Wikipedia talk:Notability (music)

What's the deal with charting?

Okay, this is really getting to me. Why do people still think a song or single needs to chart to have it's article? Nowhere in the guidelines does it say a song needs to chart to be probably. All it says that songs that have charted are "probably notable", not that it needs to, but too many times I see a song article get redirected to the album or proposed for deletion all because it didn't chart, even if it's reasonably detailed. This is really ridiculous and needs to be sorted out. I know I sound ranty, but it's just annoying. I mean, if the song article is detailed enough, why should anyone care if the song charted or not? Kokoro20 (talk) 19:03, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Satisfying any one of the accepted criteria should indicate notability. If anyone is saying that a non-charting single cannot be notable, they're wrong. Being 'reasonably detailed' is great but that detail needs to come from reliable sources which need to be cited in the article for many editors to accept its notability.--Michig (talk) 19:18, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

RFC : Notability of foreign language works

A proposal that : As this is the English Wikipedia, and the primary users of this wiki are English speakers

Works which are in a foreign language

must have one of

• a) coverage in English language sources
• b) significant charting/sales/airtime/tours in markets which are primarily (or significantly) English speaking
• c) a higher standard of notability in foreign language sources, indicating that the work is likely of lasting value and interest.

(Basically, do we need an article on every Scandanavian/Korean/Indian/Japanese/Etc pop star and song? Those interested in that artist are likely to be using the applicable language wikipedia in any case. Works that would be of interest to those who are not using the applicable language wiki are covered by a-c

Gaijin42 (talk) 17:17, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't make any difference what language the work is in - having higher requirements because an artist sings in a different language would be ridiculous. It isn't a question of what we 'need'. You shouldn't assume that English-readers are only interested in English-language works.--Michig (talk) 17:52, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I am not assuming that. I am assuming that works which are interesting to even a small minority of English users, would meet a, b, or c as they would have to have some way of even finding out about it.Gaijin42 (talk) 17:55, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Oppose the English Wikipedia covers the world. It's the English Wikipedia only in the sense that the articles are written in English. (The same, is true of the other language encyclopedias -- though they may emphasise a little the topics of their language area, they cover the world also, including the Anglophone countries). What we sometimes have is the difficulty in finding sources, because good sources for some countries are not readily available, but when we do have sources, and people who know enough to use them, they should be included on the same basis as those with English sources. People reading this encyclopedia will, after all, benefit from learning about things elsewhere. DGG ( talk ) 18:43, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree with DGG here. Speaking just as a WP reader, I have heard songs before by may non-English bands and wanted to know more information about them. I'm not a fluent speaker of any language other than English, though, so having the pages on Wikipedia (assuming they're put together properly) is by far the best and easiest way for me to learn about those bands. I do think that there should be at least one English source, even if it's just an amazon link, just to verify that the whole thing isn't entirely made up, but that's more a personal preference and crossing over into WP:BEANS category. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:59, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Oppose It's good to give that area extra thought and a proposal, but I don't think that this particular proposal is a good idea. I think that the extra thought is good because having the sources in a language other the the language of the article makes it very difficult to review the wp:notability of the subject. North8000 (talk) 13:08, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Oppose for the reasons already stated above and WP:BIAS [...though I guess this would still qualify, despite the limited airtime etc...] --MistyMorn (talk) 16:01, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

• Snow Oppose (if there is such a thing). For all the reasons cited above (more or less). There is enough natural bias against such coverage, but we certainly shouldn't increase that to require English sources.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:30, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I concede to SNOW, but would just like to clarify - my RFC was not to require any english sources, but just to require a higher bar of foreign language sources to indicate some lasting notability. Pretty much every mid sized artist or album gets enough coverage now (in their native language) to justify an article under current policy. I was just suggesting that we raise the bar to something other than routine "new album" PR reviews - to get things that were actually significantly recieved or critically reviewed in depth. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:04, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. I understand. My personal view is that the bar should not be raised. Interestingly, we have on the other hand those who !vote at AfDs as though the bar has been lowered for subjects, where the languages of the country do not include English -- or even, as in India, where they do. The thought of those editors seems to be that we should have a lower bar for subjects from such countries -- and presume RS coverage to exist in some form, even though we have not verifiably seen it in any form. I'm not in that camp either, so I guess I sit in the middle between the 2 of you on these issues. Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:23, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Oppose The recent song "Kolaveri Di" is a notable example. It is a Tamil language song with few english words. It has recorded 30 million hits on Youtube but is yet to be charted on bilboards as it is not being sold commercially. It has been translated to Arabic and a Duth Version is also in makes. But, the listeners of this song use English on the Internet and youtube is an english site. So does this Tamil song become Not Noteworthy? Wikishagnik (talk) 21:09, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Contestants in American Idol, and its progeny

I've noticed a spike in articles written on contestants in American Idol, and its progeny (especially outside the US). We now have hundreds of such articles.

Is there a music-specific guideline that applies here? Or do we just follow GNG? I'm especially curious as to those contestants who fall outside the top 3, and who have no coverage outside of their American Idol performing. As interpreted by some, it appears that one could expect that all contestants in American Idol performances (and their progeny) could be considered notable, as such contests are often covered by multiple media articles. Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:27, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I think these articles generally get redirected to the article about the season/series of the show, unless they won the competition or have otherwise gone on to have meaningful careers leading to sufficient coverage to support an article, as several do from each series. I think every time we have one of these series we get a slew of articles created that eventually get redirected. I'm not sure we have a specific guideline, although at a stretch coverage related only to appearing in such a show may be considered to verge on BLP1E territory. I think the 'Idol' format was a British invention by the way.--Michig (talk) 21:47, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I would say that individual singers should not have pages based on WP:BLP1E and should essentially be treated as "minor characters" in their show, until they independently meet GNG/MUSIC guidelines. Such pages should be pruned aggressively. Gaijin42 (talk) 22:58, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

The difficulty is that subsequent media coverage for at least a while afterwards will almost always mention the artist's appearance on the TV show, and some editors will take the position that if the artist would otherwise likely have remained virtually unknown then all such coverage is a direct result of the TV show and as such should be excluded from the usual notability guidelines, even if the coverage is mainly about activities beyond the TV show (e.g. relating to an album release). I think this needs to be treated on a case-by-case basis. It is not appropriate to have numerous separate articles on contestants which describe only their participation in the talent contest; nor it is appropriate to impose a blanket exclusion on separate articles on any contestant who didn't make the finals even if they then go on to have a moderately notable career in music. Contains Mild Peril (talk) 01:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I would think a RS mention for any activity that isnt directly idol related, would count. (later albums etc). The fact that that notability is ultimately traceble back to IA is true of any kind of notability. Tom Cruise's latest exploits are ultimately traceable back to risky business and top gun, but you cant say thats all BLP1E. However, things related to idol compilations, tours etc, should count as BLP1E Gaijin42 (talk) 19:22, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

On the basis of the above, I've nominated for AfD a few articles relating to contestants who: a) didn't place in the top 3, and b) didn't engage in other activities (e.g., appropriate albums/tours) or attract other coverage that would pass our notability requirements.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:23, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I think any candidate who qualifies for the final phase (Top 13 in AMerican Idol, Top 10 in DSDS, etc) of the competition should qualify as a notable reality television star. Of course WP:BLP is effectively applied here since any candidate at must have least one source that supports at least one statement. Kingjeff (talk) 05:14, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for joining the conversation, King. Question -- Given that we consider one notable if he "Has won or been nominated for a major music award, such as a Grammy, Juno, Mercury, Choice or Grammis award", and if he "Has won or placed in a major music competition", why would you think that Top 10/Top 13/etc. would be most fitting here?--Epeefleche (talk) 05:23, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

The reason is because within this specific competition, there is a distinct difference between the final phase and all the previous phases. The final phase tends to draw more national media coverage than the previous rounds. I'm not sure how many of you are aware of this. It states "For contestants, it has been decided that only finalists should qualify for their own article based on their participation in the show. Semi-finalists who are not otherwise notable are redirected to their season's article." Kingjeff (talk) 05:48, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

That's interesting. But this would seem to be perhaps the more relevant page when it comes to stating what the notability criteria are. And that seems to be a rather moribund wikiproject, with very few contributors ever (only 2 editors made more than 10 edits ever on that page, and none made more than 7 edits on its talk page), and especially few in the past months.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:01, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I thought everyone in the discussion should be aware of it. However, I do disagree that WikiProjects should have the final say over policy. Kingjeff (talk) 06:10, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Good point and question in the next discussion below. Criterion 9 states "Has won or placed in a major music competition." How would "placed" apply to the Pop Idol franchise? As I mentioned above, I think the Top 10 (in Germany), Top 13 (in United States) and so on would be considered "placed". Kingjeff (talk) 03:26, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Criterion #9 of WP:MUSICBIO

"Has won or placed in a major music competition." How would "placed" apply to the Junior Eurovision Song Contest? Cheers. – Kosm1fent 06:15, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Names

Why are some artists listed with their nicknames, while others are listed with their real name? What is the standard naming? See Ivan Shopov and Federico Ágreda, versus Gridlok and Deadmau5, for example. Gravitoweak (talk) 00:19, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

That's not an issue of notability. The relevant policy is wp:AT. Further guidance is at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies), but that is secondary to the policy. LeadSongDog come howl! 04:51, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Proposed modification to Others category

For Musicians outside Mass media traditions I believe the following set of rules are quite unhelpful and impractical Specifically the rule that states "5.Is frequently covered in publications devoted to a notable sub-culture". Errr... What exactly is a publication of subculture? The US is the only country that has commercial media specificallly for subcultures. In India traditional musicians dont rely on magazines or journals for establishing their work but instead rely on recognition amongst peers, critics and listeners. They tend to scoff at self promotion or even publicity. They believe that the responsibility of educating and publishing any literature about music is the specific responsibility of students (academic not artistic), scholars and historians. For all of the above any attempt to setup reputable magazines or litterature in this field meets with failure. I would like to instead draw attention to the concept of patrons. Most musicians in history (even european musicians) were known for their patrons (including kings, royal families etc.) In India this holds true. I would suggest that notability for classical musicians should instead include (1) awards and recognitions won (2) notable events to which they are invited to perform and (3) notable critics (ummm... notably criticised is a better word). Wikishagnik (talk) 21:47, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

By "publication of subculture" I think the authors want to accept "underground" publications, i.e. publications that may not be covered by general reference sources. Of course there is a lot of this in the U.S. but it stems from European traditions of publications that might not have been acceptable by censors who wanted to control information (just think of the enormous amount of underground publications that existed in formerly Communist countries in Eastern Europe). So even though a person might not make, e.g. the New York Times, they might be found in numerous publications that used to be circulated among fans and adherents. As a recent discussion argued, the mere existence of one award is not enough for a person to be notable, and I believe if a person's only claim to fame is having a patron, that too is not enough. If they are already notable, then this information can be folded into their article. -- kosboot (talk) 23:42, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the response but I don't think you understand my dilemma completely. These are some of the problems I face

1. Their is no reputed journal of Hindustani Classical Music. Their is no magazine or printed Journal which will meet the Wikipedia standards. In absence of these there are a couple of websites that discuss about these artists but I don't think Wikipedia encourages that
2. The awards I am talking about are National Awards that offer a lifetime of benefits to the recipients. A suitable comparison would be the medal of honor. Does a medal of honor recipient require to be mentioned by reputed journals to be mentioned on Wikipedia (O.k. I Know that medal of honor is not given to artists, but the awards I am talking about like the Bharat Ratna are lifetime achievement awards given by the government.
3. Some artists like Lata Mangeshkar and even the poet Rabindranath Thakur was never mentioned in any journal in India. A few European and American journals might mention them in the passing. But Lata Mangeshkar has been a Guiness Record Holder and Rabindranath Tagore is Nobel Laureate. My point is that these standards cannot be used for all artists all over the world. In most places around the world artists are better known from their reputation than their presence on billboards or journals Wikishagnik (talk) 10:03, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Comment: I share the sort of concerns that Wikishagnik is raising. Especially about publication discrepancies in different contexts. Language issues aside, my experience suggests that it's easier to find citable material for a contemporary British composer than for an Italian one (here saved mainly by allmusic.com). Such discrepancies may arguably end up tilting content in certain directions even within articles. For instance, it might appear that the musician in this stub is primarily a crossover artist, whereas in reality that's just one aspect of his work which also focuses very much on extending the artistic traditions of his gharana. Citation availability may affect content in subtle ways: although more balanced, this article shows some signs of a similar distortion. To tackle these issues, I feel it's important for Wikipedia guidelines (and their implementation) to remain flexible and sensitive to context. Otherwise, "We Will Rock You" risks taking on an unintended meaning. My two pebbles, MistyMorn (talk) 14:26, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Comment: Thanks, Wikishagnik, for explaining it better. I see it in a complex way now. I still think that verifiable information is necessary, but I accept that different cultural practices might mandate a special response. You can always create the article, and then see what administrators say about it. I've never been to India (for example), so I have a hard time imagining a popular performer who has absolutely nothing written about them. But I'll be willing to follow what happens when a few articles are created with a dearth of the typical documentation one expects. -- kosboot (talk) 16:41, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

While I am sensitive to systemic bias problems, I don't see how we can do away with the needs for reliable sources. Otherwise, how would we (random editors who've never heard the music) tell the difference between someone who is legitimately "notable" and someone who is just trying to promote themselves on Wikipedia? At a bare minimum, we would need an article that verified that they had been a recipient of the medal; that article itself should have information. If it didn't--i.e., if all we had was proof that a medal was awarded (like "Name: Awarded X on this year") how could we even write the article? Where would the information come from? And what would be the value in having an article with only one sentence in it--wouldn't it be better to create an article titled, "List of Prize X recipients"? Qwyrxian (talk) 02:16, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

OK, I take the arguments of Mistymom, Kosboot and Qwyrxian, Thanks for reading through my suggestions but maybe I have more work cutout for me. There is a Page about Padmabhushan awards but does not mention the year 1993, the year when the artist I am interested in. I will have to do some more research on that. I dont mind all the work. Its just that I find it unfair that artists who do not enjoy the same literary cover of established European or American artists should be at a disadvantage. But I am not loosing hope. I will get this article posted. Oh, BTW I think Qwyrxian is confusing my artist with some wannabe's but trust me that's not the case. As I mentioned in my earlier argument the artist is not printed about, not that he is not recognised or respected, In India of course Wikishagnik (talk) 19:36, 30 January 2012 (UTC)