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viewtalkeditchanges

Leaflet for Wikiproject Video Games at WIkimania 2014[edit]

Please Note: This is an updated version of a previous post that I made here

Project Leaflet WikiProject Medicine back and front v1.png

Hi all,

My name is Adi Khajuria and I am helping out with Wikimania 2014 in London.

One of our initiatives is to create leaflets to increase the discoverability of various wikimedia projects, and showcase the breadth of activity within wikimedia. Any kind of project can have a physical paper leaflet designed - for free - as a tool to help recruit new contributors. These leaflets will be printed at Wikimania 2014, and the designs can be re-used in the future at other events and locations.

This is particularly aimed at highlighting less discoverable but successful projects, e.g:

• Active Wikiprojects: Wikiproject Medicine, WikiProject Video Games, Wikiproject Film

• Tech projects/Tools, which may be looking for either users or developers.

• Less known major projects: Wikinews, Wikidata, Wikivoyage, etc.

• Wiki Loves Parliaments, Wiki Loves Monuments, Wiki Loves ____

• Wikimedia thematic organisations, Wikiwomen’s Collaborative, The Signpost

For more information or to sign up for one for your project, go to:
Project leaflets
Adikhajuria (talk) 09:30, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

@Adikhajuria: I would gladly help out with this. Would you like us to design our own pamphlets, or will you be doing that? I can design one for us (no gradients, Comic Sans, or WordArt, I promise), assuming someone can help write our description. I'd also ask that you remove the "https://" from the URL on the pamphlets, if you haven't already.
As to the actual printing of these, will it simply be double-sided, or a folded paper with 4 sides?
Thanks, Nicereddy (talk) 04:54, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
No WordArt?! But that's the best part! Never fear; I can help you pick out the finest clipart and low-resolution JPEGs the Internet has to offer. And if you don't like Comic Sans, I know how to make effective use of Papyrus, Souvenir, Brush Script, and Hobo. With Tezero's help, you won't even miss the WordArt. Tezero (talk) 04:59, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Nicereddy, If possible, it would be good if you could design it please. Be advised that the submission deadline is 1st July. To answer your other question, we will be printing them double-sided.Adikhajuria (talk) 09:09, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
@Adikhajuria: Thanks, I'll get to work on it. The deadline shouldn't be too much of a problem. Two questions though: What size (in inches or centimeters, preferably) will each side of the pamphlet be? The WikiProject Medicine pamphlet has an odd resolution. And what format would you like it in? PDF, TIF, etc? --Nicereddy (talk) 00:58, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
@Tezero: Amateur. No Wingdings? No Syncopate? No Curlz? --Nicereddy (talk) 00:58, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
@Nicereddy: Playing in the big leagues, eh? Looks like you're ready for the intermediate-level techniques. For a nominal pennance, I can tutor you privately in the beauty of yellow text on a white background, 72-point Times New Roman, placing images so that they partially cover text and run off the page, and what I like to call the O.H.M.Y.E.Y.E.S. process. Tezero (talk) 01:14, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
@Adikhajuria: I've got a rough draft down, same size ratio as the WikiProject Medicine leaflet. Here's a link. I've used all free fonts, tried to limit myself to a simple color scheme, and the Space Invaders alien is iconic, copyright-free (the simple shape can't be copyrighted), and shows no obvious preference towards any platform or company. I didn't use the WPVG logo because it's outdated and hard to work with, and likely would have scared contributors away, since it'd be the primary graphical element on the pamphlet. I still need more for the second page, but I figured this was a good enough draft to share. Feedback is appreciated! --Nicereddy (talk) 07:37, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
@Nicereddy: I've sent off the design to the people making the leaflets. I had a look and a I really liked the design, I think it looks cool and will attract a lot of people.

All,
As you know, the deadline to submit a leaflet has passed. I know that Nicereddy sent me a rough design. However, nobody has submitted a leaflet to the link that I shared nearer to the top of the section. With that said, if you do submit before 3rd July 2014, then we will still accept your submission.
Kind regards,
Adikhajuria (talk) 09:35, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Indie task force icon[edit]

The Fez icon was implemented for Indie Task Force at {{WPVG}}. Consensus to have an icon for the task force is clear. For the choice of an icon, while alternatives were suggested, there is little opposition to the Fez icon. -- ferret (talk) 18:08, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Fez (video game) "BIG GOMEZ".png The indie task force doesn't have a {{WPVG}} icon. I tried looking for one before but I couldn't find anything great. I realized today that we have this image from Fez that could be really good. Consensus? czar  16:52, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Channeling a specific game rubs me the wrong way. Could we create a generic 8-bit puzzle-platformer protagonist or something? Tezero (talk) 16:55, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
The task force really doesn't need an icon. Plus what good will it do? it would be too obscure to appreciate. Lucia Black (talk) 16:58, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
The icons ostensibly call out the item in the {{WPVG}} banner. I figure that Fez and Super Meat Boy are the most iconic as far as indie games go (at least in its current definition), but we have free use images for the former and not the latter. I didn't think anyone would be against it, but I thought I'd ask in case someone had a better suggestion. czar  17:26, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
Its something that's just wasting time, we should be improving articles, not worry about an icon to represent indie games (which no matter how iconic they are, will never represent completely what indie games are). most taskforce don't get an icon and that's fine. its not like a fully established wikiproject. Lets just please drop this and move onto something more important. Lucia Black (talk) 17:32, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
Calm down, its a volunteer project; there's no such thing as "wasting time". You can't assume that any time spent on something you don't care for would have otherwise been spent on article writing rather than, say, playing video games. Anyways. I agree with Tezero; I'm not a fan of using a specific video game character for an icon. --PresN 17:50, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
You can volunteer to waste time. And you know you didn't counter my point. this...is..a...waste...of...time..period. Lets move on. and not speak of it again. Or would you want to waste time arguing about the obvious for the sake of devil's advocacy? I'm not wrong, only in theory. Lucia Black (talk) 01:52, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
I'm not playing devil's advocate- you're wrong in fact, not theory. Why is it a waste of time? For bonus points, make sure your answer doesn't implicate the time you spent responding to this thread as also a waste of time. --PresN 03:07, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
It's not a waste of time. If you don't want to "waste your time discussing it", then don't. Do something else, and let them handle it.Sergecross73 msg me 03:11, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
I agree with PresN and Tezero too. Shouldn't single out a single game/series. Sergecross73 msg me 03:11, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Any suggestions for a more neutral image? czar  03:46, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

As kind of an unconventional idea, what about a cursor dragging a generic enemy (maybe resembling a Goomba/one of those lion things from Braid) onto something, with a dotted square around the enemy to show that it's being selected rather than clicked on? This would all be magnified to cover most of a computer screen. Y'know, level design. Tezero (talk) 04:33, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps, though it sounds a bit complicated for low resolution. Alternatively, here are some Noun Project hits: independent, 8-bit, i. I also still think the Fez icon is iconic enough, if anyone were to change their minds czar  05:22, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
No, false representation of indie games. Fez isn't the definition of indie games, and again, visually, there is nothing that defines indie games. this is pointless, and should be dropped. Also, poor reasoning to use Fez. there are NFC rules that can't be used for wikipedia. which is why Nintendo's icon isn't the complete logo, and the Xbox image is also made by someone else. Its a real issue. No image is the best option. Lucia Black (talk) 05:26, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Well, the Fez images aren't NFC; they're freely licensed. That being said, I wouldn't put it past Phil Fish to try to re-invoke a copyright claim on his game's imagery, which adds slightly to me being uncomfortable about the use of the Fez logo. Tezero (talk) 06:48, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

@PresN: @Sergecross73: I wont back down on this if it means not seeing another pointless discussion again. I will stay here to prove how much of a waste it really is. @PresN, i KNOW you're playing devil's advocate by the way you structured your question. This isn't for the better, this is just an additional extra that wont optimize editing articles. It provides no benefit whatsoever to wikipedia. With that said, if i can get the consensus that this is a waste of time, it will optimize editing in the wikiproject for more relevant discussions, rather than pointless ones.

Objectively, we are talking about creating an icon to represent a taskforce focusing on video games that are not supported financially by a video game publisher. Now what image could we possibly add to represent indie games where editors would know instantly the meaning of the image? Indie games aren't bound by cult status or by genre. Its too obscure, and not "necessary", and has no real "benefit" (especially for a taskforce), therefore a true waste of time. And rather than playing devil's advocacy, you should go do something constructive, like fix a real article, or provide images to articles that need it. And if you try to deny that you're not playing devil's advocacy, then where's your evidence? where's your reasoning? I'm not playing around, i'm dead-serious, this is a genuine waste of time that shouldn't get the light of day to even get an answer. No image is my vote. Why? because theres no possible image where we can find that represents indie games with editors/readers understanding it. If you look back to the whole changing the icon of the wikiproject, that ended up being a waste of time too because the proposed images weren't neutral enough as they resembled other series. How are you going to over-generalize indie games to the point of making an image? Lucia Black (talk) 04:23, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Why does it matter whether he's playing devil's advocate? If the devil's advocacy reasoning is valid, maybe we should take it seriously. (To be clear, I don't think he is.) Tezero (talk) 04:33, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Thats like asking why does it matter to provide reasoning at all. Devil's advocacy would work well if its used to improve articles, not look waste time. Lucia Black (talk) 04:39, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
No, it's more like asking why it matters whether he's typing it high. The conclusion being valid does not depend on mental state. Whether the task force icon is a waste of time is a separate argument - and, again, you can leave (or go back to improving mainspace articles) anytime you want; we're interested in hobnobbing about this for now. Tezero (talk) 04:43, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
What possible image can you provide that provides what indie games are? the meaning is obscure and difficult to even illustrate. you would end up with probably a bigger image to describe indie games.
I still 100% believe this is a waste of time, and i wont stand to see these discussion in this wikiproject anymore. come on, give me a damn answer. what possible image can you provide that represents what a general indie game looks like? Lucia Black (talk) 04:47, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Why not just have a big old "I" as the icon? Because God sakes this project has had one another go at each others necks lately so let's just have an answer and be done with. GamerPro64 04:57, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
I see no problem using the Fez icon, at least at the present time. Fez, SMB, Limbo, Braid, Bastion, and a few other games are clear short-list titles when one thinks indie games (today), and pulling a recognizable character from them that happens to be free is fine to represent indie game development. If tomorrow's next big indie comes out with a much more recognized element that happens to be free, we can swap it in then. --MASEM (t) 05:00, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
This is an issue, i know you've been apart of in the past, such as nintendo and other using direct logos or sprites. Indie games aren't defined by the most popular indie game there is. and that really doesn't make sense to do. if you're all looking for an answer, i suggest not having one at all. Elephant in the room. don't ignore it. kick it out. Lucia Black (talk) 05:02, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
I'm going by the gaming press that when they do overviews of indie gaming, nearly always use the lead characters from these games with their articles because they represent the success of indie gaming toay. --MASEM (t) 05:42, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
They provide is as an example, not to represent all indie games. and this happens for every genre aswell such as First-person shooters, and RPGS. But we don't put sprites of Call of Duty or Final Fantasy now do we? lets be reasonable. There really isn't anything that can concretely define indie games visually other that they are games which the current VG controller on this wikiproject suffices fine. Lucia Black (talk) 05:45, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
The story of Fez is the key matter of the Indie Game Movie, and it's well documented to be one of the poster children for the industry. As there is nothing else concrete that can be used, there's zero problems in using what happens to be a free image of this poster child for the task force. (if we didn't have one of these poster-children games with any free resources I would agree we would forego the icons. Similarly, if the only free resources we had were of non-important indie games (ala the free resources we have from Dustforce), I would also say forego. But to be able to use the Fez icon is a matter of the stars aligning correctly that we have a near perfect icon to represent the task force. --MASEM (t) 06:10, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
A few points: 1) Final Fantasy actually has a unique, editor-created icon: (File:FF project logo.svg), as does the Square Enix project: (File:Wikiproject Square Enix.svg). I'm not sure what your point was there. 2) I'm not playing devil's advocate, as I explicitly told you; I think making an icon for a project is a fun, harmless project and I can't imagine why you or anyone would flip out over the idea that someone else would spend time doing so 3) You "won't stand to see these discussions in this wikiproject anymore"? This is the first time anyone's discussed a task force logo here. Ever. You've now literally spent more time ranting about this issue than the entire history of VG taskforce logo discussions. 4) Are you seriously ranting and freaking out about a tiny logo for a taskforce? --PresN 06:23, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

I've changed my mind, mainly due to bizarre opposition- I'm now in favor of the Fez icon for the indie task force. Unless someone comes up with a better idea, I'll help out with the implementation in a few days when this tempest in a thimble peters out. --PresN 06:23, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

@PresN, Masem: you know there's a difference between FF representing FF, and SE representing SE. what we don't have is Mario representing platformers, and we shouldn't have Fez representing Indie games, especially when it doesn't really describe what an indie game is. This is the part you all seem to ignore: that visually, indie games have nothing to identify itself. Not even Fez, because even if you could make the claim that Fez is an iconic indie game, the game does nothing to describe what an indie game is visually, so the icon is useless of Fez is useless...i think you're all just wanting an image to represent the taskforce more than caring how you represent the term. Lucia Black (talk) 08:45, 23 June 2014 (UTC)


I'm not in favour of having a character from one game represent such a diverse subject, good icons are ones that boil down to the common things in the group; The WPVG logo isn't Nintendo or EA, it isn't Sonic or Mario, its a controller, something common to everyone, across all game types and all platforms. I think the Indie logo should be a generic or symbolic icon, the fact there are no copyright issues with the Fez icon seems to be skewing the debate and the addition of the pig-headedness (both sides) that's flying around isn't helping one bit, in fact this thread is starting to look a bit like the Mega Drive talk page.

Now as regards suggestions for the icon: How do we find an icon for an article that starts "There is no exact widely accepted definition of what constitutes an "indie game"."? Listing the characteristics of and 'Indie' from the article we have the following:

  1. individuals, small teams, or small independent companies
  2. smaller than mainstream titles
  3. not financially backed by video game publishers
  4. little to no budget available
  5. no creative limitations
  6. innovation, creativity, and artistic experimentation
  7. can be of poor quality
  8. may not be made for profit

not much to work on, but some suggestions:

  1. One to three people, half of the icon black and white, the other half a riot of colour (think File:User icon 2.svg icon) (signifies small teams and creative freedom)
  2. A crossed out dollar sign (to signify low budgets and labour of love)
  3. 85% (to signify the cut of sales indies get over publisher controlled titles)
  4. A giant letter I, with a riot of colour and artistic styling (Creative freedom)
  5. A puppet with it's strings cut(e.g. File:Puppeter template.svg) (to signify independence)

Nothing spectacular I'll grant you, but other people can bounce off them. - X201 (talk) 08:47, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

The most technical true term is that they have no publisher supporting the game financially. the rest is really up to debate. whats to say a normal non-indie game can't be innovative, creative, and provide labour of love, or have any freedom? I will say that some notable and iconic indie games usually are innovative, or just interesting, however i disagree that innovative and creativity defines all indie games. all those ideas for indie games taskforce icon only highlight the "indie" not the "games" part. And need i remind that its really obscure meaning.
I still say we move on, let this go, and stop trying to prove a point. Indie games can't be represented visually because its not determined by the visuals of the game, or even what console its on, its determined by the roots of the game. Lucia Black (talk) 09:14, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
I agree; that's why I suggested the level design idea, and actually, I'm rather fond of the Noun Project's "Independent" logo, one of czar's suggestions. Me opposing the use of the Fez image doesn't mean a whole lot consensus-wise, but I'll try to draw up what I'm talking about anyway. Tezero (talk) 16:08, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Note that I'm not against another idea if it captures the idea of Indie well, just that I think that there are also good arguments to use the Fez image if we can't find another. --MASEM (t) 16:23, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm swayed by Masem and PresN. I don't oppose Fez's use here. It's the closest thing to indie games having an iconic image, and it can be changed if something better comes up in the future. Sergecross73 msg me 10:42, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

The closest thing would be no image at all. I swear, you all intentionally disrupt wikipedia just to get your way. Lucia Black (talk) 11:03, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
No one here is being disruptive. This is all good, on-topic discussion of a valid topic. Pretty much the opposite of "disruptive". Sergecross73 msg me 15:39, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
You pretty much ignored every point i made, and right now, the argument is "hey, any image regardless of how inaccurate is better than no image" which really, doesn't mean much. Lucia Black (talk) 21:50, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
That wouldn't not mean much; it'd simply mean that we're desperate to have an image. But I don't think "any image regardless of how inaccurate is better than no image" is what any of us are saying; I, for one, wouldn't support representing indie games with an image of a maple leaf, an alligator penis, or the hat Aretha Franklin wore to Obama's inauguration. Fez, however, does do a pretty copacetic job of representing indie games, since it's a recognizable game with a pretty typical indie aesthetic. I just happen to think we can probably do better. Tezero (talk) 22:12, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
"Not siding with Lucia", as much as you don't like it, is not a form of disruptive editing. Ironically, you're the one who keeps getting us off-topic, and you've helped sway at least two people against your stance. You probably want to rethink your approach here... Sergecross73 msg me 23:56, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

@Sergecross73:I'm trying to optimize the wikiproject, here's the only compromise i'll consider: have these irrelevant discussion in the taskforce page. And whether you claim its not disruptive, it truly is a waste of time. It really is disruptive in the sense that you're not going to find an image that's going to be perfect for indie games, and in the past we've had similar issues with other and their better left not provided.

@Tezero: Although Fez is a popular series and iconic one of what a successful Indie game looks like, the vast majority aren't successful and don't always look like Fez. This is the reason why i strongly insist on "no image" because the reality is no image could possibly represent what an indie game looks like, because again, indie games aren't bound by appearance. There's nothing we can possibly use. and like X201 has also reasoned with not using other series to represent other genres. and yet we have other taskforce within the project that don't have images, such as the Adventure game task force, and Visual Novels.

Another point not to use an image is that our WP:VG box is already pretty big. an additional image would just be unnecessary. If i had to think of any image that can possibly work is having the controller with a business man and a dollar sign together crossed out. but thats about it. But thats the only image i would support that i believe best explains what an indie game technically is. but even then, i'm still against using one at all....Whether you get an image or not, i ask this be moved to the taskforce discussion and keep more broader issues relating to articles here. Lucia Black (talk) 03:03, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

(This falls under the scope of WP:VG, and moving the discussion to a much less populated discussion area, mid discussion no less, isn't going to solve anything. The discussion will not be moved, its fine right here.) Sergecross73 msg me 03:42, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Moving it to a much less populated area doesn't matter, unless you 'want' more outside input, no one else seems to care. And you can always "canvass" the discussion. here. but having the actual discussion here is pointless. And its not really up to you whether it gets moved. You can say you dont want it to be moved, but you don't get to make the decision. neither do i, which is why i'm suggesting it.

Regardless, i gave my input of another option that makes more sense. and its far more technical, will it come across perfectly? no, but its as close as it can get. thats the only idea of an image i can support. but Lucia Black (talk) 03:50, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

For the record, there is no task force talk page. They were redirected here with the recent cleanup. I didn't think anyone other than the indie task force regulars would even care to chime in on this czar  04:02, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Which makes it even less necessary for an image of a taskforce that has no purpose but to show off that it exists. Lucia Black (talk) 04:35, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
All the more reason why moving the the discussion was a terrible suggestion. Alright, Lucia, it's noted, you're against the idea. Now please allow for others to have heir input and stop derailing the discussion. Thanks. Sergecross73 msg me 10:47, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
No, all the more reason why this is pointless to even search for. look its a difficult thing to even do, the image will either be innacurate, or obscure (uness you like my idea of the image), but overall useless. you're avoiding discussing it because you just don't want to admit to the truth, but it has to come out. Thats whats going to end this discussion. If you wont, i'll stay here, unti other members realize the it. Lucia Black (talk) 10:49, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
While your contentious persona does not nullify your arguments, I think it will predispose new viewers of the discussion against you; you may be waiting until it closes for "other members [to] realize the [sic] it." I don't mind if you continue to counter others' claims as necessary, but please do not belittle those users or the fact that this discussion is taking place - it's clearly controversial, so by definition it makes sense for us to try to reach an agreement here. Tezero (talk) 03:56, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Admit this is a waste of time (because it really is), there's no benefit to it, the current options for an image are either A) obscure, or B) misleading, and finally that you're just doing this to satisfy yourselves. (and thats not belittling you, its the hoenst truth, admit it, and i wont reply back). Lucia Black (talk) 04:43, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Tezero that highlighting a specific game - even an iconic or representative one - rubs me the wrong way. I prefer GP64's "big old 'I'" or X201's "giant letter I, with a riot of colour". I also agree with Lucia Black that having an icon in this case probably primarily serves "to show off that it exists," but I don't understand why this causes any consternation. The same rationale applies for WP:VG's userboxes, the other taskforce icons, etc. Showing off that taskforces and wikiprojects exist is how volunteer groups gain volunteers and organize. Icons, userboxes, and banners, etc. also foster community spirit and identity. Even if there is no ultimate resolution to this discussion it should be obvious to any cynic that there is benefit in such a thread as something to point to should the issue arise again. I think it's time to drop the stick, Lucia. -Thibbs (talk) 12:32, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

The fact that discussion pages are gone for these task force makes me believe we should remove them altogether. unless there's a need for them. But again, i have "multiple" concerns. the banner is already big as it is, another icon would already make it unnecessarily bigger. And i personally find the fostering of community spirit enough in WP:VG itself not the taskforces. keep in mind, i'm the biggest concern is also that no image could possibly illustrate what an indie game is because again...for like the billionth time....indie games aren't a genre, their just like any other game technically....they are games that have had no real publisher financial support. Not all indie games are like Fez, or like Minecraft or even shovel knight. Lucia Black (talk) 12:43, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
I see no need for the icon to define the taskforce's scope with specificity exceeding that of other taskforces' icons like the big "M" for the MUD task force, the jigsaw puzzle pieces for the Adventure games task force, or the knight piece for the Strategy games task force. As far as size is concerned, the full banner is never used so readability shouldn't be impacted. As things stand now there is already an empty spot waiting for an icon. No additional space would be needed. Are you just talking about the page's number of bytes (currently at 13,920 - well below previously identified page size issues)? -Thibbs (talk) 13:36, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Letters just don't convey anything. So having an "i" for indie could be interpreted wrong, and having an "M" for mUD is even more obscure as its an acronym. A jigsaw puzzle piece for adventure game wouldn't fit unless it was a puzzle game, and maybe a chess piece would work for strategy. but that's a concrete genre. So i'm highly against all that is proposed except for strategy, but even then is there really a need? if someone likes indie games and works on them, wouldn't it be enough to have userbox to identify yourselves?

Its a really unnecessary thing, and i honestly believe its harmful because the ideas given are just too obscure and misinterpretation of what makes these genres/terms. Lucia Black (talk) 14:35, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

But i'm talking about length, especially when an article takes up to two banners for being part of multiple projects. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucia Black (talkcontribs)

For the record the MUD task force's "M" icon, the Adventure games task force's jigsaw puzzle pieces icon, and the Strategy games task force's chess piece icon aren't currently proposals. They were implemented in 2010, 2012, and 2011 respectively. -Thibbs (talk) 00:55, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
I cannot see a case where one of our banners will take up more than three lines (even more than two) for task force representation. And if that is a case, we still have the WP Banner Shell template that can collapse that. But that's also on a talk page so size is not an issue there. --MASEM (t) 14:50, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
there are other points you're not addressing. But i believe we don't need task forces if they just direct to here. but again, the fact that the best options (according to the consensus) are the more harmful ones. Lucia Black (talk) 14:57, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Now that you mention it, I'm not sure there's too much point to maintaining the task force pages if their talk pages were redirected, either. I suppose it depends on whether anyone's still active in them, on a case-by-case basis, but in those cases they should probably get their talk pages back as well, if they want them. Tezero (talk) 16:43, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
"Harmful" strikes me as rather melodramatic. We're talking about an image for a task force here... Sergecross73 msg me 00:35, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Harmful for a lack of a better word for: "Someone who selfishly just wants any image, even if it misinterprets what an indie game is." Lucia Black (talk) 06:51, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
"Selfish" sounds like a poorly chosen word too. No wonder I can't understand your POV....it doesn't seem like you do either... Sergecross73 msg me 10:31, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

This only benefits your own personal wants, not the overall needs. Selfish indeed fits the bill. So whether you think selfish is a poor choice of word, the point still remains the same. I'm sure you "can" understand my POV if you chose to listen to the points against it. and i believe this wikiproject needs to ostracize these type of discussions. Right now we have the worst icons for these taskforces. a puzzle piece for adventure? an M for "M.U.D" (really? converting an acronym into another for the sake of an icon?) Really, VG has one of the worst icon images for taskforce, and i'm not even exaggerating and its probably for the sake of having them, not because they need them. Another problem is why even have taskforces when they direct back to here? Lucia Black (talk) 16:15, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

There's nothing remotely selfish about coming to a community discussion page to request peer input on the design for a taskforce's group icon. Selfishness is better illustrated by an editor whose only contribution to a valid thread consists of efforts to silence her peers so that she gets her own way. -Thibbs (talk) 04:18, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
Thats how it started, but when theres no need, the ignoring phase begins, and trying to ignore all real points. And for your own "personal" desires. again i say these images (most taskforce images) are really poor, and dont illustrate anything, they dont even give a proper name to you, the editors who claim are part of these taskforces. And you've admitted this in the past. And i'm trying to get you all to admit the heavy truth. Once its admitted, i'll let it go. But if not. don't expect any less of me. Lucia Black (talk) 07:41, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
Certainly a new icon doesn't represent the topic yet. But by adopting it, it will come to represent the topic. That's how everything in life works. The "Nike Swoosh" was just called the "swoosh" before Nike adopted it. The "MacDonalds Golden Arches" were just an ugly yellow "M". The Apple logo was just an apple with a bite taken out. All of these logos came to be identified with the parent organization as a result of their adoption by the company, not due to the fact that a swoosh is international code for sportsshoe manufacturer or that there is something intrinsically humburger-related about the letter "M" or that bitten apples are any part of the definition of user-friendly PCs with rounded corners.
So yes I think we're all cognizant of the "heavy truth" that the proposed icons don't yet represent anything. But again, just as in the rest of life, there's no requirement that a proposed icon must define a complex topic in a single image. It's great if we can find such an image. If not, then a more abstract logo will quite adequately serve the same purpose of raising awareness of the taskforce and giving it identity just like all of the corporate logos do for their respective companies. In my view it's really not something worth getting all worked up about. -Thibbs (talk) 11:54, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't work that way in wikipedia. If not, then no image at all. and i'm considering this for the even more obscure ones for M.U.D., adventure game, and other taskforce that made it in for the sake of representing "something". And it gets me worked up by really trying so fricken hard just to bend the truth of it all. Lucia Black (talk) 05:46, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Given your views on other currently in-use taskforce icons that offend your sensibilities (MUD, adventure, etc.) it's evident you're aware that it does in fact work that way in Wikipedia. It seems that you are hoping to make a stand here to change what is evidently customary. I think you'll need to locate some kind of policy or guideline that supports your vision for only using icons that can be said to "define" the entirety of a taskforce's topic even when complex. If instead of personal opinions you have actual policy or guidelines that you can point to which would bar the use of icons employing any degree of abstraction then your views will gain a lot of weight. -Thibbs (talk) 11:24, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
Than this wikiproject (not the members of the project) is the biggest hypocrite in Wikipedia. If you're going to deny a different icon for a controller because it strongly resembles, than why push your way just to get your own personal satisfaction? This is indeed a waste of time, for one, do we even need a M.U.D. taskforce to erroneously use an ambiguous "M". Or do we need a Puzzle piece for Adventure games task force when the coverage is so incredibly broad that it overlaps most of the general wikipedia edits? Why even make taskforce if their not that different or have a specific strong following of editors that makes a clear distinction between WP:VG.
I recognize that these are errors continuing to influence more errors. but i will not say that this is how wikipedia should do it, because its not. and you've admitted that you're willing to endorse it as an indie-icon for the sake of having an image. and i know endorsing isn't the perfect word either, but it fits the principle. Lucia Black (talk) 00:28, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
Look, you're free to have your own point of view, but you absolutely must stop putting words in other's mouths. Stop telling people "what they know" and stop calling people hypocrites or selfish. Stick to your own viewpoints, thank you. Sergecross73 msg me 00:48, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
You know what i said, so dont go saying i called anyone anything. Selfish applies to who fits the bill. if you feel offended, its within you, not me.
You've intentionally ignored points, because you have A) no real reason to have this and B) will hurt your argument if you did. Like thibbs argument that intentionally admits no real benefit and more harm but in a more "who cares if we plaster a name to represent games that don't have that" (and there's no point saying thibbs didn't say it exactly like that because whether he used that wording or not, it doesn't change the meaning anymore ). denying there's no intention will have to mean that at this point in time you will have to bring up everything i discussed. I can believe the discussion to use these images for the other taskforce were low-key and people didn't care, but suddenly when it comes to the main wikiproject image, people suddenly care? And the reasons used for not having the WP:VG image was because of the very reasons i'm providing now. At least WP:VG should be "consistent" with the major decisions.
No image to erroneously label indie games, is better than having the closest thing but not good enough. Lucia Black (talk) 01:02, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
Not sure you're following things correctly. I'm not offended, I'm warning you to follow basic policies like WP:AGF. It's also advice; as per usual, you're just wasting your time with long, bad faith responses that don't persuade anyone. Sergecross73 msg me 01:06, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Once again, you're trying to make this about me, not about the issue. And the issue does have to do with why you're all ignoring the big issues with this. So I'm warning you to stay on topic. What are the benefits? Why Fez? Which although fairly popular, after doing some extensive search of my own, isn't that iconic as an indie game. Other games are pretty close to Fez's popularity and known as indie games such as Journey and of course, Minecraft. And also the idea of going to change the image when a more iconic image comes to mind is also a very bad one. This means we'll be getting another Discussion sometime in the future, especially when people are saying this is the age of indie games. We recently rejected a WP:VG icon that the only reason was that it was closer to a specific game console's. But now suddenly that argument goes out the window? I ask, what can i possibly assume in this situation that is good? You tell me, i'll believe it. Thats good faith.

I know you all enjoy making me the topic just because i'm the only one actually bringing an argument. Lucia Black (talk) 01:17, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

You're the only one with an argument against this. That makes your actions more akin to WP:TE and beating the dead horse. We get it, you don't like the rest of consensus' idea to use a specific icon for the Indie force, that's your opinion and fine. But as consensus seems to be on the side to include it, that's the way we will possibly go. --MASEM (t) 01:23, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
There it is. Again, ignoring the points provided. so for the sake of staying on topic. i'll quote myself.

What are the benefits? Why Fez? Which although fairly popular, after doing some extensive search of my own, isn't that iconic as an indie game. Other games are pretty close to Fez's popularity and known as indie games such as Journey and of course, Minecraft. And also the idea of going to change the image when a more iconic image comes to mind is also a very bad one. This means we'll be getting another Discussion sometime in the future, especially when people are saying this is the age of indie games. We recently rejected a WP:VG icon that the only reason was that it was closer to a specific game console's. But now suddenly that argument goes out the window? I ask, what can i possibly assume in this situation that is good? You tell me, i'll believe it. Thats good faith.

I would like this to be answered, because there are REAL redflags. Not only is the claim that Fez is currently the most iconic indie game, it also means that the image will have to change when a more iconic indie game comes to mind. if you dont enjoy making a topic out of me, then dont do it. Starting now. Lucia Black (talk) 01:30, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

I said above - there is no problem if down the road a better icon that the lead Fez character comes along. That's a discussion for another day, and discussions never hurt anyone. Your attitude is clearly what is hindering this discussion here, since everyone else seems fine with this. That's beating the dead horse to try to get your way. --MASEM (t) 01:33, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, precisely. Czar, consensus is clearly in your favor here. You're in the clear for making your suggested change. Sergecross73 msg me 01:36, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
The problem is that we will have to focus on the image time and time again, and lets not play devil's advocacy to redefine problem either (because i know how discussions like this go), it indeed a problem as it will be tedious, and not necessary.
Second, Fez isn't even the most iconic indie game. Is it featured in several indie game articles? perhaps, but other games aswell. Other games such as Shovel Knight, Journey, and Minecraft. To find out which is the more iconic is really not going to be a good idea. Or if you really want to cut corners, just not care and make the claim that "Fez" is the most iconic regardless of truth.
Third, (and this is important), you're all throwing out the previous discussion for VG icon a few months ago. So this is most important overall. Why practice one thing, and suddenly not practice it because theres something more closer to someone else's liking? And this is a bigger issue that i'm branching out to: The horrible images that currently represent tasksforces. MUD, adventure, and other taskforce probably have one of the most erroneous icons. And i don't believe taskforces are the exception. Lucia Black (talk) 01:47, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
The previous discussion was about replacing a perfectly acceptable icon with a new one. That certainly would have caused confusion because the adoption of the original WP:VG icon had given it representational characteristics. In this case we're talking about adopting a new icon where none existed before. I agree with you that I'd prefer something more generic than the Fez icon, but ultimately it hardly matters what is used. Maybe it would be easiest to demonstrate this by analogy. Consider how the Gravis PC GamePad icon has come to represent WP:VG: Even though its original meaning in no way defined the entirety of the group, it gained representational capacity as a result of its adoption and it now gives visibility to/raise awareness of WP:VG and serves to identify the WikiProject to gain recruits and to give the members a common banner. That adoption wasn't against the rules and it hasn't caused anything to melt down (yet). The same is true for the proposed taskforce icon. History shows that your concerns that a non-definitional icon will confuse and mislead editors are ill-founded. -Thibbs (talk) 01:52, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
See my previous argument as to why Fez, at least presently, is a well recognized title representing indie game development. Minecraft may be the most recognized of any indie game, and the pixelated dirt block or pickaxe would be a clear candidate, but we have no free assets from it, and since we're talking a project icon it has to be a free resource. That immediately limits what we have available from any indie game, and Fez is pretty much the top of that shortlist. --MASEM (t) 02:02, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
That was not the reason why the discussion was closed. And i understand your analogy, but i don't agree it falls with Wikipedia principles at all. Anyone can change any image icon so long as it has consensus (and obviously if the community believe its for good reason). This isn't the case for this taskforce. Members (and they have admitted to) just wanting an image. Icons can change and have changed regardless of history. Although i would like to believe the discussion in the past was because the current one was good and had no need to change, the real reason was that all the proposed ones were too close to other real console controllers.
And at the time, members didn't even know that the icon was a gravis PC gamepad. they assumed it was a random made-up one because of the issue of the other game controllers resembling real ones, and that could cause issues. And i have seen members use this discussion in the past. So now that you revealed it. I will happy to provide a bigger discussion into removing ALL erroneous VG icon discussions and replace them (or not at all for taskforce icons). Perhaps creating a new one. And before this becomes a debate of hypocrisy, my intention is still to end all discussions of adding or replacing future discussions. I believe if it does end up going toward my proposal, we will not be seeing these discussions again. And that is a good thing.
And again, although not as important in my book, it is definitely important enough to be a deal breaker on its own: The claim that Fez is currently the most iconic indie game is false. There are other games highlighted as indie games just as much if not more than Fez. its counter-intuitive to even choose one that will not even stay in the long run. And i don't buy that Fez is currently the best (of the worst) option at the moment.
No image is still better than having a bad image. Because after all, indie games aren't established by what they are visually. The only option is a video game console with a businessman and a dollar sign crossed out together. the only option i can see viable enough to make sense and not endorse another series/company. But even then, its not necessary. And any other option is more harmful. Lucia Black (talk) 02:15, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
You just ignored what I said. I agree there are other indie games with more visibility than Fez, such as Minecraft, but we have no free resources from Minecraft. Considering what indie games we do have free resources from, Fez is arguably the one with the most visibility. If we use Fez' image now, and then tomorrow Notch decides to give WP some free assets to us, I'd be first in line to suggest a change. --MASEM (t) 02:26, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
I didn't ignore it. I know what you said, but keep in mind i wasn't going to wait another 5 minutes to edit my comment just to get another edit conflict. And although you're keeping you're integrity of it still being ok to have more discussions about this, i'm going to keep mine and say they are not ok for something so trivial. And to me, it looks like you'll support it for the sake of having an image. Its counter-intuitive and i will not be ok with that in this wikiproject or any wikiproject. I know discussions are good, but not all of them are necessary and if their not necessary, their not good.
So convenient to ignore the alternate. Lucia Black (talk)
That really sounds like you're just trying to be stubborn for the sake of being stubborn. And consensus is clearly against you here, so its not going to work. Sergecross73 msg me 02:43, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
How the hell are we having an argument about this? Is this conversation going anywhere at this point? Of all things, this should be something that isn't an issue and yet here we are now. Good God! GamerPro64 02:42, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Because now, this discussion reveals more erroneous decisions for previous taskforce icons and even the WP:VG icon. SO really the obvious choice is no image. Lucia Black (talk) 02:44, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

That makes no sense, and no one, beyond yourself, is advocating such a ludicrous conclusion. Please stop trying to fake some sort of consensus here... Sergecross73 msg me 02:46, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
No, i'm not faking consensus. NO image is better than a best of the worst. And i consider that the "obvious" choice. but again, this icon is really here only to please the ones who want it. The task force talk page redirects to the main talk page, so the point of even having a task force isn't necessary either. SO many red flags willing to be ignored. Lucia Black (talk) 02:53, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
So why not just make a thread to have the task force merge with the project? You're making it sound like you're on the right side to this argument. Then again, I'm not on anyones side in this conversation. But anyway, its not like the icon is going to offend people if there's consensus of use (Unless you hate Phil Fish). So what's the point in continuing this? At this point this thread could've been in the archives by now. GamerPro64 02:56, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
I agree, this thread is as good as done. There's clear consensus. I'd close/archive the conversation had I not been involved in it. I hope someone uninvolved closes it soon. Sergecross73 msg me 02:59, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
Well, hah, I wouldn't rely on not hating Phil Fish as a condition for the icon being acceptable... Anyway, I'm okay with the Fez logo as a solution for now. Not ideal, but I suggested the abstract icons and they didn't catch on, as well as my own potential design, which it's my own fault I haven't put together. Tezero (talk) 03:05, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Should we have an image of pac-man, mario, sonic, or any other series/video game icon into any VG taskforce that isn't directly about such series? The problem is the choices and consensus process that settles for "bad images". I dont like Fez, but thats not why. I would be against a Minecraft image, or a journey image, or a Shovel Knight image to represent indie games. Because its "misinterpretting" what indie games are, and that can most definitely offend someone who has a real love for indie games. And not that it matters but indie game fans and developers really do hate Phil Fish. But here are other issues.

There are big issues. First redflag: it unveils the inconsistency of choosing VG image icons in the wikiproject and how taskforce manage to get away with it. In the past, the VG icons were rejected for resembling real console controllers and wasn't "nuetral" enough. now that idea seems to be out the window for this particular situation.

The second reflag is the idea of using this one until another more well known indie game overshadows Fez and have another discussion about it to replace the icon. So its not one image stays for a while (it wont), its one image for the moment until members find another more appropriate and this is a problem.

Also, i'm promoting the idea of if no image represents something appropriately then the best of the worst is still one of the worst and no image is best.


But i do fully intend to merge certain taskforce and a better way of deciding what image stays and what doesn't. Lucia Black (talk) 03:09, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

I hate to be blunt about it, but you aren't allowed to just merge taskforces without consensus to do so. Neither am I, and hopefully neither are the admins. czar, as little as we've gotten along recently, made the honest and amiable move of asking all of us before merging the taskforce talk pages he did. I and a few other WP:SEGA frequenters weren't fond of that one going all male-anglerfish, so it, along with another one (Visual novels, I think?) stayed. Really, this—along with the Indie icon—ties into the general theme of not doing anything unless the community, by and large, supports it. Sure, that ideal gets corrupted from time to time, but darn it, we can still try.
On a related note, I don't think there is that much consistency for non-specificity among WP:VG taskforce icons. Could there be? Should there be? Maybe, but for now we've got a mushroom for Nintendo, a crudely rendered spin-dashing Sonic (or is it Metal Sonic?) for Sega, a Pong cabinet for Arcade... I mean, you're channeling a precedent that just isn't there.
You do have a point that we shouldn't just pick whatever image we feel like (although I maintain that indie games would be represented quite nicely by an alligator penis or Aretha Franklin's Obama inauguration hat), but continuing with that point as you have is begging the question by assuming that Fez is among "the worst", which most of us dispute. Tezero (talk) 03:44, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
It would be silly for Lucia to be arguing against the use of an arbitrary icon when no such thing was suggested. All of the proposals including the abstract ones are quite clearly related to indie games. Anyway Lucia's unique view that "nothing is better than something" notwithstanding, I agree with Serge that there is a clear consensus here. Let's close this thread. Lucia should feel free to propose new policy or guidelines covering genre-defining taskforce icons. In the meanwhile she must respect the consensus that her irascible and absolutist rhetoric frankly helped to create. This has been an excellent demonstration of the old saying that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. -Thibbs (talk) 04:09, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Nothing is better than something that will never be good enough. And quite frankly, its not. And i dont care that you call it absolutist, theres no reason why i should find leeway in this particular situation. And this isn't honey and vinegar. paint it however you like Thibbs, it is what it is. a group of isolated members wanting to satisfy themselves in wanting an image despite red flags. And again, this shows how inconsistent it really is. I shouldn't have to make a discussion for how to determine a free image should be used, theres already principles that were defined in previous "recent" discussions. Lucia Black (talk) 04:48, 8 July 2014 (UTC) And for the record, i'm not the only one who found this to be an issue. Lucia Black (talk) 04:58, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

This isn't a law court. Prior consensus-based decisions like this don't exerting controlling precedent. The question in the previous discussion (if you re-read it) was whether there was consensus on WP:VG to change icons and whether it would be a good idea to change it and whether anyone wanted to change it. The question was never whether WP:VG must change the icon. The consensus was ultimately formed around personal opinions, not around policy and guidelines. But opinions may differ when topics differ (in this case different images and different groups) so even WP:NOTLAW aside, there is really no precedent to apply here. You're taking two unrelated events and two unrelated consensuses and coming to a conclusion that makes no sense - i.e. if WP:VG doesn't want to change its old icon then none of its taskforces can adopt any kind of new icons for complex topics. That's bunk. Your claim that in the previous consensus "the only reason was that it was closer to a specific game console's" completely ignores all of the other arguments made in that discussion and also fails to address why a more abstract generic icon would be forbidden for the indie task force. You've pointed to zero policies or guidelines to support your vision that no icon would be better than any icon. You're alone in that absolutist view. Now as many people have already suggested, will you please drop it? It's time for this discussion to end. Your views have failed to win over any minds. You can process that internally. Next time maybe use a less acerbic rhetoric. -Thibbs (talk) 11:44, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

"any" is not upto debate, the idea of majority means "everyone" isn't true. I'm not claiming this to be a law, but rather a form of consistency. And you've provided zero policies to help further your discussion either. This is common sense, and if you want to argue what common sense for the sake of getting what you want, thats not what i plan on doing. This is something ALL wikiprojects do, not just WP:VG. I can drop it, so long as you admit the truth. Lucia Black (talk) 05:35, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

The only policy that is relevant here is WP:CONS. Call them truths if you want, but this is a matter of individual personal truths (AKA opinions) and if there is consensus to use an icon (any icon) for the taskforce then that's what should be used. You've expressed your view and I think everyone thoroughly understands your POV. -Thibbs (talk) 10:43, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
Consensus is consensus, and for now i claim it to be local. I dont believe any member should get what they want just because they want it, especially when theres no perfect image, and a more "standard" less specific to a series isn't a bad image, no matter how much you paint that its ok to endorse a series as the image of indie games is a good thing. Consensus has made their point, i'm only defending mine, and continue to promote it as reasonable. A perfect image or no image. I want the truth to come out, and the truth i'm asking is not about opinion of how you all see it, but the reason why you all want it that badly that you're willing to ignore other viable options. Lucia Black (talk) 17:30, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Request for rewrite/cleanup help - Xbox One[edit]

I've been having writer's (editor's?) block for a while on this. There are some major issues with the article that I'm having a hard time writing about. I'm requesting for some people with extra time to have a jump on it. Here are some of the major issues I see from here.

  • The article is outdated. Several references to stuff writen in future tense have already come to pass, such as Twitch.tv integration.
  • The release reception section is too short, which is pretty sad.
  • Software and services section is missing some features, such as the idea of applications. The software developer in me wants to hammer in the idea of Universal Windows Apps (This is really a thing) as some apps and games are already using the idea (Halo: Spartan Assault and Skulls of the Shogun are two comming to mind.)
  • The pre-release reception section is excessively long and too much in focus of the article. This represents the biggest problem the article has, as it focuses too much on the controversy of the console before it even came out rather than the hardware itself. I have trimmed it down as best I could but I find it hard to determine what is notable enough to include. (Or in this case, not include)

This is what I see for now. I own an XOne so I can check just about anything if needed too. Comments? Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 13:21, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I lost interest in the article when the anti-Microsoft and pro-Sony forces took over the article and insisted on including every single Microsoft misstep. I may get back into the article to see if we can reduce excessive coverage and make the article more neutral. I've got a One as well and can double-check. I've been finishing up the creation of Ori and the Blind Forest and could use some more eyes on that one, too. --McDoobAU93 13:48, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Hive the pre-launch stuff off into a launch article, Microsoft's daily gaff from the initial reveal through E3 and up to launch is a notable phase in the life of the console. - X201 (talk) 14:58, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Agree with separate article on the launch woes. The highlights (lowlights?) can be covered in the main article. --McDoobAU93 15:37, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
I'm on the fence, leaning against. To me it kinda seems like bashing out said article might exacerbate the problem, since it might just expand and bloat even harder. On the other hand, it does shrink the pre-release reception in the main article. Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 15:50, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
It worked with the Playstation 3 and Xbox 360. Hiving off the launch, controller info, system software updates etc, makes room for the main article to be the general overview that the average person would expect, the specific articles then go into detail for users that need to research a specific aspect. - X201 (talk) 16:15, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
How about an article genericly labeled "Controversy"? It could also allow us to cut out some of the Kinect requirement and bundle stuff. Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 19:16, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Sounds terribly POV to me. This said, the Xbox_One#Pre-release section is way too long and goes into way too much minutiae—just needs to be cut back, not spun out czar  23:16, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you Czar, but since the idea came up I thought I would throw the compromise ball into the air. I'll try harder to slim down the section some more and try for a master rewrite, provided I don't get a nice writer's block again. *Groan* Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 03:49, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

I personally disagree with a cut, but am on-the-fence about a page split. I think we have to accept the fact that, basically, the entire launch was an unbelievable fuck-up. Don't get me wrong, I got an Xbone at launch (and a PS4 early this year), and love both, but the negative backlash was so widespread that trying to edit out some of that out would be sailing closer to POV than having it all there. I think the section looks disproportionally long because the rest of the article is outdated and in need of expansion, namely Critical reception. We could solve that with a page split, yes, and I think the Xbone's controversy in and of itself would meet the GNG. CR4ZE (tc) 04:18, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Application List[edit]

Which leads me to a different point. I think we should have an article for the available apps. Half the work is done here. Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 16:42, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

(Goes to check article)... For gods sake, do it yesterday. - X201 (talk) 17:09, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Done! (Started, really) Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 18:46, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Good stuff, I'm a big contributor to the Xbox One games list, and create the List for Xbox Original Programming, so I'll help with the app list as well. --Mordecairule 11:26, 27 June 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mordecairule (talkcontribs)
Do you use any special software to edit grids? Generating such a large list by hand looks daunting. Advice? Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 12:40, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
I can't speak for Mordecairule, but I use Excel and the concatenate function. You can import the table data into Excel and then create the table code around it by dragging cells.- X201 (talk) 13:12, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Can you go into some more details? I'm not exactly Mr. Excel over here. (Developer by trade, but not for Excel) Zero Serenity (talk - contributions) 18:32, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

@Zero Serenity: Yep, no problem. Just remeber to prod me if I haven't got back to you soon. - X201 (talk) 09:01, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
Outside input here: Why not merge both List of Xbox One games and List of Xbox One applications into one article and name it List of Xbox One software, like it was done on List of Wii U software some time ago? Keeps things all in one place. No pun intended ;) ~ Arkhandar (TalkContribs) 01:30, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Game Informer Issue 214[edit]

Can anyone help me here? I need to get a piece of information in Issue 214 of Game Informer from February 2011. The information I need is the page numbers and wording for the section relating to the "Top Ten Best Fighting Game Characters" or such similar title. --ProtoDrake (talk) 09:03, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

I have the issue but I currently do not have access to the issue since I am at school. If no one else can help you sooner, I can get you the needed info in the middle of July. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:54, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. I can wait. You can contact me on my talk page. --ProtoDrake (talk) 19:36, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
I will. If you do not hear from me by the end of July, please get in contact with me to give me a reminder. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:08, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

@ProtoDrake: I'm going to have access to this issue over the weekend. What do you need in terms of wording for the section? - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:33, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

The wording is already there: it's for the article on Lightning. It was that the reference was too vague, not citing the issue or the page number for the information. The sentence I want to back up properly is (from Reception section) "In Game Informer's list of top ten heroes of 2010, Lightning was ranked eighth and praised for her as the only protagonist in Final Fantasy XIII who seemed capable of taking on the corrupt government of Cocoon and that her no-nonsense approach to her mission made her the game's standout hero.", with some modification in light of the article's name. The exact quote of what the magazine said about her would be nice. There are other places the information would be useful, such as for Sol Badguy and Scorpion --ProtoDrake (talk) 16:58, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Great. I'll either transcribe it for you or get a photo of it up for you. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:22, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Hey ProtoDrake. Here's what I have for you. Only the info on Lightning is in the 214 issue and I don't have the issue for the two other information. So for Lighting: "8. Lighting - Final Fantasy XIII: Amongst Final Fantasy XIII's cast of lackluster protagonists, Lightning is the only character who seems capable of taking on the corrupt government of Cocoon. Lightning's no-nonsense approach to her mission makes her the game's standout hero." And your ref tag would be: <ref>{{cite journal|title=Top 50 Games of 2010 - Top 10 Heroes|journal=Game Informer|publisher=GameStop|volume=XXI|issue=214|date=February 2011|pages=29|accessdate=July 4, 2014}}</ref> The whole feature (Top 50 Games of 2010) nor the subfeature (Top 10 Heroes) had specific authors. Hope this helps you. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 01:56, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you so much. I'm working towards getting that article featured by the end of the year. Your reference has plugged the only big hole there was in its list of references. Once again, thank you. --ProtoDrake (talk) 07:41, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
No problem! Glad I could! Good luck on getting it featured! - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:28, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Question about FAC reviews[edit]

I have an opened FAC review that received quite a bit attention within its first week, with everything commented on being addressed in full and one editor who has been regularly making suggestions, but I am concerned that after said editor completes his review and votes, that there will be no more attention and it will go stale. I was tempted to post about it here, but I was worried that asking for further input of any kind for an FAC here would count as forum shopping. What is the input of the project? DARTHBOTTO talkcont 22:04, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with that as long as you're not reminding us, like, every couple of days. There's an unspoken rule around here that if you're always nominating articles for GA and FA status, you should help out with others' reviews; to that end, it's fair game to remind us what's available. Tezero (talk) 22:55, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, honestly, the most reliable way to get reviews (at FAC or elsewhere) is to do a good review on someone else's nomination and ask them if they'd be willing to do one back. It's actually a psychology thing- people have a harder time saying no if you ask them directly than if you ask them as part of a group (e.g. by posting here), and editors tend to be grateful for getting a solid review anyways. To all: the nomination he's talking about is Dota 2. --PresN 01:23, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
It's like how if you urgently need someone's help (I assume it's for if you have a stroke, fall down and get injured, get attacked, etc.) on a crowded downtown street you're supposed to focus on one person and ask them rather than call out aimlessly. Gratitude for telling us what review that is so it falls out of the realm of abstraction; I'll try to take a look tonight or else tomorrow. *cough*cough*reviewsonicxforgan*cough* Tezero (talk) 01:32, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
Well, since I've received the answer I'm looking for, it is Dota 2. However, my top priority is to of course understand how to approach this in a general way, so I didn't want to draw to much attention to the FAC in question until I did understand this better. Thank you everyone for letting me know. DARTHBOTTO talkcont 01:50, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

While we're on the subject, I'm looking for the last few comments on Mischief Makers (nom) if anyone has the time. I'm finishing business in the next two weeks and I'll have plenty of time to review everything else I've missed then. czar  02:31, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Need one more support, czar? I'll check it out today or tomorrow and make an appraisal. Tezero (talk) 02:36, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
Excellent—I'd appreciate that czar  03:09, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
I've included myself in your review, as well. I hope I'm of help! DARTHBOTTO talkcont 19:54, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Review begging thread[edit]

Can anyone (besides Tezero- thanks!) take a look at the List of Mass Effect media FLC nomination here? It's been in the queue since April 29 and just needs one more support. It's a list, so it doesn't take much time to review. I'm willing to do a review back, in whatever venue you want. --PresN 21:46, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

I guess I can take a look at it. Least I can do for your help doing an Image Review for Anachronox. GamerPro64 21:48, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
Have dumped some comments as well. I have a PR open if you're interested. Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 22:10, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
Will do. --PresN 02:42, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
I dropped off a review as well. Here's my shameless request for a review of Flight Unlimited II. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 07:45, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
Alright, now I have a wealth of reviews! I'll try to take a look at Taylor's and Jimmy's articles today. --PresN 17:22, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
OK, I'm all good on the review front- instead of one more, I got three more! This worked out well (for me)- looks like review-backs are the way to go. --PresN 22:25, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

On the review begging front, can someone other than PresN, Tintor2 and CR4ZE please take a look at my nomination for Drakengard? It's had an image review and two okays so far, and has been stuck at its current status since 18th of last month. --ProtoDrake (talk) 09:41, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

JimmyBlackwing and ProtoDrake, I can look at both of yours.
While I'm here, all of my GANs are done except Sonic X. I'd appreciate a review so I can put it up for PR and get... even more comments! Heh. Tezero (talk) 15:33, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Credits Database[edit]

Hi there, fellow editors! I've recently ran into some problems on referencing game developers in video game articles. As such, I'd like to ask the community on how to reference video game credits (staff rolls and such). Additionally, I'd like to propose the creation of a video game credits template to be used on video game articles in order to not only enrich the article but also to help the referencing, such as produces, directors, composers, etc. (mainly infobox and development stuff). Thank you!--Arkhandar (TalkContribs) 18:04, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

How would a credits template help with referencing? --PresN 18:16, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
It would be hosted on Wikipedia instead of other websites (potentially reducing errors and typos) and would be another source of information to the reader.--Arkhandar (TalkContribs) 18:29, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
One thing to consider - we have generally discouraged "filling in all the blanks" in the infobox for video games unless these people have been noted by other sources. This is because most of the designs outside of the creative lead and music lead are unknowns (non-notable people) and thus will be just a unlinked list of random people. That said, the game itself should be sufficient to use as a source to source credits, if they are presented in game; if not, the game manual might have them too. --MASEM (t) 18:21, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, there could be notability issues with this. Is there a specific way to cite the video game software itself or is it just implied in the article?--Arkhandar (TalkContribs) 18:29, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
The few times I've resorted to citing the game as a whole, I've just used the "cite video game" template. Normally that's intended for quotes, but you can leave that field out with no errors. Helps to type "Credits" into the "level" parameter of that template. Tezero (talk) 20:54, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
@Tezero:Thank you! I've already started using it and it works perfectly. Thanks.--Arkhandar (TalkContribs) 22:45, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Considering modifying the infobox to include "remakes/remasters" sections[edit]

I'm only toying with the idea that we add in for the infobox to create sections for remakes/remasters of video games; this section would be within the same infobox, blocked off somehow from the main game details, to reiterate the release platforms, dates, and persons involved.

Note that first, we want to have explicitly what a remake or a remaster is, in contrast to a port. That might be its own discussion to make the distinction properly, but, for example, a remake/remaster would require more than just redoing the game for the different system but include new content, updated art assets, etc. I would also include special release editors, ala "Another World" 15th and 20th anniversary editions, since they add some content.

But by doing this, while this will require some reworking (backwards compat) of the infobox, this would simplify some of these game's release details, plus make it a lot clearer. Take "Grim Fandango". It is essentially it is a PC game, but with the announced remastering, it's got PS4 along with that as well as other yet-announced platforms and that's a bit misleading. By moving the remake/remasters to a separate block of data, it makes it clear how the title is generally known, as a PC game.

But again, the first issue is whether we can come up with concrete rules on determining a port vs a remake/remaster. If we can't do that, then it's not really worthwhile to progress on this when it will be contested at all levels. --MASEM (t) 20:21, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

I like this idea, and would be willing to help craft some text regarding this. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:57, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
This is harder for 8-bit and 16-bit series that have been remade countless of times and then those versions ported again a numerous amounts. Games such as Final Fantasy (video game) and Dragon Warrior makes things difficult to utilize such a section. Often times there are even scaled-down remakes too. Perhaps we should have this for one definitive remake/remaster of a game, or one that only uses one. Lucia Black (talk) 16:06, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Another issue i find in Final Fantasy Adventure that has received two different types of remakes, a re-imagine, and just a visual remake that updates, recolors the sprites. Lucia Black (talk) 16:16, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Right, this is the type of thing that would make it difficult to just say "remake/remaster" and let people guess at that definition. And I would not be surprised a publisher's claimed "remake" is simply a reskin with HD textures. I'd like to encourage discussion to see if we could make something relatively objective towards that. --MASEM (t) 23:51, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
I propose that this should be done if the remaster/remake in question has a dedicated section in the main article. For example: Kingdom Hearts Re:Chain of Memories that has been fully remade and oddly enough the remake has been fully remastered into the HD Remix. I believe if they have their own article, then they should be a minor link in the infobox. Lucia Black (talk) 06:47, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
Seeing as we're in the area, can I throw the re-release problem into the discussion? Games are regularly re-released on newer platforms, and then categorised as being a PS3/Xbox 360/Wii/etc game despite the fact that it is basically just being run via an emulator, and is not a native PS3/Xbox360/Wii/etc version. If we could keep the Release date field for the original release and then have another date field to take care of remakes, ports and re-releases that would be a step towards getting the categorisation problem fixed. - X201 (talk) 08:00, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, those are ports that aren't covered. But really, this is too difficult to decipher....Posibbly we make a section for Original console, then we make a section for ports and remakes. the problem is when a remake gets its own port as well. Perhaps we should give up on this idea. Lucia Black (talk) 07:44, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
This affects only a handful of games, it's not something that needs to be in the Infobox. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 10:02, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
Agreed. Perhaps we should avoid them until they are the norm. Lucia Black (talk) 05:47, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
I agree that the number of games where this can be legitimately applied is small - probably in the couple dozen or so. My concern is, taking specifically the case of Grim Fandango, it looks very odd to say "Platforms: PC, PS4", knowing very well this game predated the PS4 by at least a decade. I know we have traditionally used small titles in the infobox to denote remakes, etc., but I feel there are a small number of remakes that aren't sufficiently different in wikipedia-oriented details to require a separate article, but should be treated more than just a random new port (ala DreamCast games going GameCube or PS2 or PC route). But how to spell out exactly when that is the case is not something I can say with any assurance right now - it is very much "I know it when I see it" test. --MASEM (t) 13:20, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Should we make an alternate mini-infobox similar fashion to how Anime/manga infoboxes group other media together? So a remake/remaster could have an alternate developer, release, and platform. Another that comes to mind is maybe Final Fantasy III. Lucia Black (talk) 00:35, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Quickly thinking about a mini-infobox seems like a good idea. It would not force a change to the current infobox, and could have the parameters of:
{{Infobox video game remake | title = | italic title = | collapsible = | state = | developer = | publisher = | distributor = | engine = | platforms = | released = {{Video game release|}} | modes = | media = <!-- The following could appear under a further collapsed part, and be optional only if different from the original's. --> | director = | producer = | designer = | programmer = | artist = | writer = | composer = }} - Favre1fan93 (talk) 01:05, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to get direct input on moving Castlevania (1986 video game) back to Castlevania (video game).[edit]

@SNAAAAKE!!:

I feel that the article should be at the latter title, as the only other game called Castlevania is a less well-known game. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 20:47, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

  • This is something about which there is bound to always be debate: is the NES or N64 the near-magical absolute "primary topic"? I think it is a reasonable and appropriate compromise to have both articles under distinctly disambiguated titles, and having Castlevania (video game) redirect to the first one chronologically + hatnotes. It used to be NES at (video game) and N64 at (1999 video game). N64 was moved to (Nintendo 64) years ago because the release spans more than a year but only a single console, thus it was more precise. NES was just moved from (video game) to (1986 video game) by Niemti (pinged above). ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  20:56, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
    • I think it's clear that "Castlevania" "video game" immediately evokes the NES title over the N64 for most gamers, and thus is fair to maintain the "(video game)" title. --MASEM (t) 21:00, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
For what precedent's worth, Sonic the Hedgehog (video game) links to the series and Sonic The Hedgehog (video game) (capital "The") links to the original czar  21:45, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
There's no way this isn't a result of the original game's article having changed titles. I wouldn't call it precedent. Tezero (talk) 21:58, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
I meant the former as the precedent (the latter is there just because I didn't know how else to note it) czar  22:18, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't agree with incomplete disambiguation. Castlevania (video game) has more than one meaning, so it would not be inappropriate to have it as a title. I wouldn't support a move. But Castlevania (video game) should redirect to the NES article. Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 21:04, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

I completely agree with Taylor Trescott. -Thibbs (talk) 11:33, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm going to have to second that. And FWIW, that Sonic reference is terrible. Different redirects based on capitalization? Seriously. That's an absolutely awful example. These shouldn't be linked that way. I'm glad someone fixed it since then. Wow. BcRIPster (talk) 17:51, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Trevor Philips[edit]

Not notable outside of the games. Sources are about the game... what does the waterboarding mission have to do with his character? Beerest 2 Talk page 00:17, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

From reading the article the waterboarding appears to be performed by this character. You probably want to post your question at Talk:Trevor Philips for now. You can propose an article for deletion or merging if you believe it is non-notable. -Thibbs (talk) 11:51, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

The WikiProject Video Games Newsletter, Q2 2014[edit]

Gamepad.svg

The WikiProject Video Games Newsletter
Volume 7, No. 2 — 2nd Quarter, 2014
Fairytale left.png Previous issue | Index | Next issue Fairytale right.png

Project At a Glance
As of Q2 2014, the project has:


Content


To receive future editions of this newsletter, click here to sign up on the distribution list.

Screenshots or photos?[edit]

There is a discussion on the media copyright questions page about whether the airport aerial images listed there are video screenshots (possibly pilot simulation software), and therefore quite possibly copyright violations, or are they actual photos the uploader has freely released. Any and all comments appreciated. ww2censor (talk) 14:58, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Dragon magazine video game reviews[edit]

Problem has been resolved for the time being. Just another notch in the Niemti saga. Who knows what will happen next. GamerPro64 17:28, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Does anyone have access to old copies of Dragon magazine, either in hardcopy or in some electronic format? One user has been removing notes from reception sections about reviews in Dragon, as seen so far on Battletoads, Another World, Civilization, Arcus Odyssey, and Elvira II. The user insisted on my talk page that he felt the reviews were presented as "useless trivia like from a bot" because in some cases it was only a note stating how many stars the reviewer gave the game. The user suggested I write what exactly the reviewer liked or disliked - which I would be happy to do if I had the actual magazines (and I may need to figure out how to download them in order to keep the info). He even pointed out that I could add this score to the infobox, but he made no effort to do this himself and simply removed the info. I disagree that the info is useless, even though I admit it could be presented better or more completely. First of all, it provides notability to a borderline article if we have WP:RS reviews from notable sources. Secondly, it is a clue that someone at least liked or disliked the game. Still, rather than fight with this user, I am asking that if anyone has access to these sources in some form, would you be able to add a sentence or two from these reviews? Thanks! 68.57.233.34 (talk) 02:23, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

http://annarchive.com/dragon.html czar  02:55, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
God Bless You!!!!!  :) 68.57.233.34 (talk) 03:03, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
I believe User:BOZ has a good collection of them in hardcopy as well. -Thibbs (talk) 04:06, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
Actually, mine are on CD-rom, but my computer has been down for a few months. I originally added a lot of those little quick reviews years ago, and even just doing that was a huge project. I wish I had the time to go through there and add more info from each of the reviews to each article, but I am glad to see that a number of the articles have improved significantly over the years! Thanks to Czar for that link - now anyone can fill in the reviews. :) BOZ (talk) 06:52, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
Ah I see. When I hear Dragon my mind just immediately goes to BOZ. :) -Thibbs (talk) 11:54, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
SNAKE apparently has no idea what he's doing, if he thinks that BOZ's work is spam. Someone should revert him and link him to this discussion. What he's doing is vandalism. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 17:17, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
SNAAAAKE!! is Niemti, if that helps. And LOL, thanks Thibbs - I will certainly take that as a compliment. :) My computer will be back up and running sooner or later! BOZ (talk) 17:30, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
Blocked Niemti for 2 weeks, for this, some incivility, and some edit warring earlier in the week. --PresN 15:20, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
Look, I'm not necessarily saying that was the wrong thing to do, but blocking a user partly for edit-warring, when you've recently reverted their content in the midst of an apparent edit-war, that's quite likely to blow up in your own face if/when that block comes under scrutiny... ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  16:29, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
Wasn't blocking him for a Battletoads edit-war, he was correct that the article was about the franchise so reviews of game 1 don't belong. Blocked him for the Ghost in the Shell edit war, and his usual habit of disruptive and dismissive edit summaries and statements. Honestly, Niemti passed his last chance 5 chances ago, and the exact same issues keep popping up over and over. We should drop it here, though, this isn't a good venue for discussing a problematic editor. --PresN 17:11, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Hidden revisions? Scandalous! Maybe I'll keep an eye on this for a bit. Be civil, everyone. Tezero (talk) 02:11, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

It wasn't that bad, I think Salvidrim overreacted. Not going to re-establish it, though, since it was still a personal attack. --PresN 02:26, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
For context, person from the future reading this, Salvidrim! blocked Jimmy for 31 hours for a personal attack that has seen been hidden. Since this is a Niemti-related topic and you are going through the archives, its not at all shocking that editors are losing their cool. Salvidrim has since unblocked him but let this be a lesson on being civil, no matter how upsetting seeing something like this happen. GamerPro64 02:43, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
I want to apologize to everyone who saw that comment. It wasn't intended to be a flame, but my own sloppiness and irritation turned it into one. Definitely one of those moments where you shouldn't click "Save page". JimmyBlackwing (talk) 03:32, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
Man, you should apologize for me not seeing it. Frickin' censorship... Anyway, it happens. I'm of the mind that it shouldn't be treated harshly unless it persists for a long time and is disruptive, but hey. Tezero (talk) 04:07, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
Well, become an admin and you can see whatever you want! (Warning: most revdeletions have no redeeming value or interest. Adminship may have other hidden costs or fees. Do not take while driving.) --PresN 04:27, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
I hear the pay's pretty good, though. -Thibbs (talk) 11:24, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Atari 2600 development sources[edit]

Where would you theoretically go to get development information on Atari 2600-era titles? Are there certain magazines, sites, or repositories that tend to have coverage, or is it left to Googling for interviews? czar  09:42, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

@Taylor Trescott: has been doing some work on Atari 2600 games recently, and by the edit history so has @Dream Focus:. What game(s) are you trying to work on? --PresN 15:23, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
I was asking figuratively—I was doing a preliminary review of TT's Atari 2600 articles and plan to review more as they appear in the future. I noticed that the current Atari GANs very short on "development", but that I would not have a suggestion on how to expand them, so I wanted to throw the question of how one would theoretically find 80s development sources to the project czar  15:29, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
They have an archive of all these old magazines somewhere, I just can't remember where, and you can search through them for information about any game, Atari 2600, arcade, or computer game, from decades ago. Dream Focus 16:13, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
@Dream Focus, is it one of those listed in User:JimmyBlackwing/Sourcing video game articles? czar  16:31, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

For the most part it depends on the game. Most Atari 2600 games were easily forgotten bland shovelware. You're very rarely going to find huge info on development, because let's face it, these games are usually extraordinarily simple. Taylor Trescott - my talk + my edits 17:26, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Aside from the magazine archives linked in that Jimmy Blackwing link, Digital Press has a bunch of interviews, some of them with Atari developers: http://www.digitpress.com/library/interviews/ Video Invaders by Steve Bloom from 1982 has some interviews, too. Scans can be found online. Derboo (talk) 06:49, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Assault (gametype)[edit]

Should this kind of article exist? I've already removed a huge section of WP:GAMEGUIDE material which was copied directly from an UT wiki. Sam Walton (talk) 11:10, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

On the same note - Onslaught (gametype). Sam Walton (talk) 11:14, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Hell no. There's nothing close to the all-esteemed "significant coverage". Boot it. Tezero (talk) 14:07, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

New EarthBound articles[edit]

A couple of articles covering the game EarthBound have been created or significantly restructured, all of which are currently rated B-class: EarthBound, Marcus Lindblom, EarthBound fandom, and Mother 3 fan translation. However, I have concerns about the content and tone of these articles. Keep in mind that this is a list of my immediate thoughts and not a full explanation. Prose-wise, they're all rough drafts at best. They're often very wordy and mostly repeat, not summarize, what sources are saying. The leads of all articles don't really summarize the subject and its notability, they mostly seem to pluck random statements from the article. The vibe I get from the articles in general is that they put really heavy weight on the game's fan community in an almost editorial way, like they're undergoing some sort of repression or struggle. While these are covered by citations, there isn't an attempt to make them their inclusion in the article objective and rather state them as is. Sometimes the article prose actually declares "Their efforts are ignored by Nintendo" (which has been addressed) or "their requests are unanswered."

Another thing is that they're copies of one another, almost to the point of filler, and makes me think they should be merged together. I feel like they're trying to cover a lot of ground but there isn't much focus. The EarthBound article goes into the fandom, but is duplicating the EarthBound fandom article and even going on about topics, such as the Mother 3 fan translation, that have nothing to do with the game itself. Likewise, the fan translation section of the EarthBound fandom doesn't summarize the main article, it just copies most of its lead. The bulk of the Lindblom article is just a verbatim copy of the original draft used for EarthBound#North American release. The article also barely talks about Lindblom without the context of EarthBound, which makes me question his notability in general. Likewise, there is nothing notable in the Mother 3 fan translation that hasn't already been covered in the original Mother 3 article. It's mostly covering the translation's development in minute detail with very little on the translation's actual reception, which I believe better establishes its notability. I have tried to fix or address these issues myself, but I and Czar, the primary editor, have disagreeing views. Given that most of these articles have been nominated for GA (and barely any of them have received any input from individuals other than myself or Czar), I want to get more opinions from the project on the current quality of these articles. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 15:00, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Cripes! The Marcus Lindblom article uses only five references? And one of them is used 21 times in the article? This project may have some of the smallest articles promoted as Featured Articles, but that's just ridiculous for an article trying just to become a Good Article. GamerPro64 15:09, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
Lindblom would have the least notability of the group. While he's primarily known for his work on EB, I felt that he had enough coverage as to justify his independent notability. If not, let's discuss. The others are summary style expansions that go into depth not appropriate for any other article's section. Also I believe you're quoting previous drafts of the articles. All of the summary style sections should fully reflect the content of the expanded article. As for the article rating, if you disagree, rerate them. I'm not sure what to do with your prose quality comment. I'd be curious to see if others agree with TO's stance on neutrality. I feel that I gave the due weight to the available references and have yet to find a defense of Nintendo's silence. "Unanswered" is completely appropriate. NPOV should be the way it's written, not relying on sources that don't exist. czar  15:25, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I really think the fan-translation one ought to be merged. As Thomas stated, there's a lot of "fan commentary" filler that should be trimmed way down. The "reception" would fit just fine in the game's reception section too, since there probably aren't many English language reviews for the game anyways... Sergecross73 msg me 15:44, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

When I saw Lindblom come up in the GAN queue I was pretty confused... he looks plainly NN to me with a bad case of WP:ONEEVENT. Sent to AfD wirenote (talk) 23:12, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Guacamelee! free use[edit]

We just got a big haul of free use images from DrinkBox's Guacamelee! and I wanted to share them with y'all. If you have a moment, perhaps you can help me find non-Guac articles that could benefit from the illustrations? czar  14:13, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

One of these could replace the first non-free image in Beat 'em up. Indie game, Independent video game development, Platform game and Digital distribution in video games are also potential candidates. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 16:35, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
I've added images to Boss (video gaming), Beat 'em up and cooperative gameplay. Great work, czar! --MASEM (t) 16:48, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

"River Riders", Q*bert and IP users 99.192.34.30, 142.134.65.148, 99.192.16.41[edit]

Someone seems to have an unhealthy obsession with the name "River Riders". An editor with the IP 99.192.16.41 has removed content from the Argonaut Games page and replaced it with that title. The same phenomenon could be seen with IP 142.134.65.148 a few weeks ago, it had inserted the "River Riders" in various articles, each time deleting existing (although mostly unsourced to begin with) content without justification. No citations in both cases and the only game that can be found with the title is "River Riders 3D" for Java cellphones.

There is one blog post that mentions "River Riders" for the PC Engine, but given the posting date, there is real danger that the blogger was mislead by the current state of the Wikipedia article (http://www.retrogamenetwork.com/2014/06/25/new-turbografx-16-homebrew-atlantean-the-first-new-game-to-be-physically-published-on-hucards-in-20-years-to-be-released-next-month/)

99.192.34.30 and 142.134.65.148 have also vandalized the Q*bert article with obvious fabrications. 99.192.16.41 has also edited the Q*bert article - not vandalism, though still questionable edits. I've reverted the "River Raiders" edits in some places, but I'm not sure how to proceed with articles that have been edited twice. Could someone who's more Wikipedia-savvy go in and repair those articles that still have "River Riders" listed?

Both 99.192.34.30 and 142.134.65.148 have showed up just at one point and not made any edits since, but given the similarity of behaviour, there is the danger of one user with changing IP addresses. Derboo (talk) 14:37, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Two more IPs: 99.192.31.212 and 99.192.21.92 -Thibbs (talk) 15:10, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Clyde Mandelin redirect[edit]

Looking for some feedback on the independent notability of Clyde Mandelin at Talk:Clyde Mandelin#Redirect czar  22:18, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

PC and Mac[edit]

More than a dozen Wikipedia articles contain the clauses "PC and Mac" and "Mac and PC". Even preceded by the word "for" there are hundreds. "for PC and Mac" OR "for Mac and PC" site:en.wikipedia.org -"Wikipedia Talk" As far as I know games are released for operating systems. Android, for example, is an operating system. So are iOS, Linux, OS X and Windows. The abbreviation PC stands for personal computer. Mac, short for Macintosh, is a personal computer. It is possible to install the Linux operating system on a personal computer. Sometimes a (typically) reliable source says "PC and Mac" or "Mac and PC". There are several problems with the clauses "PC and Mac" and "Mac and PC". First all, games are released for operating systems. A "PC" is no operating system but a computer that can run a variety of operating systems, including Windows and Linux. A "Mac", Macintosh, also a PC, can run Mac OS and (Mac) OS X (and even other operating systems, like Linux). In my opinion, we should not assume that readers will understand what we're trying to say - usually: PC=Windows, Mac=OS X - but we should endeavor to be accurate. Is it possible to get consensus on whether it's okay to rewrite those clauses? What if the (typically) reliable source says "PC and Mac" or "Mac and PC"? What about Windows NT, that supported for example DEC Alpha and MIPS, should it say "Windows PC"? Curious to read what you folks think. --82.136.210.153 (talk) 23:42, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

PC is generally synonymous with Windows. I, for one, don't think there needs to be a cleanup for consistency and would advise anyone who wants to do so to remember to respect local consensus if a given article decided to phrase it a certain way. I think it's safe to make the first mention "Microsoft Windows" and/or "OS X " in the lede and infobox, but I don't think the other mentions are a big deal. I personally prefer to use "Windows PC" on first mention in the prose and then either is fine for the rest of the article. czar  00:02, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
When I come across an article that uses "PC", I change it to either DOS or Microsoft Windows, depending on the case, unless it is in a direct quote. You're right: PC is not an operating system and shouldn't be listed as a platform. That being said, I don't think we need a task force to go out and change all occurrences. Just changing them when you see them is good enough.
I think it's going too far to mention specific versions of Windows, however. The big reason is that usually we have no way of knowing what version of Windows something will run on. For example, some games written for Windows 95 run fine on Windows 7, but only after some serious tweaking and cracking or running on a VM, for example. Technically, a user can get it to run on Windows 7, but it doesn't run on Win7 easily. Just Windows as an OS is generally as far as we should go.
And as long as we're on the topic, games shouldn't list MS-DOS as a platform unless it really only runs on MS-DOS (which is probably never). Most games of the era were written for DOS, whether it be PC DOS or MS-DOS or some other variant. I change these uses when I run across them as well. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 14:25, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
Well, here's in the thing the common use of "PC and Mac" today, for most people means "Windows and OSX". Gaming in the last year has seen a huge amount of grown in Linux support and most software sites have now started to make the distinction of "Windows, OSX and Linux". As well, browser games are often cross-platform in a fractured manor and can be up to and including anything that can load a web browser. Just 10 years ago, "PC and Mac" would have been "Windows and Mac" but Mac could have still been a PowerPC based OS of OS 9 or OS X and no Linux at all. 20 years ago it meant "Windows/DOS and OS 8", etc..., etc... For a while there it looked like we were going to break things down as "x86 or RISC" or "x86 or Mobile". Even for a small window a few years ago there when OSX (since it is a Linux variant) started getting games and opening the door to Linux ports, some people were shorthanding Linux support implied by OSX support until it became more clear that support for one does not mean support for the other, sigh.
So my rambling is getting to the point that "PC and Mac" is so context sensitive to the time of use that it probably deserves greater distinction at this point if we want to be more specific where it is used. IDK. That's my 2 cents. BcRIPster (talk) 16:46, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

The Serebii "leaks", again[edit]

I've been trying to foster a discussion against the inclusion of the event previously discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Archive 106#Request for outside input on Pokémon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire. That discussion went back and forth and was made moot when official press releases came out for the leaked content (cell phone photos of an at the time unreleased comic book issue). But now, Artichoker and I have been arguing over teh inclusion of a statement regarding the fact the "leak" happened because he believes that the event of the leak was important because reliable sources cross-posted it from another website which has never been a reliable source, while I have been disagreeing with this because it is not a unique event within Pokémon news to begin with and the sources are not reporting that there was a leak but simply that the information had been posted without acknowleding that it's early (as if they believed that the content was previously published, which we established in the old discussion that it was not). This argument between myself and Artichoker has invariably been punctuated by the presence of two other editors, one on both of our sides of the discussion, so WP:3O will probably be denied. What should be done here? Should this event be acknowledged as an event in the history of these upcoming video games?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:45, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't call that a "leak" by any stretch of the word. The magazine has to be printed, it will be seen by some before it actually reaches the public and so it's more just a case of privaledge. And it appears to only happen a few days before the actual news, so again, not much of a "leak". So not necessary at all to include. --MASEM (t) 02:12, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
Masem, the only one calling it a leak is Ryulong. Not even the article wording refers to it as a leak at all. Besides that, there are multiple reliable sources that source the disputed content. Artichoker[talk] 05:27, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
The sources are themselves what you want to discuss and I'm disputing that it's even necessary to discuss the event that happened.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 05:48, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
If it was a true leak - that is, information that Nintendo never intended to make public at that moment (eg someone hacked their servers, or intercepted an internal memo, or spoke with someone on the design team outside NDA allowances, etc.), and it got wide coverage, that would be something to consider. Here we are talking information that Nintendo/Game Freaks shared with a popular magazine (at least, that's how it seems that magazine operates), and someone got their hands on a copy a week before it hit newsstands. Big whoop. That is not a leak by any stretch of the word, and those details should not be included at all. --MASEM (t) 13:16, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
Masem, I agree. It is not a leak. Not once have I ever said it was a leak. What I don't agree with is why it can't be included. As I stated in the discussions on the article's talk page, this is part of the release history of the games' and the event was covered in multiple, independent, reliable sources. Why can't this sourced information be included? Artichoker[talk] 22:33, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
The "Early reveal" (not a leak, but the best term for what I think happened) was not covered in multiple sources. They simply reiterated the details and didn't discuss anything more than just what the magazine stated. That is, there is no secondary sourcing about the fact that this information was out a few days before the magazine's publication. In the larger scheme of this, it will be forgotten. Compare to when something really is a leak, the fact there was a leak would probably be discussed to some degree (how it happened, any impact on it, etc.). One thing that I do notice common to VG editors is the way people want to write WP:PROSELINE (and yes, sometimes that is the only easy way to cover something like I've had to do with The Last Guardian's history) and not consider how the article would need to be structured well after the game's release. It is rarely important the exact dates that something about a game is revealed if the game isn't out yet. And this type of information is exactly the type that should be polished out of an article because of the little relevance on the long-scale aspect of game coverage. --MASEM (t) 22:42, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Not to get too meta here, but if the leak itself was important, we'd be able to quote a RS that discusses the importance of the leaked reporting. In the absence of that, and if this is the diff in question, I don't think it's necessary to include. czar  02:32, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
    I was also arguing against the use of the 4 refs but I figured just deleting the sentence would have been a good enough compromise.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 02:40, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Question: Has there ever been a time where this early information is wrong/different from when it's officially out? I mean, if not, it seems like a lot of wasted time to keep opposing it. Sergecross73 msg me 00:43, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
    Whether it has ever been wrong is not really the issue. It usually precedes an official press release by a couple of days and we just don't need to note that the early access happened in the grand scheme of things.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:06, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
    I'll take that as a "no". What a waste of time and effort, especially considering none of it appears controversial or BLP related. Sergecross73 msg me 10:12, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
    Fakes have appeared but it's just someone who illicitly got an early copy of the issue, which has photos that get disseminated online, and in this case these photos were picked up by more than fansites. The "leak" or "early access" or whatever is just as inconsequential as this dispute in your eyes.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:18, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
    And the fact of the matter was that the early information isn't published yet so we shouldn't technically have access to it and the posting of this early information online is such a non-event that we do not need to include it in the release history of the video game. Like no one right now outside of fansites cares that Metagross has a Mega Evo as featured in the CoroCoro issue that will be available for sale on Tuesday. It was just the E3 hype that made GameSpot bother to take shit from Siliconera who in turn took shit from Serebii.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:26, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Platforms[edit]

There were probably other users who asked this...

I want to know what should be written in the Plot and Gameplay sections for video games released on different platforms. For example Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone (video game)... It should contain subsections like this one and the plot and gameplay for every platform?--MJ for U (talk) 10:29, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Well, obviously, if the gameplay and plot are the same for all platforms, only one summary needs to be written. If they are different, as appears to be the case with the Harry Potter game you linked, then I think they handled it fairly well: different subsections for each different platform. Normally, a video game on different platforms isn't so vastly different, so I think the occurance of this situation is very low. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 13:47, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
I like the approach on this page as well. It makes sense to have a break out like this especially like in the case of so many of the 90's PlayStation games where the console was version 3/4 or 1st person perspective 3-D and the Game Boy release was either top down or side scrolling 2-D. Or even when there is a console game with a on-line Flash variant. It's probably not enough to warrant separate articles, but significant enough it should be mentioned. BcRIPster (talk) 16:12, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments wanted at Development of Fez[edit]

Development of Fez is up at GAN, after being split out from Fez during its GAN (reviewed by me). Its split is now being questioned, and we're at 2-2, so it'd be nice to get some wider comments about whether or not the split is warranted. Comment at: Talk:Development of Fez. --PresN 22:16, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Milestone discussion[edit]

750 Good and A-Class articles: 98.8% complete
(741/750)

As of this posting, we have 741 Good/A-class articles under the projects belt. Which means that we are close to reaching the milestone above. Since we are about to cross said goal, its probably best to discuss what new milestone we should have next. Any ideas? GamerPro64 02:27, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

I vote for 5% of articles/lists GA/A/FA/FL class. --PresN 03:48, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
5% of articles and lists GA-Class or better: 63.5% complete
(980/1544.5)
I like it czar  04:18, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

How many new WPVG articles are created per day/week/month? Switching to a percentage based measure could mean that you are paddling furiously just to stay still. - X201 (talk) 05:05, 12 July 2014 (UTC)