Wikipedia talk:Non-free content

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€2 commemorative coins with external links[edit]

For many years now there's been controversy regarding the use of non-free images, the use of images from Commons, and external links. A very large number of images have been deleted from Commons that were uploaded by users who then subsequently added them to this article. We have an example case going on right now at Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/Greek Euro coins uploaded by Skonix. Due to the never ending disputes over images on this article, some editors have undertaken an effort to use external links to point to images of the coins, rather than upload images to Commons or here.

The problem here is WP:ELNEVER: "Linking to websites that display copyrighted works is acceptable as long as the website has licensed the work, or uses the work in a way compliant with fair use." There are several sites that are linked from €2 commemorative coins:

and a few others. These sites have not licensed the works. I have a hard time believing these sites would comply with fair use requirements, but others may disagree. Thoughts? From another angle; is there any other article on Wikipedia that handles large numbers of non-free images via external linking? Is this how we really want an article to appear? I'm loathe to remove the external links as I'm sure it'll start yet another fight, and I'm tired of fighting.

Another option, which hasn't been tried, is to upload all the non-free euro coin national sides and put them on the article. This would instantly generate the largest article user of non-free images (at over 150) on the project by more than three times over (current holder is History of painting at 42). That might open up another can of worms, the unspoken special exclusion that currency articles get from the WP:NFCC policy. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:11, 30 April 2015 (UTC) (Pinging recent significant contributors to the article; @Gerd.Seyffert:@LitoPap:@

They should be linking to the ECB's page, here [1], the authorative and copyright holding-source. Links to blogs like this falls into WP:ELMAYBE, but if there's a better site as the one I just included, that definitely makes these other ones unnecesssary and inappropriate. --MASEM (t) 14:37, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
(To add, I think the sites given are within fair use, but again, we have a more authorative source that does the same job, that removes all doubt from their use). --MASEM (t) 14:39, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
@MASEM: Linking to the ECB's page is no solution to the dilemma, because the EU - not the ECB - is holder only of the design's copyright of the reverse sides (naming the value of coins from 1 Cent to 2 Euro) and of the obverse sides of the - up to now - three common commemorative coins of 2007, 2009 and 2012. I contacted the European Commission (DG Economic and financial affairs - Unit Financial institutions and stability mechanisms - Eurocash and Legal Issues) and they wrote to me on 30 July 2013:
"Two issues have to be differentiated: access to reliable information on the coins and reproduction of the design. Reproduction of the national sides of the euro coins (ie. of "regular" euro circulation coins and 2 euro commemorative coins other than 2 euro common commemorative coins) is governed by the legislation of the issuing euro area countries, since they are the holders of the copyright of the design of the national sides. Therefore, reproduction of these designs is governed by the respective national law. For reproduction of the national design features, euro cash users and collectors must revert to the national authorities, it being understood that Member States acting under national law competence may indeed put restrictions on using their design for reproduction.
@Hammersoft: I then contacted the German National Bank (Deutsche Bundesbank), which gave me this hint: responsible for the emission of German coins is the Ministry of Finance (Bundesministerium der Finanzen, Referat VIII A) in Berlin. Finally, after many months of pushing, on 26 May 2014, I received this statement:
"Das Urheberrecht am Münzbild der europäischen Seite der Euro-Umlaufmünzen hält die Europäischen Union, die es ihren Mitgliedstaaten übertragen hat. In der Mitteilung der Kommission zum urheberrechtlichen Schutz des Münzbilds der gemeinsamen Seite der Euro-Münzen (2001/C 318/03) hat die Kommission die Übertragung mit der Auflage verbunden, Reproduktionen in Form von Fotografien zuzulassen, sofern sie wahrheitsgetreu und nicht in einer das Ansehen des Euro herabsetzenden Weise erfolgen. Unter diesen Bedingungen ist die Abbildung der europäischen Seite des Euro in der von Ihnen beschriebenen Art in der Onlineenzyklopädie „Wikipedia“ zulässig.
I'll try to translate the main points, also referring to the mentioned document
The copyright on the design of the common face of the euro coins belongs to the European Community represented by the Commission. The European Commission has assigned to each of the Member States adopting the euro all the Community rights as regards the territory of such Member State. Reproduction of all or part of the common face design of the euro coins is authorised without recourse to a specific procedure in the following cases: for reproductions in flat format provided they are in faithful likeness and are used in ways which do not damage or detract from the image of the euro...
Under these conditions the depiction of Euro's "European" side in "Wikipedia" - in the way you described it - is permitted.
Hinsichtlich des Münzbildes der nationalen deutschen Seite der Euro-Umlaufmünzen ist die Bundesrepublik Deutschland, vertreten durch das Bundesfinanzministerium als Münzherr, ausschließlich nutzungsberechtigt. Die Abbildung des Münzbildes in den von Ihnen unter „Wikipedia“ erstellten Artikeln stehen auf Seiten des Bundesministeriums der Finanzen keine Bedenken entgegen. >>> In terms of the depiction of national sides of German Euro coins, the Federal Republik of Germany, represented by the Ministry of Finance, is only authorized user. There are no objections of the Ministry of Finance to depictions of coins in Wikipedia articles (like the ones) you edited. [By the way: On the phone, they explicitly approved depictions in Wikipedia!].
Sofern die Abbildung des Münzbildes anderer Mitgliedstaaten beabsichtigt ist, sind die entsprechenden Staaten von Ihnen unmittelbar zu kontaktieren. >>> For depictions of coins of other member states these states have to be contacted directly.
Eine freie Lizenz in dem von Ihnen heute vorgeschlagenen Sinn kann leider nicht erteilt werden; insbesondere die dort vorgesehene gewerbliche Nutzung der Münzabbildungen steht unserer Verwaltungspraxis entgegen." >>> A free license as you proposed today [as required by Wikipedia] can not be granted, especially because the (included) commercial use contradicts our administration practice.
One year of efforts left me quite frustrated. Nevertheless: hope to have been of use, Gerd--Gerd.Seyffert (talk) 19:03, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Gerd, your efforts are extraordinary! They are far and away well above the effort I've seen put forth by anyone here to help clear up copyright issues on any single image, much less a group of images. I commend you! With what they've responded above, this confirms that any depiction of national sides of Euro coins (from most countries; Finland is an exception for example) would have to fall under terms of fair use and comply with WP:NFCC policy. Previously, we have linked to images on the German language Wikipedia, which has a differing standard. Nevertheless, I don't think that usage is usable here unless we locally host it here with a rationale, rather than pointing to them and saying they say it's free therefore its free (when it obviously isn't). --Hammersoft (talk) 19:15, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
You could link to the appropriate pages from Official Journal of the European Union which are located here: [2] and include the images of the coins on the various pages. But I would not object to the ECB site being used either only because of their position as being the central back of the EU, that they would have clear fair use allowances to use the coin images as part of their function in an official capacity. These blogs, on the other hand, are just blogs and their use is questionable. --MASEM (t) 19:17, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
To add, even if the Official Journal of the EU doesn't own the copyrights on the coins and they belong to the member states, their inclusion via the journal of an official gov't entity is not going to trip anyone's copyright alarm that WP:EL concerns itself with. --MASEM (t) 19:19, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
@Hammersoft: Thanks for your remarks! Especially since German Wikipedia was instructed 2012 by a verdict (concerning copyright of stamps:, that depictions of stamps are not considered to be Public Domain, I was fighting hard to keep depictions of Euro coins out of that quarrel. In vain. The above quoted statements are much less than the tip of the iceberg... Differing standards of German Wikipedia are imminent to be wiped out. The apodictic stance of Wikipedia, to insist on free licenses, ruined all efforts. By the way: The times they are a changing - Finland changed its rules, as far as I know - it's only Lithuania nowadays, which considers depictions of coins to be Public Domain...
@Masem: I would'nt object to the ECB site as well - I appreciate all kind of information and depictions of Euro coins! --Gerd.Seyffert (talk) 20:33, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
Also as a possible help: if any of the images can be hosted on under NFC, specifically meeting NFCC#8 (in that there is sourced discussion and commentary about any of the coin images that goes beyond a simple description or artist details, such as a source critically commenting on the artistic aspect of the coin's engraving as it relates to the country it represents), that's a further option. The offsite linking to the Official Journal or ECB is always there, but you have this option if such exists (it usually doesn't for most coins). --MASEM (t) 20:48, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Not trying to stir a hornet's nest, but provide information to the discussion. Currency articles are subject to a unwritten special exemption from the NFCC policy. You do not have to have sourced discussion about the design in order to allow the image onto currency lists such as the article being discussed here. In theory, this article could host more than 150 non-free images, and be compliant with policy. See examples Banknotes of the Australian dollar (over which there was a huge debate a long time ago), Nicaraguan córdoba, and many more. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:36, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
  • I would say that the differentiation on currency articles is showing the base current bills/coins in circulation across various denominations, as both the links above give is likely appropriate for encyclopedia completeness (even though I honestly believe there is a better "less NFC use" solution without impacting that factor), verses a series of special print bills/coins for commemorative events, which do not serve the same encyclopedic nature. --MASEM (t) 22:22, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
  • @Hammersoft: As mentioned above, the Federal Republik of Germany, represented by the Ministry of Finance, claimed to be only authorized user of the copyright (of the national sides of commemorative coins). I doubt that and guess that they are trying to avoid to stand straight. I spoke to two of Germanys most succsessfull designers of coins and they told me, that the copyright of the coin's design has to be assigned to the Ministry of Finance when the design is chosen and the deal signed. The designer himself does no longer hold the copyright of his work..! --Gerd.Seyffert (talk) 01:06, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
One of the sites you mentioned in your first post, that is linked from €2 commemorative coins -, an image upload/hosting service - hosts the scans I made, I have to confess...--Gerd.Seyffert (talk) 13:50, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
  • For shame, for shame! :) --Hammersoft (talk) 14:44, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
All my sins are already deleted and (as the refs of as well) replaced by the 2014 Official Journals of the European Union. Poor visual quality, but according to Masem's smart advice... As soon as the Official Journals of the 2015 coins are known, I will replace the refs to numismatica-visual as well. Friends again ?? --Gerd.Seyffert (talk) 17:16, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Jerk ;) No, seriously, thank you again for your work on this. Truly appreciated! --Hammersoft (talk) 17:21, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
I just linked all available 2015 Journals of the European Union. My pleasure! Gerd--Gerd.Seyffert (talk) 17:47, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
Just managed to revise 2013. It needs a lot of concentration to detect all those journals. Quite dizzy already... I'll work my way back to 2006, steady, but slowly. --Gerd.Seyffert (talk) 18:44, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Question about screenshot usage[edit]

I normally would have posted this at Wikipedia talk:Software screenshots, but that talk page has been dead for two years, so...

Is there a set determination on when website screenshots are acceptable and when they aren't? I ask because of a screenshot I placed on Feminist Porn Award that kept getting removed (by a user who I requested an IBAN on, btw, but that's another story). Including said screenshot doesn't appear to violate anything on WP:SCREENSHOT, and I clearly stated that in the edit summaries when I restored it (I only restored it twice because I didn't want to violate WP:3RR, although the other user warned me about 3RR anyway; strange, because he did it three times). Erpert blah, blah, blah... 02:06, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
While there may be times this isn't the case, I think your screenshot fails NFCC Criteria 8. There is nothing in the text that references the layout or design of the website, nor do I see how having the screen shot increases reader understanding of the subject. We all know what websites look like, so there would need to be something special or unusual about this particular one that text is insufficient to describe, which there isn't here. Which means it is basically just decoration; that is perfectly acceptable when the image is free, but not allowed when the image is being used under NFCC. Monty845 02:17, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
  • I concur with Monty845. However, if you can obtain an image of the award itself (is there one?) rather than just the website, that would be acceptable. See for example Academy Awards.
  • NFCC issues aside, there's serious problems with the nature of your editing. Communicating with someone through edit summaries is rarely helpful. Observed WP:BRD which isn't policy, but a very useful essay. After Hullaballoo Wolfowitz removed the image, or at the very latest have you restored it, you should have initiated discussion. This did not happen. Instead, an edit war erupted. Edit warring in an attempt to push an image onto an article rarely, if ever, works. Also be aware that WP:3RR does not give you permission to revert three times and only be blocked on the fourth within 24 hours. Next time, begin discussion and support your position with policy/guideline as you did here rather than edit warring. The two of you have been in conflict before, at least as far back as 2013: [3][4]. Trust me, I know all too well of the drain on your soul that happens when an editor maintains a conflict with you for years. The way through this is not edit warring.
  • Of note; you are correct about Wikipedia talk:Software screenshots. There are fewer than 30 people watching the page (and even those may be long gone) and it averages just over 1 page view a day. Yet another symptom of a dying project with fewer and fewer people actively editing. I've redirected the page to Wikipedia:Media copyright questions, which is still active and has close to 2000 watchers. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:48, 5 May 2015 (UTC)