Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)

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Cricket[edit]

The current notability criteria for Cricket reads as follows:

A cricket figure is presumed notable if he or she

1. has appeared in at least one major cricket match since 1697 as a player or umpire

2. has appeared in at least one ICC World Cup Qualifier match since 2005, or in an ICC Trophy final prior to 2005, as a player or umpire

3. has appeared in at least one World Cricket League match of Division Five status or above since 2007 as a player or umpire

Points 2 and 3 above are quite specific and easy to follow. My difficulty lies with the phrase "major cricket match" in point one. This is too imprecise and open to interpretation. I believe we need to be much clear-cut in our list of what sorts of matches fit within this phrase. This is currently a point of contention in the discussion of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Victor Clube.

A current suggestion is that the phrase refers to "first-class, List A and Twenty20 cricket" matches. If that's the case, then let's state that specifically. If there are other match types that need to be added then let's include them as well. Perry Middlemiss (talk) 22:13, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

The term "major cricket" is currently defined on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Cricket page at WP:CRIC#MAJOR. So the work has basically been done. — Perry Middlemiss (talk) 22:26, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

  • Support Expanding the definition to list what "major" cricket matches are. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 12:06, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Support. Seems sensible and consistent. Johnlp (talk) 12:14, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
I've been bold and changed the link in the current wording to point to WP:CRIC#MAJOR. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 12:06, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. I got distracted by other things and have only just back back to this. Looks good. Perry Middlemiss (talk) 20:49, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Notability for teams[edit]

Is there a guideline for when teams are notable? Oiyarbepsy (talk) 15:30, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Notability (sports)#Applicable policies and guidelines says: "It is not intended that this guideline should apply to sports clubs and teams; for these the specific notability guideline is WP:ORG." A WikiProject for a specific sport may have guidelines like Wikipedia:WikiProject Football#Notability. PrimeHunter (talk) 15:41, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

FIFA and soccer international games[edit]

Why should FIFA be the only international association that sanctions international games? In other words, why should we limit notability to athletes who participated only in FIFA sanctioned international games, as opposed to all international games of national A teams?

We know that:

  1. National teams have played before FIFA existed (1904). As a matter of fact we have in wikipedia a slew of articles that have international games prior to 1904.
  2. National teams have played even among one another, although the international matches were not FIFA sanctioned.
  3. In order to be eligible for the national team, a very careful selection has been made, so this would not greatly increase the number of players who will need to be notable.

So let's think about making the following replacement:

... Players who have played in, managers who have managed in, and referees who have officiated any FIFA sanctioned senior international match... '

with

... Players who have played in, managers who have managed in, and referees who have officiated any senior international match... '

Thanks, --Bunjaktorollak (talk) 19:24, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

FIFA is the worldwide authority for organised football. Other authorities (such as the N.F.-Board) are not considered official by the IOC or wider world and their member teams are mainly non-recognised countries which also don't have formal selection criteria for players. For example, Sealand national football team has had many celebrities play for them in tournaments. See also Non-FIFA international football. Nanonic (talk) 19:46, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. FIFA is currently recognized by the IOC, but before 1904 FIFA did not exist.
  1. How do you solve notability for prior to 1904 international games? Can we reword the sentence for pre-1904 games?
  2. What about games that are currently scheduled by national teams outside of the FIFA calendar? If a player is selected for those games, but no longer is selected, the current wording would not allow for this player to be included.
  3. The non-recognized countries are not necessarily privy of a formal selection criteria. For instance Kosovo is allowed to play international games only if they are amateurial, but if you look at the Kosovo roster, you'll realize that very few players are amateurs: they all play in professinal leagues, or they are young promises, who will soon play in professional leagues. This entails a problem: for instance an editor, duly insists in removing from wikipedia Alban Bunjaku, who is a young player and hasn't played in professional leagues at all, but has played with Kosovo. Kosovo does have a national team in 2014 (and so did England before 1904), but players of neither team for the respective players (before 2014 and currently), would be eligible to be noticed in wikipedia. Can we make a rewording for certain national teams in the policy, for instance for national teams which predate FIFA, as well as for teams, such as Kosovo or Catalonia, which are allowed to play friendly international games by FIFA? --Bunjaktorollak (talk) 20:13, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Prior to 1904, there were very few international matches. Most of the major ones were between the Home Nations, and those were officially sanctioned by their FAs for the most part I believe. As for those that are allowed to play in friendly international games, then the guideline already permits that as it is worded right now, I think. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 20:25, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Here's my answer to Bunjaktorollak's question: why should we? The purpose of NSPORTS isn't to set up a back door for otherwise non-notable athletes to qualify for articles, but to set forth circumstances under which athletes would likely meet the GNG. Teams which play exhibition matches (in any sport) often load up their rosters with fringe players who wouldn't otherwise appear on the regular rosters, and if those fringe players haven't managed to be discussed in reliable sources as per the GNG, then there's no reason to have articles on them. If Bunjaktorollak would care to demonstrate that there are a lot of players slipping through the cracks, who do meet the GNG, then I agree that the guideline needs revision. Otherwise, this a solution in search of a problem. Ravenswing 21:04, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Playing in any non FIFA-sanctioned game does not make you notable. As Luke says, before 1904 and the forming of FIFA there were very few games. The guideline is fine as it is. GiantSnowman 22:06, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Also note that this proposal is almost certainly linked to this comment and related AFD. Sigh. GiantSnowman 22:09, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
  • It certainly is linked and Alban Bunjaku will fall in the cracks because of a wikipolicy that I find incorrect in its exclusion. So will Mentor Zhdrella (already in Italian and Albanian wikipedias) and Kushtrim Mushica (already in the Italian wikipedia), who keep being deleted. The policy, as is, is excluding several national team players to be in the English Wikipedia. Sighing is not necessarily good logic. --Bunjaktorollak (talk) 22:42, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Alban Bunjaku will "fall in the cracks" not because the guidelines are wrong, but because he doesn't qualify for an article. Show us some evidence that he meets the GNG, and votes will change. Otherwise, I'm adamantly opposed to any watering down of the guideline for no better reason than there's a player you like who wouldn't meet it. Ravenswing 22:49, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
The priority should be to demonstrate a subject meets WP:GNG, particularly when they fail a subject-specific guideline. Hack (talk) 02:40, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
The examples I gave don't fail NFOOTY: all three of them have played for Kosovo. The wiki guideline is worded wickedly though: it says that the FIFA would need to sanction as if its vetting is necessary to confer legitimacy to NT A games: my opinion is that we don't need the FIFA part. However even if we accept the FIFA part, Kosovo's games are allowed by FIFA as per this source. No one has so far given a plausible explanation as to why the Kosovo players shouldn't be included in wikipedia because of the current guideline. Bunjaktorollak (talk) 02:55, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
The definition of an international senior match is generally held to be what FIFA call a "Tier 1 International Match", also known as an "A International" match. This is a match between two FIFA member associations. As Kosovo is not a FIFA member association, any match would be a "Tier 2" or "Tier 3" match.[1] Hack (talk) 03:17, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
It's been stated more than once, actually; you just don't accept the explanation. Your privilege, of course, but Wikipedia is run by consensus, and so far consensus seems to be running unanimously against your position. Ravenswing 07:06, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
  • For what it's worth, I'd support a change in the wording from a "senior international match" to a "tier 1 international match, as defined by FIFA", or something similar, just to prevent any confusion. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 07:57, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
  • No objection here to any such change. Ravenswing 11:38, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
  • I concur with this proposed language clarification. -- Jkudlick tcs 13:29, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
  • I agree with this clarification as well. CRwikiCA talk 17:47, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Ping didn't work but I saw this on my watchlist - I am fine with this proposed tightening of the wording, however when/if introduced it should include a link to a definition of a 'tier 1' game i.e. any FIFA-sactioned match between two senior international teams. GiantSnowman 15:16, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

  • I had every intention of adding that link in. I'll go and make the change now. :) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 15:19, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Gymnastics[edit]

I propose including junior athletes who win at the highest international level to be included in this guideline. The main reason for this edit is that with extreme consistency, articles on junior athletes who win prestigious international junior competitions who are nominated for AFD, with WP:NSPORTS as the rationale, survive AFD by meeting WP:GNG. Note I wrote the initial WP:GYMNAST guideline, and I held the strictest view on exclusion during the discussions. The guideline did not get much discussion here, but one member of the gymnastics project complained that the guideline was too restrictive especially for junior athletes. Note that in gymnastics, professional competitions are age restricted, like figure skating, and quite often athletes in the junior ranks are more notable than their senior counter parts. The gymnastics community is small, so there unfortunately was little input from them so I didn't want one voice to make the guideline too lax (Since by definition WP:NSPORT guidelines need to error on the side of strictness). However, after reading multiple AFDs, for example this one it has become clear that the initial input from that user is at least partially correct. Note that the guideline is still very strict. Only allowing winners of elite international junior competitions. A survey of the pacific rim individual junior champions shows that all of them meet WP:GNG at the time of their pacific rim championship win. This addition is necessary because these athletes are going to AFD when they are clearly not AFD worthy, even a lazy google news search would have shown these athletes to pass WP:GNG. MATThematical (talk) 23:26, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Referees- criteria for notability[edit]

I contributed to an AfD discussion on a person, Euan Anderson, who referees in Scotland. It made me wonder about the high standard that is required for notability under the WP:NFOOTBALL criteria currently which is that they need to have officiated at a Tier 1 international fixture. Looking at List of association football referees there are a large number of articles on people where the subjects are referees that are not currently on FIFA's lists, nor appear likely to be notable under WP:GNG. Are these all potentially articles that should be considered for deletion (unless there is notability for other reasons)? Many countries have up to 20 officials on FIFA’s list (i.e. male referees and assistants for association football). [2] In Scotland for example there are many referees registered with the national body- the Scottish Football Association (SFA) but only about 20 people who are currently recognised as refereeing at the top level in Scotland (known as category 1), which means they cover fully professional games (i.e. teams in cup and league competitions)[3]. Could a less stringent criteria, such as a category 1 listing with a national sporting body, be applied as criteria for notability to allow wider coverage of referees on Wikipedia? Drchriswilliams (talk) 10:06, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I think referees should be held to a very high standard of notability, because they tend not to get the same type of coverage that athletes get. The requirement for notability in WP:NSPORTS needs to basically guarantee there is WP:GNG coverage. So yes, if it seems like there is a bunch of referees that don't meet WP:GNG they could be nominated for deletion. NSPORTS is not a loophole to get around GNG, it is meant to prevent the deletion of athlete articles who very likely meet WP:GNG if considerable effort was undertaken to look for the appropriate sources. In general WP:NSPORTS should be stricter than WP:GNG to prevent it being used as a way to circumvent WP:GNG requirements. MATThematical (talk) 17:29, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
Exactly. I see no reason why we should seek "wider coverage" of referees; our task is to determine what level of involvement is likely to guarantee referees a GNG pass. Since, in my observation, it is vanishingly seldom (and generally only as the result of an infamous call on the field) that they get any coverage at all beyond routine match mentions explicitly debarred by WP:ROUTINE, I'd suggest we don't trouble ourselves with any guideline at all specifically covering game officials beyond the GNG. Ravenswing 23:15, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually why are any referees at all considered notable on this project? Do all refs who have officiated at a Tier 1 international fixture meet WP:GNG? There is no sport in the United States, at it's highest league (e.g. MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL) that has all of it's referees get non-routine coverage. Do refs get more none routine coverage in football or rugby? I'm inclined to delete anything mentioning refs on the project page. What do others think? Is this worth starting an rfc for?MATThematical (talk) 03:55, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Referees in football (soccer) and rugby do perhaps get more coverage than the other sports you have listed, for different reasons. The outcome of the encounters of sports teams aren't just determined by physical prowess but whether rules are transgressed; when there are lots of people moving at speed and bumping into each other the performance of the referee does assume importance. In football some matches may have only a few scoring opportunities and the referee's history of decision making is often discussed by fans and commentators, especially where decisions are seen to have been controversial (and video playback is often available to fans afterwards but not to assist the match officials during the game). There referees do get a significant amount of media attention, especially at the upper levels. In rugby the ability of the referee to maintain discipline and keep the match moving is often scrutinised by commentators and fans, although the introduction of video analysis to assist the referees in charge of top-level matches has meant there is less controversy around decisions made during these games. Drchriswilliams (talk) 12:42, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
I don't think anyone claims the names of officials are never mentioned in the press. I just don't feel -- and believe it's the general consensus -- that except under extraordinary circumstances it rises beyond the level of routine match coverage explicitly debarred by WP:ROUTINE from supporting the notability of the subject. Certainly the coverage of the BBC's soccer pages mentions officials in passing, if at all, for example. Would you, perhaps, care to post links of coverage of officials, from reliable sources, you feel rise above routine match coverage, by way of example of your point? Ravenswing 13:52, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
I guess my point is that the relationship between the match officials and the media is more complex than between players and the media. I would cite a few newspaper articles that explore this: In 2009 the SFA attempts to explain decisions without having refs in spotlight, the guardian consider post-match interviews with officials and interview form 2009 with a very prominent referee (who was releasing an autobiography). Drchriswilliams (talk) 15:30, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
Not the most powerful of examples, I'd suggest. The first link doesn't mention match officials at all. The second does so only in passing (at least I infer that the names dropped were, indeed, match officials). The third? It's a piece on an official who just came out with an autobiography, who attempted suicide because he was gay, who is a presenter of a TV show, and who was the referee of a game so infamous as to merit its own Wikipedia article (in which article he is, nonetheless, not mentioned) ... the very type of "extraordinary circumstances" I've cited. Nigel Owens has an article not because he's passed some measure of NSPORTS bar, but because he plainly meets the GNG with flying colors. Ravenswing 14:04, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
The first two links were provided to give examples of why match officials might be deliberately left out of interviews with journalists, including specific efforts that sporting organisations might put in to try to keep referees out of the media spotlight. And yes, the third link was a deliberate example of the sort of person who is off the scale in terms of notability, such that significant media exposure seems inevitable (even when his involvement in a major match controversy was not in fact related to his refereeing performance). Drchriswilliams (talk) 21:13, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
The previous guideline was officiating in a single tier 1 match. If you randomly sampled 20 officials who ONLY officiated ONE match, would at least 19 of them meet WP:GNG? I doubt that officials need to me mentioned at all, but if they do, can we agree that a tigher guideline than officiating one tier 1 match needs to be in place. If so what guideline would have nearly all of it's satisfy-ers also satisfy WP:GNG? MATThematical (talk) 22:37, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
I agree that sports leagues have a powerful incentive to keep referees out of the media spotlight, and generally succeed in doing so. Where I differ from you, I believe, is in finishing that with "... and that's why referees don't generally meet the GNG, and therefore shouldn't be considered presumptively notable." Ravenswing 00:33, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Perfect summary. It would be like saying, there are important FBI and CIA agents who don't satisfy WP:GNG but are really really important. They deserve pages. My opinion is that while WP:GNG may at some level distinguish people who are important from others, it is mainly in place so that only people who can be written about objectively with credible independent sources have pages. It is more about protecting the content and the article than it is about importance. It is not our job at wikipedia to figure who is important or not. We just want good, factual, encyclopedic articles written about our subjects. If refs do not get the coverage needed to write such articles they shouldn't by default get pages written about them. MATThematical (talk) 05:06, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Even if we were to grant that many tier 1 officials get non routine coverage in the press, that doesn't mean that all tier one officials, especially ones that only officiated one game should get mentioned here. Only if almost every tier 1 official gets significant coverage should officials make it into NSPORT. This is not to say there aren't many notable officials, just that they need to be judged solely based on WP:GNG. MATThematical (talk) 20:34, 19 January 2015 (UTC)