Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view

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[edit] UAF

section refactored to Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#UAF

[edit] Minor typo to rectify

Y Wifione ^Message

Someone could change "Verifiable public and scholarly critiques provides useful context for works of art" to Verifiable public and scholarly critiques *provide* useful context for works of art." Simple change of singular/plural number agreement.Brunsonish

[edit] Question

Let's say that there is yet-uncovered controversy at an article, a controversy which met all of the criteria (weight, sourcing) for inclusion in the article. "Side A" puts in material about the controversy, selecting material and sources favorable to their assertion, and meeting all criteria except for the posited requirement discussed in the next sentences. An editor from "Side B" does not add "Side B" material, but instead completely deletes "Side A'" material, citing wp:npov as a justification, saying that the addition of "Side A" material (without Side B material) creates a violation of the balance required by wp:npov. In such a case, does wp:npov justify the deletion of "Side A" material for that reason? North8000 (talk) 12:36, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

someone from side A should add the side B material in such a way that no one can tell his personal POV. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:09, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that would be a solution, but the question is whether wp:npov justifies the described deletion. North8000 (talk) 13:21, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

There are quite a few unknown nuances to your theoretical. For example, I would want to know if Side A material or Side B material falls under WP:REDFLAG. Also would want to know if Side A or B is actually a fringe view being promoted as a mere "controversy". Describing something as a "yet-uncovered" controversy also makes me wonder if there's more going on that meets the eye. - LuckyLouie (talk) 14:03, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

There's a real article which prompted my question, but I was viewing my question as on a narrower topic, and so the answer would not be directly applicable to or used on the article which, like most situations, is never that simple. North8000 (talk) 18:01, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Generic questions like the one posed cannot be answered in any meaningful manner: it all depends on the topic and the nature of the edits. Also, interpretations of NPOV should be asked at WP:NPOVN. Johnuniq (talk) 02:15, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

I think that the question was pretty narrow and specific and not situation-dependent: When only one side of a controversy is covered, does wp:npov particularly empower removal of the covered side as a way to remedy the imbalance? But either way, thanks for all of your thoughts. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 02:55, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Jimbo once said, and I agree with him on this, that it's better to have no information than to have wrong information in an article. If the included information biases the article and leaves the reader with a wrong impression about the nature of the debate, then yes, it should be removed until a version is created that gives a balanced view of the debate. LK (talk) 05:18, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

The article should have a NPOV tag stuck at the top of it with the reasons stated as above. It may be reasonable to remove part of the POV material which is pushing a side too hard but anything that would reasonably be there should be left. It is up to other editors to fix the article in accordance with the tag. We cannot judge something without evidence and removing the article without the evidence would be that. And if the evidence is got it can be added to the article. As that other tag says, for the opposite side {{citation needed}}. Dmcq (talk) 10:06, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Let's say that there is an article about a planned new bridge. There is a lot of coverage in reliable sources that some people are opposed to it because it will be ugly, but no mention of that controversy in the article. So an editor "A" puts in sourced coverage of that opposition, as such. Editor "B" immediately deletes the new material, saying that it violates wp:npov because the addition didn't cover the "the bridge isn't ugly" view point. Does wp:npov support that deletion on that basis? (And, as an aside, one could argue that editor "A"'s addition rectified an NPOV violated rather than creating a violation). North8000 (talk) 12:18, 22 December 2011 (UTC) North8000 (talk) 12:18, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

I think it is wishful thinking to assume that the nature of a debate is universally agreed. That still does not stop us from describing, impartially, the various points of view of those in the debate. For example, there is no doubt, and it is an incontrovertible fact, that some people believe that the Moon is made of cheese.[1][2][3][4] And of course we can state the more usual view of planetary scientists.[5] I doubt there are any peer reviewed sources criticising a cheesy Moon, and I don't think we need to state the nature of the debate. Undue weight would stop us including a Moon made from cheese in the main article on the Moon, but I think there is more than enough good material to warrant an article devoted to a Moon made of cheese. --Iantresman (talk) 12:58, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Wouldn't you know, there is already an article on "The Moon is made of green cheese" --Iantresman (talk) 12:59, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

That is a conflicting view about a matter of fact (what the moon is made of) In my example it was a matter of personal/opinion/interests/priorities/values. But in either event, the question is whether wp:npov supports deletion of the imbalancing material on the basis that it creates an imbalance. North8000 (talk) 13:45, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

If disproportionate amounts of detail and quotes sourced entirely to proponents are added (this is often the case in the UFO articles), then yes, I'd remove much of it according to WP:UNDUE. As I understand it, weight given to a subject should be roughly equivalent to the attention it's been given by 3rd party independent and reliable sources. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:01, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

(1) If I have a lot of material for an article on a "pseudoscientific" subject, it does not make sense that I should "hold back" because there is either insufficient material, or people have not gotten around to adding material, of a contrary view. Either the material is accurate and well-sourced, or it is not. It does not make sense that material is conditional on their being contrary views. (2) There is also no reason to pick on "pseudoscience" for this requirement. Does it apply to "fringe science"? How about minority views? What about articles on minority religious? Do we cut them down because we can't "balance" the article with comparisons with majority religions? --Iantresman (talk) 15:27, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Here's one example of an article about a religious belief; Our Lady of Soufanieh. It was found crammed with credulous detail primary-sourced to proponent sites and sources that were arguably SELFPUB, as seen here. The solution was to find reliable secondary sources that covered the topic (there were few) and edit the article accordingly. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:45, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

My example was simpler. Complete immediate deletion of viewpoint A on the basis that it created an imbalance because viewpoint "B" was not yet added. The remedy is for persons with viewpoint "B" should add their material, not delete viewpoint "A". Think of it, without this, any first addition of viewpoint A material can be immediately deleted unless the same editor adds viewpoint B material. North8000 (talk) 16:17, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Quite logical in theory, but in practice it can provoke a lot of strife on the Talk page if someone dumps a ton of material slanted toward a minority POV into an article and leaves it up to others to fill in the majority POV. Regarding your bridge example: if there is "a lot of coverage in reliable sources that some people are opposed to it because it will be ugly" I would be very surprised if those same reliable sources didn't also touch on the "it's not ugly" view. It would be wise for the editor adding material about the 'controversy' to add that material as well rather than leave it to others. - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:37, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree with North8000. You don't delete viewpoint A because viewpoint B has not been added. Coverage of viewpoint A does not imply a bias towards viewpoint A (it's all about how it is worded). I am quite happy to have an entire article on a Flat Earth, with just a single mention to the mainstream article on the planet Earth. --Iantresman (talk) 17:24, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Are you happy to have an entire article called "Shape of the Earth", that only includes (well-cited) coverage of the flat earth viewpoint without a single mention of the mainstream view? That said, there should be reliable sources provided that View B is at least as notable as View A, before View A is trimmed back. LK (talk) 04:24, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

As I said, I'm happy to have the article well-cited (primary/secondary sources), and just one mention to the mainstream article. We only need to say once, that this minority view is a minority view, and that there is a mainstream view, to put it into context. Of course if there are other well-cited criticisms, we included those too. The articles on Flat Earth and The Moon is made of green cheese, seem to be fair examples. --Iantresman (talk) 09:20, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

I think that as long as the wording is right, those are very factual articles on what those people are people are saying. Incidentally, I have been resisting making this be about the particular situation that prompted me to bring up this narrower question, but in every way it is very much like my "bridge" example above. The first modest addition of material covering the "it's ugly" controversy was immediately removed (citing wp:npov as a basis) on the grounds that the "it's not ugly" viewpoint was not yet covered. North8000 (talk) 11:24, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

[edit] WP:BALANCE/Balance redirects

Is it normal practice to have redirects that only differ in the use of caps to redirect to different places? I'm not aware of any other cases: WP:BALANCE (all caps) redirects to the How to put up a straight pole by pushing it at an angle essay. WP:Balance (only first letter caps) redirects to the balance subsection of Neutral point of view. - RN1970 (talk) 05:32, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Pending a potential outcome, I have placed one of the standard Policy shortcut boxes on the page. If the final result is status quo, it should remain. If either the full-caps or non-caps redirect ends up being changed, one of the policy shortcuts should also be removed (depending on which is changed, either the policy shortcut I just placed in WP:POV or the one in the How to put up a straight pole... essay). RN1970 (talk) 06:47, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view

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[edit] UAF

[edit] Minor typo to rectify

[edit] Question

[edit] WP:BALANCE/Balance redirects

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