Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Disambiguation pages

Disambiguation
Guideline (talk) Manual of Style (talk) Reader help (talk) WikiProject (talk) Dos and don'ts {{Disambiguation}} Disambig category Pages in need of cleanup Pages with links Suggestions for repair CJKV task force

"Break rules" section

   We have long had a "Break rules" section. (It has undergone revision since May 2005; it now reads

Application of these guidelines will generally produce useful disambiguation pages which are consistent with each other and therefore easily usable by most readers. Usefulness to the reader is their principal goal. However, for every style recommendation above, there may be pages in which a good reason exists to use another way; so ignore these guidelines if doing so will be more helpful to readers than following them.

but from the start it referenced the similar-spirited Wikipedia:Ignore all rules.)
   Apparently two years later, the (always irony-labelled) Wikipedia:Break all rules was created, and IMO the difference in spirit between the two suggests that the section heading "Ignore rules" (or "Ignore all rules") would be more consistent, and lessen confusion. (The tag {{anchor|Break rules}} should be added at the time of such a change, to preserve the existing addressability of the section.)
--Jerzy•t 08:07, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

IMO, we should drop the break/ignore rules section from the guideline, since it is well covered on its own and doesn't benefit from repetition (even if the repetition were without difference). -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:12, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

First name disambigations - deletion of

Please see my comments at Template_talk:Given_name#Too_much_disambiguation.3F. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 00:04, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Disambig pages and name pages

After getting in a minor editing dispute with Tassedethe (talk · contribs), I realized that we have a strange situation with disambiguation pages and name pages. I have some content on the name Heinrich Müller, that is, it's about the name itself and not about any particular Heinrich Müller. I learned from Tassedethe that I can't just add it to the disambig page - I have to create an article called Heinrich Müller for this content, and then a separate disambig page for the list of people with the name. This silly policy can be seen in action at Lucy and Lucy (disambiguation) as well as John Smith and John Smith (disambiguation). You'll notice that in both cases, the "article" on the name is only a stub worth of content.

In my view, this policy is absolutely ludicrous. Most users who type in something like Lucy or John Smith are looking for a particular person, not an article. And, since the articles are usually so short, I don't see any reason why we can't have the short article on the name itself followed by the list of people who have it. I'd say we only split them from each other if the article on the name is long, like more than three paragraphs or so. D O N D E groovily Talk to me 16:03, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

If there is content that is encyclopedic, it should be included in the encyclopedia (i.e., articles). If there is ambiguity about the topics covered by encyclopedia articles, a disambiguation page is needed to provide navigational assistance to that readers can find the encyclopedic content they are looking for. As you noted, most people are looking for a particular person, so there's no reason to put the name article information in between them and the information about the particular person they were seeking. Here, stubbing out the article on the name Heinrich Müller is the preferred approach, so that WP:V, WP:N, etc., can be applied, references added, and so on. It's nice to know Tassedethe has already explained this, and jumping in with accusations of "silly" and "ludicrous" may not be the best approach if you're seeking to form a new consensus. -- JHunterJ (talk) 16:31, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, that is what we have with Lucy - the page encyclopedically describes the name, and lists some of the most famous people by that name. To say that someone is named "Lucy" is not the same as to make an ambiguous reference to a non-personal-name usage, such as one of the albums or songs with that name. However, if someone types in Lucy or John Smith looking for a particular person, and thinks that of all the Lucy's and John Smith's in the world, the one they are looking for will be the subject of the Wikipedia title Lucy or John Smith, then they are at best detached from common sense. As for Heinrich Muller, the information you wish to add is really specific to the Gestapo officer; there are many, many names which are common enough to make it difficult to identify which holder of the name is the one being sought, and what you have presented is a case specific example of that, not meriting a separate article or inclusion in the disambig page. Note by comparison that our article on John Smith (name) indicates its intentional usage as a placeholder or everyman name, and adoption as a pseudonym. bd2412 T 16:42, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

To calm things down and to avoid loss of sourced content I have created Heinrich Müller (name). I think the talk page notes I have left at both pages are adequate for attribution, though I've got a feeling there's a specific template I should probably have used. I'm not sure that the name really merits its own article, as opposed to a section in the article on the Gestapo man explaining the difficulty in tracking him down, as BD2412 says above, but the content is there now, and I've made a link from the dab page. PamD 16:57, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

The template you're looking for is Template:Copied, but I think the note you left is good enough. Station1 (talk) 08:29, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Primary topic

When a page has "(disambiguation)" in its title – i.e., it is the disambiguation page for a term for which a primary topic has been identified.

While this is true in some cases it is not true in all cases. Often an article title has not been identified as the primary topic it is simply the first one that was written about and no editor has bothered to extend it with a disambiguation. Unless there is an obvious primary topic it is often not considered worth the effort -- particularly if the article is fully developed and other articles are as yet stubby.

If it is not clearly the primary topic but is the primary topic simply because it was the first article with that name to be placed under that article title, there is no reason to list it in another way from all the other articles that have the same title but are extended with a disambiguator. The current wording encourages OR, so I suggest that the sentence appending to the sentence "through its use in reliable sources"

When a page has "(disambiguation)" in its title – i.e., it is the disambiguation page for a term for which a primary topic has been identified through its use in reliable sources.

--PBS (talk) 23:36, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

It is true in all cases. The first article written at a title is the primary topic, by virtue of being the only topic. The identification may have been tacit, accidental, or implicit, but it has occurred. But that aside, how would reliable sources be used, exactly, to identify primary topics? I am unaware of any reliable sources even addressing the issue directly, other than Wikipedia. -- JHunterJ (talk) 02:55, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Primary topic does not mean the first article written about a subject on Wikipedia see WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. So while it is quite possible for the first topic to be placed under an article title to be the primary topic, this is by no means always the case. Without playing semantics with the term, the problem I am highlighting above arises when we have two or more topics with the same article title--otherwise there would be no need for a dab page, which is the reason the sentence I am proposing to change exists.

Occasionally a primary topic may be explicitly identified in reliable sources, but frequently it is identified the same way as any title is on Wikiepdia is: through the methods described in WP:AT which (unless it is a descriptive title) is done by and large is through a survey of usage in reliable sources. -- PBS (talk) 01:38, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

The first article written about a subject is indeed the Primary Topic, by virtue of being the "Only Topic", until ambiguity is later introduced. See WP:PRIMARYTOPIC: if there is only one article, then it meets both the usage and long-term significance criteria, since it far outstrips all of the other (zero) articles. This is always the case. Understanding (not "playing") the semantics is very useful when discussion disambiguation, since it is all about semantics. When a second article is created, the first editor might boldly displace the previous primary topic and make a base-name dab or even take the base name for the new article, but either of these might be reverted and lead to a discussion to see if there's consensus for the change in primary topic. Probably by WP:TWODABS it's better to leave the first article at the base name and put a hatnote to the second article until there is consensus for the change. I don't follow your logic of primary topics being identified in reliable sources, unless you are saying that reliable sources might be used to determine whether a particular ambiguous-title topic might meet the "long-term significance" criterion (or I suppose the "usage" criterion). -- JHunterJ (talk) 16:13, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

You might want to keep tabs on the discussion at WT:AT where a number of prominent editors advocate pre-disambiguation of topics based on some sort of intuition that a term might be too generic to have a specific topic as the primary topic, even if there are no titles or other topics existing in Wikipedia that are ambiguous. older ≠ wiser 16:22, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Ugh. I'll pass. I suppose if broader consensus decides to pursue such a foolish consistency, and we need to use titles like William Shakespeare (playwright born 1564) (in case another William Shakespeare decides to write plays) or Liberia (terrestrial nation) (in case an extraterrestrial civilization has a "Liberia" nation), so be it. The NYC subway project already pre-disambiguates their titles for no real reason. But as long as I know not to move them back to the base name (and instead create the base name redirect, meaning it's still the primary topic at least until ambiguity is introduced), it works. -- JHunterJ (talk) 16:39, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘The change I wish to make has nothing to do with pre-disambiguation of topics or with a case where there is only one page (hence my mention that it is not worth bickering over whether that is the primary topic or not), because the sentence I am suggesting changing is to do with the situation where there are two or more pages that could use use the same article title. JHunterJ explains what can done two dab pages etc, but it does not have to be so, the original page may stay at the original name with no analysis of what is the primary topic, simply through inertia, or because it is more trouble than its worth identifying whether or not it is the primary source, or because there is no consensus over what the primary topic is and WP:RM favours leaving pages where they are if there is no consensus for a move. The page may eventually be moved, but just because a new article is created using a dab extension does not mean that the first article is the primary topic. -- PBS (talk) 08:15, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Exactly, up until that last sentence. Everything on Wikipedia exhibits inertia; things anywhere may be wrong if it's more trouble to fix them than it's worth. Wikipedia editors, fortunately, have a high threshold for trouble, so very little actually is more trouble than it's worth. The primary topic is the topic reached by the base name, and the first article there is the primary topic until its inertia is overcome. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:20, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

PBS, you might want to take a gander at Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation#Proposed clarification: No consensus for primary topic means the page becomes a disambiguation page, where something very similar was discussed at length with no real resolution (apart from deference to the inertia of status quo). older ≠ wiser 12:44, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Although, IMO, even with that change, the primary topic would still be inertially held by the first article there until an editor moved it and put a dab page at the base name. That proposal would have changed the criteria for going through the trouble of overcoming the inertia, but it wouldn't change the fact that the first article at a title is the primary topic for that title until it isn't (i.e., until it is no longer reached by the base name). -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:46, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

People

The section MOS:DAB#People demonstrates a bad way to create a list. The dab extension is to a large part arbitrary and depending on what is chosen may move names from one end of a list to another. In the example given John Adams (martyr) could have been given the dab extension John Adams (Catholic priest) or John Adams (Roman Catholic martyr). Similarly sorting a list of names by a little used middle names or initials does not help because if one knows the middle name there should already exist a redirect to the appropriate article.

An alternative method is to sort the names in chronological order as a person looking for a specific individual usually has some notion of when they flourished. So I think it would help if the list was [also?] displayed chronologically:

John Adams (1735–1826) was the second President of the United States. John Adams may also refer to: John Adams (martyr) (died 1586), Catholic priest and martyr under Elizabeth I of England John Adams (physicist) (1920–1984), Director General of CERN and particle accelerator designer John Adams (composer) (born 1947), American composer who came to prominence with his opera Nixon in China

The use of sections for individuals also has its problems. While it works for individuals who are prominent in only one field, what happens if they are prominent in more than one? For example if an individual was both a soldier and a politician, does one list them twice or arbitrarily place then in only one section?

-- PBS (talk) 00:06, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Is this a problem on a particular dab page? It works well enough for most dab pages (as does chrono- or reverse chrono- sorting, both of which I've also resorted too). -- JHunterJ (talk) 02:57, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

If you have resorted to chronological ordering then you know what I mean. I am not suggesting removing the current example but adding an alternative to it so that new editors realise there is more than one way to order these lists. -- PBS (talk) 01:47, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Order of entries already says "Within each group within a section, and within each non-subdivided section, entries should be ordered to best assist the reader in finding their intended article. This might mean in decreasing order of likelihood as user's target, alphabetically, chronologically, or geographically, not to the exclusion of other methods." . -- JHunterJ (talk) 16:20, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

For very common names (William Smith as an example), I find sectioning by occupation as most helpful. Within that section, you can go chronologically, with the caveat that closely related people should be listed together. For example, there are two early Mormon leaders named William Smith, so they should be listed next to each other so a person looking for a Mormon leader named William Smith can see that there's two of them.

If a person falls into two categories, list it twice. If the William Smith page had different listings for actors and musicians, for example, Will Smith would belong in both sections. A person not knowing who he is that saw Will Smith in a musical context would go to the music section, while someone who saw him in a film context would looking under Actors. Ronald Reagan, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Bono are also people who would warrant double-listing on long disambig pages. D O N D E groovily Talk to me 18:29, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Forbidding piping

I'd like to take issue with the prohibition on piping in dab pages. This rule seems usually appropriate, but at times it ought to be disregarded because it produces aesthetically unappealing pages without actually increasing clarity. See, for example, the dab page Maximilian I of Bavaria. This page disambiguates between a Maximilian I Joseph of Bavaria and Maximilian I, Elector of Bavaria. The former was a king of Bavaria in the early nineteenth century, the latter a prince-elector in the early seventeenth century. Under the current rules, the list looks like:

• Maximilian I Joseph of Bavaria
• Maximilian I, Elector of Bavaria

Wouldn't it look better to have it like this:

• Maximilian I Joseph, King of Bavaria
• Maximilian I, Elector of Bavaria

Or even:

• Maximilian I Joseph, King of Bavaria
• Maximilian I, Elector of Bavaria

Either of these allows for a more closely parallel construction, and actually makes the distinction between the two clearer than current policy. Why should this be forbidden? Especially with monarchs, our various conflicting naming conventions mean that the disambiguation pages are often unsightly mishmashes, when some judicious use of piping would make these pages more aesthetically appealing without reducing clarity in any way. It seems like there ought to be more room for editors on individual pages to make decisions about formatting than there currently is. john k (talk) 07:04, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

How about:

• Maximilian I Joseph, King of Bavaria
• Maximilian I, Elector of Bavaria

Use the redirects if they are a better fit to the disambiguation page. Redirects aren't broken and they are encouraged on disambiguation pages. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:19, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the prohibition on piping in dab pages. The primary function of a dab-page is to make clear what the options are when you end up on a dab-page. The clearness of the options must no be hampered by esthetical choices. A dab-page is not an article, but an page to assist users. Night of the Big Wind _talk 15:16, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I too like the lack of piping. When I find the prose clumsy, I create a redirect. Josh Parris 22:17, 12 February 2012 (UTC)