Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)
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Baron according to modern doctrine, but who was never so styled
Please see WT:PEERAGE#Baron according to modern doctrine, but who was never so styled and to keep the conversation in one place if you have an opinion about how such articles should be named please express it there. -- PBS (talk) 02:30, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
There is a discussion at Talk:Richard John Bingham, 7th Earl of Lucan#Requested move which affects the vast majority of articles on British hereditary peers.
Wives of British peers
The guide states that the style "Georgiana Spencer, Duchess of Devonshire would be anachronism." What is the basis for this claim? Both presently and historically, the Duchess of Devonshire does not use the surname Cavendish. She would never have been known to her contemporaries as "Georgiana Cavendish," she would not have signed her name that way, either in legal or personal papers, nor would anyone have known her by that name. She would have signed her letters "Georgiana Devonshire" and legal documents as "Georgiana, Duchess of Devonshire" (N.B.: I looked for a historical example and couldn't find one easily for the latter, though I have plenty for the former, and would be interested in reviewing a page image or transcription of, say, a will of a peeress). And it was not at all unusual, then or now, to use the style "Georgiana Spencer, Duchess of Devonshire" because it distinguishes her from any other Duchesses of Devonshire who also happen to be named Georgiana (this is the style usually seen in portrait captions in both books and prints and in online art collections, though they frequently omit any surname); a peeress's contemporaries who knew her before her marriage might continue to refer to her by her maiden name familiarly; and this style is common in modern usage in the genealogical context. If anything is anachronistic, in my opinion, it's imposing a 21st-century view of naming conventions in placing her under a name she never used, and which never looks or "sounds" right to me, no matter how many times I see it on Wikipedia. I do note that DNB and similar works do alphabetize under the surname, but this is an editorial decision made to group all members of a family together: such alphabetizing considerations do not apply on Wikipedia, where we create groupings in different ways (or not at all, relying on search engines), so it seems strange to me to use a rule designed for obsolete printed material (we don't title articles "Cavendish, Georgiana, Duchess of Devonshire" as the DNB does, after all).
I am certain that this issue has been thrashed out ad nauseam in the past, so I'll simply ask: What is the justification for this styling fiat? Not trying to start WWIII here, just wondering why, and wondering if it's etched in stone. Thanks! Laura1822 (talk) 16:48, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- I observe that the article is at Georgiana Cavendish, Duchess of Devonshire. This seems appropriate. Her husband's surname was Cavendish and so was hers. Though she probably rarely used it (due to her title), it would also have been the surname of her children. With Defaultsort, we do not have to use the artifical word order of DNB. I see nothing wrong with the present title of the article. The titles for consorts are a difficult area. Since there is no ordinal (unlike peers) there is room for ambiguity, but we do not need to be too pedantic over the strict application of WP rules. We now often depart from them these days, though a redirect from the "correct form" should exist in such cases. Peterkingiron (talk) 14:18, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- Our objection, in short, is to the use of her maiden name. I do not recall the cry for this, but I'm sure there was one. I have attempted to clarify.
Proposed restrictions on styles & titles of former royals
A proposal is now pending to !vote to ban use of titles, honorifics and styles historically associated with titled members of no longer reigning families or to require that wherever such titles are mentioned in a Wikipedia bio, article or template that a disclaimer must be attached informing the reader that the title/style is not legal or is a courtesy title only. You may read opinions and express your views here. FactStraight (talk) 22:47, 26 November 2013 (UTC)