Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles

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IMOS at List_of_Ireland_national_rugby_union_team_records[edit]

Dubsboy has made these edits, basically following my edit history, and adding ROI anywhere possible (like certain other edits). Now he will argue that because Ireland is mentioned and linked in the opening line (an edit he just did, as opposed to this one) that ROI has to be used in the tables. Now as we have discussed before on here its clearly about context use, and the context of use is clear. Any opinions on this folks? Murry1975 (talk) 12:13, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't see any discussion on either of the article talk pages, or either of your user talk pages. There are no sanctions for following WP:BRD, so why don't you revert, then discuss with the editor. FWIW, I think he's clearly out of line, and he apparently has a history of disruptive editing, but that's no reason to call in the cavalry before discussing the edits with the editor. If such a discussion shows that IMOS is capable of interpretation in different ways, maybe then we should discuss it here with a view to re-wording. Scolaire (talk) 13:35, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Personally I don't have a strong objection in that case since it represents the whole island and both parts are mentioned. I think I'd say island of Ireland or the whole of Ireland at the top as well rather than just linking. Dmcq (talk) 14:17, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Dmcq as both the island and state are being discussed, with the island mentioned in the very first sentence so I believe it should be mentioned and that it should state "the island of", which I will be WP:BOLD and add. In the table it mentions Ireland the team which represents the island so it would be wrong to state "Dublin, Ireland" as we are taking about states in the ground field and Ireland the island is not a state. Mabuska (talk) 23:10, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm still not seeing any discussion on the article talk pages! IMOS is not the place for discussing article-related content issues. Scolaire (talk) 23:32, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
This was really an attempt at meat puppetry from Murry1975. I think my edit removes ambiguity which is the whole point of IMOS. Just to note that Murry1975 made an IMOS edit prior to my own [1] replacing Republic of Ireland with Ireland. Something he does systematically across wikipedia, much the same as that other IMOS warrior. I've a telephone call here from a Mr Pot looking to speak to a Mr Kettle. Telephone call for Mr Kettle. Must be a wrong number.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dubs boy (talkcontribs) 14:03, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
Meat puppetry? I'm lost here. Who's he supposed to be acting for? Scolaire (talk) 16:50, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
Well it appears he is trying to get a gang together to revert my edits. Why else would I be cited in the topic title? This topic is as much about my application of IMOS as it is about the viewpoint taken by Murry1975.
Please read WP:NPA there, please strie the comment.
As this is an issue that will affect more than one article we need to garner consensus. And do not refractor my edits again. Murry1975 (talk) 22:34, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
And the edit I originally made was replacing [[Dublin]], [[Ireland]] with [[Dublin]], [[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]], now IMOS would state no-linking- but I general will link if it linked already. So do not misrepresent the facts the DB. Murry1975 (talk) 22:39, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
I think the personal attacks began when the topic was raised regarding myself rather than the ambiguity of IMOS. We clearly have different interpretations of IMOS. This conversation is as much about my application of IMOS as it is about yours. You believe that it is ok to remove every instance of Republic of Ireland with Ireland, when at times it clearly goes against IMOS and opens up articles to confusion.Dubs boy (talk) 13:14, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Ohhh didums. No I dont believe every circumstance, but when it is clear context as the list Lansdowne Road, Dublin, Ireland is pretty clear where it means. Now considering this is the arounf the sixth page you have stalked me onto its smelling very fimilar. Murry1975 (talk) 22:45, 27 February 2014 (UTC) This shows your personal view. You seem to want to impose your POV on here. Murry1975 (talk) 22:54, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Then it brings your own POV into question if you do not believe it is ambiguous to say that the Ireland(representing Ireland) rugby team play their games in Dublin, Ireland. And if I see a user make an error on a page that is on my watchlist, as a custodian of wikipedia I will correct the edit. I would hope you would continue to do the same, as you have done.Dubs boy (talk) 14:32, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Irish parliament[edit]

Naming people[edit]

I have a question related to Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Ireland-related_articles#Naming_people. In the case where Kevin Danaher article says "His "academic" works were signed with his Irish name, Caoimhín Ó Danachair." not a particularly well known bio, there must be better examples. Joseph Campbell (poet) (redirect from Seosamh MacCathmhaoil) etc. Are there cases (not for these examples, generally) where the English name is used in some articles/contexts and the Irish name used in other articles/contexts? In ictu oculi (talk) 09:12, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Or is there a blanket rule that whatever name is used in Bio article title, all other article mentions must follow suit? In ictu oculi (talk) 09:13, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
No, there's no rule at all. In-article use, as often as not, depends on the cited sources. An article can only have one title, but there are plenty of instances (Seán T. O'Kelly / Seán T. Ó Ceallaigh) where the two names are equally well-known, and the choice of article title is more or less by lottery. Scolaire (talk) 12:34, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
Hi User:Scolaire thanks, that's a clear and helpful answer. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:29, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
  • User:Scolaire, follow up question. How does your answer relate to MOS:FOREIGN "'Spell a name consistently in the title and the text of an article. ... For foreign names, phrases, and words generally, adopt the spellings most commonly used in English-language references for the article", could that guideline be read to say that the Irish spelling "Seán T. Ó Ceallaigh" should be removed from all other articles because the bio is, as you correctly say more or less by lottery, at the English spelling Seán T. O'Kelly? In ictu oculi (talk) 10:59, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
I'm not an expert on guidelines. However, what you have quoted to me there says that there should be consistency in the title and the text of an article. It says nothing about "all other articles". As for "spellings most commonly used in English-language references for the article", that is exactly what I said to you above: "In-article use, as often as not, depends on the cited sources." Where two names are in common use, it is to be expected that one of them will be "more commonly used" in the sources for some articles, and the other in the sources for other articles.
I'm not sure of your reason for pursuing this enquiry, but I can say that I have never seen a problem arising from the in-article use of Irish or English versions of a name where both versions are commonly used, and I would not like to see any articles disrupted just for the sake of bureaucracy. --Scolaire (talk) 13:58, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding. The guideline applies to the name used in English, not just the English name used in documents. Seán T. Ó Ceallaigh is used in lots of English documents and is used in English. If it was just used on sources in Irish then of course it wouldn't be a common name in English. Dmcq (talk) 15:16, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
Scolaire, User:Dmcq. Thank you both for your answers, yes that's clear-ish to me also, however I still wonder if the guideline should be word-smithed to make it clearer?
Scolarire, to address your question for pursuing this enquiry, it is a general principle related to en.wp style, it could be applied to German/Hungarian, Ukranian/Russian, Serbian/Albanian or any other area of "joint claim" on en.wp. I did not know that there has never been a problem arising from the in-article use of Irish or English versions of a name where both versions are commonly used, and am glad to hear it. My specific reason for questioning how WP Ireland handles MOS:FOREIGN is due to MOS:FOREIGN being cited at Talk:Pablo Casals as reason for removing the Catalan name "Pau Casals" from the 30 of 300 articles which had used it rather than his Spanish name "Pablo". I am not sure there is a direct parallel with English/Irish names and Spanish/Catalan names, but I do know that WikiProject Ireland is a much more editor-populated and active area than WikiProject Catalonia, and less controversy affected than e.g. the Balkan projects, hence more likely to have some calm experience on how to handle such issues - as in fact your answers have demonstrated. I hope this explains the question. I have no problem whatsoever with the state of any Ireland articles, which overall seem to me exemplary. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:02, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

WP:IRE-IRL and National Day of Commemoration[edit]

One IP hoping southeast England editor and one registrared editor using an IP, have both being editing the infobox and catergory list, just IP editor and IP/registrared editor. Both adding ROI in the info box, and adjusting a Ireland cat to a ROI one that doesnt exist. This is the third article that I have edited over a period of months where a pop-up s/e England IP has reverted me (see above for one) and the other user Dalriata111 (talk · contribs) has been on here awhile as an IP, set up an account main edits are GB-->UK and Ireland-->ROI (claims ROI is the name of the state since the ROI act). Now some advice and imput please. Murry1975 (talk) 14:08, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

IMOS on a side note[edit]

This edit added Banner o Airlann to the flag of Ireland article. Two things, firstly a quick search doesnt throw-up anything, and secondly, as far as I am away we dont use U/S on articles state centric. Again imput please. Murry1975 (talk) 14:13, 16 July 2014 (UTC)