Wikipedia talk:Non-free content

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See also: Wikipedia talk:Non-free content criteria exemptions

RFC on non-free content handling, in particular in history revisions

NFCC states as policy (#9: "Restrictions on location") that display of non-free images isn't allowed on any page on Wikipedia other than mainspace articles and a few administrative exemptions. It doesn't say how they should be handled. Sometimes such revisions should be deleted or removed from public view. But against that, there is probably a practical and reasonable limit, we don't want to encourage well-meaning but disruptive rampant ransacking of the entirety of Wikipedia page history looking for and deleting any non-content revisions displaying a non-free image. (At least, not without consensus).

Criteria for deletion tools is being discussed elsewhere and clarity at NFCC would help - the issue is best resolved by consensus on best practice of NFCC handling. Sometimes revisions displaying NF content may need to be deleted and not just edited out - but when? What criteria? How narrow?

WP:NFCC is mute. It just says it's not allowed, but not whether, when or how they may be removed if they happen. The policy doesn't say whether removing a displayed free image (by editing the page) is usually sufficient or if it must also be removed from history like any copyvio. If the line isn't at either extreme but somewhere in-between, or specific circumstances may affect the decision, then there is no guidance on best practice.

This RFC is to ask users interested in NFCC to help draw up brief guidance in WP:NFCC for appropriate handling/removal of non-free images that breach policy #9:

1. When is editing to remove the displayed image sufficient? When is deletion appropriate (or not)?
2. Are non-free images in page history ok or should they be deleted sometimes? When if ever would it be appropriate (or not) to selectively delete a revision from page history that breaches NFCC restrictions on display? (they can't be removed by editing)

FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 02:17, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I think this is actually covered, for non-free images. NFC is quiet on free image issues, but to summarize:

On 1, a non-free image on a user page should be removed by editing out the wikitext that included the image. If this happens to leave the image an orphan, the normal policy (7 days) is granted before the image itself is deleted. The "when" is basically whenever it is discovered - though one should use common sense to see if the page is a userspace draft being prepared to be returned in the very short term back to mainspace.

On 2, there is zero need to revdel edits that add non-free images to user pages. Yes, technically that means I can permlink to a version of a userpage that has a non-free image that wasn't orphaned on it, but I would equate the existance of such with the fact that we have to display images for non-free image maintenance categories. --MASEM (t) 02:52, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

The reason for this RFC is in order to have certainty in the discussion on deletion tool criteria:

• If deletion tools should never be used to remove from public view a revision showing non-free content, then can NFCC policy say so;
• If there might be cases where they can/should be used then can NFCC policy provide guidance.

The difficulty is that we do have at least one policy which says deletion tools should be used for at least some pages that display non-free images. So RevDelete policy and Speedy Delete policy both approve deletion tools for non-free content on at least some pages and in some circumstances, but they're oddly incomplete or inconsistent (for example CSD says that images may be speedy deleted in some forbidden pages but not others; it's also clear they may be deleted if they constitute a "gallery" but if they are anything else it's left to ad-hoc decision and IAR). It raises a question when else exactly they may/should be used, and when not? NFCC says that no Wikipedia page outside content/limited admin pages may display non-free images. In principle and as an ideal, NFCC implies that deletion of offending history pages is appropriate or possibly expected ("images may only be displayed..."). If they shouldn't ever be, or shouldn't normally be, then brief policy guidance would help.

So... well, you see the problem. We can't easily reach consensus over deletion tool criteria which we'd like to tighten, without an idea what's desirable for NFCC, Right now this whole area is wide open to varying interpretation concerning NF images in other forbidden pages and their history. I agree with you most of the time but I can imagine there will be some situations where we do want to delete them, and some where guidance is needed. But when (and when not)? Easiest non-contentious solution: - ask users interested in NFCC to discuss what they want the box to say :) FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 03:51, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I think it's making too much of a problem of a non-issue. The only reason we ask for the deletion of unused non-free images is per the Foundation Resolution. But this is specifically about the images themselves, and not the wikitext surrounding their implementation. We do have a near non-allowance for non-free content on user pages, but that's specifically an en.wiki factor.

Or to put it another way: rev-del should be used to remove edits that are harmful to WP - BLP violations, intra-editor slander, outings, etc. The display of a non-free image in userspace is far from harmful of these cases. We don't allow it as it hurts the free content mission, but the odd exception here or there is not going to cause a lawsuit to come down on WP. So it seems overkill to worry about revdel'ing an edit that a user, unintentionally or not, adds a non-free image to a user page. --MASEM (t) 04:13, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

"The difficulty is that we do have at least one policy which says deletion tools should be used for at least some pages that display non-free images." - If we are to follow this, it'll simply create too much work. Simple removal of the image should be enough, it'll be an enormous workload if we delete every revision outside of the article space that, at some point in time, contained a non-free image. —Dark 05:05, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Masem and DarkFalls. When we find non-free files outside of the article space, we remove them. In fact, we have a bot that does it for the userspace. If that orphanes the files, they get put up for deletion. If the files are used elsewhere, they stay around. As to the second concern, revdelling revisions that contain links to non-free images would be an enormous timesink that would serve absolutely zero purpose. Sven Manguard Wha? 05:10, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I would just say to make sure that the image is not displayed in the page where it is not allowed to be displayed. Comment out the imagename or the display code, or replace it with an alternative image, or put an image with some 'non-free image removed'-text in there. As a follow up, an attempt should be made to tell the editor who included the image there. If the editor persists in putting the image there (for whatever reason, including not understanding what the problem is) then alternatives may be in order. If it leaves the image orphaned, then other rules on the image start to apply. I would not go into revdel, page deletions or oversight until there are real problems e.g. in terms of copyright claims or BLP issues.

I think that the main problem is in the term 'delete' - 'I deleted your image' and 'I deleted the image you display on your page' .. the former meaning to remove the file, the latter that you deleted the code that makes the image display, while the file itself is not deleted - still both are deletions. I'm also afraid that many angry editors mainly get angry because the latter is done, and the former is understood. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 05:53, 12 February 2012 (UTC)