Wikipedia talk:Red link

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Contradiction: YES redlink to "article that can be created" and NO "article creation guide", so which is it?[edit]

The gist of the style guideline is that redlinks to articles that should be created should exist. But then there is this non-sequitor that states the exact opposite:

"Although red links to notable topics are permitted in lists and other articles, do not overlink in the mainspace solely for use as an article creation guide. Instead, editors are encouraged to consider WP:Write the article first."

Which is correct? they can't both be correct at the same time. No "article creation guide" contradicts the entire article and it says to NOT create redlinks first. It reads like spam to get people to read the essay WP:Write the article first. It also is undue weight to have a contradiction in the second paragraph. Can it be reworded so it does not contradict the entirety of the guideline. See Talk:Eddie Foy, Sr. and join the discussion. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 03:42, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I have moved the contradictory paragraph here for the discussion and demoted the essay to the see also section. It appears to be a dissenting opinion embedded in the guideline

"Red links are frequently present in lists and sometimes in disambiguation pages or templates. Although red links to notable topics are permitted in lists and other articles, do not overlink in the mainspace solely for use as an article creation guide. Instead, editors are encouraged to consider WP:Write the article first, or to use WikiProjects or user spaces to keep track of unwritten articles."
I don't see the conflict or why the text needed to be removed from the guideline. The text is stating that we should not create a bunch of red links simply because we want those articles created. Like the lead of the guideline currently states, "A red link, like red link example, signifies a link to a page that is either non-existent or deleted. It is useful in editing article text to create a red link to indicate that a page will be created soon or that an article should be created for the topic because the subject is notable and verifiable." We should only create redlinks for WP:Notable topics that are likely to have viable Wikipedia articles. Like WP:Notable states, not all WP:Notable topics need a Wikipedia article; some fit well in an existing article. Flyer22 (talk) 18:00, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Since the content you dispute is guideline material, it should have stayed in the guideline while you dispute the matter on the talk page. The note at the top of the guideline states: "Any substantive edit to this page should reflect consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on the talk page." And I'm not sure what you mean by WP:Due weight, since that policy only applies to Wikipedia articles. Flyer22 (talk) 18:07, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
I agree with Flyer22, there is no contradiction between "You are allowed to create redlinks" and "...but you are urged to write the article first." BMK (talk) 22:24, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

How about putting 'if a dispute arises about the existence of a red link, consider its notability and write a draft'? (Linking to the Article Wizard.) That has helped me when putting red links into articles. (Although it does nothing for habituating people to red links in articles, and puts the onus onto the person who wants the red link.) I think that the exhortation in the nutshell to only remove red links if you think Wikipedia should not have an article on that subject should be reiterated in the lead. It gets a little lost in the 'how to deal with existing red links' section. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 20:45, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Given what we say about "One study conducted in 2008 showed that red links helped Wikipedia grow. Follow-up work on this indicated that the creation of red links prevents new pages from being orphaned from the start", I do not think it would be helpful to place any onus upon editors creating redlinks, beyond advising them to abide by article naming restrictions and their good faith conviction that the redlinked topic is notable per WP:N. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 19:15, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

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Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ), do you have anything to state regarding what I stated above? What Beyond My Ken (BMK) stated above? There should be something advising editors not to unnecessarily overlink when it comes to red links, similar to the WP:Overlink guideline. For example, the lead currently states, "Red links should not be made to every chapter in a book nor should they be made to deleted articles." Flyer22 (talk) 20:24, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Personal names[edit]

"Red links to personal names should be avoided particularly when the name is reported in a context which might cause readers to hold a low or critical opinion of the named individual."

This is a little confusing as written. Is a "personal name" the first name of a person as opposed to a surname or a family name? Should it just read "person's name". It also mentions that the name might match up with a sex offender of the same name. Why would we have a list of non-notable sex offenders? I don't think we need to NOT link people's names, we just need to remind people when they create an article to properly disambiguate the person and check the "What links here" button. People's names are probably the most common reason to create a redlink. I do it all the time to see if someone is already in Wikipedia. Otherwise every reader that is curious has to create a red link to see if that person has an article. Almost every list I see is a sea of red names. I have been working on some lists of award winners for over 5 years. See International Polo Cup (redlink version) vs International Polo Cup (no redlink version), how would I know who has a biography and who doesn't unless they are linked. It makes more sense to just NOT have a list of non notable sex-offenders. Does this make sense? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 07:00, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

would you like" names of individuals?" The difficulty of wording policy or guidelines precisely is one of the reason why I regard policy and guidelines as descriptive of what we do. It is the examples that make the guideline, and the exemplification in actual cases that best interprets it. DGG ( talk ) 09:58, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
I agree with RAN's suggestion of "person's name" - "individuals" is less plain language. The issue with red linking a name and walking away is that next year someone may create an article for a person with same name who has become notable - as a sex offender, or CEO or Olympic athlete. This creates a misdirect, which would confuse readers. For example, a list of candidates for mayor of Toronto linked a minor candidate named Kevin Richardson. Even if the link had been to "Kevin Richardson (Toronto politician)", there would be a significant risk that when the article is created, it is about a different Kevin Richardson who has run for office. Linking a name and expecting someone else to create the article is a bad idea. Ground Zero | t 12:23, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
I'll try your wording adjustment. Of course we ought not make lists of people with borderline notability for something negative, and I think there's also a consensus to not include redlinks in lists of people of a specific cultural group. The problem of eds. filling in redlinks inappropriately is related to the problem of eds. changing redirects to something inappropriate--most of what I have seen is promotional, not abuse. I think there's been a discussion of technical measures. The use of name qualifiers would help--the likelihood of an example like just mentioned is very much lower than without them, but our current naming policy is to not use them if not necessary. I personally do not agree with that, and think we should follow the practice of some other WPs that use such qualifiers routinely, but this is one of the things I've given up arguing for. DGG ( talk ) 17:07, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
@ Ground Zero. The hypothetical problem is that someone in the future will expand the current list of seven sex offenders and they may match a name somewhere in Wikipedia. Who don't we just more closely monitor the sex offender list for BLP problems. It is so much easier than deleting or not creating hundreds of thousands of redlinks of people's names. You can make the same argument to ban bluelinks since they are just as likely to be improperly disambiguated with a name on the existing sex offender list. Just monitor the sex offender list for BLP problems. I just did that recently for the scientific misconduct page, where people were adding in their enemies without any context. This was a bluelink problem: Jimmy Wales was on the Terry Gross show and she asked him why the name of her producer linked to a fictional mass murder, he said it was improperly disambiguated and fixed it. The lesson, simple names such as Danny Miller should lead to a disambiguation page, and almost all already do. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 20:50, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Instead of listing all the bad things like sex worker and rapists, we just need to comply with BLP.

Caution should be used when creating a redlink to a person's name. All the rules that apply to WP:BLP equally apply to redlinked names. When creating a biography from a redlink be sure to use "what links here" to make sure all the incoming links are properly disambiguated.

--Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 21:38, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

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Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ), DGG and Ground Zero, I just read the "A redlink to a person's name should be avoided" part, and I was confused. I was tempted to alter that text and/or start a discussion about the matter here at this talk page, before I saw that there is already a section about it. Why was I confused? Why was I tempted to change it? That's because the text reads contradictory to me, since, if the person is WP:Notable, then it's common that the person's name should be linked. It's like the WP:Red link guideline is encouraging the creation of a blue link for all notable topics except people. Flyer22 (talk) 13:46, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

From you guys' discussion, it seems that the text is trying to state that the link shouldn't simply be about the name; it should be about the link covering the person, not the person's name. But the "A redlink to a person's name should be avoided" text does not express that well. Flyer22 (talk) 13:49, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Nah, going by what Ground Zero stated in his "12:23, 5 February 2015 (UTC)" post above, it's not even about "it should be about the link covering the person, not the person's name." Flyer22 (talk) 13:53, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

I restored the text that was removed because I see a couple of editors expressing a concern that it's not the best wording, but no consensus that it should be removed, or what should replace it. "A redlink to a person's name should be avoided, particularly when the name is used in a context which might cause readers to hold a low or critical opinion of the named individual" I'm not seeing an issue with this wording, particularly because it keeps this guideline in line with the BLP policy, which most redlinks aren't directly affected by. Personal names also are far from unique in most circumstances; editors will create wikilinks to a name without checking if it's the same person, even if that article already exists, so care needs to be taken when dealing with BLP subjects. - Aoidh (talk) 16:35, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

query[edit]

At what point are "future article" red links in an article excessive?

Note Aurelia Greene has red links for 14 articles not yet created for "New York Legislatures" spanning from 185 to 198.

Should a limit of some sort be placed on such mechanical lists of non-existent articles? Or is it likely that since the articles will eventually exist that we should populate biographies with all potential future articles and my amusement is unwarranted? Collect (talk) 20:30, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

That example is just plain bad writing. Even if they were blue links we wouldn't/shouldn't individually list and link the 15 specific numbered legislatures she served in. The fact that 14 of them are redlinks is not the problem. The line should be edited to read: "She was a member of the New York State Assembly from 1982 to 2009." I haven't done that now so as not to destroy the example. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 23:57, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Except User:Kraxler is in fact creating those very articles in chronological order, so it is best to keep them. See for instance 184th New York State Legislature to see how much research goes into each article. You can see where it takes weeks of research to create a single article. While the lede can cay "She was a member of the New York State Assembly from 1982 to 2009", linking to to the session summary is an excellent idea in the body. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 16:49, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
Well, it has been standard practice to add blue links to all congresses they were sitting in at US congressmen's bios. I just followed the pattern with state legislators. One of the main basic features of Wikipedia are exactly the blue links which lead the reader to interesting/important context. "She was a member of the NYSA from xxxx to yyyy" will never provide any context. The blue links show what happened in the Legislature while the member was acting there. And yes, there are now 7 blue links and 8 red links at Aurelia Greene, but look at Charles J. Hewitt, the first man to serve 30 years in the New York State Senate, there are 30 blue legislature links, for the interested reader to explore. And if there are no blue links, people tag articles as WP:UNDERLINKed... Kraxler (talk) 12:25, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

mobile Wikipedia[edit]

Please provide more information (in this article) about how en.m.wikipedia.org handles redlinks. 71.178.51.189 (talk) 18:36, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Changes needed[edit]

Nav boxes NO red links[edit]

  • "Red links generally are not included ... in navigational boxes" Why is that? Of course they should be. How is the reader to know whether the article exists and needs brackets to make a blue link, or we need to have an article on that person. This should be removed. What do you think? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 16:58, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ), I don't agree with this removal of text you made. Just like the WP:See also section, WP:NAVBOXES are meant to direct readers to existing articles, not indicate that an article should be created. What the text you removed is stating is that a topic that does not have a Wikipedia article should not be listed in the WP:NAVBOX; so your statement of "if it is important to have the name or place in a navbox" is irrelevant since the topics should not be listed there if they have no Wikipedia articles.
I will likely start a WP:RfC on this for input. Generally, I am against significant/huge changes being made to a Wikipedia policy or guideline without significant discussion. Flyer22 (talk) 19:20, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
A redlink indicates that an article very probably should be created. The mere existence of the name in the succession box indicates this by itself, since we use these boxes (or should be using them) only for positions that are very likely to imply notability. DGG ( talk ) 19:26, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
DGG, are you arguing that we should have red links in the navboxes? If so, the guideline already addresses the one exception to red links being in the navboxes -- the succession box aspect. Otherwise, they should not be there. Including them there doesn't even align with the WP:NAVBOX essay. Flyer22 (talk) 19:33, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

A redlink to a person's name should be avoided[edit]

  • I still think this needs to be removed "A redlink to a person's name should be avoided" it still means to NEVER create a redlink, and is being used that way in arguments to remove all redlinks in Wikipedia articles. Some people just hate redlinks in articles that they create. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 17:04, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
"Some people just hate redlinks in articles that they create." While that may or may not be true, that has nothing to do with the relevance of personal names being used as redlinks. Would you mind giving a link to one of these arguments to remove all redlinks in Wikipedia articles that cites "a redlink to a person's name should be avoided"? Without context I don't really think that's the case, because that seems like a generalization that has no relevance to the merits of the actual content. - Aoidh (talk) 17:27, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
Note: As seen in the #Personal names section above, I recently commented about this. Flyer22 (talk) 17:08, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Clarification of 'likelihood'[edit]

As I recently have had two reversions from the same person on the interpretation of 'likelihood', could we please clarify this in the guideline? I think that red links should be created when they link to valid titles - if it happens that they can be covered in other areas of the encyclopedia, then that is what redirects are for. I think the 'likelihood' is being confused into 'it's unlikely that articles will exist, because there are few people on wikipedia to make them' or 'it's unlikely that articles will exist, because the topic is obscure'. I don't think that these are valid arguments, because Wikipedia is a work in progress, and lots of notable, verifiable, and valid topics are obscure if you are outside the field that they crop up in. I would like to see some clarification of what is likely on the article guideline page - I tried to add it in (my first link) but was reverted. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 21:14, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

You can go ahead and mention my username; I don't mind. Yes, I reverted you at the Yaoi article. And I stated in that revert, "And how do we know they are WP:Notable? Provide proof on the article talk page. WP:Notable is also clear that not every notable topic should have its own article." You have posted this as your proof. I will respond there. But as for validity, creating a red link just because you think that the title is valid is not valid. Too often, an editor will create a red link just because he or she wants to see an article created for that topic, even when that topic is not WP:Notable or should not have a Wikipedia article per what is outlined in the WP:NOPAGE section of the WP:Notable guideline. Then we are left with an article on a non-WP:Notable topic or a WP:Stub for a topic that will very likely never expand beyond a stub. And, yes, like I stated to you in this revert, if the topic is obscure, it is often the case that it should not have a Wikipedia article. Note: I stated "often," not "always." And I know that from several years of editing this site, and seeing various WP:AfDs and the like.
I noted in the #Nav boxes NO red links section above that I will likely be starting a WP:RfC on that particular red link matter. There might be other things to start a WP:RfC on regarding this guideline, since editors are coming here and adding/removing anything they want to/from this guideline as though it's not a WP:Guideline that should typically have WP:Consensus before any significant changes are made to it. Flyer22 (talk) 21:40, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
Flyer, I am not at all clear what it is that you disagree with, here. The user editing from 110.20.234.69 is simply adding that we should judge redlinks based on what articles we should have, rather than based on what we predict will be created. Do you disagree with that? It seems incredibly reasonable, and clearly consistent with what is said elsewhere in the guideline. There's no change, here, just a clarification. On that note, what on earth does "Do not remove red links unless ... there is no article section to validly redirect the topic (see WP:NOPAGE)" mean? Josh Milburn (talk) 15:50, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
@Josh: To your second point, I think the clause about article sections means that a valid red link may be one where the target is a redirect to a section of an article where the notable subject is covered as part of a broader topic. That is the point of WP:NOPAGE. I have attempted to clarify the wording in the guideline. Feel free to tweak further as necessary, although – being a guideline – this point about redirects should probably remain in there unless discussed and consensus achieved to remove it. Of course, where the red link is a redirect, it's very easy to turn it blue by creating the redirect. Wdchk (talk) 16:40, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
Maybe I'm being dim here, but I still have very little idea of you are trying to say. Your new wording literally didn't make sense- "Do not remove red links unless ... a redirect to a section where the subject is covered as part of a broader topic (see WP:NOPAGE)." Also, given that this point was only just added by Flyer, there's no need to get consensus to remove it- I'd say we need consensus to add it. In any case, if it's to stay, it needs to be clearer. I'm sorry if this sounds like a silly request, but could you say in simple English when you believe redlinks should be removed? Josh Milburn (talk) 16:49, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
At this point I should let @Flyer22 speak for herself. My interpretation, however, was that the point about an article section being a valid target for a red link was already in the guideline, per this edit summary. So the sentence you're having a problem with is an attempt at clarification, first by Flyer22, then by me. It's not a substantive change to the guideline, as far as I can see, but I might be wrong. Regarding clarity, I'll have to think further about that. Maybe someone else can help. Wdchk (talk) 17:40, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm none the wiser. How can "an article section being a valid target for a red link"? If it's a redirect, it's not a redlink? Josh Milburn (talk) 17:57, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

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J Milburn, I know that you and the IP have discussed this guideline before, and that the IP contacted you to weigh in on this latest matter. It seems that I don't fully share your and the IP's views of the WP:Red link guideline. I've explained above and here at the Yaoi talk page how I feel about the guideline. You stated, "The user editing from 110.20.234.69 is simply adding that we should judge redlinks based on what articles we should have, rather than based on what we predict will be created. Do you disagree with that?" Yes, I partly disagree with that. I stated when reverting the IP, "obscurity is one of the things to consider; WP:Notability is clear that notability does not guarantee an article." And I stated above, "if the topic is obscure, it is often the case that it should not have a Wikipedia article. Note: I stated 'often,' not 'always.' And I know that from several years of editing this site, and seeing various WP:AfDs and the like." When removing red links, it is often the case that editors are predicting what will be created, and I don't see a problem with that if the editor is using common sense and is taking Wikipedia's notability guidelines into account. I do see a problem with editors simply adding red links because they want an article created, or are hoping some WP:Newbie, who has no idea how to appropriately apply Wikipedia's notability guidelines, will create it. Like I told the IP at the Yaoi talk page, we have more than one Wikipedia notability guideline, including Wikipedia:Notability (events). WP:Secondary sources covering a topic does not automatically mean that the topic is WP:Notable or that it should have its own Wikipedia article.

As for what the WP:NOPAGE aspect that I added (and Wdchk tweaked) means, it means what Wdchk stated it means. And it was already noted in the guideline by the "In general, a red link should be allowed to remain in an article if it links to a term that could plausibly sustain an article, but for which there is no existing candidate article, or article section, under any name." part. I decided to make mention of it more explicit, especially since the IP had re-added the "Do not remove red links unless you are certain that Wikipedia should not have an article on that subject." piece. The IP's edit on that matter made it seem as though the subject should automatically be an article; I wanted to make it clear that the subject might be better served as content placed in an existing article. Flyer22 (talk) 23:00, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

How do we define a red link's 'likelihood' of becoming an article, if not plainly by the subject's notability and verifiability? There are already many warnings in this guideline on when not to create red links. I think that the bar of 'unlikelihood' is being set too low with cautions about obscurity. Dare I mention the other stuff on Wikipedia? A great deal of notable, verifiable, subjects are 'obscure' to someone, but are still very valid, encyclopedic topics. I also think that the concern that there are fewer hands for the work (Not brought up here, but a common media story about Wikipedia these days) is causing people to remove red links - 'what's the likelihood that someone would be interested in making an article on that topic?'.
If stubs are created (which isn't too likely these days, given my experience with the stringency of the articles for creation process... - my drafts typically get assessed as C-class on their entry into mainspace), then the editing process will find them eventually expanded into something half-decent or redirected to an article section or deleted. I sincerely doubt that there have ever been higher barriers to newbies creating stub articles on Wikipedia. (I am making a very bold claim here, because I would love to be proven wrong.)
I think there needs to be more said on how 'likelihood' is determined in this guideline, because in my experience, red links on subjects which are notable and verifiable are being removed - resulting in articles being orphaned from the start, and potentially not having people who would be interested in the topic (reading a related article) seeing the red link in that article's page and being enticed to create the article, or assist in drafting an article. I hope this helps clarify my concerns about how the 'likelihood' of a red link becoming an article is assessed, and helps move the discussion on. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 07:17, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
Flyer, I've changed the guideline page to read "Do not remove red links unless you are certain that Wikipedia should not have an article on the subject, or if the redlink could be replaced with a link to an article section where the subject is covered as part of a broader topic (see WP:NOPAGE)." If I am understanding you correctly, this gives across the broad thrust of your claim. If that's all you are aiming to say, here, then I agree- if that's all you mean by saying that we shouldn't link to things just because they might be able to support an article, then we're on the same page. If that's not what you're saying, and you genuinely believe that we should be removing redlinks because they link to "obscure" topics which, though notable, verifiable and encyclopedic (etc.), are not something you think anyone will be bothered writing about, then I'm glad to say that your view is not currently reflected in the guideline. (Again, I'm not trying to be ignorant here, but I am having some difficulty in following what's being said...) Josh Milburn (talk) 08:07, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
And I've no opinion on the anime article or any link therein. I'm here because of my interest in the guideline- no other reason. Josh Milburn (talk) 08:11, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm fine with this edit you made regarding the likelihood matter, since what warrants a Wikipedia article is a case-by-case matter (like I stated above, multiple WP:Secondary sources do not mean that the topic warrants a Wikipedia article), and I'm fine with this edit you made regarding the WP:NOPAGE guideline. As for removing a red link because it links to an obscure topic, yes, I (and many other editors) agree with that...if the removal is warranted; and I've seen many cases where the removal is warranted. I cannot stress enough that some people just want articles for topics even when those topics don't deserve an article whatsoever, and so then they toss in red links to achieve that. I'm tired of seeing lousy WP:Stubs, WP:Redundant forks, and other pages that should not be Wikipedia articles just because editors don't understand how WP:Notability works and that Wikipedia has more than one notability guideline, or because they are hoping that a WP:Newbie (who, again, doesn't understand our notability guidelines) will do the work for them.
And, yes, IP, many WP:Stubs are still created. And many of them never expand enough to be a worthwhile Wikipedia article. Flyer22 (talk) 08:23, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
Also, Josh Milburn, going back to this edit you made regarding WP:NOPAGE, I don't understand what wasn't clear to you about the wording before you made that alteration. The text was stating that the red link could be a potential article or that it could be turned into a link to a section; in both cases, the link would no longer be a red link. Flyer22 (talk) 08:33, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
I think part of the reason it was unclear to me (and I admit that this may be my problem, rather than yours) is that when someone talks about removing a redlink, I imagine there being no link, and that's certainly what the first part of the sentence was about. You were talking about replacing a redlink with a blue link- admittedly, this does involve the removal of the redlink. Concerning "I cannot stress enough that some people just want articles for topics even when those topics don't deserve an article whatsoever, and so then they toss in red links to achieve that." - yes, of course, I oppose red links to topics which "don't deserve" an article, but I don't think "obscurity" has anything to do with that. Wikipedia does and should cover a very wide array of deeply obscure topics. Josh Milburn (talk) 08:47, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
I don't doubt that Wikipedia should cover obscure topics. But, again, what I stated above about obscurity is that "if the topic is obscure, it is often the case that it should not have a Wikipedia article. Note: I stated 'often,' not 'always.'" By that, I mean that when it is an obscure topic, it's often the case that it's either not WP:Notable or it cannot be expanded beyond a WP:Stub and would be better served as a piece to an already-existing article. Wikipedia already covers so much, and it's common that people don't search well enough to see if there is an existing article on the topic, or a place where the topic can be adequately covered, before creating an article. There is also the fact that Wikipedia is so big that they can accidentally overlook those existing articles. This is why WP:Redundant fork comments on intentional and unintentional WP:Redundant forks. Flyer22 (talk) 09:05, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
Flyer, have you seen many cases where the removal of the red link is unwarranted, too? In my experience, if a stub is created, it can't be created by a newbie, because the AFC process is such that it selects against casual article-making. Having to wait for a month before someone even looks at your page is very discouraging unless you have a firm belief in the notability and verifiability of the topic and the quality of your writing. I'm tired of having to fight for red links to notable, verifiable, encyclopedic topics. Newbies and people who edit without signing up are capable of reading the notability guidelines, just like anyone else is, and the AFC process funnels people towards the relevant guidelines for making an article. Are you certain that those stubs you see will never ever expand enough to be a worthwhile Wikipedia article? What do you consider to be a worthwhile article? The worst thing that you've said about red links is that they encourage stubs. Even if people pepper articles with red links because they want articles on those topics - why do you seem to see that overwhelmingly as a negative thing? Those red links might be on valid topics that could add context to the first article. Good red links help Wikipedia grow, and remind us that Wikipedia will never be finished. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 09:15, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
IP, you stated it yourself above -- Wikipedia is not as active as it used to be. I've been editing this site since 2007; and back then, WP:Stubs were expanded much more often. But even then, a good number of them should not have become articles. And a good number of them are still WP:Stubs. Some of them only have a few WP:Reliable sources to support them, as if that means that they should be Wikipedia articles. Yes, I generally do not see WP:Stubs as a good thing. WP:Stub even currently states, "A stub is an article deemed too short to provide encyclopedic coverage of a subject." I cannot help it that I generally don't see "article[s] deemed too short to provide encyclopedic coverage of a subject" as good things. And I've been clear above that "Wikipedia already covers so much, and it's common that people don't search well enough to see if there is an existing article on the topic, or a place where the topic can be adequately covered, before creating an article. There is also the fact that Wikipedia is so big that they can accidentally overlook those existing articles. This is why WP:Redundant fork comments on intentional and unintentional WP:Redundant forks." So I don't know what else to state to you on this topic. You asked, "if people pepper articles with red links because they want articles on those topics - why do you seem to see that overwhelmingly as a negative thing?" If you can't see why I see that as "[an] overwhelmingly [...] negative thing," given what I stated above, then I really do not see the point in continuing this discussion with you. Flyer22 (talk) 09:29, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
I've already stated why I don't regard Wikipedia being less active as being a valid consideration for the removal of red links. Wikipedia will never be complete, it will always be a work in progress. Removing red links and arguing that stubs aren't found and expanded is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Removing red links leads to articles being orphaned from their (arguably delayed) inception and being unfindable (which would eventually lead to redundant forks). Being orphaned contributes to stubs remaining so for longer - because they're not well-linked and are harder to search for, potentially interested and knowledgeable people don't find and read the stub, and don't fix it.
I'm not sure where to go from here. What makes a red link likely to become a worthwhile article? (Beyond the manpower factor.) Can we please clarify this in the guideline? As it is, red links to valid topics are being removed for reasons which do not consider the topic's notability or verifiability, which contributes to the orphaning and delayed growth of stub articles. This guideline does not define the question of 'likelihood' in a clear way. This lack of definition means that a common understanding is difficult to reach - as I think we've been demonstrating. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 11:44, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
And I never stated that Wikipedia being less active is a valid consideration for the removal of red links. I've been very clear on what I mean, and I stand by it. You disagree, and I won't be agreeing with you. Furthermore, sources claiming that Wikipedia is less active than it used to be are quite clear that it is still very active, and they acknowledge reasons why it's less active -- such as the fact that Wikipedia already covers pretty everything there is to cover. In other words, they make it very clear that Wikipedia does not need to do much more growing. And that goes back to the points I've made about useless or silly WP:Stubs and WP:Redundant forks. Your fondness for red links will never be a view that I share. I was not speaking of WP:Orphans. Anyone wanting to know what I mean by "worthwhile" can Google the term. I am not speaking from a WP:IDON'TLIKEIT rationale on this matter, but from several years of experience editing this site. I doubt that you are anywhere close to being a WP:Newbie, so your experience with red link matters is different than mine for some other reason. And as for "likelihood," J Milburn already changed the wording to wording that you no doubt support. Flyer22 (talk) 12:01, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
@J Milburn and Flyer22: Can we go back to this edit, please? It doesn't look like anything I was trying to say. That whole sentence is about "Do not remove red links unless ...". "Remove" as in "delete the double brackets". (Sure, we hope and expect that someone real soon will create a page for that term to turn the red link blue. However deciding whether the new page is an article or a redirect to a section is an entirely separate matter. What we are talking about in this part of the guideline is, right now, should the red link be there or not.) The text now reads, "Do not remove red links unless ... the red link could be replaced with a link to an article section ...". Sorry, but that is going to be misunderstood. Remove the red link and replace it with a link to a section ... when? I know we're having trouble finding the right words, but the process we're trying to describe is not complicated: (1) is the redlinked term notable? If yes, leave the red link in; if no, you can remove it. (2) Separate decision, no need to make this decision immediately – do we write about the notable term in its own article or in a section of another article about a broader topic? If a section, we create a redirect from the notable term to that section. But maybe we are over-complicating by trying to go into unnecessary detail about part (2) of the process. Here's an attempt to separate things out into a simpler explanation; what does everyone think?
"In general, a red link should be allowed to remain in an article if it links to a term that could plausibly sustain an article, but for which there is no existing candidate article, or article section, under any name. (Sometimes it may be appropriate to cover a notable topic as part of a larger page about a broader topic – see WP:NOPAGE). Do not remove red links unless it is clear that the topic fails to meet Wikipedia's standards of notability." Wdchk (talk) 04:08, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Yes, as you can see in my "08:33, 2 May 2015 (UTC)" post above, I stated to Josh Milburn, "[G]oing back to this edit you made regarding WP:NOPAGE, I don't understand what wasn't clear to you about the wording before you made that alteration. The text was stating that the red link could be a potential article or that it could be turned into a link to a section; in both cases, the link would no longer be a red link." As for your proposal, Wdchk, I'd rather that the "Sometimes" sentence not be in parentheses. What do you think of wording the text as "or if the red link could be turned into a link to an article section where the subject is covered as part of a broader topic (see WP:NOPAGE)."?
On a side note: No need to WP:Ping me to this page since it's on my WP:Watchlist. Flyer22 (talk) 04:20, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Wdchk, I prefer your alternative wording here to the previous wording. I think "inclusion" would be better than "notability", as notability isn't necessarily the only relevant concern. I am opposed to Flyer's suggestion- creating a monster sentence with lots of conjunctions is not helpful; it's obfuscatory. How about "A red link should not be removed from an article if it links to a term that could plausibly sustain an article, but for which there is no existing candidate article. Note that, per WP:NOPAGE, it may sometimes it may be appropriate to cover a notable topic as part of a larger page about a broader topic. Do not remove red links unless it is clear that the topic fails to meet Wikipedia's inclusion criteria." I doubt this is perfect. Josh Milburn (talk) 07:59, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
My suggestion is the same as your wording, except I changed "could be replaced with a link" to "could be turned into a link." I changed it per what I stated in my "08:33, 2 May 2015 (UTC)" post, and your response to that. The current WP:NOPAGE wording is a mix of all three of our efforts. But I can be fine with either your or Wdchk's latest proposals (I already mentioned above that I prefer Wdchk's "Sometimes" sentence not be in parentheses). Flyer22 (talk) 08:30, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Apologies- I have no preference between "turned into" or "replaced", but perhaps we could clarify that we mean "blue link". After all, a red link is still a link. Josh Milburn (talk) 08:42, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm suggesting we leave out the part about "red link could be turned into / replaced with a blue link to a section" because that seemed to be a point at which we started to get confusing (see my previous comment 04:08, 3 May 2015). My reasoning is that someone who wants more info about linking to sections can go read about it at WP:NOPAGE. To avoid tying ourselves in knots, since this is the red link guideline I'm suggesting we focus mainly on why we would leave or remove a red link. I'm intentionally cutting out the explanation about converting red links to blue links because really that's a different topic (when do you create an article vs. when do you link to a section vs. when do you create a redirect, etc. – all those things documented elsewhere). I'm actually good with J Milburn's version of 07:59, 3 May 2015, with a minor copyedit:
"A red link should not be removed from an article if it links to a term that could plausibly sustain an article, but for which there is no existing candidate article. Note that, per WP:NOPAGE, it may sometimes it may be appropriate to cover a notable topic as part of a larger page about a broader topic. Do not remove red links unless it is clear that the topic fails to meet Wikipedia's inclusion criteria." Wdchk (talk) 00:57, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

In a situation where one person adds red links to a subject because they think it is notable, verifiable, and probably should have its own article, and someone else removes it because they think it falls under WP:NOPAGE (as in yaoi recently), does the current wording of the guideline provide enough guidance to allow such a dispute to be worked out? --110.20.234.69 (talk) 04:26, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

I did not explicitly remove your links at the Yaoi article because of WP:NOPAGE; if I felt that your links covered WP:Notable topics, I would not have asked you to provide proof of the matter. After you provided sources, what you consider proof, I still doubted that the topics should be standalone articles; I still do. I'm not convinced that your red links in that case are WP:Notable. That's why I explicitly stated that multiple WP:Reliable sources noting a topic does not automatically mean that a topic is WP:Notable, and then I attempted to explain what I meant (all of this is documented at the Yaoi talk page).
I think that the latest wording that J Milburn and Wdchk suggested above is clear enough. And if it's not as clear as it can be and needs more detail, that should be addressed lower on the page instead of in the introduction. I'm also not sure that this edit you made is needed. Flyer22 (talk) 05:00, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification. I made that edit because all the other WP: style abbreviations on the page are explained or hidden behind a plain English explanation of what they are. I changed the BLP one for the same reason. Having the plain English there makes it clearer as to why someone should read that link, and will hopefully result in more click-throughs. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 05:58, 5 May 2015 (UTC)