy to include it in the article. Abstract art is no substitute for that, however. On the matter of one's behavior, all you have done is tried to push your artwork, which could possibly go against WP:NOTPROMO.
Also, WP:No personal attacks - Notice I never said anything about you as a person Indusdreams, just the picture. As for the priest remarks: I'm Baptist, we don't have priests. Anyone who actually studied the least bit about Christianity beyond bigoted stereotypes would know that. (Again, notice that I'm speaking about your claims, not you). I cannot accurately describe the intelligence of claims regarding a Christian bias when I just spent several hours yesterday adding ten sets of the thirty-six names of astrological deities, which has prompted a discussion on my talk page regarding expanding an article on a Greco-Egyptian god. It's not content about paganism I have a problem with, it's putting bad art that has no academic backing into articles to represent historical images.
And as I've already said, we do not take material that is not supported by citing reliable sources, and we do not take original research - in other words, a drawing would have to imitate a historical statue (not just a description of one), or else be backed by a professional academic. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:45, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes, religious beliefs do not matter. but the moment I opened your user page, I find 'if you want to accuse me of christian bias, click here' something like that, now if that is how your story starts, again if you notice I am discrediting your editing skills as you are discrediting my artistic. I am discrediting the clarity of your judgement on the basis of the numerous accusations you yourself admit to be having in your page.
Now this is entering an extremely complex area. how does a person define 'you' does your editing skill or artistic skill also merit to you as it is a part of you? do you understand the complexity here? lets assume you are out for a walk, someone says hello, you reply 'don't talk please and don't get offended because I am criticizing your communication skills, not you' ? or better yet, what if your girl says 'you suck at sex, don't feel bad, I am criticizing your sexuality, not you' so my point being what we do and what we are, where can you find the boundary between the two. for the sake of arguement, I will say my criticism was regarding your editing skill or your edits, not you.
See, when you talk like a gentleman, so will I but I don't think it was logical or rational of you to expect kindness and sweet words after using the words you did. whether it is about me or what I do, there is a way to talk, I have not asked you for your opinion on my artwork so there is no need to insult my artwork if you don't like it. So understand, give respect get respect. Again, is it possible everyone accusing you of Christian bias are wrong and only you are right? just answer this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by indusdreams (talkcontribs)
Indusdreams, we understand you were contributing in good faith, and disappointment and even anger is understandable at your work being rejected somewhat harshly. We get a lot of people here who are not acting in good faith (vandalizing, trolling, self-promoting) and sometimes we mistake people like you, who mean well but haven't learned the ropes, for those others. Why don't you visit the Teahouse, where you can get to know others just starting out, and some experienced editors who have volunteered to mentor newbies? I'm sure you'll find new ways to contribute as you learn more about how this weird place works. Good luck, and happy (happier!) editing. EEng (talk) 17:56, 18 February 2015 (UTC) P.S. One of the things you need to start doing immediately is to sign your posts with ~~~~. When you save, that turns into your name and the time/date.— Preceding unsigned comment added by EEng (talkcontribs)
And if you clicked that link, Indusdreams, you'd see that it's just more evidence that your accusations of Christian bias are complete nonsense based on your anger instead of any real evidence. To discredit my editing skills, you need to provide evidence that I regularly attempt to enforce a Christian bias onto articles, something that that page shows is not the case. Otherwise, making such accusations without evidence is considered a personal attack. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:00, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
The fact that so much space is given by you to explain why you don't have a bias paints a very unreliable picture in my opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by indusdreams (talkcontribs)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Stop it, both of you. You're both in the wrong. Indusdreams, please follow the link I gave to the teahouse, and have a soothing cup there. IanT, you know better -- back to editing. EEng (talk) 18:13, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

I think we can use maths to determine whether he has an actual bias. Editors accused of bias/total amount of editors. if less than 5% of total editors are accused of bias we can determine that the accusations of bias are not a side-effect or consequence of being an editor but are influenced by the specific work done by the editor. in a yes or no question, have you, mr. thompson been accused several times of bias? yes or no?
I rest my case, EEng, if I have hurt his feelings I am sorry. mr. thompson pls don't commit suicide or get very sad, I just felt it was important to teach you some good manners. if you genuinely integrate this in your life and learn to talk, you will make yours and the people around you's life better. I have given hours talking to you, don't waste it. be a better person tomorrow with good manners. you will see you will get treated betterIndusdreams (talk) 18:27, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

question[edit]

Wikipedia's image policy sucks. Is there any way to improve it? Please tell me this is being worked on... - theWOLFchild 12:48, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

@Thewolfchild: Your comment is unclear. In what way does it suck? For example, what problems are you experiencing? --Redrose64 (talk) 14:41, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
The myriad of rules makes very difficult, if not impossible in some cases to post images. It seems the bottom is the WP is afraid of being sued... which in most cases is nonsense.
Anyway, are there any planned changes coming up or no? - theWOLFchild 16:30, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
Whether or not actual legal entanglement is a realistic possibility, Wikipedia does its best to respect copyright and privacy (as it should) plus has additional rules meant to further its free-content goals. From this discussion [2] you clearly understand a lot of the details of current policy so I don't know why you don't just come out and say what you think should be changed. EEng (talk) 16:54, 22 February 2015 (UTC)