Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Stand-alone lists

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
WikiProject Lists (Rated Project-class)
WikiProject icon
Portal icon Lists portal
This page is part of WikiProject Lists, an attempt to structure and organize all list pages on Wikipedia. If you wish to help, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
 Project  This page does not require a rating on the project's quality scale.
 

Contents

[edit] Content and style guideline

There have been several moves of this guideline from Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (stand-alone lists) and back. Discussion such as this indicates that there is awareness that the page contains both content and style advice, so some unwillingness to pin it down as one form of guideline or other. The move in January to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (stand-alone lists) without a discussion was, in the circumstances, unhelpful, though these things are likely to happen when there is such doubt, and there hasn't been a conclusive discussion on the best way forward.

Possible ways forward are:

  1. The guideline is renamed back to Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists as that doesn't put it in any particular group, and allows the guide to cover both style and content advice.
  2. The guide is rewritten to focus on either content or style, and relevant material is moved out to the most appropriate page.
  3. The page is split into something like Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists (content) and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (stand-alone lists).

There will be other possibilities.

As part of any discussion, it might be helpful to indicate that WP:SALAT, WP:LISTPEOPLE, WP:LISTCOMPANY and most of WP:LSC are not style discussions, but content inclusion; and these these sections make up the bulk of the page. SilkTork *Tea time 09:24, 5 July 2011 (UTC)


Wholeheartedly support your ideas—this mess has been around for far too long. Wish I had more time to help do something about it though... Uniplex (talk) 19:52, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I think what you're saying is that there is good reason for one page to cover content and the other style, but the content part of that should not fall under the MoS umbrella? If so, I agree. As for the name suggestion, how about Wikipedia:Writing a list? —WFC— 21:19, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
There is no content and notability material in Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Embedded lists, which is purely style related. The difference, though, between an embedded list and a standalone, is that the embedded list is part of an article which presumably already meets notability guidelines. The notability requirements for a standalone article/list are stiffer than for material contained within an existing article. For example, people prefer an album released by a band to be discussed within the article on the band unless the album has achieved notability for itself. The difficulty we have is that a band may have released 20 non-notable albums, and then someone splits out a list of those albums as a standalone page. At that point we need content and notability guidelines; while the list is part of the band's article such guidelines are not needed, all that is required is that the albums are sourced to have been released by the band, not that the albums either by themselves or as a body of work are notable. As such, the Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Embedded lists page does not need content advice, while Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Stand-alone lists does. I'm just thinking out loud at the moment. SilkTork ✔Tea time 12:27, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
My bad. Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(lists)#List_content does not deal with the material, but the layout of a list. SilkTork ✔Tea time 12:31, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
I've now changed the name of that section to List layout. SilkTork ✔Tea time 12:35, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Reference in List

I was thinking we should make these list have more general references mandatory. Such as if a list of playstation video games, a list of releases would help. Or a list of Comedies TV series would be referenced in by a third-party source listing them. To give these list more credit and proof that they're "human knowledge".Bread Ninja (talk) 15:17, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

The current warning for adding inappropriate entries to lists indicates that all entries must have an article. This establishes notability without need for a cite in the list. If the entry does not have an article, it is not notable and should not be included in the list. If it is not notable, it should not have an article. - PhD (talk) 21:06, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
then it's truly not stand-alone? I think we need to revise the guideline....there are a few things that don't make sense.Bread Ninja (talk) 21:14, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
The reasoning makes sense. If there is no article for the entry, the item is not notable. Lists like List of people from Florida obviously should not include every person from Florida. The criteria for inclusion is, therefore, notability. Yeah, you could provide cites showing substantial coverage in independent reliable sources. However, at that point we should have an article. Additionally, lists require frequent clean-outs ("Gee, this is a list of graduates of Hillman College. I went there. It says anyone can edit. So..."). Without a bluelink, the only way to verify that each entry belongs on the list is to read all of the cites -- an overwhelming task that will never be done. Without bluelinks, each article will need its own inclusion criteria ("Hey, this wedding announcement mentions I went to Hillman..."). The vast majority of "List of" articles are thinly edited and will never receive sufficient attention to establish such criteria. Requiring bluelinks avoids the necessity of re-inventing the wheel. Heck, with articles like List of Christmas carols we have enough of a battle deciding what counts as a Christmas carol, let alone coming up with separate cites for all of them. At least with required bluelinks we have no debates on whether or not the song little Timmy wrote (which was mentioned in his hometown newspaper when he got first prize at his school talent show) is notable or not. - SummerPhD (talk) 10:19, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
Please show where is the rule that says everything in a list must have an article or remove it. Any templates which say this should be removed/corrected as they are plainly wrong. Hmains (talk) 02:23, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
The standard, consensus warning uw-badlistentry reads, "In general, a person or organization added to a list should have a pre-existing article to establish notability. If you wish to create such an article, please confirm that your subject is notable according to Wikipedia's notability policy. Thank you" - SummerPhD (talk) 10:19, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
In general, should... this is just good advice. It's not an example of a template that says list items must link to articles. —mjb (talk) 11:59, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
So does anyone here have a problem against this proposal? if an independent list article is just made up of individual entries, than being a list based on human knowledge is difficult. So a more respectable list would have a few references. For example if there was List of comedy TV series, there would need to be sources that list comedy TV series out there (again, not saying the articles need to be exclusive to these references but mandatory to have a significant or certain ammount). SO that we can differentiate categories from lists.Bread Ninja (talk) 21:00, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
Well, WP:General references aren't always very popular, although I think that lists might be one of the better uses for them. BLP lists probably need to have WP:Inline citations, though. We could at least look at ways to encourage people to add sources.
Summer, your assertions about all entries needing to be notable are unfortunately wrong; you will find the correct advice at WP:LSC. "All entries are notable" is only the first of three common selection criteria patterns for a list. We will have to think about how to correct the misinformation in {{uw-badlistentry}} without overwhelming the users with complexity. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:14, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
I think it's a medium of general and specific. references that talk about more general aspects that could be used in more "general" article than a list.Bread Ninja (talk) 23:30, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
As for if each list item must have a article, I do not agree at all, lists does list things that are not notable enough to get its own articles, see e.g. the featured lists List of awards and nominations received by Aerosmith and Abingdon Boys School discography which will not be able to have articles for each items, but they are still (IMHO) good lists. As for referencing each list item as a must, I do not agree, same rules as for general text should apply, if anyone questions a item, use the general tags and ask for references, if no ref can be found then remove the item. But to demand a ref for each item is a bit harsh. --Stefan talk 10:06, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
If you are going to make any major changes that involve BLPs that will have to be cleared at BLPN or Talk:BLP, not here. And I firmly agree with ""In general, a person or organization added to a list should have a pre-existing article to establish notability. If you wish to create such an article, please confirm that your subject is notable according to Wikipedia's notability policy. Thank you"" And you should not be adding unsourced information. Anything contentious should be sourced, and given how many lists have entries that are clearly promotional then it should be clear why we need sources. Dougweller (talk) 10:27, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
Do not agree at all, this policy mean that e.g. you cannot list the players of a football team, even a world cup champion ship team, unless every single one is notable. This have been discussed before and have not gained consensus. Think there was some kind of agreement that the list must be notable, not not its individual items, and there should be able to have aref that describes such a list as notable.--Stefan talk 11:27, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
Thus we have the exception (the reason it says "In general..."). An all-inclusive list (Mayors of Podunk, Wives of Henry VIII, whatever) should be all-inclusive. List of people from Florida certainly should be limited to bluelinks, as should most other lists. - SummerPhD (talk) 13:50, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

well everything won't always be sourced. But, what i'm trying to do is separate list articles from categories. I"m saying list shouldn't be made up of only individual entries that are loosely associated to 1 or 2 aspects unless there are sources covering multiple entries at once. For example list of World Cup championship team would need to have sources relating to "Championship teams in history" or something like that, and the source it self would have to give in certain entries. Also, i'm not saying every entry has to be "notable" but every entry has to be "noted".Bread Ninja (talk) 14:25, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

I was considering starting a small, separate section on the issue of sourcing, in which we could recommend general references for many purposes and inline citations for contentious BLP issues. It might also be worth saying that (as I've been told) the reason many old lists are unref'd is because back in the day, lists weren't supposed to have refs.
But then it occurred to me that this is supposedly a "style" page (although really a hybrid that deals with far more than style), so I wanted to know what you all thought. Would it be helpful to provide a little information along those lines? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:39, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
List articles without sources would defeat the purpose of "categories" so list have to be notable, unlike "categories". Categories can exist without sources, just depends on the number of articles that relate is significant enough to exist. Still, this article is about "stand-alone" lists (not sister lists that are spun out of a main article.Bread Ninja (talk) 19:19, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
  • The part of this guideline that states: "Every entry meets the notability criteria for its own non-redirect article in the English Wikipedia. Red-linked entries are acceptable if the entry is verifiably a member of the listed group, and it is reasonable to expect an article could be forthcoming in the future" is all that is needed. Any changes to this guideline, which has been the basis of thousands and thousands of lists would, just mean that the lists' content will be destroyed by the deletion zealots who will go off and delete every red link they find in lists. Hmains (talk) 20:45, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
  • regardless....my proposal is to help justify the list itself, not the entries within the list.Bread Ninja (talk) 21:29, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
    • It is not 'regardless'. Anything that changes what can be in the lists will only serve the purposes of the deletion zealots, who already waste enough of all our time. Hmains (talk) 02:28, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Hey, that's a good thing. It will send the keep everything zealots off on a campaign to create articles so that we can peacefully delete articles about Timmy's garage band and Jenny's favorite gym teacher. I tend to agree that we need some kind of evidence that a list topic is notable. Otherwise, we end up with "List of vegetables that are sometimes purple" or "List of fictional modes of transportation". As for what belongs in the list, I generally have no problem with bluelinks and find that, when pressed, editors wishing to include a redlink will either provide enough sourcing that I can create an article, create the article themselves or, when they can't find sources, realize that there item isn't really notable. Those rejecting WP:N as the criterion for inclusion will have to deal with the List of people from Florida article without a clear cut guideline. - SummerPhD (talk) 03:24, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
See [1] for a previous RFC on this topic. --Stefan talk 06:10, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
the deletion zealots value quality over quantity. I'm not in favor of deleting valuable articles or articles with potential value (until it is proven it is not), but lately the deletions happening have been more and more reasonable. But that's not my point. Anything "in favor" of anyone doesn't matter in this discussion. the idea is to justify stand alone list articles by making them reference the list itself. For example if there was hypothetically a List of Zombies characters in Television but the references only support the individual entries and sources about History of Zombies in Television, how would that justify the list? there would need to be sources relating to "list of" or a source listing multiple of that subject more accurately to make it more of a reasonable list that is practical, useful, and a common search. The also helps separate the categories from becoming list articles themselves without proper citation.
here are the main problems i see within the guideline:
  • The potential for creating lists is infinite. The number of possible lists is limited only by our collective imagination.
  • Every entry in the list fails the notability criteria. These lists are created explicitly because most or all of the listed items do not warrant independent articles: for example, List of minor characters in Dilbert or List of paracetamol brand names.
First problem i have with the first one is that if we imagine it, the list is possible. Which means we are in control of how many list there are. I highly suggest we remove that. As for the second part, it just needs more clarification and better examples. The first one isn't a stand-alone list anymore and the other barely has any sources at all.
Now this could also help "merge" certain parts of a list that are useful or create a main article sometimes...I'm not saying all will. List have to be practical use. Again, I'm not saying that the list should contain exclusive to these sources but use sources like these to justify the list itself. For example, here's an article that already exist: List of fictional elements, materials, isotopes and atomic particles.
Even if every entry was cited with a reliable source, what would make this list practical? What separates category from Stand alone list article?Bread Ninja (talk) 12:38, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

I will point out that relatively recently we added WP:LISTN to WP:N, which discusses what type of notability we look at for the grouping of the list. --MASEM (t) 12:58, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

What I'm looking for is a more specific form. there saying if the topic is notable, than a list of the topic is justified. Which is a bit at odds with.Bread Ninja (talk) 13:07, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
that's too general,and not always applicable. What is meant, if a type of person, thing, or organization is notable in general, and if specific things, people, or organization of that type are individually notable, then a list of the ones that Wikipedia has articles on is justified (as well as a category). The two are complementary as aids to navigation. If there are no notable individual articles here, there's nothing to navigate. If the overall concept isn't notable, then no individual exemplifying the concept will have an article because of that, it will just be incidental, and there is usually n reason for someone to navigate to find other instances of the same unimportant characteristic. List have the advantages of categories in navigation in giving some idea of context; categories have the advantage of lists, of being self-maintaining. Wikipedia is written not primarily for the benefit of those who write it, but for those who read it, and anything that helps them find information whether for a directed purpose or for browsing is a good idea.
The other type of list, is the list article when individual instances are not notable enough for an article, or there is not enough information for an article, but a sentence or too about each is reasonable coverage. There is no sharp cutoff here: it's a way of dealing with borderline notability--or, in some cases, with technical notability but not enough information to support full articles. There is a way of including individual sections of articles in categories, but we don't usually do that. We can make redirects, though, and include them in categories, if we think it worth the trouble. Again, it's a matter of judgment in individual situations about how much to say. DGG ( talk ) 20:45, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

How is it too general? I think we need to figure out what needs to be categorization and what can be both category and list article. Treat list articles in similar fashion as main articles.22:48, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

This is already covered in the Notability policy. WP:LISTN states: "Because the group or set is notable, the individual items in the list do not need to be independently notable, although editors may, at their discretion, choose to limit large lists by only including entries for independently notable items or those with Wikipedia articles." And if they don't have to be notable, they don't need to have an article (because they're not eligible for one anyways). The Transhumanist 23:07, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

[edit] List of people from East St. Louis, Illinois

I'm pretty sure one notable person was left out. His name is Alvin Randolph, who played Pro Football with the San Francisco Forty- Niners. (Wide Receiver) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.11.248.142 (talk) 18:42, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the edit this page link at the top.
The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:03, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing guidelines for list titles

Current text at WP:LISTNAME: "The name or title of the list should simply be List of ___ (for example list of Xs). A list of lists of X could be at lists of X or list of X: e.g., lists of people, list of sovereign states."

Things I find puzzling about these two sentences:

  1. First sentence says that the title of the list--which I read to mean "any list"--should be "List of X", and then the second sentence says something different for how to title a list of lists, without reconciling the contradiction. I suggest either changing the first sentence to say "generally" instead of "simply", or changing the second sentence to specify that lists of lists are an exception to that rule.
  2. The second sentence gives two formats for how to title a list of lists, and two examples; the first example illustrates the first format, but the second example a) doesn't illustrate the second format, b) doesn't illustrate the first format, and c) is not a list of lists at all. I don't know if perhaps List of sovereign states used to be a list of lists of sovereign states, but it doesn't appear to be such now. I suggest replacing that link with one that does use the format "List of X" for a list of lists of X. Theoldsparkle (talk) 14:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Fix it. I would prefer that "Lists of" and "List of x lists" be phased out and the titles cleaned up. Lists are subject to expansion (WP:SPLIT) and can include as many pages as required. Note that Wikipedia:Naming conventions (long lists) includes within its scope lists that are split subtopically. Oddly, it doesn't provide any guidance or examples of subtopically split lists.
How big is this problem? Entering (Lists|[ ]lists) into Grep produces the following list (without the numbering - using WikEd's REGEX feature I replaced \n\n with ]]\n# [[ to add link brackets and numbered bullets):
The Transhumanist 22:58, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
It's not an absolute rule. There are times when "list" doesn't appear at all in the title, despite the page obviously being a list when you look at it. I've clarified the wording. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:56, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

[edit] List of dogs vs. List of birds

It should stipulate that these guidelines should not be literally followed if doing so leaves the title insufficient to know what it's a list of. Compare List of pigs vs. List of birds. It's not clear from the title if "list of dogs" is going to be a la "Snoopy, Pluto, Astro"; "Raccoon dog, Dingo, African Wild dog" or what it actually is. Titles should say what they have to in order to clearly state what the list is, and if these guidelines interfere with that, everyone should be reasonable and not strictly apply them. It should be "List of famous dogs" and "list of bird species". Chrisrus (talk) 17:36, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, standardization is needed, but not just on the stand-alone list level, as Wikipedia supports section links. Naming of sections containing such lists need to be covered as well. We need a naming standard for all lists, wherever they may be. See:
There's a relevant essay: Wikipedia:Ambiguous words. Perhaps it can be expanded into a guideline, and then a link provided on the list guidelines.
But even more important than a standard, we need volunteers to clean up this mess. There are probably hundreds of ambiguously titled lists. The Transhumanist 22:12, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Adding essay to list

I attempted to add WP:Viability of lists to this list and was reverted. The list was created originally with the intention of an accompaning essay for WP:LISTN. I only recently finished it (having forgotten about it for some time). I wanted to go ahead and add it here as well since it deals with stand alone lists. If you feel something is amiss, please feel free to change it.∞陣内Jinnai 17:15, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

[edit] The Queen's thingums

I know that it may sound trivial, but some editors get an itch in their pants over the smallest things, and I'd like to avoid embarrassment for all parties. Especially me. So I come seeking the wisdom of the mages found here.

List of titles and honours of Queen Elizabeth II has a section devoted to things named after the Queen; this is divided up into monuments, hospitals, roads and so on. Once upon a time, a diligent and hard-working editor pulled out all the things located in Canada and inserted them into a list of things named after various royal people in Canada, helpfully named Royal eponyms in Canada. Another editor, two years later, found the list and added a government building in Regina to the list, as it was named after the Queen, it was a building, and it slotted neatly in between a sports centre in Queensland and a quay in Sierra Leone. The sixteen-story building was promptly demolished by the diligent and hard-working editor on the grounds that it was a bad edit because the building was listed elsewhere - in the Canadian-only list.

I've stepped in, but I find that the diligent and hard-working editor is now throwing monkey faeces back at me, and I find this most uncomfortable. Could I enlist some wise eyes to review things here, please? --19:36, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Try to be neutral when making requests like this; passive aggressive attacks like "throwing monkey faeces" aren't at all necessary. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 21:00, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
It is an accurate statement of my feelings in this matter and why I am moved to seek the oversight of those who are not bespattered. --Pete (talk) 21:09, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
There's no general principle that gives you the One True™ Answer. Specifically, there is no rule that any article can't be included in a hundred lists, and there's equally no rule that anything has to be present in more than one list.
This is all about the list selection criteria. The list selection criteria are supposed to be described at the top of the list. (If nobody's done that yet, then fix it.) You should be able to look at the top of that list and see exactly what's supposed to be included in that list. The description at List #1 tells you what you're allowed to put in list #1. List #1 has no right to declare that List #2 is not permitted to include anything that is already listed at List #1, and List #2 has no right to tell List #1 what to include. Unless the "Titles and honours" list actually says that Canadian items are not permitted in the "Titles and honours" list, then the fact that it's a Canadian building is irrelevant. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:04, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. We'll work on appropriate list selection criteria. As I see it, "things" is not specific enough to exclude immaterial items such as prizes or awards or scholarships - we're listing material items such as bridges and hospitals. And there's no reason to exclude Canadian hospitals. --Pete (talk) 09:56, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
This is a simple matter of organisation. Nothing says there can't be two identical lists or one list that's partly comprised of a whole list that exists elsewhere; but, does it always make sense to do that? Is that the only thing that can be done? These are the questions being asked to the editor proposing duplication and to which no answers are forthcoming. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 21:18, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
If List #1 decides that they want to partly or completely duplicate List #2, then it is not up to the editors at List #2 to tell them to stop. The editors at List #2 do not WP:OWN the content.
If you want to persuade the folks at List #1 that your approach is better, then you need to focus on winning friends and influencing people rather than on trying to find a rule that says you're right and they're wrong and so they have to do it your way.
I also point out that if you take this through dispute resolution, the most likely outcome is that List #2 (the Canadian-specific list) will simply be merged out of existence, and then it will all be in List #1. So if you're wishing for a non-voluntary resolution, I advise you to be careful what you wish for. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:52, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
I think you've misunderstood what I wrote. I didn't refer to any rules; in fact, I said there were no rules. What I said was: this is a matter of organisation; what's the most logical way to organise the information, specifically. Doubling the info (and the work) up doesn't seem to fit that end. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 22:05, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
Sure, repeating the information in two places could double the work (from "almost nothing" to "a little bit"). But a perfectly sensible, logical method of reducing that duplication of effort is to eliminate the Canadian-specific list. Is that what you want? Creating one complete list is at least as logical as demanding that the other folks create an incomplete list so that they don't voluntarily spend their time duplicating your efforts.
The bottom line is still consensus, and it is still difficult to convince people that your idea is a better than theirs when you are taking an adversarial role. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:34, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
I have a different opinion of my tone, and a different experience in this matter (plus others with Pete/Skyring) than yours.
Regardless, of course consensus is the desired result. If that means merging a section of one list into another, so be it. Eliminating the section of the Canadian-specific list isn't necessarily the right way to do so, though. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 22:56, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
Consensus is required when another editor tries to do something one doesn't want, but not when one is trying to sneak something past others who may object. Miesanical, you seem to be painting yourself into a corner. Things can exist as entries in multiple lists, and you may leave Royal eponyms in Canada alone or add to it if you can find further items for inclusion - though I do think you should find a more accessible title for your article. List of things named after Queen Elizabeth II is (or will be) a different list entirely, even if there is a small overlap with several other lists, such as List of hospitals in Canada. There is no requirement to merge two quite different lists merely because a few items appear on both lists. --Pete (talk) 21:24, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
It still seems you don't understand consensus; what you say about it above makes no sense; not in this context, anyway. As for the rest: if you want duplication, so be it. And, in that case, I hope you'll keep the two lists consistent as one or the other is added to; it would be odd, and thus confusing, for one list to have entries the other doesn't. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 17:41, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Minimum number of items on a list

Hi. Could anyone point me in the direction to the guideline on what is the minimum number of entries a list can have. Thanks. Lugnuts (talk) 09:25, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't think we have such a guideline. We are not even clear on what constitutes a list - see Wikipedia talk:Featured list criteria. The FL people apparently regard a list as anything that the FA people reject. The closest anyone there could come to a definition is Goodraise who said: "to qualify as a stand-alone list, an article needs to have what I'd call a 'list character'". WP:List says: "List articles are encyclopedia pages consisting of a lead section followed by a list (which may or may not be divided by headings)." And this guideline for stand alone lists says: "Stand-alone lists are articles that primarily consist of lists of links, data or information."
As a list is a number of items, the minimum could be understood as at least two items. Would you be able to make a standalone article out of just two items? Probably. We have an article with just three items - U.S. state bats. And there may be articles with just two items. SilkTork ✔Tea time 16:42, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
Someone had brought up a list with 4 items on it at FL some time ago and was rejected as too short (the list page still exists though). They used to have a minimum of 10 items, but they dropped that requirement some time ago as they were constantly making exceptions for 8 or so and on occasion as low as 6 or 7. However, I'd say that those latter ones with 6-7 had to have a good reason they couldn't be incorporated as they've also rejected similarly short lists. I got one of those shorter lists (7 items) FL status. They've also more rarely rejected ones with higher numbers though, so there is no hard-and-fast rule, but I'd day if its <5, it probably isn't enough.∞陣内Jinnai 19:43, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Jinnai's account, while not exactly incorrect, is somewhat out of date. There was an informal consensus that particularly short lists should not be awarded featured status. In the absence of such a criterion in WP:WIAFL, many reviewers arbitrarily picked a number and opposed nominations with less items than that. While this kept short lists out, it wasn't a good solution in the long run. We Wikipedians don't seem to like arbitrarily chosen thresholds. Also, we wanted every list that should exist to be eligible for featured status. Our trouble was that the community hadn't provided us with a means of determining which lists should exist. While stand-alone lists were considered articles back then as well as now, WP:N did not yet discuss them. It does now, but it still does not explain what "stand-alone" means or doesn't mean. Practice shows that some lists are not expected to comply with the GNG. One might argue that a "List of Some Series episodes" is an article, but not a "stand-alone" one, that it somehow inherits, not notability, but some sort of justification of its existence from its parent article. To make due with what little community-wide consensus we had, we came up with criterion 3b. In essence, we grabbed for the nearest straw to pull us out of the mud. That straw was WP:CFORK. But to answer the original question, there is no minimum number. If your list meets the GNG, you're on the safe side. If it doesn't meet the GNG, but isn't a CFORK either, you need not fear coming to FLC. However, as the featured list criteria are right now, relying on CFORK, rather than something like WP:N, it is not unheard of for featured lists to show up at AfD. As for two-item "lists", I don't think any list with two items will ever pass FLC. Two items just isn't enough to give an article "list character". At FLC, I'd point the nominator of such an article to FAC. Goodraise 00:19, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
While WP:N doesn't talk too much about lists, there is WP:Viability of lists which was created as an accompanying essay to WP:LISTN.∞陣内Jinnai 22:07, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for getting back to me. Lugnuts (talk) 09:16, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

[edit] List of local chapters/branches/outlets

I understand the thinking behind the recent edit introducing the notion that "Lists of sub-chapters of notable organizations are problematic"; however, having just explored the nature of such lists with the Fraternities WikiProject, and seen a good example of such a list, and not having seen a consensus view that such lists should be discouraged, I'm not certain that the wording is helpful. Nor am I certain that this is the place to be dealing with such specifics - it may be that WP:CLUB would be a better place. SilkTork ✔Tea time 09:02, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I could go either way with that: it's probably going to be dull content, but it might be the result of a WP:SPLIT that dramatically improves the main article. I wonder whether it would might make more sense to address it at WP:ORG than here. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:30, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
I have moved it to WP:ORG, and reworded slightly to incorporate ideas from above. SilkTork ✔Tea time 10:08, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

[edit] Items in a list should be cited

Resolved: Stand-alone lists are Wikipedia articles; so are subject to Wikipedia's content policies, such as verifiability

This MOS is missing an important point: To include an item in a stand-alone-list, it should be cited. Not having this requirement (pushing the citation to the linked target article) allows folks to bypass WP:V by a wide margin. Toddst1 (talk) 21:29, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I think you may misunderstand WP:V, which is about the possibility of finding a reliable source (that is, has any reliable source ever published this before?), not about whether someone has already typed a citation onto the page. A completely unreferenced list can be 100% compliant with WP:V (unless it contains a direct quotation). Please read the summary at WP:MINREF and think about the difference between content that is verifiable and content that is verified. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:34, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing out the flaw in the policy by citing it. Example: Add George Washington to List of convicted war criminals. That's why we need to require citations on lists. See Disadvantages of lists, the first part of #5. The second bullet in WP:LISTPEOPLE also applies here, but I see no reason it would be limited to people. Toddst1 (talk) 23:46, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
The problem you give is not specific to lists. You could just as easily add "George Washington was convicted of war crimes" as a sentence in an article. It isn't possible to verify that statement, and so it should be removed from articles and lists—but (since Washington is dead) it's not actually required by any policy to have an inline citation up until the moment that someone (you?) WP:CHALLENGEs the claim. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:48, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Right, that's when you would tag something with {{cn}} or {{unreferenced}} - but as it is now, we have folks that think it's ok to have unreferenced lists [2] [3] and lists about living people where folks believe they're not BLPs.[4] (There are many more examples. Apologies for picking on these editors) That's why I brought up that lists need to be verifiable - without following the links - just like articles themselves and should have citations. Toddst1 (talk) 04:01, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
"Stand-alone lists are Wikipedia articles; so are subject to Wikipedia's content policies, such as verifiability". I don't think it needs to be said any clearer than that. Goodraise 15:37, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Ok. Thx. Toddst1 (talk) 16:22, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
GoodDay is obviously correct, but you seem to have either misunderstood or ignored WhatamIdoing's point. There is nothing wrong with tagging an unreferenced list as {{unreferenced}} (indeed, this should be done agressively). But a completely unreferenced list can nonetheless meet WP:V. Taking List of investment banks as an example, the existence of bluelinks is evidence enough that the content is verifiable (and thus that it shouldn't be deleted on WP:V grounds). It is of course not acceptable to leave it at that, hence the existence of tags such as {{unreferenced}}. —WFC— 18:06, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Yes: The rules are the same for (non-navigational) "lists" as for "articles". And the rules do not say that any page (whether in list form or not) is required to cite any references at all (unless it contains a direct quotation or contentious matter about a BLP)—up until the moment that someone challenges the content on the page (not, by the way, merely notes that there are currently no citations on the page; unref is sometimes a useful cleanup tag to add, but "Hey, this page is WP:NOTDONE!" does not actually constitute a challenge to the content).
Toddst, I think the problem is that you still don't understand exactly what "verifiable" means. If someone could go to his local library or his favorite web search engine and find a reliable source that supports the information on the page, then that page is already verifiable, even though it contains zero citations. What you're talking about is your desire for the page to be verified, which is not actually required by any policy (except when the four narrow situations at WP:MINREF apply). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:16, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Actually, not quite. Part of our verifiability policy is that we've at least identified a source; it should be added in due time to an article to support the fact, but not including it at all is not correct. We can't just add info, have no source, and say "Oh, just look in your local library for it" because the reader has no idea where to go.
When it comes back to this specific question, I think the need to source every element (assuming there is no single source that already does this en masse) depends on the degree of contentious of the fact being claims. A list of people (all notable with their own articles) from a specific city likely doesn't need a source for each element as long as the information is clear from the individual articles. On the other hand, lists of people that evoke a religious, political, or other social trait (ala LBGT) probably need to have a cite for each entry since this information may be buried within the article in the question even if sourced. WP:V still applies to all, but its taking into consideration of the contentious nature of the topic (eg : what was added to the policy page is certainly not wrong, but now its more the finer details of using it). --MASEM (t) 18:39, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Masem, you know that I support the inclusion of sources, but the fact is that the WP:V policy does not actually say that we need to have identified a source. If I happen to type "the human hand normally contains four fingers and one thumb"—a statement that does not fall afoul of any of the four WP:MINREF items—then I don't need to have identified a source for that material to comply with WP:V.
Once there has been a challenge to the material—once someone actually asks for a source for that particular material—then "Oh, just look in your local library for it" is inappropriate (per BURDEN), but unless and until someone actually asks for a source for that material, then that material is fully compliant with WP:V's actual requirements. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:27, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Yea, I agree with that; I'm just concerned that when we're talking anything but trivial facts, "verifiability" is not simply pointing the reader to find it themselves; sources are important, more and more as the fact can be considered contentious. To this discussion, we can point readers to the individual articles that are listed on the list, but the more contested the fact, the more likely we should have that source on the list as well. --MASEM (t) 20:09, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Ok, So just to be clear, {{Prod blp/dated}} applies to stand-alone lists. Toddst1 (talk) 22:24, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I would support that, because lists of or about living people have the same potential issues as the articles about the people themselves. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:16, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
I'd support that too for lists which focus on a BLP (such as List of awards and nominations received by Stephen Lang), but the place to make that decision is Wikipedia talk:Proposed deletion of biographies of living people. —WFC— 21:48, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Hmm, I see the addition, but not sure I agree on the language (the intent's right).
Take the addition's example of a "List of fruit". Of course we wouldn't source that an apple is a fruit, but we may have something obscure like vanilla which I just learned now is a fruit (but not that I was begging to know that, just trying to find an example). However, is the fact that vanilla is a fruit something contentious? Not really.
Where I'm going with this is the idea of consistency. As soon as you say "ok, I need to source this element on this list", then every element should be sourced, even if that is obvious. Consensus can choose to source nothing (though if there are non-blue-link terms, I would source those if the rest are unsourced, if they're to be sourced on a item by item basis). But it should not be a mix where , in a list with all blue-links, where some terms are sourced, and some are not.
So how to define when to source then? My rule of thumb would be, if for any spot check element on the list, I can hit up its article and within the lead paragraphs and/or infobox, and always hit that piece of information, it does not need a source on a list page. So back to List of Fruit, since all fruits appear to be identified as fruits in the lead of their respective articles, there's no need to source any of them. On the other hand, I would figure that with contentious topics that each and every entry should be sourced, as while the contentious fact may be in the lead for some elements, it likely won't be there for them all. --MASEM (t) 22:31, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
That doesn't work. We don't use Wikipedia as a source. Of course you don't need to cite obvious things but with the unsourced BLP rule, each article about a living person (and a list is an article) it must have at least one source. Using citations in the linked article is using Wikipedia as a source and that article may or may not have that information sourced. Toddst1 (talk) 22:37, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Let's ignore BLP because that's a special case where erring on the "source each entry" side is the right approach.
Instead I would argue that if one is trying to determine if a fact is contentious for all elements of a list, to spot check the leads; yes, a fact in the lead may not be appropriately sourced in the body, but on the larger scale, if a good random sample shows that that fact (X is a fruit, for example) appears in every lead checked, its probably a non-contentious fact - but completely as a rule of thumb. --MASEM (t) 22:42, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
No let's not ignore the case that proves the necessity. Toddst1 (talk) 06:25, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
Masem's point is that for BLP related statements, adequate sourcing is already a necessity, regardless of the outcome of this discussion. —WFC— 06:30, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

[edit] "Wikipedia has many list of lists articles."

The guideline currently states that "Wikipedia has many list of lists articles." I propose we stop treating those pages as articles and more like disambiguation pages. A new guideline for those pages should be created at Wikipedia:Lists of lists. Goodraise 16:20, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Not all Lists of Lists are disambiguation pages. They may be outline-type pages, they may be a means of providing an index to a list spread out over several pages, etc. --MASEM (t) 16:33, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
I wouldn't consider outlines lists. They're more like portals. I think we should differentiate between pages dealing with Wikipedia pages and pages dealing with everything else. If a list of lists is nothing but an index of a list spread out over several pages, then it's incomplete. Give it a lead, summarize the linked lists, add references, and you'll have a real article, not some navigational half-breed. Goodraise 18:32, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

[edit] Citing sources

I've just boldly created a summary of the above discussions at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Stand-alone lists#Citing_sources. This isn't exactly typical content for a MoS page, but there's yet another question about this at the other MoS list, and so it seems that we need to get back to the proposal from last August to have a brief section.

What I've added is a plain-language summary of the sourcing policy (with a link to the minimum requirements) and a direct statement that it's the same rules as any regular article. I'm waffling about whether we should call out the BLP provision, since I'm not entirely sure that people will always click through to discover that one, and it's pretty important for certain kinds of BLP-related lists. What do you think? WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:21, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

"Non-navigational lists are treated the same as any other article". Tell me please, what, in your mind, distinguishes a navigational list from a non-navigational list? Until we have consensus on which is what, setting different standards for the two kinds will only lead to chaos. Goodraise 23:08, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Once you move beyond the obvious pages, like dab pages and navboxes, there's no easy answer and IMO no practical help from a description. Editors are going to have to use their judgment, case by case, every single time. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:31, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
A piece of guideline text requiring editors "to use their judgment, case by case, every single time" is superfluous. Guidelines should provide guidance. This just gives another tool to Wikilawyers. Goodraise 23:48, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm curious how you think a wikilawyer will abuse this text. It seems pretty clear to me. Can you give me a hypothetical example of what you're worried about? Someone declaring that their claim that Joe Smith is gay is just as obvious as saying that an apple is a fruit, maybe? WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:30, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
The lack of clarity begins with the first word, "Non-navigational lists". What is that? My worries are not specific. I merely oppose unnecessary expansion of guidelines. What's the point of this section? Why do we need it? As far as I can tell, it serves no purpose. Goodraise 23:18, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
Let us deal with the second question first: This section is needed because people keep asking for exactly this information over and over and over and over and over again, as proven by three separate requests just on this page in the last few months and other requests on other pages. Generally, when people voluntarily request advice repeatedly, it's a sign that we need to be providing that advice.
A disambiguation page is one example of a page that is widely acknowledged to be a navigational list. A disambiguation page is not permitted to contain citations per Wikipedia:Disambiguation#References: "Do not include references in disambiguation pages". I am not interested in writing this guideline so that it appears to directly conflict with another, long-established guideline. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:00, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
Please don't take this the wrong way, but whenever someone uses phrases like "... is widely acknowledged", I get the feeling they're trying to get me to accept as true something they can't substantiate. I'm not saying that disambiguation pages are not widely acknowledged to be navigational lists, just that this is the first I've heard of it and that I doubt it. Anyway, disambiguation pages, unlike stand-alone lists, are not articles,MOS:DAB meaning this guideline doesn't, or rather shouldn't, cover them. I will acknowledge that we need to make some sort of change somewhere. However, I think this new section is a step in the wrong direction. Only pages intended to be articles should be referred to as stand-alone lists. These pages, like all other articles, should have to comply fully with WP:V. All other pages with list character, like disambiguation pages, outlines and the elusive "navigational list" pages should be discussed elsewhere. Alternatively, and I'm warming up to the idea as I'm writing this, we could redefine stand-alone lists to be any page (article or not) with list character and create a page called Wikipedia:Manual of Style/List articles, discussing stand-alone lists that are also articles. The problem we will have to solve eventually is defining which is what. That, unlike regurgitating policy on style guideline pages using ill-defined terms, would be a step in the right direction. Goodraise 03:09, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
"Non-navigational lists" == "pages with list character intended to be articles". This guideline doesn't apply to those any other kind of page, and the point of this phrase is to indicate that all this stuff about providing citations to list-articles doesn't apply to list-shaped-non-articles, either. We do not want someone to cite this guideline as advice on what to do for a dab page or outline.
I honestly do not expect any good-faith experienced editor to have much trouble figuring out whether a particular list is navigational in nature. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:29, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
Well, then we can simply state explicitly that disambiguation pages and outlines are not covered by this guideline. First half of the problem solved. Leaves only the navigational natured non-article list pages. Perhaps you could give an example of such a page. I haven't come across any of those yet. Goodraise 04:09, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
Other guidelines, and other parts of this guideline, make reference to the existence of lists that are primarily intended to be navigational rather than informational, and I see no reason to pretend that they don't exist merely because you've never seen a list that you personally would classify that way. If you'd like an example, I have no idea how most editors would choose to classify Acute leukemia. Is that a list at all? A surprisingly information-free informational list? A very functional navigational list? Additionally, some editors feel that this page ought to apply to navboxes, which have a list character and obviously have a primary function of navigation. Rather than naming each and every possible permutation of a navigational list, I think it better to merely state that if the page's purpose is, in your best judgment, primarily navigational, then this section does not apply. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:23, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
"Other guidelines"? Name them please, so I can read them for myself. I'll assume (correct me if I'm wrong) with "other parts of this guideline" you mean the sentence "These should only be created if a complete list is reasonably short (less than 32K) and could be useful (e.g., for navigation) or interesting to readers." This is not a reference to navigational natured non-article lists, but to a particular kind of stand-alone list (aka. list article). Most editors (including me) would classify Acute leukemia as a set index article. It even links there itself, using {{SIA}}. Goodraise 05:20, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
  • This conversation started at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Lists#Should_every_single_item_on_a_list_have_a_reference.3F. We just need to clearly state you don't need a reference for every single item on a list. And that you shouldn't remove items just because there isn't a reference, but instead because you looked at them, and honestly don't believe they belong there. Dream Focus 00:04, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
    Perhaps a discussion about when to challenge material would be appropriate. What do you think of something with this sort of basic meaning:
    "As with other articles, you may WP:CHALLENGE material that you believe is inaccurate or unverifiable by {{fact}}-tagging it, discussing it on the talk page, removing it, etc. As with other articles, you should not, however, challenge material that you are reasonably convinced is accurate and possible to verify in reliable sources merely because the page is WP:NOTDONE/the citations have not been typed in. In those instances, you should follow the WP:Editing policy's instructions on how to WP:PRESERVE information and collaborate with others to improve the list. This is particularly important for older lists, because the community's policies once prohibited the addition of sources to lists."
    That last sentence, BTW, is something I remember running across once, but I don't know where it was or how accurate it is (e.g., if I saw it in an old policy or if I saw someone [possibly erroneously] claiming this). So while I believe it to be true, if we add it, it should probably be followed by a link to an old version of a policy that actually says that. I don't want to accidentally start a false rumor. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:30, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
    I will say that consistency is important. Either no items on the list are cited (either due to being assumed common knowledge, can be determined by click-thru to the linked article, or by the presences of a few references that spell out the contents of the entire list and thus in the lead into the list) or every item on the list is cited. The only case where I can see partial citation being appropriate is if the list, based on assumed common knowledge, is made up of a combination of topics with their own article (blue-linked) and unlinked/redlinked ones. In such cases, every unlinked/redlinked topic absolutely needs a cite even if the fact is presumed common knowledge, since there's no article for the reader to confirm against. --MASEM (t) 22:43, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
    Why is consistency important? I thought that it was the hobgoblin of little minds. Citations exist to communicate necessary information. They are not decorative elements. Whether it looks funny to have some provided with inline citations and others left uncited is unimportant. If List of fruits wants to include a citation for Honeysuckle, which most people associate with flowers, and not for Apple, then I have no objection to their choice. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:00, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
    It avoids the issue of people landmining {{cn}} tags across a list when the intent of the list is meant to be common knowledge, and acknowledging that when we are linking to an article, we are implicitly providing a way for people to find the sources to support that fact if its common sense. For example, in a List of fruit, as most are obvious either as common sense or from a simple gloss over the sources, it doesn't matter that the fact about the honeysuckle is not well know, but most of the rest of the list is, so it's not necessary. It probably becomes more important in the controversial lists. Say there was a "List of LBGT musicians". It's "common knowledge" that someone like Elton John and k.d. lang are on there, but most of the rest aren't, nor is it a type of fact immediately obvious or necessary to summarize quickly when talking about an artist. So in such a list, most of the other artists will have a source, but it then makes no sense to leave the "obvious" ones bare to be gamed by editors with a chip on their shoulder demanding proof. Yes, easy to add, but a properly-formed list on such a non-common knowledge should have this from the start. --MASEM (t) 00:19, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
    Removing the citation from the Honeysuckle entry is not going to stop tagbombers; if anything, it's going to encourage people to remove the accurate entry, in perfectly good faith and due entirely to their own ignorance that the "flower" produces berries. Removing citations to non-common knowledge does not improve the list, and it does risk damage to the list. And if you need a citation on Honeysuckle—say, because that particular entry was challenged and therefore the policy now requires it to perpetually bear an inline citation—then it would be beyond silly to lard the entire rest of the list with citations merely to make it "consistent". WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:23, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

[edit] Images in list of people

There is discussion here, regarding the deletion of images from a list of people, that might interest readers of this page.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:31, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

[edit] Fiction

When is it okay to mix fictional list entries with real ones? Like if there's a list of a certain kind of people, is it okay to add fictional characters in there? — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 08:19, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Probably almost never, or called out in a different section to be clear that one set is real, one set is fictional. --MASEM (t) 13:31, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. I'm guessing that means Gregory House shouldn't be on List of Johns Hopkins University people, at least not between real people. An editor objected to me removing him from the list. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 15:42, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Absolutely. That's really really bad OR or synthesis to put a fictional character on that list. One consideration is to consider if there are notable uses of John Hopkins in fiction in general (one being that Dr. House is stated to be there), and have that as a subsection of the main university article, or "John Hopkins University in fiction" or something like that. But definitely not the mix-match you suggest. --MASEM (t) 16:30, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Stand-alone_lists&oldid=474805668"
Personal tools
Namespaces
Variants
Actions
Navigation
Interaction
Toolbox
Print/export