Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-11-12/Race and Intelligence/Archive 5
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NPOV and data
Concerns have been raised about 'cherry picking' sources (particularly data-centric sources) to promote a particular ideology. Let's address that in this section. Wapondaponda, can you lay out the problem, please?
The subject of race and intelligence isn't part of the mainstream academic curriculum. Much of the data on the RI controversy has been published by just a few authors, chiefly Jensen, Rushton and a few other recipients of Pioneer Fund grants. Their publications are in the minority position in this controversy. A data-centric article would be heavily reliant on data from Jensen and Rushton and as a result, a data-centric article will give undue weight to the minority position.
The issue of a data-centric article has arisen because a data-centric model is believed to have introduced some stability to the race and crime articles. However race and crime is a different subject, and what may have worked in race and crime is not necessarily applicable to race and intelligence. Crime statistics in the US are published by government agencies. The statistics are hard facts that are quite uncontroversial. OTOH IQ test score data and its analysis lie at the heart of this controversy. AFAIK, the US government doesn't have much of an official race/IQ policy, but they do have policies directed towards the achievement gap. Race/IQ data is primarily of interest to a few academicians. In short race/IQ data doesn't have mainstream credibility or authority like crime data. I believe it is not yet possible to separate the race/IQ data from the controversy because the data is the controversy.
For example, Richard Lynn and others have published data that suggests that Sub-Saharan Africans have an average IQ of 70. An IQ of 70 in the US implies borderline mental retardation. This data suggests that half of all Africans are mentally retarded, a suggestion that some find preposterous and one that even perplexes racial hereditarians. See also Talk:Race and intelligence/Archive 74. I don't believe that it is appropriate to present IQ data with little or no context, criticism or analysis. Wapondaponda (talk) 14:30, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- Most of the scholars involved in R&I use solid external sources of data, such as medical, military, SAT. Please check the literature. If you want to stick around and specifically criticise any data we include your input would be appreciated. Analysis will follow presentation of data. mikemikev (talk) 16:33, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- The SAT, and other proxies for IQ are not solid sources of data. They suffer from all kinds of intrinsic bias issues related to the way the data is gathered. One example, the population which takes military exams and the population which takes SAT tests are very different. One study (Lynn 2006 I think) used a 10 word vocabulary test as a proxy for IQ. When methodologies like this are used it becomes difficult to make strong conclusions. If a vocab test correlates with IQ, which correlates with intelligence, and the self reported race on those tests correlates with genetic race, the confidence intervals for how race and intelligence are correlated drown out any signal in the test. And this is before one tries to determine the effects of genetics versus environment. A.Prock 18:46, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- These are criticisms which are made by participants in the debate. I know I'm belabouring an analogy, but the very same criticisms are made in the "race and crime" controversy, though directed at the way the data used to compile crime rate statistics is collected, processed and presented. These criticisms are presented in section 3.1 Data gathering methods as well as in the lead to the section Theories of causation. As long as we don't allow the controversy to affect the article's neutrality in regards to the presentation of information, we're safe. But if we start dropping data because people involved in the debate want it dropped, we've crossed the line into POV. --Aryaman (talk) 19:33, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- Including data about average results when the standard deviations and standard errors indicate that there is no statistically significant result is not neutral. A.Prock 19:35, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- We're talking about results published in reliable sources which have made their way into secondary literature. Of course, there is nothing standing in the way of presenting criticism of this material. But unless it's purely idiosyncratic flotsam, and recognized as such by peers in the field, we're not qualified judges of truth-value. Anyway, I think we're taking this further than the practical matter at hand requires. If we focus on concrete instances, I think we'd find that we have a lot we can agree on. Case in point: the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study. This is a piece of research which has been extensively analysed and commented upon by both pro-environmentalists and pro-hereditarians alike. I'd like to think we could agree on the idea that this could be presented in the article in a neutral fashion prior to any discussion of how various scholars have interpreted the results. Am I terribly mistaken? --Aryaman (talk) 20:46, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- I think including information on the "MTAS" is perfectly fine as long as it's clear that study represents research into sociological race. A.Prock 21:10, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
I would like to respond to Muntuwandi's comments point by point:
- Claim: The subject of race and intelligence isn't part of the mainstream academic curriculum.
- Response: On the contrary, mid- to high-level courses are offered at various universities around the United States discussing the topic of race and intelligence, particularly in the fields of Psychology, Sociology, and Criminology, as an issue relevant to their area of interest. The topic is presented in its socio-political context as a highly contentious one, as is to be expected, but it is not treated as "fringe science" of no relevance to mainstream academia. That is not to ignore the discussion regarding whether race and intelligence is a subject "fit for science", but the academic community - particularly in the US - is far from rejecting the study of race and intelligence out of hand. This is well illustrated by Nature Magazine's 2009 2-part coverage of the debate (both parts can be found here and here). While "race and intelligence" is not covered in Psych 101, it is part of the mainstream academic curriculum in those fields where it is relevant.
- Claim: A data-centric approach would be heavily reliant upon the work of experts such as Jensen and Rushton.
- Response: This is not the case. A quick look at the bibliography of Jensen & Rushton's Thirty Years of Research on Race Differences in Cognitive Ability reveals that the data relevant to the study of race and intelligence comes from the research a multitude of scholars. Further, arguments against the work of Jensen and Rushton based on some connection to the Pioneer Fund are tenuous at best. There is no reason why a data-centric approach would inherently favour either a pro-environmental or a pro-hereditarian position, as both of these rely upon the interpretation of a shared pool of research data.
- Just to clarify, Rushon's survey is about research into sociological race, not genetic race. As I've said before, if we want to include research about sociological race, there is plenty of data. If we want data derived from research into genetic race, there is very little data. A.Prock 18:28, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not quite sure what you mean. The "genetic" component of this debate arose as the result of a deductive process, not of an empirical observation. I assume you understand that, so I don't know what it is your comment intends to highlight. Could you clarify? --Aryaman (talk) 19:17, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, to date the most (if not all) of genetic conclusions are based on research into sociological race. With no empirical observation, it's difficult to present the data about how genetic race relates to intelligence. A.Prock 19:33, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- I think, to be fair, the research is simply done in regards to "race", with one of the underlying questions being whether or not 100% of the differences between those races can be attributed to environmental (including social) factors. As I mentioned, the genetic component entered this debate as the result of a deductive process. For hereditarians, that process resulted in the genetic component being the only one left to account for the residual differences (i.e. those remaining after corrective statistical manipulation) in IQ. Obviously, this is merely deductive and not demonstrative - hence Jensen's interest in observables such as skull volume, neural density, etc. Through these, he hopes to corroborate the conclusion he feels he has been led to through his psychometric research - though, of course, this corroboration can never be anything more than indirect, circumstantial and/or coincidental. Which is why Neisser et al. concludes that there is no direct evidence supporting a genetic cause for the difference in IQ between the races. However, to be fair to Jensen and scholars with similar views, this chain of reasoning needs to be understandable to the reader. Omitting it makes it seem like hereditarians are on some mission to prove the existence of biological races, when this is really little more than a quirk by-product of no real consequence to them as psychologists. Of course, as individuals hoping to influence the direction of public policy which reaches beyond the governance of their area of expertise, the matter may look very different, based on the individual. --Aryaman (talk) 21:10, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, to date the most (if not all) of genetic conclusions are based on research into sociological race. With no empirical observation, it's difficult to present the data about how genetic race relates to intelligence. A.Prock 19:33, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not quite sure what you mean. The "genetic" component of this debate arose as the result of a deductive process, not of an empirical observation. I assume you understand that, so I don't know what it is your comment intends to highlight. Could you clarify? --Aryaman (talk) 19:17, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, Rushon's survey is about research into sociological race, not genetic race. As I've said before, if we want to include research about sociological race, there is plenty of data. If we want data derived from research into genetic race, there is very little data. A.Prock 18:28, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- When you refer to "race" here, the concept you are referring to is sociological race. And you are correct that evidence in support of the genetic hypothesis rests entirely on analysis and of sociological data, not genetic data. A.Prock 21:20, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- I'd agree with you if it weren't for the sneaking suspicion that this is a loaded phrase. The MTAS was a study on transracial adoption with the goal of identifying the relative roles played by genetics and the environment in the development of intelligence in Black children. If you want to say that this study produced data on "sociological race", I could agree provided that it meant nothing more than that these children were selected based on their membership to a particular race as identified by society at large. But if you want to say that, by virtue of this fact, the study says nothing about the role of genes in the development of cognitive ability in those children, and that, in turn, it says even less about the role of genes in the development of cognitive ability in the population for which they were chosen as a sample, then I think I'd have to disagree. The authors obviously felt that such conclusions could be drawn from the study, and those who have commented on the study, regardless of which side they take, also think the study says something about genes, intelligence and race. So, I have a hard time making the distinction you are requesting, as it seems based on a dichotomy which is untenable given the premise upon which a good deal of this research is conducted. --Aryaman (talk) 21:49, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- When you refer to "race" here, the concept you are referring to is sociological race. And you are correct that evidence in support of the genetic hypothesis rests entirely on analysis and of sociological data, not genetic data. A.Prock 21:20, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, the study was about sociological race. No genetic testing was done to identify the race of the participants. And all conclusions were made based on classifying participants into groups based on sociological race. A.Prock 22:38, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- Twin studies are hard, but that's not what's at issue here. All I'm saying is that anything the study tells us relates to sociological race, not genetic race. Yes genetics plays a role in sociological race, but sociological race is not genetic race. A.Prock 23:37, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- Claim: What may have worked in race and crime is not necessarily applicable to race and intelligence.
- Response: No one is arguing that there is any logical necessity involved.
- Claim: Crime statistics in the US are published by government agencies. The statistics are hard facts that are quite uncontroversial.
- Response: On the contrary, the controversy surrounding the results of studies comparing IQ results of racial groups is directly analogous to the controversy present in the field of criminology regarding crime statistics which compare racial groups. The vital difference resides in the fact that those scholars who argue that race crime statistics reveal systemic bias in the US criminal justice system against minorities (or further, that there is no actual disproportionality) automatically marginalize themselves because they, in effect, must argue that the Federal Government is a racist organization - and precious few universities are willing to retain a professor advocating such a position. If the data were coming from any body other than the US government, we would have the same situation in "race and crime" as we currently have in "race and intelligence", namely: Most scholars would be afraid to say anything other than "there is no reliable data which indicates a connection between race and criminal behaviour", the organization producing the statistical information would be decried as a cover for darker and more sinister agencies (think: Pioneer Fund), and the most vocal proponents of social positivism would shout down the few scholars trying to perform objective academic research. If you read up on some of the trans-Atlantic discussion between US scholars and European scholars from countries where it is forbidden to record the race of individuals involved in crime, the parallel between the issues of "race and crime" and "race and intelligence" becomes patently obvious.
- In short, we can separate the data from the controversy, as the controversy is necessarily subsequent and secondary to the actual research. To argue that this is not the case is to take sides in the controversy itself.
- Claim: It is inappropriate to present IQ data with little or no context, criticism or analysis.
- Response: The data-centric approach does not preclude the presentation of qualified context, criticism and/or analysis.
To summarize: After reviewing Muntuwandi's comments, I do not see at present any reason why we should not apply the proposed sectioning-off of the data and the interpretations to the article. --Aryaman (talk) 17:24, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- Please be careful with point-by-point refutations like this. they tend to be taken badly, and do a disservice to the discussion.
- I think there are two points that need to be clarified here:
- quantitative research on R&I is clearly not fringe the way wikipedia defines the term. we are talking about a question of balance here, nothing more, so let's try to avoid language that's too extreme.
- we're having trouble with the word "data", which seems to be used variably to mean (1) actual data (such as crime statistics and military records) (2) quantitative research (publications based on testing data), and (3) the researchers who publish quantitative data of a particular type or form a particular perspective (I'm not quite sure on this one, but it seems to be implied). "Data" also seems to be used to exclude a whole lot of non-numerical research, which I think would surprise the academics publishing those works. can we clarify precisely what we mean by "data" in data-centric? it would be better to make a list here and add to it, rather than letting the conversation fall into a protracted argument. --Ludwigs2 18:31, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
I was about to re-rebut but since it is likely to lead to a protracted argument, I will avoid doing so and instead briefly summarize my concerns. Whenever I have done some research on this topic, whether online or in a library, I have had difficulties in finding information on the subject that isn't in some way based on, or related to, the studies of Jensen and Rushton. This has been my experience, it may be different for others. If someone wanted data on the subject of RI, I would suggest The Bell Curve or Jensen's magnum opus, The g Factor. Both these books are filled with data( means, medians, correlations, variances SDs etc). Yet these books are highly controversial and the theories in these books have not gained mainstream acceptance. OTOH, if someone wanted data on crime statistics, they can easily be obtained from The Bureau of Justice Statistics. There isn't much controversy regarding the actual data, rather the controversies exist about public policy on crime. AFAIK, there isn't an equivalent government website that has race/IQ stats in such detail. Data may exist for SAT scores, and SAT may have a "g" component but this isn't explicit IQ data. To address Ludwig's concern about data, my impression is that a data-centric article will have data that is similar to the data found in publications such as The Bell Curve and The g Factor. This is my main concern about a data-centric article, that it will directly or indirectly give undue weight to hereditarian theories as suggested by Jensen and others. Wapondaponda (talk) 00:42, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
I would like to point out that it's impossible to have a data-centric article about race and intelligence as you can not measure intelligence, partly because you can't even define it. The data measures tests scores on IQ tests and other tests. That does not measure intelligence, but how good you are at taking these kinds of tests. A data centric article would have to be renamed "Race and IQ". The problems with the lack of data and the minority centric view would then be relevant, but for Race and Intelligence it's not relevant as there simply is no data whatsoever. --OpenFuture (talk) 09:05, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Proposed: single-editor revisions
discussion about whether it be useful/acceptable to choose one editor to revise the article broadly, with other editors restricting themselves to talk page contributions. Naturally, all editors would have the opportunity to reject the final result, but the hope would be that a single editor (acting without interference and in good faith) might be able to create a version acceptable to all parties.
I think this is a good idea if DJ would be the person writing the article. Virtually all of his/her contributions to the article have been neutral and beneficial, and very few users here have expressed any problems with them. Based on the way he handled the Race and Crime article, I think Varoon Arya could also do a good job writing this, but I think DJ would be the best choice. --Captain Occam (talk) 02:48, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
I don't think it's a good idea. I don't trust people who say there's no such thing as biological race to write an unbiased article about whether it's related to intelligence. Nor could I write a decent article explaining that Dr. King isn't really negro and that believing he is just someone's opinion. It's not literally impossible, but it's like expecting creationists to write the article about evolution. Each section should be written by someone who believes what he's writing about belongs in Wikipedia, reviewed by the rest of us, and then defended here like a dissertation. Also:
| Tucking away some extended content, because this runs off topic for this section. I think it belongs in the #social vs. genetic section, maybe? |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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"...And therefore it's not true." The fact that some people find it preposterous only means that the common use of the word "retarded" is inaccurate and cruel, and that people don't have to be drooling mongoloids in order to have an IQ of 70.
To say that self-reported race is different from biological race one must believe either:
1) That there is no correlation between self-reported race and (trivial) physical features such as dark skin and wide noses, or
2) That differences in these physical features are not due to differences in DNA.
Including this fringe idea in Wikipedia at all is improper, but I'm willing to compromise and let it be one short section, modulo it include a statement that most experts DO believe that there are three (main) races of humans, that the contrary assertion appears only or almost only in R/I debates, and that other fields of science have no problem with the concept of biological race. However I'm willing to forgo including those statements in the name of consensus, so we can get this article completed and I can go back to learning stuff instead of defending the publication of that which is already known.
Finally, I think I ought to say that per request of the new moderator, I'm trying hard not to say things that are "objectionable". Sadly, I guess I should have expected it from an anti-heriditarian moderator, but:
1) It's the implications of legitimate research which some people find objectionable.
2) Politeness is something autistics can barely even detect, much less generate. If this post makes some people pissed off (or however you say it politely), I apologize because that's not my motivation for spending over an hour writing it and I really don't want to get banned from another online forum. TechnoFaye Kane 08:13, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
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- The person who Varoon Arya and I have suggested should write the article is DJ, who I’m pretty sure hasn’t made this claim. I think you should look through DJ’s history of edits before you judge his/her ability to write the article in a reasonable manner; it’s rather rash of you to assume that you’ll disapprove of an article written by DJ if you aren’t familiar with him/her.
- Also, I think this is the wrong section of the talk page for replying to Muntuwandi’s comment. His comment is being discussed in the “social vs. genetic” section, but this section is for discussing the idea of having the article written primarily by a single editor. I’d appreciate it if you could move your reply to Muntuwandi up to the section where his comment is being discussed. --Captain Occam (talk) 08:49, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
- Occam, I've archived it for now. she can move it or rewrite it as she chooses. and please, leave these kinds of structural things to me; it's better if you all just focus on content. If someone gets annoyed at me for archiving or moving material there's no harm done, since I don't have a stake in the debate. but if one of you starts trying to deal with structure you run the risk of creating bad feelings. If you think I've missed something, leave a note on my talk page and I'll deal with it. --Ludwigs2 09:19, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
I think DJ or VA singlehandedly putting together a first version is fine (if they are happy with this). I guess someone will have to think up a structure plan at some point, before writing the article. It would do no harm to put that up for comment while work progresses. mikemikev (talk) 16:02, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
- I have an idea of what the structure of the article could be if it were to take a data-centric approach, but I'm not sure if it's premature for me to be getting into that at this point. Ludwig, are we ready to start discussing specifics about what the data-centric approach should look like, or do we first need to spend longer making sure consensus supports this idea? --Captain Occam (talk) 16:14, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
- I've created a section below, and copied in the todo template I used above. why don't you go ahead and edit in your proposal for a data-centric article there, and then we'll get comments and revise it. --Ludwigs2 18:16, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
I expect that Varoon Arya would be a good editor to do a rewrite of the article. He seems to have the ability and the energy, and seems generally receptive to alternate viewpoints. That said, I think this only works if he works well with a reliable set of editors (I would suggest Alun or Slrubenstein as primary editor). As I said above, the editors probably should not edit the article directly themselves. Of course, it may be that the final version of the article isn't acceptable, and we still find ourselves spinning our wheels. A.Prock 05:57, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
time to start the process
Ok, I think we have hammered out most of the points that we can for the moment. I suggest that we adopt this 'single editor' approach and get a version of the article created. then we can examine the result and see if any new concerns raise themselves. I'll add an FAQ of the current resolveds here in this section in a bit.
DJ and Varoon Arya seem to have consensus for making a draft - does one of you want to accept the task? --Ludwigs2 19:02, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
- You may recall that when I made this suggestion it was not a single editor suggestion. Here's what I wrote: "I might favor a similar approach of selecting a primary writer and an set of editors charged with pointing out problems, but not with actually editing the article." Unless we have a named set of non-writing editors to help shepherd the process, I don't think a single-writer approach will work out. I was also wondering if we can set up a mediation faq/summary which represents the points of consensus, possibly including it in the header of the article's talk page. A.Prock 21:20, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
- well, obviously, the other parties would participate from the talk page. the sole advantage of a single-editor mode is that it precludes reverts, cross-editing, and other article-space issues that can monkey-wrench the process. the goal here is to get a version up and running that's close to complete, as quickly as possible; then we can all sit back and do a round of critiques and discussions. basically it's a system for building a forest without getting bogged down in fights over particular trees. --Ludwigs2 22:21, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think you understood what I said. I specifically think that the process should have a named set of dedicated editors to guide the process. If that set isn't named, the primary writer will either be engulfed with a cacophony of talk page debate which will either have to be ignored, or will hamper productivity. If the primary writer knows which editors he should primarily work with, he will be free to spend more time being productive. Again, if this approach isn't taken I expect the any attempt to rewrite the article will be difficult and unproductive. If you want to not get bogged down in fights, establishing a small set of co-editors is crucial. A.Prock 22:31, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
- I had just assumed that the people involved in mediation would be the only people involved in the discussion, and I was prepared to exclude others from the conversation until the first set of revisions was done. there's only 8 or 9 people involved - that shouldn't produce too much of a cacophany - and I'm quite up to the task of fending off others for a short period while we get the article stabilized. --Ludwigs2 22:50, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
- There is one issue that has been overlooked. There is an assumption that everyone has agreed that the article should be rewritten. The default option, which is the article remain the same as it was before the dispute erupted, has not been considered. It is indeed possible that, but for the few minor changes that have been argued, that some editors may feel that there is no need for any major changes. I recall that RI had been stable for a couple of months and the dispute arose because some editors wanted to add more of Jensen/Rushton's work. IOW, one side of the dispute is requesting major changes, but it is not clear what those on the other side of the dispute think. Wapondaponda (talk) 01:24, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
- I had just assumed that the people involved in mediation would be the only people involved in the discussion, and I was prepared to exclude others from the conversation until the first set of revisions was done. there's only 8 or 9 people involved - that shouldn't produce too much of a cacophany - and I'm quite up to the task of fending off others for a short period while we get the article stabilized. --Ludwigs2 22:50, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
- (to Ludwig2)I think 8 or 9 editors trying to tell one writer what to do is far too many. I think something on the order of two or three is more reasonable. To be clear, I am not really in favor of just handing the article to one writer and having everyone else squabble over what's being written. That seems far too close to what's gone on in the past. That said, I'm not against every editor being part of the process. What I'm suggesting is that a couple of editors be elevated to the level of "listen to these guys first". A.Prock 01:28, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
- (to Wapondaponda) One writer does not mean that the article needs to be rewritten, just that one person is in charge of doing all the actual content edits until mediation is over, whatever those edits may be. A.Prock 01:34, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
- “The default option, which is the article remain the same as it was before the dispute erupted, has not been considered. It is indeed possible that, but for the few minor changes that have been argued, that some editors may feel that there is no need for any major changes.”
- This question has been discussed and resolved. The decision was that the article should take a “data-centric” structure, which is not the structure that it currently has. By necessity, changing its overall structure will have to involve rewriting a large portion of it.
- “I recall that RI had been stable for a couple of months and the dispute arose because some editors wanted to add more of Jensen/Rushton's work.”
- The only reason why the article was “stable” for a few months is because anytime anyone tried to change anything about it, the discussion would devolve into a debate over things like the meaning of “race” and whether the hereditarian view should be considered “fringe”. These arguments would never reach any kind of resolution, which made it impossible to obtain consensus for any significant changes to the article. Now that they’ve been resolved during the course of the mediation, though, I think the assumption is that we’ll be proceeding with the changes that were previously prevented by our inability to resolve these issues on the article talk page.
- Our inability to resolve these questions, and the consequent inability to make any significant changes to the article, was the reason why we sought mediation in the first place. By agreeing to the mediation, all of us (including you) were agreeing that mediation was a worthwhile course of action in order to solve this problem, which in turn is based on the assumption that the problem (our inability to make significant changes to the articles) was worth solving to begin with.
- “DJ and Varoon Arya seem to have consensus for making a draft - does one of you want to accept the task?”
- Both of them seem to have dropped out of the mediation process, at least for the time being, possibly because it seemed to have stalled for a little while when we were all arguing over minor wording issues. If you want them to answer this question, you’ll probably need to get them involved in the discussion here again. --Captain Occam (talk) 01:49, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think there is any consensus that the article should be a "data driven" article. A.Prock 03:44, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
- Um, we spent quite a while resolving this, and I think almost everyone agreed about it. Because of the way Ludwig has moved things around on this page, I’m no longer sure of where all of the discussion about this is, but perhaps he can remind you of how the discussion went if you really don’t remember.
- Considering the amount of time it took for us to resolve this the last time we discussed it, I really hope it’s not going to be necessary for us to rehash this entire discussion now. Ludwig, do you have any advice here? --Captain Occam (talk) 04:33, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
- Captain Occam, for the umpteenth time, would you kindly avoid putting "consensus" in other peoples mouths. A consensus exists when editors involved, including those on different sides of a dispute, explicitly and unambiguously state that there is a consensus. In the absence of such statements, consensus should not be assumed. Wapondaponda (talk) 05:40, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
- Considering the amount of time it took for us to resolve this the last time we discussed it, I really hope it’s not going to be necessary for us to rehash this entire discussion now. Ludwig, do you have any advice here? --Captain Occam (talk) 04:33, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
- There were editors on both sides of the dispute who agreed with this; I’m pretty sure that Ramdrake and Slrubenstein both did. At the very least, they both have acknowledged that a data-centric approach was the one we’d be using, without expressing any problem with this idea. There was enough of a consensus for everyone involved in the mediation to be agreed for around a month that this was the approach we’d be using, until the two of you decided tonight that you had a problem with this decision.
- I don’t think we should have to discuss this again. I don’t know how to make this any clearer: it was discussed at length already, any additional discussion will only repeat the earlier discussion, and it will also sidetrack us from the topic that Ludwig intended for us to be discussing here. More generally, if topics that we’ve already resolved in this mediation are going to start having to be revisited like this, it’s going to prevent us from making any progress towards resolving the mediation. In the interest in preventing the mediation from being any more sidetracked by this than it has been already, I’m probably not going to reply if anyone tries to re-discuss this issue here any further. --Captain Occam (talk) 06:11, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
- Incidentally, I suppose this is a good litmus test for whether or not I should continue to participate in the mediation. When I was planning on quitting around a month ago, it was because I was doubtful about whether any conclusion we reached in this mediation was likely to make a long-term difference, or whether some users were likely to reject it or deny it at some point later on without any additional discussion about it. This example is a lot more clear-cut than the one about whether to continue using the version of the article that DJ wrote while it was called Between-group differences in IQ, because in this case whether or not to use a data-centric approach was one of the main topics that the mediation has focused on.
- If we can’t even stick with our earlier decision about this, then I have zero confidence in users’ ability to stick with any other decision we make about the article in this mediation. And if everything else that we spend weeks or months resolving here is potentially subject to being rejected on the spur of the moment, then my participation here is definitely a waste of my time. --Captain Occam (talk) 06:52, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
Cap'n Occ - as far as I'm concerned, if there is an editor who disagrees sufficiently to make a point of it, there is no consensus. there may have been a consensus before, and that might be a good place to start to refine a new consensus, but no one is honor-bound to conform to a previous agreement against their will.
With respect to the data-driven model: there were some contentions over that idea that were based on worries that a data-driven model - actually, a replication of the model used on race and intelligence - would unfairly privilege some perspectives over others (I believe the phrase used was 'cherry-picking data that supported particular POVs', from Wapondaponda) and that trying to solve the problem by defining the structure would be ineffective (from AProck). I think there was a lot of support for the idea, but not unanimous agreement. rather than deciding the issue now as a finality, I might suggest that we start by using a data-centric model, just to get the ball rolling, but leave our options open if it looks like it's leading the article astray. I'm open to other suggestions, of course - what do you all think? --Ludwigs2 08:54, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
- “rather than deciding the issue now as a finality, I might suggest that we start by using a data-centric model, just to get the ball rolling, but leave our options open if it looks like it's leading the article astray.”
- What you’re suggesting sounds fine to me. What I really want to avoid is having to re-start the entire discussion about whether to use a data-centric structure, since we spent at least two weeks discussing this question the previous time we discussed it, and I doubt we’d be able to resolve anything by discussing it again that we didn’t resolve last time.
- There’s also another reason I’m reluctant to try and re-resolve this issue, which is that a lot of the users who were involved in the mediation when we discussed this previously aren’t active here currently. I’m thinking of Varoon Arya, DJ and David.Kane in particular. These three users were all advocates of using a data-centric structure, so if we restart the debate over whether to use a this structure at a time when none of these users are active here, it’s going to create the appearance that there are fewer users involved in the mediation who approve of this than there actually are.
- “if there is an editor who disagrees sufficiently to make a point of it, there is no consensus.”
- It isn’t imperative that we resolve this right away, but I think we’ll need to discuss this at some point before the mediation is finished—do you think it’s necessary for us to have 100% agreement among all the users here about something before we can consider it resolved, and if so, do you think that’s an attainable goal? The usual definition of consensus at Wikipedia is more modest than this. And as for attainability, how likely do you think it is that we’ll be able to come up with a final version of the article that Alun and TechnoFaye will both approve of? Even if everyone else can come to an agreement about what the eventual article should be, TechnoFaye seems adamant that the hereditarian hypothesis be presented as the only valid explanation for the IQ difference, and Alun seems adamant that we do the same for environmental explanations. Is the agreement of 100% of the users here necessary even when there are users who take extreme positions like this, and refuse to compromise? --Captain Occam (talk) 09:35, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
I would suggest that anyone willing to make major changes can create a temporary draft in a subfolder for the talk page of R/I and can use the Template:Workpage. Participants can review and if there is a consensus the changes can be implemented. If rejected the draft should be deleted. If a draft is of better quality than previous versions, then it doesn't matter whether it is datacentric or not. When we signed on to this mediation, the agreement was that during the process, no edits, except if there is a consensus, would be made to the article. I believe that most of us have refrained from editing the article during this mediation, but nonetheless the article may have evolved somewhat during the mediation. This mediation should include the "do nothing option", which in this case refers to the stable version that existed prior to the dispute. Apart from the "hereditarian arguments", the only other major problem with the pre-dispute version was that the article was too long. Wapondaponda (talk) 10:53, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
- @ Occam: My approach to consensus doesn't use that 'black and white' perspective. The point here is not to get everyone to agree (which is impossible) but merely to reduce disagreements to an acceptable level for all participants. consensus doesn't mean "everyone says it's right"; consensus means that everyone is willing to except it as neutral (with appropriate reservations).
- @ Waponda: I'd sugest that we edit directly into mainspace. there hasn't been a lot of activity on the article during the mediation, so I don't think that's too much of a worry, and editing in a subpage seems like a lack of commitment to the process. we should commit ourselves to making the change now, rather than putting off the actual implementation of the changes to some unspecified future point. --Ludwigs2 15:47, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
Sorry I've been absent lately, but recent developments in RL are eating up all of my spare time - and then some. Even if we had an agreement on the 'one editor' proposal and folks could handle me doing it, I simply don't have the time the job requires, and won't for several months.
At this point - and taking the climate of this mediation into consideration - my earnest suggestion to Ludwigs is to begin by mercilessly stubbing the article down to the section currently labeled "Overview". That is the only section which has near-universal editorial consensus behind it, which is entirely on-topic and which is as non-POV as we can hope to get right now.
Of course, such a stub would need to be expanded. But every new piece of information added to the article would need to be written up as a proposal, discussed and tweaked/voted on as a group before being added. And, I think the only way to do this is for Ludwigs to act as the buffer between the editors and the article every step of the way. It's ridiculous, but it seems the situation requires it. --Aryaman (talk) 13:46, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
- WhenI came out or "data driven," I meant that the difference in aveage IQ scores corelated with race, and race in this case was self-identified, open the article and we see different research onthe topic following from this. Remember I also hel that the AAPA statement be relied on as the standard for mainstream, minority, fringe views on biological "race," the APA statment be relied on for psychological views on race and intelligence. I think if DJ is charged with an initial drafting I would agree if there was a comittee of Muntuwandi, A.prock, and Varoon Arya guiding the process and making additional edits. All guided by the signposts Ludwigs2 derived from our discussions here. That would produce a draft I think I could trust. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:07, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
- Now that we know Varoon Arya doesn’t have enough time to revise the article himself, do we know for sure that DJ still doesn’t? It was around two weeks ago that he told us he wouldn’t have time for this himself, and it’s possible that circumstances have changed for him since then.
- If DJ still doesn’t have time for it either, the one other editor involved in the mediation whom I’d be willing to accept in this role is David.Kane. There isn’t anyone else who I trust to be both knowledgeable and neutral enough to do a good job revising it. (And I know a lot of you don’t trust me about this, so I don’t think I’m a good choice either.)
- If Varoon Arya, DJ and David.Kane are all unable to do this, I’m not sure what the best course of action would be in that case. One possibility is to see if we can find someone who’s not currently involved in the mediation who could help us with this. Another would be to just wait, and leave this mediation case open until either DJ, VA or David.Kane eventually has enough time to revise the article. As reluctant as I am to delay things unnecessarily, at least this way we could be confident that the article will be revised eventually. --Captain Occam (talk) 15:58, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
- 1) I am still actively reading the discussion. I just haven't felt the need to chime in recently. 2) I am not a fan of the data-centric approach. 3) That said, I am a fan of listening to the mediator and starting the process of working on the article. 4) I have a bunch of time now to devote to the project. 5) I agree that DJ would be the best lead author. 6) I agree with Slrubenstein that input from Muntuwandi, A.prock, and Varoon would be critical to our success. David.Kane (talk) 19:23, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
- It seems like most people here are agreed that DJ would be the best lead author. Can anyone contact him to find out whether he’s still too busy to be able to do this, and if so, how long it’s likely to be before he has enough time for it? If it’ll only be a week or two, it might be worth waiting that amount of time so he can do it.
- I’ve also found someone else (outside of the mediation) who might be able to help us, if we end up needing that. He’s a cognitive psychologist who specializes in intelligence testing, and actively publishes research in this field, which makes him more of an authority on this topic than (I think) anyone else involved in the mediation. The article is currently tagged as needing the attention of an expert on this subject; he would certainly fit the bill. I haven’t asked him yet whether he’d like to help us with the article, but I can if other people here think that would be helpful. --Captain Occam (talk) 20:37, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
- Sure, why not ask him. I agree there's no rush here. I think we've made progress recently, with 'fringe' resolved and I feel (hope) sociological/biological/genetic race is resolved. So it will be fine to wait until an agreeable primary editor is available. mikemikev (talk) 09:29, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that DJ would be, by far, the best choice. I also think that Occam's friend would be excellent. David.Kane (talk) 18:03, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
- David Kane, can you say a bit more about why you do not like a dada-centric approach and what you see as the alternative? I explained or tried to explain more clearly what I meant by "data driven" (I am not sure if others share my definition) - is that what you reject, or some other formulation? As to the "committee," I am not sure if David Kane is rejecting Muntuwandi. If so, I would propose Wobble instead. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:00, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
- I don't have anything insightful to say about data-centric versus non-data-centric. I just didn't want to pretend to be a fan. Also, I don't mean to be rejecting Muntuwandi (or anyone else). David.Kane (talk) 18:03, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
- Also, let me offer an idea - since David Kane has the time and may have the interest in doing the revision, and since he opposes the data-centric model, he may (oddly) be the best person to try to revise the article from a data-centric perspective. a lot of times people can give much better, fairer, and more neutral presentations of things they disagree with than they can of things that are nearer and dearer to their hearts. --Ludwigs2 12:06, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
- Mikemikev, I asked DJ about this on his userpage yesterday evening, but he hasn’t responded yet. That isn’t a good sign: if he’s not even active enough here to be able to respond to questions on his userpage within a day, we probably shouldn’t get our hopes up about him having enough time to write the article.
- But I guess we can still wait to see if he’ll be able to help us at some point in the near future. In the meantime, I’ll ask the psychologist I mentioned about this. It’s kind of difficult to get in contact with him, though, so that might take a little while also. --Captain Occam (talk) 23:00, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
- Ideally, writing the article would be an administrative process as it would simply involve adding the material that has been agreed upon in this mediation. If writing was simply administrative, then who gets to write the article shouldn't be a critical decision, it would simply be someone who is part of the mediation, is willing and has the time. I am concerned that some of us maybe tired of this process and simply want to get it over and done with. However I haven't seen any progress on the core problem, which is how much of the hereditarian hypothesis would be included in the article.
- If at any time, someone comes up with a version of an article that everyone is satisfied with, then this mediation would gladly come to an end. I therefore am not against any efforts to start writing. But this process doesn't have to be rushed (see the essay WP:DEADLINE). As Slrubenstein had stated earlier, many editors have been interested in this article for years, and probably will be interested for years to come. There will be fluctuations in activity levels of this mediation because editors have to deal with RL, but in the long run, there will always be individuals willing to contribute. It is more important to come up with an article that is stable, than to come up with an article tomorrow or next week.
- But I guess we can still wait to see if he’ll be able to help us at some point in the near future. In the meantime, I’ll ask the psychologist I mentioned about this. It’s kind of difficult to get in contact with him, though, so that might take a little while also. --Captain Occam (talk) 23:00, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
- AFAIK, we haven't made much progress on the core issues, and so I still suggest a draft page to address the specifics. The advantage of a draft is that there is no pressure and we can experiment different options without "edit warring". Wapondaponda (talk) 01:19, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
- Even though we haven’t come up with a specific answer to the question of how much space to give the hereditarian hypothesis, I think one of the benefits of using a “data-centric” structure is that this structure would provide a way around that question. The raw data does not specifically support one hypothesis or another—if it did, there would not be any debate over the cause of the IQ difference, would there? Evidence that’s commonly cited in favor of environmental factors, such as the Eyferth study and the Flynn effect, still needs to be explained by the hereditarian hypothesis, and the same holds true for environmental explanations and evidence that’s most commonly cited in favor of the hereditarian hypothesis. Just to give an example of what I’m talking about, Arthur Jensen devotes around 15 pages to discussing the Flynn effect in The g Factor, while Richard Nisbett devotes around the same amount of space in Intelligence and How to Get It to discussing regression among siblings. The data in this field is always the same, regardless of who’s writing about it, so if the data is what our article is describing, we won’t have to worry about how much space we’re giving to each viewpoint.
- I agree that ideally, the final version of the article could be written by anyone involved in this mediation, but the main issue is that some editors are more likely than others to introduce their personal bias into the article while writing it. Going with two obvious examples, I wouldn’t want the article to be revised by TechnoFaye or Alun, because TechnoFaye is adamant that we describe the hereditarian hypothesis as the only valid explanation of the IQ difference, while Alun is the same way about environmental explanations. Our discussion about who should write the article is mostly about who will be best able to do so neutrally. --Captain Occam (talk) 02:51, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
- I had earlier suggested Alun be involved in the rewrite. I did so because of his comprehensive knowledge of molecular genetics. But if people object, I would ask that Muntuwandi be involved in the rewrite. He has demonstrated a solid knowledge of debates and a willingness to dialogue with others. All of us have some sort of bias. Arya is biased, although I also respect his knowledge. If Arya is involved in the rewrite I think Muntuwandi should as well. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:47, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that ideally, the final version of the article could be written by anyone involved in this mediation, but the main issue is that some editors are more likely than others to introduce their personal bias into the article while writing it. Going with two obvious examples, I wouldn’t want the article to be revised by TechnoFaye or Alun, because TechnoFaye is adamant that we describe the hereditarian hypothesis as the only valid explanation of the IQ difference, while Alun is the same way about environmental explanations. Our discussion about who should write the article is mostly about who will be best able to do so neutrally. --Captain Occam (talk) 02:51, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
- I don’t have a strong opinion about who’ll be involved in the rewrite, in terms of providing advice and feedback to the person making the revisions. What I’m talking about here is just about who’s going to be making the revisions themselves. If VA and DJ both aren’t able to do this anytime soon, I think the person who should be making the revisions is David.Kane, possibly along with the psychologist I mentioned earlier. (If I can get him to help us, that is—getting in contact with him again is proving more difficult than I’d anticipated.) --Captain Occam (talk) 10:20, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
I think one editor is the only workable plan. Of course they would have to be as neutral as possible. IMHO: TechnoFaye and I are too hereditarian (although I accept the environmental possibility, not sure if Faye does); Alun, Wapondaponda, Aprock and Slrubenstein are too environmentalist; Occam, Aryaman, David Kane, Ludwig and DJ are roughly neutral. I would be happy with any of the neutral editors. Is Ludwig compromised as an option? mikemikev (talk) 10:35, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
I do not know that I have ever asserted any claim about either the hereditarian or environmentalist positions, specifically. I think Aryaman and Muntuwandi seem equally neutral. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:10, 1 March 2010 (UTC) [1]mikemikev (talk) 18:53, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
- While I certainly think environmental explanations hold more weight, I only base that view on the science, not my own personal opinions. The unfortunate reality is that directly testing for genetic factors relating to intelligence has been impossible until recently, and now that it is possible it has generally been inconclusive. This contrasts with environmental effects for which there is much direct evidence with respect to intelligence. That said, I have neither the time, nor the skills to do major editing. A.Prock 21:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
- I’ve got some good news here. I got in contact again with the psychologist I mentioned earlier, and I’m pretty sure he’ll be willing to help us. He’s the primary author of this paper about race differences in reaction time. So if someone with the name “Bryan Pesta” or some variant of it shows up here within the next few days, that’s who it is.
- Based on my discussions with him, his opinion about this topic seems to be that the cause of the IQ difference can’t be identified at this point, but that no simple environmental explanation is adequate. In addition to his level of knowledge, I think someone with this type of opinion is exactly who we need in order to edit the article neutrally. He doesn’t have a lot of experience with the style-related aspects of how to write Wikipedia articles, but I think one of us should be able to give him the guidance he needs with that, or possibly let him give us instructions about content while one of us does the actual editing.
- David.Kane, you were my suggestion for who should be the one revising the article if DJ and Varoon Arya aren’t able to do it. What would you think of working together with Bryan Pesta on this, either by giving him instructions on the proper style for writing articles here, or by editing the article yourself while following his instructions about content? --Captain Occam (talk) 05:53, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- I am happy to help in whatever way the moderator would find useful. To participate meaningfully, Pesta will have to learn at least a few Wikipedia editing tricks. David.Kane (talk) 19:50, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- Captain, it is hard for me to understand how in good faith you can say "no simple environmental explanation is adequate." Of course no simple environmental explanation is adequate. That is because no simple explanation is adequate. One could say the same about genetics - no simple genetic explanation is adequate. So I am very puzzled as to why your psychologist friend does not believe that "no simple genetic explanation is adequate." Does he believe that a simple genetic explanation is adequate? Why did he not simply say, "no simple explanation is adequate?" Slrubenstein | Talk 14:23, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- What Occam has described is basically what the APA report claims, so I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Pesta holds a similar view. I welcome his participation here, particularly if it helps to make clear that there is a crucial difference between the 100% environmental thesis and research which identifies the potential effect of particular environmental factors. Confusing the two makes it seem as though the environmental-only thesis has more support than it actually does, when the real academic consensus is that we simply don't know. --Aryaman (talk) 14:40, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- In general, I too would very much welcome a professional's draft. I very much doubt that Dr. Pesta is coming from some radical position, but if he is usual wikipedia policies will still apply. A.Prock 17:49, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- Any individual who is knowledgeable about the controversy is welcome to participate in this mediation. Specialists have made significant contributions to wikipedia, especially when it comes to creating or editing articles whose subject matter is highly complex or technical. However no special treatment should be awarded to any editor simply based on their qualifications in RL. Wikipedia policies and guidelines should take precedence at all times, and this means that the opinions of a specialist or expert are relevant only if they have been published in reliable sources. We know that the status of being an "expert" has been abused before when some editors have used their "expertise" to carry weight in content disputes (see Essjay controversy)
- In the field of psychology, the RI controversy is currently at a stalemate, since in its traditional form, the field of psychology, is mainly associated with analyzing psychometric test scores. Major breakthroughs in the study of intelligence are likely to arise from interdisciplinary efforts that will include the biological sciences, such as neuroscience, molecular biology and genetics. Arthur Jensen named his book "The G Factor: The Science of Mental Ability" but maybe he should have named it "The G Factor: The Statistics of Mental Ability", simply because what is known about intelligence is mostly statistical, the actual biological or biochemical processes by which the human brain produces intelligence are still unknown or poorly understood. Though IQ is thought to be stable and predictive of social outcomes, one criticism from psychologists is that IQ has yet to be associated with any biological process, and that unlike measures of height and weight, one IQ point has no biological meaning. In short, I wouldn't expect a lot of new information, especially information that isn't already in the article, to come from the field of "traditional psychology". The current article is already heavily referenced, with over 160 footnotes. Wapondaponda (talk) 05:39, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
- In general, I too would very much welcome a professional's draft. I very much doubt that Dr. Pesta is coming from some radical position, but if he is usual wikipedia policies will still apply. A.Prock 17:49, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
- After reading other users’ comments, and thinking about this some more, I’ve got a better idea of what I think makes most sense here. This is what I suggest:
- David, I think you should go ahead and start editing the article. (In the mainspace, since that’s what Ludwig suggested.) We already have a fairly good idea of what eventual structure we’ll want the article to have, as we worked out in the “eventual page structure” discussion below. (As you can see from that discussion, Varoon Arya and mikemikev also had some suggestions about this structure, which you might want to consider.) As Muntuwandi pointed out, since we’ve already agreed on the overall structure the article should have, the person who makes these revisions doesn’t have to be an expert, as long as they’re familiar with the source material and are able to edit the article neutrally.
- Bryan Pesta has made it clear in his discussions with me that there are a lot of things about the current article that he thinks ought to be changed, but I suspect that most of them are things that we’ve already decided should be changed during this mediation. For this reason, I think it’ll be most efficient if we go ahead and change the things that we’ve already decided to change, and then find out whether he has anything additional to suggest afterwards; rather than waiting for him to make all of his suggestions about the current article, which are likely to overlap considerably with what we’ve already decided to change about it. After David has made his initial round of revisions, a lot of users will probably have suggestions for him about additional things that they think should be changed, and that’s the point at which I think Bryan’s input will be most helpful to us.
- I consider this proposal a compromise, which takes Muntuwandi’s concerns into consideration, while also not ignoring the fact that the article is tagged as needing the attention of an expert. Does this plan sound like a good idea? --Captain Occam (talk) 05:35, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, there hasn't been any mediation resolution on the eventual structure. Personally, I'm more concerned about content than I am about structure, but I just wanted to make sure that it's clear that that aspect of the article hasn't made it through mediation yet. A.Prock 05:52, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
- I don’t think you should be so particular about whether Ludwig has officially closed a discussion and stated its conclusion. In the case of the structure discussion, he might as well have done so, since it’s pretty clear by this point that nobody else has anything to say in it. Although there were some users who had suggestions about the structure, particularly mikemikev, all of them are minor enough that I don’t think we need to work them out before we begin editing.
- Apparently Ludwig doesn’t think so either, since according to him we’re ready to begin editing. That means the structure is as resolved as it needs to be in order for us to do that. --Captain Occam (talk) 06:10, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not trying to make a mountain out of a molehill, I was just clarifying the actual facts. And to clarify once more, resolved enough is not the same thing as fully resolved. There may well be issues about the structure that come up once we start editing. A.Prock 16:17, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
straw poll on current single-editor idea
ok, so let me see if I understand the current idea: David.Kane will be the one revising the article, with input from Brian Pesta as a technical adviser? It is assumed that (a) David will do his best to write from NPOV, and (b) that he will pay attention to comments and considerations that other mediation-bound editors have made here and will make on the article talk page. I'll help Brian out with the wikipedia fine points as needed, and I'll moderate the talk page discussion. I also think we should do this first revision quickly - david, do you think you can dedicate a couple of days to just buckle down and edit? The longer we draws out the editing process, the more chance there is that outside editors will show up and start making other changes, and the more chance there is that we'll get bogged down in nit-picky details. Think of this first draft as shaping the forest- we can get to pruning the trees after it's done. {{tick}} or {{cross}} your support/problems. --Ludwigs2 17:52, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not going to oppose this, but I also can't support it. I don't think the single-editor should be bogged down by having to listen to every minor nitpick that every mediation member might have. As I've said before, we should name a small set of primary feedback editors to keep the single writer more on track. A.Prock 18:47, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
- so you're ok with david, but worried about the unconstrained feedback thing? or am I misunderstanding you? --Ludwigs2 19:12, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
- Something more akin to the later. But there is also a balance issue in terms of those actively involved in the initial draft. Right now, the primary drafters you listed are David, yourself, and the fellow that Occam found. Unless there is direct input from someone on the other side of mediation, it's hard to see how the draft is going to be successful. A.Prock 19:22, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
- so you're ok with david, but worried about the unconstrained feedback thing? or am I misunderstanding you? --Ludwigs2 19:12, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not expecting the draft to be perfect; I'm just expecting it to be a starting point for further revisions. that being said, what would you suggest as a better approach? --Ludwigs2 19:30, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
- I think a single writer working conjunction with two or three interested editors is the way to go. This allows balance in terms of points of view, as well as less wrangling over minutiae. A.Prock 20:56, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
- “Unless there is direct input from someone on the other side of mediation, it's hard to see how the draft is going to be successful.”
- I don’t think of Bryan Pesta as being on either “side” in the debate over this topic, and I don’t know what you think I’ve said to imply that he is. He has basically the same opinion about it that the APA does: that the cause of the IQ difference has not been identified, because no currently existing explanation for it (either genetic or environmental) is adequate.
- Something else I should mention here is that although Bryan has agreed to help us with this article, I’m not sure how much time he’ll have to devote to it, or how long it’ll be before he can start participating actively here. I suspect he’ll have more time for it than DJ and Varoon Arya currently do, but he also has a family, courses to teach (he’s a college professor) and research papers about this topic to write. One of the factors that influenced my suggestion was that I’d like it to be possible for us to continue making progress with this article even before he starts helping us, which would be a lot more difficult if we decide we need his input before we can make any revisions to the article.
- By the way, Ludwig: you might want to contact David.Kane and tell him know what we’re discussing here, since he probably ought to offer his input about it, and we’ll obviously also need his involvement when it’s time to begin editing. --Captain Occam (talk) 05:05, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
- I can devote two full days to this sometime in the next week. Tuesday and Wednesday, perhaps? After next week, I am away for a week. Once I get the go-ahead from Ludwig, I will dive in. My one request is that we reach some sort of consensus that, unless the final product is completely unacceptable, that this new version of the article will be the default one going forward. It would, obviously, be quite annoying (to me) to devote two days of my life to something and then have a single editor say, "I don't accept this, so we must revert back to the version of March 1, 2010." Needless to say, once I am done, any editor may change any aspect of the article as he sees fit. I would just like to reach consensus ahead of time that this new version will be the default from which future edits/discussions commence. David.Kane (talk) 14:44, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
- If you want that sort of reassurance, I suggest working with the current outline. The outline described in "eventual page structure" is highly skewed towards the hereditarian hypothesis. A.Prock 15:39, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
- You mean we haven't even reached consensus on the outline? In that case, there is no point in starting to write. My suggestion: We all work with the moderator to reach consensus on the outline. A.Prock: What specific changes would you like to see? (Recommend that we start a new section on that topic.) David.Kane (talk) 16:20, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with A.Prock. I have no objection to David Kane working on putting it all together but I agree with comments above that this should be in consultation with a few other well-informed and inolved editors. David, if you do this in consulation with A.Prock, Wobble, and Aryaman, I will accept what you come up with. Someone took issue with my nominating Wobble, Muntuwadi would be acceptable to me. My point is really that anything that David, A.Proch, Aryaman and Muntuwandi agree to, I will accept, no bitching. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:09, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
- My position is symmetrical. If A.Prock, Wobble, DJ, Aryman or anyone else in involved in this mediation would like to work with that outline as the primary editor, then excellent! They have my full support. I promise that I will take whatever they produce as the default for all future edits. If I am the primary editor, then I would like the same assurance from others (or at least the mediator.) If folks are unwilling to do so, then one would have to be, uh quite generous to spend two days of one's life on a project that might never be used. By the way, do we have differing definitions of "in consultation with?" Mine (and it applies whether or not I am the primary editor) is that you read and consider, in good faith, the comments made by other authors. But you are not required to make every change they demand. David.Kane (talk) 16:20, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
- I believe there are still a few outstanding issues that need to be resolved before writing commences. I agree with A.Prock, that the proposed structure is biased towards the hereditarian position. There are just a few comments in that section, so it seems that the proposed structure hasn't been thoroughly debated yet. Wapondaponda (talk) 16:28, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
- Alright, let's try this then:
- David.Kane will take the lead on doing the primary revisions, over a two day period next week
- He will do this in consultation with A.Prock, Wobble, Aryaman, and (possibly?) Brian Pesta.
- All other editors should step back, and if they need to comment should do so through me through me by leaving a message on my talk page or in this mediation page
- We should take the time between now and next tuesday to revise the outline, keeping in mind that (a) it doesn't need to be perfect, and (b) we will have the opportunity for further tweaking after the primary draft is done
- does that sound workable? --Ludwigs2 17:50, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
- Alright, let's try this then:
- I believe there are still a few outstanding issues that need to be resolved before writing commences. I agree with A.Prock, that the proposed structure is biased towards the hereditarian position. There are just a few comments in that section, so it seems that the proposed structure hasn't been thoroughly debated yet. Wapondaponda (talk) 16:28, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
- My position is symmetrical. If A.Prock, Wobble, DJ, Aryman or anyone else in involved in this mediation would like to work with that outline as the primary editor, then excellent! They have my full support. I promise that I will take whatever they produce as the default for all future edits. If I am the primary editor, then I would like the same assurance from others (or at least the mediator.) If folks are unwilling to do so, then one would have to be, uh quite generous to spend two days of one's life on a project that might never be used. By the way, do we have differing definitions of "in consultation with?" Mine (and it applies whether or not I am the primary editor) is that you read and consider, in good faith, the comments made by other authors. But you are not required to make every change they demand. David.Kane (talk) 16:20, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
- That sounds reasonable, although I’d like to be one of the editors who advises David.Kane about this also.
- It’s Tuesday now, and we need to remember that David.Kane said that he would only be available for a limited time this week, and that after that he would be away. So if we don’t get started with revising the article, we’re going to miss our opportunity for him to do that. --Captain Occam (talk) 17:53, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Eventual page structure
At Ludwig’s suggestion, I’ve gone ahead with my proposal now. Something I’d like everyone to keep in mind about this is that I came up with almost none of this myself. Since the data-centric approach was DJ’s idea, and the current assumption (which may change, but it’s what’s been discussed so far) is that DJ will be writing the final version of the article, the structure I’ve come up with is based almost entirely on the proposals that DJ has made already.
Most of the structure is based on the article structure that DJ came up with in December, during the time when the article briefly existed under the name Between-group differences in IQ, and which existed under the article’s current name until Ramdrake reverted it back two months on January 22nd. The new items I’ve added are the ones that DJ proposed in his opening statement, which is where he originally suggested the idea of the article using a data-centric approach.
The only thing I’ve added here that was my own idea, rather than DJ’s, is the idea of dividing the data between “factors potentially affecting group IQ” and “data and interpretations”. I think this is a natural division for it to have: the first category is factors which have been proposed to account for the IQ difference, and the question is whether they do or not; in other words hypotheses about this that have been proposed and then are tested. The “data and interpretations” section is for information that goes in the opposite direction: starting with specific lines of data, and then proposing explanations for them.
There are some items where I’m not completely sure which section they belong in, particularly “evolutionary scenarios.” According to DJ’s opening statement (which he posted in November), this was discussed in the January issue of PAID, and I’m assuming he meant the January 2009 issue because at that point the January 2010 issue hadn’t been published yet. I’ve looked through the January 2009 issue, though, and can’t easily tell what it is that he was referring to there. So depending on what this is, it’s possible that it’s something which belongs in the “factors potentially affecting group IQ” section.
I think it would be useful if DJ could give us his input about this, especially since some of us are hoping that he’ll be the one to eventually write the article. He hasn’t been active on Wikipedia in around two weeks; does anyone know how to get in contact with him? --Captain Occam (talk) 07:29, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- Firstly, I'd like to say that the structure plan is, in my opinion, an improvement, and I support immediate implementation. I can see this getting messy, and why having an elected single editor would be a very good idea. My first proposal is to change "Black and biracial children raised by white parents" to "Trans-racial adoption studies". mikemikev (talk) 12:24, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- One of the things I'd like the article to address very early is how the primary data is gathered (e.g. which tests are administered, what things those tests measure) and what techniques are used for manipulating that data (e.g. regression, correction, etc.). This should, in my opinion, happen prior to the presentation of the test score results themselves. It needn't be much, but should certainly contain links to the main articles, such as Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale. --Aryaman (talk) 12:36, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- Are you suggesting the outline ought to be modified, VA? It’s all right with me if you want to try modifying it yourself. Since you’re the one who originally proposed that DJ should write the finished article, I know you approve of most of the changes / proposals he’s made. So if you’re going to edit the outline, I trust you to do it in a way that won’t go against the type of structure that DJ would approve of. --Captain Occam (talk) 13:11, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
It seems that we should specifically have sections early in the article which address the most contentious topics that we've seen in moderation. Specifically, a discussion of sociological race versus genetic race, and a discussion of exactly what the mainstream consensus is at this point in time. A.Prock 17:20, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
A suggestion. let's make specific requests for change using {{Question-icon}} as follows:
move section X before section Y and demote Y for a subsection.
then, if there are no objections raised we can edit the change in. this should separate specific requests from the surrounding commentary. I trust that we can let anyone edit the list for now; if there's anything contentious, ask Captain Occam or myself to edit in.
I'll leave a note for DJ telling him his attention is requested. --Ludwigs2 19:15, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- The outline looks good. Unfortunately, I can't commit to the time required to be a dependable contributor. Perhaps Aryaman would be a better choice for that role. --DJ (talk) 06:38, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
- Even if you don't think you'll be able to write the new version of the article yourself, could you please explain what you meant by "evolutionary scenarios" described by the January issue of PAID, when you were giving your original explanation of what topics you thought the data-centric approach should cover? I don't even know for sure whether you meant the January 2009 or January 2010 issue, and I definitely don't know which specific paper or papers you were referring to. --Captain Occam (talk) 10:08, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
- Volume 48, Issue 2 of PAID included 5 articles in a section titled "National IQs and evolutionary theories of intelligence: a discussion". Here are the articles:
- Jelte M. Wicherts, Denny Borsboom, Conor V. Dolan, Why national IQs do not support evolutionary theories of intelligence, Personality and Individual Differences, Volume 48, Issue 2, January 2010, Pages 91-96, ISSN 0191-8869, DOI: 10.1016/j.paid.2009.05.028.
- J. Philippe Rushton, Brain size as an explanation of national differences in IQ, longevity, and other life-history variables, Personality and Individual Differences, Volume 48, Issue 2, January 2010, Pages 97-99, ISSN 0191-8869, DOI: 10.1016/j.paid.2009.07.029.
- Richard Lynn, Consistency of race differences in intelligence over millennia: A comment on Wicherts, Borsboom and Dolan, Personality and Individual Differences, Volume 48, Issue 2, January 2010, Pages 100-101, ISSN 0191-8869, DOI: 10.1016/j.paid.2009.09.007.
- Donald I. Templer, Can't see the forest because of the trees, Personality and Individual Differences, Volume 48, Issue 2, January 2010, Pages 102-103, ISSN 0191-8869, DOI: 10.1016/j.paid.2009.08.011.
- Jelte M. Wicherts, Denny Borsboom, Conor V. Dolan, Evolution, brain size, and the national IQ of peoples around 3000 years B.C, Personality and Individual Differences, Volume 48, Issue 2, January 2010, Pages 104-106, ISSN 0191-8869, DOI: 10.1016/j.paid.2009.08.020.
- This is perhaps the most controversial of the most controversial. I would have even suggested dropping that section from the outline, but this blast of papers makes that difficult to justify. --DJ (talk) 19:26, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
- Volume 48, Issue 2 of PAID included 5 articles in a section titled "National IQs and evolutionary theories of intelligence: a discussion". Here are the articles:
- Thanks. I see now why I was confused: in November of last year, I wasn’t aware that papers in the January 2010 issue were accessible anywhere yet. So I was looking for the papers about this in the January 2009 issue, and couldn’t figure out what it was that you were referring to there.
- Incidentally, I agree with you about these papers needing to be covered in the article. Especially now that we’re going with a data-centric approach, we can’t exclude material that’s been published in a reliable source (which PAID definitely is) just because of the fact that it’s controversial. --Captain Occam (talk) 19:40, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
- Move "Factors potentially affecting group IQ" immediately after "Data and interpretations".
- do you mean the section and all of its subsections as a unit? just asking in the spirit of clarification..--Ludwigs2 18:47, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
- Include "Test score differences" as the first subsection in "Data and interpretations".
- Change "Black and biracial children raised by white parents" to "Trans-racial adoption studies".
mikemikev (talk) 15:31, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
- I think I’d prefer to defer to Varoon Arya when it comes to making changes like this to the outline. Now that DJ has let us know that he won’t have the time to write the new version of the article, it looks like the new version is most likely going to be written by VA, since everyone who’s expressed an opinion about who should write it gave him as their top choice other than DJ for this. And since VA will probably be the one writing the article, I think it makes most sense for him to be the one making decisions like this about its structure. --Captain Occam (talk) 18:09, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Reviewing the outline, it is currently far skewed toward the hereditarian hypothesis. A.Prock 15:57, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
- The outline should follow logically from the subject. This article is (tentatively) titled "Race and intelligence". This is a short-hand way of saying the article is about "the correlation between race and intelligence". Now, given that subject, our article should answer several key questions, namely:
- What are meant by the terms "race" and "intelligence" in this particular context?
- What is the primary ("trigger") correlation between "race" and "intelligence"?
- What studies have been conducted on this correlation?
- What theories have been proposed to explain this correlation?
- What does the scientific community agree has been learned thus far? What remains uncertain?
- Before getting into the nuts and bolts of an outline, can we agree that these are the points this article needs to cover? --Aryaman (talk) 17:39, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
- It really comes down to the amount of detail that goes into the "what studies" and "what theories" sections. This isn't meant to be a review article, but an encyclopedic article. I don't think the bulk of the article should be spent on summarizing research data, especially contemporary research which is still being done. That said, I certainly think there is a lot of room for highlighting ongoing research efforts (specifically Jenson and Rushton). I'm just a bit wary of the monolithic wall of charts approach, specifically because it tends to create more noise than signal, and lends itself to quote mining. A.Prock 20:16, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
- “I don't think the bulk of the article should be spent on summarizing research data, especially contemporary research which is still being done”
- Aprock, the current assumption here is that we’ll be using a data-centric approach. Users on both sides of the debate here have agreed about this, and Ludwig has stated that we shouldn’t try to second-guess this decision until after we’ve at least written the first draft of the revision. And if we’re going to use a data-centric approach, that means these individual lines of data need to be discussed. As I said before, each of these lines of data are also discussed by authors on both sides of the debate about this topic, so for us to discuss them in the article is not specifically supporting one side or the other.
- It sounds like what you really have a problem with here is just the idea of using a data-centric approach in general. But according to what Ludwig has said about this, it isn’t the time or the place to try and rethink that decision right now. --Captain Occam (talk) 20:41, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
- Occam wp:AGF please - I don't think that's what A.Prock was saying at all. I tend to agree with him that the amount of detail on any particular point should be in balance with the prominence of that point, so even using the data-centric approach we are going to need to be restrained in our use of the available data. Please keep in mind that we are not arguing the issue ourselves here, just presenting the arguments that appear in the literature in some semblance of balance. --Ludwigs2 21:21, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps I misinterpreted what Aprock meant, but when I put his comment that I quoted together with his earlier comment about how he thinks this outline is skewed towards the hereditarian hypothesis, I read that as meaning that he thinks the article shouldn’t be covering data such as brain size, reaction time, or regression among siblings. (I’m assuming this data is what he meant by “contemporary research which is still being done”, and that its inclusion is why he thinks the outline is slanted towards the hereditarian viewpoint.) But if we’re going to use a data-centric approach, then describing this data as neutrally as possible is exactly what we need to do, since these lines of data are fairly prominent in the literature on both sides in this debate.
- Aprock, if what you meant is something other than this, can you please explain in what way you think the outline is slanted in favor of the hereditarian view? And within the framework of the data-centric approach and its requirements, can you make any suggestions about what specific things about the outline ought to be changed? --Captain Occam (talk) 21:57, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
- The problem isn't the particulars of included research, it's the relative weight and the total amount. I wouldn't suggest that any specific study area be excluded, but I would suggest limiting the number of study areas to a manageable number, and making sure that such presentations are do not overweight hereditarian research. A.Prock 22:35, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
- In most cases, research isn’t specifically “hereditarian” or “environmentalist”. If you look at most of the most commonly-cited raw data about this topic, it’s gathered by people who weren’t specifically trying to support one hypothesis or the other; they were just trying to gather more information about the topic in general. It’s usually only after the studies are completed that proponents of either theory write about how they think the results support their viewpoint, and for most data this is done by people on both sides of the debate.
- Describing each line of data in proportion to its prominence in the source literature is fine, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with my current version of the outline in this regard. (Keep in mind that in the actual article, these sections will not have to all be the same length.) If you have a problem with the current outline, can you please make a specific suggestion about what you think should be changed about it? I think it’s fine the way it is, and I also don’t really understand what sort of change would be necessary in order to satisfy you. --Captain Occam (talk) 23:10, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
- The scientific conclusions are the signal. A.Prock 01:07, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
- to clarify: it is possible for people to write gobs of material on not-very-significant points, and make reams of research debating minor disagreements. we need to balance the material according to the significance of the subject, and not necessarily according to the mere quantity of material in the literature. --Ludwigs2 01:56, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
- Aprock, you haven’t answered my question about what specific things you think should be changed about the outline. I guess your comment above answers it indirectly, though: if you think of the data as the “noise” and the conclusions as what’s relevant, then it looks like your issue here is that you think the data should be de-emphasized in favor of the conclusions that have been drawn from it. If this is how you feel, then it really is the data-centric approach that you’re having a problem with here, since the central idea of the data-centric approach is that the article would be focusing on the data rather than the conclusions.
- Are there any changes that you (or Muntuwandi) want to suggest for the outline that don’t go against any of the basic premises of the data-centric approach? If there are, then I’m open to them, but this isn’t the appropriate place for us to be discussing your problems with the data-centric approach in general. --Captain Occam (talk) 07:28, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
- I don't have a problem with data. In fact, I love data, I spend most of my days generating and analyzing data. But unless you are the one doing the research, data is only useful as an illustration, not as a message. The basic problem with promoting data to the level of primary content is that it discounts the more valuable work of the scientists who developed and interpreted the data. There's also the problem of there being more data than can be presented in an encyclopedic article. Look at any review article, and you'll see that it's length is far too long for wikipedia. At a fundamental level, we are going to have to make decisions about what to include (and exclude) in this article. Those decisions should be made based on our current scientific understanding. I don't have specific suggestions about what to change because it really depends on what gets written and how much time is spent on what. In fact, I'd be happy to see references to all the entries in the outline. But a full blown summary of each of the dozen or so research areas goes well beyond what this article needs to be about. A.Prock 07:50, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
- While I think I understand your point, I don’t see how any of what you’re saying is specific enough for us to come up with specific revisions to the overview based on it, or even whether revising it based on what you’re saying should be necessary at all. As I said before, not all of these lines of data will need to be covered in-depth. For example, the current article only devotes around five sentences to socioeconomic status as a possible explanation for the IQ difference, since the APA rejects that as an explanation for it. It seems like the only necessary course of action based on what you’re saying is to make sure none of these lines of data are described in more detail than their respective importance. And we don’t need to change the outline for that; that’s something we can discuss with David.Kane when he’s doing the actual editing.
- That is, unless you’re arguing that some of these lines of data ought to be left out entirely. If that’s what you’re saying, then I don’t agree with it, and I think it’s also getting into rejecting aspects of the data-centric structure in general. Remember, all of these lines of data were specifically listed in DJ’s original proposal, and as a result they’re what we’ve had in mind the whole time we’ve been discussing the data-centric approach. I also think that all of these lines of data receive enough attention in the academic literature about this topic (from both sides of the debate about it) that if we’re going to use a data-centric approach, NPOV policy will demand that we cover all of them in at least some capacity.
- Will you be okay with providing at least a bare minimum of coverage to all of these lines of data, and discussing with David.Kane about how much space should be given to each of them? Consiering the concerns you’ve raised, I think that’s what makes the most sense here. --Captain Occam (talk) 08:43, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
- Captain Occam writes, "For example, the current article only devotes around five sentences to socioeconomic status as a possible explanation for the IQ difference, since the APA rejects that as an explanation for it." This seems disingenuous. The APA report itself states that it is clear that the average differences between groups are well within the range suggested by environmental factors (page 94). It ultimately rejects SES not because it is rejecting sociological or environmntal explanations as such; it is criticizing current SES measures for failing to "adequately describe the situation of African Americans." (page 94) in other words, typical income- and education-based measures of "SES" fail to measure the social and environmental factors that might explain differences between avereage black and average white scores. The APA report also devotes considerably less attention to the "hereditarian hypothesis." That is because the APA statement concludes that "there is not much direct evidence on this point, but what little there is fails to support the genetic hypothesis" (page 95)[2]. Please do not accuse me of misrepresenting the APA report. The APA report states that a portion of intelligence in any human being is due to genes, and that a portion of difference between two individuals of the same population is due to genetics; this is established pretty solidly. But when it comes to explaining average IQ difference between groups which is the topic at hand, it devotes far more space to environmental and social views, and criticizes SES for being too narrow. The APA tratement of environmental factors is quantitatively different from its treatment of the hereditarian hypothesis, which is given considerably less space. It's treatment is qualitatively different, because when it comes to genetic influence it simply provides the same conclusion one will find to any scientific report, whcih is, new research can always force us to change our views. But when it comes to social and environmental evidence, it actually has several paragraphs on factors that researchers have not yet investigatd, or that are real but hard to measure, but which should be considered in an account of group differences. Captai Occam, if you are saying that we should more or less follow the APA in its treatment of these two approaches, I do not object. Just represent the APA report accrately. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:55, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
- A.Proxk writes, "But unless you are the one doing the research, data is only useful as an illustration, not as a message." I agree fully, and this illustrates why I think it is so important for someone who really understands science, like A.Prock, or Wobble or Muntuwandi, to be involved in drafting the new article (even if as A.Prock wrote, they are not available full time and perhaps must act more as consultants or revising parts of it). I have no problem with opening the article with data, IF we have data that all major scientists of all major views are trying to interpret. In this sense I can see a data-driven version of the article saying, Here is the data, scientists have raised x different questions about it and there are currently y different interpetations. If we can do that, great! But if the major points of view in the scientific community are not working with the same data, it will get pretty complicated. And it is a mistake that we can just start with the data. As any researcher knows, any research generates a great deal of what A.Prock calls "noise" and scientists spend a fair amount of time figuring out how to eliminate noise (sometimes through fundaentally random means). Simply to present raw data here not only deprecates the work of scientists, as A.Prock says, it also invites violations of WP:NOR by inviting all editors to cme up with their own explanations. And as the APA statemtne shows - in is review of different explanations - to explain the difference people have drawn on all sorts of other bodies of evidence, i.e. data. Where would we stop? I support a datacetric approach only to the extent that opening with uncontested data and then explainin what kind os fquestions scientists have raised about this data, what it considers important questions and what not, might be a more effective introuction that the traitional, "here are the different points of view and their evidence" i.e. introducing new evidence as different researchers voice their opinion. That approach may be too confusing to readers. But I repeat, beginning iwth data works, only if it is data that all significant views from no9table sources agree on is important data. We might need a separate article, debates on what constitutes relevant data (I am very serious, this is why I have suported using this as a disambig. page from the start). Slrubenstein | Talk 20:09, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
- "someone who really understands science, like A.Prock, or Wobble or Muntuwandi, to be involved in drafting the new article" --- I agree that any of these three would be fine primary editors. But, unless, I am mistaken, none has volunteered to do so. Slrubenstein (or anyone else): Any objects to me as primary editor? David.Kane (talk) 03:03, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- I have no objections to you as primary editor. And I'd be happy to review any initial draft you wrote in detail. A.Prock 15:55, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- "someone who really understands science, like A.Prock, or Wobble or Muntuwandi, to be involved in drafting the new article" --- I agree that any of these three would be fine primary editors. But, unless, I am mistaken, none has volunteered to do so. Slrubenstein (or anyone else): Any objects to me as primary editor? David.Kane (talk) 03:03, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Sorry for being MIA. I'm afraid that will continue for some time. Let me reiterate what I originally meant by a data-centric approach. First, what it is not -- It is in contrast to an explanation-centric approach. The point of a data-centric approach is not to alter the scope of the article or the level of detail given. It is not an invitation to conduct original research or synthesis -- the point is still to explain what the relevant published views are. This isn't a major departure from standard practice and policy. Second, what I meant -- Primarily the idea is that the subheadings of the relevant section of the article should be kinds of data/experiments (e.g. admixture studies, Flynn effect). The results of these studies should be presented in whatever details is appropriate -- less is better I would think. The major interpretations of the data should be given -- attributed as appropriate. All relevant views about how to interpret the data should be given in the same subsection. The state of the science being what it is, there is always going to be at least two notable opinions about how to interpret a study. Third, why this is useful -- The goal is to provide an organizational structure that is more easily made compliant with NPOV. An explanation-centric approach would be worse... if the major opinion in the field is that no one knows what causes IQ differences then there's no reason to try to write an article that is structured around contrasting extreme poles of opinion about what the cause really is. The data-centric approach will make the source of the uncertainty clearer. It should also be most sustainable because there will be less temptation to add one more detail pro or con a particular interpretation if the organization isn't structured around explanations themselves. --DJ (talk) 02:49, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
page structure - convenience break
This is my suggestion for the basic structure of the article
- Lead-intro
- Overview
- Race-brief discussion
- Intelligence - brief discussion
- Test data - Description of variation in test scores
- Causes-causes of test score differences
- Environmental-discussion and criticism
- Genetic- discussion and criticism.
- Environmental and Genetic
- Unknown
- Ethical issues- ethics and policy issues
These sections are what I believe are the core issues in this controversy. To make the article easier to read, I suggest that like material should be placed together when possible. The current proposal has genetic and environmental arguments sprinkled all over the article. Maybe it would be better if genetic arguments were concentrated in one section and the same for environmental arguments. This would help us to address the how much weight to allocate each hypothesis.
At present, I do not have much time for editing, but I am available to give opinions on any proposed content. Wapondaponda (talk) 05:39, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- By "each hypothesis", I assume the "environmental hypothesis" and the "hereditarian hypothesis" are being referred to. I think it's been made sufficiently clear during this mediation that identifying environmental factors does not equal support of the environmental hypothesis. This has been one of the rubbing points in the past, and looking over Muntuwandi's outline, it threatens to remain a source of confusion and/or conflict in the future. There are several environmental (social and biological) factors which everyone agrees have the potential to impact the development of intelligence, and these deserve to be listed independently of and prior to either of the two hypotheses, as they are supported by experts on both sides of the ideological divide. The divisive question is whether these known factors - either in isolation or accumulatively - account for all of the difference in test scores between racial groups, with "environmentalists" arguing that they do, and "hereditarians" arguing that they don't. In short, there needs to be a clear distinction made between acknowledged environmental factors and the claim that all of the differences in IQ can be explained by recourse to environmental factors alone. If Muntuwandi could work that into his outline, we might make some progress. --Aryaman (talk) 06:17, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- Muntuwandi, your proposal is even further from a data-centric approach than what the article currently has. Do you understand what we’ve been discussing about this for the past two months? The point is that rather than structuring the article based on explanations for the IQ difference, and arguments for and against each position, we’ll be focusing on the various lines of data which could be interpreted either way.
- Almost everything in the current proposal falls into that category. Things like regression among siblings, trans-racial adoption studies, the Flynn effect and qualify of education aren’t “arguments”; they’re just data that people taking either position have to work with. The data is frequently used in arguments for one viewpoint or the other, but more often than not these lines of data are incorporated by different people into arguments for both positions.
- The point of this discussion is to make suggestions about how to best structure an article that takes a data-centric approach. Arguing against the data-centric approach in general, which is basically what you’re doing by saying that you think the article should be broken down into “genetic arguments” and “environmental arguments”, is not what this discussion is supposed to be about.
- As you are aware, I have not supported the data-centric approach. This does not mean that I do not support the inclusion and analysis of data in the article. Because of the nature of the controversy, certain sections or subsections have to be data-centric, and this is already the case with the current article. However, I don't see the need for all the content to be restricted to only raw data and its analysis. If there is other material that is not "data-centric" but is central to the debate, then it ought to be included. I believe Ludwigs suggested that the process begin with a data-centric approach, not because there was a consensus, but rather just to get the process underway. My position is that I am satisfied with the pre-dispute/mediation version and I have reservations about a "data-centric" model because the data may be skewed in one direction. Mainstream science has not put its full weight behind proactively investigating the RI controversy. So the data tends to be one-sided or refutations. Nonetheless one should not dislike something that they haven't seen yet, so I am open to a different version.
- The problem with the current proposal, is that there is no section that is explicitly devoted to discussing each of the causal theories. If someone wants to find a summary of the genetic or environmental hypotheses, they should be able to find them without necessarily having to read through all the "noise". I have concerns about some of the subsections in the current proposal, I don't know what data exists for evolutionary models. Most evolutionary models are quite speculative since there were no IQ tests before the 20th century.
- As for Varoon's concerns, I agree that there is a spectrum of views ranging from entirely genetic to entirely environmental. Arthur Jensen has supported the view that the B/W gap is 50% genetic and 50% environmental. This would be covered in the genetic and environment hypothesis. However, the "genetic and environmental hypothesis" is usually referred to as the "genetic hypothesis" because it has a genetic component, which is the most controversial element of this controversy. As long as this is clarified, I don't see the suggestion being a source of confusion. Wapondaponda (talk) 11:52, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- The potential for confusion arises when research identifying particular environmental factors is presented as implicitly supporting the 100% environmental thesis and/or contradicting the hereditarian hypothesis. The same kind of confusion would arise if we were to present research identifying a particular heritable factor as implicitly supporting the 100% genetic thesis. As far as I can tell, both the 100% environmental thesis and the 100% genetic thesis are equally outside the mainstream. At the time of the Snyderman and Rothman study, they were clearly minority views, with the majority either holding to some mixture, with Jensen being the most vocal proponent of ca. 50/50, or remaining safely agnostic. With the amount of criticism directed at Jensen & Co., the majority appears to have tipped in favor of agnosticism.
- I can only account for the fact that the editorial body involved in this article is so polarized by appealing to the failure of the article to distinguish between (a) the 100% genetic thesis (very minority and probably "fringe"), (b) the 50%/50% environmental/hereditarian thesis, (c) the 100% environmental thesis, and (d) the agnostic "We don't know" view (probably the dominant view today). In a normal universe, the majority of the editors involved here would hold to the agnostic view while acknowledging the strengths and weaknesses of the 50%/50% thesis. As it stands, it appears that those naturally inclined towards "We don't know" feel forced to enter the fray in defence of one of the more extreme views, which of course leads to a great deal of unnecessary bickering. --Aryaman (talk) 13:33, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- I think the real problem is reducing positions to "two" (environmental versus hereditarian), This "point - counter point" structure is congenial to TV news shows and to politics, but does not represent how sciences works. There is no hereditarian hypothesis and there is not environmental hypothesis - I mean really, has anyone come up with a testable hypotheses? These are arguments, not hypotheses, and I know of only a few scholars who promote them. In academe, we look at a host of different causes. Genetics might be one of them. Or it may turnout to be that there will be five or six genetic hypotheses, depending on how many locationson the genome scientists have cause to think influences brain development and function. I reread the APA statement and it is organized by specifying a range of different possible causes. I think this makes sense and is how we should organize this. First, we have data, then a rang of possible explanations for the data. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:17, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- I would just like to echo what Slrubenstein and Aryaman are saying here. Part of the problem is the old saw, "there are two kinds of people, those who think there are two kinds of people and those who don't". Likewise, there are two sides of the R/I debate, those who think there are two sides, and those who don't. A lot of the env. vs. genes stuff is a construct about which the debate occurs, mostly because vociferous agreement isn't a natural form of debate. A.Prock 18:07, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and modified the outline to try to capture the discussion that's going on here - I think the two points of view are integrable. everything above the dividing line is the revised outline; material below the line is old points that should be integrated into the above portion (or discarded).
hopefully I didn't screw things up worse with this. comments? --Ludwigs2 07:32, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- I think that creating a division between “research pertaining to EM” and “research pertaining to HM” is too explanation-centric. Part of the idea of the data-centric approach is that all research on this topic is equally relevant to both hypotheses, because any valid explanation for the IQ difference will have to account for all of the data. This division is also likely to lead to arguments over how long these sections should be in comparison to one another, when one of the main purposes of using a data-centric approach was to avoid that issue.
- I also approved of Varoon Arya’s suggestion to include a section about factors known to influence variation in IQ between individuals. The crux of the debate about race and intelligence is over how similar or different the cause of between-group IQ differences is from the cause of within-group IQ differences, so in order to present this topic in as informative a way as possible, I think it should explain the cause of within-group IQ differences also. --Captain Occam (talk) 10:15, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- Of course you are right Occam. I can't believe what I'm seeing here. Slrubenstein, Muntuwandi and Aprock are arguing that environemental/hereditarian is largely a false dichotomy, and I agree. This is why we are switching to a data-centric model. But then, Muntuwandi proposes a hereditarian/environmental causes model, and Ludwig edits it in. I'm really confused now. Is this hermeneutics? mikemikev (talk) 12:47, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- as an aside: yes, it is hermeneutics. at least, it got the discussion kick-started. I'll wait a bit and replace it with Aryaman's version below, if that seems to be more accepted. --Ludwigs2 17:18, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
I had some time so I sat down and put together a rough outline of the article as I envision it. If I were writing it, this is what I would start with and see where it goes from there. I've intentionally omitted the lead, as I like to write that last. Here's the outline with a brief description of what each section should cover.
- History
- This section should briefly describe the history of intelligence testing and how it has been applied to the issue of race. This should not attempt to be a history of the debate: that will be covered below.
- Group differences in intelligence
- The introduction to this section should discuss those factors which are generally recognized as affecting the development of intelligence in individuals and explain the concept of heritability. The general idea here is to set up the key points in the discussion of between-group comparisons. The question of suitability should also be treated here, along with an appropriate rebuttal.
- Data gathering methods
- This sub-section should discuss the kinds of tests used to measure intelligence as well as the criteria used to determine race. Any general, non-controversial shortcomings these methods have should be mentioned here.
- Intelligence test score results
- This sub-section should present the results of intelligence testing on racial groups. Intended here is preliminary, "uncontrolled" testing, i.e. not the kind that takes place in a controlled study such as the MTAS. In its final paragraph, this sub-section should also describe the so-called "Flynn effect", though discussion of potential causation should be omitted until the next sub-section.
- Variables potentially affecting intelligence in groups
- This sub-section should discuss those factors which may influence the development of intelligence in groups. Each factor, such as:
- Socio-economic status
- Quality of education
- Nutrition
- Molecular genetics
- etc.
- should be listed under its own heading, with the main studies on that factor briefly discussed along with any pertinent criticism of those studies. Notice there is no grouping into "environmental" or "hereditarian" research here - just research on factors potentially affecting the development of intelligence in groups.
- Hypotheses
- The introduction to this section should present the history of the discussion beginning with Jensen's paper in the late 60's and extend through the debates of the 90's. The key papers which emerged during this period should be briefly summarized. The purpose here is to orient the reader in the current state of the debate and to make clear that there are at least main 4 positions taken by experts.
- Environmentalism
- This sub-section should make a coherent presentation of the environmentalist argument, i.e. that all of the difference in test scores between groups can be accounted for by appealing to environmental factors alone. The key supporters, such as Nisbett and Ceci, and their arguments should be presented, and their work should be criticised where appropriate.
- Hereditarianism
- This sub-section should make a coherent presentation of the hereditarian argument, i.e. that the difference in test scores between groups is to be accounted for by a mixture of environmental and genetic factors. The key supporters, such as Jensen and Rushton, and their arguments should be presented, and their work should be criticised where appropriate.
- (The 100% genetic hypothesis is pretty fringe, and I don't know of any experts currently holding this position, thus it does not have its own section. If literature can be found on it, however, it should certainly be included.)
- Official statements
- This section should present the position taken by bodies of experts in official statements such as that of the APA and the AAA. To be fair, the paper Mainstream Science on Intelligence should also be discussed despite its not being an "official" statement, as it was signed by a rather large body of qualified experts and does not differ substantially from the APA report.
- Policy implications
- The section should discuss the socio-political ramifications of research into race and intelligence.
--Aryaman (talk) 13:06, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for posting this, VA. I think this is better than any other proposal anyone has come up with thus far, mine included. I’ve got some question about it, though.
- First of all, which of these sections would be the place for studies about specific elements of the IQ difference, such as transracial adoption, regression among siblings, and structural equation modeling? They’re definitely not “Variables potentially affecting intelligence in groups”, but we don’t seem to have a section that fits data like this more specifically. I’d also like to know where in this structure we’d be including the history of the debate, and the “significance of group IQ differences” data, since your outline isn’t clear about where either of those items would go either.
- Once these points have been clarified, I’d like it if this could be the outline that David.Kane uses as a basis for revising the article. You’re also welcome to try revising it yourself, if you end up having enough time for that. --Captain Occam (talk) 15:15, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- I thought we could discuss individual studies under the factors they attempt to isolate and evaluate. The MTAS, for example, attempted to isolate rearing conditions through transracial adoption. Thus, I would discuss the MTAS under "Rearing conditions" as a variable potentially affecting intelligence in groups. (I wouldn't put it under "Socio-economic status", as the adoptive parents were all controlled in this regard.) Of course, if the MTAS proved anything, it proved that rearing conditions within the family did not account for the racial differences in IQ in the way the environmental hypothesis assumed they would.
- Other studies would need to be evaluated in the same fashion. In other words, I wouldn't group methodically similar studies (e.g. twin studies) together unless they are also attempting to identify the same factor(s).
- I do think we should have something covering the methods used in these studies (adoption, twin studies, regression, correction, modelling, etc.), and I would put that in the first paragraphs of the "Variables" section. But, I get the feeling that you may be talking about something else entirely here. If so, please get specific about the data/studies you have in mind and I'm sure we'll find a solution.
- The "history of the debate" would serve well as an introduction to the section labelled "Hypotheses", starting with Jensen's paper and following through the Bell Curve debates of the 90's. This would help show how the Environmental and Hereditarian "positions" formed.
- As for the "Significance of group IQ differences", it's unclear to me what exactly this should entail. If it has to do with an evaluation of the statistical significance, then we could discuss it under "Intelligence test score results", after the scores but before the "Flynn effect". If it has to do with the social significance of the differences, then it could be put prior to the "Policy implications" section. If it has to do with something else entirely, then perhaps we're looking at a new sub-section. --Aryaman (talk) 16:25, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- Your idea of listing studies according to what factors they attempted to isolate sounds reasonable, but it would be helpful if you could be a little more specific how some of them should be categorized. I’m still not able to think of what factors we should list as being isolated in regression studies and structural equation models, although maybe that’s just because I’m pretty tired right now. In any case, though, it would make it easier for the rest of us if you could expand your outline a little to show how some of these things would fit into it.
- When I’m talking about when I refer to the “Significance of group IQ differences” data is this. It was one of the things DJ added when he revamped the article while it existed as “Between-group differences in IQ”, and there was also a similar section in the December 2006 version of the article. I think if we’re going to use a data-centric structure, the information discussed in this section definitely needs to be included, because it’s a pretty prominent aspect of the research about this topic, and there’s very little dispute about it from either the environmental or hereditarian perspective. It’s up to you where in the outline this ought to go. If this fits the definition of what you referred to as “social significance”, your suggestion of putting it right above the “policy implications” section sounds fine.
- By the way, can you please let us know if you eventually do have the time to revise the article yourself? I think there are more editors here who approve of you taking on this role than there are who approve of David.Kane doing it, and (as far as I know) you don’t have a time limit of the end of this week the way he does. --Captain Occam (talk) 17:49, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- Above, Aryaman writes, "As far as I can tell, both the 100% environmental thesis and the 100% genetic thesis are equally outside the mainstream." I'd like to know what the basis is for that. As far as I know there is no evidence that genes explain the difference in group averages, and given just how many categorically different things are included under the catch-all, "environment" I do not see what makes the argument that all the causes are evironmental, "extreme."
- By the way, can you please let us know if you eventually do have the time to revise the article yourself? I think there are more editors here who approve of you taking on this role than there are who approve of David.Kane doing it, and (as far as I know) you don’t have a time limit of the end of this week the way he does. --Captain Occam (talk) 17:49, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- I am still uncomfortable with a section on the hereditarian hypothesis and the genetic hpothesis as opposing one another. May I note that I am glad to see Mikemikev and myself agreeing for once. I am not sure that "environment" and "genetic" are comparable. Genes are sequences of nucleotides, that is very clear. What does "environment" mean? Whether you belong to a minority group? Whether you ate paint as a kid? Something about the fetal environment? Whether you get along with your dad? We should move away from binary oppositions.
- Besides, I am not sure what the so-called "genetic hypothesis" is, or "the environmental hypothesis" for that matter. A hypothesis is a prediction concerning something measurable in the world that can be falsifid. What exactly is the hypothesis? Can it be tested? is it falsifiable? We have been using terms that have a certain meaning in science to characterize opinion as far as I can tell and I think this is one reason we have had such intractable problems with the article. If Jensen calls his position a hypothesis we had better include his definition of "hypothesis." Slrubenstein | Talk 18:58, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry to disappoint, Varoon, but I do have some disagreements with your outline. I think everyone agrees, that except for space or limitations on article size, that a section on the history of the controversy can be included in the article. The section title "Group differences in intelligence" is POV. There are individuals who believe that groups don't really exist, or that it isn't yet possible to universally define intelligence, or that evidence for group differences is inconclusive, or that group differences don't exist. I had suggested earlier a section on "test score data", which I believe is neutral, in fact more "data-centric". Such a section can describe how test scores vary both within and between groups. This section could include information such as
- Besides, I am not sure what the so-called "genetic hypothesis" is, or "the environmental hypothesis" for that matter. A hypothesis is a prediction concerning something measurable in the world that can be falsifid. What exactly is the hypothesis? Can it be tested? is it falsifiable? We have been using terms that have a certain meaning in science to characterize opinion as far as I can tell and I think this is one reason we have had such intractable problems with the article. If Jensen calls his position a hypothesis we had better include his definition of "hypothesis." Slrubenstein | Talk 18:58, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- A full range of IQ scores, from very low to high, is typically found in any large population or sample.
- Populations differ in their mean IQ but their IQ ranges overlap significantly.
- Most variation in IQ scores is found within populations rather than between populations
- While several groups score differences can be constructed, and a few have been studied, the most contentious group score difference is the B/W gap, which translates to 1 standard deviation.
- Most, if not all the data is from the US
- Race variable is based on SIRE.
- "Data gathering methods" may be similar to a "methodology". Seeing that wikipedia readers typically want a summary, I think a full sub-section may not be required. I would therefore suggest compressing "group differences in intelligence" and "Data gathering methods" into test score data. Wapondaponda (talk) 20:13, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- let me concur with slr a bit - I think the '100%/100% are equally outside' thing is a bit overstated (though I agree that neither of them is major player in the debate at this point. and I am also confused by the terminology a bit. does heritability mean strictly genetic or does it include social heritability (e.g. early-childhood training)? does environmental exclude genetics? it would be nice to clarify this terminology, and might help the discussion advance. --Ludwigs2 19:52, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps I should have been more clear when I said environmental/hereditarian was a false dichotomy. The research is. Hereditarians start with data and reason to conclusions. Environmentalists start with conclusions and cherry pick data. The conclusions, ~50% genetic/~0% genetic are of course a real dichotomy, and can have sections in the article. It will be solved by genome studies and course they are hypotheses. VA your plan looks good. To maybe address some of CO's concerns, I think regression is isolating the factor - 'genes'. mikemikev (talk) 21:33, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think painting researchers with overly broad brushes which are clearly false really helps move the discussion forward. At some level, I think we generally have to assume good faith in them as well, unless there is strong evidence to conclude otherwise. Ludwig2 does raise good points about how easy it can be to confuse heritable and genetics. And of course, at the fundamental level, it's environment that shapes genetics, so drawing a precise line between the two can be sometimes difficult. A.Prock 08:19, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
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Occam: The section you linked to is a good one, and I would put it in the same place as it appears there, i.e. prior to the Policy Implications. As for time: I have some, but I don't want to waste it on bickering with people here. ;)
Slrubenstein: My starting point for that assumption is the Snyderman & Rothman study, in which both the 100% genetic and the 100% environmental positions were clearly minority views. Add to that the conclusions of the Mainstream article and the APA report, and I think it's pretty clear that neither of those views are dominant. As I've said several times, I think the mainstream view is agnosticism.
Regarding your being "uncomfortable": Hereditarianism (ca. 50% environment and 50% genes) and the genetic hypothesis (100% genes) are simply not the same thing. Environmentalism is the belief that all of the differences in IQ between races can be explained by recourse to differences in environmental factors alone. Most if not all experts would agree without hesitation that environmental factors play a large role here. But how many are willing to stick their necks out and say categorically that genes play no role at all? Knowing what we do about the development of intelligence in individuals, i.e. that both the environment and genes are important, assuming that this is not the case simply because we're comparing people of different races runs contrary to common sense and would require some exceptionally good evidence. (This is the basis of the so-called "default hypothesis".) On the other hand, while hereditarianism fits well with what we know about the development of intelligence in individuals, it can't be proven (yet). And that leads us to agnosticism pending further research - the least offensive and most defensible position.
Muntuwandi: As I said to Occam, I did not eliminate the "History of the controversy" material, I just moved it to the intro of the hypotheses section. As for your objection regarding the title "Group differences in intelligence" as being "POV": I have a hard time taking this seriously. Your objection amounts to saying "The article title Nativity of Christ is POV because there are individuals who deny the existence of a historical Jesus". As for the rest, I concur with Mike.
Ludwigs: See my comments to Slrubenstein above. Environmentalism denies any genetic contribution to between-group differences in IQ. Hereditarianism grants some genetic contribution, with the proportion of environment/genetics being variable. The 100% genetic hypothesis denies any environmental contribution. "Environmental" factors are generally broken down into "social" factors (e.g. SES) and "biological" factors (e.g. lead poisoning). Of course, some environmental factors can be "heritable", which is why research is conducted to isolate and control for such factors. --Aryaman (talk) 16:02, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- Not surprised, Mike, Occam and Varoon never disagree. Due to reasons stated above, I don't support Varoon's outline. Will have to wait for what others think, regarding the next step. Wapondaponda (talk) 16:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
A couple of notes about VA's outline.
- The history section has to be somewhere. Personally, I'm fine with forking off a different article and summarizing here. Is there any support for that idea?
- The official statement should be one of the first things, not one of the last things. And since there is no governing body, it should probably be called something like "current scientific consensus".
- It's not clear to me how the "Group differences in intelligence" section and the "Hypotheses" section are different. It looks like there are some difficult decisions to be made about what non-SIRE results to include. For example, we know that intelligence is a heritable trait, but we don't really know how much of that is due to genetics.
- I'm not sure that a "policy implications" section needs to be included at all. It seems like discussion of that might fit in the history section, or in specific researcher articles.
- I also agree that phrasing the article as E vs. H is a bad way to go.
Finally, I'll clarify the positions since everyone seems to be messing them up. It's not "Environmentalism denies any genetic contribution to between-group differences in IQ.". Environmentalism is the position that environmental factors dominate the variation in inter racial IQ scores. Likewise, it should be pointed out that the Hereditarianism position is not 50%/50% genetics and environment. Rather, it is the position that the genetic component is large enough to effect the aggregate intelligence of races significantly. A.Prock 18:09, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- Aryaman, you seem still not to understand my point. Are the hereditarian and environmentalist hypotheses the same thing? Well, it is you who are saying they are the same thing, or the same kinds of things, you are saying they are both hypotheses. I am questioning in what way either of them are hypotheses, at least in the scientific seence. And the fac remains, "genetic" refers to one cause, "environmental" refers to many different kinds of causes, granted, all similar in not being "genetic" but it still sounds to me like the difference between saying "it is because of brownian motion acting on the embryo" and "it is because he had no positive adult role model at home" are much less alike than saying "it is because of gene a" and "it is because of gene b." What am I not seeing? Slrubenstein | Talk 19:50, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Aprock: You wrote "The history section has to be somewhere". I'm assuming you've read my responses to Occam and Muntuwandi, so I don't get your point here. Are you saying you object to having this material as an introduction to the Hypotheses section? Also, the official statements make little sense until the reader has been sufficiently prepared for them. We can summarize the thrust of these statements in the lead, though, and I'd like to think that would satisfy the "get the right version out there first" impulse. Besides, the APA report was published 15 years ago, so calling it "current" would be stretching things a little. I'm sorry that the difference between studies on factors potentially affecting group IQ scores and the pseudo-philosophical attitudes people take towards the issue of causation is not sufficiently clear to you. Perhaps you could list some of the studies you think should not be discussed and we can evaluate them as a group? As for defining environmentalism and hereditarianism, we can quote Jensen & Rushton:
It is essential to keep in mind precisely what the two rival positions do and do not say—about a 50% genetic–50% environmental etiology for the hereditarian view versus an effectively 0% genetic–100% environmental etiology for the culture-only theory. The defining difference is whether any significant part of the mean Black–White IQ difference is genetic rather than purely cultural or environmental in origin. Hereditarians use the methods of quantitative genetics, and they can and do seek to identify the environmental components of observed group differences. Culture-only theorists are skeptical that genetic factors play any independently effective role in explaining group differences. Most of those who have taken a strong position in the scientific debate about race and IQ have done so as either hereditarians or culture-only theorists. Intermediate positions (e.g., gene– environment interaction) can be operationally assigned to one or the other of the two positions depending on whether they predict any significant heritable component to the average group difference in IQ. For example, if gene–environment interactions make it impossible to disentangle causality and apportion variance, for pragmatic purposes that view is indistinguishable from the 100% culture-only program because it denies any potency to the genetic component proposed by hereditarians. (pg. 238)
Slrubenstein: No, I don't understand your point. Please refer to the quote from Jensen & Rushton above, and ask whether your beef is with me or with the experts. --Aryaman (talk) 13:09, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
page structure - convenience break 2
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I've put the two suggested outlines next to each other for comparison here - Aryman's is more detailed, of course, (Wapondaponda - maybe you want to flesh yours out), but let's compare them. If we can agree on which sections we all agree must be there, then I can get David Kane to start working on those while we debate the sections that are still debatable. --Ludwigs2 22:17, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- 1) I am out next week, but after that, I can devote 2 full days to writing this up. 2) If any other editor would like to take my place, feel free to! I have only volunteered for this because no one else seems to have the time. 3) Keep in mind that I will respect WP:SIZE, so not everything will fit. 4) It is my strong preference that we (really, the rest of you) reach consensus on the outline first. Whatever you agree on, I will make a good faith effort to write up. 5) I still hope/assume that we all agree that, assuming good faith effort on my part, the version that I create becomes the basis for changes going forward. David.Kane (talk) 03:36, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Well, at this rate it looks like we probably won’t be starting to revise the article before the end of the week, which means we also won’t be able to do it anytime next week if David.Kane’s going to be the one writing it. But in the mean time, I guess we can at least work on refining the outline a little more, and getting as many people as possible to approve of it.
- A few users here have made suggestions about Varoon Arya’s outline. There’s my suggestion about including the "significance of group IQ differences" data, and Aprock and Muntuwandi were also hoping for a little more space to be given to the history of the debate. (I don’t have a strong opinion either way about this suggestion from them, but if article size is likely to be an issue I think splitting off a one or more sub-articles might be a good idea in general.) I would suggest that Varoon Arya incrementally modify his outline as he takes other users’ requests into consideration. Ludwig, do you approve of that suggestion?
- If that’s what we’re going to do, I should point out that Bryan Pesta (the psychologist I mentioned earlier) has now offered some of his advice about the article here. VA, as you modify the outline, I think you should listen to his suggestions also. --Captain Occam (talk) 11:20, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- I want to thank David Kane for the hard and thoughtful work he has put into this, I think it is a positive step. I just want to be clear about a point I have been trying to make. A hypothesis is not the same thing as an argument. There may well be an environmentalist argument, but so far I have not seen an environmentalist hypothesis. I can surmise many different environmentalist hypothses; someone hee, perhaps Muntuwandi, or Varyoon Arya, or Captain Occam, once referred to an article on a specific hypothesis concerning family environment (which I believe was falisfied). The article should be clear about this distinction. David keeps space for policy discussions - I think one reason this section remains important is because it is my sense that the major arguments (not hypotheses) have been presented in the context of policy discussions where one might well expect arguments to be made. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:06, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Nope, I like it just as much and apologize for not giving credit where credit is due. Still, it seems to me that the "variables" come closer to corresponding to what scientists mean by hypotheses, and what are called hypotheses are still arguments, not hypotheses. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:51, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- The word "hypotheses" is certainly not carved in stone here. These "positions" are also referred to as "theses", "programs", "views", "models", etc. The point of the section is to present environmentalism and hereditarianism as identifiable "positions" which have crystallized through the course of the last 30 or 40 years, and which can and do themselves serve as starting points for additional research (as when someone sets out to "disprove" the "hereditarian" model as opposed to the results of a particular piece of research). I'm flexible on the title. --Aryaman (talk) 14:06, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- You changes look good to me, VA. However, there’s one thing we’ll need to do with this outline at some point before we begin editing the article, and that’s to determine exactly what lines of data should be covered in the “Variables potentially affecting intelligence in groups” section, and how they should be described. I’d like to at least bring this up, although we can postpone the discussion about it if there end up being other major structural aspects of your outline that we need to resolve first.
- When DJ first made his proposal of a data-centric structure, he listed several lines of data that he thought it would be important for the article to cover and which it currently doesn’t. Around a week later, I posted a list of all of the data that I thought the article should cover, combining the items listed in DJ’s original proposal with the ones already covered by the article. Here’s that list again, although I’ve made some comments about a few of the items on it, regarding where they should go and how they should be described.
- Socioeconomic factors
- Stereotype threat (According to my discussions with Mr. Pesta, research conduced in the past five years regards this as being just unlikely as a cause of the IQ difference as socio-economic status is. It should still be mentioned, but the article should probably reflect the most current opinions about it.)
- The Flynn effect (You’ve already said this’ll go in the “intelligence test score results” section, but I’m including it here because it was on the original list.)
- Black and biracial children raised by white parents
- African ancestry and IQ
- Molecular genetic studies
- Health / nutrition
- Quality of education
- Racial discrimination in education
- Caste-like minorities
- the implications of within group heritability for between group heritability (This could possibly go in the “Group differences in intelligence” section.)
- Spearman's hypothesis and reaction time data (This could possibly go in the “Intelligence test score results” section.)
- adoption and early intervention programs
- structural equation modeling of between group differences
- regression equations among siblings
- brain size and other biological correlates
- evolutionary models (see the January issue of PAID)
- I think all of this data should be described in the article in some capacity, although for some of it I’m not sure how or where. In addition to deciding where in the article some of these lines of data should go, we also need to decide what factors were isolated by some of the studies that’ll be going in the “Variables potentially affecting intelligence in groups” section. For example, what factors are being isolated by studies comparing IQ to level of African ancestry, or structural equation models? Or should those go in the “intelligence test score results” section?
- I trust you to fit these lines of data into the structure in whatever way works best. What matters to me is just that we cover them one way or another, and that we figure out specifically how to cover them before we begin revising the article. --Captain Occam (talk) 15:10, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Here is how I would handle it, structurally: distinguish between the data that raises the key questions, and the data collected in the course of seeking answers. Or, put another way, there is the basic data used to make the claim that there are significant between-group diferences in average IQ scores. This to my mind stands apart. Then there are various hypotheses people have had to explain this data. In the course of testing these hypotheses, additional data has been collected. I think this additional data should be presented in relation to the relevant hypothesis being tested. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:29, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- You're right in seeing a distinction here, Slrubenstein. I've referred to the "trigger" data as "preliminary" and/or "uncontrolled" as opposed to the data gathered in a controlled study. I realize this is not very good terminology, and I'm certainly open to improvements here. The preliminary data, i.e. that which triggers the additional research, should be presented in the section "Intelligence test score results". The other kind of research, which is done with the preliminary research in mind and attempts to explain those results, are controlled studies which attempt to isolate particular factors and estimate their significance in terms of their impact on group figures. In the outline, this research would be presented under "Variables potentially affecting intelligence in groups" which is applicable to both environmental factors (social and biological) as well as genetic factors. As long as you're not suggesting we group such studies under "environmental" and "hereditarian" research, then I think we're in agreement.
- Varoon Arya, I am in complete agreement with what you write, above. I would like to see A.Prock and Muntuwandi weigh in - it is indeed difficult to find the write words to describe this distinction, but I am sure we can solve this. And "Variables potentially affecting intelligence in groups" is much better than "Hereditarian vs. Environmentalist." I think the former (your phrasing above) comes much closer to describing how science works; the latter may fit more with how non-scientists think of these problems, or how some scientists have tried to communicate to non-scientists ... Slrubenstein | Talk 16:12, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Occam: I reorganized the list of factors under the "Variables" heading with short explanations of what would go where. Several of the others should probably be discussed in other sections, as you note above. As I said before, it may make sense to briefly list the methods used in these studies in the introduction to the section along with important theoretical and manipulatory concepts. As for "Evolutionary models", my reading of Jensen & Rushton leads me to suspect that this may be presented by its proponents as an alternative to "canonical" hereditarianism and/or environmentalism. I'm not familiar enough with this aspect to say for sure, and would appreciate more information. --Aryaman (talk) 19:30, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks, this is looking pretty good so far. I’ve got a couple of other suggestions, though. (I hope you don’t mind me asking you to change these things, rather than changing them myself—since you’re the one who came up with the outline, I feel like it would be best for you to be the one who modifies it based on the rest of our suggestions.)
- 1: Your outline doesn’t mention where we would discuss Spearman’s hypothesis, structural equation modeling, or regression among siblings. I’m guessing that’s because you think those topics should go in sections other than “Variables potentially affecting intelligence in groups”, but it would still be useful to resolve ahead of time where this information should go.
- 2: You might consider this a nit-pick, but I think it’s at least worth mentioning: I don’t think I approve of the article labeling the two hypotheses about the cause of the IQ difference as “Hereditarianism” and “Environmentalism”. While the hypothesis that genes play a significant role in causing the IQ difference could definitely be considered part of Hereditarianism, it’s pretty clear from the article about this school of thought that it concerns a much wider range of subjects than just race and intelligence. Labeling this hypothesis about the cause of the IQ difference as “hereditarianism” seems like it would imply that this hypothesis is hereditarianism, and that hereditarianism doesn’t include anything beyond this. As for Environmentalism, the article about that viewpoint describes it as concern for environmental conservation. I’m sure we can also come up with a better term than this for the hypothesis that the IQ difference is caused 100% by environmental factors.
- I would suggest that these sections be labeled as “Environmental explanations” and “Hereditarian explanations”. The word “hypotheses” in place of “explanations” would be OK also. Do you agree that one of those would be preferable over your proposal’s current wording?
- As for evolutionary models, DJ listed the papers from PAID that covered this. This is quoted from his earlier comment:
- Volume 48, Issue 2 of PAID included 5 articles in a section titled "National IQs and evolutionary theories of intelligence: a discussion". Here are the articles:
- Jelte M. Wicherts, Denny Borsboom, Conor V. Dolan, Why national IQs do not support evolutionary theories of intelligence, Personality and Individual Differences, Volume 48, Issue 2, January 2010, Pages 91-96, ISSN 0191-8869, DOI: 10.1016/j.paid.2009.05.028.
- J. Philippe Rushton, Brain size as an explanation of national differences in IQ, longevity, and other life-history variables, Personality and Individual Differences, Volume 48, Issue 2, January 2010, Pages 97-99, ISSN 0191-8869, DOI: 10.1016/j.paid.2009.07.029.
- Richard Lynn, Consistency of race differences in intelligence over millennia: A comment on Wicherts, Borsboom and Dolan, Personality and Individual Differences, Volume 48, Issue 2, January 2010, Pages 100-101, ISSN 0191-8869, DOI: 10.1016/j.paid.2009.09.007.
- Donald I. Templer, Can't see the forest because of the trees, Personality and Individual Differences, Volume 48, Issue 2, January 2010, Pages 102-103, ISSN 0191-8869, DOI: 10.1016/j.paid.2009.08.011.
- Jelte M. Wicherts, Denny Borsboom, Conor V. Dolan, Evolution, brain size, and the national IQ of peoples around 3000 years B.C, Personality and Individual Differences, Volume 48, Issue 2, January 2010, Pages 104-106, ISSN 0191-8869, DOI: 10.1016/j.paid.2009.08.020.
- Whoever’s going to revise the article should probably read these. I haven’t yet because I don’t have access to them right now, but I can probably find a way to get access within a few days if nobody else is able to get them.
- I suspect that you’re right about these being alternatives to the two main hypotheses about the cause of the IQ difference, but evolutionary scenarios may also involve lines of evidence that aren’t being discussed with regard to other versions of these hypotheses, such as Rushton’s comparison of “life-history” traits between Africans, Europeans and Asians. I think this information should probably at least be mentioned, even if it doesn’t deserve as much space as the more widely-accepted data that you’ve listed in the “Variables potentially affecting intelligence in groups” section. --Captain Occam (talk) 09:35, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Spearman's hypothesis: I would be inclined to put this in the "History" section, though I could also see this going in the introduction to "Group differences in intelligence". This is something we could discuss as a group.
Structural equation modelling and regression analysis: As long as we're talking about methods of data manipulation, I'd discuss these in the introductory paragraphs to the "Variables" section. If we're talking about specific results which arise as a result of, say, applying regression analysis to sibling data, then we would need to look at the specific research to find a better fit.
The wording of the "Hypotheses" section obviously was not working, so I've gone ahead and modified it, changing the title and sub-titles to something I think takes your concerns into account, as well as those of Slrubenstein. Let me know what you think.
The articles you've listed definitely need to be obtained before we can make a decision on the "evolutionary models". Do we know if DJ has access to them? One possibility, though, is that, provided we go with the new title, we could write a sub-section on this at a later point in time. --Aryaman (talk) 13:04, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
- I would say Spearman's hypothesis and regression analysis go under neuropsychology and genetics, respectively. Strucutural equation modelling is considering all factors and should probably go in the introduction. As for Evolutionary models, I took a look at those papers. It's mostly about applying r/K selection theory to races, and how life history variables correlate to intelligence, hypothetically as a result of following r or K strategies. I guess the idea is that higher levels of parental care allow longer brain maturation times, coupled with the theory that cold climates are cognitively demanding (I personally have doubts about the 'cold-climate' theory, I have a feeling population density is a better avenue of investigation, but who cares what I think ;) ). There's some stuff about ancient brain size and estimating intelligence from cultural achievements. If we did include it right now I think it should have it's own section, maybe 'Evolutionary models'. But I think it might be best to discuss this after the first version is done. mikemikev (talk) 14:41, 13 March 2010 (UTC) actually on second thought maybe Spearman's hypothesis should go in the history section.
Ignoring the minor details, it seems that Occam, Mike and I agree that this outline is slowly shaping up to be good enough to use as a framework for our first serious revision. Slrubenstein has commented on it favourably without voicing explicit approval. The others have not commented (yet). I really hope someone isn't avoiding commenting now with the intention of chiming in when it comes time to take action with the blanket "I-don't-like-it-so-let's-reject-it" vote. Now is the best time to voice concerns and make suggestions for changes. Case in point: Slrubenstein voiced his concern with the word "hypotheses", I agreed this was probably not the best choice, and it has been changed - hopefully to our mutual approval. I'm not expecting everyone to comment here, but I'd like to hear from Aprock and David in particular as to whether they could live with using this for our first draft. Thanks, --Aryaman (talk) 16:57, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
- VA, I’m not sure we should expect David.Kane to comment on this anytime soon. According to a few of his recent comments here, for the next week he won’t be available at all, and he may have left already. I agree that it would be useful to get Aprock’s opinion, though.
- By the way, I’ve got the PAID papers now, and can send them to you if you like. I’d need your e-mail address before I can do that, though. If you don’t want to post it anywhere on-wiki, you can also contact me at my own e-mail address (microraptor at gmail dot com) and I’ll send them to you in reply. --Captain Occam (talk) 19:43, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
- This is a good outline.
- Concern - somewhere between "Intelligence test score results" and "Variables potentially affecting intelligence in groups" is a middle layer of rather important research results. It's not clear where they belong and that they should all be expressed together. Perhaps they implicitly belong in "Intelligence test score results", but it might not be that simple. The missing research is the fine-grained characterization of the proximal underlying structure of group differences in test results and their proximal phenotypic covariants. These studies speak to the "validity" and importance of the differences but not to their ultimate causes per se. Three areas I noticed aren't explicitly mentioned:
- 1) the factor structure of test score differences -- including the contribution of psychometric bias, the contribution of g and other ability factors, etc. -- the finding of the psychometric equivalence of between and within group phenotypic differences
- 2) group differences with respect to educational, occupational, and social correlates of test scores -- sometimes called the horizontal g nexus
- 3) group differences with respect to neurological and chronometric correlates of IQ scores -- sometimes called the vertical g nexus
- The common thread of these topics is that they don't address ultimate causes (genes vs environment) but they are more detailed investigations than just reporting average IQ test scores. --DJ (talk) 19:46, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
- I think this material would fit best if discussed after the test scores but before the variables its own sub-section. As for a title, I'm wide open. Suggestions? --Aryaman (talk) 18:14, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
- I have added to the proposed outline above. Wapondaponda (talk) 21:04, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
- I think this material would fit best if discussed after the test scores but before the variables its own sub-section. As for a title, I'm wide open. Suggestions? --Aryaman (talk) 18:14, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
- Muntuwandi, I notice that your version of the outline omits most of the same lines of data that are omitted from the current article. (Spearman’s hypothesis, reaction time, regression among siblings, brain size, etc.) Is this intentional, or were you intending to include them somewhere?
- I’m guessing this omission was intentional, since your version of the outline splits the data into “environmental factors” and “hereditarian theories”, and that division is why the current article omits this data. Since the division results in this data being classified as “hereditarian evidence”, people like you, Alun and Ramdrake have been of the opinion that this data needed to be excluded from the article because including it would be providing too much space to topics related to the hereditarian hypothesis. Am I correct to assume that your proposal for the article would continue excluding this data for the same reason? --Captain Occam (talk) 02:06, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Occam, You had suggested that data and interpretations section would include data that could be argued both ways. If you can give examples of publications that have used environmental arguments based on Spearman's hypothesis, or regression among siblings then I would consider including them in the outline. If not, they can be used as evidence for hereditarian explanations. As for Brain size, I believe it is covered in Neuroscience and intelligence. But you are correct in stating that since the hereditarian view is a minority position, it should be given less space in the article. I have also omitted evolutionary scenarios, because I am not sure what information is to be included. As I have previously mentioned, many evolutionary theories are highly speculative seeing that we do not have prehistoric IQ data. Evolutionary hypotheses are usually meant to explain the genetic hypotheses, so the net effect is a hypotheses of a hypotheses. If you would like evolutionary scenarios to be included, I would suggest creating a thread which would have some the data you wish to include. Wapondaponda (talk) 06:12, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Muntuwandi, I'm not impressed by your proposal. Aryaman's idea allows all data and causes to be placed in the same section. Yours splits the issue into 3 overlapping categories, and it is very unclear where some information will go. This will compromise long term stability. Regression supports genetic causes, so therefore we omit it? Lead poisoning is environmental, so we omit that? Caste like minorities? You see how extremely biased you are being? Can we ask you to name publications using genetic arguments based on racial discrimination? What you're saying doesn't even make sense. And you really want to omit brain-size data because it's covered in Neuroscience and intelligence? This is information suppression. There's big difference between undue weight and total omission. mikemikev (talk) 13:50, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Occam, You had suggested that data and interpretations section would include data that could be argued both ways. If you can give examples of publications that have used environmental arguments based on Spearman's hypothesis, or regression among siblings then I would consider including them in the outline. If not, they can be used as evidence for hereditarian explanations. As for Brain size, I believe it is covered in Neuroscience and intelligence. But you are correct in stating that since the hereditarian view is a minority position, it should be given less space in the article. I have also omitted evolutionary scenarios, because I am not sure what information is to be included. As I have previously mentioned, many evolutionary theories are highly speculative seeing that we do not have prehistoric IQ data. Evolutionary hypotheses are usually meant to explain the genetic hypotheses, so the net effect is a hypotheses of a hypotheses. If you would like evolutionary scenarios to be included, I would suggest creating a thread which would have some the data you wish to include. Wapondaponda (talk) 06:12, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- I’m guessing this omission was intentional, since your version of the outline splits the data into “environmental factors” and “hereditarian theories”, and that division is why the current article omits this data. Since the division results in this data being classified as “hereditarian evidence”, people like you, Alun and Ramdrake have been of the opinion that this data needed to be excluded from the article because including it would be providing too much space to topics related to the hereditarian hypothesis. Am I correct to assume that your proposal for the article would continue excluding this data for the same reason? --Captain Occam (talk) 02:06, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with Mikemikev. And you don’t seem to be understanding what I’ve explained about lines of data such as regression among siblings: even though they aren’t arguments for environmental causes per se, any environmental explanation will still have to account for them, because any environmental explanation that doesn’t will be inconsistent with the data. For this reason Richard Nisbett spends several pages in Intelligence and How to Get It discussing regression among siblings, and how he thinks environmental factors could cause it.
- Wikipedia’s policy for articles about controversial topics is to let the data speak for itself, and allow readers to form their own conclusions based it. So I consider it unencyclopedic for the article to omit certain lines of data for the reason you’re wanting to omit them, particularly when these lines of data are being discussed by authors on both sides of the debate. This problem is also what’s resulted in the current article’s lack of stability, so your proposal is unlikely to make it any more stable than it was before the mediation.
- I don’t need to start a new thread about how I think your proposal should be modified, because there’s already an alternative proposal which I approve of because it doesn’t have the problems that yours does. Slrubenstein has said that he approves of the alternative proposal also, and you’re the only user here who’s expressed clear disapproval of it. If you want the rest of us to prefer your proposal over Varoon Arya’s, it’s your own responsibility to improve it so that it’s preferable over VA’s. If you don’t, that won’t prevent the article from being revised; that just means we’ll probably be using his proposal rather than yours. --Captain Occam (talk) 14:52, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- I am inclined to agree that hypotheses should be includede with the data that resulted from the subsequent research. As for Varoon's outline, I consider it a step in the right direction but I do not consider it perfect. Several of Muntuwandi's points are pretty reasonable and I wish Varoon could accommodate them. for one thing, I do not understand this point about sibling regressions. Heritability is a measure of in-group pvariation. What possible implications could it have for between group variation? Slrubenstein | Talk 15:10, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- As I mentioned before, there is the problem of how much related research results to present. For example, I think we all agree that the heritability of IQ should be mentioned somewhere. But I agree with Slrubenstein here. In depth reviews of sibling studies don't seem appropriate for this article. A.Prock (talk) 16:03, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
notes on VA's outline:
- The description of the "environmental hypothesis" is incorrect and needs to be fixed. Specifically, it should highlight two facts. First, there is direct evidence that many environmental factors can affect IQ, and that there is only indirect evidence that genetics can affect IQ. Second, the variation of between group performance is less than the variation that can be caused by environmental effects. In other words, the hypothesis is that environmental factors dominate genetic factors. Genetic factors may still affect between group intelligence, just not enough to account for significant variation.
- There needs to be inclusion of caste-like minorities somewhere.
- I generally like the "Variables potentially affecting intelligence in groups" organization.
- It's not clear where an extended discussion of the "Flynn effect" occurs.
- I'm not at all comfortable including a separate section for policy implications. I'm not at all sure what the "Significance of group IQ differences" is about or that it should be included. I think that if these sort of discussions are to be included, I would take the "Ethical Issues" from Wapondaponda's outline.
- It's not clear what is in the lede, but certainly the current scientific consensus should be reflected there.
A.Prock (talk) 16:25, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Above Aryaman noted that I did not voice explicit approval of his outline. I still think it is a step in the right direction, but I would feel much better if we took on board several of A.Prock's points. He and I may disagree on one point, concerning policy implications. I agree that we ought not have a section on policy implications per se. But I do think we need to distinguish between views that have been voiced in the context of policy discussions, versus scientific hypotheses that have been tested. Otherwise I agree completely with A.Prock's points. If we can incorporate them into Varoon's outline and remove, as Muntuwandi argued, the speculation about evolution, which is certain fringe work by people who are not evolutionary scientists and who are not considering the considerable research by evolutionary scientists, I would think we would be much closer to actually redrafting the article. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:39, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- In the outline, I have taken into account WP:SIZE, which was one of the concerns expressed by a number of editors. So the outline only includes some of the core aspects of the controversy. I don't have strong feelings about whether to include or omit Spearman's hypothesis and regression to the mean. I just do not think they are the core issues in this controversy. Spearman's hypothesis relates to the existence of "g" and when he first proposed this hypothesis, he didn't have race in mind. Jensen and co. have used this hypothesis to suggest that B/W differences should correlate with a tests "g" loading. But if we assume that psychometric tests, such as IQ tests, are representative of "g", then Spearman's hypothesis is already covered and in the interest of brevity a full section on the hypothesis can be left out.
- Jensen and Rushton have noted regression to the mean from their data and analysis so there is a decent argument for including it in the article. However I think regression to the mean is an interesting phenomenon but it is quite confusing and can get quite messy. There is an apparent contradiction with hereditarian theories. Hereditarian theories predict that children of parents with a High IQ will also have a high IQ. Whereas regression to the mean predicts that children of parents with high IQ will not themselves have a high IQ but instead their IQ will regress to the mean of the population. The same for children of parents with a low IQ and a similar scenario when one sibling has a high or low IQ.
- Regression to the mean will only occur at a specific point in time. This is because the mean itself is always moving, as has been observed by the Flynn Effect. During the course of Human Evolution, the mean also moved. So if regression to the mean always occurred then evolution wouldn't occur. If we assume that Chimpanzees have a mean IQ of 30, and that humans descend from a chimpanzee-like ancestor, then during evolution the mean IQ rose from 30 to 100. If our chimpanzee-like ancestors only regressed to the mean, then we would still have an average IQ of 30. The phenomena warrants further investigation, but because it is a transient phenomenon it is quite confusing, and decided that we could leave it out for now. Wapondaponda (talk) 05:58, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- Sadly, you fail to understand the well established genetic concept of regression to the mean. Perhaps you could google it, or try reading the primary literature on Race and Intelligence. I admit that it's possible that it has an environmental cause in the case of Race IQ differences, and it is a bit unclear where it goes in Aryaman's structure. We could even leave it out for now and come back to it after the first version.
- However, the more pressing question is that your structure plan is fundamentally flawed. Perhaps you could address this? The way it's looking right now we will be going with Aryaman's structure as soon as David Kane is available. mikemikev (talk) 12:16, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- Huh? Mikmikev, it is you who just brought up regression to the mean. Here we are discussing the difference between Muntuwandi's outline and Aryaman's, and you and Captain Occam have explained that one reason you object to Muntuwandi's outline is that he does not include regression among siblings. So look, if you want to discuss this, let's discuss this. You are the one who is making this a major reason for favoring one outline over the other, so apparently it is an important issue to address in comparing the two outlines. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:02, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- The way that regression is relevant to environment or genetics is explained on page 263 (Section 9) in Jensen & Rushton’s Thirty Years of Research on Race Differences in Cognitive Ability. There are lots of other sources that talk about this also, from both a hereditarian and environmental perspective, but I’m suggesting Jensen & Rushton 2005 because it can be downloaded for free.
- All three of you (Aprock, Slrubenstein and Muntuwandi) ought to familiarize yourself with this topic before claiming that certain lines of evidence are irrelevant to it. Even though authors such as Flynn and Nisbett disagree with Jensen and Rushton about regression patterns indicating a genetic contribution to between-group differences, they don’t dispute the general fact that this is an important line of evidence about the source of these differences, and one that any explanation of the IQ difference will have to take into account. By claiming that this line of data has nothing to do with environment or genetics, you are contradicting the consensus of both the hereditarian and environmental viewpoints.
- Even if the three of you aren’t aware of this, most of us are. So I can pretty much guarantee that as long as Varoon Arya’s proposed outline includes this line of data, and Muntuwandi’s doesn’t, mikemikev, VA, DJ, David.Kane and I are all going to prefer VA’s outline over Muntuwandi’s. If Muntuwandi wants his outline to be favored, he is the one who will need to compromise here. --Captain Occam (talk) 13:41, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- You just said in your earlier comment, “Regression to the mean has nothing to environment or genetics.” If it has nothing to do with environment or genetics, then that means it would be irrelevant to determining which of these two is responsible for between-group IQ differences.
- Jensen & Rushton 2005 can be downloaded here. I’m kind of surprised that as someone who’s evidently interested in this topic, you haven’t read this paper already, since it’s one of the best-known summaries of the evidence for the hereditarian hypothesis.
- Incidentally, this isn’t the place to debate over whether Jensen and Rushton’s interpretation of this line of evidence is correct, if anyone here was thinking of doing that here. All I’m intending to demonstrate is how this line of data is relevant to determining the cause of between-group differences, which is something that Flynn and Nisbett acknowledge also. --Captain Occam (talk) 16:00, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Statistics are independent of R/I. Regression to the mean is a statistical concept, and the nature of that concept has nothing to do with R/I. I've certainly gone over the paper before, but it's generally a biased presentation, and difficult to take serious. With respect to inclusion of this or that, it's important to keep in mind that this is an encyclopedic article, not a review article. Not all the content in the Jensen/Rushton review will be included. In fact, I would guess that most of it won't given that it's 60 pages long. Looking through Section 9, the authors assume that the bulk of any regression to the mean effect must arise from genetics, which is a bold not clearly correct assumption. I suppose I should try and track down the original papers, but the assertion that "test scores 2 to 4 points lower" are due to genetics and that "Culture-only theory cannot predict these results" is unsupported in the review. Based on the attention given to the topic in the review (2% of the body), it doesn't seem like a major body of evidence at all. A.Prock (talk) 16:22, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- This is why I said, “All I’m intending to demonstrate is how this line of data is relevant to determining the cause of between-group differences” Did you read my entire comment? Whether this paper’s conclusions are correct has nothing to do with what I’m saying. Your assertion is that regression has nothing to do with race and intelligence, and I’m suggesting that you read their explanation of what its relevance is, because even if you don’t agree with their conclusions from it, their explanation shows what the debate over this line of data is. Your comment is about why you think their conclusions are wrong, but you aren’t attempting to address the much more fundamental point that this line of data is relevant to the debate on this topic.
- If you won’t accept the relevance of this data based on Jensen & Rushton 2005 because you can’t get past the fact that you don’t agree with their conclusions, then read Intelligence and How to Get It. Nisbett accepts that regression is an important line of data in this topic, and offers his own interpretation of it that differs from Jensen and Rushton’s. It doesn’t matter whether you believe Jensen’s explanation of this or Nisbett’s; all that matters is that you accept the conclusion from both of them that this line of data matters in the topic of race and intelligence. Do you understand my point now? --Captain Occam (talk) 17:36, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Agree with A.Prock. Captain Occam, A.Prock is precisely addressing "the much more fundamental point that this line of data is relevant to the debate on this topic." As long as you have a normal distribution of responses (which will presumably occur in any population) you will then find regression to the mean, it has nothing to do with race as such and certainly has no relevance to the debate. The issue is not whether I happen to agree with Jensen or Rushton's views about race and intelligence, but whether these specific views are mainstream, minority, or fringe. They are without doubt fringe. Section 9 is largely a string of unsupported assertions and inaccurate statements about regression to the mean. Even the statement about the odds of the roll of the dice is a little screwy. We have plenty of important things to put into the article. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:45, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Captain Occam, Nesbitt addresses this in "appendix B" and just to say that it is independent of environment or race - I hardly find this compelling evidence that Nesbitt agrees it is important to the debate. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:52, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- @Occam, With respect to whether or not this body of evidence (Section 9 of J/R) is important, I believe the fact that it occupies one page in a 60-page summary is enough to demonstrate that it's not of great significance. I read that page, and it's pretty light on content that -- on the face of thigns -- makes some clearly false assumptions. There just isn't room in an encyclopedic article to include the entirety of research and conclusions. We should probably track down the primary articles if you're interested in including it. As for what regression to the mean is, and how it relates to any field that may use it as a tool, I wasn't making an assertion, I was simply stating a fact. For more information about Regression toward the mean, please refer to the wiki page. A.Prock (talk) 18:02, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Aprock, I just said in my previous comment that the simple fact that it was included doesn’t relate to my point. I was asking you to read their explanation of why they think it matters, and preferably Nisbett’s explanation of why it matters also. They don’t agree on their interpretation of it, but they agree about its relevance to this topic.
- Slrubenstein, there are two important points here.
- 1: We’ve already established, multiple times, that the hereditarian hypothesis does not meet Wikipedia’s criteria of a fringe theory. Since Jensen & Rushton 2005 is the best-known recent overview of the hereditarian hypothesis, for you to claim that it is “without doubt fringe” amounts to the same thing as claiming this about the hereditarian hypothesis. Ludwig has asked us to stop claiming this.
You are misrepresenting me. I said no such thing. Please respond to what I did write, but do not misrepresent what I wrote. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:08, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- 2: Regardless of your personal viewpoints about whether regression to the mean can tell us anything about the cause of the IQ difference, the fact of the matter is that this is a line of data that both sides of the debate discuss pretty consistently. If we’re going to use a data-centric structure, then that single criterion is enough for it be included, regardless of our personal opinions about it.
No it is not a line of data both sides discuss consistently, it is a line of argumentation that one side gives one page in a sixty page article to. Moreover, regression to the mean is not data, it is a statistical phenomenon. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:08, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- In any case, and this might be the most important thing, I don’t think there’s any way that I or any of the other four editors I mentioned will accept an outline that doesn’t include this line of data. So you and Muntuwandi can leave it out of your outline if you want, and by doing so you’ll be more or less making it certain that we’ll be using Varoon Arya’s outline instead. Since we definitely won’t be using Muntuwandi’s outline if it doesn’t include this line of data, it actually doesn’t matter to me whether it’s included in his outline or not. --Captain Occam (talk) 18:13, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Occam, I read it. There was little substance there. As I said, if you think this is important to include we should track down the original papers. I also don't think Slrubenstein was calling the review fringe, just Section 9. I personally don't have an opinion on that matter, and won't until I look at the original papers. With respect to what the mediation produced with respect to fringe, here is the summary:
I certainly agree with that summary. If you don't, then maybe we should revisit the issue? I still don't see how one page in a review, and a mention in an apendix constitutes a significant body of research. I don't see your drawing a line in the sand as very useful. I think it's much better to be flexible and open to compromise. As I said above, I'm willing to look at the original articles, or any other primary articles which mention this line of evidence. A.Prock (talk) 18:27, 17 March 2010 (UTC)Research into race and intelligence is not "fringe", some of the conclusions drawn from that research are highly contentious and need to be presented as such in the article.
- Occam, I read it. There was little substance there. As I said, if you think this is important to include we should track down the original papers. I also don't think Slrubenstein was calling the review fringe, just Section 9. I personally don't have an opinion on that matter, and won't until I look at the original papers. With respect to what the mediation produced with respect to fringe, here is the summary:
Thak you for representing me accurately. This is precisely what I said, and I stand by it. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:08, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- This isn’t me drawing a line in the sand, it’s me trying to avoid getting into a lengthy debate about something that will probably have zero effect on the overall outcome for the article. If you, Slrubenstein and Muntuwandi don’t want to put regression in your outline, then just don’t. It isn’t worth the amount of time it would require for me to convince all three of you that you should include this data, when it’s already obvious that we’ll be using Varoon Arya’s outline rather than yours if you don’t. --Captain Occam (talk) 18:35, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
We are seeking mediation to come up with ONE outline for the article. In the end there is no "my outline" versus "your outline," there is just the outline we will use. And if you do not understand what regression to the mean is, then I advise you to listen to people who do, in devising the outline we will use for this article. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:08, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- I don't have an outline. Most of the feedback I've given has been with respect to VA's outline. This process isn't going to resolve itself by presenting two different outlines and then picking one. If we can't come to a consensus about the outline, it's difficult to see how this will proceed in any sort of timely manner. And again, your "my way or the highway" attitude really isn't productive in terms of reaching consensus. A.Prock (talk) 18:44, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- The outline that I referred to as “yours” is the one proposed by Muntuwandi, since that seems to be the one you favor also. But anyway, the fact that most of the discussion here is about VA’s outline is another reason we don’t need to discuss regression’s relevance or non-relevance. His outline is structured around including all of the lines of data that are discussed by both sides of the debate on this topic, including regression. And I don’t think you’re arguing that regression should actually be removed from his outline, since that wasn’t one of the suggested changes to his outline that you listed above. --Captain Occam (talk) 18:52, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- I have at no point indicated which outline I favor, and to respond to that I personally don't have a strong preference for either one. With respect to the regression studies, I've made it clear where I stand with respect to them above. Please review them as you seem to be unclear about what I've written today. A.Prock (talk) 19:20, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- You’ve been clear that you want regression studies kept out of Muntuwandi’s outline, but you haven’t been clear about whether you also expect them to be removed from Varoon Arya’s outline. Is that something you expect also?
- If it is, then you need to let him know that. As I said, it’s not in your list of requested revisions to his outline that you posted two days ago. --Captain Occam (talk) 20:00, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- I have not once said that I want to keep the studies out. In fact, I've said that I'm open to including them. Please go back and reread what I wrote. And please do not take what was written in a comment two days ago to be the sum and entirety of my positions. A.Prock (talk) 23:20, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Occam, A.Prock - you are talking past each other in unproductive ways. I suggest you stop making assumptions about what the other person means, and instead ask them directly for clarification on things that bother you. people are usually much more responsive to that approach.
slrubenstein - cutting numerous comments into the discussion that way is crazy-making for everyone. can you re-indent and lump your responses together in the future, please? --Ludwigs2 17:34, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- Ludwig2, I'm perfectly happy not making assumptions about what Occam means. While I've not been direct as possible, I think I've been fairly clear in stating my positions. It may be that I haven't been clear enough. I'll try to be more clear in the future. A.Prock (talk) 17:50, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
page structure - convenience break 3 [3/17/10]
There are several things I don't like about Muntuwandi's proposed outline, but the glaring fault from where I sit is the division into "environmental" and "genetic" factors when discussing variables potentially affecting intelligence in groups. For example, is SES an "environmental" factor? What about the quality of one's eduction? If an "environmental" factor such as SES is itself determined by IQ to any significant degree, its value as evidence supporting the environmental thesis is greatly diminished, as Dr. Pesta indicated. Environmentalists treat SES as an environment-only factor. Hereditarians see SES as being at least partly dependent upon genetic differences in intelligence. So, how can we tout SES as an "environmental" factor, as in Muntuwandi's outline? The same could be said for length of education, quality of education, and other so-called "environmental" factors. To avoid this problem, we needs to present the potential variables independent of the "environmental/hereditarian" dichotomy. --Aryaman (talk) 18:39, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- When you have few minutes could you review the feedback I provided about your outline? With respect to your comment above, yes genes are shaped by environment, and environment is shaped by the products of genes. I don't think anyone disputes those facts. A.Prock (talk) 19:22, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- You are correct, genes are shaped by environment, and environment is shaped by the products of genes. However this is completely unrelated to issues like SES and the quality of education. Genes are shaped by the environment only over tens of thousands of years. And like Soylent Green, "the products of genes" is people. TechnoFaye Kane 04:53, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- Slrubenstein requested that I take some of Muntuwandi's "reasonable" points into consideration, but without identifying them. If Slrubenstein could tell me exactly what he would like to see integrated into the outline I proposed, we could perhaps make some progress here.
- Aprock suggested we describe the environmental position as claiming that both environmental and genetic factors account for the IQ gap, but that in terms of overall impact, the environmental factors far outweigh genetic factors. I find myself wondering if either Nisbett or Lewontin (or Jensen, for that matter) would agree to this, and I'm particularly curious as to what, then, all the fuss has been about, but let's grant this point without debate for the sake of getting somewhere with this mediation. As for the remainder of his points:
- The material on "caste-like minorities" is included in my outline under "Discrimination" (I don't see more than a brief paragraph warranted here).
- There should BE no section about "discrimination" unless you can find academic studies showing that it explains the race/IQ gap. I know of no such studies, which is unsurprising because a) I don't know jack shit about it, which is why I listen to the experts, and b) the only effect discrimination could have in IQ results would be if Rushton dimmed the lights in the room when blacks took the test, as rubenstien suggested. TechnoFaye Kane 04:21, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- Discussion on the potential causation of the "Flynn effect" would take place under those factors which are proposed as explanations, e.g. nutrition, access to education, etc., though we wouldn't need to get into it in detail: cf. Flynn effect.
- I included the section on "Policy" for Slrubenstein. If you would like it removed, convince him it doesn't belong, and we're in business.
- Check the link under "Significance of group IQ differences" to see what kind of material is intended here.
- If you mean the 1995 APA report, it is 15 years old. Most significant work in the field has been done since then, in particular, published MRI volumetric studies indicating a smaller average brain size for blacks worldwide, even in very young fetuses. A better overview would be from a much more recent paper published by the APA (the summary of 30 years' research).
- However, the APA journal is not the is not the most respected source of opinion about intelligence. Except for an occasional "intelligence issue", the vast majority of their publication is about other topics in psychology. Intelligence is, and I strongly suggest we open this article with much more recent statements made by the experts who publish there. Fortunately, those experts agree. The contribution of environmental factors is minor. TechnoFaye Kane 04:43, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- To clarify we could change "socioeconomic status" to "socioeconomic environment". The basic idea is that does an improvement in the socioeconomic environment improve one's intelligence or IQ. We know from the Flynn effect, that this is at least partly true. Wapondaponda (talk) 22:25, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- @VA, I certainly think caste-like minorities is worthy more than a paragraph of mention, but that's just my perspective. There is still the issue of where the Flynn affect is discussed. Maybe I don't have a clear picture of how the outline is going to expand. Are each of the "Variables affecting intelligence..." going to be roughly two paragraphs in length? I wouldn't be against such a proposal, but it would help if it were explicit. I also think it needs to be clear which for which variables there is direct evidence. I'm not sure that the extended discussion of what IQ differences mean belongs in the article. A paragraph and a pointer to the relevant wiki article would probably be fine. A.Prock (talk) 23:35, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
We probably need to come to some consensus on how large should the article should be. There is a lot of information concerning the RI controversy, but we need to decide how much of it should be in the article. If we decide to have a large article, then we can try to fit almost every aspect of the controversy. If we decide to have a smaller article, then obviously not every point will be included. As previously mentioned, the suggested outline has taken into account article size, so some material has been left out, mostly the material which I thought wasn't central to the controversy. Again as previously mentioned regression to the mean has been mentioned by Rushton and Jensen in relation to the RI controversy, the subject is eligible for inclusion. My concerns were, is regression to the mean central to the controversy, and would including it give too much weight to either "hypothesis". I don't have strong feelings about leaving it out or including, but I do feel it is not the most important subjects of the controversy. Wapondaponda (talk) 22:25, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Does anyone think it might be worthwhile to split some the content into one or more sub-articles? I could see the “history of debate” section possibly being made into its own article, as well as the “policy implications” section, if we end up including that section at all. Using a few sub-articles is the way the 2006 version of the article handled the size issue, although we wouldn’t have to divide content in the same way that the 2006 version did. --Captain Occam (talk) 02:21, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- I agree. Only information relevant to the race/IQ gap should be in the main article. The presence of eugenics and nazis in every popular R/I article only confuses readers. TechnoFaye Kane 05:04, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- Aprock suggested we describe the environmental position as claiming that both environmental and genetic factors account for the IQ gap,
- NO!
- That necessarily means that the Genetic model asserts 100% genetic. But literally, no one anywhere, including rushton and his friends, believes that. The Flynn effect alone is sufficient to falsify it. I have never seen it seriously proposed, either.
- The environmental model has been described as "No genetic influence on IQ" in peer-reviewed literature as well as by our new mentor. Furthermore, it's unfair to readers who come here and see that every single model presented in Wikipedia includes blacks as being genetically stupider (or whatever the polite word is).
- We need to address the belief that there is no genetic component and that the IQ gap is all whitey's fault. Yes, you and I and all the scientists and everyone familiar with the research knows there is a genetic component, but probably 99% of the general population believes otherwise, and 0% genetic is the only explanation the media allows anyone to talk about.
- I further note that we need to present the environmental hypothesis as having been disproved, and we have to do it strongly and early in the article. The only non-laymen still advocating that the gap is 100% environment are tangential and uninvolved in intelligence research, like the sociologists. Their view should be a mere side note in the article, as it is in science. TechnoFaye Kane 02:52, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Aprock, it seems we're getting down to the scraps now, which is good. I can't predict how long each section is going to be, but I don't think this body of editors will allow any section to grow past what is absolutely necessary to convey the necessary information. There is some talk of splitting the article down. I request that we hold off on pursuing that until we get the rough draft finished and can hand it over to Dr. Pesta for a critical review. Can we give David the green light for revising the article? --Aryaman (talk) 12:50, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- I don't have any problem with David starting writing, but we still need a section which describes the Flynn affect. The "Significance..." section as presented by the link has nothing to do with race and intelligence and should be removed. Likewise, go ahead and remove the policy implications sections. If someone else really wants it in, they'll speak up. A.Prock (talk) 14:43, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see any problem discussing the Flynn effect, and have placed this in the introduction to "Intelligence test score results". There is, however, a distinction to be made between the observation itself and possible causes - on which there is no agreement other than the assumption that it is primarily environmental in origin. All this can be mentioned in the same paragraph(s), but given the existence of Flynn effect, I don't see much justification in repeating that content here, especially given that the very next section will go into these potential factors in some depth. In short, the Flynn effect is a good segue between the test score results and the discussion of variables, and I'd like to keep it that way if possible.
- I have a very hard time seeing the "Significance" section as having "nothing to do with race and intelligence", and I'm pretty sure DJ and Occam would agree with me here. I'm certainly open for further arguments or for suggestions regarding reframing the material, but "off-topic" won't do it for me.
- The section helps to explain why this issue is seen as an important one and what real-world impact the IQ gap has for individuals and groups. It could do with some reorganization and a thorough copy-edit, but there is helpful information there, such as that under "Practical importance", "Controlling for IQ", and "High-achieving minorities". As I see it, this is definitely on-topic and is as important to the discussion as our presentation of variables. --Aryaman (talk) 17:52, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- I believe that establishing the appropriate outline is key to the long term stability of the article. I don't think we should rush into writing the article without a firm agreement on the outline. As David Kane stated, we shouldn't waste his time. We wouldn't want David to write the article only for editors who have signed on to this mediation to have fundamental disagreements with what would have been written. This is a summary of my concerns regarding the outline suggested by Varoon.
- Pros
- The outline is quite detailed and well thought out
- Concerns
- "Group differences in intelligence"- This is a disputed statement. There is less of a dispute about group differences in psychometric test scores. Even less dispute about the overall variation in test scores
- Data gathering methods - Interesting suggestion, but considering article size, do we really need a full section on data gathering methods. Furthermore, there are numerous data gathering methods that may have little in common. The methods Richard Lynn uses to compute National IQs may be quite different from the methods used in the US. Pesta et al. do not use a standardized IQ test but instead use a proprietary test called the WPT. Would I be incorrect to state that we could summarize "data gathering methods" in two broad statements
- SIRE is the main variable for race
- IQ or some other psychometric score is the variable for intelligence
- Significance of group IQ differences - On one hand this section highlights the need to address the problem of low IQ to improve the quality of life for the individuals affected, regardless of their race. OTOH, the information contained is somewhat US-centric. While a correlation between IQ and social outcomes may be universal, we cannot assume that a certain IQ causes the same outcomes in every part of the world. In addition, the correlation between IQ and social outcomes occurs intra-racially. A possible alternative would be to include one statement on the correlation between Iq and social outcomes and redirect to Intelligence quotient#Positive correlations with IQ for more information.
- Wapondaponda (talk) 18:03, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- The section helps to explain why this issue is seen as an important one and what real-world impact the IQ gap has for individuals and groups. It could do with some reorganization and a thorough copy-edit, but there is helpful information there, such as that under "Practical importance", "Controlling for IQ", and "High-achieving minorities". As I see it, this is definitely on-topic and is as important to the discussion as our presentation of variables. --Aryaman (talk) 17:52, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- The main sentence of the opening paragraph read:
this sounds like a perfect explanation for why it's not relevant to this article. I'm really having a hard time seeing how variation which is mostly unrelated to race is relevant for an article which is about race. On the other hand, I would support the idea of summarizing and linking to Intelligence quotient#Positive correlations with IQ. A.Prock (talk) 18:05, 18 March 2010 (UTC)"The distribution of IQ scores among individuals of each race overlap substantially. In a random sample of equal numbers of US Blacks and Whites, Jensen[7] estimates most variance in IQ would be unrelated to race or social class."
- The main sentence of the opening paragraph read:
- I agree. I also agree with Muntuwandi that it is important to be clear that SIRE is the main variable for race and IQ or some other psychometric score is the variable for intelligence - I think his point about IQ, not intelligence, is important. If we can incorporate these points into Varoon's outline I would feel much beter about moving forward with it. As to the US-centric issue ... I don't see any way around this. The whole debate is largely motivated by US politics, and almost all if not all reliable research is done in the US. I do not see this as a problem as long as the article makes it clear; that much of the debate and research is driven by US policy concerns seems like an obvious an important fact that needs to be included. If there is any comparable, relevant research done in other countries, we should of course include that. But practically speaking I think the key thing is to figure out where in the outline to discuss why it is that so much of the research and debate are centered in the US. I think this is important because if or when more research emerges from other countries, it will be obvious to people which section can and should be up-dated and used to accomodate the new material. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:15, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- Two suggested corrections to points raised in the thread above.
- (1) Based on my reading I believe there really is a substantial minority of scholars who claim that the best estimate of the genetic contribution to group IQ differences is zero and a further subset who believes that we can reasonable exclude a genetic contribution altogether. Conversely, it also appears that there's a substantial minority who believe that a zero genetic contribution is unlikely and a further subset that believe that a zero contribution can be excluded based on the available evidence. Meanwhile, there seems to be a substantial number of scholars who believe that neither hypothesis can be excluded currently, although they may vary in what likelihoods they assign to each. To work around this diversity of opinion, I suggest attributing views to the author's of individual publication as even the views of single authors may not be clear from one publication to another over time, and I recommend including supporting quotations in the footnotes to help report views accurately.
- (2) Perhaps it's not obvious, but the finding represented by this quote -- "The distribution of IQ scores among individuals of each race overlap substantially. In a random sample of equal numbers of US Blacks and Whites, Jensen[7] estimates most variance in IQ would be unrelated to race or social class." -- it not trivial or obvious a priori. Further, it's not obvious from this finding alone, to what extent (a) other socially important variables like education and employment vary between groups and (b) to what extent those variables covary with IQ between groups. The "significance" section should address what if anything is known about the social importance of IQ/intelligence differences between groups. --DJ (talk) 18:39, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- RE(1) Certainly, and this is why I specifically said that the "environmental hypothesis" needed to be changed to reflect what scientific understanding is. To rephrase again: (a) there is direct evidence for environmental influence, but no direct evidence for genetic influence (b) there amount of variation that environment can cause is greater than the variation seen. That is not to say that genetic factors aren't present, but that environmental factors are a much more likely cause of the variation.
- RE(2) That may not be an 'obvious' result to you, but it is a fairly trivial result which falls out of statistics. I also don't see the need to include discussions of "race and education", "race and employment", "race and <any social variable>" just because the social variable correlates with IQ. The article is about race an intelligence. As I said above, I'm happy to include a summary of the various things which correlate to IQ and link to it. Creating large sections based on those correlations is outside the scope of this article's subject. A.Prock (talk) 19:18, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Re: "Group differences in intelligence": Where is the dispute here? We're allowed to say there is a significant difference in the results of tests which measure intelligence, but we're not allowed to say there is a significant difference in intelligence? If there is more substance here than semantics, I'm missing it. Regardless, if others agree, I'm fine with renaming it to "Group differences in IQ" provided that would settle the matter.
Re: "Data gathering methods": I'm surprised to see objections to this, unless there's a misunderstanding regarding what's intended. Methods for the manipulation of data are not to be discussed here. This section is simply for mentioning the main tests used to determine IQ, with links where appropriate, as well as the criteria used to establish race, i.e. SIRE. I'm also suprised to see this regarded to as "Muntuwandi's" suggestion, as it has been an integral part of the outline since I first posted it. I can't see the difference between what I've written and what's being requested, so help me out.
Re: "Significance": The article is about "race and IQ". How is material on the social significance of IQ differences between races not relevant here? And where would the rest of the obviously relevant material (such as "Correcting for IQ") go?
Aprock quoted the current opening sentence of the section as proving that the material is irrelevant. The argument he provided makes no sense to me. By the same token we would be justified in eliminating all the literature which claims there is no significant correlation between race and IQ, because - follow the logic here - the article is about the correlation between race and IQ. I'd prefer if someone other than Aprock could try and clarify to me why this section is irrelevant to this topic.
As a note: I'll be busy over the next few days, and won't have much time to keep up with the minutiae of this discussion. I request that the editors overlook the minor details (which is really all we're discussing at this point) and get on with revising the article. If it's still an issue, just tell David to focus on those parts of the outline which are generally agreed upon, which is the bulk of it, and we can work out the details afterwards. --Aryaman (talk) 19:10, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, the article is about "race and IQ", not "race and employment", or "race and crime in the US". IQ correlates with many things, and the nature of that correlation is not well understood. There is a lot of debate about the degree to which your status raises your IQ and the degree to which your IQ raises your status. Remember Correlation does not imply causation. Including long discussions of the things IQ correlates with goes far afield the topic of the article, and tends to imply that the reason for these differences is due to IQ, not vice versa. A.Prock (talk) 19:32, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- Aprock, the fact that IQ causes these things is discussed by a lot of the source literature about this topic, including the APA report. If you don’t think we can assume IQ causes them, you’re welcome to think that, but the source literature from both the hereditarian and environmental perspective says that we can. And our job as Wikipedia editors is to accurately represent what the source material says, even if we disagree with it.
- Varoon Arya asked if there’s anyone other than you who thinks the “significance” section should be excluded, and you’re the only person who’s responded. In addition to me and VA, I know that DJ approves of the inclusion of this section, and I’m pretty sure David.Kane does also. If you’re the only person who disagrees with us about this, I think you’re who’ll need to compromise here, unless you’re hoping you’ll be able to convince all four of us to change our minds about it. --Captain Occam (talk) 09:39, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
- "Four of us"? What am I, the cheerleader? The mascot? The comic relief? The hell with that! I say we do NOT need to waste precious space telling readers what other people think about the R/I gap. We need to present dry, neutral information, particularly in such a volatile topic. If you insist on including this political section, do it in a sub-article and link to it.
- ...And that now makes it 2 to 4 -- enough to declare nonconsensus unless the gang of four decides to tolerate a nonpolitical, non-opinion, objective data-centered article. TechnoFaye Kane 19:17, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, our job as editors is to be accurate. Please review Correlation does not imply causation. One of the facts that seems like it should be well accepted by most editors here is that environment has a significant effect on IQ. Given that it seems like it should be clear that correlation with respect to these social variables, which may affect IQ, is not a clear indication of causation. If you have some reliable references which describe broad support for IQ causing specific things, I'd be happy to include them in the article. As it is, IQ correlates with a lot of things, but determining causality has been elusive. Please review Intelligence quotient#Positive correlations with IQ. And for the umpteenth time, please consider taking the information at WP:DEADLINE to heart. A.Prock (talk) 15:33, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
- TechnoFaye, I know you’re pretty strongly pro-hereditarian. Are you telling me that you think the IQ gap is strongly influenced by genetics, but you don’t agree with including information that says the IQ gap has these practical effects? I really thought you believed genes had some role in causing the racial achievement gap, which depends not only on the IQ difference being partially genetic; it also depends the IQ gap affecting the things that the “significance” section says that it does.
- Aprock, are you going to address my point? Whether or not correlation implies causation is irrelevant here. If the source material says that IQ causes these things, then we can’t second-guess it.
- If you need a reference for this, just look at the APA report, which you’ve already agreed should be one of the main sources you use. I’ll quote a few parts of it that talk about this:
- “This implies that, across a wide range of occupations, intelligence test performance accounts for some 29% of the variance in job performance.”
- “In general, intelligence tests measure only some of the many personal characteristics that are relevant to life in contemporary America. Those characteristics are never the only influence on outcomes, though in the case of school performance they may well be the strongest.”
- Pay attention to their word choice. They refer to intelligence “accounting for” variance in job performance and intelligence “influencing” social outcomes. That’s saying more than just that the two are correlated; that’s saying that one is causing the other. If this is what the source material says, then this is what we need to say in the article. Got it? --Captain Occam (talk) 19:34, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
- I'm happy to address your points. I'd appreciate it though if you didn't brush off my points. Correlation does not imply causation is very much part of the problem here. Asserting that it's not isn't really helpful. With respect to job performance, that's not mentioned in the version that was linked to: here, but if you'd like to include that, I'm sure we can come to some kind of understanding. The point isn't that IQ isn't an important factor with respect to many other things. The point is that that is a topic which relates to IQ, not Race and Intelligence. Yes, IQ relates to intelligence, but descriptions of the practical effects of IQ alone belong in articles about IQ, as they apply to much more than just race issues. As I've said countless times, I am fully in favor of summarizing [[3]] and linking to it here. Reproducing content that is better described elsewhere isn't a good idea. A.Prock (talk) 20:57, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
- Aprock, this article is about the type of intelligence that IQ measures; that’s why we’ve been discussing whether the article should be renamed to “Race and IQ”. So things that correlate with IQ, and that the source material says are caused by it, deserve to be mentioned here. Moreover, the APA report actually uses the word “intelligence” in reference to them, so even if you’re going to claim that intelligence and IQ are two separate things, the APA report is still discussing intelligence specifically.
- The APA report doesn’t mention every specific thing that intelligence affects, because it’s only a fairly brief overview of this topic. If you need to be convinced that there are other sources which discuss the fact that intelligence causes these things, rather than just correlating with them, why don’t you look at some of the source material used by the linked section that talks about this? The practical importance of g (especially as it relates to race and intelligence) is probably the primary topic that Linda Gottfredson writes about, so it would be possible to provide at least 20 papers from her that describe this causal relationship.
- Mike: I agree that Varoon Arya’s outline is a major improvement over what the article currently has, and I’ve said that a few times. However, I won’t be ready to accept it if it doesn’t include the “significance” information. --Captain Occam (talk) 21:49, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
- I'd appreciate it if you could respond to my point about including extended sections which are primarily about IQ and not about race. This is not an article about IQ and it's many correlates. It's an article about race and intelligence, which is mostly about the relationship between SIRE and IQ. Summarizing and pointing to the appropriate content is a more than reasonable compromise. A.Prock (talk) 22:42, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
- This information is about more than just what things IQ affects, though. It’s about how these effects of IQ contribute to the racial achievement gap, both between blacks and whites and between whites and Asians. The relationship between the IQ gap and the achievement gap is one of the major topics of the literature about race and intelligence, so if our article is going to cover this literature, we need to include this aspect of it.
- If you think the section about this that the article had in January placed too much of an emphasis on the general relationship between IQ and social variables, and too little emphasis on specifically how this relates to the racial achievement gap, then that’s something we can change. All that matters is that this aspect of the source literature be covered in some capacity. --Captain Occam (talk) 23:28, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
- This section is only in the January version because you were trying to use the content developed on another page. As I said back then when you were trying to use that content, it's fine if you want to discuss adding that content. Please don't represent that content as being from a past version of this page. I'll let others speak up about how they feel about the alternatives of summarizing and linking versus the content presented here. A.Prock (talk) 00:01, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
- Huh? How is this relevant? Discussing this content is what we’re doing right now, so what’s the point of bringing up that you think this section’s history requires us to do what we’re doing already?
- If there’s some way that you think this section’s history requires us to treat it differently from anything else on Varoon Arya’s outline, you’ll need to explain what and why. --Captain Occam (talk) 00:51, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
- Even if you aren’t willing to regard Between-group differences in IQ as having been the same article as this one under a different name, something you should keep in mind is that the content in question is highly similar to this section in the December 2006 version of the article. I’m pretty certain that when DJ wrote the section that was in January’s version of the article, he was modeling its structure after this part of the 2006 version. So in that respect it is still from the R/I article, although from a version that’s a few years old. --Captain Occam (talk) 03:40, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
question - If I take Occam literally, then he will support Varoon Arya’s outline so long as it includes the “significance” information in some capacity. can we agree that it will do so, accept the outline, and leave the question of how far this 'capacity' goes until later in the writing? --Ludwigs2 03:51, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
- That’s fine with me, as long as it’s fine with everyone else.
- Something I think it’s important to keep in mind here is that I’m not the only person who cares about this information being included; DJ and Varoon Arya have made it pretty clear that they care about this also. So Aprock’s and my opinions aren’t the only two that matter about this. --Captain Occam (talk) 05:37, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
- I know, but I thought the discussion was starting to tailspin a bit, so I wanted to refocus on what agreements we have. --Ludwigs2 05:45, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
- The short answer is no. The long answer is above. I certainly won't view this as resolved until several other editors outside the group that wrote the original section weigh in. I'll also note that my concerns about the inclusion of the Flynn affect hasn't been addressed, and the summary of the environmental hypothesis hasn't been updated. Finally, I'd also appreciate it if you could reign in Occam's bullying behavior. Having him constantly pushing deadlines, asserting premature consensus, ignoring my concerns, and taking a "my way or the highway" attitude only contributes to creating more conflict, not resolving mediation. A.Prock (talk) 06:31, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
- Aprock, you need to make it clear just what your "concerns" are regarding the "Flynn effect". It's part of the outline and will be discussed in its own paragraph after the test score results. "Extended" discussion will not take place in this article, as we can easily point to > Flynn effect.
- The description of the environmental position as it ends up in the article will not differ from the description appearing in reviews such as that of Jensen & Rushton. If you think this is inappropriate, I request that you re-read their description (I copied and pasted it above), as I cannot detect any difference between what you're requesting and what is written there.
- Regarding the "Significance" section, this article can and should discuss how IQ and its correlates affect races and the societies of which they are a part. If you can demonstrate that this material is already contained in another article, or would better fit in another article, then please do so and we will aim towards providing a summary and appropriate linking. If not, then please let it pass so we can get to work.
- I'm perfectly fine with summarizing and linking to the Flynn affect. The question is where the summary occurs. I think that's also perfectly reasonable approach with respect correlates with IQ. Your "Significance" section as described is too broad. Do we include information about genetic determinism there? What about white supremacism? Do we include information about scientific racism? As presented, the model of your "Significance" section from "Between Group Difference in IQ" is very much unbalanced, OR and POV. If you're in a hurry to start editing, allow me to suggest leaving the "Significance" section out for now. Then we can discuss the particulars of that section while the rest of the outline is developed. A.Prock (talk) 16:22, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
- Do you object to the placement of the summary of the Flynn effect as it currently stands in the outline? If so, make a case for moving it. Otherwise, I consider the matter resolved.
- Aprock, how does white supremacism tie into the significance of the differences in group IQ? I fail to see the connection, and I'd venture to say you're the only one who does. I don't think it's necessary to come up with a list of things not to include in this section. Please: WP:UCS.
- You started out by saying the section has "nothing to do with race and intelligence", and now you're saying it's "unbalanced", "OR" and "POV". Well, if you want this argument to be taken seriously, prove it. Demonstrate to the rest of us how this entire section violates WP:OR or WP:SYNTH or WP:NPOV, and we'll see what we can do about it. --Aryaman (talk) 17:13, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
- The should be a discussion of the Flynn affect in the "Environmental Interpretations" section, as that is exactly what that is. From the summary: "This section should discuss the social and/or economical impact group difference in IQ - perceived or real - have on both society at large as well as the groups in question." White supremacy groups certainly perceive a difference, and this perception affects how they present their group and those who are not white. This is exactly why it's too vague. As you say, the section is problematic in many ways. If you're really interested in moving forward with editing ASAP, then I suggest you exclude it from the outline for the time being. If you'd like to discuss specific content for that section, I would suggest you begin by listing the subsections in this outline, especially as you seem to want that section to be fairly large in size and scope. A.Prock (talk) 17:26, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
- The "Flynn effect" is an observed phenomenon of a rise in average IQ scores around the world over time. It is not an "environmental interpretation" as to the causation of the racial IQ gap. In fact, the "Flynn effect" itself stands in need of interpretation - because it is a phenomenon, not a theory of causation.
- Aprock, this is becoming tedious. Are you going to suggest the "Significance" section could also contain an account of the 1967 Newark riots because Black and White people were involved and some of those White folks might have thought some of those Blacks folks were less intelligent? Please see WP:UCS.
- You're objecting to the section against at least 4 other editors who think it's worth including and who have no problems with being able to exclude material on white supremacism and whatnot without stating such explicitly beforehand. I've asked you to demonstrate how this section violates WP:OR, WP:SYNTH or WP:NPOV, which is not some extraordinary request. In lieu of that demonstration, I see no reason to take these objections seriously. If you want the section excluded, you'll need to have a better argument than WP:JDLI. --Aryaman (talk) 17:59, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
okay, this is getting too personal. can someone please explain to me what exactly is being disagreed over here? how much of the outline is acceptable to all, and what are the specific points of contention. please try to do this without making any reference to people at all - e.g. "it's a dispute over whether X should be included at A or at B". --Ludwigs2 18:33, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
- WRT the Flynn effect, yes it is a phenomenon, for which the vast majority if explanations are environmental. I'm really not interested in discussing specific content from BG/I, as we are talking about the outline for this section. If you're saying that that content will be the model for this article, then we should update the outline to reflect that and discuss. I take it that you are opposed to moving forward with editing the rest of the article until the particulars of that section are worked out. Is that the case? A.Prock (talk) 18:34, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
page structure - convenience break 4 [3/20/10]
- The basic problem is that the description of the "Significance..." section in the outline is vague. It's not clear how much content is intended to be presented there, but the reference content from the BG/I article is five subsections constituting 1700 words. If it's going to take up that much space the description in the outline here needs to be extended. From reading the BG/I content, it appears to be a data dump drawn in great part from The Bell Curve and other work by those authors, as well as many references to work from hereditarian authors (Pinker, Hernstein, Rushton, Lynn). The data is presented in such a way as to support the thesis that the differences in outcome are directly related to racial differences in IQ, something which has not been established, and as such constitues WP:SYNTH or WP:OR. And yet, even the BG/I content makes the case that this information doesn't relate to racial differences in IQ.
.A.Prock (talk) 18:56, 20 March 2010 (UTC)In a random sample of equal numbers of US Blacks and Whites, Jensen[7] estimates most variance in IQ would be unrelated to race or social class
- Vague is sometimes good. is there any disagreement about what to include, or is it all about how much to include? If the latter, I suggest we start writing and let the how much discussion evolve as we go along. --Ludwigs2 19:18, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
- best not to speak for them. VA, Occam, can we get on with some of the writing and leave this detail hanging for a bit? --Ludwigs2 20:43, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
- The outline proposed seems very much like Rushton and Jensen 2005 (Thirty years....), as the section headings are almost identical. There are obvious weighting issues. As for the "significance" section, it comes down again to a space issue. We could have the tables that were included in previous articles, or we can place a link to Intelligence quotient#Positive correlations with IQ and summarize the significance in two statements:
- IQ is predictive of social outcomes such as SES, educational achievement, employment and health.
- The correlation between IQ and social outcomes is found within all racial categories, but since in the US the average IQ test score of blacks is lower than that of whites, blacks are expected to be underrepresented with regard to positive social outcomes and overrepresented with regard to negative social outcomes.
- The outline proposed seems very much like Rushton and Jensen 2005 (Thirty years....), as the section headings are almost identical. There are obvious weighting issues. As for the "significance" section, it comes down again to a space issue. We could have the tables that were included in previous articles, or we can place a link to Intelligence quotient#Positive correlations with IQ and summarize the significance in two statements:
- We discussed extensively discussed the issue of "Sociological Race vs Genes" and there was a tentative consensus to go with the AAPA report. However, Varoon's outline has not dedicated any section to the specific discussion of race. Do we need a section that discusses the various concepts of race with regards to R/I controversy. Wapondaponda (talk) 00:09, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Ludwig, I do care about getting on with writing the article, so I would normally say yes, but I really have a problem with acting like there’s something left to be resolved about this issue. We’ve just discussed it at least as much as should be necessary, and acting like it still hasn’t been resolved seems like it would be creating an open invitation to have to rehash this entire discussion at some point in the future. Most of VA’s and my own points about this remain unaddressed, and Aprock hasn’t supported his own assertion that the section he has a problem with violates WP:OR, WP:SYNTH, and WP:NPOV. VA thought this was a case of WP:JDLI; what it looks like to me is that he’s just disagreeing with us for the sake of disagreeing, although he’s having trouble coming up with anything substantive to disagree with.
- On one hand, I certainly don’t like the idea of holding up editing the article because of something like this, but on the other hand I also don’t want us to have to act like there are still “issues” related to this section other than Aprock’s own personal dissatisfaction, and that we’ll need to have another lengthy discussion about in the future. Are those really the only two options here? --Captain Occam (talk) 00:36, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- If you care about getting on with writing the article, then it's up to you to seek some level of compromise. As it is currently presented, that section has multiple issues that several editors have mentioned. Several different suggestions have been proposed to move the mediation forward:
- summarize and link to Intelligence quotient#Positive correlations with IQ
- Be more specific about what the section covers
- Flesh out the outline
- Drop the section from the outline for now, and discuss further
- You've rejected every single one of those suggestions. If the only path to resolution for you is that everyone accept things as they are, I expect this will take a long time to resolve, regardless of any declarations you make. A.Prock (talk) 01:53, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- If you care about getting on with writing the article, then it's up to you to seek some level of compromise. As it is currently presented, that section has multiple issues that several editors have mentioned. Several different suggestions have been proposed to move the mediation forward:
- Yes, you’ve brought up all of those suggestions before, and every time another editor has pressed you about why you require them, you ended up eventually changing the subject in mid-discussion. For example, when I was trying to get you to justify what you think is wrong with the “significance” section, eventually you just stopped responding to my points, and brought up the fact that the article had existed under a different name when this section was introduced in December. From the fact that you stopped trying to support your argument about this or responding to any of my points, I figured you were giving up on trying to get this section removed, but here it is again: the same demand you were making before, with the same arguments you made and then abandoned last time, without any attempt to address what’s been said in response.
- There are two things you need to realize about this. The first is that for all your talk about wanting compromise, the only “compromise” allowed by your current behavior would be to accept your demands simply because you’re demanding them. And the reason for that is because any actual compromise would require you to discuss our own points with us, and work with us to come up with a solution that takes both your and our concerns into account. As I said, when we’ve tried to do this, you haven’t responded to what we were trying to discuss, and brought up non sequiturs instead. And the second thing you need to realize is that you are the only editor here who’s doing this. Slrubenstein and Muntuwandi have suggestions for the outline also, but they’ve been able to discuss those suggestions in a reasonable way, and I think the issues they’ve raised are mostly resolved by this point. On the other hand, when VA specifically asked if there were any editors other than you who could justify what you were demanding, you were the only person who responded.
- There’s a word for what you’re doing, and it’s called stonewalling. You’re right that this problem may take a long time to resolve, but you can’t blame that on the rest of us. Varoon Arya, DJ, David.Kane, mikemikev and I are all fine with the outline in its current state, and Technofaye, Muntuwandi and Slrubenstein have been willing to work with us to find ways for their concerns to be addressed. The reason this will take a long time, if it does, will be because of you seem to be either unwilling or unable to do this. --Captain Occam (talk) 02:37, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- I’m fine with the outline being fleshed out, if you can be specific about what aspects of the article it should go into more detail about, but if you want that you need to talk to Varoon Arya about it. It’s his outline, not mine. --Captain Occam (talk) 03:01, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Please don't conclude anything until the major players have had a chance to read all of this. It's been 4 months, it can wait a couple of days.
ALSO: did "we" decide to rename this "race and IQ?" I very much hope not. Decisions are being made too fast. If an editor misses a single day of this, he/she finds they were left out.
ALSO: is there a single place where we document all our decisions so we don't have to dig through all this when we need to refer to them when writing and editing?
Ok, I'm going to TRY to catch up now... TechnoFaye Kane 04:02, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- I don’t think the article is going to get renamed. An equal number of users approved and disapproved of renaming it (4 to 4), which obviously isn’t a consensus, and those who wanted to rename it weren’t agreed on whether it should be called “Race and IQ”, “Ethnicity and IQ”, or “Ethnicity and intelligence research”.
- As for creating a list somewhere of the things we’ve decided thus far, that’s something Ludwig said here that he was going to do. He said, “I'll also make a summary of our established points to date later today (unless one of you does it first).” He said that on March 17th, so if you’re wondering why he hasn’t done it yet, you should ask him. --Captain Occam (talk) 04:29, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
A.Prock, there's a good example of a discussion of "WHY STUDY RACIAL DIFFERENCES?" in this paper. Social significance and suitability for study could be discussed in the same or different sections. --DJ (talk) 22:27, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Although I see no real justification for even suggesting that we should do so, I'm willing to let the "Significance" section sit until after the first draft on the condition that we can include any information which is unarguably relevant in that draft provided it can be incorporated in a reasonable fashion. --Aryaman (talk) 14:23, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- I'm happy to spend some time trying to figure out what significant results there are from the research, and what significant societal affects there are of racial IQ differences whether environmental or genetic in origin. Starting a draft on everything else at this point is fine with me, but there are probably a couple of other editors that should stamp such a working outline before we risk wasting a primary author's time. A.Prock (talk) 16:24, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- Everyone currently active in this discussion has had ample opportunity to comment on the outline. You and Muntuwandi were the primary objectors. Muntuwandi is excused, as he is apparently too rattled by the word "stupid" to follow up on the responses made to his concerns. I'd say we're ready to start revising the article. But, wait! We need to give the dissatisfied stonewallers among us yet another chance to scrap everything we've done over the last weeks and throw us back to square one, don't we? Absolutely! This is Wikipedia, after all. So, I suppose another inconclusive straw poll is in order. Ludwigs? --Aryaman (talk) 16:39, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- VA, do you really think it’s necessary to make this large of a concession based on the objections of a singe editor, when at least four other users want to include this section? What I’ve been requesting for the past few days is for Aprock to bring up a specific problem with this section for which he’s both able to support his assertion that it’s a problem, and able to provide specific suggestions about how it could be improved. If he’s the one who’s having a problem with what the majority wants, it seems like it should be his responsibility to suggest a reasonable improvement over it and support his argument that it’s an improvement. If he isn’t able to do this, which he seems not to be, that implies that this section is fine the way it is. --Captain Occam (talk) 16:48, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- I can certainly say that I don't think it should be necessary. Applying these standards across Wikipedia would result in single editors being able to have large, well-referenced sections removed from articles simply by typing "POV" - and then dragging the involved editors through months of "debate" just to get it restored. It's beyond dispute that at least some of this material is going in the article, and the normal course of action would be to include the section and let the objecting editor tag what are, in his opinion, "dubious", "unreferenced" or otherwise "questionable" statements, or even the whole section, provided he can justify it to the other editors on the talk page and provide some kind of actionable criticism. But I think there's a bit of WP:POINT involved here, so I'm willing to let this section sit for the time being with the caveat I mentioned above, i.e. that any indisputably topical material be incorporated into the first draft where possible (sans "Significance" title, naturally). --Aryaman (talk) 17:38, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- I don't need to be excused by anyone. I believe it is the other way around, I posted my concerns above about the subject of race not being included in Varoon's proposal, but the concern has not been responded to. From my experience over the years the R/I article tends to attract bitter and angry editors who frequently say nasty stuff. So this is not an article that I would like to be indefinitely involved with, I also hope for a quick resolution so as to move on to work on other more lighthearted articles. So far Varoon has condescendingly dismissed any concerns about his proposal. As long as these concerns remain outstanding, then we won't have a consensus, and will have difficulties in getting to a new R/I article. The whole point of the mediation, is to reach a consensus by making compromises. So if you would like to get something, you have to give away something. Wapondaponda (talk) 19:40, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- I can certainly say that I don't think it should be necessary. Applying these standards across Wikipedia would result in single editors being able to have large, well-referenced sections removed from articles simply by typing "POV" - and then dragging the involved editors through months of "debate" just to get it restored. It's beyond dispute that at least some of this material is going in the article, and the normal course of action would be to include the section and let the objecting editor tag what are, in his opinion, "dubious", "unreferenced" or otherwise "questionable" statements, or even the whole section, provided he can justify it to the other editors on the talk page and provide some kind of actionable criticism. But I think there's a bit of WP:POINT involved here, so I'm willing to let this section sit for the time being with the caveat I mentioned above, i.e. that any indisputably topical material be incorporated into the first draft where possible (sans "Significance" title, naturally). --Aryaman (talk) 17:38, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- Muntuwandi, I assume you're referring to: "Do we need a section that discusses the various concepts of race with regards to R/I controversy[?]" That's an open question which the other editors apparently did not feel like entertaining. If you think the article needs to discuss race in isolation above and beyond mentioning that SIRE is the means used to determine it for the purpose of these studies, you'll get a better response by making a coherent suggestion which other editors can consider and comment upon.
- To everyone who has made a coherent request regarding this outline, I've tried to provide an appropriate response, either in the way of reasoning or changes to the outline itself. If you re-read the discussion, you might notice that I've also been willing to make concessions to some of your requests, though you have not followed up on them - which is a non-verbal indication that either they don't really matter to you or that you are more interested in trying to find fault rather than working towards an agreeable solution. So, if you still have "outstanding concerns", now is the time to make them known. --Aryaman (talk) 21:04, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- Muntuwandi, if you re-read 'Sociological Race vs. Genes', you'll find SLR and I agreed not to have a section on the meaning of race. The section dropped off with him unable to explain how the AAPA report was relevant. Feel free to go back to the issue (there not here). But it's a bit late to expect to affect the first revision. mikemikev (talk) 21:12, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, this is what we agreed to "Of course for any source in question we use that source's definition of race. That is not what "point of reference" means. Our NPOV policy requires us to distinguish between majority, minority, mainstream, and fringe views. To do that we need a point of reference. I think that the official positions of the American Anthropological Association and the American Association of Physical Anthropologists (especially the latter) are the most reliable and significant points of reference for gaging this." I continue to feel very strongly that we abide by this to keep moving the article forward. As I understand it, Muntuwandi's main point is that in the data we have on intelligence, race is SIRE and this needs to be clearly stated when introducing and discussing the data. I agree 100%. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:09, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
No, we didn't agree this. This is just one of the silly things you said, and it is very clear I did not agree. If you lie again I will report you. mikemikev (talk) 23:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Convenience break 5 - 3/25/10
I don't like the fact that this has gone to ANI, but I do think that Mathsci has a point that I've let things get a bit out of control here. so, I am going to start taking stronger measures, as follows:
- cutting short any discussion that start to wander across multiple issues, or that rehashes old grievances.
- forcing compromises by fiat where there is stolid disagreement on trivial issues
- enforcing a one strike civility rule: basically this means I will tolerate one mild incivility over any three day period, and if you commit two, I will bench you for three days - no posting on this page or any related page until I give the go ahead. note, even mild incivility (such as mikemikev's comment above - "This is just one of the silly things you said, [...] If you lie again [...]" - count, and I will enforce this by refactoring any comments made during that 3 day period, no matter how good they may be.
Stay clear, stay focused, stay concise, and do not comment on other editors if you wish to continue to participate in this mediation.
tomorrow evening (unless you all reach an agreement ahead of me) I will choose an outline which will be some compromise based on the discussions above. no one will like it, I'm sure, but it will work as a starting point so that david can begin editing. we can hash out further details based on that decision as a starting point.
Different approach - let's see how it works. --Ludwigs2 08:32, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- Well Ludwig, I'm glad you are going to go ahead with something practical. We mostly seem to be discussing irrelevancies. I apologise for using the word 'silly' to refer to another editors comment. But I am a little unsure that identifying and warning about lying can be classed as incivility. mikemikev (talk) 12:24, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- Do not tell another editor that they lied. if you think they lied, produce a set of diffs that show some discrepancy in their language and ask them to clarify what they meant.
- There is no reason ever to confront another editor directly on their behavior. It is usually alright to do so in most cases, but it has become a bit of a bad habit in this mediation, so let's put a stop to it. --Ludwigs2 14:19, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- I think what we need is "mediation" in the strict sense of the term, e.g. someone who acts as a buffer between the individual editors and attempts to sort out the common ground. Expecting us to agree with each other is like expecting oil and water to mix. I'm happy with presenting my point of view regarding the article to Ludwigs. But I see no point in my dealing directly with any of the disputants on this page any further. Slrubenstein, Muntuwandi, Mathsci and I simply do not agree with each other, and I doubt very much that we ever will. Good mediation entails that the mediator identifies the point(s) of contention, listens carefully to the opposing views involved, making sure that all the relevant points have been understood, and proposes solutions which are as fair to both parties as the situation allows. Bad mediation is throwing the disputants in a room together and seeing which one tires first. We've had plenty of "bad" mediation thus far - which is not Ludwigs' fault, being the 4th mediator and having no hand in how the mediation was set up. But if we're talking about restructuring how things are going to work from now on, we might as well make the step towards "good" mediation. --Aryaman (talk) 14:52, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- I am not averse to being a buffer (and will be doing that more extensively from now on), but part of my beliefs about mediation is that it's not the mediator's job to dictate content. If you guys don't come to some consensus on your own, there will never be peace on the article. The problem this article has been having to date is that every editor seems to have their one or two points which they simply refuse to compromise on, and until everyone gets clear-headed enough to realize that this article will never be (can never be) written without some compromises from everyone, it will continue to be mired.
- this is the change in approach I am trying now: I'm going to insist on civility (since incivility seems to be a common tool here for avoiding compromises), and I am going to force compromises wherever I seem stubbornness over some triviality. perhaps if you cannot find it in your hearts to agree with each other about content, you can all find it in your hearts to disagree with me. making everyone equally unhappy is an odd kind of consensus, but it is consensus nonetheless. --Ludwigs2 15:32, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, I think the issue at the core of the original dispute, i.e. whether or not hereditarianism is "fringe" science, has been resolved. We've reviewed the literature, we've consulted experts, and it has become clear that hereditarianism is not "fringe" science, either by academic standards or by Wikipedia's standards, but is instead a socially controversial alternative theory of causation to the phenomenon in question. The resultant issue regarding the relative proportion of coverage (i.e. WP:UNDUE) should be resolvable based on that conclusion. --Aryaman (talk) 16:47, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
I agree, but I've noticed a number of editors still drawing some lines in the sand over the issue - mostly, I think, because they are unwilling to accept a 'there is no definitive answer to the question' approach.
- At any rate, I'm going to start pushing through some of the stuckness here. we will have a rough outline tonight, one way or another: we can argue over it for a couple of days, but I'm going to get Dave to start editing it in (this weekend, if possible) so that we can get some clarity on what it looks like and start haggling over issues of balance and presentation. --Ludwigs2 17:21, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- Ludwig, whenever you create your own version of the outline, I think you should keep in mind that Varoon Arya’s outline posted above is mostly supported by consensus at this point. A few users have raised concerns about it (particularly Aprock), but if you read the above discussion you’ll see that Aprock hasn’t been willing to detail what his problems are with this outline when we’ve pressed him about them, and in some cases when he’s been asked to justify his arguments about this he’s ended up just changing the subject. Other than these objections from Aprock (which he may have finally conceded by now, judging by the fact that he stopped commenting in the discussion about them), all of the disputes over VA’s outline are fairly minor.
- Muntuwandi’s outline has barely been discussed at all, and what discussion there has been about it has mostly consisted of editors explaining why they consider it completely unacceptable. So when you create your own version of the outline, I hope you’ll agree that the it should be based primarily on Varoon Arya’s.
- Incidentally, at this point I don’t think we should expect David.Kane to be able to edit the article. He initially said that he would be offline for a week and then back online as of the beginning of this week, but as of today he still hasn’t edited Wikipedia at all since the 12th. My comment on his userpage asking if he’s back yet also hasn’t received a response. If David.Kane doesn’t show up again sometime within the next few days, we’ll need to choose someone else to revise the article. The only two other users that we were able to agree would be acceptable to revise it were DJ and Varoon Arya, so in that case it’ll probably need to be one of them. --Captain Occam (talk) 18:23, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- @ AProck:
just glance through the preceding two or three sections. the discussion of the Flynn effect is a good example, some editors have dead-set opinions about it, and the discussion stagnates because of an inability to take a broader perspective. another example is the whole APA/AAPA discussion, which treats an issue of article balance as though it were some kind of Maginot line. digging out specific diffs would be a pain, but I'll do it if you really need examples. In both these cases (if I were to decide them by fiat) I was say that we would include them as stubs (between one line and one short paragraph of text) and set them aside for later discussion about expansion in this article or in daughter pages. not sure that solution would satisfy anyone, frankly, but it would short-circuit the round-robin debate and let the article get revised.
- @ AProck:
- basically, that's part of my new approach - anything that promotes endless dispute will get boxed up and put in a corner of the article for later debate, just so that we can get a functional (if imperfect) article into mainspace.
- @ Occam: If I'm put in the position of imposing an outline, I will do my best to balance what is given above in proper NPOV fashion. I understand what the agreed on points are and what the contentious points are, and I will probably adopt VA's outline with some noteworthy considerations from Muntuwandi. Please note: I don't like doing this - I would vastly prefer that you all reach a consensus on your own, and I would normally take a long-view approach and give you as much time as you need to work things out. I am only considering this because people are starting to snipe at me over the state of this page, and it's pissing me off. If I'm going to be held accountable for this page in that particular (expletive deleted) way, then I will start insisting on that same accountability from the mediation participants. --Ludwigs2 18:37, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- I have returned and have two days to spend editing this article next week. 1) The more detailed the outline, the better. 2) I have avoided commenting on the substance of the debate over the outline, precisely because it allows me, as the main author, to be neutral. Whatever is in the outline, will go in the article, even if I don't like it. 3) It is only worth two days of my life to rewrite this article if we have consensus that the new version (which may be freely edited by anyone after I am done) is the default version going forward. Does anyone object to that? 4) If anyone else would rather do this, please be my guest! I have only volunteered because no one else would. 5)I won't start until the outline is done. David.Kane (talk) 01:44, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
- @Ludwig. It appears that you are suggesting that one side of the mediation is responsible for drawing lines in the sand, while ignoring the even more egregious behavior of the other side. If you're going to take sides like this, then I think it does behoove you to provide the diffs of which you speak. Either that or a retraction. A.Prock (talk) 15:14, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
- Then I will retract. I had meant it as a loose, general statement with respect to all sides of the dispute about the outline in general, not about a particular side, and I'm sorry if it came off as something different. striking now... --Ludwigs2 15:28, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Another respected opinion
I think we should include the R/I analysis of Thomas Jefferson in Notes on the State of Virginia (1787):
It is not against experience to suppose that different species of the same genus, or varieties of the same species, may possess different qualifications.
Comparing them by their faculties of memory, reason, and imagination, it appears to me, that in memory the blacks are equal to the whites; in reason much inferior, as I think one could scarcely be found capable of tracing and comprehending the investigations of Euclid; and that in imagination they are dull, tasteless, and anomalous.
The Indians astonish you with strokes of the most sublime oratory; such as prove their reason and sentiment strong, their imagination glowing and elevated. But never yet could I find that a black had uttered a thought above the level of plain narration; never see even an elementary trait, of painting or sculpture. In music they are more generally gifted than the whites with accurate ears for tune and time. Whether they will be equal to the composition of a more extensive run of melody, or of complicated harmony, is yet to be proved.
Misery is often the parent of the most affecting touches in poetry. Among the blacks is misery enough, God knows, but no poetry. Love is the peculiar rœstrum of the poet. Their love is ardent, but it kindles the senses only, not the imagination.
They are more ardent after their female: but love seems with them to be more an eager desire than a tender delicate mixture of sentiment and sensation. Their griefs are transient. Those numberless afflictions, which render it doubtful whether heaven has given life to us in mercy or in wrath, are less felt, and sooner forgotten with them.
The negroes are at least as brave, and more adventuresome than whites. But this may perhaps proceed from a want of forethought, which prevents their seeing a danger till it be present. When present, they do not go through it with more coolness or steadiness than the whites.
Where our conclusion would degrade a whole race of men from the rank in the scale of beings which their Creator may perhaps have given them, to our reproach it must be said that though for a century and a half we have had under our eyes the races of black and of red men, they have never yet been viewed by us as subjects of natural history. I advance it therefore as a suspicion only, that the blacks, whether originally a distinct race, or made distinct by time and circumstances, are inferior to the whites in the endowment of mind. TechnoFaye Kane 13:46, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Why the changes today, and the end of this mediation
off-topic for mediation
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Wapondaponda tried to get me banned from Wikipedia in the crudest,sleaziest possible way, and when admin after admin blew him off, he raised so much hell that it awoke one of the Lords of Cobol, "matsci". His words from on high:
This mathsci guy doesn't like us, like, at ALL. He told his archangel Ludwig that he's considering smiting us:
God speaks to Ludwig, the biased moderator:
Say, where else have I heard THAT charge made? But then, this charade never WAS about being fair and objective, was it? Dr. Roberts told me to take some time off from this. TechnoFaye Kane 14:29, 25 March 2010 (UTC) |
renaming article to Race and IQ
- Having a data-centric approach will be much easier if the first thing you do is rename the article from Race and intelligence to Ethnicity and IQ as that is what the data is about. Having a data-centric article about two topics that nobody can define, one of which the scientific consensus is that it doesn't exist, is inherently impossible. I'm sorry you have been barking up the wrong tree for two months... --OpenFuture (talk) 07:53, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- We’ve tried renaming the article before. The most recent attempt was under the title Between-group differences in IQ, but just like every other time this was tried, consensus opposed this change so strongly that the article was moved back to its original title pretty quickly.
- “Race” seems to be the most common term used in the academic literature on this topic, and mental ability is most often discussed in terms of g, the general factor of mental ability. IQ is the most common way of quantifying g, but there’s also mental chronometry and a few other methods, so I think calling the article “race and IQ” would be too narrow a description of what it covers. I wouldn’t have a problem with it being called “Race and g”, but it would probably be too difficult for lay people to understand the meaning of that title. And in any case, I doubt there will ever be a consensus for changing the article’s title.
- By the way, if you’re going to participate in the discussion here you need to formally sign into the mediation. Ludwig can explain how to do that. --Captain Occam (talk) 09:43, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- I also supported renaming to "Race and IQ" to try and distinguish between the nebulous "intelligence" of social discourse and the specific "intelligence" of psychometric research. But, this was rejected as "POV-pushing" or some such policy violation.
- As a note: We will need to have a summary of Environment and intelligence at some point in the article, preferably prior to any discussion of the environmental-hereditarian debate.
- Also: Who supports the 100% environmental hypothesis, anyway? Can we get a list of major proponents and relevant publications? --Aryaman (talk) 15:40, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- I would support renaming it to Race and IQ, or Ethnicity and IQ. A.Prock 16:10, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- VA, I think it’s probably best to save the discussion about that for when we’re a little further along with our progress towards revising the article. Right now, Ludwig wants us to just focus on making sure we know what structure it should have.
- It’s good to see that you’re getting more able to be involved in the discussion here than you were during most of February. Do you still think you won’t have time to revise the article yourself, though? Not that there’s anything specific wrong with David.Kane doing this, but you were definitely everyone’s second choice for it after DJ. --Captain Occam (talk) 16:24, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- I'm pretty tied up at the moment, with my free time being highly irregular and prone to frequent interruption. I have some time coming up in a few days, but it won't be enough to draft the article. I will, however, be around here as much as possible to help out where I can.
- As far as the structure goes, I would reorganize some things. For me, the core points are (1) differences in test scores between races, (2) factors which are known to impact the development of intelligence in individuals, (3) studies conducted to determine the extent to which those factors may affect racial groups, and (4) arguments for and against the ability of those known factors to explain the test score differences between racial groups. I would start by writing those four section of the article, and then flesh out the rest accordingly, adding some background, a section explaining how "race" and "intelligence" are being used/determined in this context (including some brief discussion of testing methods), etc. The structure will necessarily remain in flux for some time, so I think we would be able to start editing sooner if we could get everyone to agree on a certain number of core points and concentrate on those first. This could be done on a section-by-section basis, with Ludwigs opening a section here on the mediation page, editors being allowed to make a statement regarding what they think belongs in that section, and then David taking those notes and writing up a first draft of the section. --Aryaman (talk) 17:23, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- I do not mind renaming it "Race and I" Slrubenstein | Talk 19:36, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- Apologies, I mean race and IQ. I am having problems iwth my keyboard and sometimes I type a letter and it does not show up. I am sorry for the trouble it may cause. Slrubenstein | Talk 01:46, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
them be fightin' words. 
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- VA: Your structure proposal sounds reasonable to me; I think I might have based mine a little too heavily on the article’s current structure. You’re welcome to edit my proposal at the top of this section in order to incorporate some of these ideas, if you like. Otherwise, when David.Kane begins revising the article tomorrow, I encourage him to consider your suggestion also and take any ideas from it that he agrees would be beneficial. --Captain Occam (talk) 21:45, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
If the article name "Race and Intelligence" is used, be careful that the article does not become a synthesis. There is some controversy over whether an IQ test score (a single number) for adults is a complete measure their "intelligence". The one thing that can be said for certain is that a timed IQ test measures the speed at which someone can answer some or all of the questions on the test correctly as opposed to simply their ability to answer the questions correctly. --98.191.81.47 (talk) 19:17, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
straw poll - shall we rename the article to Race and IQ
shall we rename the article to Race and IQ? {{tick}} or {{cross}} as usual. also specify if you have a preference between 'race' and 'ethnicity' --Ludwigs2 23:41, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Support renaming to Race and IQ. "Race" and "ethnicity" certainly overlap here, with ethnicity probably being the more redeemable of the two, so I can understand why "ethnicity" might seem better to some. However, I think "race" is the term used most frequently in the literature, particularly in article and book titles. --Aryaman (talk) 07:49, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Oppose renaming. While I agree that the majority of the data on this topic comes from IQ tests, renaming the article to "Race and IQ" would imply that IQ is the only source of data about it, which isn't the case. Some of the literature on this topic focuses specifically on reaction time and/or scholastic achievement, which can be considered aspects of intelligence or mental ability, but would not be included under the heading "IQ". Because of its relevance to this topic, I don't think such literature should be excluded from the article, but I also think that renaming the article to "Race and IQ" while it includes this material would imply that it has a narrower scope than it actually does. --Captain Occam (talk) 08:13, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- Comment/Question: I agree that "(general) mental ability" would be the best term here, though it is probably a bit ... ungainly. Yet, aren't things like reaction time and scholastic achievement being discussed as corollaries to IQ (which, for our purposes, is conterminous with g)? --Aryaman (talk) 09:11, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- It depends on what you mean by “corollaries”. They’re measuring the same thing that IQ measures, a little more directly with mental chronometry than with scholastic achievement, but they don’t measure IQ itself. IQ and mental chronometry are two different ways of quantifying g, and neither is necessarily superior to the other. (Jensen seems to be of the opinion that mental chronometry is actually preferable among the two, because it can produce an absolute number in milliseconds rather than just a relative scale—he talks about this in Clocking the Mind.) So I don’t think we should choose a title that implies IQ is the central trait being discussed, and that all other methods of measurement are only relevant inasmuch as they reproduce IQ test results, when that isn’t actually the case.
- Do you see my point? If we have multiple, equally valid ways of measuring g (which we do), I don’t think it’s appropriate to name the article after just one of them, even if it’s the most common. --Captain Occam (talk) 10:16, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- OK, I see what you mean. Well, as you know, my original choice here was "Race in intelligence research", but that was also rejected. So, we stick with what we have, then? --Aryaman (talk) 12:46, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- "Ethnicity in intelligence research" would work for a data-centric article indeed. That would allow for a summary of different kinds of intelligence research that compares ethnic groups. --OpenFuture (talk) 14:06, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- (I signed up above, I don't know if I need to do anything more to join the discussion properly, which it seems I should do). The problem here is of course that g is controversial, and that we have very little proof that IQ, SAT and mental chronometry actually correlates with g, unless we define g as being the correlation between IQ, SAT and chonometry. But even then we need to get data that measures all three on the same individuals. And even then the equating of g and intelligence is tentative. As mentioned in the article (or maybe the talk page, I don't remember) hunter-gatherers living in harsh environments have to be very intelligence, yet would do very poorly on IQ and SAT tests. Although IQ and mental chronometry may both correlate with some sort of general intelligence (it does seem likely), and therefore they both are equally valid ways of measuring g, that validity is actually none on both cases. You don't actually measure g with any of these tests.
- But you are right that not only IQ is discussed, of course, so possible it should then be "Ethnicity and intelligence testing". But "Race and Intelligence" as a title is as relevant for a data centric article as "Unicorns vs Dragons". --OpenFuture (talk) 10:42, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- Something else I should mention about the renaming idea is that Wikipedia has several other articles about similar topics, and all of them are named the same way. For Height and intelligence, Sex and intelligence, Health and intelligence Religiosity and intelligence, Neuroscience and intelligence, Environment and intelligence or Health and intelligence, intelligence (or more precisely, g) is quantified in the same ways that it’s quantified in the research that Race and intelligence covers, but the editors of each of those articles have agreed that “X and intelligence” is the best way to name them.
- I don’t see why our own article should be named differently from all of those. On the other hand, if “Race and IQ” really is a better title, then in the interest of consistency the word “intelligence” would need to be replaced with “IQ” in the titles of all of the aforementioned articles also. --Captain Occam (talk) 21:10, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- They are not particularly data-centric. --OpenFuture (talk) 21:35, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- So you think that our plan for this article to have a data-centric approach justifies changing its name to something different from every other Wikipedia article about a similar topic? What is it about a data-centric structure that makes this article so special as to warrant this? --Captain Occam (talk) 23:30, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- They are not particularly data-centric. --OpenFuture (talk) 21:35, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- I don’t see why our own article should be named differently from all of those. On the other hand, if “Race and IQ” really is a better title, then in the interest of consistency the word “intelligence” would need to be replaced with “IQ” in the titles of all of the aforementioned articles also. --Captain Occam (talk) 21:10, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- It's not about the data-centric structure; that's just the disingenuous cover story. It's about pushing a political POV, and is just like naming the article "Why Blacks are so stupid". I would hope that editors on BOTH sides of this issue would agree that this kind of subtle propaganda is EXACTLY what we need to scrupulously avoid, lest we confirm all of Fox News' dismissive badmouthing of our beloved Wikipedia. TechnoFaye Kane 08:47, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
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Oppose renaming. I don't have strong feelings about this, but I think 'Race and Intelligence' is the best name. The tag This article also discusses issues regarding ethnicity and intelligence covers ethnicity. Since race is the superset of ethnicity it's the most salient term, and as Aryaman said it's the frequent term in the literature and popular understanding. And as Occam said, IQ is not the only measure of intelligence used. The question of whether IQ tests are a good way of measuring intelligence of 'hunter-gatherers' is relevant to the article, but no reason to rename it. mikemikev (talk) 11:15, 9 March 2010 (UTC) I'm assuming that if the name is changed (which I oppose) the other names will redirect?
Support renaming to Race and IQ. "intelligence" as that APA notes means many different things. The debates that have led to this prolongued (but productive) mediation have to do with IQ scors. Precision is a virtue in encyclopedia articles; it is a necessity in science. I have strong feelings about this - adjunct issus would belong in linked articles. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:28, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Support renaming to Ethnicity and intelligence research. Intelligence is undefined, and race does not exist. A data centric article can not be based on things that do not exist. I'm not sure a data-centric approach is the best solution , but as that seems to be the consensus... --OpenFuture (talk) 14:06, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Support support. There is an argument for Ethnicity and IQ since nearly all the research is done with respect to SIRE, but reliance on SIRE will hopefully start to wane, so I think Race and IQ is fine. There is the problem that Occam mentions that there are smatterings of non-SIRE research, and non-IQ research, but I think we can handle that within the article. A.Prock 17:58, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Oppose renaming. David.Kane (talk) 18:29, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Oppose. 1) Many of the sources used refer to "g", which is not IQ. They even talk about the difference between g and IQ. 2) Many of the cited articles use "intelligence" in their name, not "IQ". 3) The article is about race and intelligence. 4) the controversy is about race and intelligence; the fact that one race has much lower average IQ scores is uncontroversial. 4) Blatant and cowardly attempt to push a POV into the title, indicative of the bias some editors harbor, the subtle ways they seek to insert propaganda, and the reason their statements on this page can not be assumed to be made in good faith. TechnoFaye Kane 08:47, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
FWIW: The Wonderlic is a highly regarded IQ test. It's been around for decades and 100s of millions of people have taken it (it's in the news every year as the NFL uses it on draftees and current players).
Also, how big / important / practically significant a difference is is well captured by a measure called effect size (Cohen's D). It's basically the standardized mean difference between two groups (i.e., the mean difference divided by a standard deviation).
Cohen is not an IQ researcher but a statistician, and his estimates are well-accepted by the scientific community: .20 = small effect .40 = medium .60 = large
In all these cases, the distributions would overlap substantially. Yet, .60 (a mean difference of less than 1 sd) is still considered large.
The b/w difference is d=1.0 for context...
Bpesta22 (talk) 19:20, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Aprock, this last series of edits you've made borders on the comical: 1, 2, 3, 4. Why not do some research before forming an opinion? Or at least getting your story straight prior to posting? It would go a long way in helping others assume you're a neutral editor instead of a misinformed POV-pusher. --Aryaman (talk) 20:09, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- If you'd like to respond to the topic, by all means do so. If your only point is to attack me for the fact that I'm willing to update my understanding as I consume more information, I don't really know how to respond. I guess I can only hope that you suffer from the same "new information changes understanding bias" as well. A.Prock (talk) 20:14, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- Bryan Pesta wrote that the leading journal on the topic is Intelligence. Does anyone have access to the journal? I'd ask two questions: Are there any articles in that journal comparing differnt tests used to measure intelligence? Also, how many articles cite Wonderlich, compared to how many articles cite other tests? Slrubenstein | Talk 14:10, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
- Sounds like now you're trying to work the angle of "the tests are invalid" or "they give different results".
- Well, forget it, rubenstein. Do we need to bother Dr. Pesta with the question of whether the psychometric community believes that the tests they use are valid with respect to whatever new objection you're trying to stall us with this time? The different kinds of IQ tests--if there ARE different kinds--doesn't belong in this article, but in the one about IQ tests. TechnoFaye Kane 19:29, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Sociological Race vs Genes
{{archive top}} {{quote box}} One thing that may not be clear from the above back and forth is that it's certainly the case that sociological race has a biological component. It's certainly possible to reach genetic conclusions about any population of people. So in the sense that you might be able to study the gene population of any given group and come up with a conclusion, it's certainly possible to do that with sociological race. You could do the same thing with height, eye color, hair color, weight, or any other phenotypical trait. You can also create genetic clusters based on phenotypical traits if those very same traits are used to guide the clustering algorithms.
Above Aryaman writes:
The distinction set up below between "race as a social construct" and "race as a biological category" is an inflammatory and largely false dichotomy.
And in some sense he's correct. For the greatest part, SIRE is determined by skin color, and the SIRE of your parents. And just like eye color, you can create genetic clusters based on that information. But that's putting the cart before the horse. At 23 and me [9] there are over 100 genetic traits that can be tested for. We could pick any small subset of these traits and create genetic clusters about them. We could construct the genetic clusters for the "Cystic Fibrosis/Type 1 Diabetes" races. We could create clusters for the "Bloom's Syndrome/eye color" race. I think what confuses a lot of people is that these genetic+SIRE clusters do not indicate anything more an external structure imposed on genetic data.
But (again) that's not to say that genetic inferences cannot be made by studying the IQ results of the "Cystic Fibrosis/Type 1 Diabetes" races. The gene clusters do represent different sets of gene pools. But it's still an open questions as to whether these clustering techniques capture significant genetic variation beyond the trait from which they were constructed.
Given that all of the research generally uses SIRE information, and it's not clear that SIRE based genetic clustering captures significant human variation beyond SIRE information, and given that we currently have no definition of distinct genetic races, the conclusions that are made about studies based on SIRE information really only speak to the populations defined by SIRE information, as opposed to genetic information.
This is illustrated particularly well in the study discussed above [10]. The researchers started with a body of data where participants had selected one of five different racial categories (plus other). But using genetic clustering, they could not create the five clusters corresponding to the SIRE information without using the self reported data. In fact, as input the software required the researchers to identify the number of clusters to construct. They were not able to infer the number of racial genetic clusters directly from the data. There is a wonderful image on the Human genetic clustering page which also illustrates this. Are there 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6 genetic races? Is there only one genetic race? Are there more than six? In fact, with enough data you should be able to extract hundreds (or thousands) of clusters which generally correspond to subtrees in the human hereditary tree. Does that mean that there are hundreds of races? A.Prock 17:42, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
- And would your arbitrarily constructed "races" have any predictive value or correlation with other traits, as actual races do? No, so they are pointless. mikemikev (talk) 00:14, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- It's not clear what you're basing this on, and whether or not this statement applies to self identified race/ethnicity. A.Prock 00:23, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- Racial clusters constructed on arbitrary genetic traits other than skin color would certainly predict those traits. Maybe you could clarify what you're saying? A.Prock 00:30, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- (e/c) Mike - can you clarify what you mean by 'arbitrarily constructed' and 'actual' races? I'm not sure I see what you're getting at. --Ludwigs2 00:32, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not sure why you think it would be any more or less random than using SIRE. A.Prock 00:41, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- It's the exact same process as SIRE. You select some trait which has a genetic basis, a set of markers -- preferably ones associated with that trait -- collect the data, then apply a clustering algorithm to the genetic markers. A.Prock 00:48, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- Mike - you still haven't answered my question: can you clarify what you mean by 'arbitrarily constructed' and 'actual' races? It's these kinds of issues that need to get ironed out if the mediation is going to move forward. --Ludwigs2 05:47, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- I'm refering to A.Prock saying you could construct races based on randomly selected combinations of traits; he used "Cystic Fibrosis/Type 1 Diabetes" race and "Bloom's Syndrome/eye color" race. But racial traits are not randomly selected, they go together, and they may indicate other as yet unknown traits and genes, as well as having a proven usefulness in medical indication. So I fail to see a point.
- This whole 'genetic cluster' business is really not so relevant. All genome studies tell us with regard to R&I is this: "We observe gene distribution differences between races/ethnic groups. We don't know what those genes are doing, so genetic or environmental causes of group differences in IQ are both equally possible." We can put a statement into the article to this effect. (Although I heard there have been some recent discoveries of genes linked to intelligence which are unevely distributed among races, I've yet to check that). mikemikev (talk) 12:14, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- The problem I see with that particular statement, Mike, is that it seems to presume that group differences in intelligence exist in a solidly proven way (I get that from the so genetic or environmental causes of group differences in IQ are both equally possible bit). is that what you meant to say? --Ludwigs2 18:44, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
If the genetic cluster business is not relevant, we are back to the point that race is not a reliable indicator of the heritability of intelligence. I do not see Mikemikev asatisfactorally responding to Aprock, and I think Aprock is bringing up a very important point.
Mikmikev suggests that race is arbitraary and thus uninformative and I think is mixing up the argument. The point is that race, biologically conceived, is to a degree arbitrary with regards to much of the genome and thus uninformative. But race viewed as a social construct is highly informative. For example, race socially sonctructed could in the 1940s help one predict where in the bus a particular person would sit, if they were travelling in Missisipi. race also was highly predictive of the quality of schooling one had, which some people ar eleast consider relevant to IQ score. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:02, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- I never said races were arbitrary! Slrubenstein you fail to understand. mikemikev (talk) 16:20, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- To clarify, you said race based on anything except SIRE was arbitrary. A.Prock 17:05, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- mikemikev wrote: "And would your arbitrarily constructed "races" have any predictive value or correlation with other traits, as actual races do? No" Maybe I'm not understanding you though. Can you clarify what you mean? What makes some races arbitrary and others not? A.Prock 18:39, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- What I said was arbitrary, for the third time, were the 'races' "Cystic Fibrosis/Type 1 Diabetes" and "Bloom's Syndrome/eye color". I could envisage a genomic definition of race. If we got that precise there would be no need to group people, and could consider each person (or organism) on an individual basis. Until then SIRE is our best fit.
- There could be other classifications developed according to traits which seem to correlate with other traits, calling them 'races' would just be confusing the issue. mikemikev (talk) 11:14, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
(ec)My apologies. What I meant to say was this: you referred to a certain conceptualization of race as "arbitrarily constructed" and therefore "pointless." Yet you seem to believe that some kind of biologically based concept of race is not arbitrary and has a point. To be clear: Rushton's use of race is fringe science because it is arbitrarily constructed and pointless. Social scientists look at race as socially constructed. This does not mean it is arbitrarily constructed, and if we were to say so in an article we would be misrepresenting the science. Moreover, not being arbitrarily constructed, there are contexts in which it has great predictive power. Right now it seems to have predictive power for mean IQ scores. But we are still talking about a social construction, not a biological category or group. Why race and certain mean IQ scores correlate is still an unknown. I hope I have not misrepresented anyone in this. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:43, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- Do you even realise you're contradicting yourself? I'm really done with this point. Race is a social construct, a useful biological category, and a genetic reality. The interplay between these things is really the point of R&I, and trying to deny one of them exists makes you fringe! mikemikev (talk) 11:14, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Where precisely is the contradiction? Slrubenstein | Talk 15:55, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
- What counts, at least for this article and the mediation proces, is not what personal opinions we have about race, but what the mainstream view on race is. So far, none of the mainstream publications are sticking their necks out declaring that race is genetic reality. What is frequently mentioned in mainstream publications is that at the nucleotide level, the genetic diversity of humans is low relative to the diversity found in other closely related species. Though nucleotide differences between the continental populations are relatively small, these differences can still be used to accurately predict the continental origin of a DNA sample. The implications of the small genetic differences between different human populations is still incomplete. On one hand, the bulk of nucleotide differences are selectively neutral and have no effect on phenotype. On the other hand some differences are found in the genes that code for proteins, examples include genes that code for skin color. Most mainstream publications in molecular biology, don't use the term race, preferring terms such as Biogeographic ancestry, or clusters. Wapondaponda (talk) 23:05, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
- As long as we are in agreement that this is the mainstream view of "race" and will presented as such in the article I am satisfied. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:33, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
- Wapondaponda wrote: "So far, none of the mainstream publications are sticking their necks out declaring that race is genetic reality."
- Whether or not that's true (I doubt it, since "Biogeographic ancestry" is absolutely synonomous with race/ethnicity, and researchers are forced to use these weasel words because of political/media fear) the point is whether any mainstream publications say race is not a genetic reality. If you can provide any (apart from the thoroughly debunked Lewontin, or the sociologists posing as geneticists who still reference his 30 year old fallacy today) we can consider not using the terms 'Race' and 'Ethnicity' in this article. Until then we should use it, because it is what R&I scholars use and we have no place to say they are wrong to use it. mikemikev (talk) 12:10, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
- I think you can look up any of the recent publications in population genetics to verify whether the term race is used to describe the populations analyzed. I doubt you will find social constructs of race, such as "black" or "white, used to describe genetic data. I hope we can agree with one fact, mainstream studies in population genetics haven't explicitly declared "race" a genetic reality. If there are any, please provide links. Of course when studying global patterns of human genetic diversity it becomes necessary to have a representative sample, which usually means that each continental population will be represented in a study. But much of what I have seen has been a move away from continental differences and a move towards discovering genetic patterns within continents. The Hapmap project, whose genetic data is widely used, has given specific guidelines that its genetic data shouldn't be "racialized". Mikemikev, you may have some good arguments in favor of the genetic reality of race, but if these arguments have not been published in mainstream journals, then they are interesting but would violate the policies of original research. Wapondaponda (talk) 14:11, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
- No we don't agree. Dawkins and Edwards have both explicitly stated that race has genetic validity. And unfortunately you fail to address my point, which is that unless you can provide a solid source questioning the scientific validity of race we are in no position to question the terminology of R&I scholars. That hapmap guideline just cautions against being to precise or general, it doesn't address the validity of race. mikemikev (talk) 14:28, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
- Please provide quotes or urls where there is explicit declaration or conclusion that race is real biological and genetic entity from a mainstream source. Wapondaponda (talk) 15:58, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
- I'm under no obligation to. It wouldn't affect the article if that were not proven. You are obligated to provide evidence to the contrary if you want to 'have your way' (what exactly is it you want again?). mikemikev (talk) 16:15, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
- But just for fun, here is an Imperial College evolutionary biologist explicitly stating races are real. mikemikev (talk) 16:41, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
- That's an opinion piece, it doesn't represent mainstream science. If there is just a normal distribution on opinion among evolutionary biologists, there will of course be a certain percentage that say races are biological real among humans. That is not the same thing as mainstream science. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:08, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
- But just for fun, here is an Imperial College evolutionary biologist explicitly stating races are real. mikemikev (talk) 16:41, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
- I'm under no obligation to. It wouldn't affect the article if that were not proven. You are obligated to provide evidence to the contrary if you want to 'have your way' (what exactly is it you want again?). mikemikev (talk) 16:15, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
- Please provide quotes or urls where there is explicit declaration or conclusion that race is real biological and genetic entity from a mainstream source. Wapondaponda (talk) 15:58, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
- No we don't agree. Dawkins and Edwards have both explicitly stated that race has genetic validity. And unfortunately you fail to address my point, which is that unless you can provide a solid source questioning the scientific validity of race we are in no position to question the terminology of R&I scholars. That hapmap guideline just cautions against being to precise or general, it doesn't address the validity of race. mikemikev (talk) 14:28, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
- I think you can look up any of the recent publications in population genetics to verify whether the term race is used to describe the populations analyzed. I doubt you will find social constructs of race, such as "black" or "white, used to describe genetic data. I hope we can agree with one fact, mainstream studies in population genetics haven't explicitly declared "race" a genetic reality. If there are any, please provide links. Of course when studying global patterns of human genetic diversity it becomes necessary to have a representative sample, which usually means that each continental population will be represented in a study. But much of what I have seen has been a move away from continental differences and a move towards discovering genetic patterns within continents. The Hapmap project, whose genetic data is widely used, has given specific guidelines that its genetic data shouldn't be "racialized". Mikemikev, you may have some good arguments in favor of the genetic reality of race, but if these arguments have not been published in mainstream journals, then they are interesting but would violate the policies of original research. Wapondaponda (talk) 14:11, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
- I can reference many many biologists who completely disagree, and geneticists. Indeed you should read what Leroi actually says. he doesn't say that "race" is real at all. What he says is that human genetic variation is real, and that people who live in geographical proximity are more genetically similar, and so "race" can be used as a proxy for genetic similarity as long as "race" refers to people who have ancestry that is geographically known. Indeed he is clear that Basques, for example, are more similar to each other than they are to non-Basques, but no one ever called the Basques a "race". That's a very different thing to saying "race" is real. Leroi goes on to say that when genetic testing gets better we can abandon "race" as a proxy for genetic similarity because we will have much more accurate data. So you'r actually misrepresenting Leroi quite badly to promote a fallacious point. Typical. But a whole website full of biologists, anthropologists and many more professionals in the field all disagreeing with Leroi, though I expect you'll invoke your "credible biologist" clause now, a "credible biologist" being only those who agree with you. The problem is that you have a very bad case of confirmation bias. Alun (talk) 21:46, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
reading this, I think part of the problem here is a confusion about the difference between 'race' (which I take to be an effort to group individuals in the present tense) and 'genetic heritage' (which I take to be effort to determine ancestral roots). for example, I'm quite sure that a geneticist could identify genes in me that derive from ancestral Irish (gaelic) peoples, and could also identify genes that derive specifically from Italian (mediterranean) groups. Likewise, I have a friend who has gaelic roots and Pacific Islander (south-east Asian) roots. neither of us identifies with any of these ancestral roots, however, and we're both typically American, with none of the behavioral or cultural identifications of any of them. It's possible even that I have some African ancestry in my genome (southern Italians have more than a little mixing with north African peoples). I don't see a problem with the 'genetic heritage' point, but I personally would find it a bit odd for some geneticist to declare that I am Irish because I have some cluster of Irish genes, and I'd find it absurd if that geneticist then attached a value-laden racial claim (e.g. that I'm at risk of being a drunk) because of that clustering. Don't get me wrong: if a geneticist discovered the genes that code for alcoholism and found that those genes actually are associated with Irish genetic heritage, that would be one thing, but mixing a loose 'genetic heritage' idea with a set of cultural preconceptions (not to mention stereotypes) to create a value-laden definition of race strikes me as a stretch. do any scholarly sources actually take it that far? --Ludwigs2 18:31, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
- Ludwigs2, I think you are making a useful distinction. When geneticists talk among themselves, they use terms like "populations" that have different gene frequencies, and that vary depending on geography. Now, in some parts of the world and at certain times there could be a fairly close approximation between this and self-identified race, but in other times and places (Brazil is often cited as a good example) they do not correspond well at all. I'll also point out that historians make certain distinctions that most people do not and might consider pedantic - for example, there may well be a genetic continuity between someone living in Kenya today and people who lived in the same are 10,000 years ago, but no historian - natural or otherwise - would talk about "Kenyan genes" because 10,000 years ago it is a good bet people living there did not call themselves "Kenyan" (historians generally try to avoid anachronistic figures of speech.) How people identify themselves, and with whom people identify, can change pretty quickly. This does not mean that there is not a genetic connecion between you and people in the past (the biggest problem is that when biologists take a sample of your genes, all they can establish is some continuity between you and a teensy weensy portion of your ancestors of a couple of thousand years ago, and that is not too long ago, and we know knowthing about the rest!
- I think your proposal about using the phrase "genetic heritage" is constructive but I would like to know what Muntuwandi and Aprock and others think. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:36, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
- This kind of confusion is deliberately created by those who wish to obfuscate the issue. I reiterate: provide references to credible biologists who say racial categorization is not useful, or stop wasting everybodies time with ill-informed conjecture, so we can write the article. mikemikev (talk) 23:01, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
- I think your proposal about using the phrase "genetic heritage" is constructive but I would like to know what Muntuwandi and Aprock and others think. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:36, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
- @ mikemike: this is mediation, not WWE Smackdown. As best I can tell, There is a small group of scholars who present the idea that race is a genetic categorization. They are not fringe, and it is a notable perspective, but it is not by any means the current accepted understanding of the issue in any discipline that I know of. Th perspective needs to be included to an extent that keeps it in balance with the conventional views on the matter. I don't think anyone disagrees with this point, so I'm not sure what it is you're arguing for, or why you're arguing with such vehemence. can you explain? --Ludwigs2 02:47, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
Ludwig, I apologise if my tone appears too aggressive. I think it will be helpful if I can give a summary of my position, and it's relation to what I see as the positions of others.
Slrubenstein and others appear to arguing against the biological validity of race. Their objective appears to be replacing the word race with superset or synonomous weasel words such as "group", "biogeographic ancestry" or "genetic heritage", and possibly also going as far as breaking up or deleting the article. I have referenced several very reliable biologists who have explicitly stated that race, despite being poorly defined and with many grey areas, is a useful scientific concept. I have requested many times that the others provide contemporary, reliable references to the contrary, a request they have consistently ignored, all the while asking me for more references, and maintaining that their opinion is "mainstream", despite providing as yet zero references.
I am a little disappointed that you have not addressed this, Ludwig.
In addition, even if some scholars thought race was not useful or scientifically valid, it would not affect the article. R&I scholars think it is useful. They are well aware of race/ethnicity distinctions and mixed-race issues, actually they address these points in detail. All we can do is present their arguments neutrally, because there is no solid evidence they are wrong. There is no problem with including a (well referenced) section saying that some scholars (I don't know of any) say race is too vague to be useful/predictive.
What I'm arguing for, quite simply, is to go ahead with data-centric proposal, as I see no reasonable objection. mikemikev (talk) 09:37, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
- Mikemikev, all I have been arguing for is to use the AAA[11] and APA statements on race and IQ as principal points of reference for identifying mainstream, majority, an fringe views concerning race. Ludwigs2 just proposed wording that he hoped various parties - and I certainly include Aryaman and Captain Occam, as well as Muntuwandi and Aprock - would find acceptable. Mediation will be successful only if we all wish to find compromise and mutual ground. I know I have been a frequent source of frustration to Aryaman, and he is aware that I fee the same way. But I know that he entered this mediation in good faith and really is seeking some kind of mutually acceptable accommodation. I truly beliee this and I hope he knows that. But I honestly have to wonder: do you?
- Ludwigs2, Mikemikev has introduced links to sources he believes supports his position. I know that as mediator, your task is to prmote a process that facilitates collaborationamong editors, it is not your task to review sources. But your recent comment shows an earnest attempt to grasp the different views of scientists. While I still think the AAA and APA statements are the reasonable key points of reference, since Mikmikev introduced a link, I hope you do not mind if I do. It is by an established scholar and was presented at a professional conference (meaning: it did not go through peer review, but I give it greater creedance than an opiniuon piece, a it was written for peer). For what it is worth, I share this because I believe it does represent the mainstream science and does explain in fairly accessible language the key isues: [12]. It is an explicit attempt to sum up the state of knowledge at the time, so it is very valuable in articulating what I consider the mainstream view. Above, an anonymous IP (but I preseume, Mikemikev) wrote, "I reiterate: provide references to credible biologists who say racial categorization is not useful, or stop wasting everybodies time with ill-informed conjecture, so we can write the article." Okay, I will respond to your demand. Ludwigs2, I know it is not your job to read this stuff but if you are trying to sor out the different views, I sincerely believe you will find this useful. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:54, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
- @ mikemike: For me it's not so much a question of sources at this stage - it's a question of conceptualizations. My sense is that you are using the concept 'race' in a way that presupposes that race is a biological/genetic construct, and that's making you think that others are trying to oppose (what to you are) commonsensical assertions about the genetic nature of race. But I don't think that's what they are trying to do at all. You have to see that they have different concerns than you. just as you are concerned that the possibility of a biological basis for race not be excluded from the article, they are concerned that the possibility of a biological basis not be presented as a truth or an established fact that dominates the article. The issue is still open in the scientific world, and I think we all agree that we're not going to resolve it on Wikipedia, so the question here is not about exclusion or conclusion, but rather about balance. The problem I'm having with your posts above, however, is that I don't see you trying to work towards a balance - I see you trying to push for a position, and other editors are pushing back, and that's where the conversation is stuck. the Question I have for you is how do we work what you want to include into balance with the rest of the material in the article? --Ludwigs2 10:33, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
- well, can you expand on that? I mean, SIRE is a perfectly valid scientific approach to race without any genetic elements. it's clear to me that you mean something else, having to do with genetics, and this title doesn't capture that. --Ludwigs2 17:41, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
Well Ludwig, I completely agree that SIRE is a perfectly valid scientific approach to race without any genetic elements. I suggested this section as a compromise to Slrubenstein/Wapondaponda, even though I really think such a section and indeed this whole mediation digression (which I didn't start) belongs in "Race and genetics". I think such a section would capture the discussion above: some scholars think race is too vague to be informative, some don't. This would necessarily include some genetic points. Considering the APA fall into the first category, trying to anchor the article to their statement is the real POV pushing here. The AAA and APA statements are POV. We cannot base this article on them. And can I ask SLR/WPP if the data-centric proposal is unacceptable to them? mikemikev (talk) 19:32, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
- ok though don't misunderstand the APA. I don't think they are saying that race is uninformative - that would be naive - I think they are merely saying that race is not a 'solid' categorization. I'm sure they would recognize the importance of the race construct even without any genetic underpinning. but let's see what other have to say here. --Ludwigs2 20:18, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
- I do not understand Mikemikev's accusation that using the APA and AA statements are POV "pushing." He says the statements are POV. Well, so what? I mean, is not everything in Wikipedia a point of view? What would we include in this section that could not be a point of view? A "datacentric" approach means we start with the test scores. But once we do that, we need to explain what we mean by race. And any section on what the word "race" means will have to comply with our NPOV policy by providing all major points of view. SO isn't providing points of view precisely what we are supposed to be doing?
- The question is, what is the mainstream view, what are minority views, and what are fringe views - NPOV calls on us to make these distinctions. Since the AAA and the APA are the organizations that represent the vast majority of specialists on research on either race or IQ testing, I think it is perfectly reasonable to use their statements as benchmarks for identifying mainstream points of view. How can we not base a discussion of points of view o race on these statements? Slrubenstein | Talk 00:37, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
I did not object to using the APA/AAA statements. I objected to using them as the basis for the article. Again you misrepresent me. They are one POV and should be included.
We don't need to explain the meaning of race. This is done in the "Race" article. We don't need to explain the meaning of "Height" in the "Height and Intelligence" article. If people want a precise discussion they can go to the relevant article. This is how wikipedia works. All we need to do is state the selection method used (SIRE).
Since R&I involves making genetic claims about races we need to ask geneticists whether this is reasonable, not just the APA or AAA, who only address the sociological vagueness of race in the USA, and are severely ill-informed with regard to biological aspects. My understanding is that geneticists consider both sides in the R&I debate reasonable.
I'm sorry but the APA does not represent the international scientific community.
I understand that this makes writing the article more difficult, but for it to be balanced we have no choice.
So to answer your question there is no mainstream, minority or fringe view, just equally plausible hypotheses which should be represented in the article.
I hope I have satisfied your concerns and we can move on. mikemikev (talk) 10:10, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
- You are the one calling for a section on "scientific validity of race." There is no way to discuss the validity of a concept without defining what the concept is.
- You say there is not mainstrea, majority or fringe views. You are wrong. There are, and WP:NPOV demands we identify them when they exist. We cannot do an end run around NPOV. It is obvious to me that the APA and AAA statements, which represent virtually all researchers working on race andintelligence, represent the majority view; I believe they represent the mainstream view. What is your evidence that they do not?
- You claim that they are ill-informed about biology yet mny members of the AAA re world-leading researchers on human evolution and genetics. What is the asis for your claim?
- You also claim that biologists see "both sides" of the debate as reasonable. First of all, simply to say thereare two sides to the debate is itself a point of view. Other people woking here towards a compromise have pointed out that there are many sides to this debate. Moreover, there ar emany debates. So what are you referring to? I know that geneticists debate the heritability of IQ, some putting it at 40%, others around 60-70%. To my knowledge the other major debate among geneticists is over the effects of of the shared prenatal environment - some argue that identical blood supply should lead to greater similarities between monochoriatic twins than dichorionic twins; others argue that competition for blood supply should lead to greater differences between monochorionic twins than dichorionic twins. Is this the debate to which you refer? I do think genetists right now see both sides as reasonable. How do you see this as fitting into the article?
- If you ar referring to the debate going on in Rushton's mind, I have not seen any evidence of geneticists researching this topic. Genetisists are for the most part researching variation within groups. I have not seen anything written by a genetists on his research concerning between-group differences; if such work exists I doubt it reflects the work of most geneticsts, but of course you should share that research with us. (of course, a genetisist can express a view about anything, e.g. whether they think we should limit CO2 emmisions or raise the VAT, but unless it is the result of genetic research I do not see how their personal opinions are relevant. What makes geneticists important is that they conduct research on genes and inheritanc. In an article that takes a "data-centric" approach, it is thir research, an no their personal opinions, that matters).
- The AAA and APA statements reflect the Views of people involved in research on these topics and seem to me to be the only reasonalbe starting point for any discussion of scientific validity o race. Not that this is settled let's move on.Slrubenstein | Talk 13:38, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
OK, let's not have a section on the scientific validity of race, I'm glad we agree there.
Just so we know we are on the same page, which year AAA statement on race are you refering to?
Yes, I'm well aware there are more than exactly two non-overlapping positions. My point was refering to two ends of a continuum. Did you really think I was refering to the pre-natal environment (generally known to be trivial in intelligence development outside severe malnutrition/poisoning)?
So my question is: what year AAA report are you refering to? mikemikev (talk) 14:15, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see this discussion going anywhere. So we might as well agree to disagree on the question of biological/genetic races and instead focus on SIRE, which is what much of the data is based on. All we would need to mention is that the concept of race from a biological/genetic perspective remains a controversial issue, and simply redirect to the appropriate articles, Race (classification of human beings), race and genetics, human genetic variation and human genetic clustering for further information. However, we do need to mention that some of the critics of research into RI have argued that race is primarily a social construct, and that the failure to create an objective criteria for the definition of human races that can be used consistently, compromises RI research. Wapondaponda (talk) 16:30, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
- Here is the AAA statement, dated 1998 [13]. A better document is the statement by the American Association of Physical Anthropologists. This is better in two ways. First, it is more recent, being issued in 2009. Second, Physical Anthropologists are those who specifically study humanity as a biological species; these are the guys who are experts in human osteology and morphology, as well as human genetics. Their statement: [14] Slrubenstein | Talk 21:34, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
- This discussion is about how to mediate disputes concerning the Race and Intelligence article. Now, you have aked a specific queston so I will answer it: whatever is th eost recent AAA statement on race or race and intelligence. Now that I have answered your question we can go back to the matter at hand. You have removed your proposal for a setion on the scientific valididty of race. Fine. Now, Muntuwandi has made a proposal for how to resolve this particular matter in his 16:30, 13 February 2010 post. I endorese his proposal. Ludwigs2, unless you think his proposal is unworkable, can we just put one of those boxes around it as conflict resolved and archive this discussion? Slrubenstein | Talk 20:47, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
- Slrubenstein, since you are proposing to use this AAA report as a basis for this article, I think it's reasonable that you are specific about it. Please provide a title, date, and if possible a link. Otherwise I think it's fair that we can assume not to use it, since some people may not know what you are talking about. mikemikev (talk) 21:03, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
- Did you read what I just wrote? What I am proposing is that we accept Muntuwandi's proposal. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:28, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
- Several months ago, Aryaman proposed that we use the APA statement as a starting point. Given the centrality of psychometric research to this article, I think that is a fair request/proposal and while he and I hve disagreed on many things, I suppor him on this. Most others who have been involved in this mediation agree with him too. Now, I am not sure that you are a formal part of this mediation, and I never saw you edit the article on race and intelligence. I am really focusing on trying to mediate my problems with Aryaman, captain Occam, and others who signed up for this mediation. But I do not see why anyone would take objection to using the APA statement as a starting point.
- This discussion is about how to mediate disputes concerning the Race and Intelligence article. Now, you have aked a specific queston so I will answer it: whatever is th eost recent AAA statement on race or race and intelligence. Now that I have answered your question we can go back to the matter at hand. You have removed your proposal for a setion on the scientific valididty of race. Fine. Now, Muntuwandi has made a proposal for how to resolve this particular matter in his 16:30, 13 February 2010 post. I endorese his proposal. Ludwigs2, unless you think his proposal is unworkable, can we just put one of those boxes around it as conflict resolved and archive this discussion? Slrubenstein | Talk 20:47, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
- I personally woul go further and say it should be considered in any discussion of mainstream, majority, minority and fringe points of view. WP:NPOV demands that we provide all significant views from notable sources and that we give them due weight. We need a point of reference, and this seems like a good one.
- Given that the AAPA statement is more recent thn the AAA statement, and also represents the leading experts on population genetics and other tudies of humans as biological organisms, I actually would defer to the AAPA statement over the AAA statement, but I think it too should be used as a point of reference in these discussions.
- I do not want to waste any time "making points" about these statements - that sounds too much like soap-boxing, and the purpose of this page is to mediate disputes. Actual discussions about improving the article belong on the article talk page. Here, let's resolve disputes.
- These are contentious topics so it makes sense to use the statements of the scientists who do the research as points of reference. Beyond that I firmly believe we should accept Muntuwandi's very constructive proposal and move on. The whle purpose of thi process is to resolve conflects; let's start resolving them. His proposal:
- we might as well agree to disagree on the question of biological/genetic races and instead focus on SIRE, which is what much of the data is based on. All we would need to mention is that the concept of race from a biological/genetic perspective remains a controversial issue, and simply redirect to the appropriate articles, Race (classification of human beings), race and genetics, human genetic variation and human genetic clustering for further information. However, we do need to mention that some of the critics of research into RI have argued that race is primarily a social construct, and that the failure to create an objective criteria for the definition of human races that can be used consistently, compromises RI research.
- makes perfect sense to me. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:53, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
- Slrubenstein, thank you for the links. Ignore my preceding comment, actually I was not aware you posted something in non-chronological order. Also I posted at the same time Ludwig boxed, so it was rather confusing. I will review those statements and perhaps I can agree to using them as a basis. mikemikev (talk) 22:57, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
- You are welcome! I posted them at the point I rasied them (obviously I should have posted the links origially) because i did not want to disrupt later discussion but I am sorry if it was confusing. As i am sure you know "science" is by definition a field of argumentation, so there is never or seldom unanimity or consensus, but these statements by the worlds' largest orgsanizations of the scientists who work on these issues is the closest we come to an indication of the "mainstream."
- These are contentious topics so it makes sense to use the statements of the scientists who do the research as points of reference. Beyond that I firmly believe we should accept Muntuwandi's very constructive proposal and move on. The whle purpose of thi process is to resolve conflects; let's start resolving them. His proposal:
- The statement by the American Sociological Association is also relevant; the section "Racial Classifications as a Basis for Scientific Inquiry" provides the profession's explanation of what they mean by "social construct" and how race is an object of sociological rather than biological study. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:17, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
The 1996 AAA statement is based on Lewontin's fallacy and can be disregarded. The 2009 AAPA statement seems fine, except for this:
Generally, the traits used to characterize a population are either independently inherited or show only varying degrees of association with one another within each population. Therefore, the combination of these traits in an individual very commonly deviates from the average combination in the population. This fact renders untenable the idea of discrete races made up chiefly of typical representatives.
I would like a reference to a paper proving this statement. mikemikev (talk) 01:21, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
- Dude, you don't understant Wikipedia! If you want to edit here you have to comply with our cor policies. For one thing, editors cannot put their own views into articles. We all know that Edwards thinks Lewontin is wrong. That does not make Lewontin wrong, that just means there is an argument between Edwards and Lewontin. What else is new? Science is filled with arguments. Many consider Ewards to be wrong, for example Witherpoon et. al.[1]. I guess you have not bee following discussion in other sections but Wobble has also explained the problem with relying on genetic clusters as a basis for "racial dientity." The AAA statement is on the AAA website and remais their official statement - it is an organizawtion of about 6,000 scientists, I think. Clearly, they do not agree with Edwards. So, no, you do not get to tell us to disregard the AAA statement. You can believe what you want to. So can I. But Wikipedia is based on significant views from reliable sources. The AAA statement is a significant view from a reliable source.
- That said I again register my view that the AAPA statement is notable.
- Your comment about Neisser et. al. is neither here nor there. It too is a significant view from a notable source. That is all that matters. "This fact seems untenable ..." - you want a source? Dude! Nesser et. al. is the source!! Well, you have questions about it? Go call up Neisser then - I am not stopping you! Maybe he will give you another reference. In the meantime we have significant views from notable sources, time to move on. Slrubenstein | Talk 02:08, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
- This might be a simplistic enough decision to subject to a straw poll (should we use the AAPA definition: yes/no?). would that be helpful here? --Ludwigs2 05:56, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
- I think Slrubenstein should agree that using the 2009 AAPA statement as a principle reference point for writing the R&I article is unacceptable, since it contains an unproven and highly suspect genetic statement, which invalidates the discipline of R&I studies. I for one would be prepared to accept it as a POV. If he can reference the scholar responsible for the statement, that would be helpful. mikemikev (talk) 09:47, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
- I support the AAPA statements on biological aspects of race. Articles that appear in the AAPA are generally "hawkish" on "racial" differences. After all the association's main goal is the study of anatomical differences in human populations. I therfore find it interesting that their statement doesn't differ significantly from statements of other associations. It is my opinion that there is a "mainstream" view on race and biology. There are certain themes that are consistently expressed in the various associations, and also by many other scholars in the field. So far it seems that Mikemikev believes that their statements are all biased. I don't think there is much else that can be done regarding these allegations of bias.
- I think Slrubenstein should agree that using the 2009 AAPA statement as a principle reference point for writing the R&I article is unacceptable, since it contains an unproven and highly suspect genetic statement, which invalidates the discipline of R&I studies. I for one would be prepared to accept it as a POV. If he can reference the scholar responsible for the statement, that would be helpful. mikemikev (talk) 09:47, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Wapondaponda (talk) 11:14, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
- I consider Mikimikev's 09:47, 14 February 2010 statement to be absured on its face. Not only do I reject it, I want to go on the record that I view it is a sign that he not only does not wish to work towards a mediation of any disputes (Is he even a party to the mediation?); I now see him merely as wishing to disrupt this mediation process. The AAPA is an association of virtually all the majore scientists researching human beings as a biological organism. They are real scholars, with credentials - what credentials does Mikemikev have, that enables him to dicmiss such a well-researched, carefully cafted, and authoritative document written and endorsed by the top scientists in the field? Moreover, Wikipedia is founded on the principle that editors do not insert their own points of view we rely instead on significant views from reliable sources. The AAPA is clearly a notable source containing significant views and it is a disgrace that Mikemikev would use this as an opprtunity to force in his own POV. Mikemikev is now revelaed to be a disruptie editor who does not understand biological science, and who does not respect Wiipedia policies. I see no point in feeding this troll and will no longer respond to his disruptive comments.
- I think Muntuandi for his cogent and judicious response. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:45, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Slrubenstein, I feel I have made a valid point. I believe you cannot address it so you are resorting to ad hominem. I strongly resent and deny your allegations.
I am genuinely concerned with what I believe to be inaccuracy being put into wikipedia.
My credentials do not affect my point. I have no desire or obligation to provide personal information. If I am unversed in these issues you will be able to address my points rather than my credentials, unless of course it is you who is unversed in genetics.
Please name some of these major scientists who endorse this AAPA statement. mikemikev (talk) 14:08, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
- @ Mikemike: I've left a message on your talk page. you need to formally sign into the mediation on the main mediation page before you make any further comments.
- I have to say, however, that you are making some fairly unreasonable claims here. the AAPA statement is published in a reliable academic journal, and so it can be taken as a reasonably well-supported, broadly accepted scientific viewpoint. trying to boil it down to individual scientists serves no practical purpose. you are welcome to present other scientific viewpoints that oppose the AAPA perspective, and those will be used to balance the material in the article appropriately, but you cannot unilaterally assert that the AAPA perspective is wrong without referencing some equally noteworthy scientific claim. can you provide a source that opposes or balances the AAPA statement? --Ludwigs2 17:24, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
I don't think that trying to rewrite race and genetics as part of this article is going to be worthwhile. The relavant question for this article is much more narrow. Consider what Nisbett wrote on this:
- Some laypeople I know -- and some scientists as well -- believe that it is a priori impossible for a genetic difference in intelligence to exist between the races. But such a conviction is entirely unfounded. There are a hundred ways that a genetic difference in intelligence could have arisen -- either in favor of whites or in favor of blacks. The question is an empirical one, not answerable by a priori convictions about the essential equality of groups (Nisbett, 2009, p. 94).
That captures most of what's relevant: some people think there's something to be known a priori about the cause of group differences and some think that it's an open empirical question. --DJ (talk) 19:52, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
- Well, DJ, that may actually be a way out of this morass. would it work just to make a brief discussion (a paragraph or so) outlining the genetic v. sociological issues with respect to in intelligence in the literature, note that there's no current scientific conclusion on the matter, and then link over to the race and genetics page? we might be able to put this entire discussion to bed if that would work for everyone. --Ludwigs2 04:30, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
- OK, I signed up. If my contribution is not considered useful here and a significant number of editors let me know now I will happily bow out with apologies.
- I think the quote DJ provided really settles this issue. Nisbett thinks groups (specifically black and white) can possibly have genetic intelligence differences. The quote I provided from the AAPA says they cannot in any useful sense. I would like to make it clear that I am not saying we should discard the AAPA statement. My objection is entirely and only to using it a main point of reference or an accepted statement of current scientific consensus, because it is not. It is a point of view, and should be treated as such.
- Out of curiosity, where in the AAPA statement does it say that groups cannot have genetic intelligence differences? I'm not seeing it. --Ludwigs2 16:13, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
- I’m not seeing it either. The paper says “Although heredity influences the behavioral variability of individuals within a given population, it does not affect the ability of any such population to function in a given social setting.” As far as I can tell, that’s referring to there not being any biological justification for systems like racial segregation, but I think mikemikev might be misreading this part to be in reference to intelligence.
- DJ’s suggestion is pretty similar to what Varoon Arya suggested in the WP:FRINGE discussion, which I quoted on your userpage, so I obviously agree with it. However, I would suggest mentioning that there is a fair amount of consensus that (socially-defined) races can differ in the distribution of biological traits in general. There does not appear to be a consensus about this being possible for IQ per se, because that involves certain other assumptions that not everyone agrees on. (Do IQ tests measure anything meaningful? Is IQ influenced by genes?) If we’re going to be using the APA statement as a guide, though, then we’ll be writing the article under the assumption that the answer to the last two questions is yes, which would mean that whether this is the case for IQ s an empirical question that same as Nisbett is suggesting. Even though the APA does not think the hereditarian hypothesis about race and intelligence is well-supported, they obviously think it’s enough of a possibility to be worthy of further research. --Captain Occam (talk) 17:47, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
- They jump to the conclusion about 'typical representatives', a genetic claim. The jump is from "very commonly deviates from the average". Trait combinations will often deviate from the average (always for complex traits like IQ), the question is how much and whether they correlate for groups. The implication is that the deviation in trait combinations (with genetic causes) is so large from individual to individual as to be uncorrelated and uninformative, which is unsubstantiated. This is my interpretation anyway, the paragraph is so packed with non sequitar and vagueness as to almost defy analysis.
- When you’re reading something like this paper, I think it’s important to keep in mind the typical meanings that phrases like these have acquired in the context of discussing race. They aren’t necessarily the same meanings that these phrases would have in a different context. In discussions about race, “social setting” refers to something much more general than any specific task. It means basically an entire society, and what I think this paper is saying is that there’s no biological reason to assume that black people are unable to function in “white society”. (Or the same for any other two races.)
- In this context, “typical representatives” usually refers to a 19th-century idea that has nothing to do with genetics. The idea back then was that each race could be defined as an ideal set of characteristics, to which everyone who was a “pure” member of this race would conform, kind of like how a roughly spherical object could be described as being either more or less close to a perfect sphere. I assume you’re aware that genetics doesn’t support this idea. I agree it would be nice if the AAPA could have been clearer about what ideas they’re rejecting in their statement, but to someone who’s familiar with this topic it isn’t too difficult to figure out what they’re talking about. --Captain Occam (talk) 22:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
- ok, I think this is part of the problem. we are putting way too much effort into trying to 'interpret' things, and not enough into trying to 'balance' them with other sources. I'm taking it, mike, that you accept this source about 95%, but you are quibbling of a fairly esoteric interpretation. If that's true, I think it's time we accept this source (even though it's not perfect) and move on. if you have a valid source that makes the critique that you are making, we can include that for balance when we get to the writing stage, but I don't want to bog this conversation down any further with esoteric quibbles. can you agree to that? --Ludwigs2 23:40, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
- Why? Wikipedia says we should include all significant views from reliable sources. This is a significant view from a reliable source. If wae want to know what is the mainstream view among scientists, this is a very important document as it represents almost all scholars conducing research on human population genetics and other aspects of humans as biological organism. Does Mikemikev have a bettr source for mainstream views? What exactly are the grounds or Mikemikev rejecting this document? Slrubenstein | Talk 23:18, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
where are we on this discussion point? I though we were close to resolved on it, and I'm not sure how much it overlaps other points that we have resolved. opinions? --Ludwigs2 02:42, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Mikemikev’s point, which nobody attempted to dispute for around three days after he made it, is that the AAPA article does not discuss anything about the IQ difference. Some of what it discusses might be relevant to the Race and genetics article, but nobody seemed able to justify how it’s relevant to Race and intelligence. --Captain Occam (talk) 04:59, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Exactly. The question is not whether it's significant or reliable, but whether it's relevant. About the most relevant sentence I could find is: "The peoples of the world today appear to possess equal biological potential for assimilating any human culture." Note how they use the word 'appear'. So it's an open question, and it's POV. So we're back to "there is currently no established genetic link between race and intelligence". This is all the relevance the AAPA statement has to the article. mikemikev (talk) 10:02, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Why? You are mixing apples and oranges. Of course for any source in question we use that source's definition of race. That is not what "point of reference" means. Our NPOV policy requires us to distinguish between majority, minority, mainstream, and fringe views. To do that we need a point of reference. I think that the official positions of the American Anthropological Association and the American Association of Physical Anthropologists (especially the latter) are the most reliable and significant points of reference for gaging this. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:56, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
- You've had 12 days to explain which parts of the statement are applicable and how. You haven't. You're just repeating yourself. If we are going to use these statements you need to justify it, instead of just saying "we need to use these statements" again and again. These statements make vague claims about "culture", and say nothing about genetic IQ differences. Or am I missing something? mikemikev (talk) 12:16, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Geez, I take a few days off and what happens? look, the AAPA and AAA are (so far as I can tell) perfectly valid and noteworthy sources on this issue. What we have here is not a question of inclusion/exclusion, but rather a question of balance. If you're asking me to make the decision, I would say that we include these sources, and then we can save all this wrangling over how best to present them neutrally in the article.
I want everyone to remember that we have a field here that Kuhn would have called pre-paradigmatic - there is no single wholly accepted viewpoint, but rather an assortment of viewpoints still vying for ascendency. Nothing being presented by reliable sources should be excluded, per crystal ball; it's more a question of balancing things to prevent undue prominence. does that resolve the issue? --Ludwigs2 17:30, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
- Unfortunately it doesn't resolve the issue. The issue is that Slrubenstein wants to use the AAPA and
APAAAA statements as 'priniciple points of reference for identifying majority, minority, mainstream, and fringe views'. I have said many times that I am happy to include the AAPA andAPAAAA statements in terms of presenting one POV (in other words "including these statements"). I am not happy with using them as 'priniciple points of reference for identifying majority, minority, mainstream, and fringe views', without some kind of explanation of what this would entail. I refer to point 3 of the groundrules: "Seek consensus rather than continually repeating the same point." It is your job, Ludwig, to address this. mikemikev (talk) 12:37, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- So fine - there is no disagreement about using the AAPA and APA statements, then that's half the battle - we use them. Now, what sources would you like to use to balance those opinions? --Ludwigs2 14:40, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- I meant to write AAPA and AAA statements, amended it above, sorry about that. As for balancing them, I don't think we need to worry about that. I assume they will be summarized in the 'Official Statements' section, which is fine by me, all relevant official statements can be summarized here. Exactly how the AAPA statement will be summarized with regard to R&I is unclear to me, but then again I'm equally happy to ignore these statements. mikemikev (talk) 11:52, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
- Ok. let's let them go in and see how they are used, and if they really look out of place we can open a discussion about whether to remove them or find other material that places them in perspective. --Ludwigs2 15:23, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
"Gene" and "genetic" in the context of psychometric research
I'd like to point something out. Hopefully it will help to get us back on track.
"Gene" in psychometric research is a stand-in substantive for "hereditary". Psychometricians can measure the degree to which a trait is heritable - which is, of course, not the same thing as identifying specific genes which are involved in the expression of that trait. The actual "genetic" research which is pulled into this debate is secondary in the sense that it attempts to corroborate psychometric findings regarding heritability. When a psychometrician says a trait has a large "genetic" component, he's saying it is highly heritable. He's not claiming to have identified "genes" for intelligence - though he may well take information from genetic research to corroborate his psychometric claim. The use of "race" in psychometric research should be understood and presented in light of this fact. In other words, whether "races" can be described "genetically" is of little to no interest to the psychometrician. What is of great interest to him is the fact that "races" appear to differ significantly in their expression of a highly heritable trait. This debate centres around trying to figure out why that is. --Aryaman (talk) 06:07, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- You just said "no one claims to have identified genes for intelligence", and no editor ever wrote otherwise. So why add a disclaimer about something which, literally, no one in the world asserts as being true? TechnoFaye Kane 03:36, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that heritability isn't exactly equivalent to genetics. I have previously suggested that genetics of intelligence, which currently redirects to heritability of IQ, should in fact be a separate article. In most cases where a trait is highly heritable, a specific gene or set of genes which affect the trait will be identified. However, with epigenetic inheritance, traits can be passed on without the influence of genes but with the influence of other external factors. Though epigenetics is beyond the scope of this controversy, nonetheless it is useful to point out that it is possible for a trait to be heritable without specific gene action. Wapondaponda (talk) 13:17, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- I agree 100% with Wapondaponda, who I think makes and has made the case quite elegantly. If Aryaman agrees with Wapondaponda we have made majore progress towards resoving conflicts. If Aryaman disagrees with Muntuwandi then this is another issue to address in this mediation. Do we have consensus to support Wapondaponda? My ie is simple: a non-biologist is certainly within her rights to ask if some difference between blacks and whites is genetic (heritable). It is for biologists to say "We cannot answer that question," or "We can answer that question, but we have not yet found the answer," or "We have the answer." Slrubenstein | Talk 23:49, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
- Seeing as I understood Wapondaponda's comment as being in agreement with my own, I have no problem agreeing with it. The fact is, we don't know. It may well turn out that both the environmental and hereditarian models are partially correct, e.g. the difference could, in fact, be due to biological traits which are heritable within social races but which arise primarily as a result of environmental interaction, the nature of which is largely determined by culture, and which in turn shapes biologically important factors such as reproduction patterns, longevity, and the transmission of successful traits. One would think that genetic research will eventually answer the question for us. But I suspect that by the time we are in a position to postulate a relatively conclusive answer, we will have rendered that answer largely meaningless. --Aryaman (talk) 11:48, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
- First of all, what is SIRE? Also:
- > Do we have consensus to support Wapondaponda?
- Sadly, we don't. I'm as tired of this as you are, but it's not just opinionated people looking at this article; curious people read it too, and they expect the truth.
- Suppose you took the green-eyed people and called them a "race", as AProck suggested, and suppose most of the green-eye race self-reported having 11 toes, but almost everyone else has 10. Then assuming that green eyes is genetically determined:
- 1) Would you deny that having green eyes correlates with having too many toes?
- 2) Would you deny that having extra toes is probably genetic?
- 3) Would you agree that the green-eyed stranger who just walked in the front door probably has 11 toes?
- 4) Would you call the "green-eyed people, on average, have more toes" theory unreasonable? Is it fringe science unworthy of Wikipedia?
- 4) Though it's POSSIBLE that extra toes are caused by Frankenstein-like surgery in the delivery room, would you want that statement in Wikipedia?
- So how is R/I different? Eye color = self-reported race, and 11 toes = stupid (or whatever the polite word is). Why is this a false analogy?
- > It's certainly possible to reach genetic conclusions about any population of people.
- Yes, and one genetic conclusion that strongly fits the data is that the negroid population, on average, has the intelligence corresponding to an IQ of 80. At very least, it's certainly the MOST LIKELY explanation of an 80 IQ score.
- What's the problem with saying so? It's not a racist judgment; it's a passive, emotionless observation. TechnoFaye Kane 08:38, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
- SIRE is "Self Identified Race/Ethnicity". With respect to the gedanken experiment, if there was strong evidence that environmental effects common to the green eyed people were known to cause the growth of an extra toe, that would have to be considered as well. A.Prock 08:50, 10 February 2010 (UTC)\
- Not if you correct for the fact that Hostess Twinkies also cause extra toes by eliminating the twinkie-eaters and the difference STILL exists.03:47, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
- Reading between the lines, it doesn't sound like an "emotionless" argument. Using words like "stupid" isn't helpful during dispute resolution. Wapondaponda (talk) 14:00, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
- SIRE is "Self Identified Race/Ethnicity". With respect to the gedanken experiment, if there was strong evidence that environmental effects common to the green eyed people were known to cause the growth of an extra toe, that would have to be considered as well. A.Prock 08:50, 10 February 2010 (UTC)\
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- Why, since that's what we're talking about? Unbiased, duplicated IQ tests show that whites are, on average, stupider than Asians. SO WHAT?? I'm a white woman, but that doesn't make most white people as smart as Asians. I am all-too aware that non-austics take (literally) everything personally, but isn't it little extreme to take offense at something said not of you, but of other people who look vaguely like you?
- It's surreal to hear: "Blacks' 6% smaller brains is unrelated to their testing as retarded". Would you care to go on Oprah's show and say "most black people have smaller brains because most black women drink heavily"? If not, it's cowardly to say it anonymously in Wikipedia. My best guess is that, like Gould, some well-meaning editors feel that a genetic basis for blacks being stupid should be denied by scientistseven if it is true. (Gould citation on request). TechnoFaye Kane 03:36, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Sorry; seems like I put my comment here in the wrong section. I find browsing through all this info less than straightforward.
I can dig up the cite if you think it's helpful, but scores on the WPT correlate something like .90 with scores on the WAIS. The WPT takes only 12 minutes to administer...
184.59.172.151 (talk) 23:10, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Interim report on the hijacking of this mediation by a group of biased editors
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This is only to document the obvious bias of the new moderator and his gang for a future challenge of the validity of the scientifically-laughable propaganda he and his friends intend to force onto wikipedia. It may also be useful to a 23rd-century graduate student reasearching her dissertation: "Self-Delusion and Science in Uncivilized Times". I don't expect a reply--at least, not one that adresses my objections. So, to whom it may concern: I asked the moderator several specific questions illustrating the logical absurdity and contradictions inherent in his justification for suppressing legitimate peer-reviewed research and substituting doubletalk. For example, ludwig said "I understand there is research that links SIRE to clusters of genes, but...", and I asked him if he would now promise not to say that no genetic link with SIRE has been shown. He answered NONE of these very relevant questions. It can reasonably inferred that this is because either he hasn't visited this page in five days, or because he's painted himself into a logic corner--to reply, he'd have to do the logical equivalent of proving that 2+2=5. In other contexts, they call this "checkmate". Had this been done by any other editor, the moderator would step in and request responses to my objections and answers to my questions. But in the present case, it is the moderator himself who ignored my concerns--tending to illustrate the bias and cynical disingenuity of the PC pablum about to be added to Wikipedia. I then asked to see the source of what appears to be a political statement masquerading as a scientific one. I asked: "What psychology article concluded that there is no evidence that these loci correlate with race?" But he ignored that question too. What he DID do was insert more non-sequitor doubletalk, to wit:
...except that none of my objections were that something is "obvious". In fact, that word does not appear in my post.
...Which is exactly what I am (or was) trying to make happen, until I "wised up" and realized just what was actually going on here. For example, he said that correlation does not imply causation. I replied: |
Those specific [race] genes don't HAVE to be proven to influence intelligence! They only need to CORRELATE with intelligence for us to say so.
The cave men just had to notice that pregnancy only happens after f*cking. They don't need to understand estrogen hydrolysis to infer that the latter is probably the cause of the former.
But his response was to repeat the statement I had just pointed out was a non-sequitor:
- Correlation does not equal causation: even a perfect correlation between two variables does not tell us anything about what 'causes' the perfect correlation.
That is to say, my objection was not addressed.
Another question I'd like an answer to:
Give an example of this "synthesys" you say is taking place, wherein two unrelated facts are juxtaposed to fallsely imply that the facts ARE related. And don't say "Every6 time ice cream consumption in America rises, the cholera mortality rate rises on an identical curve [because they both happen in the summer]" Give an example of synthesis from this mediation. I have to understand what it is so I can make sure not to do it.
Now, with characteristic childlike gullibility, I will assume that this is an honest discussion instead of the POV charade we all know it to be, and reply to "correlation does not equal causation" again:
a) So what?
b) No, but who said it was?
c) That's not good enough a reason to suppress publication of strong correllations.
d) No, but correllation is the smoke to the fire of certainty. It tells scientists where to look for the smoking gun
One more question:
Do you intend to tell our curious readers (assuming proper citations):
- On average, people calling themselves "African-American" have an average IQ of 80, which is borderline retarded. This may be due to their brains being, on average, 6% smaller than the brains of people reporting themselves as "Asian". This corresponds to a brain volume difference of about one-quarter of a kitchen measuring cup and [x] trillion neural synapses.
I think this should go at the very top, in the summary, because it's extremely relevant to the question this article addresses, which is "why do some races appear to be either more or less intelligent than other races"?
If you elect not to present this true and uncontested information, please tell me the untrue or contested part.
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Because if you don't, and instead ignore this question (and the others in my previous post) I shall assume you have no objection to my adding it to the top of whatever "sanitized" version you eventually come up with. In particular, you cannot validly say "this was resolved in mediation which she was part of; ban her for being disruptive". In short, I expect that this shameful outrage will continue until an "official" article on R/I is published containing statements by the unqualified, (e.g. ASA), contradictions of proven facts, omission of conclusive but inconvienient facts for trivial, nonsensical or no reason, and mischaracterization of positions contrary to the Mandatory Belief which is compromising the integrity of Wikipedia. TechnoFaye Kane 13:59, 25 February 2010 (UTC) |
- Faye, I am trying to work with you, but my hands are tied here. you have not presented research that demonstrates the point you're trying to make. let's look at all your points:
- On average, people calling themselves "African-American" have an average IQ of 80 (that would be (SIRE -'calling themselves' = self-report, I assume)
- On average, people calling themselves "African-American" have a brain size 6% smaller than the brains of people reporting themselves as "Asian"
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- there are two problems with this material that you have failed to address - address them, and we can include them:
- You have not provided sources for either of these claims. I don't know whether they are true or false, myself, but I have not yet seen a reliable source that makes these claims.
- Granting that there are sources for both, the statement that these two claims are related is unsupportable. there has been a lot of research into the relationship of brain volume and IQ, and as I understand it (which I may not). can you show me something in sources that says the issue has been resolved?
- The basic fact of wikipedia is that we don't publish material because we think it's 'true'; we publish material that reliable sources have come to accept. I certainly understand what you're saying, and I (personally) have no idea whether it is right or wrong. all I want to see here is what experts in the field are saying, and they are not saying what you're saying here.
- I'm archiving the more 'rant-like' portions of your post. please try to remain civil, no matter how upset you are. --Ludwigs2 16:16, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
Parallel case: the American Sociological Association says liberals average 11 IQ points smarter than conservatives
I've been facing incessant reversion at Conservativism in the United States and Modern liberalism in the United States over a sentence I've tried to add:
- According to the ASA, "Add Health" data found an average IQ of 106 for adolescents identifying as "very liberal", versus IQ of 95 for calling themselves "very conservative".[2][3]
After some unusual excuses (an American Sociological Association press release isn't good enough; they need to go over the full text of the primary paper) one editor got to the meat of the matter
- (Undid revision 346455316 by Wnt (talk) sigh even if it's true it's way too POV for wikipedia, at this current time anyway....)[15]
Specifically referencing this article as a precedent.[16]
This is the second study reporting such a correlation.[17]
I haven't edited Race and intelligence, but I hope this parallel situation will inform the mediators. Wnt (talk) 04:00, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
P.S. Have you considered epigenetics? Trofim Lysenko had a point:[18] In near future your gap should be gone.
- I think the press releases are indeed very bad sources. What we need to know is the context (most of our policies point out that context is essential to presenting a POV accurately withou violating NOR). Is the ASA simply reporting a research finding and saying "we don't know why?" Or are they using this as a way to say smart people become liberals? Or are they saying liberals have access to better education i.e. this is mediated by class? Or are they making fun of people use IQ data in relation to race? Wikipedia SHOULD be adding "POV" material, that is basic NPOV. But without knowing the context, you can't possibly be portraying the POV in question accurately. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:05, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
- Wrong again, rube. Press releases are as credible as the organization releasing them. They are abstracts for the general public. If you want to read the details of ANY of these studies, you have to pay big money.
- In fact, in general, press releases are BETTER for wikipedia because the data, conclusions, and relevance are already reworded for popular consumption by people very familiar with it. The important is emphasized and the trivial is deemphasized, and the experts are quoted correctly. It is only when WE try to summarize research that context and bias come into play. Your own disingenuous objections are probably the best example. Plus, press releases are professionally written, and by their nature, it is okay to extensively quote them verbatum without special permission.
- You are also mistaken in saying "Wikipedia should be adding POV material,that is basic NPOV." No rubenstien, POV is not NPOV. NPOV is controlled, replicated, peer-reviewed conclusions published in reputable academic journals. POV is the opinion of a teenager in his parents' basement. TechnoFaye Kane 05:43, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
How much hereditarian?
Wapondaponda writes "However I haven't seen any progress on the core problem, which is how much of the hereditarian hypothesis would be included in the article." I agree that this is the core problem. I would be interested to know what other editors think is the answer. David.Kane (talk) 17:29, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
- Well, it's been established that hereditarianism isn't fringe but minority, that's progress. I guess as long as environmentalism gets more treatment than hereditarianism, but hereditarianism gets a fair chunk, we're in the right ball park. mikemikev (talk) 17:56, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed I do feel that there is a rush to write an article when a lot has not been resolved. In addition to the space for the hereditarian hypothesis, a few other issues remain unresolved. There were concerns that the current article is too long. So we would need to agree on an appropriate article length. It might also be a good idea to decide on the section headings. The proposal of a disambiguation page, which was first suggested by Slrubenstein and Aprock, has been forgotten, though I still believe it is a viable proposal. This, because it addresses the space for the hereditarian hypothesis and the size issue as well. Wapondaponda (talk) 06:20, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
- Just to clarify mikemikev's comment, hereditarian research isn't fringe. It's the conclusions of some of the more oft cited researchers which are fringe. A.Prock 21:41, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
- "It's the conclusions of some of the more oft cited researchers which are fringe"? Excuse me, but that's A.Prock of sh*t. "The most often-cited research" is more than just non-fringe, it is the DEFINITION of mainstream -- particularly when the only other hypothesis has been thoroughly proved wrong. TechnoFaye Kane 05:53, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- Aprock, please refrain from 'clarifying' my comments. If you want clarification you can ask. The hereditarian conclusions are a significant minority in the psychology/behavioural genetics community. The 'mainstream' is: "I don't know". Environmentalism is another minority. This has been resolved by Aryaman, don't try to question resolved points. mikemikev (talk) 22:20, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
- I was clarifying with respect to the consensus that the mediation formed. Sorry that I didn't make that clear. Specifically, I should have written
A.Prock 00:02, 4 March 2010 (UTC)Research into race and intelligence is not "fringe", some of the conclusions drawn from that research are highly contentious and need to be presented as such in the article.
- Thank you, A.Prock. Distinguishing between "research" and "conclusions" indeed brings clarifity to Mikemikev's comment. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:07, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
- I was clarifying with respect to the consensus that the mediation formed. Sorry that I didn't make that clear. Specifically, I should have written
I don't have the faintest idea what you're arguing about. this seems very straight-forward:
- we've acknowledged that the hereditarian hypothesis is not fringe
- we've acknowledged that the hereditarian hypothesis is not the majority opinion
the rest is balancing. as we write, we just need to take care that the research on the hereditarian stuff doesn't turn into an ever-expanding mass that dominates the article. that may mean being selective about what we include, or excluding the more fringish hereditarian positions, or at extreme need creating a content fork that deals specifically with the hereditarian view. but these are all points that are undecidable until we start writing and revising. I see this debate as a non-starter. --Ludwigs2 17:37, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Contributing to this topic?
Hello
I was asked by a user here about the possibility of contributing to this wiki topic. I have zero experience editing wiki, so if this is the wrong place to discuss the issue, my apologies.
My name is Bryan Pesta. I have 5 articles on intelligence; one specifically on race and IQ. While I do think I am qualified to discuss this stuff, I have no expertise nor interest in the genetics of race. I see most of the discussion here seems to hinge on this.
My personal take is that self-reports of race have scientific "baggage" but are indeed a good proxy for the biology of race (whatever that is). I also believe we can measure things before we have a complete definition of what exactly we're measuring. I often see people argue that unless we can define race with 100% certainty as a biological / genetic construct, then the construct has no scientific merit. In my opinion, that's stupid.
Since people can't be randomly assigned to races, and since social-cultural baggage is attached to the term, the burden of proof (initially) is one those who claim biological race is predictive. I think we now have decades of research showing this burden's been met (i.e., controlling for factor x variables in the environment-- gobs of them-- does not remove the race difference. And, the difference maps on to basic brain and mental processes...).
So, my opinion is that the burden's now on those who claim race is 100% cultural or social. Explain how these data are possible.
I link below to my IQ articles. I don't have lots of time to devote to debating this back and forth here, but if you think I can make a contribution, I would be willing to give it a shot (again depending on time factors and how much work this would be).
Thanks.
http://facultyprofile.csuohio.edu/csufacultyprofile/publications.cfm?FacultyID=B_PESTA —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.65.173.106 (talk) 01:06, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
- Ok - you've been introduced above, so feel free to pitch in to the discussion where you see fit. let me know if you need technical help or guidance. --Ludwigs2 23:33, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- Welcome to the Wide World of Wiki, Dr. Pesta -- your 2008 article is both interesting and relevant to this discussion!
- But you should know that we in this community end our contributions to discussions with four tilde-characters (below the Esc key). This causes our login name to be appended instead of a meaningless IP address. That way, everyone can keep track of who said what.
- Say, if Dr. Pesta quotes his own academic articles, is that "original research"? I asked someone years ago if Niel Armstrong could contribute to the Aopollo 11 article and the guy who answered me said no. Is there an official policy on this? TechnoFaye Kane 09:28, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- Dr.Pesta cannot add her own views to the article; that would violate NOR. However, if Dr. Pesta has published views in a reliable source (as is certainly the case with the articles she has published) she can most definitely add them to the article without violating NOR. If Neil Armstrong were to add his own views or account of Apollo 11 or the Apollo program to an article, he would be violating NOR. IF however he has published his views in a reliable source, or has ben quoted in a reliable source (e.g. an interview in a major newspaper or magazine) he may add that material, properly cited, without violating NOR. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:49, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Thanks techno faye! Btw, I obviously don't have a clue with regard to editing wiki so if I'm not supposed to be posting here, I apologize. I also posted a few paragraphs two days ago, but it must not have gone through.
The gist was without a more narrow focus, I don't see you all completing this wiki. One doesn't need a 100% precise genetic definition or race (nor IQ) to review the large literature on self-reported race and IQ scores. Enough variables now have been statistically controlled to make some tentative conclusions. I think people set the bar too high in this area (obviously, the topic is emotional, but at base it is no different from any other topic in terms of evidence needed. For example, evidence for stereotype threat if gobs more suspect than is evidence for race differences on IQ scores).
99.65.173.106 (talk) 04:37, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Continuing (sorry, IF should be IS in my last sentence above):
My opinion is that links to the genetics of race and links to IQ scores as a proxy for g could be featured in the stub (?) here. Disclaimers that neither genetic-race nor IQ can be defined with 100% precision (depending on what level of reductionism one requires) could go in this stub. A disclaimer that this is not necessary to scientifically study both topics should then be added as well.
I also think that expertise is not a dichotomy but a continuum. One might have Read Mismeasure, or took an undergrad class in psychometrics, or got a graduate degree in the area, or publishes a bit in the best journals in the field, or publishes LOTS in the best journals.
Even journals vary in quality and relevance to the field. I hope that users here would agree that Intelligence is the premiere journal in the field and articles therein should get much consideration for citation here.
Some things I think the field "knows":
1. Race is indeed a biological construct, QED. It causes changes in skin color across humans and some other "stereotypical" physical differences across race. I'm ok with defining race, for now, as skin color and all (biologically) that correlates with it. In fact, let the geneticists figure it out in a different stub (I personally have little interest in the genetics of race).
2a. Race is not a dichotomy (not black and white...). It's rather a continuum. Demanding that a line be drawn in the sand that discretely separates white from black (e.g.) is unfair / too high a burden, especially if no such line exists (it's the fuzzy categories idea).
2b. I think the handedness is a perfect analogy. There is no clear distinction between left and right handed. It's a continuum. Some people (me) are wholly left handed and can't do anything well right handed. Others lean moreso to the left; some are ambidextrous, and the continuum continues for right handedness. There are even scales that measure handedness on a continuum. Same applies to race (dunno how many arguments I've been in where someone shows me a mixed race person and demands that I classify him as black or white. Failure to do so, in their mind, proves that races don't exist). Do left handers and right handers not exist because we can search the internet and find someone truly ambidextrous?
3a. No environmental manipulation, nor no study that controls (via regression or multiple regression) environmental factors explains the gap. There's so much of the research that the "weakest" conclusion is: No simple environmental factor(s) explain the gap. A stronger conclusion appeals to genes. I'm not there yet personally. I think the difference is biological (faster, more efficient brains ON AVERAGE across race groups). I'm not convinced this can't be environmental (some multiple regression yet to be done including pre-natal development, nutrition levels and other stuff might remove the gap). On the other hand, I'm not sure what the next research project is for people who claim it's 100% environmental.
4a. Realize that categorization forms a heirarchy. Superordinate level (human) Basic level (race) sub-ordinate (korean, japanese).
Too many people in my past point to some sub-ordinate category, point out problems in classification, and suggest that that creates problems for the basic-level category. It does not.
5. Utility: This is a poor argument. The increase in human well-being that could come from solving this problem is vast. Just looking a simple z score analysis proves this. The over or under representation of individuals in groups where the mean difference is 1 standard deviation is vast. At the aggregate level, race differences on IQ provide a parsimonious explanation (not saying it's the correct explanation-- more data are needed) for the massive race inequality experienced in most every country. This stuff is not trivial, whatever the explanation. I believe that no other problem (perhaps global warming) would have a higher ROI, were we to invest money in figuring it out and solving it. Good luck there (see last point).
Last point. True experts in the field are being demeaned, defamed and marginalized. This is important and should be mentioned. There are perhaps many motives to study race and IQ. Not all of them are to show the white man is the shits. Not all of them are racist. To the extent I do another race and iq study, it will be focused on using science to predict/control/understand something in the interest of increasing human well-being.
Sorry for any typos-- getting late here
99.65.173.106 (talk) 05:06, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Welcome to Wikipedia, Mr. Pesta, and thanks for offering us your input here. (This is Microraptor/Tetrapteryx, whom you’ve talked to on AIM.) Learning the proper format for editing Wikipedia is definitely worth doing eventually, but even before you’ve acquired these skills your advice is still valuable to us.
- One thing I’d recommend doing as soon as it’s convenient, though, is registering an account here and posting while logged into it. It’s not against Wikipedia’s rules to post anonymously, but registering and logging in is still considered by a lot of people here to be a matter of common courtesy. The create account / login link should be at the top right of most of the pages here. --Captain Occam (talk) 09:53, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Hello Mr. Pesta, I read through your article on race and IQ. One thing I found interesting was that, though the B/W means for inspection time differed very significantly, the black standard deviation was at least 2.5 times larger than the white standard deviation. The lower bound of the black standard deviation is below the lower bound of the white standard deviation. The white standard deviation can effectively be nested in the black standard deviation. My understanding of statistics is only rudimentary, but I guess this means there was more variability from the "black" samples than the "white" samples. To a lesser extent, a similar pattern is found with reaction time. Wapondaponda (talk) 10:39, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
- As for race being a biological construct, I don't believe it is quite that simple. You mention that race is biological because it causes skin color differences, but the same argument can be made for blonds and brunettes, because they are biologically different with regard to hair color. I would say that self identified race correlates with geographical ancestry, which in turn correlates with certain biological or genetic variables. As a result, self identified race does have some biological or genetic correlates. But it should be emphasized, that these are only correlates and not precise relationships. There are either very few or no fixed differences between races and most variation is found within a race rather than between races. Looking at your hierarchy, I would add one more level, which is the individual. Hopefully in the future, knowledge of one's genome, may make self identified race, or any other subcategory, meaningless.
- There are some important arguments in the section entitle "utility of study". The problem however is that studies involving the biology and genetics of human behavior are already occurring and major breakthroughs are almost an inevitability. I have suggested including a section on ethics. Such a section can include arguments for and against IQ/ genetics/race research. But it can also deal with the ethical problems that will arise when genes that influence the normal variation in intelligence are identified.
- I definitely agree with Mr. Pesta that this subject is no trivial matter. Unfortunately, the subject of human differences in intelligence is often reduced to supposed race differences in intelligence, though a full range of IQ scores is found in any population. This means that the issue of low IQ scores affects every population.
- Jensen and co often claim to be dispassionate scientists with no ideological motives. But their studies are quite popular amongst certain conservative groups, racialists and racists, who tend to be the most outspoken about the controversy. Their studies are therefore viewed as giving tacit support to racialists and racists. It would appear that Jensen and co. haven't done enough to assure the public that this is not the case. Gould, who was more of an egalitarian, appeared to have won the PR wars. Mismeasure still seems to be the most widely cited publication on the controversy according to google, [19]. Of course, there are many individuals who are not racists who may believe in genetic explanations, however they do not do so in public because they do not want to appear to support those with racist motives. Unless individuals who are clearly not racist begin to publicly support genetic explanations, hereditarian theories are likely to remain minority or fringe views. Wapondaponda (talk) 15:23, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't notice this comment til just now. I suspect the bigger SD for blacks in my study was due to the fact I ran far fewer of them compared with whites. SD involves dividing by sample size, so that might explain it (it could also be that blacks are more variable...I dunno).
re race: if only hair color inequality were a huge issue with respect to human well-being, I'd agree. Hair colors are not over or under-represented on many key outcome variables (job opps; education; health, crime, etc). As far as I know, hair color doesn't correlate with anything. Whatever the cause, race-inequality has been a major issue for likely 1000s of years. If indeed there is something biological-- or genetic -- causing the gap, then we should study it and fix it. Not studying it scientifically is ostrich like and immoral (my assumption is that if there is a way to fix it, only science will figure it out).
It is unfortunate that racists get off on this research, but not everyone interested in this topic is a racist (Jensen, Rushton, Lynn, all believe the Asian mean IQ is higher than the White IQ, which to me is an odd kind of racism, unless people assert that they're publishing data on Asian's only as a short-term ruse to get people to accept the black/white difference. That sounds too conspiracy theorist to me). I had limited interactions with all 3 at ISIR two years ago. We did not hold any white pride rallies...fwiw.
I think Gould's heart was in the right place, but not his "science". He's a brilliant writer, but my opinion is his book here did a dis-service to reality. Resolving this is as important as figuring out global warming (imo). I can't think of any other area where a scientific fix would so vastly increase human well-being. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.65.173.184 (talk) 02:23, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Ooop, keep forgetting to sign off.
99.65.173.184 (talk) 02:23, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
- If a sample is representative, then sample size shouldn't significantly affect SD, [www.childrens-mercy.org/stats/weblog2006/StandardDeviation.asp]. Since there are only about 200 individuals in your study, a visual inspection of the raw data might help resolve this difference. Wapondaponda (talk) 11:07, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
- Also, what is the evidence that race inequality has been a problem for thousands of years? Not very scientific statement! As for Gould, I do not know of any scientist who has disprovem any of his claims about race, which as an evolutionary scientist was one of his areas of expertise. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:18, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
I meant to change that to 100s of years; point conceded.
99.65.173.184 (talk) 16:47, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
3/10 update on the hijacking of this mediation by a group of biased editors
It should be noted that I asked the moderator several specific, relevant questions illustrating the logical contradictions inherent in his justification for suppressing legitimate peer-reviewed research. My questions were serious and clearly relevant (e.g., when someone pushing the same POV quoted "a psychology article" I asked for the source of the article.)
When I pointed out that his reply answered none of these relevant questions, he buried that statement as "off topic".
Later, I said that on average, people calling themselves "African-American" have an average IQ of 80. The moderator said my statement was "unsourced", even though that IQ gap is the topic of this article. He then said "I don't know whether [that statement is] true or false, myself, but I have not yet seen [it in] a reliable source." I include this here because his objection is observed to be insincere when compared with his earlier statement: "To my understanding, there is a statistically significant difference in IQ scores between races"' -- indicating a political agenda subcontext. TechnoFaye Kane 09:07, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Questions and answers
Ludwig requested sources for these statements:
STATEMENT 1:
On average, people calling themselves "African-American" have an IQ score of approximately 80; 70 in subsaharan Africa".
SOURCES:
Roth, P. L., Bevier, C. A., Bobko, P., Switzer, F. S., III, & Tyler, P. (2001). Ethnic group differences in cognitive ability in employment. This is a meta-review of hundreds of studies which reach this conclusion-- a conclusion no longer considered controversial in the scientific community, as Ludwig well knows.
STATEMENT 2:
On average, people calling themselves "African-American" have a brain size 5% smaller than the brains of people calling themselves "white".
SOURCES:
Harvey, I., Persaud, R., Ron, M. A., Baker, G., & Murray, R. M. (1994). Volumetric MRI measurements in bipolars compared.
Beals, K. L., Smith, C. L., & Dodd, S. M. (1984). Brain size, cranial morphology, climate, and time machines. Current Anthropology, 25, 301–330.
Ho, K. C., Roessmann, U., Straumfjord, J. V., & Monroe, G. (1980). Analysis of brain weight: I and II. Archives of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine, 104, 635–645.
Johnson FW. Race and sex differences in head size and IQ. Intelligence 1994; 18: 309-33.
Joiner TE. Head size as an explanation of the race-measured IQ
relation: negative evidence from child and adolescent samples. Sci
Rev Ment Health Prac 2004; 3: 23-32.
Simmons K. Cranial capacities by both plastic and water techniques with cranial linear measurements. Hum Biol 1942; 14: 473-98.
Rushton JP. Cranial size and IQ in Asian Americans from birth to age seven. Intelligence 1997; 25: 7-20.
Rushton JP. Mongoloid-Caucasoid differences in brain size from
military samples [and NASA]. Intelligence 1991; 15: 351-9.
Statement 2 has been acknowledged as true by Ulri Neisser, Chair of the APA’s Task Force on intelligence,. Neisser, U. (1997). Never a dull moment. American Psychologist, 52, 79–81.
Statement 2 has also been acknowledged as true by Richard Nisbett, the major opponent of the hereditarian model: "According to a number of studies, Blacks have smaller brains than Whites." Nisbett, R.E. Intelligence and how to get it: why schools and cultures count. New York: Norton 2009.
But just to be sure, Ludwig2 threw another roadblock to presenting the horrible truth in Wikipedia:
- "Granting that there are sources for both [statements 1 and 2], the statement that these two claims are related is unsupportable", and he requested sources.
SOURCES RELATING BRAIN SIZE AND IQ:
Gignac G, Vernon PA,Wickett JC. Factors influencing the relationship
between brain size and intelligence. In: Nyborg H, Ed. The
scientific study of general intelligence: Tribute to Arthur R. Jensen.
London: Elsevier 2003; pp. 93-106.
"It is true that the correlation between brain size and IQ may be as high as .40." Nisbett, R.E. Intelligence and how to get it: why schools and cultures count. New York: Norton 2009.
I now request that statements 1, 2 be included in the R/I article, as stated earlier by the moderator, who said:
- "there are two problems with this material [statements 1 and 2] that you have failed to address - address them, and we can include them."
The moderator's new excuse for omitting relevant, published, noncontroversial data after saying he would if I sourced it will be the next installment of "documenting this biased moderation". -- Faye Kane, Homeless Brain TechnoFaye Kane 07:52, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
WP Fringe debate
Some comments on that section. I started a new topic, since I am a newb, and that section said do not modify...
1. All experts are not equal. If one accepts that Intelligence is the premier journal in the field (it is the only journal solely devoted to this topic) then the best experts are those who publish regularly in this journal. These people are devoting their academic lives to studying this topic; they hands down know it better than anyone else. "Science's" view on IQ is best represented by them, and not some other field.
2. Many many popular books attacking IQ research (from Gould to Nisbett) come from people out of field. As far as I know, neither Gould, nor Nisbett have published in Intelligence. They are certainly not regular contributors now (or when Gould was alive). Most of these books are much about politics than science.
3. If you don't accept Intelligence as the premier authority, then the burden's on you to explain why (it's peer-reviewed; the best scholars in the field sit as editors; and it's impact factor is above 3.0). The mainstream view *is* Intelligence, as any other journal or field lacks the expertise (which places the burden on others to show why the stuff published in Intelligence should be disregarded-- or even why it's so often ignored whereas this much data on any other topic would lead to no-brainer acceptance).
4. Neither Jensen, Lynn nor Rushton are therefore fringe. All of them sit on the editorial board. Jensen would easily make an objective list of top 100 psychologists all time (using scholarly output and impact as measures, even if time shows everything he said to be wrong). Look at either Lynn or Rushton's vita. They would get full professor at any school in the world were their work not so controversial. Both have published in elite journals outside their field (APA journals as well). Gottfredson even has an article/letter/commentary in Science.
5. I agree that there's not enough evidence to state strongly that the genetic hypothesis is true. What makes me inclined to consider it is the abject failure of the environmental hypothesis to explain most any of the data. Since if it's not environmental/cultural, it has to be genetic (excluded middle?), it seems to me like the 100% environmental model is doomed. That becomes only indirect (though perhaps valid-deductively) evidence for genetics, however.
6. My hunch is that the hardcore of regular contributors would by a majority (but not 100%) agree that the 100% environmental hypothesis is false. I have no data on this, it's an impression based on my interaction with some of them, and publishing (just 3) articles there, and peer-reviewing for the journal more than a few times.
Bpesta22 (talk) 20:04, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Intelligence may be the leading journal on intelligence research. it is not at all the leading journal on research into race. Gould's The Mismeasure of Man may be controversial, but it is a well respected study on research on race. I am not sure how you define science and politics, but as far as I can tell it is a work on science and of science, not politics.
- Can you state for me by the way what the "environmental hypothesis" is? There is much talk about it here but i have yet to be told what the hypothesis is.
- Your reasoning "Since if it's not environmental/cultural, it has to be genetic (excluded middle?), it seems to me like the 100% environmental model is doomed. That becomes only indirect (though perhaps valid-deductively) evidence for genetics, however." strikes me as silly on its face. You have already agreed that the genetics hypothesis is not true. By your reasoning, this means the environmental hypothesis (and I still do not know what that is, precisely) is true. In fact, all you have said is that no particular hypothesis has yet to be confirmed. So this statement of your is just a non-sequitor. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:34, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Let's not have this erupt again. We've established group consensus on this point, and we don't need to rehash it. Bpesta is free to voice his opinion on the topic, but arguing with him over it is not going to result in anything constructive. And, Slrubenstein, opening a conversation with another editor with what amounts to "I haven't understood what you mean, so you're obviously contradicting yourself, you boob" is not exactly putting your best foot forward. How about asking for clarification before going for the jugular? --Aryaman (talk) 22:03, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Fair enough. Let's start with this: "agree that there's not enough evidence to state strongly that the genetic hypothesis is true. What makes me inclined to consider it is the abject failure of the environmental hypothesis to explain most any of the data." I have three questions.
- First, what is meant by "the environmental hypothesis?" "The environment" is a very complicated thing and to refer simply to "the environment" sounds awfully vague. I find it hard to imagine any hypothesis that simply states "the environment." Hypotheses use quantities in models to make predictions about what will be observed in either a controlled or uncontrolled setting. Hypotheses can be falsified. Frankly, I can imagine a dozen different environmental hypotheses off the top of my head, so which hypothesis are we talking about and how has it been tested?
- second, can you actually put the "genetic hypothesis" in the form of a hypothesis? How would one test it? how would one falisfy it? Is it indeed testable or not? Is it falsafiable or not?
- third, what is the difference between saying that the genetic hypothesis so far has no evidence to support it, and saying that the environmental hypothesis has failed abjectly? These seems like pretty uneven-handed language. If there is no evidence to support the genetic hypothesis, has it not "failed abjectly?"
- I find these statements confusing and would welcome clarification. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:06, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Thanks Slrubenstein. I too would rather not start a huge debate here on the topic. I was expressing my opinion as someone with a relatively minor contribution to the literature.
I must say one thing though, it's simply not true that Gould's Mismeasure is well-respected. It's an utter piece of crap. It's been wholly ignored by people in field because it's irrelevant to anything the field is doing now. Citing Gould in the stub here might be popular, but it would be irrelevant to the truth of the issue.
I think the "environmental hypothesis" should be as defined by Rushton and Jenson (their 60 page review of race differences on IQ). To me, the pure 100% EH states that any race difference on IQ test scores is due to either the invalidity of IQ (including test bias) or to confounding environmental variables (race covaries with many things that might affect IQ-- SES, education, etc). In other words, no part of the IQ difference is caused by whatever the biology of race is.
I don't think that's vague at all. It makes very simple predictions (controlling for environmental variables should eliminate the difference). It's just the predictions have never been confirmed in decades of trying. Certainly, the burden's on the EH people to show us that any of those dozens of environmental variables actually statistically explain the gap.
I also never meant to imply the genetic hypothesis is false. I think there is no direct evidence for it, currently. As indirect evidence, the GH > 0 seems far more parsimonious than the 100% EH.
It's a huge (and likely unrealistic) burden to claim that x = 0 (genes) and y = 100% (environment). Given decades of failure at finding the factor x(s) in the environment that explain the gap, it's not unreasonable to assume that x > 0. But the evidence for x > 0 seems indirect to me (which doesn't mean it's wrong, and it is often the case in social science that evidence is indirect-- we can't randomly assign people to black or white, e.g.).
To me, hypothesis are either true or false (as they are usually single statements). They cannot be falsified, but by modus tolens can falsify the theory they're derived from. Seems like many on the internet disagree, but that's how I read Popper.
Your point 2: Hard to test directly until and unless we identify race genes (or clusters of genes) that when controlled for explain the gap. We have much data on biological and cognitive-psychological differences across race that can explain the gap (RT and IT in my paper completely mediates the black/white difference on the Wonderlic), but no consensus exists on the genetics of race and so no smoking gun study can yet be conducted on this hypothesis.
It's falsified by showing environmental variables are enough to explain the gap (though one could argue that IQ causes things like SES and education, but that's another can of worms).
3. I think GH predicts biological differences that should mediate the b/w gap. And, that's true (my study is an example). But, it's the fallacy of affirming the consequent to use these data to "prove" the GH. So, I think there is indirect support for GH (rather than no support, as you claim I implied earlier above).
Crap, I did just contribute to a debate here-- really not my intent. No obligation to reply nor to use anything I say in the final product. I am giving one opinion as a "semi-expert" in this area.
Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bpesta22 (talk • contribs) 03:18, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
- I am afraid you are misinformed about Gould. But let's just agree to disagree.
- I think it is an error - an error if we wish to make any progress on this page, and an error if we wish to improve the Race and Intelligence article, to let Rushton and Jensen define the Environmentalist hypothesis. We read Lamarck if we wish to know what Lamarck's theory of evolution was; we should descibe a hypothesis as those who have formulated the hypothesis have. I am NOT just responding to Bpesta here; I think it s a major weakness with these discussions that no one has been able to describe the environmentalist hypotheses and provide a citation for a scientist who has tested this hypothesis. If the only source we have is Rushton and Jensen, we have a straw man, not a hypothesis.
- Bpesta, please reread what you wrote, which may have been written in haste: "It makes very simple predictions (controlling for environmental variables should eliminate the difference)." Are you serious? What does this mean? Do you mean control all environmental conditions when the IQ test is actually taken i.e. air temperature, humidity, amount of light, etc are kept constant? Or do you mean control all environmental variables for the life of the organism? I a trying to take you in good faith but I find it hard to follow this. What I mean is I find it hard to think any graduate student would propose this as a hypothesis. I find it hard to believe for example that the NSF would fund dissertation research if this were the study. How can one possibly control ofor all environmental variables? If you cannot control for all environmental variables, you do not have one hypothesis. If you have to control for certain environmental variables at a time, you have separate hypotheses.
- "As indirect evidence, the GH > 0 seems far more parsimonious than the 100% EH." Can you provide just a couple of examples of the indirect evidence for GH>0? I understand what indirect evidence is - for example, when a planet does not follow the path predicted, we might consider this indirect evidence for another massive object. But what is the indirect evidence for GH>0?
- I honestly do not mean to be rude, but "It's a huge (and likely unrealistic) burden to claim that x = 0 (genes) and y = 100% (environment). Given decades of failure at finding the factor x(s) in the environment that explain the gap, it's not unreasonable to assume that x > 0." is just a non-sequitor. You may as well be arguing for the existence of ether or phlogisten. You are saying there is one cause for which we have no evidence. Then you are saying that we have other possible causes for which we have no evidence. Then you are saying that that makes the cause without evidence likely. I simply do not follow the reasoning. This is how creationists argue for God - since you (evolutionary biologists) cannot explain "x," therefore God is the explanation. But as we (who work within evolutionary science) know, just because research has not yet found an explanation for x does not mean that research will not find an explanation for x. Every philosopher of science who defends evoutionary theory points out that "God" functions for creationists as a residual category for anything they think science cannot explain. I don't see the difference here, I mean functionally.
- Yes, it is a debate but one that I still think gets a core issues in the mediation. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:19, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Slrubenstein said:
- I am afraid you are misinformed about Gould. But let's just agree to disagree.
No, I really am not, and that's the problem here. It goes back to my point on expertise. The experts in the area (those who have contributed peer review / new knowledge to the field) do not debate, cite nor worry about Gould. That's the worst thing that can happen to a "scientific" contribution. There's nothing in Gould remotely relevant to anything anyone in the field has been doing in recent history. The worst scientific contributions are not the ones smacked down by experts in the field. They are the ones that are completely ignored. That is Gould.
Beyond perhaps a book review of Nisbett's new book in Intelligence, watch how the field ignores it.
I'm not sure it's appropriate to share this here, but it makes the point nicely. One of my papers on IQ cited Gould in an attempt to provide a balanced lit review. An anonymous peer reviewer said: "Why cite gould. The man is an idiot. He's an advocate, not a scientist. Would the authors cite a paper on young earth creationism in a paper about geography?"
Quoting mismeasure in the stub, I think, weakens it greatly if one wants to be relevant and summarize state of the art. Not my call, though, and I suspect Gould will remain in whatever the final version is.
I do think EH is straightforward. It's the idea that self-reports of race are correlated with many important environmental variables that affect human well-being. It's also very simple to identify important environmental variables. Education. Nutrition. Access to Health care. Single parent versus mom and dad. White teacher/black teacher. Eating a good breakfast or not. Having internet access or not. The list is easy to produce and goes on and on.
No one study will ever control all these, but no one study needs to for at least one reason: The only way these factors (whether singly or in combo) can explain the gap is if they are CONFOUNDED with self reports of race.
If they are not confounded, they are simply a source of error variance and cannot explain the gap.
This is a critically important point. I spent days trying to get this point across to very smart people (I'll provide the link below) and they still didn't get it.
In my opinion, the biggest reason why you might not get consensus here is that I bet few wiki editors have 10 plus years experience and graduate study on the scientific method in general and this area specifically. It's very hard to no what's relevant and what's not without having the background. I say this not to demean, and it still might be the case that all my statements are false, but there is a reason why successfully contributing to the scientific literature typically requires a huge investment of time and education. There's a standard saying in social science (though the principal has exceptions): You wont discover anything important before age 40. There's a reason why that's "true".
Indirect evidence for GH: Biology and cognitive psychology mediate the gap. Reaction time and inspection time measures of IQ explain statistically paper and pencil IQ score differences across race. Many of the factors R&J offer as proof of GH (inbreeding depression; maturational differences) also in my opinion provide indirect evidence.
This link is people at scienceblogs desperate to debunk my ideas on race and IQ. They solicited a ph.d. student to review my article (she was very good!). If you peruse this, my apologies for any snark. This post occurred after I spent literally two weeks of my life in a jaw-droppingly unfair debate on the topic. By this point I was so frustrated that in many places I was not nice. It does however cover the idea of a confound versus source of error.
http://almostdiamonds.blogspot.com/2009/12/reaction-times-and-iq-tests.html
Bpesta22 (talk) 16:06, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
- Well, you wrote, "It makes very simple predictions (controlling for environmental variables should eliminate the difference)." I am glad to see you are stepping back from this (I mean in practice, not principle) - different experiments would control for different kinds of environment. This means that there is no one environmental hypothesis, and I still do not see how it can be so thoroughly disproven as you suggest. Moreover, I still find it weird to let Rushton or Jensen describe the hypothesis, rather than whichever scientist has done the study, or studies. This direction leads only to a muddle. As for Gould, well, surely you are aware that the view of the reviewer of your article depends on the reviewer, and this to a degree depends on the journal. There are plenty of journals where you are likely to get a reviewer saying the same thing about Rushton. The problem here is that this article addresses a topic where two disciplines or fields of expertise converge. I would agree with you that Gould is not an expert on psychometrics and I never meant to suggest that. Of course, Jensen and Rushton are not experts on race. The fact that some claim that they are is just a result of the fact that following Sputnik the US poured a lot of money into higher education (which lasted for several generations) resulting in the fact that there are a huge number of PhDs, more PhDs than can get jobs in their own field, or more than can even get jobs, and there are so many journals out there that it is very easy to get almost anything published. For those of you who are still naive about academia, see this - an article with five coauthors in a peer-reviewed journal (impact fxactor 3.398), they all get a pub on their c.v. for this. The article is not based on any original research and has nothing really to do with neurosurgery. In fact, the sources they use are outdated and their analysis does not really hold up against any expert research on the topic. My point is the same that you have made: not all peer-reviewed journals are the same, you need to know which ones represent expertise in the field. I would trust a neurosurgery journal for articles on neurosurgery but not on the rituals of Amazonian Indians (I am not making an analogy, just proving the point that there are so many journals out there, simply getting published does not mean what it used to. It is also easier for a smaller circle of researchers to support a journal, which increases the risk of friends reviewing one another's ms's). Now, Intelligence may be the premier journal for research in psychometrics. It is not for research on other topics. It, or other journals in psychology or psychometrics, are likely to find a ready pool of reviewers who are experts in psychometrics, and the editor can tell the difference between a fair review and a poor review. This is important because even smart reviewers can have axes to grind. The reviewer you encounered who was dismissive of Gould may have been right - it depends on how you were using Gould. Were you using him to make a point about psychometrics? I too would be dubious of that citation (just as I reject Rushton or Jenson as sources for the EH). Or were you using him as a source for a point on race? In that case, well, yes, he is still a highly regarded expert. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:20, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Fair enough, I don't think I disagree with anything you said. Thanks too for discussing rationally.
I think my role-- if any-- should be this: So as not to further delay the project, you guys should continue on as planned. I offer to peer-review the final product and make (non-binding) recommendations. You all can then agree whether to incorporate my comments or not.
This would require far less time than me becoming a Wiki expert and would at least give you some sense of what a psychologist thinks of your stub. It might be a good idea to solicit an expert in genetics to peer review the gene/race stuff-- this would likely get you an even more balanced product.
Bpesta22 (talk) 17:27, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I appreciate your offering us your thoughts. You have flagged the issue of confounding factors in research on this topic - this may be one area where you can ofer more advice about how this specific methodological matter be treated. I belive encyclopedia articles should be educational, so I do not think we should shy away from complex topics; the question is how to cover them in away that informs rather than distracts. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:36, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
What Just Happened: R/I expert harassed and chased out of this discussion
At a time when we need it most, God sent us a genuine expert in the field. Finally, we can make progress!
Dr. Pesta (with a"D") is an associate professor who has published many articles in the field, including one about R/I. He also won an award at Harvard. But unlike Rushton, his main interest is not race. In fact, we do not find it in this list:
Research Interests:
The Wonderlic Personnel Test.
The structure of general intelligence.
The cognitive science of general mental ability.
The role of g in work settings.
Individual and group differences in general mental ability.
Elementary cognitive tasks as IQ tests and predictors of work outcomes.
Sexual harassment
Employment discrimination Law
Decision making
HR selection / employment testing
Religiosity and performance
In short, Jay-zuss has taken mercy on us and sent us a guardian angel who is EXACTLY the person we need to complete this, and know we are doing it correctly. TechnoFaye Kane 09:32, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
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But look what happened: 1) He introduces himself
Using himself as an example, professor Pesta states that he studies R/I not to prove the Master Race, but with the goal of using science to understand, predict, and control something in the interest of increasing human well-being. It should be noted that his Harvard award was for advancing humanitarian principles.
6) Dr. Pesta politely corrects Wapondaponda, saying that he has met Jensen, Rushton, and Lynn; and they're not racists. He also gives evidence. He also gives a different opinion of Gould. "I think Gould's heart was in the right place, but not his science. He's a brilliant writer, but my opinion is his book here did a disservice to reality." 7) But Wapondaponda corrects Dr. Pesta again. "I do not know of any scientist who has disprove any of Gould's claims about race", and characterizes Gould as "an evolutionary scientist" with "expertise." 8) Rubenstein chimes in again, informing the professor that he found a dumb statistical error he made in an article published in a peer-reviewed academic journal. 9) Dr. Pesta, realizing that the people he came here to help turn out to be ignorant bozos who contradict him and argue about subjects he has a doctorate in, quietly changes the subject and returns to giving us the advice we so desperately need in this mediation:
10) Instead of thanking Dr. Pesta for his sage advice and taking time from his research to help us, Rubenstein spits in his face. "Intelligence may be the leading journal on intelligence research, but it is not at all the leading journal on research into race." He pointedly ignores the fact that R/I research is about psychometrics, not race. "Race research", if there is such a thing, has the single function of telling psychometricians the race of the test subjects. Nothing else. After dismissing the peer-reviewed academic journal in which most R/I research is published, Rubenstein tells this authority in the field that the most authoratative publication is Gould's popular-audience paperback: "it is a well-respected study on research on race." Note that Gould did no research on either intelligence or race. After repeatedly telling Dr Pesta he doesn't know what he's talking about in his own field, Rubenstein asks for his opinion: "Can you state for me what the "environmental hypothesis" is? There is much talk about it here but i have yet to be told what the hypothesis is." Integrity demands I acknowledge that Rubinstein did prove me wrong about one of my beliefs. I had previously believed he was only FEIGNING profound stupidity, as a stall tactic. As has been discussed for months here, the hypothesis--one of only two possible--is that the IQ gap is 100% cultural and environmental. Worried that he might have shown insufficient disrespect, Rubenstein then informs the professor that his reasoning is "a non-sequitor" and "silly on its face." As justification for his rude insolence, Rubenstein misquotes Dr. Pesta: "You have already agreed that the genetics hypothesis is not true"-- immediately after this expert just finished explaining why that hypothesis probably IS true. What he really said was that we don't have enough evidence yet to STRONGLY state that the gap is genetic [such as a "stupid gene"], there is sufficient indirect evidence, to logically accept it--including the fact that the only other possible hypothesis has been conclusively proven false. 10) Aryaman politely informs Rubenstein that he's an assh*le, and implies that he should shut up. 11) Rubenstein figures he'd better stop being rude and insulting, so he takes up confusion and bewilderment instead.
11) Professor Pesta now realizes that that everyone he's talked to at Wikipedia is an presumptuous, arrogant fool, so he rephrases the scientific community's opinion of Gould in a way more likely to be understood by people who can't understand things very well: "It's simply not true that Gould's Mismeasure is well-respected. It's an utter piece of crap. It's been wholly ignored by people in field because it's irrelevant to anything the field is doing now. Citing Gould in [the R/I article] might be popular, but it would be irrelevant to the truth." He also clarifies that "I never meant to imply the genetic hypothesis is false." He also says "We have much data on biological and cognitive-psychological differences across race that can explain the gap", and that the genetic explanation makes certain testable predictions which are in fact, found. He says that "direct evidence" means nothing less than finding the "smoking gun" -- specific gene(s) which correlate strongly with both race and intelligence. [Such genes would have evolved in the humans who left Africa 100,000 years ago.] And he ends by expressing regret that he's getting into an argument here [as opposed to merely answering questions]. 12) Rubenstein tells Dr. Pesta-again--that he is "misinformed" [about Gould's authority in Dr. Pesta's field of expertise]. He also says that our article can't define "the environmentalist hypothesis" as "the gap is solely environmental" because that's how rushton and jenson describe it. With the logic of a drunken 10 year-old, Rubinstein decides that we can only use the term "environmental hypothesis" to mean "the gap is solely environmental" after someone who believes that the gap is solely environmental has proved that it is. He then suggests that Dr. Pesta doesn't really believe what he wrote and that he only said that "environmental variables can be controlled for" because he was in a hurry and typed it accident. He proceeds to educate the expert in statistical analysis by teaching his student what "controlling environmental variables" means: controlling the the environment of the test subject by making sure the humidity in the room is the same for everyone and that Rushton didn't dim the lights when the blacks took the IQ test. He also gives an stricter definition: "controlling environmental variables" means controlling the test subjects' environment (e.g. humidity) for his entire life. For his next lesson in research design, Rubenstein teaches Dr. Pesta that if he cannot control for all of these environmental variables (like temperature, humidity, and lighting in the IQ test room, then he does not have one single "environmental hypothesis", but many -- one for temperature, one for humidity, etc. He also expresses doubt that Dr. Pesta says what he does in good faith, implying that maybe the professor is deliberately lying to us, and demands examples of of indirect evidence for the genetic hypothesis, even though that's what Dr. Pesta just did. Rubenstein then scolds the professor for his "non-sequitor" reasoning, saying that that his evidence for the genetic hypothesis could also support theories of Aether and phlogisten. After some garbled, incomprehensible rambling, he compares Dr. Pesta to a creationist. Sadly, Dr. Pesta takes this cynical abuse seriously and responds to it. Rubenstein replies as he has always done, saying that:
Dr. Pesta finally bails. He agrees that Rubenstein's doubletalk is corrrect, and says he won't participate in this mediation anymore (except to review the final product). The moderator, being a hereditarian, said nothing during the eight days it took for Rubenstein to chase the anti-hereditarian expert away. There are several possible explainations for Rubinstein: -- He is exceedingly stupid. That is obviously not the case. -- He is a teenager who thinks he can fool the grownups -- He is schizophrenic -- But by far, the most likely explanation is that he is a troll, with the specific purpose of gumming up the works with delay and meaningless objections. At this point, a REAL moderator would ban Rubinstein from this mediation for manifestly bad faith. However this won't be done, as the biased moderator doesn't like what the expert said any more than Rubenstein did. Finally, weeks ago I asked several sensible, very relevant questions of the moderator. I have repeated them periodically. He has yet to reply. Those they can't chase away, they stonewall. For that reason, after clicking "Save Page", I will begin researching actions I can take with Wikipedia administration to terminate this mediation cabal, lock this page, and resolve the issue formally through the arbitration committee. I will also pursue getting slrubenstien sanctioned for giving the only expert we have the bum's rush. In the meantime, I suppose will continue commenting here. Because the current group is biased and farcical, I consider it to be without standing and will begin editing the R/I article again myself. I hope the bad faith editors leave my changes in place, but if this starts an edit war, then at least it will draw the attention of a wiki manager. One more thing. Though Dr. Pesta didn't work out, Dr. R., who teaches Research Design, will be joining us shortly (after I get around to setting up his account specifically for the R/I article). However, unlike Dr. Pesta, he will be as difficult to intimidate as myself: he worked for Jensen and I work for him. TechnoFaye Kane 09:32, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
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Any way you can remove that picture of me. I hate it!
This one is preferred:
http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/93/l_60d7f438e63c06a3e145609308d50b19.jpg
(it's a myspace thing / inside joke -- that's what I won the humanist award for).
I was not intimidated here, nor offended. My only concern is time. My impression is that the discussion here seemed reasonable, especially compared with my recent experiences at "science" blogs.
Bpesta22 (talk) 16:06, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, those were the stubbornest people I've ever seen on the internet! Slippery, too. It just shows that people believe whatever their emotions tell them. And I have NO idea why, when (non-autistic) people are shown something they don't want to believe, they don't THANK the messenger for opening their eyes; they get ANGRY(!) at someone who didn't do anything but tell them the truth! My boss can't use his work for Jensen on his CV because the one time he mentioned it, the guy got mad and showed him him the door. Yet all he ever did was run data through SPSS and SAS. For that matter, that's really all Jensen did too.
But like you said, only the worthless theories get ignored. The reason otherwise-smart people get so upset by R/I research is that they know, deep down, that it's real. At an astrophysics site I hang around, when crackpots present their "new theory of space and time that proves einstein wrong", the guys don't get angry, they just say "bullshit" and dismiss it. Only the crackpot gets mad, because he was just told something he doesn't want to hear, and realizes it's true. TechnoFaye Kane 02:51, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Doc! You're still around! YAAAY!
- God,is that pic really you? I'm not posting it here, but I am saving it for my own, uhh, use later tonight when I imagine being held to high standards, honor-bound, and academic-disciplined. When you mentioned Modus Ponens and distributing the middle premise, I thought I was gonna melt. TechnoFaye Kane 23:19, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, the opportunity cost of wiki editing can be rather high, which is one reason why there can be content issues here. Most people who are expert enough to offer informed edits have limited time. If time is an issue for you, I would suggest avoiding a much of the petty bickering as possible, and working with the mediator to find the most efficient way to contribute. A.Prock (talk) 16:51, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- I say we consult him for a) questions of fact, and b) a (binding) decision every time we have a consensus deadlock No editor here could possibly object to that
without exposing himself as a bad-faith POV-pusher like rubenstien.TechnoFaye Kane 23:19, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- I say we consult him for a) questions of fact, and b) a (binding) decision every time we have a consensus deadlock No editor here could possibly object to that
Faye, I think that's a workable idea. if the others agree to it, I'm behind it. I'll also suggest that he send you more pictures: it seems to do good things for your... uhh... mood. 
--Ludwigs2 04:00, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Thanks TF! Most people are not that enthusiastic about my work:)
I'm not sure my say should be binding. Other than that, I would like to offer a "peer review" of whatever the final product is. 184.59.172.151 (talk) 04:25, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- well, you certainly qualify as an expert, and I do think that your opinion should carry weight if there's a deadlock. no worries, nothing on Wikipedia is ever entirely binding; sometimes that's dysfunctional, but a lot of times it works exactly right. just throw your expert opinion into the fray and let the conversation do with it what it will.
- with that in mind, would you mind looking at the outlines and discussion in this section? there's been a bit of confrontation over the structure the page should take, and you might have some useful input on that (both as an expert and as an academic writer). thanks!
--Ludwigs2 04:54, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Keeping track of our decisions
If you wish to challenge anything here, change it's status to "under discussion", add to the discussion section, and then change status when we have consensus.
List items have 3 possible statuses:
1) under discussion
2) agreed
3) rejected
Before using it to write the article, we need to run this entire list by Our Mentor for his blessing.
My personal view: We need to stop trying (and failing) to make our own interpretations of R/I. We need to shut up and defer to those who know vastly more about the subject than you or I or anyone else in the world. It's not our place to figure out questions like how much of the gap is environmental, whether the genetic explanation is fringe science, or whether SIRE is valid. Our job is to report what the mainstream experts believe.
We were thrashing in that quagmire for months before Dr, Pesta kindly informing us of what the experts agree on. His word should be respected by us and taken as true, but still must be sourced in credible literature if used in the article. Note that some statements below are not useful in the article, but are for our use in this mediation. Remember to sign your comments in the discussion area TechnoFaye Kane 07:30, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Questions for our resident expert consultant, Dr. Pesta
1) can you get a journal article for us to read if we specify which one so we can better understand what's going on? TechnoFaye Kane 07:30, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
2) What is what is "RT and IT"? TechnoFaye Kane 07:38, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Reaction time/Inspection time. Nice summary BTW, I think I agree. I especially agree about Gould being an idiot. mikemikev (talk) 09:17, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Why THANK you, Mike! [curtsies...]. I'm going to leave this question here in case anyone else wants to know. TechnoFaye Kane 10:02, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
3) What do you mean by "The IQ difference maps onto demonstrably different brain and mental processes in different races."? TechnoFaye Kane 08
4) What does the mainstream think of the theory that the IQ difference is due to everyone else believing that blacks are stupid "caste-like" minorities? TechnoFaye Kane 12:21, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
5) Had you been born sooner, would you have dated me signed the the statement made by 50 other intelligence
researchers which contradicts the APA statement? TechnoFaye Kane 12:21, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
6) We need a referee call at the bottom of [this] discussion TechnoFaye Kane 21:19, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
7) We need your sage advice here too, Master Yoda. TechnoFaye Kane 21:19, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
8) And here, if you would be so very kind! TechnoFaye Kane 21:22, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
9) I think it is particularly important that you answer this one.TechnoFaye Kane 22:00, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Our Official List of Decisions
I may be mistaken about consensus for some items. If so, change the status and tell why in the discussion section.
American blacks' average IQ score is 80, 70 in Africa
- STATUS: under discussion
- SOURCE: consensus based on numerous published studies
- DISCUSSION:
- The average is probably closer to 85 for African Americans. The Sub-Saharan African population is averaged at around 70, though college students peak out at around 80-85. --Aryaman (talk) 15:08, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- In the United States, a black is usually defined as someone who appears to have some Sub-Saharan African ancestry or who does not appear so but self-identifies as being black. It does not matter whether they are over 50% African. This definition of race may be U.S.-centric and not appropriate for widespread use in the article. Wasn't it decided that the definition of race used in the article will depend on the definition used in the particular research study being discussed? --98.191.81.47 (talk) 16:00, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- You mean, the definition of "African American" is "US-centric"? Goodness! --Aryaman (talk) 16:05, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- My main point was that if there was an official decision made regarding the defintion/s of race to be used in the article, someone should document that decision in this section. --98.191.81.47 (talk) 16:22, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- It's not our job to determine what the true value of a parameter like that is. It's our job to determine the best way to document the relevant published opinions. Imagine us as news reports, rather than researchers writing a review paper. Our audience is the interested public, not other researchers. The subject of our writing is the opinions of experts as documented in their published work. We have editorial oversight into what's relevant to our audience's understanding of the subject -- what level of detail they need and what opinions merit mentioning -- but not over what the facts themselves are. --DJ (talk) 19:58, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
"The environmental model" means 100% environmental
- STATUS: agreed
- SOURCE: Dr. Pesta; Published in relevant journals
- DISCUSSION:
- The environmental model is effectively 100% environmental, i.e. it admits that there may be some genetic influence, but holds that it is so small as to be of no significance (i.e. x<20%). --Aryaman (talk) 15:08, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- The environmental model means that environmental factors are the most important and relevant. According to one scholar, as long as environmental differences exist between populations, then the moral and ethical thing to do is to focus on improving the environment for those who are adversely affected. It is only if improving the environment does not result in any returns that other factors such as genetics could be considered. Wapondaponda (talk) 20:42, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
"The genetic model" means some, but not 100% genetic influence
- STATUS: under discussion
- SOURCE: Dr. Pesta; Published in relevant journals
- DISCUSSION: No one has ever asserted that it's 100% genetic TechnoFaye Kane 07:30, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- "hereditarian model" is preferred over "genetic model" --THANK YOU! I had no idea what to call these things. will use that term (HM) in the future!
- "The hereditarian model holds that >20% of the difference is genetic."
- Says who? TechnoFaye Kane 21:26, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Good question. I know I read that recently (i.e. that 20% is the ballpark minimum for "significance"), but I can't put my finger on where. Until I verify it, feel free to consider it either a routine calculation or a blantant, unabashed WP:SYNTH violation, as your personal preference dictates. ;) --Aryaman (talk) 22:09, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
The genetic model is not fringe science
- STATUS: agreed
- SOURCE: mutual consensus, Dr. Pesta
- DISCUSSION: Decades of research has shown that controlling for variables in the environment-- gobs of them-- does not remove the race difference in IQ. TechnoFaye Kane 07:30, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- I wouldn't agree here. Specifically within the field of psychometrics, the hereditarian hypothesis would not be considered fringe, but a minority or alternative hypothesis. However, in the broader scientific community and in society in general, there is little or no approval of the hereditarian hypothesis. It is rarely or never discussed in the media. I cannot think of a single nation or government that has any policies based on the hereditarian position. It would not be far off to state that the general public considers genetic models to be fringe. Indeed Rushton and Jensen 2005 state
- A prevailing worldview throughout history has been that economic, cultural, and other environmental forces are the preeminent causes of group and individual behavior. Wapondaponda (talk) 20:42, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Interesting point, but domain specificity of expertise should count for something here. For example "Many psychometricians and behavioral geneticists believe that high heritability of IQ test scores within racial groups coupled with environmental hypotheses failing to account for the differences between the mean scores for groups lends plausibility to explanations of mean differences in terms of genetic factors." [20]. And the WP:FRINGE criteria is an include/exclude criteria for the article, which is what I think TF was getting at here. --DJ (talk) 21:03, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- "The general public considers genetic models to be fringe."
So what?? Wikipedia is to educate them, not pander to their disproven prejudices. The majority of Americans believe the Earth appeared by magic. Do we need to include that as an "alternate hypothesis" in the geology article? - The same goes for "the broader scientific community". We shouldn't quote experts if they're experts in something else. TechnoFaye Kane 22:12, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- "The general public considers genetic models to be fringe."
"Race", as used in R/I research, is a biological construct
- STATUS: Agreed or not, this has been answered for us by a Higher Power:
- SOURCE: Dr. Bryan Pesta, published expert on Race and Intelligence, who said that in academic R/I research, the experts agree that: "Race is indeed a biological construct. It causes changes in skin color across humans and some other stereotypical physical differences across race. I'm OK with defining race, for now, as skin color and all (biologically) that correlates with it."
- He also said that SIRE is a perfectly legitimate proxy for biological race (see list item about that statement). TechnoFaye Kane 05:56, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- DISCUSSION:
- It doesn't matter if things other than genetics can make one stupid. Biological race has been stated to exist by everyone publishing serious R/I research. Our article must say that. In an R/I article, we must accept the consensus of the R/I researchers. And they have spoken to us from on high, through Bryan. If you disagree with it, send a letter of complaint to Dr. Rushton.
- Yet despite this, some trolls still deliberately stall progress here by continuing to make spurious, irrelevant, disingenuous, and often nonsensical objections: TechnoFaye Kane 11:01, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- "Race" used outside the context of academic discussion typically has very little to do with biology. Within the academic community, "race" can be used to refer to "fuzzy" biological realities. --Aryaman (talk) 15:08, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Race is complicated and opinions on race are varied. Minimize definitional conflicts in this article and refer readers to other relevant articles for discussion. --DJ (talk) 20:00, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- There is no agreed definition of race. Indeed there is no standard criteria used to classify races of non-human organisms. Race is thus an arbitrary construct that may or may not exist depending on the criteria used to define a race. Wapondaponda (talk) 12:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- ...Thus declared the non-expert with no training in the field! TechnoFaye Kane 22:17, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
I have a problem with you listing this as "under discussion", with the assumption that it needs to be discussed more than it has been already. We've already resolved the question of social vs. biological race as much as is necessary for the purpose of revising the article --Captain Occam (talk) 03:05, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- [intrpt] I agree! I marked it as "under discussion" because I'm bending over backwards to get consensus. I'll change it back, as well as some other statuses that people have stopped leaving comments on. If they later challenge he inclusion of these statements in the article, I'll tell them to change the status back to "under discussion". But we HAVE to end this back-and forth and establish what we have consensus about so we can use those statements in the article. TechnoFaye Kane 05:19, 23 March 2010 (UTC) [resume]
Can I change the summary here to “race is both social and biological”? That’s what we agreed in the earlier discussion about this, so if we’re trying to summarize the agreements we’ve reached (which is the whole point of this section), then just saying “race is biological” leaves out part of it. --Captain Occam (talk) 06:06, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
and it took us quite a while, so I'd rather not have to repeat the discussion about this a second time. What we resolved is that race (as used in studies of race and intelligence) is socially defined, but that it also correlates strongly with biogeographical ancestry, and for that reason biological differences that exist between biogeographical groups also exist between socially-defined races. Or to put it more simply, race is a socially-defined entity that also has a biological component. If you'd rather think of it as a biological entity whose divisions are influenced by social factors, that probably amounts to close to the same thing; the important thing we've resolved is just that it's both biological and social.
Can you change your summary to reflect this? Even if you don't agree with it, the purpose of what you're doing here is to summarize the points that have been resolved during the mediation, and this is the decision we reached. --Captain Occam (talk) 03:05, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- Well, first of all, it's not MY summary. You can change it yourself, but please do not until we have consensus as to what it should be. I don't want to go changing item headers back and forth since people use them to find the discussion. When the status is "under discussion", the section header is only used to identify the question under discussion and it carries no weight (gravitas). The wording has no more "power" than any arbitrary link target label.
- As to the discussion itself, see below, after wapanamonda and rubenstein's bullshit. TechnoFaye Kane 04:27, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Presumably, when the ancestors of modern Europeans for example migrated from Africa, they appeared similar to other Africans. However, over time, they changed in appearance. During the time they were changing in appearance, there were likely other changes occurring that were not so apparent. During this time the gene flow between Europe and Africa was restricted. Europeans can be said to have become a race. There perhaps was a time long ago when Europeans did not know that their ancestors had migrated from Africa and changed over time. I'm not sure why some people are now trying to deny that the Europeans became a biological race. Should we instead refer to them as the white-skinned European Africans? Whites in the United States could be called European African Americans. --98.191.81.47 (talk) 13:16, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- 98.191.81.47, PLEASE login with a name and sign your comment with four tilde characters (~) TechnoFaye Kane 05:19, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- What exactly is "biological" about race. It would be useful to know what biological traits we are referring to when we state that "race is biological". No two individuals are biologically alike, if two individuals differ in height, then they are biologically different WRT to height. If we compare two humans from different races and we compare a random human and a grasshopper obviously the differences between the two humans will appear tiny, if not insignificant. If we compared someone with acromegaly and someone with dwarfism, then the anatomical differences between the two would be huge. We need a standard which we can define what is biologically similar or what is biologically different. So far we generally agree that races differ in external appearance inasmuch as one can tell what socially constructed race most people belong to by looking at them. But no one has come up with a list of other biological traits that are race-specific. Instead of discussing this in abstract and vague terms we need to list specific biological traits that clearly distinguish individuals from different races. Wapondaponda (talk) 12:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- I do not know of any such list, because genotype varies clinally and phenotype (which seldome corresponds directly to genotype) often varies geographically. I do not know where we agreed that race is both biological and sociological - for the purposes of this article, which is limited to human beings, it is sociological (for biologists race = subspecies but there is only one living subspecies of humans, so race does not apply). In all the intelligence data race is SIRE and that is the crucial thing. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:13, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
"I do not know where we agreed that race is both biological and sociological"
Ludwig has archived the discussion about this now, so you’ll have to ask him where it can be found—I’m not able to find it myself anymore. However, I can quote the resolution we reached in it:
- All current research on race in relation to IQ scores is based in SIRE information.
- Some research shows that race (defined by SIRE) correlates highly with certain genetic markers (markers which are obviously inherited, but which are chosen to specifically to reflect biogeographical ancestry.)
- Research suggests that 40-70% of the variation in IQ scores within the same population owes to genetic factiors. A few specific genes have been identified as likely candidates, but none has been conclusively shown to do so.
- There is no definitive research (as yet) that speaks to whether the genes that affect intelligence in individuals are part of the cluster of genes mentioned above.
I’ve changed “race” to “biogeographical ancestry” in the second point, because that’s more specifically what this study was saying, so presumably changing this won’t be controversial. Other than that, this does not have any modifications from the summary we agreed on. Slrubenstein, you were fine with this summary apart from a few changes which you wanted made to it, and which I’ve incorporated into it. And Muntuwandi, I recall you having nothing to say about this summary at all, other than wanting to resolve the question of whether and how much the article would discuss studies linking IQ to specific genes.
If either of you have any problems with this summary that go beyond the suggestions Slrubenstein requested and which have now been incorporated, at this point I think it’s too late to want to re-discuss it. Resolving this was one of the most time-consuming aspects of the mediation process, and both of you had ample time to bring up any further objections to this summary if you had any. If you did, the time to bring them up was during the several weeks while this was being discussed, not now that it’s been resolved.
The purpose of the current discussion is not to re-discuss these points; it’s to summarize what we’ve resolved already. I think that saying “race is both social and biological” is an accurate way of summarizing the resolved points that I quoted above, but if any of you think there’s a better way to summarize them, I’m open to suggestions. --Captain Occam (talk) 20:36, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- I am of the opinion that if someone objects, they should be heard. My goal is to get to a list of statements that we all agree on. Should we tell Dr. Pesta to shut up just because he walked in late?
- If anyone has been silenced "by force", so to speak, that person will not feel that this arbitration was fair, but that it was rigged and bullied. If that happens, they WILL edit the final article themselves.
- That's right, I'm standing up for the right of these two insincere, bad-faith, deliberately-dragging-this-out trolls to continue their dilatory spew. I don't like that. It makes me angry. But sometimes Integrity tells you you have to do the right thing even when you could get away with being a bully, sneaky, or shitty.
- Anyway, I can't blame them. I feel very strongly that "social race" is JUST the kind of amateur B.S. that Wikipedia's detractors point to as proof that wikipedia is biased and that children should not use it. If my voice is shouted down and my statements ignored, I'll sure as HELL edit the article after it's completed. More in a few mins... TechnoFaye Kane 04:27, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- The point here is that Slrubenstein and Muntuwandi have already agreed with this statement. (Well, Slrunbenstein did; Muntuwandi appeared to have no opinion about most of it even when we were asking for other editors’ opinions.) If we can’t assume that editors will continue to agree with things that they’ve previously stated they agree with, then there’s no point having mediation for this article at all, because in that case there would be no reason to assume that after the mediation is resolved editors who agreed with its outcome won’t suddenly change their minds about this. And I certainly thought that this was the purpose of this discussion: to keep track of the decisions for which we already have consensus, rather than to start new discussions in order to obtain a consensus about topics where we didn’t have one already.
- Anyway, I’ll change the title of this section to reflect the existing consensus about this. Considering how long it took to resolve this topic the previous time we discussed it, I would definitely prefer that users not demand that we re-discuss this in order to resolve it a second time. --Captain Occam (talk) 05:27, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- "The point here is that Slrubenstein and Muntuwandi have already agreed with this statement."
- And my point is that *I* never agreed with the statement. I do remember asking several questions which were ignored, before you decided to declare "consensus". In fact I strongly DISagree with the statement. Even though we're arguing about the NAME of something and not any provable facts, it would be used illegitimately in an attempt to discredit SIRE as a proxy for biological race. But that's WRONG.
- First of all it is only biological race which is relevant to Race/intelligence. What people wear, how they talk, what they talk about, and all other cultural baggage are just someone's opinion. To say otherwise is like saying Vanilla Ice is a negro because he pretends to be one on stage. Hey, that's okay with me; I would too for his kind of money. But that doesn't MATTER in academic discussion.
- Nor does my opinion matter. Your opinion doesn't count either, Occam. In Wikipedia articles about science, ONLY the opinion of experts in the field counts, and we are lucky to have one of the top experts in the subject of race/intelligence who published an article about it in the most prestigious journal on the subject. And on March 7, Dr. Pesta, our ad visor and undisputed expert in the topic of this article wrote to us and said:
- "self-reports of race have scientific "baggage" but are indeed a good proxy for the biology of race"
- Okay? The Great Zardoz has spoken.
- Biological race = SIRE = IQ gap. Period.
- Oh, and Mutwandi keeps telling us he can't figure out what "race" means, so I will educate him. According to Dr. Bryan Pesta, our resident expert who has published specifically about race and intelligence, and speaks not only for himself, but for the other top researchers in the topic of this article:
- Race is indeed a biological construct. It causes changes in skin color across humans and some other "stereotypical" physical differences across race. I'm OK with defining race, for now, as skin color and all (biologically) that correlates with it.
- Mutabwe and rubenstein are both equally confused because race is not exactly defined. But let us consult The Word:
- We can study things (especially the effects of things) without having them 100% precisely defined. Many constructs here are ill-defined (motivation; leadership; intelligence, etc). Anything we measure, though, is "good" to the extent it is both reliable and valid. SIRE seems to have high reliability. My guess is the reliability of race as a measure would be well above the conventional threshold-- .70-- for having utility. -- B. Pesta, 5:06 on March 2010.
- If Mutwabe needs this translated into simpler language, he has but to ask me. I am a fount of knowledge, a grotesquely intelligent cerebral mutant from which the ignorant of ALL nations may drink of my understanding.
- But if he wants to argue about the statement itself, he needs to email his peculiar "theories" to Dr. Pesta at Bpesta22@cs.com. Why can't he argue his opinion here? Because here, Mutawbe's opinion ain't 'fo SHIT. Neither is mine or Occam's or rubenstein's. When writing for wikipedia, the ONLY opinion is the EXPERTS'! We are merely their unworthy scribes.
- See, even if you force all the newspapers to announce that the word "race" now includes opinions, culture, behaviour, speech, pretty flowers in your hair, and a partridge in a pear tree; IT DOESN'T MATTER. The ONLY thing the hereditarian model asserts is: Biological race = SIRE = IQ gap.
- Could there be other factors? Sure, and there ARE, but they only make the gap wider. If a kid grows up malnourished working in a lead mine, he's going to test lower in IQ.
- But that doesn't matter when the question is: "is there a genetic component to the R/I gap?" The top two R/I researchers in the world said in the APA journal that the answer is "YES" and our own expert said [paraphrasing] "it sure looks like it; there certainly isn't any OTHER explanation!"
- Because he said that, the argument has to end! For the purpose of writing a Wikipedia article, the opinions of me or you or the sociologists are now completely irrelevant.--TechnoFaye Kane 10:43, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
No, the argument has not come to an end. Bryan Pesta is not an expert on race. His expertise on psychometrics is not in question. But he is not an expert on race. The science that has expertise on race is anthropology, so we should go by the statements of the AAA and the AAPA. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:21, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- Tell him yourself that his opinion doesn't count in this article, and that you're going to include someone else's opinion you like better. You should get that opportunity tomorrow (thursday). Bryan said that he had a lot of work to do today, but that he'll reeeeally try to give us more guidance tomorrow.
- It is not up to US to ignore the unanimous consensus of researchers in the subject of a wikipedia article. It's not for us to say "well we like the opinion of the anthropologists, and that invalidates decades of research that we barely understand. And if the anthropologists change their mind, we'll quote the sociologists instead."
- We can NOT just decide that these PhD researchers don't know what they're talking about [that race is genetic and SIRE is ok], and it's embarrassing to be part of a group that would have such presumptuousness, audacity, and disrespect for scientists' work in their own academic journals. TechnoFaye Kane 05:56, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- As you've said ad nauseam. However, despite being asked again and again, you've failed to even touch upon exactly how we will "go by" the AAA and AAPA statements when writing the Race and Intelligence article. mikemikev (talk) 15:17, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
From the AAA: "Race and ethnicity both represent social or cultural constructs for categorizing people based on perceived differences in biology (physical appearance) and behavior." The AAA discourages the use of the word "race" because of its association with things like the Holocaust, Apartheid, etc., and wants to replace it with "ethnic origin" or "geographic ancestry" or some other supposedly innocuous phrase. Relying heavily upon the AAA for this article would be a mistake IMO, primarily because their reasoning for rejecting "race" is directly contradicted by the very subject under discussion. The AAA writes "Differentiating species into biologically defined "races" has proven meaningless and unscientific as a way of explaining variation". In other words, the AAA is telling us that the scientific community has determined that "race" is useless concept when discussing human variation, as the distinctions its use entails are of no value to science. Well, this is obviously refuted simply by mentioning the academic controversy surrounding race and IQ. The truth is, the tiny governing body of the AAA wants very much for all scientists to reject the term "race", but this has not happened, and this controversy demonstrates that fact. Any authority the AAA could have on this subject is drawn directly from those experts who have studied the particular phenomena in question, so, given the number of qualified experts who argue for the utility of "race" in discussions of human variation, their statement on race and IQ amounts to little more than wishful thinking on their part. --Aryaman (talk) 15:48, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- TechnoFaye, I don’t disagree with what Dr. Pesta is saying about this. The important word here is “proxy”. Self-reported race is indeed a good proxy for the biological aspect of race, but the two are not exactly the same thing.
- I think this post from the genetics blog Gene Expression does a good job explaining what the current scientific consensus regarding race is. (I know we can’t cite this in the article because blogs aren’t reliable sources; I’m linking to it just to help explain to TechnoFaye how race is both social and biological.) The part of the post that discusses this is the last paragraph:
- A note on race being a societal construct. To some extent, of course it is--some people that would be called "black" in the US might not be called "black" in France, for example (and not because of the language difference, for all you smartasses. The word "black" in French specifically refers to racial classification). I have enough faith in human intelligence to think that the first person who called race a societal construct did not mean that it had no biological component as well--note that the Wikipedia entry on adolesence refers to it as a "cultural and social phenomenon" but also "the transitional stage of human development in which a juvenile matures into an adult". People seem to somehow be able to keep the cultural and biological aspects of adolescence in their heads at the same time, as I imagine the first sociologists to study race were able to do (I may, of course, be wrong), yet somehow the fact that biological differences are interpreted through a cultural lens has somehow morphed into the idea that the biological differences don't exist to begin with (see, e.g. the ASA statement on race). Weird.
- You seem to be making the opposite mistake from the one that the ASA is making: acknowledging the biology of race, but refusing to accept that two people with the exact same biogeographical ancestry could self-identify as two different races because they live in societies where those races have differing definitions. Something you should keep in mind is that Gene Expression tends to be fairly pro-hereditarian when they write about topics like these, so if your opinion about the biological reality of racial differences is so strong that you won’t even accept what Gene Expression has to say about this, you’re kind of out on a limb.
- I agree, because words mean whatever you want them to mean. But the peak, unchallengable experts in the field say that their research is about the correlation between IQ score and something biological. It has been published as such in Intelligence. Over and over. They (and their peer-reviewers) agree that their research design is valid. We must assume that if the anthropologists' "racism is bad" PR statement is relevant, that they called the anthropologists on the phone, or mixed chemicals in glass tubes that bubbled like in Frankenstein movies, or WHATEVER in their expert opinion, needs to be done to insure that their research design is valid.
- We here at wikipedia can NOT just ad-hoc declare them incorrect, no matter what we think the anthropologists and sociologists say. Furthermore, I assert that there is no contradiction between the anthropologists' PR release and the Psychometricians'. No anthropologist has written to Intelligence declaring that every issue since 1995 has been wrong because SIRE race isn't statistically valid. In fact, if you look at their VERY carefully-worded statement, you'll see that it is a political/social statement, not a scientific one. It's about the meaning of a word. Fine. Steal the four-character string "RACE". But that doesn't make the statistics published in Intelligence go away.
- Words mean what the speaker intends them to mean. Bryan has stated that by "Race", the psychometricians mean "skin color and everything that correlates strongly with it". It doesn't MATTER what the anthropologists decide to write in The Official Dictionary of Anthropology. If the entry for race doesn't say "skin color and everything that correlates strongly with it", then that dictionary's definition of the word is not what the psychometricians are correlating with IQ scores.
- They have unambiguously stated what they mean when they use the word "race". And whether you or I like it or not, one "skin color and everything that correlates strongly with it" gets IQ scores a full standard deviation beneath the other two "skin colors and everything that correlates strongly with them". THAT is what this article is about. it is NOT about the politically-correct definition of words. You can call "skin color and everything that correlates strongly with it" whatever you like. Most people call it "race", but that is completely irrelevant to the test scores and the statistics.
- You say "two people with the exact same ancestry could self-identify as two different races because they live in societies where those races have differing definitions." If that is a real issue, then if it occurred to us know-nothing retards (and I place myself first in that lineup), then we MUST assume that it has occurred to the PhDs who do statistical analysis for a living and teach it to graduate students. They probably wrote several journal articles analyzing that very point. If they made an obvious mistake that we caught, we must also assume it would have been caught by their peer-reviewers. And if we reeeally have a problem with something, we can ask Brian to explain it. But his explanation of it is the definition of it. But what we CANNOT do is SECOND-GUESS THE STATISTICAL VALIDITY OF PEER-REVIEWED ACADEMIC RESEARCH IN WIKIPEDIA just because we don't like the conclusions. TechnoFaye Kane 05:56, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- That said, I’m not going to revert the title of this section back to what I changed it to previously, because the current title (“Biological race exists”) isn’t something that I really disagree with. I think that biological race does exist, but that sociological race does also. Although I’d prefer that the title of this section mention the second point also, it’s not a huge problem for me if it doesn’t, as long as you don’t try to stop us from acknowledging the social aspect of race in the article when we begin editing it. --Captain Occam (talk) 19:36, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- And I changed it back, but for a good reason. The design of this list mandates that each item MUST be a statement which we either agree on or don't agree on. Then we can proceed writing the article per those statements with which there is consensus. "Race: Biological or Social" is NOT such a statement, and will lead to more rudderless runaround.
- Note that I DID add a NEW list item (after this one) for people who want to agree or disagree about this other question involving "social race". TechnoFaye Kane 05:56, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- Changed it. My specific request earlier, was if race is biological, what is biological about race. Could we have examples of traits. If we just state that race is biological, it is too vague and there appears to be some innuendo associated outdated racial typologies. What exactly do we mean when we state that race is biological.
I definitely agree that race has biological correlates, but a correlate is another word for an imperfect relationship or association. SIRE will correlate strongly with skin color. But the traditional view has been that pigmentation traits are "trivial" because in the animal kingdom, pigmentation can vary within a population. A dog or cat can have a litter of pups with individuals that have different coat colors. SIRE does correlate with the risk of acquiring diseases, for example people of African descent have a higher risk of getting prostate cancer, but this doesn't mean that people of European or Asian descent don't get prostate cancer.
- As for genetics, SIRE will correlate with multilocus allele clusters. But these alleles are generally chosen because they are informative of biogeographical ancestry or SIRE. At the time many of these clustering studies were performed, little was known about the actual role or function of the genetic variants used for clustering. We know that Junk DNA or non-coding DNA, that is DNA that has no known function, tends to be informative of ancestry. As non-coding DNA is not under selection, it accumulates mutations much faster than coding DNA. Recent mutations tend to be informative of recent ancestry because not enough time has passed for them to have spread across vast areas. In short, while genetic clusters may correlate with race, little is known about the biological functions of the genetic markers used to form clusters, and many of these genetic markers may have no biological effect at all. Of course these mysteries will not persist indefinitely, we are likely to understand more as more is published about the human genome.
With regards to the statements that Ludwigs sumarized, this would be my preference
- All current research on race in relation to IQ scores is based in SIRE information.
- Some research shows that race (defined by SIRE) correlates highly with certain genetic markers (markers which are obviously inherited, but which are chosen because they are highly informative of biogeographical ancestry, the biological functions of the markers used are not known or poorly understood.)
- Research suggests that the heritability of IQ within the same population ranges 40-70%.
- A few specific genes have been suggested as having an association with intelligence, but none has been conclusively shown to do so.
- There is no definitive research (as yet) that speaks to whether the genes that affect intelligence in individuals are part of the cluster of genes mentioned above.- (This statement is true, but those who search for genes that affect intelligence have not yet considered race a variable)}}
Wapondaponda (talk) 02:23, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- Muntuwandi, what statement do you recommend we use to summarize the consensus about this topic? “Race: Biological or Social” is not a statement of consensus, it’s a question. And you don’t seem to be satisfied with either “Biological race exists” or “Race is social and biological”. Since you’re the one who’s unhappy with all of the options we’ve considered for this statement, can you please suggest one that you would be satisfied with, and which is a statement rather than a question? --Captain Occam (talk) 03:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- I won't provide a statement right away, but i'll provide sources that I believe represent the mainstream consensus on race, biology and genetics
- The AAPA report
- Cavalli-Sforza (2007). "GENETIC VARIATION BETWEEN AND WITHIN POPULATIONS, AND THE RACE PROBLEM". Human Evolution and Its Relevance for Genetic Epidemiology.
{{cite book}}: External link in|chapterurl=|chapterurl=ignored (|chapter-url=suggested) (help) - Tishkoff; et al. (2004). "Implications of biogeography of human populations for 'race' and medicine" (PDF).
{{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires|journal=(help); Explicit use of et al. in:|last=(help) - Jorde; et al. (2004). "Genetic variation, classification and 'race'" (PDF).
{{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires|journal=(help); Explicit use of et al. in:|last=(help)
- I won't provide a statement right away, but i'll provide sources that I believe represent the mainstream consensus on race, biology and genetics
Wapondaponda (talk) 05:34, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
"Race", as commonly used, includes non-biological components
STATUS: agreed SOURCE: consensus DISCUSSION: Okay guys, every item in this list has to be a statement we either agree or disagree on. This is the list item for "social race", a concept some of you seem keen to inject into this issue.
But remember that we are arguing about THE MEANING OF A WORD. But there IS no such thing. Words do NOT have any inherent meaning. They mean whatever the speaker intends them to mean. Either you agree with this list-item's statement or you don't. The same with the previous statement about genetic race. TechnoFaye Kane 05:56, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
The genetic model has not been directly proven
- STATUS: under discussion
- SOURCE: agreed
- DISCUSSION: the specific amino acid sequences involved, if any, are still to be determined TechnoFaye Kane 07:30, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
The genetic model has been indirectly proven
- STATUS: under discussion
- SOURCE: Dr. Pesta, relevant journals
- DISCUSSION: The GM predicts certain things which are demonstrated to exist. (per Dr. P). The IQ difference maps onto demonstrably different brain and mental processes in different races. (I'd like clarification from Bryan) TechnoFaye Kane 07:30, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think there's a consensus about this one. If I understand what Dr. Pesta has been saying about this correctly, his opinion is that the cause of the IQ difference must be something that can affect the neurological variables that differ between races and line up with the IQ difference, such as neural velocity, brain size and brain glucose efficiency. That rules out most social factors such as discrimination and quality of education, but it doesn't rule out environmental factors that can have neurological effects, such as nutrition and prenatal conditions. --Captain Occam (talk) 15:06, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- No, what rules out environmental factors that can have neurological effects, such as nutrition and prenatal conditions is that when they controlled for those variables, the gap was still there. For example, nutrition. In one study, black kids raised middle class still show the average deficit, and S.E. Asians who have been severely malnourished still show the surfeit. According to Bryan, researchers ran out of factors to control for years ago. He said that if someone wanted to continue testing the EM, that he can't imagine what else they could test for. The EH has been pronounced dead by everyone in the field who's opinion I've read. TechnoFaye Kane 04:49, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- Dr. Pesta also agreed that nobody has yet identified a specific environmental factor that could account for the neurological and IQ differences between races, but that this doesn't necessarily mean one doesn't exist. --Captain Occam (talk) 15:06, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- No, it means it's extremely unlikely that one exists, because it would have to be something powerful enough to make a whole race of people stupid, yet hidden and secret enough that no one ever thought of it, and it eluded detection in hundreds of studies. The EM is dead because by FAR, the best explanation is that there is a genetic component to this. TechnoFaye Kane 04:49, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, and Occam: your comic rulez! I had a similar thing happen to me, but in public school. I'll have to tell it to you sometime! And on christian forums, you ARE notto, right? It was the birds that gave you away! :-) TechnoFaye Kane 04:49, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- I’m aware that every specific environmental factor that’s been suggested as a cause of the IQ difference has been controlled for and ruled out. The problem is that it’s impossible to know that every biological environmental factor that can affect IQ has been identified, which also makes it impossible to disprove the possibility that the difference in IQ as well as these neurological variables is caused by some environmental factor that nobody’s discovered yet. I know that its reliance on the existence of an unspecified and undiscovered entity as an explanation for something makes the 100% environmental model unfalsifiable, but this is the argument that’s presented in favor of it the source literature. We’ve never reached a consensus for the article to discount this viewpoint, and even if we were able to reach one for it, NPOV policy would still require us to include it if it’s being published in reliable sources.
- If you can convince Aprock, Slrubenstein and Muntuwandi that the prevailing viewpoint in the source literature about this topic is that the 100% environmental model is invalid, then I suppose I won’t have a problem with the article describing it as such. But I don’t think this is actually the case in the source literature, so I doubt there will ever be a consensus here for that.
- As for CF, my username there is Aggie. I haven’t posted there in a while, though, since in my opinion the forum has gone downhill ever since Erwin Loh left as the webmaster in fall of 2007. If you look at some of my old posts from 2006 and early 2007, though, you’ll see that I’ve posted some of my comics there also. --Captain Occam (talk) 10:50, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps in English class "literature"! But who in a recent, relevant peer-reviewed journal denies that the hereditary model (HM) has been indirectly proven?? TechnoFaye Kane 22:22, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Because TechnoFaye continues to call "Black people stupid", I have started a thread at WQA. Wapondaponda (talk) 15:30, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps in English class "literature"! But who in a recent, relevant peer-reviewed journal denies that the hereditary model (HM) has been indirectly proven?? TechnoFaye Kane 22:22, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
The environmental model has been disproven to the satisfaction of experts in the field
- STATUS: under discussion
- SOURCE: Dr. Pesta, relevant journals
- DISCUSSION: No environmental manipulation, nor no study that controls (via regression or multiple regression) environmental factors explains the gap. TechnoFaye Kane 07:30, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Controlling for environmental factors can diminish the gap significantly (e.g. x>20%), but cannot eliminate all significant difference (i.e. x<80%). --Aryaman (talk) 15:08, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- This is disputed in the literature. There are some scholars who say that the weight of the evidence disfavors an entirely environmental explanation and others who say that an entirely environmental explanation is best. Attribute opinions to those published sources that express them. --DJ (talk) 20:05, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Since the genes responsible for IQ differences have not been identified, we cannot rule out anything. Wapondaponda (talk) 20:42, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- I would humbly suggest that the best way to find out if the environmental model (EM) has been disproved to the satisfaction of experts in the field is to ask an expert in the field.
Bryyyy-annn... YOO-HOO, where are you?....
- I would humbly suggest that the best way to find out if the environmental model (EM) has been disproved to the satisfaction of experts in the field is to ask an expert in the field.
Rushton and Jensen are serious, respected researchers and experts, and are not to be dismissed
- STATUS: under discussion
- SOURCE: Dr. Pesta
- DISCUSSION:
- Their opinions cannot be excluded from the article. --DJ (talk) 20:02, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- The broader scientific community has to a certain extent already dismissed Rushton and Jensen. There are only a minority of scholars who have stuck their necks out in open support for the racial theories of Rushton and Jensen. However, Jensen's work outside of race is widely cited and respected within the psychometric community. Wapondaponda (talk) 20:42, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- I think our resident expert should explain it to you. TechnoFaye Kane 21:57, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- I think DJ is on the right track. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:16, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
SIRE is a good proxy for biological race
- STATUS: agreed
- SOURCE: Dr. Pesta
- DISCUSSION:
- That's one published opinion about the question. Does it need to be discussed in this article? --DJ (talk) 20:03, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- I'd say "discussed" is stretching it. If it needs to be mentioned, then as an example of the supporting and/or corroborating evidence supplied by hereditarians, e.g. to counter the claim that the hereditarian model is flawed because 'SIRE has nothing to do with biology'. It's peripheral as long as things remain balanced, IMO. --Aryaman (talk) 20:11, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with that. The current article text mentions this briefly, but perhaps not in a way that makes the connection to "SIRE" and "biological proxy". Nisbett has a short and pithy response to this in his book:
- Some laypeople I know -- and some scientists as well -- believe that it is a priori impossible for a genetic difference in intelligence to exist between the races. But such a conviction is entirely unfounded. There are a hundred ways that a genetic difference in intelligence could have arisen -- either in favor of whites or in favor of blacks. The question is an empirical one, not answerable by a priori convictions about the essential equality of groups (Nisbett, 2009, p. 94).
- Obviously others have made counter arguments (as he notes). --DJ (talk) 20:20, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- The "is SIRE valid as a race designatior" issue doesn't have to be mentioned at all unless someone inappropriately inserts it into the article. The experts have spoken, and they say that SIRE is a perfectly good proxy for race. TechnoFaye Kane 22:35, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Other experts have spoken and have said it is not. This is at best a contentious topic. Nisbett is not staying that SIRE is a proxy for race. But if we can juist avoid this, that is fine with me. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:19, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- The "is SIRE valid as a race designatior" issue doesn't have to be mentioned at all unless someone inappropriately inserts it into the article. The experts have spoken, and they say that SIRE is a perfectly good proxy for race. TechnoFaye Kane 22:35, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with that. The current article text mentions this briefly, but perhaps not in a way that makes the connection to "SIRE" and "biological proxy". Nisbett has a short and pithy response to this in his book:
Published statements by intelligence researchers trump statements by scientists who are experts in something else
- STATUS: under discussion
- SOURCE: Dr. Pesta
- DISCUSSION: When someone not in the field of intelligence research contradicts what the experts agree on, it can't be presented in Wikipedia as a legitimate "opposing opinion". it must be called "fringe science". TechnoFaye Kane 07:30, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- A well-respected sociologist or anthropologist is not necessarily engaging in "fringe" science when he comments upon the racial aspect of psychometric research as long as he doesn't expect his opinion to be taken as anything other than a comment from someone in the wider academic community with no bearing upon the actual results of psychometric studies. --Aryaman (talk) 15:08, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Can't make blanked statements like this. Attribution of opinions is how we work with conflicting published opinions. --DJ (talk) 19:57, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Intelligence is a broad phenomenon. Thus even the opinions of non-psychologists are be important. In fact psychometricians are experts in testing intelligence. But they may not have a clue about what intelligence is. Neuroscientists are probably closest to understanding the biological basis of mammalian intelligence. Wapondaponda (talk) 20:42, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- You literally don't know what you're talking about. Neither do I. It's this kind of speculation which has stalled us. But with this list combined with expert opinion, I'm unstalling us (or trying to). We have to defer to an intelligence researcher to give us an expert opinion on your statement: "Intelligence is a broad phenomenon. Thus even the opinions of non-psychologists are be important. In fact psychometricians are experts in testing intelligence. But they may not have a clue about what intelligence is."
- Once I have a consensus on what statements we all agree are "okay" for us to use, I'm going to write an article outline based on the approved statement list. If the outline is approved by consensus (and is consistent with our official position list), I intend to write (with you guys) the article and provide the parts here for review as they are completed. Every single sentence will be backed up by a literature reference.
- Everything I hope to do here do here MUST be done under full consensus or I'm not wasting my time. If ludwig, (who I see is very busy with other projects) wants me to, as Capt. Kirk says, "take the con [console]", it would be MUCH easier for me to get us out of this infinite-loop-shaped rut we've been stuck in. With (and only with) unanimous consensus, I can design and help build this article, with NOBODY being able to say they didn't approve it. Ultimately, I'd like to see the article semi-locked to prevent airbody and they momma from adding their own personal guesses, beliefs, opinions, wishes, misinformation, assumptions, and propaganda on it.
- I wish I knew where the hell Bryan is so we can make some progress with the first phase, this list... TechnoFaye Kane 02:13, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
The journal "Intelligence" is the most authoritative publication in the field
- STATUS: agreed
- SOURCE: Dr. Pesta
- DISCUSSION: Thou shalt not contradict or argue the validity of anything published in the Journal. What is published there is the definition of "the mainstream thought". TechnoFaye Kane 07:30, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, but only if the "other scholarly opinion" is taken seriously by experts in the field. Gould's opinions, for instance, don't feed that bulldog.TechnoFaye Kane 21:56, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
The evidence is consistent with the genetic hypothesis
- STATUS: under discussion
- SOURCE: Dr. Pesta
- DISCUSSION:
- The current body of evidence can be seen as being consistent with the hereditarian model as well as directly refuting several key elements of the environmental model. There is no evidence to my knowledge which directly contradicts or otherwise renders the hereditarian model impossible. --Aryaman (talk) 15:08, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- That's certainly one published opinion which merits description in the article. If some scholar thinks that's wrong (i.e., that the available evidence rules out a genetic explanation), their attributed opinion should be described too if relevant. Think news piece, not review article. --DJ (talk) 19:54, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- The genetic model remains a viable model, however environmental factors have clearly explained at least some of the variance in test scores. Wapondaponda (talk) 20:42, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Wapondaponda, You know I thought that was an established fact too, but the available evidence is fairly tenuous when you drill down to specific causes. The breastfeeding research, for example, is a mine field. In aggregate, I don't think anyone disagrees that there are must be some classes of environmental factors that affect IQ because the behavior genetics says there are. I only mention that to point out that we should pick our wording carefully. --DJ (talk) 20:58, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
It is not necessary to define "race" or "intelligence" with infinite precision.
- STATUS: under discussion
- SOURCE: Dr. Pesta
- DISCUSSION: If we say that neither genetic-race nor IQ can be defined with 100% precision then we must add the statement that this is not necessary to scientifically study both topics. TechnoFaye Kane 07:30, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- It's more fair to say that it's not necessary for the editors of this article to do anything more than document published opinion, and also that scholarly disagreements about any particular topic (e.g. the definitions of race and intelligence) isn't a reason not to write the other parts of the article.
- Sure! As long as the other parts of the article don't contradict the opinions of experts in the field and we put it in the "historical" secition of the article,with a disclaimer like :"Note: experts in this field have declared this to be unsubstantiated BULL shit." TechnoFaye Kane 20:35, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Damn, I need to make an appointment at Sears optical. Please don't be offended since it's MY error, but I could SWEAR that you just wrote that it's not our responsibility to make the article internally consistent! ...There, I looked above and saw it again! It must be some kind of optical illusion involving my monitor. TechnoFaye Kane 20:35, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- We can't manufacturer consistency where it doesn't exist already. In effect I'm agreeing with your main point that It is not necessary to define "race" or "intelligence" with infinite precision but the reason is that we aren't responsible for meeting a standard that hasn't been met in the literature. If in one section we report that some people think that IQ tests are meaningless, it doesn't follow that we have censor opinions about IQ test results in other sections. --DJ (talk) 20:42, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Well, my point is that if in one section we report that some people think that IQ tests are meaningless,it MUST be denoted as "fringe science" because the APA, the journal "Intelligence", Dr. Pesta, and other psychometricians have stated flatly that IQ tests measure intelligence and do so accurately. TechnoFaye Kane 20:50, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- The book What is Intelligence? by James Flynn discusses some IQ paradoxes of the Flynn effect. --98.191.81.47 (talk) 12:28, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- ??? I don't see a shouting match, I see a very interesting discussion in which both sides are acting in good faith -- precisely what this mediation is for. Seeing it as a "shouting match" must be another one of those confrontative things that normal (non-autistic) people do. TechnoFaye Kane 21:06, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Gould has no credibility in the relevant scientific comunity
- STATUS: being discussed
- SOURCE: Dr. Pesta
- DISCUSSION: Gould has done no research on either race or itellitgence and is greatly disrespected by scientists in this field. He is not to be mentioned in this article. When Dr. OPesta once tried to cite gould so that he could show Gould was wrong, , the peer-reviewer saidf ""Why cite gould? The man is an idiot. He's an advocate, not a scientist. Would the authors cite a paper on young earth creationism in a paper about geography?" TechnoFaye Kane 07:30, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- As several proponents of the environmental model cite Gould, we can't get around having to at least mention his work, though it should be made clear that he had no expertise in psychometrics and that many of his most important conclusions are outdated with respect to the state of psychometric testing. --Aryaman (talk) 15:08, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, well the problem is that Gould pushes 100% environment, which according to experts, has been conclusively disproven. Not even any of you guys here is pushing it anymore. Gould and his ideas have been discredited, and experts in the field call him "an idiot".They say that citing him is like including creationist ideas in Geophysical Research Letters, the æther in Physics Letters, or phlogiston in the Journal of Physical Chemistry. Presenting him here as a viable explanation for the gap would be unconscionable, overt POV-pushing.
- That said, we really need to remember our audience, many of whom have been mesmerized by his propaganda. SO let's deal with him, but only to state his main ideas and show why they're wrong--in simple language. I'd be happy to do it. I LOVE explaining complex things (like hyperbolic geometry) in a way that's E-Z-2 understand. TechnoFaye Kane 20:25, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Gould (1981) is a credible source for some of the opinions of Gould circa 1981, but not much else. Attribution is the key to neutrality here. I agree that many and varied scholars have said Gould has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to psychometrics. --DJ (talk) 19:47, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Gould. The Mismeasure of Man. cited by 3963 publications
- Herrnstein. The Bell Curve. cited by 3248 publications
- Jensen. The g factor. cited by 1049 pubications
- Wapondaponda (talk) 20:42, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Dr. Pesta, could we get a referee call on this? TechnoFaye Kane 21:07, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Wapondaponda, yes, but I'm pretty sure that most of the citations on both Gould and Hernstein & Murray don't lend support to us treating either as representing a consensus about their topic. I also think Bartholomew (2004) does a pretty good job of demonstrating that we can't take Gould's summary of psychometrics as anything other than Gould's own opinions. --DJ (talk) 21:15, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Average brain size differences exist between races
- STATUS: agreed
- SOURCES: Dr. Pesta and dozens of replicated studies using four different methods, including MRI. Partial list:
- Harvey, I., Persaud, R., Ron, M. A., Baker, G., & Murray, R. M. (1994). Volumetric MRI measurements in bipolars compared.
- Beals, K. L., Smith, C. L., & Dodd, S. M. (1984). Brain size, cranial morphology, climate, and time machines. Current Anthropology, 25, 301–330.
- Ho, K. C., Roessmann, U., Straumfjord, J. V., & Monroe, G. (1980). Analysis of brain weight: I and II. Archives of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine, 104, 635–645.
- Johnson FW. Race and sex differences in head size and IQ. Intelligence 1994; 18: 309-33.
- Simmons K. Cranial capacities by both plastic and water techniques with cranial linear measurements. Hum Biol 1942; 14: 473-98.
- Rushton JP. Cranial size and IQ in Asian Americans from birth to age seven. Intelligence 1997; 25: 7-20.
- Rushton JP. Mongoloid-Caucasoid differences in brain size from military samples [and NASA]. Intelligence 1991; 15: 351-9.
- DISCUSSION: Numbers corrected for body size. No longer controversial among scientists Black avg have volume x, whites have x+5%, Asians have x + 6%. Proven unrelated to nutrition and everything else scientists could think of. This one needs lots of references. TechnoFaye Kane 07:30, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- "Human genetic diversity decreases in native populations with migratory distance from Africa and this is thought to be the result of bottlenecks during human migration, which are events that temporarily reduce population size. It has been shown that variations in skull measurements decrease with distance from Africa at the same rate as the decrease in genetic diversity."[22] It would be interesting to see whether the decrease in variation of skull measurements translated into changes in average cranial capacity along various migration routes (such as south to north or west to east). --98.191.81.47 (talk) 16:23, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- Not having reading enough of these papers myself, I'd want to be sure we captured the relevant range of opinions. --DJ (talk) 20:11, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- As Ralph Holloway has argued, pretty convincingly, brain structure matters far more than brain size. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:22, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- So what?? The question in this list item is "Average brain size differences exist between races". I deliberately designed this list so that individual items could be agreed on or, by consensus, rejected. If you want to add a new list item saying "The smaller brains of blacks doesn't have anything to do with their IQ scores of 'mentally retarded' because they have far superior brain structure", then do it. TechnoFaye Kane 11:43, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- In an interview conducted by the journal of the Archaeological Institute of America, Ralph Holloway had the following to say on this topic:
- Q: Brain size is often used as a proxy for intelligence. Is size more important than structure?
- In an interview conducted by the journal of the Archaeological Institute of America, Ralph Holloway had the following to say on this topic:
- R.H.: I would say they are both very important. But it's a bit of a conundrum. If natural selection favors increased brain size, and it's very important for intelligence, then what is the meaning of the variability of brain sizes that you see in modern populations? Is that related to intelligence?
- Q: What's the answer?
- R.H.: To me, it's yes, but that's a conundrum, I can't prove it. I don't know how anyone can say, 'If you increase brain size through the Pleistocene, it's all fine and well, but if you have differences in brain size now it doesn't correlate with intelligence.' Is there a relationship or not? The answer is yes, but we do not know how important the small differences in brain size in modern populations are for intelligence. I tend to doubt that the differences are very important.
- Are we talking about the same Ralph Holloway, Slrubenstein? --Aryaman (talk) 18:37, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- Arya, I consider it a simple matter of honesty and integrity to provide complete quotes, or at least not to delete relevant information. To the question, What's the answer?, you provided the first four sentences of Professor Holloway's reply. But you neglected the final sentence of his reply: "I tend to doubt that the differences are very important." Now, this is only ten words, which makes it a pretty short sentence. And it is clearly related to the point I made, and which you questioned. Please tell me why you left out these last ten words, after quoting over ten lines of the interview? What was your motive? Slrubenstein | Talk 19:10, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- Motive? None. I'd tell you how it happened, but you wouldn't believe me. However, I'll be happy to add it. Hell, I'll even bold it, just for you. Now, what does that last sentence tell us? That Holloway "tends to doubt" the importance of the established differences in average brain size between "modern populations" in regards to their respective levels of intelligence. He's a physical anthropologist, and he's certainly entitled to his doubts when it comes to psychometrics. What he's not telling us, however, is that there are no significant differences in average brain size between modern populations, or even that "brain structure matters far more than brain size". Happy? --Aryaman (talk) 19:50, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- Motive? None. I'd tell you how it happened, but you wouldn't believe me. However, I'll be happy to add it. Hell, I'll even bold it, just for you.
- You didn't need to include his last sentence. You could have even left out most of the rest. The relevant part was:
- R.H. ...the variability of brain sizes that you see in modern populations? Is that related to intelligence?
- You didn't need to include his last sentence. You could have even left out most of the rest. The relevant part was:
- Q: What's the answer?
- R.H.: To me, it's yes TechnoFaye Kane 11:43, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- Are we talking about the same man? We are. But this is out of context and not representative of his work (an interview from a second-tier journal in a field that is not Holloway's own is not the ideal source for representing his work, is it?). Cranial expansion is one trend in human evolution (meaning, the evolution of hominids from a pre-hominid genus) that all anthropologists agree on so clearly there is some relationship between brain size and intelligence. No doubt about it. But what I wrote was, "brain structure matters far more than brain size." and i stand by it. I suggest you read:
- 1966 Cranial capacity, neural reorganization, and hominid evolution: a search for more suitable parameters. American Anthropologist, 68:103-21.
- 1966 Structural reduction through ‘probable mutation effect’: a critique and questions regarding human evolution. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 25(1):7-12.
- 1967 The human brain in evolutionary perspective. In M. Fried (ed.), Readings in Anthropology, Volume I, 2nd Edition. pps. 215-23.
- 1967 The evolution of the human brain: some notes toward a synthesis between neural structure and the evolution of complex behavior. General Systems, XII: 3-19.
- 1968 The evolution of the primate brain: some aspects of quantitative relationships. Brain Research, 7:121-72.
- 1968 Cranial capacity and the evolution of the human brain. In M.F.A. Montagu (ed.), Culture, Man's Adaptive Dimension. New York: Oxford University Press, pps. 170-96.
- 1970 Australopithecine endocast (Taung specimen, 1924): a new volume determination. Science, 168:966-8.
- 1970 New endocranial values for the australopithecines. Nature, 227:199-200.
- 1972 Australopithecine endocasts, brain evolution in the Hominoidea and a model of hominid evolution. In R. Tuttle (ed.), The Functional and Evolutionary Biology of Primates. Chicago, New York: Aldine/Atherton Press. pps. 185-204.
- 1974 The casts of fossil hominid brains. Scientific American, 231(1):106-15.
- 1975 The Role of Human Social Behavior in the Evolution of the Brain [The 43rd James Arthur Lecture on the evolution of the human brain at the American Museum of Natural History, 1973]. New York: The American Museum of Natural History. 45 pps.
- 1975 Early hominid endocasts: volumes, morphology, and significance. In R. Tuttle (ed.), Primate Functional Morphology and Evolution. The Hague: Mouton, pps. 393-416.
- 1978 The relevance of endocasts for studying primate brain evolution. In C.R. Noback (ed.) Sensory Systems in Primates. New York: Academic Press, pps. 181-200.
- 1981 Exploring the dorsal surface of hominoid brain endocasts by stereoplotter and discriminant analysis. Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society (London). B 292:155-66.
- 1981 Volumetric and asymmetry determinations on recent hominid endocasts: Spy I and II, Djebel Ihroud I, and the Salè Homo erectus specimen, with some notes on Neandertal brain size. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 55:385-94.
- 1981 The Indonesian Homo erectus brain endocasts revisited. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 55: 503-21.
- 1981 Revisiting the South African Taung Australopithecine endocast: the position of the Lunate sulcus as determined by the stereoplotting technique. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 56:43-58.
- 1982 Holloway, R.L. and Post, D.G. The relativity of relative brain measures and hominid mosaic evolution. In E. Armstrong and D. Falk (eds.), Primate Brain Evolution: Methods and Concepts. New York: Plenum Publishing Co., pps. 57-76.
- Just a sample, but you need to interpret what he means in the context of his published research. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:55, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- Are we talking about the same man? We are. But this is out of context and not representative of his work (an interview from a second-tier journal in a field that is not Holloway's own is not the ideal source for representing his work, is it?). Cranial expansion is one trend in human evolution (meaning, the evolution of hominids from a pre-hominid genus) that all anthropologists agree on so clearly there is some relationship between brain size and intelligence. No doubt about it. But what I wrote was, "brain structure matters far more than brain size." and i stand by it. I suggest you read:
- Give us quotes or delete the cites, rubenstein. Nobody's gonna fall for your snow job TechnoFaye Kane 11:43, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- On the one hand, we have you telling us "Ralph Holloway argues that brain structure is far more important than brain size" and on the other we have Ralph Holloway himself telling the world via Archaeology that he believes both are "very important" factors in the development of intelligence, and that he believes there to be a correlation between brain size and intelligence, even in "modern populations". No, I have not read all of this man's works, nor do I need to in order to point out that there is a palpable discrepancy between your interpretation and what he's telling the folks at the Archaeological Institute of America. --Aryaman (talk) 19:24, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- Even he doesn't believe what he says, Varoon. It's called "intellectual dishonesty". It's also called "trolling" and "fucking with us because he thinks it's funny". A REAL moderator would inform him that there's been more than enough of it and to GTFO. TechnoFaye Kane 11:43, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
[new list item template]
- STATUS:
- SOURCE:
- DISCUSSION:
Copy the above 4-line template as it appears in the editing window, not as it appears in the talk page itself. Please copy it into a new list item; don't just use this one.
The easiest way to do that is [in the editing window] copy the four lines above, then paste the copy directly above what you just copied
...Thank you
Addressing new points
Hi all.
Quick note to say I have some comments re the new stuff. I hope to address them later tonight, or most likely by Tuesday night.
Thanks
Bpesta22 (talk) 18:34, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
- One question -- We seem to have a fairly good representation of the opinions of folks such as Flynn, Nisbett and Jensen in these discussions and in the article. Do you think we've also sufficiently captured the opinions of folks such as Jelte Wicherts, John Loehlin, and Earl Hunt? --DJ (talk) 20:49, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Ah, I just now realized I had some messages -- sorry for not replying. I'm not as clueless as it seems here. I've been posting on internet forums for about 20 years. Wiki seems very odd to me, in terms of how posts are laid out and replied to. My apologies.
Re The biology of race.
I don't know; nor do I think anyone knows exactly what the biology of race is. Even given that, I personally find claims that race is 100% social kind of silly. So, depending on the environment one is raised in, could you take a white skinned kid and have him grow up to be black (or vice versa)? My tentative definition is "skin color and it's biological co-variates." That definition needs more precision-- is certainly not 100% precise-- but I'll defer to the geneticists.
We can study things (especially the effects of things) without having them 100% precisely defined. Welcome to social science. Many constructs here are ill-defined (motivation; leadership; intelligence, etc). Anything we measure, though, is "good" to the extent it is both reliable and valid. SIRE seems to have high reliability (there are many ways to conceptualize this, but I suspect that people consistently check the same box when asked, or that raters would consistently agree on race for most people. None of this would be 100% precise, but no measurement ever is. My guess is the reliability of race as a measure would be well above the conventional threshold-- .70-- for having utility).
Is SIRE valid? My guess is yes, but not perfectly so. If one day science agrees on the exact genetic patterns that differentiate white from black, I'd bet a large sum that these patterns would correlate very strongly with SIRE. Indirect measurement is quite common in psychology. We can't see how you encode/store/retrieve information, e.g., but we can make inferences about these processes by looking at error rates or reaction time (that is the idea behind cognitive psychology-- we can study un-observable mental processes indirectly but validly by looking at observable things like errors or speed). The whole idea in testing is that we can't look at you and tell how smart you are (the latent / unobservable construct here being intelligence) but we can create a test (the manifest indicator) and the test scores being observable can be used to make inferences about how much of the latent construct you possess. I think skin color is a valid (but not perfect) manifest indicator for the (as yet unknown) genetics of race (the latent construct).
The solution seems to be linking to another wiki stub that gets into what race means, but sticking here to only discussion of *IQ scores* (whether true measures of human intelligence, or junk science) and *race* differences (whether SIRE is a highly accurate proxy for the biology of race or not).
If you all are still debating the practical significance / utility of all this, then appeal to effect sizes is the way to go. Effect sizes (versus statistical significance) get at practical significance. Using conventions here, the race effects are huge. It is rare to see effects this large in social science. The practical implications are vast. IQ offers a potentially parsimonious explanation for a host of variables where races come out unequal. When you aggregate the effects to groups of people (versus individuals) the effects become even more important. If this is too vague, let me know and I will follow up on it when I get more time.
Bpesta22 (talk) 04:26, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
I am not a geneticist nor an expert on race. If there is a biology of race, I suspect it's a fuzzy category (a continuum versus a dichotomy). That doesn't bother me personally because social science is all about fuzziness. But, if race exists at all biologically then I would bet lots that a simple measure of skin color would correlate very strongly with whatever clusters that biologists identify as "race". So, I think it's a moot point (I can't imagine a scenario where when biology makes a definitive statement on the biology of race, that their definition will not correlate very largely with skin color and SIRE).
As practical measures, proxies become more and more useful as the correlation between them and what they're a proxy for increases. So, in my opinion, it's reasonable to study this stuff using a less than perfect proxy, rather than be handcuffed by those who demand a 100% accurate/precise definition of the construct before any data on the topic can be taken seriously.
That said, it's true that the social aspects of race are perfectly confounded with whatever the biology is. That demands serious study before inferences can be made. Many studies have been done, though, and I think we can come to some tentative but scientific conclusions (i.e., that no simple social/environmental confounding variable is the magic bullet. And, that many indirect predictions made by the genes > 0 seem supported, whereas despite decades of study, no factor x's in the environment explain the gap).
So, my suggestion is to be very literal. We're talking here about the relationship between "SIRE" (and the baggage behind that) and "scores on an IQ test" (and the baggage behind that). Links to what race is, and to what IQ is, could satisfy the interested reader. This stub, however, should focus on the data relevant to these two variables, and how genes versus environment make different predictions regarding what should happen when potential confounding variables are controlled.Researchers who study this stuff are obviously aware of the confound, and have made attempts to tease out the genes/biology versus environment. That's what the article here should focus on.
It's late; sorry if my writing here sucks!
184.59.172.151 (talk) 04:42, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
New person hello
My name Is Dr. Tony Roberts. I teach research design, statistics, ethics, and other subjects. My web page is here. I am sorry to enter this discussion so late in the game. I probably won't contribute a lot, but I find it fascinating to watch this process unfold. Someone could do a thesis on the social dynamics of this discussion. Yes, I know the editor Faye, but since bat-shit insanity is not contagious, I find her quite harmless. Dr.TMRoberts (talk) 05:08, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- If you're going to contribute, please sign onto the agreements on the main page, and please take the time to go over the old discussions. Otherwise you risk throwing in new monkey wrenches (we have enough of that already...).
- and I think Faye's entry has been upgraded to 'mostly harmless'.
--Ludwigs2 05:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- Men! You're all alike! TechnoFaye Kane 06:24, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- Boring technical note about IP addresses: Unless he logged in from campus, his and mine will be the same except for the last octet because we're on the same router. I just wanted it in the record to avoid sock puppet accusations. TechnoFaye Kane 06:24, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
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- ^ Witherspoon DJ, Wooding S, Rogers AR; et al. (2007). "Genetic similarities within and between human populations". Genetics. 176 (1): 351–9. doi:10.1534/genetics.106.067355. PMC 1893020. PMID 17339205.
{{cite journal}}: Explicit use of et al. in:|author=(help); Unknown parameter|month=ignored (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) - ^ "Intelligent People Have "Unnatural" Preferences and Values That Are Novel in Human Evolutionary History". American Sociological Association press release. 2010-02-23.
- ^ "Liberals and Atheists Smarter? Intelligent People Have Values Novel in Human Evolutionary History, Study Finds". ScienceDaily. 2010-02-24.