Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anthroponymy

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WikiProject Anthroponymy (Rated Project-class)
WikiProject icon This page is within the scope of WikiProject Anthroponymy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the study of people's names on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
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Thanks. — Headbomb {ταλκκοντριβς – WP Physics} 08:48, 15 March, 2009 (UTC)

Name page that is too long[edit]

Please comment at Talk:Abdur Rahman on what to do about this very long page. Ego White Tray (talk) 8:04 pm, 5 May 2013, last Sunday (5 days ago) (UTC−5)

WikiProject X is live![edit]

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Harej (talk) 16:56, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Bibi[edit]

I've cleaned up Bibi, but I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do with Bibi as a respectful title for women. There was a Title section there before, but that didn't really belong in the dab page it used to be or in the name page it is now. I'm wondering if there's an article that Bibi (disambiguation) could point to, or if anybody has any suggestions as to how to handle it. Clarityfiend (talk) 13:04, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Good work, thanks! I've started the separate page Bibi (title). – Fayenatic London 18:58, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Þorláksson[edit]

I just came across the article, "Þorláksson", which raises a couple of issues that I think this project should consider addressing, not just for that article but generally.

  1. The article calls Þorláksson a "surname", but goes on to say, correctly, that it's not a surname, but a patronymic. The name is Icelandic, and Icelandic society doesn't use surnames as such. Yet the article freely uses the term, and is even assigned to the category "Surnames". It's like treating "the Great" as a surname. It seems to me that all articles regarding Icelandic "surnames" should be revised so that they speak not of surnames but of patronymics.
  2. The title of the article uses the letter Þ, which is not a part of the Modern English language. It seems to me that the spelling of foreign names should be Anglicized when they use non-English letters, just as, for example, Russian, Hindi, and Japanese names already are, even when the foreign alphabet in question derives from the Roman, as the English alphabet does. Thus, the "Þorláksson" article should be entitled, "Thorlaksson", and should begin, "Thorlaksson (Icelandic: Þorláksson) is an Icelandic patronymic . . . ." Compare Hussein. J. D. Crutchfield | Talk 18:20, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
I agree with rendering the name "Thorlaksson" (or "Thorláksson," at least English speakers can be expected to recognize accent marks, as long as the unaccented version redirects to it). But I disagree about whether it's a surname. A surname, by definition, is any proper name borne by an individual in addition to his or her personal names (or "given" names if you prefer). It doesn't have to be hereditary. Most of today's patronymic surnames were originally not hereditary, but changed every generation that a son bore a different name from his father. Occupational surnames, place-name surnames, and others were subject to the same kind of changes. We may have become used to the idea of fixed surnames, but that doesn't mean that they have to be. P Aculeius (talk) 04:28, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
I disagree on both counts. There's nothing wrong with the term "surname" (see Information on Icelandic Surnames). As for the spelling, in theory all the listed men are all named Þorláksson in reliable sources, so that's the spelling we ought to use.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 00:46, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
I am in agreement with both P Aculeisu and Brianann MacAmlaidh on the matter of using "surname"; there is a precursor-relationship between patronymics and surnames and there is not a need to artificially segregate these. On the matter of the spelling ... I am in agreement with Jdcrutch and P Aculeius on the matter of using "Thorl[a|á]ksson" rather than "Þorláksson" in the English Wikipedia. In the Icelandic Wikipedia, though, using "Þorláksson" would be perfectly apprpropriate, as indicated by https://is.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=%C3%9Eorl%C3%A1ksson&title=Kerfiss%C3%AD%C3%B0a%3ALeit&fulltext=1 ; unfortunately, the Icelandic Wikipedia lacks an article on this patronymic ... which is understandable considering the small number of Icelandic-editors. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:57, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
@Ceyockey: Þorláksson is perfectly appropriate if reliable English-language sources use the spelling. That's what matters (see WP:ENGLISH: "If a particular name is widely used in English-language sources, then that name is generally the most appropriate, no matter what name is used by non-English sources"). So, what a foreign-language Wikipedia does has no bearing on us, and the language of the name itself has no bearing. Remember, Þorláksson is presumably the actual form of the name that these guys are known by. That's why the list shouldn't be renamed.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 01:33, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
The problem with keeping it at Þorláksson instead of Thorláksson is that the letter thorn hasn't been used for writing English for nearly a thousand years, and isn't familiar to most English speakers. Few readers can type it, and even fewer will expect to find the name under that spelling. Few readers will know how to pronounce it, either, even though it's the exact equivalent of the hard th sound (as opposed to the voiced dh usually spelled the same way, represented by the letter eth). Partly that's because Icelandic is the only language that still uses the letter. Note that the articles about such letters are very deliberately placed under thorn and eth rather than Þ or Ð, even though other letters represent their own articles.
English-language dictionaries and encyclopedias acknowledge the existence of the letters under those titles, and in articles about the alphabet, but they don't contain sections for words beginning with them, which are invariably rendered with th. If someone named Þorláksson is mentioned in English-language news media, the name will almost always be rendered "Thorláksson," and if his name appears in official documents written in any language other than Icelandic, it'll be as Thorláksson, because no other language uses the letter thorn or has it in their alphabetical filing system. Which raises another complication.
Where should names beginning with these letters be filed? I would place both within th, or if impractical before t, or after t, but might someone consider placing eth before or after e simply because that's how it's spelled when written out? Or, like computer code, would letters like this automatically come at the beginning of the alphabet, before a? With a whole string of other characters not used in modern English, like a second alphabet, with no definite number or list of letters? Or more logically at the end, after z, even though the same name can be and is normally rendered with th in English?
My recommendation is to begin the article with something like, "Thorláksson, in Icelandic, Þorláksson, is an Icelandic patronymic surname..." This makes all of these unresolved and probably unresolvable issues unnecessary. Simply use English orthography for the title and first instance of use, then point to the technical native spelling in the same sentence, so that it's clear it's not of inferior status to the English orthography. P Aculeius (talk) 14:45, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

See also Harðardóttir. How would an English-speaker, using a standard keyboard, search for these articles? J. D. Crutchfield | Talk 16:48, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I tried Hardhardottir but that didn't work... Hardardottir does though.Siuenti (talk) 16:55, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Strange, because /ð/ doesn't correspond to English /d/, as far as I know. J. D. Crutchfield | Talk 17:15, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
I presume the letter is a modified form of letter d. Another thing that should work but doesn't is Harthardottir. Siuenti (talk) 17:56, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Historically, the letter eth (/ð/) is indeed a modified letter /d/, but it represents the sound we write with /th/, as in /then/, /fathom/, and /bathe/, so I'd have expected "Harthardottir" to work; but it doesn't, as Siuenti discovered. J. D. Crutchfield | Talk 19:26, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Just to split hairs, eth (Ð, ð) is /dh/, as in the three examples you gave, while thorn (Þ, þ) is /th/, as in /three/, /thick/, and /bath/. In other words, it's the voiced version of the same sound, just as we render voiceless 'f' as /ph/ and voiced 'v' as /bh/. Not that it's a really important distinction; they didn't really use them consistently in early written English, frequently transposing them as they saw fit. Ultimately we didn't think that the distinction was important enough to keep two separate letters that weren't in the Roman alphabet! The same thing happened with Æ, which could be simplified as either A or E, depending on your preference... which is why we usually pronounce Æthelbert "Ethelbert," but "Æthelstan" usually becomes "Athelstan." Usually, I say, because the other forms occurred too, and nobody would be surprised to hear "Ethelstan." P Aculeius (talk) 20:09, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Oh, and since ð is a separate letter, it'll be counted as such and not as 'th'. That's why I think the article should be moved, and redirects used for alternate spellings of names like these using thorn or eth. I recommend that all article titles containing these letters be moved to titles using 'th', with the native spellings used as redirects, mainly because most English speakers can't type (and won't recognize) them. It's fine to place them prominently in the lead, but as article titles they create an accessibility issue. P Aculeius (talk) 20:15, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Redirects are easy to make, so I have made them for Harðardóttir. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 04:34, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Ester Ishtar[edit]

Not a half word to argue that more likely is Ishtar. 86.115.15.163 (talk) 10:32, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton/April 2015 move request[edit]

Greetings! A proposal has been made at Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton/April 2015 move request‎ to change the title of the article, Hillary Rodham Clinton to Hillary Clinton. This notification is provided because this proposal is of interest to this project. Cheers! bd2412 T 17:26, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Anthroponymy article needs work[edit]

Hello name experts. I noticed that the Anthroponymy article had no references, so I added some. However, in my relative ignorance of this subject I may have introduced error, so perhaps someone from this project could check my work. Thanks. —Anne Delong (talk) 12:11, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Anthroponymy page standards[edit]

The standards for pages which this WikiProject is concerned with have been proposed to be promoted to a formal part of the Wikipedia Manual of Style. An RFC has been running for a couple of days now and I suggest WikiProject members participate in that discussion. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anthroponymy/Standards#Proposed move to align with rest of MOS . --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 19:48, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Vlado[edit]

It looks like a decent list of people named Vlado could be created. There seem to be dozens with Wikipedia articles. Crispulop (talk) 13:36, 27 May 2015 (UTC)