Wikipedia talk:Today's featured article

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I am used to seeing a line on the talk page like "is on the Main page" on TFA day. Today, it says "will appear". However, if I edit the article, I get the correct ""Tintin in the Congo" is today's featured article." --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:18, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

It always helps if you put links to pages you're talking about. Talk:Tintin in the Congo is displaying correctly for me, so I suspect you simply needed to purge your cache (and editing the page would fix that). Anyway, you missed the real problem, which is that the message generated is "This article is currently on on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article". I have left a message for the person who has rewritten the template to change "on on" to "on" fixed the problem myself. BencherliteTalk 11:27, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
Thank you. Not that I understand everything you said but it displays correctly now without me doing anything. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:46, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
I'll try and explain. (1) You had been to that talk page before at some point when the TFA appearance was pending and had been marked as such in the {{article history}}. (2) When you did this, your internet browser loaded a copy of the talk page, which included loading a copy of the article history template which had the words "will appear". (3) You went back to the talk page today. (4) Your internet browser did not load a brand-new version of the article history template for that talk page, but reused the one stored in its cache, hence the words "will appear" still showed on your screen, but on nobody else's. (5) For anyone else visiting the talk page today who had not visited the page previously [such as me], their browser loaded a fresh version of the talk page and the template, which said that the article is currently on the main page. (6) Only you had the problem that the talk page still said "will appear" because it was a problem with your internet browser, not with Wikipedia. Such problems are common and can be fixed by following the instructions about purging your cache. (7) The separate problem, of the article history saying "This article is currently on on [duplicated word] Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article", has been fixed. BencherliteTalk 14:08, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
Thank you again. I understood all of the above but not that it appeared correctly without me purging or editing, but don't have to. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:57, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Quick note on copyediting lead sections[edit]

Just a note to say that, before now, I haven't been doing a lot with copyediting the lead sections of articles before their TFA day, and now I'm starting a phase where I'm going to be leaning in the other direction and doing (arguably) more than the minimum that needs doing. The point of this phase is to generate a lot of examples of what might or might not need doing, so that we can talk about it later and see if there's something like consensus on just how much should be done. I'm not asserting some kind of right to rewrite lead sections to suit me ... I'm just noting that there's a job here that wasn't getting done. (Bencherlite has goaded me into tackling this now, but it was going to have to happen sooner or later.) - Dank (push to talk) 18:05, 26 February 2015 (UTC)


For a little over two years, the TFA paragraph on the Main Page has ended with "(Full article...)" (with a link). I'd like to remove the ellipsis, but Bencherlite believes we have a long-standing consensus for it. I don't. The discussion that produced that is at Talk:Main Page/Archive 171#Featured article link. Note that mention of the ellipsis is missing from the entire discussion, until the end:

It's a shame that the "..." is completely gone now. Would it not be possible to have "(Read the full article...)" and "(Read the full list...)"? It's kinda more inviting... and it lures you in... and urges you to read further... — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 21:13, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
I agree with the IP that this would be a good change, space permitting... --Bongwarrior (talk) 00:14, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

And that's all there was; the TFA coords Dabomb then decided it should be in the current form. There's a lot I could say about this, but let's keep it simple if we can: could someone give me an example in professionally copyedited text of "X..." meaning "You will find the thing X if you click here"? ("More..." doesn't count ... that and "More to come..." are set phrases that gained traction in, as I recall, the 80s. What we had was fine for the first 9 years of TFA.) - Dank (push to talk) 19:56, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

The Times use the ellipis on their article blurbs, which is the one I know off the top of my head... - SchroCat (talk) 20:26, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Right, that's an example of what ellipses usually mean ("we're breaking in the middle of a sentence, off in mid-discussion, the rest is somewhere else"). I can't recall seeing a use of ellipses in the sense they're being used in "Full article..." (outside of the "More..." set phrase), but I don't read as much as I used to, and I often find these days that I'm not up on some new trend, maybe I'm missing this one too. - Dank (push to talk) 20:39, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure that covers what The Times '​s practice is – I've seen the end of a sentence followed by the ellipsis. My personal reference would be to retain it, fwiw. – SchroCat (talk) 20:43, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Okay, I changed my wording to "breaking off in mid-discussion" (in the middle of a sentence or not). There's actually a well-known reason I'm asking for examples rather than opinions ... the brain deals with orthography (punctuation, spelling, capitalization, etc.) in a different way than it deals with words. After even a very brief exposure to odd orthography, people will swear that they've seen it before and that it's perfectly okay. This isn't an example of our brains being stupid ... the most efficient way to write and read is to grab the meaning and put all the extraneous stuff (including orthography) out of your mind. This is what gives copyeditors fits ... we're constantly struggling with people who are completely positive that something is commonplace, but somehow can't find any examples of what they're talking about. - Dank (push to talk) 20:52, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
The only other thing I'll add is that we are not constrained by what other sites/publishers do and don't do: we are mature enough to have our own unique MoS and can use whatever punctuation we want in any way we want. I agree with the IP from a couple of years ago - "It's kinda more inviting... and it lures you in... and urges you to read further..." and if it makes people want to read further, that's good enough for me. - SchroCat (talk) 21:05, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
That's a whole 'nuther conversation ... and a fun one ... but I think it muddies the issue here, Schro. - Dank (push to talk) 21:20, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
I don't think it muddies it at all: it's a rather important factor that needs to be considered. We do not need to follow other style guides because we have our own, and if we want to use the triple dot as an "inviter" to read more, then we are entirely able to. - SchroCat (talk) 21:32, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
An example is just a click away. There is a human-computer interface design paradigm that items that generate another page or dialog should end in an ellipsis. That's why your File menu says "Exit" but "Save Page As..." Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:01, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
That looks like an example of my point, not your point, Hawkeye. The ellipsis is used for an incomplete sentence, as usual, but not for "Exit", which is a complete thought, again as usual. Can you give me a link of what you're talking about so I can check? - Dank (push to talk) 21:16, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
(e/c with Hawkeye x 2) Personally I'm not sure I see much of a difference between "breaking off in mid-discussion, the rest is somewhere else" and (Full article...) at the end of a blurb, pointing from a very abbreviated summary of an article to the whole thing. There's a separate issue of whether the ellipsis should be preceded by a space, as per WP:ELLIPSIS, but that's secondary of course to whether there should be dots at all. I prefer having an ellipsis as a guide into the full article, as has been done since the start of TFAs, but have no strong views on whether it should be preceded by a space or not. Incidentally, you've overlooked that some of the participants in the 2012 discussion put forward options that included "...", and nobody spoke out against them; you're also incorrect in referring to "TFA coords" in the plural, since at that time the title was "TFA delegate" and (more importantly) was only held by Dabomb, as it predated my appointment. I have left messages at T:MP, WT:FAC, WT:FLC, and WT:TFAR, since this isn't something that the small number who watch this page ought to have a monopoly on deciding. BencherliteTalk 21:03, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Apologies, I struck "coords" and added "Dabomb". And no, I didn't overlook that some suggested ellipses; they suggested ellipses used in the usual sense, except in the set phrases "More..." or "Continue...". They left off ellipses in the other cases. No one spoke out against them because, in that discussion, they were used in the usual way, until the very end (the two comments I quoted above). - Dank (push to talk) 21:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

My partner John just put an interesting spin on this that I hadn't picked up on ... he's never seen ellipses in the sense used here either, so he thought it was in the nature of an emoticon ... the equivalent of adding a chat-room wink, or in this case, a special symbol that means "there's more coming" in a chat. I have no objection to that usage at all ... if that's the tone you're looking for, a chatroom rather than something professionally copyedited. In that case, perhaps I should start every TFA paragraph with "Hey you guys, check this out!" - Dank (push to talk) 21:59, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Great strawman argument, Dan! BencherliteTalk 22:06, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Uh, no, I only meant to bring up the point that we need to look at tone as well as meaning. I only have the one argument, but it's a good one. Btw ... I'm kind of surprised this is so hard, and I've learned a useful lesson here I think, I'll stay away from hard orthography questions in lead sections (though of course I'll do the best I can in the TFA paragraphs). - Dank (push to talk) 01:20, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I would question if the issue is worth the time spent on it. If the blurb doesn't sell the reader on continuing to the article itself, what good will ellipses do?--Wehwalt (talk) 22:57, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I learned from Mandarax that an ellipsis added without a space to a word indicates that something is missing of that word, - otherwise it would need a space - after "article". Otherwise I don't care, with ellipsis or without. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:28, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support removal -- If the link in bold is still there for the reader that says Full article, then I think it's a good idea to remove the three little dots after that. Also agree with Wehwalt (talk · contribs), about if the blurb doesn't entice the reader to read the article and click-over to it, those three little dots won't, either. Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 23:37, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Seriously? I find myself in agreement with Wehwalt (and regret the time spent reading this discussion). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:14, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
    • If you're in agreement with Wehwalt, then I've accomplished something at least. - Dank (push to talk) 01:22, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
I don't think that's funny.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:15, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
I don't understand. I struck, and I'll come ask what's up. - Dank (push to talk) 13:20, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

It looks like this is going down in flames ... I'd like to withdraw the proposal, with some observations.

  • There are lots of copyediting questions I could have asked here. Some thought this was a poor one to lead with, and at this point, I agree.
  • We don't have many copyeditors on Wikipedia, and the ones we have usually don't offer their services freely to nominators. A few people (no one here) regard copyeditors mostly as the obstacles they're trying to get past so they can get that star or whatever, as the people who are keeping them from saying what they want to say the way they want to say it. It's true that some copyeditors are kind of a pain, and the whole profession is a bit stuffy. The better copyeditors help writers make their writing bulletproof, so that their readership doesn't misunderstand it, misrepresent it, rewrite it, or look down on it for irrelevant reasons. One of the best ways to increase throughput at FAC and make the experience more pleasant and more focused on the things that actually count (i.e., not focused on copyediting) would be to recruit more copyediters. But I suspect they're not going to come until more Wikipedians get some insight into how copyeditors go about their jobs and arrive at answers (answers that you're free to reject, of course). That's all I'm going to say about that for now. I'm pessimistic about quick resolutions to this problem, but optimistic about the long term. - Dank (push to talk) 18:40, 27 February 2015 (UTC)