Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation

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WikiProject Articles for creation (Rated Project-class)
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Centralized discussion
Proposals Discussions Recurring proposals
  • An RfC about whether or not the opt-in requirement should be removed from the enwiki edit counter.
  • A proposal to reimplement the Main Page with an alternative framework.
  • An RfC regarding changing the username policy to allow role accounts.
  • A discussion on ways to improve the "Today's featured article requests" system.

Note: inactive discussions, closed or not, should be archived.

Sorting Articles for Creation into categories for use by WikiProjects[edit]

I mentioned this in a section above but thought I'd make a dedicated section for discussing it. What do you think to asking article submitters to categorise their article such that they are automatically placed into a category which can be accessed by WikiProjects in order to generate a list of articles that members of that project will have the knowledge and interest in reviewing? My example above was someone writing an article about a video game is asked in the article wizard to choose from a drop down list 'What describes your article subject best?' for which there would be an option of 'Video game'. This would then add the category "Video game articles for creation" to the page, listable on the video game wikiproject page in the same way that AfDs or requested articles are. I could see this increasing the number of reviewers by making AfCs as integral to WikiProjects as AfDs for example. The other benefit would be allowing reviewers to find AfCs that interest them, rather than clicking random or sorting via date. Sam Walton (talk) 11:44, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

  • As part of the move to draft space, I have no problem with assisting new page creators to add appropriate WikiProject banners to the talk page, but this has been heavily discussed before and adding it to WT:AfC/ project space was consensually determined to be a bad idea. This seems to be one of this projects perennial proposals. — {{U|Technical 13}} (tec) 11:49, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
Ah, any chance you have a link to previous discussions on this? Sam Walton (talk) 11:58, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
I understand that there is a new search engine under development that will search within templates. When that comes into general use, Wikiproject members will be able to add a custom search to their pages that will find all submitted drafts that contain, for example, the word "Physics" or "Football". Right now they can search by namespace, but can't select active submissions from declined ones (unless this is something that has recently become available? I hope?). That would be a simpler solution for those projects that want to keep an eye on the queue. (Someone please add a link to info about the new search engine - I am not finding it right away.) —Anne Delong (talk) 12:37, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
@Anne Delong: Cirrus search? --Mdann52talk to me! 12:48, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
Hmmm... Mdann52. after looking at that page I am still uninformed. Is there a better explanation somewhere else? —Anne Delong (talk) 14:36, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
@Anne Delong:: try this mw:Extension:CirrusSearch.  —Mysterytrey 15:29, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
@Samwalton9:Question: So you want the newest editors who are using the training wheels of AFC to know the convoluted structure of our Category Hierarchy? I'm sorry but even as an adept Wikipedian, I still have difficulty figuring out which projects a article belongs to. In addition Mainspace categories are not supposed to be used on "drafts" so as to keep the category listings clean. In addition if we were to create a "Draft articles for Wikiproject X" category for each project we would have a balooning of categories that were used rarely leaving the tools that handle AFC submissions to cramble and create great lists of categories to ignore. Therefore the best solution is the WikiProject banner tagging on the talk pages and to allow tagging the talk page with the banner at any time. I did make a proposal that would help us categorize ones that were missed Hasteur (talk) 13:24, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
I don't see it being that difficult - a simple drop down list which has "Science, Biography, Organisation, Video game, Musician..." etc. is all that would be necessary, the category being added could be an automatic thing. The editor themselves wouldn't even need to know it was happening. Sam Walton (talk) 13:35, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
I don't see any real problem with adding Wikiproject banners; the members of the project can always just remove the banner if they feel it's inappropriate. Categories are another thing - endlessly complicated the subject of many discussions over time. The other problem, already mentioned above, is that readers of the encyclopedia, if they click on a category, would then be directed to pages which haven't been accepted into the encyclopedia and could have serious problems whith NPOV, accuracy, etc. —Anne Delong (talk) 18:14, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
If the "class=Draft" parameter would be properly implemented for all WikiProjects, instead of being optional and thus ignored by all except a handful of projects, we wouldn't even be discussing this issue. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 21:37, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
My issue is that there are so many WikiProjects and so many articles within said projects, I doubt anyone would even notice (the fact that there are articles out there without projects on them is a good hint at this). I suppose it's not a bad idea to look into, but a good reviewer should be able to add them to the correct projects, so I am a bit conflicted about allowing others to do something we already should be doing anyways. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 02:14, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Maybe give a shout-out in the Signpost article discussed above saying "Hey, we need your help, come to AfC and tag some articles that fall under your WikiProject!" Not only would this help bring down the backlog by getting some article reviewers back into it through their WikiProject, it'd also be a lot better quality coming through. Supernerd11 :D Firemind ^_^ Pokedex 02:40, 7 April 2014 (UTC)


overly aggressive wording[edit]

From one of the current templates: ". If it is rejected three times for the same reason, please do not submit the draft again, as it will constitute disruptive editing. Finally, leveling any accusations against the editor(s) who declined the submission may result in a block."

The first sentence is not policy, and should not be policy. Disruption isa deliberate attempt to harm the encyclopedia. What these people are doing is a nuisance, and in an indirect way harmful by wasting our efforts, but it is not intentionally disruptive. They are uninformed, or lack understanding, or lack competence, but that is not the same as disruption. An accusation of disruptive editing is the strongest thing we can say , and is unwarranted. We need to find a way of handling the problem, but this is not it.

Nor is accusing the reviewer necessarily disruptive or block-worthy. It is if it rises to the level of a legal threat, or a serious threat otherwise, or continues after warnings, but only then. (Just like anywhere else in WP), A contributor may quite reasonably accuse an reviewer of many things: ignorance, willfulness, lack of understanding of WP, not following guidelines, not being help, being rude, leaving unconstructive comments -- and so on, In my experience, about half of the comments of these natures given by the contributors probably have some justice to them. We do not enforce NPA anywhere else in WP except in the most extreme circumstances, and to threaten it here is inappropriate.

The entire direction of leaving these sort of wordings on the first decline of an article is wrong. AfC/draft was created because submitted article need improvement; a friendly approach is the best way of getting them approved, not a threatening one. Look at the hierarchy of warnings at its 4 levels. A statement about possible blocking is not appropriate at the beginning,. When someone makes threats, then they can be warned what will happen if they continue. Anyone too sensitive to deal with some degree of antagonism from people whose articles are rejected should not be reviewing articles. DGG ( talk ) 04:06, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

@DGG: I think Ktr101's purpose was to head off a great many of the nonsense "Why did you decline my submission?" postings that we get where it is clear that the advocate hasn't taken the time to try to understand the decline. I also see it as a opportunity to head off the "Accept my article or I will cause trouble for you" messages we get as well. Would this change be less agressive enough for you, but at the same time communicate that repeated submissions without improvement is not appropriate? Hasteur (talk) 12:55, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
  • I don't think the wording is strong enough. I think it should be 3 resubmissions without any improvement or change will be deleted and the editor may be blocked for disruptive editing. — {{U|Technical 13}} (tec) 15:04, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Very strongly agree with DGG I made similar comments on the template Talk page, before noticing this. The general principle of limiting the number of re-submissions available I think is a good one. It will motivate editors to make better-quality submissions knowing they have a limited number of tries and avoid entirely the situation of doing 20+ re-submissions. It should be easy to over-ride if there is evidence the editor is actually trying, but acts as a general rule-of-thumb to prevent excessive, repeat COI submissions made primarily under the hopes that a different reviewer will accept it or out of general futility. After the tries are expired, the submission can become ineligible for repeat submissions for a set amount of time (say 3 months) without threatening the user with a block. CorporateM (Talk) 15:34, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict)@Technical 13: The problem is that if we start making fiat policy like this, we're going to have outsiders come in and start dismantling all of AFC for the walled garden rules we've come up with. If you look at all the other warnings/cautions (short of the 4IM ones) they say "may" and not will. It gives the administrator the latitude to determine if the disruption rises to the level of deliberately hostile actions. As evidenced by DGG's remarks and CorporateM's remarks this change is bold, and now there's requests for reverting. I thought our purpose was to have a soft area where editors who aren't as familiar with WP policy get an opportunity to learn, not be outright threatened on their very first decline. Hasteur (talk) 15:36, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
  • "very first decline" isn't what it says, what it says is if you submit a draft, and it is declined, and you don't change or improve it and just resubmit it, and it is declined for the same reason, and you don't change or improve it and just resubmit it, and it is declined for the same reason, then this is disruptive and it may be deleted. I don't think that is all that outlandish and if it is declined with zero attempt to fix it three times and it is submitted again (we would be at a level four warning by now if it was elsewhere) then the wording should be strong. — {{U|Technical 13}} (tec) 15:42, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
  • I agree with CorporateM in this regard, and would also like DGG to know that what Hasteur and Technical said was spot on. During the last drive, I had over one hundred sections added to my talk page from users who had multiple questions, including what they could do to improve their submission, asking me to re-review their work, and even one user who went so far as to accuse me of being racist and misogynistic because I wasn't an expert in the field of pornography. Granted, I know that I invited those questions on my page by not being descriptive enough in some of my declines, but the no personal attacks thing was added because I was sick of having one user constantly go after me for telling them the truth about their submission. If anything, I would even be supportive of having a counter on the template that lets people know that the article in question has had multiple deletions on the target page, and is probably not going to get approved, especially if AFD was involved multiple times. I admit that the wording was not perfect, but the idea was to strengthen the rather vague wording that encouraged people to resubmit multiple times either in an attempt to game the system (which I admit worked because sometimes we would actually spot notability in obviously notable topics) or would have no clue what they needed to do and would submit because they had genuinely no idea what to do. In terms of Technical's argument about the three strikes policy, I avoided putting wording like that in there because we don't have a dedicated CSD policy for these sorts of things, and I would like to have one before we mention things like that there. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 15:53, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict)But the problem is that as soon as the first decline is executed, that language pops up. Making the subsequent declines more forceful in it's "Don't re-submit it" message would be nice, but if we're coding for an average case, we have to build for the "first decline case" untill we can detect how many declines have occured. Hasteur (talk) 15:59, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
I disagree with specifically limiting the number of reviews, although I agree that some submitters need to be warned not to waste others' time. Often we reviewers don't do a perfect job of explaining how a submission needs to be fixed. Perhaps another way of dealing with this problem would be to have an extra small but brightly coloured template which could be added by a reviewer via checkbox on repeated submissions with no improvement. That way, the warning wouldn't be in the regular decline templates, and wouldn't scare away first time submitters, but at the same time would save reviewers the effort of writing custom comments. —Anne Delong (talk) 16:01, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
The exact wording should be hammered out at Template:AFC submission/declined/sandbox. The other decline templates may also need some improvement to make them more understandable to new users, if we are expecting submitters to read and understand them. CorporateM (Talk) 16:06, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm as aware of the difficulties as anyone--I've been doing little else than dealing with editors of unsatisfactory articles or AfCs for many years now. CorporateM (talk · contribs), et al., it's not a matter of tweaking the wording. I do not think you will find any wording that fits all the circumstances,; the most we will be able to do is establish a basic framework for people to supplement, and the key thing about the template is that it must be easy to do do before placing. It's not just the number of repeated attempts, it's whether there is progress and the willingness to learn, with consideration given to the bad advice that may previously been given. I'm told (and I see for myself) that some paid editors simply resubmit the exact same thing many times in short order--the only rational explanation is they hope that the variation in reviewers' standards is so enormous their advertising will eventually get accepted. (My preferred way of dealing with this is not another decline, but G11, and I've once or twice had to also use protection.) This is very different from some good faith beginner trying to understand our many and quite confusing rules for RSs, where different reviewers may well interpret them differently. And this again is different from someone coming back in response to a G13 notice,and willing to make another try at it.
As said above, we should avoid hobbling ourself with rigid rules,or preemptory wording. We need reviewers to use judgement, and the central problem is to ensure that the reviewers are able to tdo that. No complicated series of templates or timelines can replace that. DGG ( talk ) 01:43, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
I definitely agree with the rigid rules point, but I think people are more supportive here because not everyone is an administrator, and not every administrator is going to accept what we'd CSD. Until then, we will be stuck just swatting people away, because not all of us have the power to stop people from submitting something ten times (which also brings up the idea of allowing for us to delete within the draft space, but that's another discussion for another day). Kevin Rutherford (talk) 05:22, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
  • I had another editor revert those changes (because I'm not a template editor or admin), because, for starters, since when was "rejected 3 times = blocked"? There's nothing in the blocking policy or the disruptive editing policy that says that.--Jasper Deng (talk) 07:15, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Actually, just to clarify: vandalism is a deliberate attempt to harm Wikipedia. Disruptive editing, on the other hand, is a pattern of editing over time that disrupts progress towards improving an article or building the encyclopedia. Disruptive editing need not be intentional for it to constitute disruptive editing, and good faith edits can still be disruptive. (For example, two edit warring users both want what they feel is best for the encyclopedia, but they are being disruptive by constantly reverting each other.) A submitter who submits something many times without even attempting to act upon the reviewer's concerns would be, in my opinion, disruptive editing. (Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Blinded Eyes is an example of this.) However, the current wording implies that if any submission is declined three times, there's no point in continuing work whatsoever. Imbaba Bridge is an example of an AFC submission that was declined thrice for the same reason, but eventually accepted (by User:DGG) because the issue of inadequate reliable sources was fixed. It is definitely possible for a submission to be accepted beyond three or even four declines, and the wording shouldn't be so foreboding. Sometimes, it is endlessly helpful to write a custom comment in addition to the default one. Doing so will actually save time in the future, if the comment is helpful enough. It also puts the tone of the decline at the discretion of the reviewer. (If you as a reviewer truly believe that there's no point in continuing work on a submission, then just say so in the custom comment. It takes minimal time to type.) Respectfully, Mz7 (talk) 02:51, 9 April 2014 (UTC), revised 03:00, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Proposal: A "Submission Timeout" process[edit]

Preamble: We want to give new editors as many opportunities to improve their submission as possible. To that end, eager editors who make trivial changes to improve the submission they are working on and rapidly re-submit the draft burn through the good faith of reviewers and a great many of the volunteers at AFC in addition to line jumping to get their pet project accepted. As such many volunteers have suggested that after a certain threshold of submitting that we have some way of taking hostile action with respect to the submission.

Proposed: We create a process where if a AFC submission has recieved N declined reviews in M time that has another AFC pending submission on it, that the pending submission template be taken off (and the requestor noted) the submission until X time has passed to give the user some more time to reconsider their submission. At the end of X time the AFC pending submission template will be re-added with the requestor noted at the time of removal.

Example: N being 3, M time being 14 days, X time being 30 days. If a review racked up 3 declined reviews in 14 days, the process would be authorized to remove the AFC pending submission template for up to 30 days. At the 30th day, the process would be authorized to add back the AFC pending submission template with the user who was on record as having submitted the template.

Discussion[edit]

Trying to compromise between all the groups here to make a decent way to reduce the wasted bandwidth that eager submitters with low chances of being accepted have. I propose this process first with the eye of implementing it as a bot process, but let's make sure we have the scope for the process right first. Hasteur (talk) 16:50, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

I think it may be more in line with not a bureaucracy and no firm rules if it wasn't a firm, prescriptive automated process, but something that is up to the good judgement of editors. In other words, offer reviewers the option of a semi-permanent 3-month decline and some guidelines on when to use it. It should be used when it seems repeat submissions are unlikely to be productive. As a general guideline, this is after three failed submissions that show no signs of improvement. OTOH, I reviewed an article on Drives Warehouse, where I would have used a semi-permanent decline on the very first review. They were never going to get anywhere close to notability and it's a waste of everybody's time to drag them through even 3 submissions. Editors can weigh each case individually. CorporateM (Talk) 17:13, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Support I think this option is definitely a good idea, and I look forward to seeing what it can do, as the last backlog definitely had its quirks, and I would like to have these fixed before we run the next one (which will probably inevitably occur next month at the rate we're going). Kevin Rutherford (talk) 18:11, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Per the comments below, I am changing my vote on this. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 19:28, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose I don't think a rate limit will work better than it has at WP:3RR. I'd rather have a timeout for each individual AfC, after which it will be deleted. If a user's AfC submissions are becoming disruptive, then it can be discussed at AN(I) and the user possibly blocked, but that should be on a case-by-case basis.--Jasper Deng (talk) 07:15, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
  • pointless what is to stop user creating a new user name and resubmitting slightly altered content - how do we sensibly handle that? --nonsense ferret 08:17, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Jasper Deng's argument above. (tJosve05a (c) 08:25, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Jasper Deng. Case-by-case is the best approach. Mz7 (talk) 22:13, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Proposal: B Semi-permanent declines[edit]

Preamble: AfC gets a lot excessive re-submissions on articles that will never be ready for article-space, either because the editor is not improving, the subject is hopelessly non-notable, or some other reason. Our templates are geared towards encouraging editors to re-submit, which is a nice thought, but often it is best for both the reviewer and the submitter to advise that it's not going anywhere and encourage them to stop re-submitting. When the submission has reached this point depends on a great many factors, such as if the re-submissions are improving, whether the submitter is putting forth a good-faith effort, and whether the article-subject is notable. We should politely encourage these editors to contribute somewhere else, on a subject that is notable or where they do not have a COI, where they are more likely to be productive.

Proposed: Reviewer A comes across an AfC submission on Joe Smith's mechanics shop. He adds a template that says something like "Please note articles are only allowed on businesses that meet the requirements at WP:CORP. Specifically, there must be at least two, in-depth profile stories in credible, independent sources. For example, a profile in The New York Times and another in a trade publication would pass. The sources should not be blurbs, press releases, press release reposts, brief mentions, quotes, executive appointments, etc. and the organization should be the subject of the articles. If you choose to re-submit, please show evidence that the business meets these requirements." Say the submitter is persistent and submits two more times, even though it's obvious they don't meet the requirements for an article. On the third try, a reviewer may use a semi-permanent decline template. "This submission does not meet Wikipedia's requirements and has been re-submitted several times without any sign of improvement. It has been locked for re-submissions for 3 months." There are no specific rules about when to use which template after X number of attempts, though some general guidelines may be developed.

Discussion[edit]

  • Oppose: This is no better than the above proposal. The only way to implement this is to full-protect the submission to keep it from being re-submitted which then causes the advocate for the submission to go to another "title" and start resubmitting it there (ex: Joe Smith is locked but Joesph Smith, Joe P. Smith, Joesph P. Smith, Joe Smith (industrial magnate), Joe P. Smith (industrial magnate) and so on are created to continue pushing the submission). We had to present a really good case for why high visibility templates needed a level of protection between Full and Semi and so Template-Editor protection was established. Creating yet another intermediate level of protection is going to be nigh impossible based on how much effort it took for the last request. I do support having some sort of "It is the viewpoint of this reviewer that without a substantial rewrite and improvement this submission will not be accepted. Please do not submit it any more" to indicate the firmer "No" than our current decline methods. If the submission gets put up again after that then it's disruptive editing and we can bring other sanctioning tools to bear. Hasteur (talk) 12:45, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
At that point they would be disruptive and administrative actions like a block would be more appropriate. I don't think the submission needs a formal administrative protection - just a message that says "please don't resubmit" If they continue submitting persistently after being instructed not to by multiple editors, an admin may be needed. CorporateM (Talk) 15:36, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Hasteur, and the fact that I think we should consider more forceful wording over protections right now, just to see how it will do. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 15:03, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

General comment[edit]

As long as people can still create articles directly in main space, I don't see any particularly compelling reason we can't place limitations on frivolous AfC submissions. By the time they've gotten around to several submissions, they are autoconfirmed, if logged in, right? Just wanted to address the specific concern that if we limit AfC then "outsiders" will want to tear it down. Gigs (talk) 21:03, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Double undelete[edit]

I have now noticed for the first time a case of requesting a g13 undelete twice with Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Henry Behrens. Our author User talk:Bekittrell did absolutely nothing after the first undelete request to the contribution. I have not undeleted, but instead asking for a convincing reason for it to come back. So do people think a g13 undelete request should be honoured after a previous one with no improvements? Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:21, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

I see no obvious harm in assuming good faith and doing so. A third time and I'd be less inclined to say yes, but for now I don't think it's a huge issue. Sam Walton (talk) 21:42, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
  • I'd say no go without a convincing reason (like offering what they have for new material to improve it with). — {{U|Technical 13}} (tec) 21:51, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
There is no real harm to it, but there is no real point to it either. Just look at the timeline:
  • 9 August 2011: The page is created as a userpage.
  • 13 March 2012: The page pretty much reached its current form.
  • 18 January 2013: The page is moved to AFC space (According to the log by editor request)
  • 5 September 2013 (05:07): Page is tagged for removal. A few hours later it is removed. A few hours later a request is filed and it is restored.
  • 7 April 2014 (04:01): Same scenario. Page is tagged for removal. A few hours later it is removed. A few hours later a request is filed and it is restored.
Between the removals the page was not edited at all, and the editor himself did hardly edit at all either during those months. Actually, aside from a few minor differences the page is identical to User:Bekittrell/sandbox. Long story short (Sorry for the length, the page history seemed relevant enough to share) i would say the page could just be restored to the users sandbox and remain there. I doubt there will be to much activity on the page though, but if its outside of AFC space it won't be tagged or removed. Excirial (Contact me,Contribs) 22:16, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
I tend to think that the user is going to make the effort. The user had the 30 day warning from my bot that it was in danger of being deleted, got the notice that the page had been deleted, made the trivial effort to request G13 refund, let it go 6 months without editing again, got the 30 day warning from the bot again, got the notice that the page had been deleted again, and now makes the trivial effort to get the page back again. I wish that Admins would exercise a little more skepticism when responding to G13-Refund requests. If the user can't be bothered to make effort to fix a page after it was on notice for 30 days as being eligible for G13, why should we expect them to make the effort to improve after a refund. Hasteur (talk) 23:34, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Some do improvements however. I will have many of these on my watch list so if there is interest I will give examples. In this case I will await a response from the author, since I have also asked on their talk page, they should be alerted. Actually they have now responded at User_talk:Bekittrell#Undeletion for those that want to read the reason. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:27, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Counting my G13 undeletes since 28 Dec 2013: 69 with no improvement, 14 have been edited. So about 13% are getting some attention. 87% of people just want to store the page without improvement. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 09:34, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
So help me, if that submission shows up on the G13 eligible list again I'm going got force the question to make Bekittrell put their money where their mouth is in terms of wanting to improve the article by nominating it for MFD to force the community to decide if we need to keep this. I'm tired of petitioners for G13-Refund getting to kick the issue of deletion down the road 6 months while keeping their submission of questionable acceptance on WP's servers. Hasteur (talk) 13:09, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Here is another double undelete request: Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Jim Lawrence that was requested a couple of days beforehand. Admin (freerangefrog) also declined a second refund. Wikipedia:Requests_for_undeletion/Archive_125 Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:18, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

This is all the more reason to check through the G13 eligible drafts and nominate those which can be deleted for other reasons. For example, if a submission was "unambiguous advertising" and hasn't been improved toward NPOV for six months, can't we then nominate it as G11 and have it stay gone? —Anne Delong (talk) 04:17, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Here's another thought: What if there were "diminishing returns" - 6 months the first time, then 2, then 1, then no go? —Anne Delong (talk) 04:17, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
I have seen others suggest such ideas here before. Hasteur's point that the contributor actually gets an extra two warnings with a month's notice from the bot means its more like 6 + 1 + 6 + 1 months already. But if there is a consensus then I will follow the 6 2 1 pattern, but it may be too much for some undeleters! Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:44, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
In my suggestion I wasn't counting the bot warnings, so I guess I should have said 7, 3, 2 or 6+1+2+1+1+ 1, but I was referring to the length of time since the last edit before the page is tagged for G13. Right now the bot waits six months or so, but I'm sure that it could be modified to pick a smaller amount of time if the last edit was a G13 refund. That way the requester would at least have to make some minimum effort to keep it off the list. —Anne Delong (talk) 12:39, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict)FYI : You don't have to wait for the bot's operation at the 6 months + 30 days mark to do something about the pages that are eligible for G13. The 6 month mark is "This page is eligible for G13 and can be speedy deleted right now" The 30 days mark is the good faith offering so that we don't get accused of being heartless that was designed primarily as a throughput limiter back when we had ~30k pages that qualified under G13. You could go through the G13 eligible category right now and nominate every single one of the pages, but I see the G13 eligible category as the danger zone for those who want to pull out troublesome ones. The bot shouldn't pull out any of the other CSD criteria and do nominations on them because practically all other CSD have some component of judgement call on them. G13 is a perfectly objective criteria: Either the last edit was over 6 months ago and it bears the {{AFC submission}} banner or it doesn't. I think the "diminishing returns" function should be expressed as a function of Admin hard sell when the refund request comes in. Admins who work Refund should be given advice that if a submission shows up more than once for G13-Refund, they should question the refund requestor how they intend to fix the problem. Unforthcoming/unsatisfactory answers belong to the decline pile and good answers be restored with the understanding that if the page shows up on G13 again, there's going to be less good faith for a new G13-Refund being fufilled. Hasteur (talk) 12:49, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
@Anne Delong: The problem with reducing the threshold if the page had been previously G13ed is that we would have to secure a consensus that repeat G13s get a shorter period for eligibility, having to change the AFC submission template to calculate if the page had been G13ed in the past to determine if the page is already G13 eligible, and a new BOTREQ for a significant change to the functionality of the nominating/notifying bot. That's a lot of work to change in favor of the Admin "hard sell" on the refund page. Hasteur (talk) 12:55, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Hasteur, all true; I was trying to put forth an alternate solution that wouldn't put more work on our already busy admins, but I don't have a strong opinion as to how the refunds are dealt with. It seems to me that there are two kinds of submissions that would frequently be showing up as re-refund requests (1) promotional material that would be deleted in mainspace. IMO, six months should be enough time to de-spam these; maybe they should be deleted as advertising rather than G13, and then refund wouldn't be an issue. (2) non-notable topics that the editors are hoping will become notable in the future, and sometimes they do, and at least the drafts are not a detriment to the encyclopedia in the meantime. However, some submitters are too optimistic about this. —Anne Delong (talk) 15:02, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Sri Lanka Ellaya[edit]

Resolved: MFD started

I'm going nuts over this one! User:Sri Lanka Ellaya has been declined 4 times and they still do not provide any references. The scope of the article seems pretty solid, but I don't find any supporting evidence. It appears to be similar to baseball. Perhaps it is just a joke, but given the work put into the article, I sort of doubt it. So how do I get through to this person that there needs to be some sort of referencing to go with the article? The Ukulele Dude - Aggie80 (talk) 20:26, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I did finally find a blog through a link. [SriLankaElle Blog]The Ukulele Dude - Aggie80 (talk) 20:45, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
@Aggie80: Yeah... They submitted it again, so I followed through on your warning. Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Sri Lanka Ellaya is now a thing. Please feel free to contribute to the MFD discussion. Hasteur (talk) 21:01, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

So, where do we go from here?[edit]

With the potential of another backlog drive being opened next month, we might as well begin discussing what we have learned from Makro and Belshay's contributions. Clearly, we have unintentionally encouraged a system where editors are allowed to game the system to their own advantage, which Makro keeps on reminding us, so I was wondering if anyone would like to set out some rules to help prevent these situations from happening in the future. Based on what was posted above, people do not seem adverse to setting up a proportion limit, but I am interested to see what others say so that we don't have this kind of lengthy drama in the future. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 04:05, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm not really entirely comfortable with the competitive nature of drives - it detracts from the real reason AFC exists, we're here to help newbies, not for the brownie points. If giving away free cookies and medals is the only way we can attract sufficient reviewers them we need to rethink the entire basis of how we operate here. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:29, 16 April 2014 (UTC)