Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anime and manga/Archive 32

Full Metal Panic! Pages

After randomly browsing anime pages, I found there are quite a few separate FMP related articles that most likely should be merged. I'm not suggesting all of these be merged, just maybe we should have a bit of a look at them:

• Arm Slave
• Whispered
• Mithril (Full Metal Panic!)
• ARX-8 Laevatein
• Black Technology
• Full Metal Panic? Fumoffu!
• Full Metal Panic! The Second Raid

-- Highwind888, the Fuko Master (talk) 07:16, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Without comparing to other articles and looking for examples (I'm getting insane amounts of script errors from wikipedia...) or reading up on guidelines, I'd like to see Fumoffu and TSR retain their independance and improved where possible. TSR seems a fairly well developed article at first glance, and I think it deserves it's own article. ARX-8 could probably be merged into Arm Slave, I'm not convinced a single Arm Slave warrants it's own page (if it did why not a page for the Arbalest?). Dandy Sephy (talk) 18:26, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there is one for the ARX-7 Arbalest, which I believe deserve to be kept (from looking at some of the Gundam related articles, and probable notability). I did not list all of the related articles, as some (to my belief) deserves its own article (such as the List of Full Metal Panic! characters, List of Full Metal Panic! media, main character pages, etc) and so were not listed. The reason I'm listing these particular ones is because these would probably be better off merged into one article. -- Highwind888, the Fuko Master (talk) 00:56, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't realise a Arbalest page existed. However, I still think ARX-8 should be merged, if only due to the lower notability (not officially translated, no anime adaptation yet or for the forseeable future - likely not until the novels finish). Dandy Sephy (talk) 04:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Fullmetal individual characters merges

I have tagged three characters to merge them in List of Fullmetal Alchemist characters. Discussion started in here. Regards.Tintor2 (talk) 17:23, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

More Dragon Ball character list drama

Despite the AfD closing as merge, and that AfD being upheld in a rapid fire DRV, JJJ999 is continuing to beat the proverbial dead horse and has now started a discussion to unmerge Cell (Dragon Ball) from the list. He basically discounts the overwhelming consensus from the AfD, and I personally think this is getting into the disruptive whelm. In either case, the discussion is Talk:List of Dragon Ball characters#Unmerge Cell. Please feel free to come by and offer your views. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 23:48, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I have closed that discussion as disruptive and a waste of time. There's no reason to keep rehashing the exact same discussion over and over again. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 04:31, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Ja.wiki assist with Yasuhito Yamamoto

Can I get an assist here? From this edit, it looks like ja.wiki version of the article was merged into a longer list of ... mangaka that had been permastubs? Or ... what? Machine translation is getting me only so far. If anyone can figure out what happened, I'd appreciate it -- especially if it might affect what we do with our article. —Quasirandom (talk) 16:45, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Nihonjoe should be able to translate this, but it seems to me that you are correct in assuming that the article was merged to a list without a proper edit summary. (Note, I use the following three engines [1][2][3]—did you use all of them?). The template at the top of the page also seems to ask that articles are split from the list once enough information is available to do so. G.A.S 17:05, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Really? To me, it seems the history of ja:山本康人 is all redirects: first to one of his works, then directly to his entry on the mangaka list. —tan³ tx 17:53, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

So they've been creating a list of minor/underinformationed mangaka, in preference to stubs. Interesting. (I use Babelfish and Google -- hadn't known about Excite; thanks.) —Quasirandom (talk) 19:31, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, they do that on JAWP. I had thought about doing it here, but wasn't sure the best way to do so. It would provide a place for lesser-known (or lesser-sourced) and new mangaka to be listed without having separate articles until the article was large enough to be on its own. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 03:19, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

How would such a list fly with the notability, er, obsessed? —Quasirandom (talk) 04:02, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

That's the reason why I haven't made such a list yet. I'm still musing over how something like that might work. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 04:45, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps we could make such a list in project space and then spin out individual articles as we can? ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 04:48, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. The list will allow those who want to procrastinate have some free time to quickly know which authors needs sources, info, etc. -- Highwind888, the Fuko Master (talk) 05:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

The only issue I see is how to keep track of individual edits to the pages. One possibility is to make a subpage for each individual artist/author, and then substitute them into a main page. Then, if the section grows large enough, we can just move that subpage and remove the transclusion. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 07:21, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

In that case, the existing stubs could just as easily be transcluded from the main namespace...? The existing biography stubs are quite numerous[4] though, not to mention the voice actor stubs[5]. G.A.S 07:35, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

That's the issue though: this list would have to be outside Mainspace so it wouldn't get deleted. Therefore, all the pages transcluded on it should be outside of Mainspace, too. On a tangentially-related note, it might be good to create a page which lists all the project-related stub pages with useful information like how many articles are linking to the page, etc. This would give an indication which stubs should be expanded first. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 07:48, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I understand the issue. The list should physically be outside the main namespace, but this does not mean that we should remove the existing stubs—there are no technical restrictions on transcluding pages—and this would keep the edit histories intact; as such I am puzzled why you say that all transcluded pages should be outside of the main namespace. However, for consistency, it would help if they too are transcluded. As for such a list... here is something like it (Warning: Very large page). G.A.S 08:21, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

(Comment) Wow... 305 manga artist stubs and 662 seiyu stubs... If such a list was created, it definitely needs to be separated into many subsections... -- Highwind888, the Fuko Master (talk) 08:50, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

And there are a few stubs in here that does not have the proper stub templates applied yet (as 995 of the articles in that category are rated as stub class[6]). G.A.S 10:11, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

So getting back to my original question: should anything be done to Yasuhito Yamamoto now as a result of the ja.wiki merge? —Quasirandom (talk) 14:38, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Not necessarily. We have quite a few articles that aren't on JAWP, or are larger to varying degrees than their JAWP counterparts. I don't see any reason to get rid of an article simply because JAWP does. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 07:26, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Removing date autoformatting

With the Japanese episode list template, the links are auto-formatted, and doesn't work properly if the linking is removed (currently, putting [[2006-10-05]] as a parameter will cause it to display 26 October 2006, but if the linking is removed, it just displays 2006-10-05). Can we edit the template so it doesn't do the linking, or does it need it to function? -- Highwind888, the Fuko Master (talk) 07:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, sorry. It's a wiki thing, not to do with the template :P Can it be changed? -- Highwind888, the Fuko Master (talk) 07:06, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, technically, you're supposed to actually put October 26, 2006 and not use the ISO dates. The ones using ISO dates have to be fixed before the links are removed. The links are being removed to remove the autoformatting, hence it not working :P-- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 14:00, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

BTW, this raises another issue I've been wondering about for awhile now... should we adopt a "standard" date format for anime/manga articles? WP:DATE allows for ignoring formatting precedent on a given article with strong national ties to a topic, though that says it's specifically for English-speaking countries, and thus I'm not sure how it would affect us. Thoughts? —Dinoguy1000 18:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

WP:MOS#Strong national ties to a topic and its WP:DATE counterpart are specifically only for things in English, not things that come from a non-English-speaking country and are translated into English. We should follow WP:MOS#Retaining the existing variety as we always (should) have. —tan³ tx 18:30, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I personally think we should. There is too much mixing going on and now that the auto formatting is gone, some of our articles are a mess. As the first English version is primarily NA and it is the date format most heavily used, I personally would go with the American dating. It just seems odd to have International (AKA UK) dating on some articles, such as InuYasha, which itself jumps back and forth between individual articles within the series. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 19:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm for consistant within an article/topic, but otherwise not for a enforcing a specific format (except, not ISO is strongly preferred). —Quasirandom (talk) 19:59, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

That's interesting, I hadn't thought about consistency between the articles of a given series before... but I think that would definitely be a good thing, possibly good enough to justify ignoring the guidelines. Anyone else have thoughts on this, as opposed to a project-wide standard? —Dinoguy1000 20:00, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Topic consistancy sounds good, but I don't think we should be "enforcing" it over the whole project, because that sort of thing is exactly why we have a section on it in the MOS in the first place. —tan³ tx 20:08, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

As TangentCube says. —Quasirandom (talk) 21:03, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

If nothing else, topic consistency should, I think, be a must...as is never more clearly shown than by List of Dragon Ball episodes, where in the first two ep lists used American format, but the second two used British, so when transcluded into the one list...~goes off to make use of some RegExs to fix the second two lists~ -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 15:01, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I think a standardised format would make the pages look nicer. For all of the edits that I've done, it's been month before day, which I used because I've seen it most on the Anime pages. Thus, all that's required to remove the autoformatting is to remove the square brackets (and add a comma), so it's a bit simpler and is the one I prefer. -- Highwind888, the Fuko Master (talk) 04:13, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I've always liked the ISO format simply because it was small, and gave more room to other columns in the table, but I'm open to other options. -- Ned Scott 04:23, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I also prefer the ISO date in tables since it is sortable, in addition to the space saved. G.A.S^talk 06:21, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I use ISO a lot for work and in reports I generate because of that reason. The problem with ISO on Wikipedia, though, is it can be more confusing for readers because we have a much wider audience. To some countries, its yyyy-mm-dd but in others its yyyy-dd-mm, resulting in potential confusion as to what the date really is. For example, 2008-04-05 would be April 5, 2008 to some folks, but in some other English speaking countries, it would mean May 4, 2008. Spelling it out as April 5, 2008 or 5 April 2008 removes that issue and ensures clarity. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 04:49, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I disagree: Per definition, ISO standard is YYYY-MM-DD. It is the other numerical format that is confusing, ie DD-MM-YYYY or MM-DD-YYYY. (See Calendar date#Usage issues) G.A.S^talk 06:15, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I mean confusing to readers. Readers don't always know that ISO = YYYY-MM-DD, and in other countries, it can mean YYYY-DD-MM instead. Spelling it out and using the full month name removes that issue. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 06:21, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

As Collectonian says -- ISO has its virtues, but clarity to the general reader isn't one of them. —Quasirandom (talk) 14:39, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Collectonian. Spelling it out removes confusion. ~ Itzjustdrama? 01:22, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I also agree, but not being American I would. For wikipedia use only spelling it out is clear enough to everyone. It's confusing enough when the rest of the internet assumes you know what format their date useage is in, but you can usually make some sort of assumption based on the site (i.e. the big anime and game sites tend to be american unless they have obvious overtones towards other regions). You simply can't do that on wikipedia. Dandy Sephy (talk) 15:37, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I do have to ask, though, should we agree on a preferred date format for new articles for series that previously had no dedicated articles (its usage wouldn't be required if there ws a good reason to use a different format)? And should we update our MoS with these guidelines and (perhaps) notify WP:DATE just to make sure it's all right with everyone over there? —Dinoguy1000 18:24, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I think that would be a good idea, to have some consistency. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 18:32, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Related issue: delinkers changing formats

As noted above, so far we seem to agree that while the project shouldn't push one format over another, that topic consistency should be enforced and that, in general, which ever date format (international or american) that was used first should be retained, correct? Unfortunately, at least one of the editors going around and delinking using the scripting tools, Ohconfucius has hit a large number of our episode lists and he did not pay any attention to the existing date formats. Instead, he delinked them all to International format which, of course, now has all of those lists in conflict with the rest of their articles and with the date MoS itself regarding retaining existing date formats if the article doesn't have a strong tie to one or another. I've been going through and undoing and redoing them properly, but some help would be appreciated. I've also left him a note asking him to take more care in the future. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 13:34, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

As a note, it looks like he only did this for titles O-S, with the earlier ones fine. He was trying to be consistent with the newer ones, but he seemed cool with my explanations on the format. So they should all be cleaned up now. Yay! Might be good to double check any others if you see them hitting a list, though. I know Tony has been sticking with the article's existing format, as have I on the lists I've hit. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 15:57, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

He actually started at the top of the alphabet (start here and work your way down). I started hand-reverting these but got distracted with other fixes as well, finally burning out shortly after Gin Tama. —tan³ tx 20:15, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I was going backwards through his contribs. When I hit O, it looked like the rest were all done okay, but will check back some more. It is tiring even using the script again. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 20:23, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I actually noticed this a few days ago, but I was too lazy to really do anything about it (surprise surprise). I was spurred to install Lightmouse's script for myself, though, but haven't gotten a chance to try it yet. —Dinoguy1000 18:24, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I installed it the other day and its pretty easy once you realize the links are added to the left menu not the top :P -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 18:32, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I got a chance to try it on a few articles, and it's really nifty - my only qualm with it so far is that it doesn't seem to be able to convert ISO dates to other formats (unless I'm missing something, since I couldn't find any documentation...). —Dinoguy1000 19:11, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

That was a complaint for me too. I wonder if he could possibly add that function. The idea of changing all of the InuYasha episode lists manually makes me want to call in sick for the day :P -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 19:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Rurouni Kenshin

Aside from Sagara Sanosuke failing GA, I've also noticed that although we have pages for Samurai X: Trust & Betrayal and Samurai X: Reflection we don't have a page for Samurai X: The Motion Picture. Now, I'm still not clear on how this works for project policy (see the Full Metal Panic item above) but if separate pages are welcomed, do we need a page for the movie too? The Ova's are set before, and after the rest of the franchise, whereas the movie is a "side story" if it makes a difference. Of course, the western release of these are all named differently from the tv series, but I'm not sure if that makes any difference?

I'm going to be doing some work on various Kenshin pages that are currently start and theres a lot of stuff that needs doing, so any work on any of the pages would be appreciated! The lead of Rurouni Kenshin still needs checking, it's the obvious thing standing in the way of a GA nomination. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dandy Sephy (talk • contribs) 01:05, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

The OVAs were decided not to be merged since users saw it could have too much reception available. The movie article was merged since it was very short and did not have any ref. I think a few characters could be merged but I still want to work in Sanosuke since the reviewer did not put on hold it although he said it did not need so many fixes.Tintor2 (talk) 01:09, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, that makes sense. I'm leaving Sanosuke as I don't think I'm the right person to make the improvements. I did have a brief discussion with Collectonian regarding some of the other characters. I couldn't see any discussion regarding merges, just the suggested merge tag, and only in the talk pages not on the article. Seta Sōjirō, Yukishiro Enishi and Yukishiro Tomoe all strike me as characters deserving off their own pages (not so much Sojiro) with regards to notability, they just need improving. I haven't started a discussion regarding the proposed merges due to the lack of notes regarding reasons for the suggestion and wanting to leave Enishi and Tomoe until I finish the manga (currently most of the way through the flashback).

List of Rurouni Kenshin chapters could do with a reassesment. It's currently start but doesn't seem that different to List of Naruto manga volumes which is FL —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dandy Sephy (talk • contribs) 01:21, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

It still need summaries and the Naruto volumes have the summaries in its respective sublist.Tintor2 (talk) 01:24, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Yea. Add volume summaries for volume eight on and then I would suggest the reassessment request afterward. Delink the dates too. ~ Itzjustdrama? 01:33, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm blind then :p Collectonian has just bumped it to C, i'll try and sort the summary's out soon. Currently working on the episode list (drafting seperate season lists to bring the current large list into line with other articles Dandy Sephy (talk) 01:38, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Right, I'm not having much luck with summaries, it's harder then it sounds. I can;t even write one for the volume that is only flashback (vol20) aside from one "intermission" chapter. Dandy Sephy (talk) 02:27, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

You don't need to worry about getting it done today. If it's too difficult, you can get back to it. I guess I can lend a little help. But I haven't actually read the series so I have to do that. I guess looking at featured lists helps narrows down what the volume summary should contain. ~ Itzjustdrama? 02:50, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, but I have a habit of not getting things done if i don't do them right away. Dandy Sephy (talk) 11:16, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Separate season lists created List of Rurouni Kenshin Season 1 episodes,List of Rurouni Kenshin Season 2 episodes,List of Rurouni Kenshin Season 3 episodes. The leads all need doing, references are needed and japanese titles and airdates are incomplete but it's a start. I've also removed the episode summarys from the main list List of Rurouni Kenshin episodes which has the same problems Dandy Sephy (talk) 22:33, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Nice. I ll try to expand the lead.Tintor2 (talk) 23:47, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm now fixing all of the mistakes there. In the future, please discuss and ask for help before doing such edits if you aren't sure how to do it. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 00:20, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Collectonian has fixed my cockups, written some leads and we've both added the all the missing kanji and airdates. Most of the romaji titles still need doing if anyone can find them Dandy Sephy (talk) 02:02, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Kiuyasha Movie Shinsha Animation

Can someone have a look at Kiuyasha Movie Shinsha Animation to see if it's actually needed? An anonymous editor created it in the Talk: space, I have moved it into mainspace, but knowing next to nothing on the subject, I'm not sure if they're a notable studio or if we have the info elsewhere. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 11:16, 12 October 2008 (UTC).

I fixed a couple of wikilinks, but I can't actually find mention of this company with google at all. Well, I found two links and one of them was the speedy deletion page (the google summary was out of date). If I can't find anything else out, I'll nominate it for deletion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dandy Sephy (talk • contribs) 11:28, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

No joy, nominated for deletion Dandy Sephy (talk) 11:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

MedCab cases

MedCab has a backlog of cases. Anyone can volunteer as an informal mediator. I was wondering if an active member of WikiProject Anime and manga could adopt Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-10-07 Tien Shinhan and Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-10-08 Cell (Dragon Ball). Thank you for any assistance! Vassyana (talk) 15:43, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I've picked up both of them as they are related. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 19:30, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Xam'd: Lost Memories

Okay, so I've came across this series quite a few months ago, and now I've decided to work on it a little bit, however there are something that begins to concern me. As the article implies, the anime is available exclusively on the PlayStation Network, which leads me to wonder if the infobox should be using {{Infobox animanga/OVA}} with the ONA field set as yes, instead of the one for the anime, since as it appears the Japanese version of the article is refering it as a Web anime, which itself links back to Original net animation here in the English version. I also wonder if the list of episodes would belong in Category:Lists of anime television series episodes, as apprently the category is for anime television series, but leaving the page uncategorized would seem a little bit :\. -- クラウド６６８ 06:50, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

List of Legend of the Galactic Heroes episodes is also in that category, so I guess it's allright to put that series also in there. --Mika1h (talk) 12:19, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't that category be named as "Lists of anime series episodes", as there no categories for OVA and webseries episodes. --Mika1h (talk) 12:22, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I think the category should be renamed too, since by wording, OVAs and web anime isn't getting the love it should be getting compared to TV series.-- クラウド６６８ 13:37, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

But this is a TV series; it got a three month advance over the PSN, but it is airing on TV now, like it was always meant to. Doceirias (talk) 05:48, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Nope, Xam'd is not a TV series, but instead, is still currently exclusive to the PlayStation Network. If you click on here, the header of the section to the left specifically confirms so. The trailer, which is available on the Japanese PlayStation Store (I wouldn't bother with the one on the American store), as well as websites like Anime News Network also confirms this, with no mentioning of a TV broadcast. In case you are wondering, the three months advance refers to the American PlayStation Store getting the anime three months prior to the Japanese PlayStation Store. -- クラウド６６８ 20:35, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Issues with Tong Li (pirating company)

I've just so happened to notice that Tong Li Comics is in several infoboxes on the Anime and Manga WikiProject. Tong Li is a bootlegging company, and i'm not too sure if it should be on there... : ( — J U M P G U R U ^■TALK■ 15:17, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

For those titles they "released" as pirated materials, I'd say they should be removed. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 15:22, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I erased Tong Li off of Oh My Goddess!, although on the "WhatLinksHere", it says it's still on the page. — J U M P G U R U ^■TALK■ 15:39, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Wait a sec' the page says that he stopped pirating. — J U M P G U R U ^■TALK■ 15:42, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

It takes a moment for the WhatLinksHere to update as its cached (like search results). The Wikipedia article notes that he stopped pirating, however not that the company is now legitimately licensing manga titles, only that they started releasing original materials. I think we'd need some reliable sources showing that they held any legitimate licenses for claimed manga titles (particularly older ones like OMG). -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 15:50, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I'll just start removing them, I don't trust the company one bit. Also they bootlegged Weekly Jump, I'll never forgive em'! (kidding) I just think we should remove the links. — J U M P G U R U ^■TALK■ 16:24, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Good God, Stop! Ever since the early nineties when the copyright laws went in place in Taiwan, Tong Li has been acquiring the licenses from Japan through legal means. The article should be edited to reflect this. Shame on you to be basing your actions through information from a Wikipedia article! _dk (talk) 19:46, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

It was also based on the source used in the article. Please provide valid sources showing that they do now actually legally license manga (which as I noted above, is needed anyway to claim someone has licensed a series, be it Tong Li, Viz, or anyone else). Which really points to a much bigger issue with almost all of our articles...people are frequently allowed to indiscriminately add networks, publishers, etc without any sources at all. All such additions should be sourced somewhere in the article or in the infobox if its valid, otherwise, I think we really need to stop just letting them in if its looks legit enough. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 19:48, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I've edited Tong Li Comics. The internet isn't the best place for sources of individual license, since, unlike the States, Taiwan doesn't bother putting that stuff online when they have it on the back of each volume already. _dk (talk) 20:25, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to China Town to find out (hope they have Tong Li there). However, you do know that you can source a book? right? — J U M P G U R U ^■TALK■ 20:37, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Here is the problem though - fansubbers stick their names on their copies too, as do bootleggers of DVDs, it doesn't mean they have a legal license. Some reliable source has to actually confirm that Tong Li has a legal license - newspaper, magazine, website, something. Considering their history, I wouldn't say their own claim is sufficient. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 20:39, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

And that's the hard part. The books themselves are going to be under scrutiny, but they are themselves the best proof (They have copyright notices, legal documentation, everything, in English!) I doubt other places, the reliable sources you call them, would bother to ascertain that a series is legal when it is readily apparent. _dk (talk) 20:46, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

How about the original Japanese company who GAVE the licence? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 20:53, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm trying to find those right now, although I don't think they put those things online either. _dk (talk) 20:56, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Usually they don't put that out there (a list of who has licensed what). Normally, the word of the licensing company is good enough, when it has been established as a reputable company, or a news report on a reliable site like ICv2 or ANN. In this company's case, though, with their past history, they can't be considered a reputable/reliable company for making such claims so something else is needed. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 21:19, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

The Fang-Wan Nan guy calls himself a bootlegger and we can't find ANY reliable sources that he published them legally. Isn't that enough? Also, there's several other bootleg companies in the infoboxes, besides Tong Li. The only non-bootlegging Chinese publisher I can think of is Chuang Yi. That's not even from China! — J U M P G U R U ^■TALK■ 22:59, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Tong Li isn't from China, so what's your point? I can throw more names of Chinese-language publishers at you, but you'll either not believe me or never heard of them. Bootlegging wasn't against the law in Taiwan before 1991, so of course Fang Wan-Nan can call himself the king of pirated comics and get off scot-free! The point is, after 1992, when the law got set in place (when Taiwan was planning to get into the WTO), the publishers that continued to exist must have acquired their licenses legitimately. _dk (talk) 00:00, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

They both translate manga into Chinese, so what's your point? Find a source that says that Tong Li licenses manga with the permission of the Japanese publisher. Get it from where you found all this info that you're explaining to us right now! If it's in the manga they could have easily lied and said that they legally found the rights to the series. — J U M P G U R U ^■TALK■ 00:48, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

They could just as easily get sued by Japan, which didn't happen, unlike the other Taiwanese publishing company Daran Publishing....Yes, I'm looking for sources and sacrificing my midterm studying, please bear with me. _dk (talk) 00:56, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

This is nothing to be sacrificing that for. Do your work. : ) By the way, the page you linked looks like a blog. : ( — J U M P G U R U ^■TALK■ 00:58, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh yes, that's a blog so I did not use it to cite anything. But that blog tells of a lawsuit that Daran eventually lost and had to declare bankruptcy, which should be verifiable through old newspapers....that's beside the point now, lol. _dk (talk) 01:14, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Hm, here's someone's paper about the current state of Taiwanese comics. Page 29 says (my translation): "In 1992, new copyright laws went into place, .... The comic publishers, seeking perpetual operation, decided to stop pirating Japanese manga and sought to secure copyright agreements with Japanese publishers; finally putting an end to Taiwan's negative portrayal as "The Kingdom of Piracy". The legalisation of comics and the publishers' respect of intellectual property made the comic industry noticed and recognized by the media." Did not name Tong Li, but I gathered that every one of Taiwan's publishers were pirates at some point and converted for the law. _dk (talk) 01:28, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe it, we can source old newspapers. How about that Collectonian? — J U M P G U R U ^■TALK■ 02:17, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Old newspapers can be sourced, yes, however if it doesn't mention Tong Li specifically, it still doesn't help clarify which of their "releases" were legit ones done after the ban and which were the illegal ones from before it. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 02:32, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I think we can safely assume that anything published after 1992 would be legit. (Hence I did not revert JumpGuru's edit on Ah My Goddess, which I cannot be sure when Tong Li started publishing it) _dk (talk) 02:44, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why. CD companies like Son May still operate out of Taiwan selling bootleg after bootleg. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 03:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Digital media fall under other laws, though I have yet to see another bootleg from them after I got tricked into buying their FF9 Soundtrack Plus (!!!) I might be wrong though. _dk (talk) 04:23, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

key article in need of expert and cleanup

The character design se tion of the animae is in need of an expert. the following section is also disputed as POVed.--Ipatrol (talk) 20:04, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Ref check

Anyone own 500 Manga Heroes or The Encyclopedia of Japanese Pop Culture? At Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tien Shinhan, and editor has claimed that those two books contain significant coverage about the DB character Tien Shinhan (on page 335 for the first, no page given on the second). However, he also claimed there was extensive coverage in Anime Explosion, which I owned, checked, and found not so much as a mention of his name. Looking to see if the other two claims are valid or not as well. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 02:34, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

It may be too late, but I've ordered them for future reference. :) ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 03:40, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Cool. I may check the Encyclopedia out of my uni's library. Won't be much use for newer series since it was published in '97, but curious to see if it has anything useful for the older ones. Wish some of these authors would release some newer books so we can get some coverage of the series from the 2000s :P -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 03:59, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I own it. I'll have a look tonight. 208.245.87.2 (talk) 16:13, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Great, thanks. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 02:04, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I checked the 500 Manga Heroes and Villains and it looks like Logical Premise (talk · contribs) was lying about that reference, too. Kinda frustrating that someone would resort to lying about references in an attempt to influence the results. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:09, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks and agreed. :( BTW, that book wouldn't happen to have anything on any Tokyo Mew Mew characters would it? :) -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 05:12, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Due to Logical Premise's blatantly deceptive tactics, s/he has been warned that this sort of behavior is completely unacceptable. I hope no one else associated with this project is found to be doing such things. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:33, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and yes, there is a section about Ichigo Momomiya on p.282 of 500. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:34, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Cool! Her's is the last section I have left to do in the list so I'll check that out. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 05:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

It's not really that extensive, so you may only be able to get one or two good bits from it. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Should Robotech template be deleted

I created the template below should stay or be deleted because I feel that the Robotech character section needs a major overhaul which I have mentioned before.

Dwanyewest (talk) 16:27, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it's fine to keep it as it allows for easy navigation within the topic. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 18:58, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Some of the characters I left off the template I think need to merged to list what does anyone else think? Dwanyewest (talk) 19:38, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

It's fine to list characters who are on a list in the template, too. Just have the link do directly to the location on the list. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 20:32, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I have mentioned this before but here I go AGAIN.

List of Robotech characters is in need of reform and links formatted because its hard to read as its unwieldy and has no consistency. I added character inboxes to the most notable characters and this is a list of characters I feel should be merged and split

• Sera (Robotech character) minor character
• Corg minor character
• Macross operators minor characters
• Emil Lang (fictional character) lack of citations
• Marcus Rush lack of citations
• T. R. Edwards lack of citations
• Jonathan Wolfe (Robotech) only made one appearance in the show
• Lazlo Zand

These are the articles I think should split to avoid confusion

• Roy Focker should be split to Roy Fokker
• Bruno J. Global should be split to Henry J. Gloval

Dwanyewest (talk) 20:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I recommend discussing it over at Talk:List of Robotech characters and just leaving a link here. That way people who are watching that article, but not this one, will know about this discussion. Also, I formatted this discussion because it was getting frustrating trying to read it due to lack of indents. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:40, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

As was pointed out above, the template is fine being left alone for now, though it ultimately needs to be merged with {{Robotech}} and cleaned up along the way. I'll have a look and see what I can do with it. —Dinoguy1000 17:41, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Space Battleship Yamato dispute (sure do love hording junk)

I for the life of me cannot understand how these two articles survived Space Battleship Yamato planets,Space Battleship Yamato (spaceship) they lack notability or sources but were kept despite seeming to contradict your own guidelines as shown below. I feel that they Fails notability WP:Notability, lacks third person evidence. Fails WP:Burden

I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons.

–Jimmy Wales

Another issue I have is the article List of Space Battleship Yamato characters despite the fact I used a reliable sources on September 9th of this year albeit in Japanese from Bandai who make the video games based on the series it was still removed.[7] I have anime articles threatened with deletion or mergers with less evidence than these articles.

Dwanyewest (talk) 02:09, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Notability for Space Battleship Yamato (spaceship) was established in the second AFD. List of Space Battleship Yamato characters is a WP:SPINOUT, which is perfectly acceptable. Consensus on Space Battleship Yamato planets was "cleanup, then merge to main article".--Nohansen (talk) 02:52, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

The planets article seems rather unnecessary to me, but I believe someone referred to trying to delete the spaceship page as being like trying to delete Starship_Enterprise. I tend to agree with that as although Enterprise has significantly more notability, it's still highly significant. Space Battleship Yamato (spaceship) does NOT lack notability, but the article does need a MAJOR cleanup and improvement. As for the quote, I don't really agree except the living persons part. At the end of the day the nature of the claim and it's likelyhood is a factor. If something is blatantly false or conjecture then fair enough, but a lot of things are actually verifiable and citable but need checking or a chance to be proven. If you remove everything on sight there is no chance of doing so. It really differs on a case-by-case basis, but blanket removal is a flawed way of thinking. As for the last point, I'm not actually convinced they needed sourcing the way you did, but I'm not convinced they needed removing either. Really I think if a source is used for character names (is it really necessary?) there are better ways of doing it in my opinion Dandy Sephy (talk) 03:03, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Is it really unreasonable to have information have citations from reliable sources I am imperfect and still need to learn how to format citations properly but every piece of information I have added I have used reliable sources such as List of Voltron characters , the main voltron article and the main Robotech characters if I can manage it I fail to see why others can't manage and I am not exactly a genius.

Dwanyewest (talk) 10:17, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Manga Artist Infoboxes

So, I was looking at the Manga Artist Category (Note that I am not a member of the Manga project; I received a suggestion for a Manga Artist article from SuggestBot), and I noticed that almost every single one of them are either Stubs or Start class articles. The overwhelming majority of them have no infoboxes, so I was wondering what infobox would be best suited for these articles. Perhaps the Artist Infobox. Or maybe the Writer Infobox? -LelandRB (Chat · contribs) 21:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

The ones I monitor use Person Infobox. ~Itzjustdrama ^{C ?} 21:10, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking about using Infobox Person, but it's rather general, don't you think? Perhaps Comics Creator Infobox is in order. Note, I'm not trying to change anything fundamental concepts of Wikipedia here, I just want to know which Infobox to use, so I can add Infoboxes to all the sad stubs sitting the category. -LelandRB (Chat · contribs) 02:19, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Welcome, and thank you for the help. I had a look at the infoboxes in use on some of the higher quality biography articles[8], and it seems that {{Infobox Comics creator}} is the more common infobox (In said articles, it is used three times). Regards, G.A.S^talk 05:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

So I guess we have to go and change them from person to comics creator? ~Itzjustdrama ^{C ?} 17:42, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I say leave things alone. Though personally, I prefer {{Infobox Person}}. --Farix (Talk) 02:53, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks for the replies. I'll use Comics Creator from now on. I don't like using the Person infobox – it makes me feel like the biography is about someone unimportant. :P -LelandRB (Chat · contribs) 02:21, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Suggest policy change. Can we include unlicensed fanfiction/doujinshi?

My article based on a popular, well written doujinshi with good artwork, is up for deletion review. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_Genesis_Evangelion_RE-TAKE Many object to it based on the fact that is a doujinshi, and it was suggested I post here, for a policy change.

So here is what I suggest the rules be:

1. If www.trafficestimate.com or a similar website confirms the website of the official author gets a significant number of hits that it is in fact a notable series.

2. If a Google search for the title shows that over 50 thousand people(or whatever a reasonable number is determined to be) have written about the series on their websites, blogs, or forum post, then it is in fact notable.

3. That since major established websites that review licensed manga, don't review any doujinshi at all(I checked around for some time and found none that do), that it isn't reasonable to require that doujinshi have references as other manga do. Not as long as one of the two requirements listed above have been fulfilled, proving it is in fact a notable series.

4. That doujinshi be classified in two sections. One for those with most of the pages dealing with sex, and the other for those which are mostly plotline, and that that plotline isn't just filler for an excuse to have sex with the characters. Just as if a significant number of magazines were pornographic, you wouldn't classify all magazines printed as being that way, so should we eliminate the inherit bias some might have against doujinshi, since the ones circulated the most are apparently of an adult nature. Not that many doujinshi do have a bit of sex in them, just as regular Japanese manga often does. I believe Gantz is one of the most popular manga in Japan right now, and while not the main focus of the story, they do throw in nudity and sex a lot.

5. Since Japanese copyright law allows doujinshi only to be sold in Japan, the lack of it listed in any major retailer's sites, should not work against its claim to notability.

Precedence Many web comics already have articles, even when they are fan made unlicensed works set in the Final Fantasy world, even when characters from that series are used. Should doujinshi be treated any different, simply because it isn't often display on a website in the same manner?

Anyway, if you haven't read up on doujinshi yet, let me give you a brief overview. The Japanese copyright laws allow anyone to publish things without a license from the creators of a series, as long as it is within a limited number. You can use the same characters, and everything else in the series, and then make money off of it in Japan. Scanlations of these series are where most fans outside of Japan get it from, just as they do manga which hasn't been released yet. Even the most popular manga series around today, were nothing but scanlations for years before those in Japan decided to notice the large audience, and release licensed versions. My point being of course, you should not think of doujinshi as any different than regular manga. According to the wikipedia article on doujinshi, many famous creators of very popular manga and anime series started out as doujinshi creators. I believe a phenomenon this important deserves its own category. Dream Focus (talk) 16:51, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but absolutely not. It completely violates WP:N and there is a good reason those reliable websites do NOT review doujinshi - it is fanfic whether you like it or not, and in general unnotable to anyone but a handful of die hard fans. Unless the work has actually received significant coverage in reliable sources, it is not notable here and doesn't belong. Nor is this the place to even attempt to try to take WP:N out of the equation. Doujinshi is not like regular manga, its fan create stuff. Many US producers/writers "allow" fans to make fanfics without punishment, but that doesn't make them notable nor worthy of inclusion here. The article should rightly be deleted. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 17:05, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

If the work is "notable", I don't see the problem with it having an article. It's not like Wikipedia has anything against derivative works: Cthulhu Mythos, James Potter and the Hall of Elders' Crossing, Star Trek: Phase II... And it's not like WP:ANIME has anything against dojinshi (Haibane Renmei, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, Voices of a Distant Star) since "major aspects of fandom" (i.e. fan fiction) are supposed to be within the project's scope.--Nohansen (talk) 17:33, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Every one of those examples you've listed have one thing in common - they have multiple (and official) adaptations. Official manga, TV series, OVAs, etc. I think we've established in the past that adaptation = notability. Now if Gainax were to make some RE-TAKE OVAs or something, I'd be all for the recreation of the RE-TAKE article, but... 208.245.87.2 (talk) 16:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

...It's simply that the vast majority of dōjinshi is unnotable. True, many mangaka got their start creating dōjinshi series, but how many of those series have coverage here, or for that matter have even a lick of notability? As has been stated elsewhere, while the concept of dōjinshi is notable, individual dōjinshi almost never are. —Dinoguy1000 18:09, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Others posting in the AFD of Re-Take kept stating it wasn't notable because it was dojinshi, and one suggested that if I wanted articles for it I should post here for a rule change. If it sells in many Japanese stores, legally in Japan do to their copyright laws, I believe it is notable enough to have an article about it. RE-TAKE I found, was in the top 10 sales one week in one store, I adding that to the article. Does anyone know how to get sales figures for a doujinshi, or how many sales it would have to make to be considerated notable? Is there a set number? Dream Focus (talk) 18:22, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

This "legal in Japan" thing is a misconception, I think. Just because the publishers allow it for the most part doesn't make it legal. There was an article about the popularity of manga in the November 2007 issue of Wired, and half (or more) of that article was about dōjinshi and the implicit agreement between circles and publishers, where everyone admits that using others' IP is illegal, but the publishers turn a blind eye to it because it's better for business. —tan³ tx 22:17, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

IANAL, but I used to be a fansubber back in the old pre-digital days (laserdisc to SVHS tapes, lol). I made a bit of a study of these sorts of subjects. It is explicitly ILLEGAL, in both Japan and the USA, as both countries are signatories to the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works. Of interest are Article 12, which states "Authors of literary or artistic works shall enjoy the exclusive right of authorizing adaptations, arrangements and other alterations of their works." 208.245.87.2 (talk) 16:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

You state the doujinshi in question was in the top 10 sales in one week in a particular store. Heres my take: the stores usually selling doujinshi are specialist stores such as Melonbooks [9]]. These stores are not like Barnes and Noble or any other regular large book store that you'd find in Europe or America (national differences prevent me making a more detailed list), they cater almost specifically to buyers and collectors of anime/manga, especially Otaku (and I mean the actual meaning and "negative" connotation of the word, not the "American fandom" use of the term to simply mean "anime fan"). In short, the stores primary customer is the sort of customer who buys lots of doujin (hentai or not), they are not the average Japanese consumer. Being in the top 10 doujinshi at a specialist doujinshi store does not make it notable outside of doujinshi circles. Municipal Force Daitenzin is a notable doujinnshi (that REALLY needs improving, but thats another matter). Why is it notable? Well, it's by a notable author Rikdo Koshi(Creator of Excel Saga), it actually led to the creation of Excel Saga (which is definately notable), and it also forms the basis of much of Excel Saga's plot mechanics - as Dinoguy stated this is a exception to the rule. Re-Take isn't by a notable author (in the greater context), it's existence has had no effect on the notability of anything else including the material it's based on, and basing anything on Re-Take will not improve it's notability unless by some major event where Gainax animates it (no chance). Trying to change wiki policy solely because an article you created and/or had heavy involment on simply isn't going to work, especially against so much opposition Dandy Sephy (talk) 03:54, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I've got a general idea of what it takes for something to be notable, but it definitely isn't my cup of tea, and I've had run-ins over it in the past... So someone else should answer that, although I can say that those who said it wasn't notable because it was a dōjinshi are dead wrong. —Dinoguy1000 18:40, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Just because there are some notable webcomics doesn't mean that all webcomics are notable. In fact, the vast majority of webcomics aren't notable. And just because there are some notable webcomics or some notable dōjinshi doesn't mean that any particular dōjinshi series is notable. Likewise, just because something is popular or generates a lot of Ghits doesn't mean that it is notable either. (And I'm not particularly impressed by the over 1,000 his a more refined serach test yields.) Notability is based on coverage by third party publications that are recognized as being reliable.

But this isn't the place to be discussing changes to the notability guidelines. We can only discuss the applications of the existing guidelines. Discussions about changes should take place at WT:NOTE instead. But I'll warning you ahead of time. Your proposal is already DOA. --Farix (Talk) 21:13, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I prefer the coverage by hordes of people giving their opinions, not just the coverage of a small number of reviewers giving theirs instead. Thus I believe the system must be changed. Dream Focus (talk) 00:33, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Your "refined search" eliminated blogs and forums, nothing more, which is where most of the 50,000 hits were from. If that many people decided it was notable enough to comment on in their blogs and forum post, then surely it is notable. And you can't predict if my proposal will be DOA, since all things on wikipedia are decided by a handful of people who just happen to be around at the time, and decide to get involved. There is no way of knowing how things will end up until you roll the dice and take your chance. Dream Focus (talk) 00:33, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Of course his search did. Those are not reliable sources. We do not look at people's personal blogs and forum posts as reliable sources, period. And yes, in this case we can pretty accurately predict that your proposal will not fly. Its already been shown repeatedly in other similar proposals. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 00:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

As Collectonian pointed out, blogs and forum post have absolutely no bearing on a subject's notability. That is why we use coverage by reliable sources to determine notability. No such coverage exists because the subject is a fan work. Very rarely do fan works receive any coverage by a reliable source. But when they do and depending on the type of coverage, they become notable. I also know that your proposal is doomed to fail over at WT:NOTE because the movement over there is for a more stricter definition of notability, as opposed to your attempt to make it broader. --Farix (Talk) 01:11, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Specifically, the first couple of points of your proposal basically fall under the "Why you shouldn't use Google searches or traffic counters to demonstrate notability" sections of, among other pages, Wikipedia:Search engine test. Confusing Manifestation(Say hi!) 22:50, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Is there any possible way to show how many people have read a doijin? Other than searching for how many people posted in blogs and/or forums about it? It seems that if the only way to be notable is to be reviewed somewhere which never reviews this type of thing, then its basically impossible. Dream Focus (talk) 00:34, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. Unless a work becomes mainstream enough to be written about in reliable places, it is not notable. Doujinshi are not inherently non-notable, but they are a niche product selling limited print runs to a limited audience, and rarely meet the high standards Wikipedia keeps. Doceirias (talk) 01:51, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

All this is true, but as was said above, one must always remember that "being a doujinshi" is not, inherently, a reason to nuke an article. It has to fail WP:N. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 02:21, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank god I made a point of saying exactly that, then. Doceirias (talk) 02:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

The only time I would include a dojinshi would be if *maybe* (I'm not sure) it was made by a well-known author (i.e. a dojinshi artist who later became a "published" artist) or if it became notable in the press (i.e. the story itself became controversial in the Japanese press) WhisperToMe (talk) 17:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

That would be appropriate, if the dojinshi was mentioned by the author or others as a significant reason they came to prominence, and as you say, the author themselves is well-known or at least items he creates.Jinnai (talk) 04:15, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Strawberry Panic! peer review

As discussed earlier with Malkinann, we are going to attempt to get Strawberry Panic! up to FA, but we'll need the project's help. Specifically, a peer review has been started for the article, and helpful input would be useful from anyone willing to look the article over. Not to mention that it'll have to go through a serious copyedit before FAC. Hopefully with the project's help we'll have four FAs by the end of this year.--十八 08:05, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Hamtaro - I think it should be split

I think we should split the Hamtaro article - one article could be about the storybook series and the franchise, and the other could be about the anime series. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:39, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean creating a list for manga chapters and one for anime episodes? That should be suitable.Tintor2 (talk) 17:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, one for the storybook and the franchise and one for the anime. There may be Hamtaro comics, but I'm not sure where they are. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:53, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

An article on the storybook series wouldn't fall within this project's scope, would it?--Nohansen (talk) 18:00, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

If the storybook info was combined with the franchise info (I think in addition to the Hamtaro books there are also comics available too), I think the article would. WhisperToMe (talk) 18:11, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I checked the article and... it's basically an article on the anime series. So it'd be more like creating an article on the storybook (and franchise), rather than splitting what we already have. I think it's a good idea.--Nohansen (talk) 18:19, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

The thing is that the storybook is the original series; the anime was created as a spinoff. Even though the anime is larger and more influential, the storybook is still the original series. Plus, the Japanese Wikipedia has a similar division in which the anime is separate. WhisperToMe (talk) 18:41, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I know that (I read it in the article, just now). But, as to not screw up the article's history, the current anime article should remain and a new article on the storybook must be created. You see, Hamtaro (the article) started as, and practically still is, an article on a "children's anime television program based on Ritsuko Kawai's animated storybooks".--Nohansen (talk) 18:51, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, what I will do for now is see if I can add more material about the storybook series and information about other aspects of the franchise. Anyhow much of the "anime" info is taken up by character profiles, and they need to be split to a new article. WhisperToMe (talk) 20:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

New Cat?

An IP has suggested that we create Category:Shueisha manga and add it to the appropriate articles. This would mirror what has been done with other publishers, particularly English ones such as Viz, Tokyopop, etc. However, I vaguely remember their being some discussion over whether that was the appropriate name for categories containing titles published by a company, so figured I'd check here before going ahead and doing the full create and okaying its addition to articles. Thoughts? -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 22:41, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Are you referring to a discussion on whether to use Category:Manga published by Shueisha or Category:Shueisha manga? --Farix (Talk) 22:47, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I seem to remember there were earlier discussions about whether Category:Viz Media manga, for example, was the correct name to use or not, but I can't remember where those discussions went. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 22:51, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the appropriate name would be Category:Shueisha titles. See Category:Tokyopop titles.--Nohansen (talk) 22:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

As noted in that discussion, though, right now, most of our cats don't use that format. That's why its confusing :P -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 23:00, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps they should, so they fit'd into the overall scheme of things. Categories like Category:Tokyopop manga or Category:Tokyopop manhwa could be sub-categories of Category:Tokyopop titles.--Nohansen (talk) 23:15, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Another List of Dragon Ball characters merge discussion

As the original merge discussion at Talk:List of Dragon Ball characters#Tien Shinhan was felt to not be a true consensus, and the AfD became a nightmare with fake, but seemingly plausible sources being declared, a new discussion regarding whether Tien Shinhan should be merged to the list has been started at Talk:List of Dragon Ball characters#Tien Shinhan - round 2/3. Project views would be appreciated. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 22:48, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I oppose the entire process being "restarted", which is another way of saying you plan to ignore the input of everyone who had a say only a few weeks ago, before the AfD and the issue being "resolved". Since you made the exact opposite claim (that I should accept the AfD for now, and stop stirring up trouble) with the Cell AfD, it is laughable for you to suggest such an outcome for Tien (which is the exact outcome I sought after the Cell AfD). If you want to continue discussion at Tien's merge section, feel free (though frankly I think consensus has now been reached), but to suggest only 7 days after the last person made input on the Tien merge discussion that you are going to create a new section buried at the bottom of the page which ignores the previous discussion is wildly in opposition to consensus.JJJ999 (talk) 23:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

It's probably useless to tell you this, but four "keep"s and three "merge"s is not a consensus, and creating new sections at the bottoms of talk pages is standard process, not insidious burial. Furthermore, there is no call to complain that someone only waited 7 days before starting a new discussion when the old discussion was a mere 5 days long. --Masamage ♫ 23:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Looks like someone has not followed this. What you just said is factually incorrect. Tien's discussion was not 5 days long, unless you mean the AfD (not the merge, which was being discussed a week ago, and which was open for about a month)JJJ999 (talk) 23:48, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

(reposting same response to same thing posted all over the place) No, it is not inappropriate. YOU yourself had the original merge discussion invalidated after it was already closed. Just because people kept adding stuff after it was already closed did not reopen the issue. The AfD came AFTER that discussion was over, and it subsequently ended with "do not delete" and an edict to "discussion the merge on the talk page" rather than a straight merge or keep, making a new discussion not only fully appropriate but also necessary. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 00:38, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

You are a liar. Anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear would be lying to themselves to pretend you didn't just lie flat out. The merge discussion was closed erroneously by you, then it was re-opened by 2 admins who said you had acted erroneously. It was never closed.JJJ999 (talk) 00:46, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

You closed that discussion as merge. I challenged the result. 2 Admins overturned it. Discussion resumed. You were unhappy with the way the discussion was going, so to circumvent it you went to AfD. the AfD called for discussions to resume on the talk page. It certainly didn't call for the old discussion to be abandoned. It's a flat out lie to suggest you closed the discussion. Indeed, you left the "merge discussion" link on Tien's page, and when I removed it you undid my revision (and then pupported to create a "new" discussion). You also asked various admins (unsuccessfully) to have the AfD discussion added on to the merge discussion on the talk page. Nice try.JJJ999 (talk) 00:51, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Wrong, again, but I'm not going to keep this bullcrap of posting the same stuff in 3-4 places because you like to forum shop. Stick to one place to discuss and leave it there. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 00:56, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Genre article lists vs categories - please help

So the current fashion in genre articles (such as mecha, magical girl and harem (genre)) is for lists of examples to be handled via categories, yes? Unless you've got something particularly interesting to say about them, like they influenced the genre as a whole... Yuri (term) has an embedded list, and because of this, I've had some difficulty with an editor in the past over at yaoi because it doesn't have an embedded list (specifically for "yaoi/shonen-ai as an additional element" - which would be for those titles which aren't blatant and may not be marketed as yaoi, but may be slashable or have secondary/comic relief gay characters). An IP address now also really really wants an embedded list and has personally attacked me on the yaoi talk page. (which I removed) I'd like to still address their point, as it seems that when the list was originally removed there was little discussion on Talk:Yaoi about it. As I am a major contributor to the yaoi article, I'd appreciate some uninvolved people giving their views, and I'd also like to know more about the original arguments which led to the current fashion for categories over embedded lists. Thanks. -Malkinann (talk) 23:01, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

The problem with genre example lists is, when do you stop with the examples? Unless you set an arbitrary limit, the list will continue to grow and the entire point of an example list is lost. In most cases, it is better to have no list then to constantly battle over how many examples to have and what to use as examples. Another problem with this particular list is the problem of original research. Unfortunately, I see most of the titles being added to that list on an "I know it when I see it" bases instead of using reliable sources. --Farix (Talk) 23:33, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

The list at the yuri article gets around this original research problem by requiring every series to have a source discussing its yuri-potential, so the logical reply is that the theoretical list at yaoi could do that too. I gather that the yuri "additional" list is meant to be exhaustive rather than exemplary, but as there's more yaoi published than yuri, that could cause problems too. -Malkinann (talk) 23:39, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

The problem with an exhaustive list is that it overwhelms the article it is in. --Farix (Talk) 23:53, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I say 'exhaustive', but the criteria for inclusion that are currently agreed on in the yuri talk are that there should be a wiki article for the series and that there should be a source for it. Another possibility is perhaps a List of yaoi titles, but what kind of advantage would that afford? The thing is, the language used from the IP was quite inflammatory, and as there's not a lot of collaboration going on at yaoi, I'm usually it as far as discussions go. So that opens me up to charges of ownership and suchlike. I'm also wondering, in the back of my head, if we could possibly merge the two categories (shonen-ai and yaoi) into one called "Boys Love" for easy maintenance purposes... but that has its own issues associated with it. (is it the right term, loss of resolution)-Malkinann (talk) 00:15, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Fansite or Reliable source?

I know the importance of using reliable sources, but can a fansite also be a reliable source if it is of above average quality, reliable and well written? In particular I'm looking at http://furinkan.com/ which is a site concerning the works of Rumiko Takahashi. As fansites go, it's incredibly reliable in my experience and I think it should be classed as RS. If not, then it needs to be removed from articles that already use it (i've spotted a couple) Dandy Sephy (talk) 17:00, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

"Rumic World" is a valuable resource for all things Rumiko. ComiPress' did a feature on Furinkan.com in 2007 (link) and the site appeared in Animefringe's "Top 25 Must Visit Anime Websites" three-years running: 2003, 2004 and 2005.--Nohansen (talk) 18:00, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, but that doesn't answer my question! At the end of the day if it's still considered "only" a fansite (no matter how good), it's not RS if I understand correctly. I'm looking for a project consensus on if it's useable as a RS or not Dandy Sephy (talk) 18:07, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

According to WP:SPS, "self-published material may be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article"... ComiPress calls the site "one of the most complete English guide to the works of Rumiko Takahashi". Animefringe says it's a "comprehensive resource". I think it qualifies. Also, I seem to remember some anime news sites like AnimeNation and Anime News Network have used "Rumic World" as a source.--Nohansen (talk) 18:17, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Serves me right for not following the links properly :p Dandy Sephy (talk) 18:34, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I would say that Furinkan.com is on the level of Nausicaa.net for depth of coverage and reliable information. Both have been around since around 1996, too. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 19:53, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Merging Ginyuu Meika into Full Moon o Sagashite

Hi. There was a consensus for merging Ginyuu Meika into Full Moon o Sagashite. I tried to figure out how to do it but I am not sure. Can some more familiar with thee subject do it? -- Magioladitis (talk) 20:22, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

That AfD needed more discussion it would seem. I can't see why on earth it would be merged to the FMoS article. It isn't related to the series, it was just tacked into its volumes, same as most other one-shots are. It doesn't have any place there at all and would just be removed later. It should have just been deleted like other unnotable one-shots. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 23:46, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Or merged into the author's page. Doceirias (talk) 23:54, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think anyone would complain if it was merged to the author's page. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 02:22, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

That would also work, and be more fitting I think. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 02:39, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem with that. Thanks, Magioladitis (talk) 11:11, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Prince of Tennis character merges

Over the past few days, there has been a large number of Prince of Tennis characters being merged by User:TTN into List of Prince of Tennis characters. None of these merges have been discussed at all, which I'm pretty sure is the complete wrong way to go about it. I don't want to engage in some pointless edit warring about this, but I don't think this should be happening, so I thought I should bring this up here. I'm not against merges happening (although I think a lot of the articles getting merged were fairly substantial on their own), but the complete disregard for even attempting to discuss these changes before they happen is just wrong.Kuwabaratheman (talk) 03:48, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

In general, I'd say the merges are appropriate in terms of the individual characters not being notable and more than likely, a merge discussion would have ended with them being merged. However, there still should have been a discussion first, and looking at his merges, it seems like he also removed a lot. I don't know how valuable much of it was, but it would be good if someone from the project reviewed to at least make sure the merges were done properly. Unfortunately, TTN has ignored requests that he do merge discussions instead of AfDing or just merging himself, which is why there is yet another ArbCom about the whole issue. I think its safe to say we tend to be pretty good about neutrally evaluating whether character articles should be merged to a list and doing the merges after the discussions are closed. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 05:06, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I've attempted to persuade TTN to use the project merge tag and let us work through the backlog at a reasonable rate, but he doesn't really listen to anyone. So far, I haven't seen him merge or AfD anything that didn't deserve it, but he isn't much interested in handling the process peaceably. Doceirias (talk) 05:39, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Given that even the talk page of the main character has nothing relevant at all and only one single discussion even from this year, I felt that a merge discussion would end with very few people. If anyone had reverted anything, I would have started one (please nobody do that just because). I've read and watched both versions of the series, so nothing relevant to understanding the characters should be removed in the end. TTN (talk) 17:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

If notice were posted here, there would have been a discussion. That's why most of us will post a note here when a merge discussion has started. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 18:35, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I didn't suggest starting a merge discussion; I suggested adding the merge=yes tag to the project banner, and letting us handle the backlog. We have quite a large backlog, so this would be slower, but it would also avoid stepping on people's toes. I've yet to see you nominate or merge anything that didn't warrant it; it's simply a matter of doing things in a less aggressive fashion. Doceirias (talk) 03:18, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I've never crossed paths with TTN and I don't have a beef with him, but it seems Doceirias was right when he said TTN "doesn't really listen to anyone". For example, the AFD for Gundam Epyon recently closed as "merge and redirect to List of Gundams in Gundam Wing" but TTN decided to unilaterally redirect (not merge) the article to a random character's article. I, too, would like to see TTN step back a little and let us take care of "the cruft", but it doesn't seem like that will happen anytime soon.--Nohansen (talk) 19:19, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

When they end with "merge", its an editorial decision to merge it or not. The details of that article are exceedingly unnecessary, as with most of the Gundam articles, so there really is nothing to merge. I have watched and read a number of series, so I'm not out of my element here or anything. I generally know the appropriate level of detail necessary to cover characters and elements such as these. I just like to go a bit faster than other people.TTN (talk) 19:35, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Soul Eater chapters

Has gone rather stagnant from a lack of commentary, and I would appreciate any and all comments on the nomination (as the nomination will default fail if it does not). Thanks, — sephiroth bcr ^(converse) 16:20, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Ditto for Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of D.Gray-man episodes and Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of D.Gray-man chapters. All comments are welcome, and the Soul Eater chapters nomination is still open to fresh input. Cheers, — sephiroth bcr ^(converse) 20:44, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

List of Captain Tsubasa characters

SuggestBot suggested that I edit this article so I took a look at it. It is currently list-class, with very little information, and marked needing urgent attention. I don't know the series at all and because it is very broad, I'd like to know if anyone who knows the series a bit can help me out a bit. By the way, the main article is also in need of help. ~Itzjustdrama ^{C ?} 03:26, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Episode summaries

I'm currently redoing List of Urusei Yatsura episodes in sandbox to the correct format (now I know what it is and have a guide for it :P). The first batch of episodes for the show contain 2 short storys in each 'episode", each with seperate title screens. I'm adding both titles to the table, but do I need to add both summaries? Dandy Sephy (talk) 16:52, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

It has the actual episode, then two short stories, or the episodes are made up of two short stories each? -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 19:35, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

The 25 minute episode is broken up into two 12 minute stories with separate titles. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 19:51, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, the for the original question yes, both stories should be summarized. Oh, a few weeks ago there was a discussion on the best way to format those kind of series, but can't remember what series it was for. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 20:02, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, thats right. Not a problem, just wanted to save a small amount of effort :p Galaxy Angel would be a likely source for such a discussion. I think all of the first 4 series are all 2x10minutes on dvd. Dandy Sephy (talk) 20:19, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

If that's being fixed, the Japanese title for each episode should be added, too. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 02:25, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I'm adding all the pertinent info. Luckily Furinkan and ANN are goldmines :) I've done the first 50 or so in sandbox, although those are mostly without summary's. Dandy Sephy (talk) 18:40, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

and the sumaries I have done will violate Wikipedia:Copyvio so I'll have to remove them Dandy Sephy (talk) 15:08, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

About the abusive creation of fictional characters, groups and places in anime and manga

There're too many articles about fictional stuff which do not have independent articles on Japanese Wikipedia, such as Chrollo Lucilfer, Hunters Association, Zoldyck Family, Mafia Community (Hunter × Hunter), Phantom Troupe, Chimera Ants (all about Hunter × Hunter), which is quite weird to me for the excessive fancruft and the fact that Japanese Wikipedia in fact has stricter standards toward fictional things. I think the project should take action to merge these non-notable articles, for they usually do not have independent reliable sources, rarely studied independently by anime and mange researchers, and fictional things generally should not have independent articles. --RekishiEJ (talk) 18:21, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

See the note above. We're working as fast as we can. There aren't that many of us compared to the thousands of articles ya know and often times we have to deal with fans who don't care about Wikipedia's guidelines and engage in lengthy campaigns to block merges or undo them or to just recreate articles over and over. Right now, our articles tagged to be merged is numbering above 720. And I still don't think we're as bad as the TV arena...go browse the soap pages sometimes, they even make pages for the freakin babies! :-p -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 18:31, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

You're going to LOVE me then, I'm likely to be starting two or 3 merge discussions this week concerning about 10 articles :p Dandy Sephy (talk) 18:44, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Cool :) I'm still making my way through the already approved merges on a few different series. Getting through the discussions is generally easy, its the actual merging that takes time. LOL -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 19:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

.If you think thats the biggest fancruft from the project, just see the characters articles from Saint Seiya.Tintor2 (talk) 19:01, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

...I am sure thar is not as bad as most of the articles in here... G.A.S^talk 19:25, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

You should see the Tenchi Muyo! character articles. Almost every minor character seems to get one, and further, their writing in most of them is a horrific mess that in no way follows the Manual of Style for fiction, sounding more like fansite profiles than encyclopedic articles. (Example: Seto Kamiki Jurai. That's just painful to read - it sounds like a fanboy/fangirl of the character wrote it.) I've lost most of my free time thanks to finally getting a job, but I could use some help in cleaning up and merging the lot of them. NeoChaosX (talk, edits) 19:34, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there are lots of them. Sometimes, fixing the mess is an uphill battle, as seen with the problems with the Dragon Ball mergers. And the Gundam articles are the biggest mess we have. It's going to take several years before we can finally cleanup the mess unless we get a swarm of highly dedicated editors who are well versed in Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. --Farix (Talk) 01:24, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I just want to note that just because the Japanese Wikipedia doesn't have an article on something, it doesn't mean that the topic is not notable (even with anime and manga topics). I recommend caution when using that as the only justification for consideration for deletion. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 01:48, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Not to mention, calling it 'abusing' doesn't see like good faith to me. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 02:05, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Seconded. See also WP:CRUFTCRUFT while you're at it. 208.245.87.2 (talk) 12:48, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd agree there. I wouldn't call the Japanese Wikipedia a good model for deciding deletion or much of anything else. They don't have separate articles on characters, but they also rarely have separate articles on anything. A series article is one huge page with episode lists, chapter lists, character lists, etc, while rarely having any actual non-plot info (like production and stuff). I've also yet to see a JA article have a source. So the JA wiki not having character articles is meaningless. Our own guidelines, such as the lack of real-world notability and significant coverage in reliable, third party sources should be the measures of merging, deleting, or keeping. Also, I have to agree that calling it "abusing" is not only lacking AGF, but also seems to be trying to point to the project as the place of blame, when the fast majority of those character articles were (and still are) created by new users and fans who are not part of the project and have no clue about our guidelines and policies.-- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 13:09, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

List of anime conventions lead

I have tweaked the lead of List of anime conventions last night hoping to discourage the inclusion of redlinks and to encourage editors to write the article first before adding the convention to the list. --Farix (Talk) 11:13, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

InuYasha character merges, Part 2

The second round of discussions on merging potentially unnotable character articles from InuYasha has begun at Talk:List of InuYasha characters#Merges, Round Two. Please feel free to drop by and offer your input. :)

And, as a random reminder, when doing character merges, please remember to use {{CharR to list entry}} rather than just {{R from merge}} for the redirection template!-- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 18:20, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Project Scope

I was assessing Wonder Project J2: Koruro no Mori no Josette for Tag and Assess 2008; it appears like this is an article about a video game which incidentally mentions a manga adaptation but doesn't go into detail. Would this article fall within our scope? --Kraftlos (talk) 07:10, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I think so - I recently tagged Guin Saga as being under our scope - an anime adaptation is planned to air in "Spring" 2009. -Malkinann (talk) 07:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion: Restore deleted Funimation category, or re-delete ADV's category.

I noticed that the category which lists titles released by Funimation had been deleted (Category:Funimation), yet other anime companies have categories such as ADV Films (Category:ADV Films), although in ADV's case, theirs was deleted and then restored.

We should either agree to have categories for all, or have categories for none. On the negative side, there'd be a LOT of titles to list, in fact, so many that I'm skeptical as to whether categories would be properly maintained. Be that as it may, I'm slightly in favor of having them, although again, I say we should either have them for none or have them for all.

So, I move that we either restore Funimation's category, or re-delete ADV's category.

(Wiki-n00b here, so I apologize in advance for any wiki-gaffes). XStylus (talk) 09:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

That cat was renamed to Category:Funimation Entertainment. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 18:45, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah. I'll just create a redirect then. XStylus (talk) 05:42, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's proper to create categories that redirect to other categories.--十八 06:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Technically, it's not possible to redirect categories to other categories, this is why we have to use {{category redirect}} in such cases. —Dinoguy1000 18:36, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Robotech comics

I wanna use additional sources regarding the Robotech Franchise I was wondering if this would be considered a reliable source before it would be taken down.[10]

Dwanyewest (talk) 05:09, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Spine and back cover characters

I've noticed on a few chapter lists that occasionally the characters depicted on the spine (e.g. List of Fullmetal Alchemist chapters) and back cover (can't remember an example ATM) get listed in addition to those on the front cover. Is this okay, and if so, how should it be formatted? In addition, on the Tsubasa: Reservoir Chronicle chapter list, the cover characters from the deluxe edition are also listed - what about listing them for other editions (such as kanzenban and deluxe editions)? —Dinoguy1000 17:47, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

~poke~ Anyone? —Dinoguy1000 19:51, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Woops, meant to answer sooner. I don't think the back and spine characters really need to be listed. The deluxe editions should, at best, have a basic list and really they don't need listing at all. At best, just a sentence or two noting re-releases in deluxe/kanzenban versions. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 19:55, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

No prob... ;) That's actually about what I was expecting, and I'll go ahead and remove the characters from the two lists I pointed out above. —Dinoguy1000 20:50, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Merge discussion gone mad

Can a few reasonable, articulate people please join in at Talk:Death Busters#Merge proposal? I have a really hard time maintaining civil discussions with people who only want to punch me in the face. --Masamage ♫ 20:34, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

When I'm having to ask folks to calm down and stop the personal arguments, you know something is wrong. :P Its getting quite a bit testy in there, so maybe a little admin presence might be a good thing. I've already left warnings on two folks pages. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 14:37, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Angel of Darkness

Angel of Darkness could really use some love. Its been tagged for notability issues despite it being (I believe) on of the top hentai series in Japan and having a live action US version. Unfortunately, its age does make sources harder to come by, but still, we should be able to do more than what it has now. Any one want to pop in and help out? -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 03:20, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

What is its age? In the infobox it says 2007 and 2006, but in the categories it says 1994? If it really is from 1994 maybe Anime from Akira to Princess Mononoke might have something on it? -Malkinann (talk) 03:35, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Woops...my boo boo. The original series is from 1994. I think the live action is 2006, or at least that's when critical mass announced it was releasing it. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 03:48, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

There's another problem, too: the live action show is listed as an OVA, which is impossible since it's live action. How do we deal with direct-to-video live action releases? ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Create an infobox for V-Cinema.--Nohansen (talk) 05:19, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

It might be useful to create another infobox for live action straight to video releases for the animanga infobox. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:00, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it seemed the closest box for what we had available at the time. Feel free to change though :) -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 13:38, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Why not just add a live-action switch to the OVA box? —Dinoguy1000 17:43, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

That would work, too. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 18:45, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

That seems like a nice clean way of doing it, rather than adding to our long list of boxes :) -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 19:52, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

All right, I'll add a switch in a second; if there's a category or something like that that this should auto-categorize articles into, please point it out for me. —Dinoguy1000 20:18, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

 Done[11]. I set it up to change the title link to V-Cinema, but I'm not sure that's the best possible linktext... any suggestions? Also, note that it currently still sorts articles to Category:Anime OVAs. —Dinoguy1000 20:24, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Since the OVA infobox already has a switch for ONA, I think a separate infobox is better... The same way we have a separate one for animated TV series (Template:Infobox animanga/Anime) and another one for live-action TV series (Template:Infobox animanga/Drama).--Nohansen (talk) 02:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

A different method would be to follow Template:Infobox animanga/Movie... Rename Template:Infobox animanga/OVA to Template:Infobox animanga/Video with a switch for animated (OVAs) and live-action (V-Cinema) projects. Give original net animations a separate infobox.--Nohansen (talk) 02:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Template:Infobox animanga/ONA was created and a live-action switch was added to Template:Infobox animanga/Video. Template:Infobox animanga/OVA redirects to Template:Infobox animanga/Video and works just fine. Angel of Darkness now has a V-Cinema infobox and is (provisionally) categorized as Category:Direct-to-video films. I say "provisionally" because I don't know if a V-Cinema category will be created (will have to take that up with the Japanese cinema task force).--Nohansen (talk) 23:42, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Excel Saga

With the recent focus on improving articles and lists to FL, I think that previously demoted articles have lost out. One that has registered on my radar is Excel Saga, which was previously GA, and is now currently a C (meeting B criteria except for sources), but with 8 issue tags. The project discussion concerning the demotion can be found here and the review discussion is here.

I've made some very minor changes considering the work that needs doing (removing red links, reordering existing paraghraphs to fit MoS), and there is no "quick fix", but I'd really like to see this article improve to the point where we are building on it rather then fixing it. Dandy Sephy (talk) 13:20, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

AFD backlog

There are currently 21 articles up for AFD that needs the project's attention. Many of the AFDs have few to any comments on them and needs additional comments before a consensus is formed. --Farix (Talk) 20:20, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Reborn! seasons

In Talk:List of Reborn! episodes#Season split there is discussion to separate the article in sublists but there is a problem with the DVDs to divide them since a DVD season is just made of 8 episodes. Discussion are welcome. Regards.Tintor2 (talk) 00:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Re: New cat

Do we really need a Category:Summer anime and manga (or other currently-uncreated seasonal categories)?--十八 02:24, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I can't think of any valid reason to have such a category at all. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 02:38, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

It's currently at CfD for a rename discussion. --Farix (Talk) 03:04, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Gundam cleanup

The cleanup of the Gundam articles is long overdue. I've started with the articles related to Mobile Fighter G Gundam. For one, their isn't as many of them to sort through as with other series. Second, it doesn't appear to have as many fans "defending" them from cleanup and merger. I've merged most of the mobile suits into List of Mobile Fighter G Gundam mobile suits except for two, the Shining Gundam and God Gundam. I've also when through and tagged all of the character articles for merger. If anyone likes to help or rewrite some of the descriptions, then they are more then welcome. --Farix (Talk) 00:02, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

With around only ten characters that need to have descriptions, they should fit within a section in the main article. The different Gundam should be able to fit under their descriptions or within an appropriate section depending on their relevance also. TTN (talk) 00:50, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I have to disagree, there are more then ten characters that play significant roles in the story. And even with ten characters, that's way too many to merge into the main article. There are also several mobile suits that don't fit under a particular character to be merged into the character list, such as those of the Dark Army.—Preceding unsigned comment added by TheFarix (talk • contribs) 20:04, October 26, 2008

Which characters besides the five main characters, Schwarz, Rain, Allenby, Master Asia, and Kyoji need to be mentioned in detail? The support characters can briefly be mentioned under the main characters, other Gundam users appear too briefly to really matter outside of the episode list, and characters like Yunfat and Ishikawa don't really need to be mentioned outside of the plot summary. As long as the descriptions are devoid of unnecessary plot details, as they should be, the list should be an appropriate size. Most of the Gundam details are completely unnecessary, so they really don't need to be listed in much detail as in that list. Only the ones important to the plot should have any details. TTN (talk) 01:22, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Wong and Ishikawa are the prime antagonists for most of the series, so they certainly merit being mentioned. Gentle Chapman and Michelo Chariot are also recurring enemies who played a fairly significant role in the series. Putting all the characters on the main series article would simply bloat it.Kuwabaratheman (talk) 01:30, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with Farix and Kuwabaratheman here. There is too much character information to put into the main article, and in cases such as this it is perfectly acceptable and correct to create a character list article. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:56, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Other then the main characters, all of the rest have been merged. I think we can allow the main character articles time to demonstrate their notability. So, which series should I work on next? --Farix (Talk) 18:50, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Can I get someone to review and weight in on what is going on at {{Infobox Mobile Suit}}? --Farix (Talk) 12:29, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Question on layout style

I am working on cleaning up the layout style for Popotan to have it conform better with general layout guidelines. However I'm at an impass on how to do it. Normally one puts the first medium, in this case the visual novel, in the lead. However, the anime is the only item released in English, though it is based off the visual novel. The visual novel still notable though. Further complicating things is that the plot of both series differ wildly with only some key characters remaining the same in both, though even of those that remain some of the relatioships change. Thus because all the other anime series based off of games I've looked only one kind of follows this, Tsukihime which split the visual novel from the anime, though there is also an unofficial translation of the visual novel. So basically i'm asking what is a good way to redesign the page and should the anime be split off into its own page?Jinnai (talk) 22:03, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not the best person to ask, but I would say that if the plot differs so greatly between the two media, they may be better off in separate articles (someone else will probably come along and confirm this if I got it right). Other than that, the fact that a series (or a specific adaptation of a series) has not been licensed for an English-language release (as is the case with almost every anime/manga franchise in existance anyway) shouldn't have any bearing on the overall structure and focus of the article - it still needs to conform to our MoS. —Dinoguy1000 22:31, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I'll wait and see, but WP:MoS is guideline, not policy, so there is some room for flexibility.Jinnai (talk) 23:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

WP:MOS-AM is not the same as WP:MOS. And yes, its a guideline, but one that you should follow without a truly compelling reason not to. For Popotan, it sounds as if the anime and visual novel are distinct enough to warrant separate articles, but like Dinoguy1000 I'm going to defer to someone else familiar with both series. Also, keep in mind that if they are split, notability will have to be established within both articles. If one or the other can't establish notability, then it would be better to keep them together. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 00:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

While I think establishing notability for both should be easy, if somehow no one can, how would a setup be done in such a situation where the plots of both the anime and game differ so widely? EDIT: I believe if such were the case, I could probably not follow WP:MOS-AM as well as most articles.Jinnai (talk) 01:21, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

If its split, I'd say look at Air (visual novel) as a guide for that article, as it is currently a GA article. For the anime article, it can follow the MOS-AM, it just won't have separate media sections adn the like unless there is also a manga or other media that was based on the anime (rather than the game). Though, if these are the only two media for the series, the differences could be summarized relatively easily within a singular article as well. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 02:42, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

There is a very short manga series and a drama CD. I do not know much about them at this time. EDIT: The 2 items I thought were drama CDs are special DVD with interviews (not sure if character interviews or VA interviews). The other looks to be something based on the TV series, dialogue or something. There is also a magazine and the usual CDs and artbooks.Jinnai (talk) 10:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

If the CDs/artbooks are based on the anime, then there is your media section :) -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 14:59, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Gundam navboxes

I've started a discussion about rewriting the various Gundam navboxes over on the Gundam project, I'd really appreciate any comments anyone here might have on the matter. —Dinoguy1000 18:54, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

DB Char Merges, Revisit

As per the closures in September, the issue of whether Frieza and Master Roshi should be merged into the character list is now being revisited. Your views would be welcomed. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 18:00, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Ranma ½ characters

I was going to start a discussion on the page itself, but I wanted a project opinion first as The amount of characters covered on various pages for this show is ridiculous.

List of Ranma ½ minor characters, List of minor Ranma ½ characters (anime) and List of minor Ranma ½ characters (manga) are completely unnecessary. Next to None of the characters covered in those lists plays much more then bit-roles, and have no in-universe or real world notability (in this case I'd not use furinkan as evidence of notability). I have difficulty believing they would pass a AfD nomination. I'm only halfway through season 4 at the moment, but the characters that are known to me on those pages are mostly "pointless" (a few exceptions are there). While these characters are minor, there are far more notable 'minor" characters that are being assumed to be "major" characters. Basically the "qualification" for minor characters is wrong.

Additionally then character list on the main article is obscenely long. The main article should not be listing 21 characters. With the exception of Ranma, Akane, Genma, Soun, Ryoga, Happosai, most, if not all of them could easily be "demoted" to a seperate article. For example, blanking List of Ranma ½ minor characters and moving them to there. Currently the character list is half the article size at a rough guess

On top of that, there are ridiculous over long, unsourced articles for many of the more notable characters. While Shampoo (Ranma ½) is a notable character, her article reads like it was taken straight from a fansite (and probably was). Also her page is rated a B from two years ago. I really doubt that rating is valid now

I'm after feedback from the project, but my wish is to:

• Nominate List of minor Ranma ½ characters (anime) and List of minor Ranma ½ characters (manga) for AfD,
• Take the few salvageable characters in List of Ranma ½ minor characters and create a new article List of Ranma ½ characters, then AfD List of Ranma ½ minor characters
• Copy the character list from Ranma ½ to List of Ranma ½ characters
• Cut down the list on Ranma ½ to a suitable length of only the most important characters (basically the list above)

• After the above is done, look into the separate character articles

Basically, I think people have turned wikipedia into a ranma fan site even though I believe there is a actual ranma wiki. There are potential copyright violations inside these massive character articles, and the articles simply don't seem to meet basic requirements for inclusion or article quality. However due to the size and type of the articles and relative importance of the show, I'm not willing to dive in and start changing everything without discussion and consensus. Also while it originally seemed sensible to me to discuss this on the article page, I think the project needs to take an active role here to ensure these pages meet the correct standards (even if its only to start or C class) and changes aren't dictated or undone purely by the ranma fanboys. I'm currently watching the show (and editing the episode lists) so I'm in a good position to take an active role if others aren't so familiar Dandy Sephy (talk) 06:33, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Yikes, that certainly is a mess. While I like Ranma, I'm far from an expert on it, so I haven't ever bothered checking out the pages to improve them. There needs to be definite changes made there, though. At the very least, the three minor character pages should be merged together, and cut down somewhat. Not all of those characters should be cut, but a good deal should. And there definitely needs to be a shortening of the list on the main page.

I would advocate splitting the main page section off to List of Ranma ½ characters, while leaving behind descriptions for a few characters on the main page (Ranma, Akane, Ryoga, maybe a couple of others), and then merging all three minor character lists into one. That would be a good start to getting those pages up to par.kuwabaratheman (talk) 06:43, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Aye, if I wasn't actively editing pages within the franchise I'd not have noticed either. I agree not everyone is the minor lists needs to be cut, but it's really difficult to find more then one or two that are notable in any way although as noted I'm only halfway through the anime. Dandy Sephy (talk) 06:49, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd be more than happy to help out with a chapter list for the series, but the fact that the English version has fewer volumes than the Japanese version has been scaring me of for at least half a year. I have had thoughts on a version of {{Graphic novel list}} to handle this type of thing, but I just haven't acted on it yet. Other than that, You're probably going to be sorely disappointed and at least a tad peeved that I don't really have any intention of helping out with the character articles and lists - they've never been an area of interest for me (editing-wise), and frankly, I hate the very idea of working on them. —Dinoguy1000 08:06, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I'll leave it until the weekend and if theres been no further input, I'll look into sandboxing a new character list using the existing pages, and a shorter list for the main article. Dinoguy, it's not a problem if you don't want to involve yourself in the actual editing of the pages, I'm happy to do the "list" ones myself (although I'm wary of not including characters who are notable later on in the show, so any help 'ticking off" notable ones would be good), I'm just looking for project feedback on bringing some sense of order to things. I think tackling the chapters is a much harder task due to the reasons you give, so I'm happy to leave that to you *lets out an evil laugh* Dandy Sephy (talk) 04:14, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I would've already tried something with the chapter list if I had access to the Japanese tankōbon, to see how the chapters actually line up (cue anyone else who owns or has access to them). As for the main characters, I've never had the opportunity to watch the anime, and it's been awhile since I read the manga... and I've never exactly been good at separating main and secondary characters anyways. =P —Dinoguy1000 17:22, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Nausicaä merge

I have made a suggestion that Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind and Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind (manga) be merged back into a single article that better reflects that the manga is the primary work from which the film is adapted, and to more thoroughly cover the entire work than the two rather poor separate articles do. Thoughts appreciated at Talk:Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind#Merge Film and Manga. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 07:11, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Animated film awards

I was wondering whether some of the Annie Awards would fall under our scope. The Annie Award for Best Animated Feature has a couple anime nominated for it, and the other Annie Awards have anime nominations as well. Anime News Network comments occasionally on them (notably by lamenting the lack of anime that are nominated or win awards), so would placing the project banner on these be appropriate? I normally wouldn't suggest this for film awards that happen to have anime nominated, but these awards are animation-centric. — sephiroth bcr ^(converse) 08:29, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

One Piece episode list

There is currently a discussion at Talk:List of One Piece episodes#FUNimation Seasons regarding the need to split List of One Piece episodes into season articles, and whether we should wait for the Funi season splits to be known or go ahead and split on the Japanese seasons then change as the Funi ones are announced. Additional input would be helpful as its currently just two experienced, and one new editor in the discussion. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 16:29, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

names with special characters inside an article

I am wondering how we deal with names of people who use alias (and have been published under them) with special characters. This does not apply to article titles or subtopics which fall under naming convention rules for special reasons, ie indexing. The specific case at hand is with Poyoyon♡Rock, refering what he actually calls himself when publishing certain titles. Other uses in an article I usually remove the ♡ symbol.Jinnai (talk) 18:59, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with including such pseudonyms in the article as long as they can be verified. The article title shouldn't have such characters in it, but having them in the article body is fine. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 23:24, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Dragon Ball: Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!

There is some edit warring going on at this article regarding character names and the like, and whether Jumpland's names are more authoritative than the Toei character sheets. See Talk:Dragon Ball: Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!#Official names. There is also a second discussion as to whether the article should be renamed at Talk:Dragon Ball: Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!#Moving the article?, again wondering if the Jumpland English name is "official" enough to use until Funimation releases their dub. Both could use some additional opinions. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 21:20, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure why the English title used by Jumpland (Shūeisha) wouldn't be "official enough". It's definitely more official than the fan-translation we're currently using, anyway. Erigu (talk) 22:06, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Star Ocean: The Second Story

Per my own remarks on Tales of the Abyss above, I have started a discussion about merging Star Ocean: The Second Story (manga) into its video game article. The discussion is available at Talk:Star Ocean: The Second Story#Merge and project input would be appreciated. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 06:26, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Tales of the Abyss anime

Hey, After watching it, I felt like creating a wiki page for Tales of the Abyss: The Animation, which didn't exist until I went to work on it. I've been at it alone for a minute. I could use some help with it as I'm a new user to the whole wikipedia thing.

I've contributed to other things before, such as the page of Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World, I just recently became a member is all. Anyway, whoever wants to pitch in, go right on ahead.DarkenedSkye (talk) 05:17, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

As a note, considering Tales of the Abyss's anime is not significantly different from its game, that new article has been redirected back to the game page. At most, it needs a standard episode list, but not a full article. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 05:37, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

As a note, a discussion regarding whether the anime should have a separate article is now occurring at Talk:Tales of the Abyss#Okay, about the anime. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 07:07, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

The anime adaptation section is a bit lacking though, especially considering the rest of the article.Jinnai (talk) 19:40, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I agree there, but the created article didn't really add anything, just a summary of the first episode. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 19:42, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

One Piece merge discussion

Hello, we are currently conducting a merge discussion (here) about trimming down and merging the List of minor One Piece characters into the main character list. Any extra input in discussion would be much appreciated. Thanks! --Kraftlos (talk) 06:17, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Absorb WP:GUNDAM as work group?

Given that it is a series specific WikiProject and that most of its participants are also participants of this WikiProject, what are everyone else's thoughts on absorbing WP:GUNDAM into WP:ANIME as work group? --Farix (Talk) 15:43, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Strongly support and something I think should have been done awhile back. I think we should also look at doing the same with WP:SM. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 15:53, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

It's only a minor semantic difference. Absorb them if they want to be absorbed, leave 'em alone if they don't. --Masamage ♫ 16:29, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Neutral: I am with Masamage on this one. G.A.S^talk 16:52, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

The question is "are they following our practices"? If they are already working on articles with a tendency to use our MoS and other methods then I don't see the difference being much. If they are doing stuff differently to us, then it would be of more benefit. Dandy Sephy (talk) 17:14, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd say do it... and the same with WP:SM, per Collectonian. I don't see there being any resistance from the individual projects, they may even welcome us assuming some of the administrative tasks for them. —Dinoguy1000 18:24, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

The thing is, WP:SM at least already does work pretty closely with the project. Really, it comes down to only a difference in the name. Personally I like the name, and it has historical pleasantness for the participants, and most importantly I'd rather not spend doing a lot of clerical work--changing the name everywhere--when we could be doing things that are actual improvements. So if an already-cooperative WikiProject wants to become a task force, I say let 'em. If not, I say don't waste the time. --Masamage ♫ 18:55, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd say absorb it if no one opposes in a reasonable time frame. Gundam series is the largest anime franchise in Japan, (50 billion dollar annual income) yet the western world seems to take much less notice of it and not a lot of editors that actually with time are doing much in that project. I personally is quite disappointed with TTN's actions, and have no time to do much, if sources are needed, ask me, I personally got quite some reputation in the Chinese Gundam fan base, other than that, everything seems to be so pointless and all asian fictional items are simply ignored and dubbed to have no notability in any sense by the ignorant anyway. MythSearcher^talk 14:28, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that makes sense. If not enough attention is being paid by project members to even comment on the issue, it is probably better as a TF. --Masamage ♫ 15:40, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I was going to mention the general lack of activity over at WP:GUNDAM as one of the reasons to absorb the group as a work group, but I decided against it. I have no delusions that absorbing them as a work group will mean an increase in activity. But they have no article assessment, no cleanup, no peer review. What they do have is a crude deletion sorting system, a short TODO list, and an outdated directory of some of the Gundam-related categories and lists. --Farix (Talk) 16:04, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Neutral. I think if the participants of that project are fine with it, then it can be changed to a task force. Otherwise, leave things as they are. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 15:20, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Support. I'm not a project member, but I do enough editing on Gundam articles as it is to know that much of them are in dire need of greater review and editing. WP:Gundam hasn't got very many active editors, and whatever we can do to get more bodies in the business of making articles better is a worthwhile cause. MalikCarr (talk) 08:40, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Support I'm a former project member. I don't see any reason not to absorb it. Centralization and more eyes is always a good thing. Maybe if people were watching, we'd have less drama as well. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 08:42, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Neutral. Support on two conditions: If they want to become a work group. And if this project's editors, doing most of the administrative work, are willing to take them in. -- Goodraise (talk) 09:10, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I believe we are already doing all of the admin, as all of the WP:GUNDAM articles are under a shared scope with WP:ANIME. Regards, G.A.S^talk 13:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Neutral I'm not sure how much good it would do. We wouldn't get any more people who are interested in/have knowledge of UC Gundam stuff than we do now, most likely. Jtrainor (talk) 18:27, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

List of Episode formatting

I'm working on Sailor Moon where there are several versions and this causes problems... but I also noticed that the episode list formatting is not 100% consistent. So I'd like to request somewhat of a template to help out the projects so that everything can be in line. It doesn't have to be a "template" as in must make one, but something like a mini guide for how to deal with episode listings. List_of_Sailor_Moon_episodes_(season_1)

Currently has a problem. That is, the secondary title is actually a sub title by ADV, however, this doesn't match the translation 100% for what the Japanese company themselves most likely would use. For example, the title translates as Pretty Sailor Solider Sailor Moon, where "senshi" translates into "soldier" however the box set translates it as "warrior" causing a problem there. In addition there is the dub title, but not all of the episodes were dubbed. Technically the dub came before the sub, but the Japanese before the dub...

As the table is now, it is confusing as to which is which... Which is the dub title that translates the romaji? And what is the subtitle version...

A great number of episodes were deleted, as they were in Dragonball Z, which has similar issues. (except for the separate subbing company). Pokemon also tried to deal with this issue, and even though they aren't rated yet, I think you can still see the issue. What do you do when there is no English title?

I tried to solve it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hitsuji_Kinno/Sailor_Moon_episode_list/

But you can see the ongoing issues... The "N/A" doesn't look pretty repeated, even though this table is somewhat functional.

I'd like to open it up to the parent project to come up with an episode list format that will work for deleted English episodes. With multiple formats, especially since the subtitle versions have a nasty habit of coming second and having a different title from the sub. Does anyone have ideas on how to format the tables so they don't look like a mess, but are easy to read even with deletions/additions to the table? If there are any, I'd like to have somewhat of a stable guide for this so that offspring projects from AMP can use said table and it'll be easier for us to make it featured status.

JP Episode Number EN Episode Number Dub title Sub title Translated title Romaji title Japanese title Japanese Air date English Air date Description

These are the fields I can think of. If anyone has any more, please add them to the list. The idea is to make it intuitive to read.

Thank you--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 23:30, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Putting all the English titles into the RTitle field would work, right? All the other pieces of information can be fit into the existing fields. How to format the RTitle field... well, that's something for discussion. —tan³ tx 00:44, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, aren't we not supposed to give our own translations when a professional company has already done so for an English market? —tan³ tx 00:46, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Um, Hitsuji Kinno, it would really have been appropriate for you to mention the reason you are asking is that your suggestion is being disputed elsewhere. Initially at the Sailor Moon ep list talk page, and this is currently being discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sailor Moon#List of Sailor Moon Episodes. I disagreed with this idea as the list's current format is valid and fully consistent and can already be handled with our episode template's current set up. Having another English title field is completely unnecessary. The SM episode list follows the format used in other series that has both a sub and dub English title, including List of Dragon Ball episodes and List of Tokyo Mew Mew episodes. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 02:12, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

There is a point to the lack of consistency. See List of One Piece episodes, which lists the dub name, sub name and romanji name, List of Zatch Bell! episodes which has the dub name and romanji but no sub, and List of Yu-Gi-Oh! media which doesn't list romanji at all. Personally, I think listing a sub name qualifies as original research unless the original company that made the anime officially stands by it (which I don't think is the case for One Piece or Sailor Moon), and speculating on what the company would think is official is very definitely OR. (Although for the record, the official translation of Bishōjo Senshi Sērā Mūn is actually "Pretty Soldier Sailor Moon". There is no extra "Sailor".) JuJube (talk) 02:29, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Alas, none of those have actually been cleaned up by the project of late, beyond some basic stuff on the One Piece list. An a subtitle name is not original research, as we are talking about the official subtitle name, not some created one or fantranslation. Adding an additional "correct" translation, which it what I believe is being suggested as an option above, would be OR. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 02:40, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

An additional issue is that I believe ADV's subs are not something that Toei approved on. Pioneer's for S/SuperS may be, and there's nothing official for Stars at all. JuJube (talk) 02:52, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter of Toei approved them or not. They were used on the official English releases, that makes them the official titles. Only Stars has no official English title. All the rest have 2- the dub, and what was used for the uncut releases from Pioneer and ADV.-- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 02:54, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see. JuJube (talk) 03:07, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that the One Piece ep list doesn't have any sub names, it just has the 4Kids and FUNi dub names. —Dinoguy1000 17:23, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm guessing (hoping) the Funi dub and sub names are the same? -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 17:27, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

No idea, I've only seen some of their dubbed episodes, back when CN was still airing One Piece, and haven't even seen any DVDs at the area Wal-Marts (not that I'd be able to buy them anyway... -_-;; ) —Dinoguy1000 18:45, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Either way there is a larger formatting issue... any proposals on the floor? Oh and translations aren't OR according to the MOS. They are acceptable. But beyond that, I think it would be easier if we made it a template. 'cause right now it's hard to read said Sailor Moon episode table. And it's hard for the other projects and pages to know how to format their table. So having one table and format to follow will make it easier overall.--Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 15:33, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I'd be fine with just getting rid of one of the possible titles. I'm not sure if it's really necessary to have the Japanese title written twice (once in each writing system). Failing that, there's always Aux parameters. -- Ned Scott 04:02, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Chapter List Format

User:Goodraise has proposed a new way of formatting the chapter lists for the One Piece list, which he feels is a better format and, if successful here, would like to see applied to other lists. I disagree with the change and the idea. As few other editors edit this particular list, and it could potentially have wider reaching implications, additional project input would be appreciated at Talk:List of One Piece chapters#Numbering of chapters within the volumes. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 16:15, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Case Closed character merges

There are two discussions now on going regarding the merging of various individual Case Closed character articles to either List of Case Closed characters or Black Organization (Case Closed). Please considering stopping by and offering your views at Talk:List of Case Closed characters#Character Merges (8 characters) and Talk:Black Organization (Case Closed)#Character Merges (3 characters). Thanks. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 04:05, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

WP:EL discussion: When should we link to Wikia?

There is a debate over whether one should link to the Gants Wikia at the Gantz page. Please see Wikipedia_talk:External_links#When_is_linking_to_a_Wikia_acceptable.3F WhisperToMe (talk) 09:00, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

List of Reborn! chapters

Much copy-edit and arrangements has been done since the peer review, which is still open. Could anybody add other comments such as about copy-edit.Tintor2 (talk) 16:49, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

One Piece: more merges

Hi, I nominated several articles to be merged into List of One Piece characters. I am announcing this here because I expect this to become very controversial. Also, due to the large fanbase, in case the merge is done, I expect much resistance afterwards. That's why I hope for a strong consensus. Please consider participating in the discussion. Thanks. -- Goodraise (talk) 06:38, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Edit war in Mukuro Rokudo

User Serpent132 has been editing the Mukuro Rokudo article, trimming the sections to minimun as it was a FAC. More important, he has been removing information from the lead mentioning it was repeated in other sections. I tried talking to him on his talk page sending info about deletion and reverting edits mentioning WP: Lead and other stuff. However, he has not stopped doing that and in this state is impossible for the article to be GA (is currently a GAC). Im requesting help here because I may also require to be blocked with these edits. Thanks.Tintor2 (talk) 22:18, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, looks like a vandal to me. Report it at WP:ANI perhaps? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 23:12, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Done.Tintor2 (talk) 23:52, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I took a look, but it doesn't look like vandalism to me. See WP:VANDAL#NOT. My recommendation is to try a little harder to engage in some good faith communication. --Elonka 01:16, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Discussion has started in Talk:Mukuro Rokudo#Edit-warring. Please discuss.Tintor2 (talk) 02:15, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

User Serpent132 has not responded. Instead, he keeps reverting the edits and has been used this anon account to keep reverting and remove the warning from his talk page. It does not seem it is still good faith.Tintor2 (talk) 18:21, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

He has been given a final 3RR warning. Any further reverts can be grounds for a block. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 19:36, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

...and Elonka has now blocked him for 24 hours due to his lack of response and failure to heed the large number of warnings placed on his talk page. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 00:40, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

But shouldnt the version of the article be reverted to the last version by Darkangel?Tintor2 (talk) 00:45, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's a good idea to continue the revert war on in-universe information. --Farix (Talk) 01:41, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Marmalade Boy chapters

The Marmalade Boy chapter list FLC is not seeing much activity at all. I'd really appreciate getting some additional comments, good or bad. Thanks. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 17:15, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

By the way, the same goes for Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Bleach episodes (season 6). Regards.Tintor2 (talk) 17:17, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

CfD for renaming Category:Lists of anime television series episodes

I started a CfD discussion to rename Category:Lists of anime television series episodes to Category:Lists of anime episodes at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2008 November 4#Category:Lists of anime television series episodes, in response to an older discussion here. Everyone is invited to comment. —Dinoguy1000 19:58, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

...and the discussion was closed as rename (and it looks like Cydebot already got everything moved, too). W00t! —Dinoguy1000 18:37, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Removing Azumanga Daioh dojin games

I posted this a couple days ago, but because of the article's importance wanted to post it here. Did either of those games become notable enough to pass WP:N for general non-inclusion of fan-related content; or is the nature of the such items of for Azumanga Diaoh important enough that even if indivisually they didn't achieve WP:N status as as useage for examples they would? As far as I can tell, I can't see any reason they would, but maybe someone here knows something I don't.Jinnai (talk) 19:39, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Keep in mind that WP:N does not regulate the content of an article, but only whether the article as a whole is notable enough to exist. What's included in the article should be determined by editorial consensus as to what's important to the understanding of the subject.

That said, about a year ago, I asked more or less the same question, about the same article -- given that dojin games are essentially a form of fan fiction, should they be mentioned. I was told that doujin games, if verifiable, are both a) somewhat more important than fanfic and b) contribute to understanding fan response to the subject. I haven't found the thread in the archives yet, though (man we're a chattery bunch) though, and it may be that thoughts on the subject have changed. —Quasirandom (talk) 20:28, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Well first off, only one of those 2 has a source. I would also like to see that because I can't see how a fan game would do more than fan fiction because while the medium is different, the essence of origin is the same: they are both created by fans who, are not the original creators and thus imposing their own ideas onto the content in a similar manner, just another medium of exchange. We also do not use fansubs or in general, fan translations, except in possibly the case of names and titles, which arguably could constitute a higher level of understanding.

Furthermore, to be honest, you could go to someplace like dlsite or the like and be able to list a load of fan games (mostly hentai, but wikipedia is uncensored), so they could all be viewed as justifiable inclusions of work that are verifiable.Jinnai (talk) 21:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Discussion on Common Knowledge

I am posting it here after debates in Talk:List_of_One_Piece_characters. As the former article nor WP:fict doesn't really deal with stuff easily verifable to someone who can see something like a billboard of an item or poster, etc, which could visually represent the item in question, it probably will have ramifications for this project either way.Jinnai (talk) 18:34, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

E's Otherwise article name

Before starting some much needed work on this article, I've started a discussion regarding its name, as the manga was released simply as E'S. Views on my suggestion of moving the article would be appreciated at Talk:E's Otherwise#E'S versus E's versus E's Otherwise -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 22:05, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

List of manga series by volume count

In response to a discussion on List of anime series by episode count, I went ahead and started List of manga series by volume count with the current cutoff at 35 volumes, which can always be adjusted later. I think I've gotten most of the very longest manga series, but would appreciate help filling in the gaps - especially with regards to chapter counts and the number of pages per volume (I imagine it should be ~220 pages per volume for pretty much every series). In addition, I'm considering listing [light] novels, similar to how the anime series list contains OVAs. Everyone is invited to comment over on the anime list's talk page, in order to keep the discussion in one place, or to add series they're aware of. —Dinoguy1000 21:45, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not really sure pages per volume is a useful column to have, particularly as it can change between volumes, sometimes dramatically. It isn't always consistent. Also not sure how useful I'd call either list, or how accurate the titles really seem to be, but added Rave Master. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 21:55, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, I was considering either pages per volume or chapters per volume, but they both have basically the same problem with variability. The only reason I considered either, though, was because the anime list has a column for episode length in minutes - if the page count column gets removed, the minute count one probably should as well. As for usefulness, it was established in previous discussions (somewhere in our archives IIRC) that there is real interest in the longest series, and something like this, with clearly-defined inclusion criteria, is far better than some all-inclusive List of manga or anime. And for the titles, well, no comment. ;) —Dinoguy1000 22:13, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Well...if nothing else, we now see we have a lot of series with no chapter lists :-P (and some of the longest series out there have hideous articles...ewww...). Added a few more to the list :) -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 22:34, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Yep, it adds a new dimension to our cleanup efforts IMO. ^_^ BTW, I'm trying to remember the title of another timetravel manga like Red River, same basic premise (modern girl gets zapped back to ancient Mesopotamia), but it's still ongoing IIRC... and longer than Red River is. I think it's by a female mangaka who's pretty big in Japan, but largely unheard of elsewhere, if that helps at all. Any ideas? —Dinoguy1000 22:48, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Crest of the Royal Family. —Quasirandom (talk) 02:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Oho, that's it! Thanks Quasi! ^_^ —Dinoguy1000 18:40, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

BTW, check out also Inochi no Utsuwa by Kimiko Uehara, which alas we don't have an article on. —Quasirandom (talk) 17:49, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Discussion to rename List of licensed manga in English

There's currently a discussion to rename List of licensed manga in English to something that sounds slightly less stupid better. (^_^;) Comments are welcome at Talk:List of licensed manga in English#Article name. —Dinoguy1000 23:10, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh My Goddess! needing project love

This series could really use some concentrated attention from the project. Its main article is currently being worked on now that the merges proposed back in July have been agreed to (except the film article). However, many of its sub articles, such as its episode and chapter lists are in really bad shape. All three are in massive need of referencing help as well. A quick look at Template:Oh My Goddess shows that the character articles are still in bad shape and likely still have some merging to List of Oh My Goddess! characters left to do. The template itself also needs some serious clean up. And, for a little extra fun, the list names are inconsistent, with some using Oh My Goddess and some using Oh My Goddess!. :-P Anyone want to join the insanity/take on a challenge? Oh, and that OMG external link "template" is back up for TfD again if anyone wants to offer their views. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 09:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I couldn't take it anymore, so I've gone through and done a massive cleanup of the episode list[12] taking it from this to this (vast visual improvement, I hope). I suspect someone will pitch a fit cause I switched from that personal {{List of Anime Episodes TV}} to the standard {{Japanese episode list}} but I saw no compelling reason to keep the bulkier template there, and the new version has a standard format for all of the ep lists. The lead still needs a rewrite, it needs much more referencing, and it needs an image, but I hope that's a start to make it less daunting :) -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 16:42, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll have a look at the template in a minute (surprise surprise ;) ) and see what I can do for it. As for the chapter list... Well, let's just leave that discussion for a bit later, shall we? —Dinoguy1000 19:33, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

...and done with it. How's it look now? —Dinoguy1000 19:48, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Already world's better! Thanks :D -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 19:52, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Collectonian, have you checked out your books for potential references for OMG? It'd make it easier to know how to trim if there's a referencing effort first. --Malkinann (talk) 02:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I know Anime Explosion! has some, but haven't looked at the depth of content yet. Trying to get the merges and structural clean ups done first :) -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 02:53, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

If there's a referencing effort first, though, it might help demonstrate the individual notability of Urd, Skuld and K1 so they can get their own articles. One thing I've noticed is that when character articles get merged to lists, out of universe information seems to get left by the wayside - in List of Rose of Versailles characters, for example, none of the anime voice actors are listed, although they were all in the redirected articles. --Malkinann (talk) 03:14, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I'm not even touching the characters right now (if I were, though, I do keep out of universe info when I merge :P), I was just mentioning it as something to possibly look at (and only with individual discussion). The merging right now is all of the individual articles for the manga, anime, OVA, etc into a singular article (sans the film). I know I pulled out info on Belldandy from the references I have on hand for her article, but don't remember off hand if there was info on the others there. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 03:36, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Time Bokan needs major work

I need real assistance with the Time Bokan series I have created this template what is anyone else's opinion.

Dwanyewest (talk) 23:53, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

It looks good, though I don't really like the red links ;-) I'd focus on the core articles rather than planning to start new articles. Template looks fine. --Kraftlos (talk) 10:34, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Yep, redlinks in animanga navboxes (as well as section links and redirects) are generally a no-no. Think of the navbox as documenting what articles on a given subject Wikipedia already has, it makes creating and maintaining them much easier. ;) —Dinoguy1000 18:25, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

If anyone has any additional info on any of the shows it would be most appreciative.

Dwanyewest (talk) 16:22, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Infobox comics creator

There's an ongoing merge discussion on Template talk:Infobox comics creator#Merge into Infobox Person. The proposal seems to insinuate that merging the comics creator infobox template with the person infobox will somehow simply things; I don't see how that's possible. More input in the discussion would be appreciated, it appears to have been open since August. --Kraftlos (talk) 10:32, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Given the closeness of the two and that I prefer {{Infobox Person}} anyways, it sound like a reasonable proposal. And with just 1,000 transclusions, it's a simple matter to covert over. --Farix (Talk) 13:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

It's reasonable, but in my opinion unnecessary and/or unhelpful. --Kraftlos (talk) 04:47, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Mass replacement of words

I was wondering if we have a bot that will replace an arbitrary word with another word in an article or a set of articles? Basically, I'm looking for something that lets me fix character name spellings. The article I have in mind is List of kingdoms in Twelve Kingdoms - I already changed Youko to the official Yoko once, but it got partially reverted. Unfortunately, at the time the MOS still said to use the most popular name so I didn't do anything about it. Now edits have been made making it impossible to revert the names back to what I had without loosing data. So basically, no matter route I take it will be a lot of work. If there isn't a bot like that out there, could anyone tell me the basics to building one myself? I banged my head over the Java bot API awhile back, but I couldn't figure out how to do anything really. --Eruhildo (talk) 04:01, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

You could just copy the article's content into Word or some equivalent, go to Replace in the Edit tab, and choose what words you want to change. It'll take you all but 30 seconds.--十八 05:44, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I basically do what Juhachi suggestioned. I either copy/paste to Notepad for simple stuff, or to Dreamweaver if I need to run regexs. You could use JavaScript to make your own add on to your monobook.js, maybe study some of the other replacement scripts to study the basics (such as lightmouse's date replacement scripts), but definitely TEST lots before using on a real article. Personally, though, I think just copy/replace would be easier. One time thing, then just smack the anon's putting back the wrong spellings. :P -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 05:50, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Are you trying to change the names from the most popular to the offical names or vice versa? Because it should be the most popular/commonly used name. (haven't looked at the article, just thought I'd mention this). --Kraftlos (talk) 12:14, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Is there a spelling difference between the official translations in the anime and the novels? There have been cases where it has been successfully argued that the adaption's naming choices are more popular than the original work, and Wikipedia should use those names, but most popular does not ever mean names a few dedicated fans might prefer over the official translations. Doceirias (talk) 14:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Both official translations use "Yoko", or at least that's how they spell it on their websites. Ah, scripts, didn't think of that one. Found the edit.regexReplace script over at WikiProject User scripts and it works great! The article's fixed now. Thanks for the help! --Eruhildo (talk) 21:43, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

wikiEd has a search and replace function, and IMO, it's useful for editing in general. Far easier to edit stuff when refs are in different colors, links are in different colors, and so on and such forth. — sephiroth bcr ^(converse) 21:48, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

CCS vs Tsubasa

We're having a lot of problems with people, especially IPs, trying to glut the CCS articles with Tsubasa information, thanks to all the crossover, alternative universe stuff. In particularly, there is a lengthy argument about the removal of a lot of Tsubasa stuff from Sakura Kinomoto, even though I have pointed out repeatedly that they have no sources for their claims, Clamp themselves do not back up those claims, and, the Tsubasa Sakura has her own article at Sakura (Tsubasa: Reservoir Chronicle). Anyone want to help out with the arguments here? Some are self fixing as the CCS character articles are merged to the list, but Sakura's will remain a standalone, so need to get things clear there. Current discussion at Talk:Sakura Kinomoto#Tsubasa information. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 20:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd say cut everything unless it's explicitly sourced, since talking about crossovers opens up all kinds of possibilities for OR and personal opinion. What we really need IMO is an article that talks about CLAMP's crossovers in general, but I have no idea if enough sourced information could be found to allow such an article to assert individual notability, or what it should be named, or how it would be structured, or linked to, etc etc... —Dinoguy1000 21:54, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. That's what I've been trying to do, but meeting with a lot of resistance. And now I have a headache as the latest arguer is a philosophy student and throwing out proofs and stuff *argh* :P -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 22:09, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I saw that... scary stuff, philosophy is. =P If I have time later, I may actually read the whole discussion and offer my own opinion on the matter, people seem to like/gravitate toward my commentary on this type of discussion for some reason. —Dinoguy1000 22:12, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

LOL, agreed! Maybe you can figure out what he's actually saying in his last bit, cause it no longer even get it. And its probably because you manage to make sound arguments calmly and in such a way that most folks don't get annoyed, unlike me :P-- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 02:31, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Bakugan Battle Brawlers

I would like someone to review Bakutrix (talk · contribs)'s contributions in relation to Bakugan Battle Brawlers. Yesterday, I've attempted to cleanup and reorganize the article to bring it in line with WP:MOS-AM in response to an AFD of a related article. Later Bakutrix removed the plot section placeholder and the voice actors from the character section, which I restored. He then reinsert what appears to be game guide information and removed the critical reception placeholder. Later, after this particular edit where he inserted what appears to be game guide data, I've asked him to explain what he was doing. But there has been no response so far. --Farix (Talk) 02:23, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I looked at his contributions starting from here. This edit might be bad faith, but I don't know the topic, so I can't judge it. This revision (removal of empty section) is typical for inexperienced users. I don't think it's a bad faith edit. And this edit (removal of voice actor information) could be attributed to a fan perspective, not valuing real-world information, coupled with a lack of understanding of Wikipedia's intention. The addition of game guide information is the last edit I reviewed. I also looked at his talk page. The only messages he's received so far have been negative. But all in all I can't see definite bad faith, rather an inexperienced user who needs to be treated nicely, to improve his overall edit quality. -- Goodraise (talk) 03:22, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I may have a battle on my hands with the game guide stuff. We probably need more eyes on the article until things settle down. It would be good if an editor familiar with the series and Wikipedia's policies takes a look at the article. Most importantly, determining which characters are the main characters and which are incidental or minor. I get the feeling that the character section is going to be a magnet for sneaking in game guide information. In fact, it already has. --Farix (Talk) 04:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

IP Vandal on Kodocha pages

71.243.223.66 continues to vandalize both the Kodocha page, as well as its talk page. I've been reverting his edits, but it's not stopping him at all, so I'm bringing this issue to the project's attention. User doesn't want to listen to reason, and has repeatedly deleted comments addressed at him on the talk page.kuwabaratheman (talk) 22:12, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The vandalism notice board is that way. --Farix (Talk) 22:26, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

He's back, though a little more constructive then last time. But he has taken to removing/altering part of a quote on Shugo Chara!, misrepresenting what Carlo Santos of ANN says about the manga in the process. --Farix (Talk) 18:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Wolf's Rain

TTN has suggested that List of Wolf's Rain characters be merged into Wolf's Rain. Please offer your views to the discussion at Talk:Wolf's Rain#Character list. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 04:06, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The discussion has been closed as "do not merge". ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 04:16, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

MAJOR HELP!!!

This article needs some MAJOR help. I came across it while looking at the black hole disambiguation page, and found some character called Black Hole. The point is it needs tons of work, and I and AnmaFinotera can't do it alone... so we need help. わwaらraうu Smile! 06:29, 20 November 2008 (UTC)moocowsrule

So, in other words, you'd like some assistance there? ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:33, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Pretty much, all-mighty-answerer-to-all-questions-in-the-universe. :P わwaらraうu Smile! 06:34, 20 November 2008 (UTC)moocowsrule

Oops, forgot to mention magical-all-mighty-answerer-to-all-questions-in-the-universe :P わwaらraうu Smile! 06:35, 20 November 2008 (UTC)moocowsrule

Yeah, Kinnikuman is some pretty bad shape. The main article gave me shudders. Its a big, confusing mess of lists, plot, trivia, OR, and ten ELs (including possibly a copyvio link). But the article only has one reference. Almost no info on the manga specifically, and barely any real-world info at all. It could really use a lot of clean up. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 06:46, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

And also the reference is in Japanese... わwaらraうu Smile! 06:51, 20 November 2008 (UTC)moocowsrule

Nothing wrong with that? Its RS. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 07:04, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with it, but it'd help a lot more if there were external links in English too. I mean this is an English wikipedia... わwaらraうu Smile! 01:40, 21 November 2008 (UTC)moocowsrule

Meant reference, not external link. わwaらraうu Smile! 01:40, 21 November 2008 (UTC)moocowsrule

Yes, but its an article on a primarily Japanese topic, so having Japanese references is perfectly fine and to be expected. A mix of Japanese and English is ideal, but for some things, Japanese will be most likely. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 02:04, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

If we're going to make it up to date with MoS-JP then we should at least have 1 ref in English. There should be something on ANN. I'll check there, but unfortunately (and extremely embarrassing) I have huge troubles with References. I can never get the correct coding in and always mess it up. --わwaらraうu Smile! 03:14, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I found a page on ANN about the anime and one about the manga. I don't know which one the article Kinnikuman is on, but both could be external links and refs. ANN is a RS right? I always see it referenced and in external links... --わwaらraうu Smile! 03:17, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

The article should be on both, with manga primary as its the primary work. See the main project page at the bottom for ANN's status as an RS.-- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 03:38, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

WSJ Infobox Image discussion

Following the model used for Shonen Jump and Shojo Beat, and our established consensus regarding infobox images for manga and anime series, the Weekly Shōnen Jump article's infobox uses an image of its first issue cover. Another editor is questioning the use of this image instead of a more modern one. I've argued for keeping the first issue cover, and noted that a newer cover might be appropriate with a more detailed history section discussion its later cover redesign, but the other editor still feels the infobox should have a more contemporary modern image. As a note, the article did once have a more modern cover, from 2004,[13] but it was removed and the first cover moved up into the infobox per the reasons already stated. Additional views might be useful as we are sort of going in circles now with just two of us doing the discussion. Talk:Weekly Shōnen Jump#More recent cover? is where its at. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 07:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I dug through the archives of this page and of WT:MOS-AM but I can't find that consensus. It might be useful to point the editor (and us for that matter) to the previous discussion on why the first cover is preferred. -- Goodraise (talk) 08:52, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Doh, my brain no worked yesterday. Discussion linked, it was on the infobox talk page. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 14:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)